6:36pm: Pittsburgh director of sports medicine Todd Tomczyk indicated Velasquez was likely to miss 11-12 months, writes Justice delos Santos of MLB.com. He won’t been throwing until around November. Obviously, that’ll cut into the righty’s availability for the first half of the 2024 campaign.
3:55pm: Pirates right-hander Vince Velasquez has undergone season-ending elbow surgery, reports Jason Mackey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.
Velasquez, 31, was signed by the Pirates this winter to a one-year, $3.15MM deal. The club was likely hoping that he could provide a stable source of veteran innings, alongside fellow offseason signee Rich Hill, as they also gave auditions to younger pitchers like Mitch Keller, Roansy Contreras, Johan Oviedo and Luis Ortiz.
The plan worked fairly well for a while, as Velasquez got out to a strong start. He made eight starts for the Bucs with a 3.86 ERA, striking out 22.8% of batters faced against an 8.6% walk rate. He was placed on the injured list in early May due to elbow inflammation and came back later that month. However, he departed his return start after just two innings due to renewed discomfort in that elbow.
It was reported last week that Velasquez would eventually be moved to the 60-day injured list, which seemed to point to a significant absence. That has now come to fruition with today’s news that he required some sort of serious surgery. It’s not clear exactly what sort of surgery took place, but it will apparently end his 2023 and perhaps impact his 2024 as well if it were something as serious as Tommy John surgery, though further details will undoubtedly come out in time.
It’s surely a frustrating development for both the player and the team. Velasquez has been fairly inconsistent in his career, with his ERA oscillating between a low of 4.12 in 2016 and a high of 6.30 in 2021. Though it was a fairly small sample, his 2023 was on pace to potentially be his strongest yet, though it now appears to be done. He will be a free agent this winter, though the level of interest he receives will be affected by the severity of the surgery and his health going forward.
For the Bucs, this will be a blow to their rotation depth as they are hovering in the playoff race for the first time in years after a lengthy rebuild. They are currently 32-29 and holding the last Wild Card spot in the National League. If they manage to stay afloat in that race, the diminished depth will present them with a challenge. Velasquez also would have been a logical trade candidate if they fell back in the race given his impending free agency, though that won’t even be a call the front office has to make anymore.
2 days after his 31st birthday is rough man. I wish Vinny the best in his recovery
Out for a year is the latest update.
One day this dudes gonna be really good. Just not today. Or tomorrow. But someday soon I suppose . Cue Bosstones
Vince was a changed pitcher. Huge loss. With him and Keller healthy they had a decent chance. With him, JT and Burrows all out for season playoff or even above 500 odds aren’t good. Keller is a top rotation arm. Oviedo could be mid. But after that its Rich Hill and 2 guys that are backend starters or relievers. Only hope and dream Priester is mlb quality or hang around until trade deadline.
Their organization is doing something right with the pitching coaching and scouting, for sure.
It’s the place to go if you are worth less than 5 million and would like to make more $ next year.
yes. agree pitching depth may be the downfall of the pirates this year. really need to find away to move some of the positional depth in AA and AAA to get at least an innings eater.
Agreed. Nick Gonzales is a guy that screams to be traded for pitching help
This is not the year to trade a prospect like Gonzales so early.in his career for what would most likely only be a marginal gain, we are still in need of positions players this team isn’t stacked, have some solid guys but not anything to make you think trading Gonzalez
A 2b only with strike out problems. Easy to part with but shouldn’t bring back much. Even if another team had a solution they would want to buy low still.
I don’t see any world in which Gonzales would be a better player than Castro and with Bae it’s probably a push because they are opposites. I’d trade him if the right opportunity comes along. A team I really have interest in is the Tigers who are light on hitters. They had young pitching but it’s all mostly injured. Maybe take a chance on Turnbull coming back healthy or trade for someone like Wentz or even an injured guy like Skubal or Manning.
Bring on Quinn Priester!
Throw slider 40% of time and hope you don’t need TJ
“Sweeper”
It’s a gd slider man. Ffs
It’s a whirly.
I don’t know what his mix of pitches looked like this season compared to previous, but I wonder if his work with Oscar Marin had much to do with his injury. For example, if he increased his use of the slider and caused increased strain on the elbow, did that lead to higher risk of injury
I don’t think anyone knows.
My recommendation is less meaningless innings. Only throw enough to make highschool team. Only throw enough to get scholarship. Only throw enough to get drafted. Only through enough to develop mlb pitcher. Shouldn’t even sniff 100 innings let alone go over unless it’s for state championship college world series. Too much practice and worthless innings.
