As reported by Evan Drellich, Dennis Lin, and Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic, the Padres took out a $50MM loan in September to address “short-term cash flow issues” and cover their player payroll, among other expenses. That $50MM figure is particularly interesting, considering a previous report from Kevin Acee of The San Diego Union-Tribune that the team is hoping to reduce payroll by about $50MM in 2024.
The Padres ran a top-five payroll in the sport for a second straight season in 2023, yet they failed to make the playoffs, finishing two games back of a Wild Card berth. Evidently, strong ticket sales (only the Dodgers had higher attendance) weren’t enough to convince ownership to double down in hopes of better results next year. The fact that the team needed to take out a sizeable loan – and that they missed out on postseason revenue – might explain why.
Ultimately, however, it’s hard to say whether this news is an indication of trouble for the Padres or simply a standard practice of running a baseball team. The reporters from The Athletic note that MLB teams “commonly” take out lines of credit, and it could be seen as a good sign that the Padres were deemed suitable for such a sizeable loan in the first place. To that point, the lender was reportedly willing to provide as much as $100MM.
Then again, it’s concerning that the team needed such a large sum of money so late in the season; it’s hard not to read into that as a sign of poor financial planning. Indeed, the news of the loan is said to have taken some MLB officials by surprise.
For what it’s worth, it was the league’s head office that prevented the Padres from taking all $100MM they were offered by their lender. That could be a sign that the team is in real financial trouble – the commissioner doesn’t generally allow teams to take on more debt than they can afford – but it could also be a broader indication that other owners simply don’t approve of San Diego running such a high payroll. After all, the Padres took many by surprise with their aggressive spending over the past few years, showing that a so-called “smaller market” team can indeed compete with the financial giants from New York and L.A. As the reporters from The Athletic point out, some owners consider the Padres’ spending to be reckless – and commissioner Rob Manfred has implied he feels the same way.
Nonetheless, several team officials repeated the idea that this loan was nothing more than business as usual, whether speaking on behalf of the team or not. Padres CEO Erik Greupner said in a statement that the team “established a capital plan for 2023” and that they operated “in accordance with that plan.” On a similar note, an anonymous team official told Drellich, Lin, and Rosenthal, “We anticipated we may need [the loan] at some point this year. We’re not in crisis.”
Another anonymous official told The Athletic, “The levels of payroll that we’ve been at have probably reasonably been in excess of what we could have supported, but it was part of the larger plan.”
Still, the Padres’ financial situation is something to monitor going forward. If temporarily spending more than they could afford on player payroll was always part of the team’s master plan, then it remains to be seen how the rest of the plan will play out. This past season certainly didn’t go as expected, and several of the team’s top contributors could become free agents in the coming days. It will be challenging to fill those holes while significantly reducing payroll.
In other words, it’s hard to imagine the on-field product improving next season without suitable replacements for Blake Snell, Josh Hader, and Seth Lugo (pending his opt-out decision) – and even more so if the team trades Juan Soto. Unfortunately, that might be the only way they can reduce payroll by such a large amount. Per roster resource, the team already has an estimated 2024 payroll of $190MM and an estimated luxury tax payroll of $242.9MM. Soto alone is projected to make $33MM in arbitration, per MLBTR’s Matt Swartz.
Saint Nick
Yikes! Time to pay the piper.
pohle
looks like a massive yikes. they were really banking on that playoff revenue hitting. cant help that bally has no money either
GASoxFan
To hear some pads fans Bally going under was the best thing that could’ve happened, and, the per user fees through MLB monthly distribution was going to bankroll top tier riches for the franchise.
Turns out, less subscribers and revenue than the unknowing claimed.
This one belongs to the Reds
We were told by certain parties here that the payroll cut rumors after the Bally’s fiasco were full of excrement.
Guess we know who was now.
websoulsurfer
DSG missed one $10 million payment to the Padres, the 3rd one of the season that was for June. MLB gave the Padres 80% of that money. The PAdres were out $2 million.
The Padres had renegotiated deals and were back on the air on Cox, Spectrum, AT&T, DIRECTV, and FUBO the very next day. Those were all the same carrier that they were on before DSG defaulted. The difference was, now the Padres were getting 100% of the carriage fees for their broadcasts.
They then were able to start selling packages on MLB.tv just for the Padres that were not blocked out locally. Within a month they had sold 250k of those at $19.99 per month. Even if MLB took 20% of that for production fees, that is still $4 million per month.
The Padres lost little or nothing when DSG defaulted and they were obviously prepared for it happening because they didn’t spend a single day off the air.
That you are assuming that a loan taken out in mid-September had anything to do with TV money is being totally unknowing.
SODOMOJO
The hell is wrong with you?
websoulsurfer
What is wrong with you? Did I say ANYTHING that wasn’t true? Nope. ON THE MONEY.