Due to his age, it was time to do the “old man” style of pitching. More breaking balls and less fastballs that barely touch 94 mph. It’s the logic of this game today. Many guys like AJ Burnett, Justin Verlander, Clayton Kreshaw, and others, lose velocity on their fast ball and learn how to pitch differently with more breaking pitches. It helped all their careers by another 4-5 years. Vince is in that time frame and maybe his arm is too fragile. Or maybe it’s our pitching coach. First it was JT and then it’s Vince. Not to mention the 5 other guys in the minors who are not finishing the year because of arm injuries that require some sort of surgery. This, “lean back and let it rip” mentality the coaching staff has on these pitchers, is going to cause more issues as time goes on. They want guys to throw 98+ mph and throwing breaking pitches like sliders, sinkers, screwballs, and/or curves. Throwing as hard with off speed, breaking pitches, puts so much strain on the arm. It’s only going to get worse before it gets better. By then, I hope they finally teach these pitchers how to pitch and conditioning their arms properly.
That sucks for him. He was pitching so well to start the season too. Hope he recovers well.
Hard to gauge the Pirates and even more difficult to get a vibe about their pitching. That 20-8 run had us singing the pitching coach’s praises but during this 7-19 return to earth, well, we’re back to being hopeful for a 75 win season
VV had turned it around this year and the loss really hurts in itself, but with Keller, Oviedo, Contreras, Ortiz getting hit hard and struggling with control, it’s even worse
I guess what’s even more disappointing is the fact that there really isn’t anyone who’s ready on the farm.
I’ve been saying there are no good options where the batting order and this anemic offense are concerned but wow, this compounds things
Shouldn’t be anyone available on the farm. Cherington took over a weak farm. Didn’t have elite trade chips that would bring back elite pitching prospects. Took position players with all 3 1st round picks. Drafted mostly highschool pitching. College arms were floor over ceiling. Majority of pitching is in A ball.
But yet, Keller, Oviedo, Contreras, and Ortiz represent a nice collection of young arms even if they haven’t gained enough consistency to this point.
3 of those could be in the pen a year or 2 from now. 1 I would bet on. 2 is reasonable.
Keller only has 2 years after this. Extend or trade is needed.
I also forgot about Brubaker. He’s another nice arm who was making solid progress as a pitcher before the injury. I think overall the Pirates are doing a nice job building a staff even if their pitchers don’t have the pedigree of some.
I’d like to agree with you but again, how do you gauge it all? Let’s leave Keller out of it for a second and say he’ll turn it around
But where the rest are concerned, it’s a matter of determining what’s real and what’s not. I kind of like Oviedo but for every good start, there is another one—or two—where he struggles. People keep talking about Ortiz and it’s the same story. And with Contreras, it’s more like one good start and then he falls off the cliff
Have to agree with Dream here that it’s doubtful most of these guys will end up being starters
And I have to wonder what compelled BC to basically bypass pitchers via the draft. Maybe he thought he had a little more at his disposal than what was actual.
I guess I’m looking at Keller and Brubaker as examples. Both guys looked pretty rough at first and took a while to hone their craft. But the Pittsburg coaches eventually helped them get better. If they can work with these other guys, get them to continue to improve their consistency, there is potential for an impressive staff. It may not turn out that way, but I’d rather be working with young, live arms, than washed up retreads.
As far as the draft, there seems to be a school of thought among some teams that hitters are easier to project and develop, probably because they are injured less. Baltimore is taking a similar approach in amassing position players in the draft and looking elsewhere for pitching. The Astros have done the same thing. Kansas City and Detroit have taken the opposite approach.
Don- I think that you are a Cardinals fan.They always seemed to me to have a consistent pipeline in bringing a good pitcher up every year.But many ended up getting hurt just like many teams.
The Pirates for once do have some home grown pitchers that are fairly good.But as you know if you do not have the big pipeline that the Rays,Guardians,and Dodgers have,or the money that the Yankees and Mets have,you are apt to quickly run into the situation that the Pirates are in.
We both have to be concerned with the Reds.They have three young position players and three young starters who have the chance to be very good.For some reason their rebuilding period has not lasted four or five years.
I feel very badly for VV as I have seen him struggle for many years living nearby Philadelphia.This was the longest period,albeit only six weeks,that he has attained a good consistency during his whole career.
Don-I think that BC’s plan is to sign one or two “ washed up retreads” every year.
He understands that for whatever reason,the Pirates farm system,at least at this point,is not good enough to produce two or three pitchers a year.
Remember that you basically need almost twice the original roster amount with all the injuries and potential poor performances.
I give BC credit.He is four for four in this regard,and has used them for trade chips for the last two years.
Turn it around…..one bad start for Keller and you say he has to turn it around. No wonder why people hate pirate fans.