SODOMOJO
“That you are dumb enough to think”
But you NEVER read before you comment”
What are you, a 12 year old bully? Sheesh
Deadguy
FTX BAHAMAS AND COCAINE
TV Contracts are what pay MLB players 300 millions….. ouch….
Nine Inch Nails Head like a Hole playing in the background….
Cue wild Left and right winged conspiracy theories involving Biff Tannen and back to the future and MH 370 and June 30th 2014 edition of Sports Illustrated…. NOW!!!
So wild it took off and flew away like a plane!
This one belongs to the Reds
He just doesn’t like anything that spoils his narrative that everything is fine, nothing to see here.
This one belongs to the Reds
Any revenue stream that is disrupted affects baseball operations. Every damn one.
If you think MLB gave them that money out of the goodness of their heart, I have a nice bridge to sell you. That will become another obligation to repay.
Getting out a loan for an MLB team is not common, despite what a lot of blowhards say. They don’t operate like that to be so close to operating in the red, just as any business would. They expect to make a profit and have people that have it down to a science where obligations are amd how much to outlay to make x profit. At least well run teams do.
SDHotDawg
OF COURSE it had “something to do” with the TV money! Revenue and cash flow comes from a number of sources, and the TV deal was just one. To dismiss it because MLB covered 80% is being completely ignorant and disingenuous, just so you can pound your chest and claim to be “right” about something. Ghat’s just precious. You and PadsFans are the same.
SDHotDawg
@SODO …
Yes, he’s a total keyboard commando. The only place he’s ever felt any sense of worth or fulfillment in his entire life is on forums like this, where he can use anonymity to let his real personality come through.
Deleted Userr
And post his fake stories about sitting next to players, managers, executives or agents on planes/at restaurants from 6 different accounts.
SDHotDawg
@legendary …
LOL! I think my favorite was when he claimed to hear Hosmer yelling at Tingler during a game, listening to the whole thing while sitting behind the dugout. He even made up quotes! (“Am I earning my paycheck now, Tinkerbell?”)
Deleted Userr
Hahahaha I remember that! It was actually Andy Green, not Tingler. And it was “chief,” not “Tinkerbell.” And then someone screenshotted it and posted it on Twitter and it spread to most/all of the relevant Padres social media websites (Gaslampball, Reddit, UT, etc.)
But my favorite would have to be the one about having a realtor sister who sold Freddy Galvis a house in SD.
SDHotDawg
@legendary … That’s right, it was Green! Yeah, he posted that crap on every site he could find, and not one person questioned the logistics involved which would have proved the scene false!
Deleted Userr
Now he’s claiming that he and his so-called wife just so happened to be in Nashville when the winter meetings were happening and is leaking things on here that he supposedly “overheard.”
mlbtraderumors.com/2023/12/yankees-trade-rumors-pa…
SDHotDawg
Are you kidding me? That guy is pathological.
Seamaholic
Playoff revenue would have been nowhere near $50m.
Deadguy
FTX BAHAMAS AND COCAINE! AJ PRELLER YOU LOOKING TO TESTIFY?
I once worked for a boss who was over his under? He bothered me like my name was Bob Melvin via the telephone? “WHATS TAKING SO LONG? I NEED WINS!”
Black Ace57
When writers or fans complain that teams like the Guardians take occasional steps back to reduce payroll this is a sign of the reality. Not every team can have a blank check and be like the Dodgers or Yankees.
iverbure
Shouldn’t ever listen to fans. The least knowledgeable people in the sport with the most biased opinions. It’s irrelevant what fans think. Just be quiet and let the gane tell you when to cheer.
CardsFan57
This sight wouldn’t exist if people took your advice.
Jean Matrac
I’d say you’re both right. It’s good that people have a place to express their opinions, but in the greater scheme of things, it’s also good to keep in mind that fans know squat. Myself included.
CardsFan57
Judging by the results, many baseball executives don’t have any more of a clue than fans
Deadguy
Aj Preller did enough cocaine with Sam Bankman Fried he was certain FTX was covering Juan Sotos salary?
Bernie Sanders is testifying? “I’ve never seen so much blantent certainty in one man that if the Padres won the debt would be paid off? Now that Sam is out of the picture? Aj preller surely would like to come out of this looking like HSBC bank”
YanksTomator
Padres are going to have to unload money.
Bogaerts awful contract + Soto + catching prospect to Red Sox for Alex VERDUGO, Colton Wong and 2 prospects.
Padres pay 40m of Bogaerts awful contract.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
That’s an idiotic offer.
Rking
Yeah no one is taking that Bogaerts contract.
Kruk's Beer League
I actually feel that offer is even insulting to idiots.
cdouglas24000
How in the blue hell did bogaerts play 155 games and only hit 58 RBIs?? That’s like almost laughable he could only muster that amount. Boston let him walk and it was the right thing to do. Now if theye wouldn’t have traded away mookie many moons ago they would be in great shape to contend vs orioles in 24.