Mendoza-
A little miscommunication here. I wasn’t referring to VV when I mentioned washed up retreads. I wasn’t referring to anyone in particular. I’m just saying it is encouraging to have good young arms even if they aren’t finished products. It’s better to have players with potential upside as opposed to scouring the wire hoping to milk 10-12 more good starts out of Madison Bumgarner or Dallas Keuchel. I completely understand why the Pirates sign guys like VV or Rich Hilll. You can’t have enough depth. I wish the Cardinals had signed either guy.
I agree about the Reds. They are coming together quickly. I think the days of the NL Central being the punching bag are close to over.
I should have worded it differently.
I did not get the impression that you were being negative.
I think that we both agree that the farm systems that produce a couple of good pitchers a year are the best.If they produce them every year,then there is much less need to get veterans to augment the staff,even though to some extent it can be helpful,especially to a young staff.
It is very difficult to stash decent veteran pitchers for depth.In my view baseball today is hurt by the constant attrition caused by serious injuries to pitchers.
I am sorry for any confusion.I have always admired the Cardinals for being a well run ball club.
I am concerned that Kepler’s recent outings have gotten into his head and his pitching as of late reflects that
Kepler???? You mean Keller….and again 1 or 2 struggling starts doesn’t mean something is wrong….again no wonder why people hate pirate fans…. especially cornholer and the moaner 3
the great cornholio
Buuba-I do not get the impression that others hate Pirate fans,unless you mean the trolls that sometimes visit the site.
I have been impressed by the comments made by a number of fans from other teams that are happy that the Pirates are playing better.
And for the record Keller has had three bad games in a row.I think that he was pitching so well before that that it is a very substantive change,but agree with you that it could be temporary.Let’s hope so as long time Pirate fans.
Keller m”@ron
it’s called a misspelling
Yes and I see you have done a lot of auto correcting…..so the word for you is you are an irrelevant m”@ron
you’ve been muted Bubba
and that misspelling was deliberate
Cornholer? Nice one, Buuba. Must have taken you hours to come up with that one
I like Keller and think he has upside
Problem is, again, it’s hard to gauge this team and its individual players. Beyond Reynolds, who is settling in as basically an above average player who is in the .280 range, really, you just look for consistency
Since Keller is not in the conversation with guys like Scherzer or even Alcantara, yes, it’s a concern. Anyone who’d look at his early season dominance and then his last 3 starts and say otherwise is foolish. And anyone who has watched Pirates prospects on the mound and call the starts just a hiccup must think a guy like Taillon will someday be a Cy Young winner.
I get that you like to the glass as half full and enjoy being a contrarian for many here, but you’re embarrassing yourself yet again
We’re all fans and most of us see a big improvement over the past couple seasons. But most of us still see this team as 75 win club and not the competitor that keeps being pushed
I can live with 75 wins. I’d be ecstatic over a .500 team. Like many here, I just don’t wear the rose colored glasses you do
Corn-Regarding your first sentence,Buuba did not say that,Dream did.
My guess is that he meant it in jest.
Yeah. One guy says “cornholio” and the other “cornholer” Funny stuff, I guess. As a tired, old dude maybe I’ll try to change my name to one of those. Thanks
Sorry.I missed Buuba’s earlier post.
I have two names for you.
Site friend and young man.
Well oldmaid 3, after “Kepler’s” performance today. He proved you wrong. As I said every good pitchers will go through a funk. Seems like your in a funk with corngobbler
Agreed and back at you, Mendoza. No problem. No anger toward anyone here. Great site
Glad to see Keller shake off a couple bad starts and McNeil’s homer today
Huge 9 games coming up
Yes he’s the cornocopia of cornholio
Well corngobbler, Keller pitched a gem today. Fascinating how one, who knows nothing, said Keller was having control problems.
News flash, all good pitchers go through a tough 1 or 2 game bad streak.
Gobble gobble
I don’t know who said he was having control problems, but ok
You missed the point of the earlier post. It’s tough to gauge the team and many of the players. You’re lumping Keller in as a “good” pitcher is in line with that.
I say he has potential to be a very good pitcher for years. I would like to see him establish himself via consistency and like to think he’s matured, but I also remember that up until last August, he was an up and down pitcher, at best
And in regards to your comment about “knowing nothing,” gee, if you only knew my background as a former pitcher and coach/manager
But then, that would entail you thinking like an adult, showing some courtesy and respect and having an appreciation for other fans here, whether you agree with their insights or not
Instead, calling people names is your approach. How classy of you
I’m not impressed with your self analysis. Keller has been consistent for a year now. Half of last year and this year.
He’s going to be one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball.
So for your, so called background, you sure do criticize a lot.
And maybe you can mute me like the old maid 3 did.
I couldn’t be more happier. Take a few shots of Geritol.make you a new man.
For the record:
-I couldn’t care less about whether you are impressed or not. I gave you background and context, that’s all
-Keller has *not* been consistent for a year. He found all the parts last August and has put it together thus far
-I hope he does become a top 5 pitcher.
-I criticize and I laud. I’ve given Marin a great deal of credit to that end
I think they have a good bullpen
-I also think they have a lot of trouble coming if Keller is the only consistent starter, which is what it appears to be
I’m not blaming Marin for this but only a fool looks at guys like Oviedo, Ortiz, Hill and “starter in waiting” and feels good about anything more than 75 or 80 wins
– They have an anemic offense that struggles to score runs. They have 100 games left.
-I do like their fight this year. I credit Cutch, Santana and Hill for this. They undoubtedly are team leaders
I’ve written all of this repeatedly along with the idea that a 75 win season would be ok with me. .500 would be ecstasy
I find it hilarious that a guy who wears rose colored bifocals sets up shop on a message board where discourse is a given and hurls epithets at individuals at posters whose opinion he doesn’t like Normally, I’d have to go to a junior high to find someone as eloquent. Or a local bowling alley.
And mute you? Why? You are like an occasional fly at a picnic. An annoyance if I allow it otherwise, just an inconsequential pest that eventually goes away
Armchair moron
Sounds like you need a colonoscopy. But the doctors can’t decide what end to perform the procedure on.
Call up the Tigers and grab Lorenzen or Erod. Time to spend some of your hard earned prospect capital. Won’t come cheap though. Did I hear Gonzales name earlier
ERod is on the IL.
He’ll be back before the trade deadline. He was cleared to play catch.
The Bucs aren’t likely to trade any prospects this year as they have learned their lesson after the Chris Archer debacle
I would not mind the pirates trading for Eduardo given his control I would be okay with giving up a decent prospect that is a few years out. Pirates are going to need to sign a decent pitcher for 2024. That would save the frustration. Probably would be to costly in talent though.
I also would not mind Lorenzen if the pirates are still in it at the break. I give them a 40/60 shot at being around .500 which maybe good enough for the division. Lorenzen will not take much to get either being a rental.
Still i do not think either will happen, still a ways away from the deadline.
Most trades won’t happen until last week. Most last 2 days. Pirates could be sellers themselves by then.
Bummer, he was having a nice bounceback season.
Best wishes for a successful recovery, Double V.
The difference between Scherzer and Velasquez ERA is miniscule, the difference in pay is 40 million dollars lol. People say Velasquez was having a good season but saying Scherzer is having a bad season. The determining factor is? Money, lol. Perspective is always key.
And expectations
Take away vinces last outing when he came back with no elbow and it’s even better. Legit. He looked fantastic. Lost a lot of $.
Tough for Velasquez as he was actually having a decent season. Maybe the Pirates bring him back and he can take the mound in the middle of next season
Zach Plesac, anyone? DFA’d by the Guardians earlier this week. I’d take a shot and offer Cleveland a low level prospect as I don’t think he reaches the Pirates on waivers.
Not sure Priester is ready and after that the next option is to stretch out the likes likes of Bolton, Chatwood, De Jong, Mlodzinski …… the cupboard really is that bare!
Terrier- Several of us have mentioned that already.
I am hoping that the Pirates are in the mix for Plesac as several teams may be interested in trading for him.They could give up a decent minor leaguer for him as he has three options left and is controllable.It seems to me that something would have happened to him by now if he was not wanted.
No mention of Plasec on this MLBTR thread, but I don’t doubt he’s been talked about elsewhere on the web.
Regarding the discussion about Nick Gon, Castro, Bae, etc. earlier in this chat, I’m of the opinion that Marcano looking competent at SS makes him untouchable while Bae has the benefit of elite speed and CF def. So for me, when Cruz returns, Castro and/or Mathias are expendable along with Gonzales who’s prospect status is fast disappearing due to K’s at AAA as DreamGM states above.
I think BC has his work cut out cashing in on this excess of 2B/SS tweeners, but hopefully can acquire some kind of back end starter in the coming weeks.
*** edit
Also Triolo is back healthy and has been playing various positions at Indy – so something’s got to give!
Mathias is a waiver claim so he will be sent down first.
Bae needs improvement on defense as they expect him to play two dissimilar positions and learn how to play CF in the ML’s.If they are going to keep him there he needs to go to the Instructional League after the season is over.
I have not seen much from Gonzalez although he was hurt last year.
I have always thought that Bae and Marcano could play here.They just need experience.
BC has players in AAA that are excess who are fairly good AAA players with lots of control.
In my mind Triolo is extra if Hayes stays hitting like Rogers Hornsby.
Hayes looked more like his old self today swinging at pitches wide of the plate and with no discipline
Funny how the lineup yesterday banged out 14 runs then Shelton micromanaged in today’s game, changing the lineup and they only scored 1
This one is for Bubbles
Conor Joe has no business batting 3rd