Fever Pitch Guy
doug – With all due respect ….
1) It’s “RBI”, not “RBIs”
2) You don’t “hit” RBI. He drove in 58 runs.
3) He played with an injured wrist for most of the season
4) He batted leadoff for 23 games, which means far fewer RBI opportunities
You’re right about Mookie though.
Cleon Jones
RBIs is an initialism, showing the plural of the noun “runs”. If he drove in one run, it would ve stated/written as RBI. If more than one, its stated ir written as RBIs.
deweybelongsinthehall
Fever, no disrespect but most who were born before 1970 or even later grew up with sportscasters saying RBIs. Words and abbreviations have always been made up and added to one’s vocabulary.
superunclea
First it’s Conner Wong. Kolten or Colton Wong was signed by the Padres last year after being DFA by Seattle. Red Sox won’t give up so much for so little.
tstats
Pretty sure he was signed by the dodgers
Fenway 1
As a Sox fan. This would be the Best trade ever! I would forgive the mookie trade if this happened. Too bad no one is this stupid.
Misty Moobs
To YanksTomator: The only reason you are calling Bogeys contract awful is because you are still salty about the dinger he hit off Cole in the wild card game!
BaseballisLife
Bogaerts had a 4.4 WAR. His contact isn’t a bad one right now. Maybe it will be in 7-8 years, but today it’s a good one.
JoeBrady
Maybe it will be in 7-8 years, but today it’s a good one.
========================
You can say that about any long-term contract. If DeGrom wins 20 games a year in 2025-27, it’ll be a good contract. But you have to project based on what you know now.
Or conversely, ask how many teams would pick up the remaining contract with nothing in return. If the answer is -0-, it is everything you need to know.
Rsox
Why would the Red Sox make that deal?
Fever Pitch Guy
Rsox – They wouldn’t. They’ve already got a great defensive SS in Story, another in Rafaela, and a top SS prospect on the way.
Maybe things will change down the road, but for now there’s no need for Xander to rejoin the Sox.
Deleted Userrr
How can the Red Sox trade Kolten Wong when he plays for the Dodgers?
Deleted Userr
Why would the Padres do that when they gave up CJ Abrams, MacKenzie Gore and James Wood for Soto not even 16 months ago?
Deadguy
Didn’t the Dodgers get operated by MLB for doing the same BS?
Rsox
Ah yes, the end of the McCourt era where they were going through a messy divorce and Frank had no money to start with and the Dodgers were basically collateral damage
Ejemp2006
I believe the next great depression will kick off when a major sports league needs to be bailed out. My bet is the NBA will be the first to default, but who knows.
The international community let the US save its banks and no one questioned their allegiance to the dollar. However, i doubt the rest of the world’s reliance on our sports will keep them in line when we run the presses to make sure Charlotte can keep running out the Hornets.
mrkinsm
Not going to happen. They are monopolies operating with a monopoly. Something billionaires use for status. More and more billionaires in this world every year.
vikingbluejay67
Fenway 1
I am curious on what everyone thinks so who is the better player? Bogaerts or G Torres
Misty Moobs
Obviously Bogey. He is a great consistent player and Gleyber is very lazy and the worst defender I have ever seen
Captain-Judge99
So much for the Padres having so much $,looks like the fans were all wrong. Lol.
websoulsurfer
From the article this one references
“MLB teams commonly tap into lines of credit to pay their bills, prompting some officials in the sport to suggest any concern should be tempered because the Padres were ultimately creditworthy enough to draw the loan”
Deadguy
FTX BAHAMAS AND COCAINE!
SODOMOJO
This is bananas. Sheds light on all the the recent reading material. BoMel got the hell outta there. Now we wait to see who gets traded to start the fire sale.
El Niño
This is not bananas. Corporations take out loans to cover costs ALL THE TIME. Sounds like someone in the ownership group isn’t happy about the direction of the team. Not a big deal.
YankeesBleacherCreature
More like some exec feeling ambitious and self-important and wants to earn brownie points with the media. I give you the scoop and you give me one when another front office gig elsewhere you learn about may be opening. The intent isn’t always malicious.
aragon
#2 over all attendance means appx. 3 million for the season. TV money was about $50 mil. that is enough to run a franchise. This is nothing more than greed.
1984wasntamanual
It’s amazing how many internet economists have no idea about the cost to run businesses.
SDHotDawg
@1984 …
What’s more amazing is how many internet KIAs don’t know the difference between Economics and Finance.
(#KIA = ”Know-It-All”)
SODOMOJO
Even if the fact that the team taking out a loan for $50 million is normal practice, on the heels of a very public assertion that they want to cut payroll by $200 million….on the heels of their manager skipping town while still
Under contract…
There’s definitely some monkey business going down behind the scenes. I’d love to be a fly on the wall
El Niño
Dude, it was 1 article from a local writer (acee) who gets it wrong all the time. Nothing to see here.
Brew88
The team certainly has a microscope on it, mostly because they decided to compete which bothers people.
SODOMOJO
The team appears to have issues behind the scenes currently. Do you not agree?
SODOMOJO
Well, when you spend a jillion dollars trying to win, fail, undergo clubhouse turmoil, lose your manager, and then backtrack a few months later saying “damn we spent too much, and need to cut $200 million”
You’re kind of asking for the microscope to be placed on you.
El Niño
Who backtracked specifically?
SODOMOJO
cbssports.com/mlb/news/disappointing-padres-expect…
Did you not see this story when it came out?
El Niño
Ya, that was based on an article written by Kevin acee, and acee backtracked on it bro.
SODOMOJO
Link me, bro, and I’ll kiss your feet.
And then. Even if that’s true, I’ll still think to myself; “dang, the Padres aren’t in great shape”
El Niño
It was in an interview. I’m not into fetishes.
SODOMOJO
Well, that’s unfortunate that you like to go out of your way to argue; and then not provide evidence for your claim. Unfortunate, but not unexpected.
Carry on
mrkinsm
Their manager skipped town because he knew he wasn’t wanted – not because of money.
El Niño
Or I’m just a local San diegan who knows more about the local landscape than you.
SODOMOJO
That’s fine, all I can do is go off of what information I take in. I asked you to provide me with proof of further information, so that I can be more educated on the situation. Again, it’s unfortunate that you decline to do so
El Niño
Acee only covered the chargers and was ok, when they left he started covering the padres and has always been terrible in the space. Not sure why he still has a job at the UT tbh.
SODOMOJO
TG19, how do you REALLY feel about Acee?
Can all the issues behind the scenes for this club truly be attributed to one journalist simply spouting at the mouth?
El Niño
What are “all the issues” – stay in your lane, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Brew88
I know Acee said he felt the team needed to. It payroll to $200k and you believe him instead of Seidler who says they will be fully committed $ for 2024. You get to choose.
Brew88
Just go read the links provided by mlbtr in those articles. It all traces back to one reporters opinion
BaseballisLife
No one in the Padres said that they want to cut payroll. They still haven’t. Only the media has.
El Niño
I read the local news in San Diego every day not only the clickbait on mlbtr. Until the roster is set next year this is a waste of time.
Brew88
I should have @SODO, not you man!
SODOMOJO
TG19 in a burning house:
“This is fine. Stop being dramatic”
El Niño
Haha. It’s hard to tell what’s going on in these threads!
SODOMOJO
Stay in your lane? What a dick. We’re all here to discuss baseball, I’m not looking to be “correct” over you. Talk. Converse.
SODOMOJO
The point is, why would you clown on a fellow baseball fan, for reading into articles that are published on mlbtraderumors.com; specifically known as a site that gives you “inside information?”
Simply provide further information and discuss. Why attack the questions themselves? The stuff I asked was completely valid. I thought we were here to talk baseball?
Carry on
El Niño
So who backtracked, specifically? Preller and Seidler have said their first priority is extending Soto and neither have said they want to cut payroll. You are basing all of your opinions on 1 article that the writer admitted was playing fast and loose. You keep going with the same nonsense, then say carry on. What house is burning? What are you even talking about. The padres finished 2 games behind the diamondbacks and didn’t have our best player to start the season. From where I’m sitting in San Diego, we have a talented core locked up to compete for the next decade.
SODOMOJO
CHECK IT OUT! A well thought out, informative perspective
What was the deal with the drama between Preller and BoMel? Care to elaborate on that?
SODOMOJO
If the team is so close to success, if everything is fine; why did BoMel, a manager revered league wide as a man who knows what he is doing; manage to squirrel out of his contract mid deal? Rather unprecedented for that to happen. Another absolutely valid reason to speculate about the behind the scenes Padres stuff.
El Niño
Have you ever heard of philosophical difference? I watched almost every game this year and was pretty disappointed with Bob Melvin tbh. He seemed in phone it in on June/juky. Not sure he’s “revered” – managers are overrated. We lost all 12 extra inning games, that kind of statistical anomaly alone kept us out of the playoffs.
It’s not unprecedented -“BoMel” literally left in the A’s in the same situation. Hahahahaha
El Niño
Look man, you can’t seem to let this go. So carry on reading your click bait thinking it’s the whole story. I’m done here.
SODOMOJO
“It’s not unprecedented”
Yeah, happens all the time right? 92 win managers trying to get out of their deal.
Also, instead of saying “have you ever heard of philosophical differences?”
You could shift the focus off of me, and back towards the conversation by simply saying “in my opinion, there were irreconcilable philosophical differences.”
I can let it go just fine. I learned from you and this exchange; I don’t think you can say the same, unfortunately.
SODOMOJO
Thanks for gracing me with your presence and thoughts. Productive discussion.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
TG19
Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.
I am content to wait until April 2024 to see what is real and what is not.
Personally, I think that the increase in team equity for the Padres should outway any cash flow issue. However, I also think the ownership group may want to re-think their approach since it utterly failed. Even if the Padres had been the second wild card with 85 wins, that would not have met expectations. So I could see payroll reductions, but not based on this cash flow issue.
websoulsurfer
What drama between them? Preller, Melvin, and current employees all say there WAS no drama.
Only unnamed former employees and players claimed there was.
websoulsurfer
Sodo, a better questions are why did the Padres, who had Melvin under contract for another year and could have simply allowed him to sit on the sidelines for a year, allow a supposedly revered manager to walk with no compensation. Why were the Padres the 2nd team in 2 years to allow Melvin to just walk away during a contract? Why did the team leaders including Machado, Soto, and others come to Preller in early September to complain about Melvin after a POM on August 31st? Why would players be unhappy with him if he was so revered?
websoulsurfer
Who was a 92 win manager trying to get out of their deal? Sure wasn’t Melvin.
Why would he learn from you when you added nothing?
websoulsurfer
An article that references the Acee article which Acee later backtracked on.
SODOMOJO
Again, you can’t fault me or anybody else for questioning stories that are reported to us, via multiple sources. I have no problem being wrong. Tell me why I’m wrong, and don’t act like my reasonable pontifications, based on the multiple articles we’ve been fed over the past month regarding this team; just tell me why I’m wrong, don’t question why I’m asking reasonable questions.
In this respect, I feel as though I have offered both you and TG19 some sound advice from a logical perspective, as to how to provide somebody with information that might counter what they think. Instead of being a dick about it, in some sort of odd attempt to “assert” yourself “over” me, as if my comments have absolutely no merit, or place, in a discussion about the Padres recent happenings.
At no point did I claim to have done extensive research, or any research; other than reading articles that gave me the information that I used in this discussion. It’s on that I wasn’t as caught up in the topic, and now I feel as though I am, though I am absolutely not going to jump to any conclusions. We’ll see how this team does next year, we’ll see if they actually cut salary.
websoulsurfer
Of course we can. At least 10 different people who actually read Acee daily have told what he is like and you still decide to take his opinion as fact. That is a deadly thing to do when Acee himself often contradicts his own articles in the very next article.
Here is the final straws for your argument
The Padres approached MLB about taking out a $100 million loan and were approved to take out $50 million on September 18th. No payroll is due that late in the year. The final payroll for the players is on September 15th. They didn’t borrow to cover payroll.
In the article has two key quotes right up front.
“MLB teams commonly tap into lines of credit to pay their bills, prompting some officials in the sport to suggest any concern should be tempered because the Padres were ultimately creditworthy enough to draw the loan.”
“The Padres organization continues to have access to all the resources, financial and otherwise, it needs to field a championship caliber team for the fans of San Diego,” Padres CEO Erik Greupner said in a statement. “We established a capital plan for 2023 with our ownership group and lender partners and are operating our business in accordance with that plan.”
The loan was taken out in the 2nd half of September and a team official quoted in the article said, “We anticipated we may need it at some point this year,” the official said of the loan. “We’re not in crisis. We’re managing the business responsibly, we will continue to do that going forward.”
Meaning that they don’t need it YET.
Let’s recap.
The loan was taken out after all payroll was already paid.
MLB owners routinely take out loans of this type.
Greupner said that the team has all the resources, financial and otherwise to continue to field a team at this level.
A team official was quoted as saying the loan was for something they anticipate coming up later this year. It hasn’t happened yet.
SODOMOJO
You CAN fault me and other people, for not having the mastery of the topic that you two so eagerly claim to have. It just makes you a poor candidate to advance discussion. It’s off putting. It derives from the point you actually do make; when you provide the conversation with factual information that continues the talk; rather than a non sequitur like “why do you think what you think?”
It’s surprising to me that I just wrote this out, because somebody really needed it to be explained to them.
Unless, you just don’t care? Cause you’re cool and you don’t gaf? Is that why you make such demeaning inferences as to someone’s comment presence on a free, baseball website? Is that why you’re here? To correct people?
Legitimate question….
AgentF
The thing that really should be taken from all this is the factual, news of the article – SD took a loan out to cover costs and TG19 hits the nail on the head when stating that this is very common practice for major corporations. The thing that you guys seem to be disagreeing on is the speculative side of things. Instead of just reporting the news, someone always has to offer some guess on why this has occurred. It’s natural to speculate to some degree, but to argue it as fact is just foolish. I mean, look what happened to Trevor Bauer as a result of the media’s, and then public’s, speculation.
Brew’88
@SODO, what “issues” are they having that other teams are not having? Mostly, they’re having success when measured by increased revenues, energized fanbase, etc… On the field not as well as expected this past year, but the previous year they were one pitch away from WS. Ease up pal.
Brew’88
29 of 30 teams “failed” according to your judgement. jillion, is that a number or someone’s name?
Brew’88
and you don’t?
Brew’88
largely so yes, but only because you take everything he writes as accurate apparently. So he has his remoras.
Brew’88
but the house isn’t burning down, there’s a sports business being operated, why exaggerate?
SDHotDawg
@AgentF …
No, this is NOT a “very common practice” for MAJOR CORPORATIONS. That is a blatant lie. Major corporations don’t take out short-term loans to cover such short-term expenses as payroll. That is simply a fact. If Intel or P&G had to take out a loan to meet payroll, their investors (stock price) would collapse overnight.
You don’t need to pretend to be an “expert in everything” (like websoulfool) to understand some basic finance.
SDHotDawg
LOL! “when measured by …”
It’s not much of a conversation when you choose the other person’s metrics for them, and then use those (your) metrics to admonish them. Ease up?
Brew’88
@SDHotDawg. I assume you’re referring to my post? Not sure wtf you’re talking about in regards to this “other person’s metrics” or otherwise demon in your head(s) of the conversation(s) you’re having internally. Good luck.
AgentF
Fair statement if this is the case. It would have certain implications, but they never said it was a short term loan, only that it was a loan to pay short term expenses. The rest is speculation. In finance, you never find out the reasons why a company makes the strategic moves they make, yet for some odd reason people feel that every transaction warrants an insider opinion. wtf? I’m a Mets fan, but if I clung on to the words or Andy Martino, I’d be wrong more often than right.
SDHotDawg
@AgentF…
You’re correct in that it was only assumed to be a short-term loan. It’s still odd that a company of that size would need a loan for short-term expenses. Most larger companies keep a certain percentage of income as Cash Reserves. And, I believe MLB has certain requirements about its owners’ liquidity, debt ratios, equity, etc. But, as we all know, good accountants can work magic.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
What happened to Trevor Bauer is fully justified based upon undisputed facts
First, he was not prosecuted, which is appropriate because his third victim was a con artist
Second, teams want no part of him, because he hits women and insults girls in Twitter and is disliked by teammates. And he fails to show remorse or humility. Owners have the right to act in their own business interest.
Deleted Userr
Bauer has no victims!
SDHotDawg
Opening with the logical fallacies of argumentum ad populum and argumentum ad hominem of “At least ten people who read Acee …” greatly diminishes the veracity of the rest of your 300+ word essay.
“Everybody says so” proves nothing.
1984wasntamanual
“Even though I was wrong I’m still right!”
iverbure
Soto traded, Padres definitely shedding payroll fast!
websoulsurfer
From the actual article this one references. “MLB teams commonly tap into lines of credit to pay their bills, prompting some officials in the sport to suggest any concern should be tempered because the Padres were ultimately creditworthy enough to draw the loan”
vaderzim
Another chapter to San Diego’s Legacy of Failure.
Rangers could end their’s tonight!
charlie 6
This sounds a little like how Frank McCourt got started downhill.
YankeesBleacherCreature
McCourt’s divorce did him in. This isn’t it.
14thor
McCourt and his ex wife had mansions next door to each other. And didn’t she sleep with the bodyguard or something?
Jasonb 3
How does Preller still have a job? Not only did they not sell any players, they took on the likes of Rich Hill and Choi.
HBan22
He still consistently builds a good farm. Just can’t seem to make things work at the major league level. The Bogaerts contract in particular was truly puzzling, as many have noted. Should have saved that money for pitching (or extending Soto).
El Niño
It’s well documented that Seidler personally negotiated the bogaerts deal. The padres finished 2 games behind the diamondbacks and didn’t have our best player to start the season. Chill out.
HBan22
They were also extremely unlucky this past season. The amount of one-run and extra innings games that they lost was incredible. They really probably should have been in the playoffs, but luck just wasn’t on their side.
JayRyder
Well there goes Soto.
solaris602
Hasta la vista, baby
receo
Gwynning
I was speechless too, until I heard that this was planned.
sfes
Yeah this article basically read “OMG!!! No biggie… but maybe OMG!!! Or nah…”
Brew’88
@sfes. Beginnings of the paragraphs sure do state your case:
“Ultimately, however…”
“Then again…”
“For what’s it’s worth…”
“Nonetheless, ”
“Still, …, ”
“In other words, ….”
Hemlock
I stole some of your thunder—
Evidently, The fact that, Ultimately, however, it’s hard to say whether, The reporters from The Athletic, To that point, Then again, it’s concerning, Indeed, the news, For what it’s worth, After all, As the reporters from The Athletic, Nonetheless, Another anonymous official told The Athletic, Still, If temporarily, This past season certainly, It will be challenging to fill those holes, In other words, it’s hard to imagine, Unfortunately, that might be the only way, Soto alone is projected.
COME ON, MAN! OUT WITH IT, MR. MARBLES!
Brew88
Haha hemlock You did a bette job!
Farian
Good. The billionaire owners should be spending even if it’s beyond what might be reasonable to some teams (I’m sure it’s John Fisher or Mark Attanasio calling them “reckless”). Why should fans care if they need to take out a loan? They just want their team to win and be entertained.
Braveslifer
SD had the 3rd largest payroll. How did that work out for them? Spending just to spend is reckless, which is what SD did, and now have nothing but debt to show for it.
Citizen1
It doesn’t sound like debt. Reads like the padres have money owed to them but weren’t being paid. Real concern on who isn’t paying them on time.
Tigers3232
@Citizen, they re also likely just generating capital and utilizing tax code to their advantage. Which is wise regardless, especially if they have uncollected debts owed to them.
Tigers3232
@Braves, Seidler is a 2 time cancer survivor worth Billions, he has more than he ll ever spend. If spending # on the team he owns makes him happy good for him and good for the fans in San Diego.
Braveslifer
@Tiger, I’m in no way saying he shouldn’t have, I’m merely responding to the original comment regarding spending, which is what SD did, but for what? If it makes the owner and fans happy to put a subpar product on the field, that’s their prerogative. If I had the money, I would have done the same, but maybe on a better group of talent.
Tigers3232
@Braves, Obviously it did not work out so well this past season. But he generated a lot of hype and enthusiasm from Padres fans. I think pro sports are better off with guys like Seidler opposed to guys like John Fisher.
Braveslifer
True story
JoeBrady
I doubt it. Guys like Seidler and Cohen spend so much that even teams like the Yankees and RS are being forced to the sidelines.
Farian
“even teams like the Yankees and RS are being forced to the sidelines”
WON’T SOMEONE THINK OF THE YANKEES AND RED SOX?!?!?!
Brew88
@Braves. How did that work out for them? 3.2 million fans. Long waiting list for season tickets next year. Fans dig ownership commitment.
Tigers3232
@Brew88, well said. This past season might ve ended in disappointment for Padres fans, I’m sure they ll still be a ton of enthusiasm for the team come next season even with Snell, Hader, and possibly Soto gone. They still have a ton of talent and ownership that will still be looking to regroup and succeed.
Brew88
Just to have an ownership willing to give them a chance to succeed is something San Diego fans haven’t experienced in 55 years, so yeah, the enthusiasm isn’t waning. I’m a Giants fan married into a Padres family, so I lend my support. That aside, I’m also finding myself more interested in the Pads than SF largely, they are a fun team (despite rumors to contrary)
Farian
Better than NOT spending like Oakland or Milwaukee. So the billionaires go into some debt? Big deal.
stymeedone
Why should their customers care if Sears & Kmart aren’t making enough to pay their expenses without taking out loans. They just want the convenience.
Blue Baron
Sears and KMart don’t really have any customers. They filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy and are going out of business.
1984wasntamanual
I thought that was his point. The reason a lot of these companies end up going under is because they take out massive loans and then can’t make the debt service payments on top of operating expenses.
Tigers3232
@Stymeed well any Sears and KMart customers who enjoyed the convenience of shopping there absolutely should care as that convenience is gone.
Blue Baron
No they don’t. Amazon is more convenient than going to any store, which is why said stores are going under.
Tigers3232
@Blue Baron, that is true for nearly all brick and mortar retail. But some just detest online shopping or need things immediately. But many brick and mortar will go under and the minority that detest online shopping or those that need things immediately will not make a big enough impact to negate the effects of e-commerce.
Blue Baron
@Tigers3232: There also are a minority of people who prefer reading a printed newspaper to a website or app, and there used to be people who would rather use landlines than have cell phones.
Going further back, there were people who would rather jump on a horse’s back than drive one of those cockamamie machines with internal combustion engines we know as automobiles.
Technology evolves and changes how people live, and that’s all there is to it.
Jean Matrac
Farian, I agree billionaire owners should be spending, but there’s a difference between spending wisely and foolishly. And I don’t think that $50M loan is that big a deal. But I’ve wondered about their long term financial picture for a while now. They have several back-loaded contracts on the books, stretching 10 years or so into the future. What’s their team makeup going to look like a few years from now, when they’re paying big salaries to aging superstars on the downside of their careers?
Farian
I just don’t see what kind of spending the Padres are doing that’s foolish outside of Robert Suarez. Otherwise, they’re spending a lot on very good players.
SDHotDawg
Seriously? Are you even vaguely aware of the terms of these huge contracts and the long-term implications?
RyanD44
Do you know how most billionaires and millionaires became so wealthy? By making intelligent business decisions.
While some owners might see this as a hobby and are willing to lose money at the cost of winning, many owners also want to turn a profit. I know that doesn’t matter to the fans, and I know they are rich already, but you can’t fault them for wanting to make money..
Tigers3232
@Ryan, well said. Except ultimately I believe nearly every owner hopes to at least end up in the black. I remember one year when Tigers were contending and missed playoffs it was first year in awhile they had lost $ by not getting the playoff revenue. I wanna say it was only like $13M list as well. I was quite surprised when I had read it as I was under the assumption Illitch had been willingly losing $ with how much he had increased payroll. Point being is these teams generate a ton of $ and the owners are rich beyond comprehension. Even when they are or claim to lose $, it is usually just on paper and is a strategic loss from a business perspective.
Jean Matrac
RyanD44, It’s important not to conflate business decisions with baseball decisions. I wouldn’t trust the smartest financial brain in the world to make player/personnel decisions on my team. In the case of the Padres, IMO some bad baseball decisions has put the team in a questionable position, long term.
Seamaholic
It’s got nothing to do with the owner’s wealth. Baseball teams have their own budgets and are operated within those constraints. Owners can choose to take less profit and instead spend more, but under no circumstances ever do owners spend from their own pockets. Not even in the Padres’ case, as they are filling a budget hole with a loan rather than asking the owner to do so.
Tigers3232
The owner can invest his own capital in the team. Just as an owner can forsake any profits and leave it as capital within the team. In taking on a loan they are assuming debt which cam be wrote off which has tax advantages in itself.
As for the parameters those are requirements of MLBs salary debt ratio compliance.
Farian
They aren’t taking on losses by involving their own finances when losses happen, but they ARE taking on profit when that happens. So they’re making decisions very much based on their pocketbooks. They want profits.
Tigers3232
You are missing the point, they do not have to take profits. And no they are not making decisions based on their pocketbooks. They have to per MLB requirements.
cbssports.com/mlb/news/disappointing-padres-expect…
Farian
I’m pretty sure all MLB owners want profit. What MLB requirements are you talking about? What is the debt service ratio?
Tigers3232
lawinsider.com/dictionary/mlb-debt-service-rule
Tigers3232
MLB owners like all business owners don’t want to lose $. Losing $ and taking a profit are two very different things. The best example there is would be Jeff Bezos. For countless years he reinvested revenue into Amazon instead of taking a profit and then paying income tax. Then when in need of capital would just borrow against his worth paying interest that was far lower than what he would ve paid in income taxes.
Farian
This doesn’t say anything about the rule MLB itself, and for some reason this sentence is there: “this region is considered to have intermittent supply due to problem of low pressure and long distances from the existing treatment plants at Hermitage and Le Niol.” wtf?
Farian
Gotta spend money to make money. I don’t think the A’s are very profitable.
Tigers3232
thebiglead.com/posts/mlb-teams-profitable-revenue-…
A’s were actually 6th most profitable MLB team last season. I was rather shocked learning that.
Farian
Considering they make zero money because no one will come to see a crap team in an awful stadium, it makes sense.
drasco036
The Padres are estimated to be worth what, a couple billion dollars? Of course a creditor would be willing to give them 100 million dollars. If I had a 100 million to loan the Padres I’d do it in a heart beat too.
Everyone but Padre fans knew that San Diego wasn’t able to maintain their payroll. They have been a blueprint on how not to operate a baseball team for the past 3 years, trading away the best farm system in baseball for over priced veterans and handing out long term contract just to get the yearly sums down.
What’s crazy is they are going to owe a ton of money to Machado and Boegart (and Tatis for that matter) for a long long time.
Tigers3232
Seidler is estimated to be worth $3 Billion. Their payroll is absolutely sustainable, they re just taking advantage of tax laws and clearly there is a benefit to this from that perspective. The rich stay rich exploiting the system. Can’t say I blame them, most of us would do the same in their position and we know all the other MLB owners would.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
He is estimated to be worth $3 billion but how much of that is the Padres and is any significant amount of it liquid?
Tigers3232
The $3 Billion estimated I believe is derived from worth outside of Padres. And to any Billionaire liquidity means nothing. People such as Bezos and Musk often don’t even have income, they just borrow against their worth to avoid income taxes.
So again Padres payroll is absolutely sustainable. This is just a wise business move to utilize advantages of tax code.
BaseballisLife
Their owner and now their CEO have said they can maintain their payroll. So why do fans think they know more than they do?
SDHotDawg
Maybe because it was reported that the loan was to cover short-term expenses — including payroll? And then, maybe because the CEO has a pretty good reason to claim everything’s hunky-dory?
It’s really not much of a stretch.
Al Hirschen
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha now the Padres are gonna have to fall in line reduce budget to get just under the luxury tax threshold. The Padres will have to learn how to put asses in seats all over again.
User 2079935927
The Padres atttendance this year was 3.2 M. Drawing fans is not a issue. Maybe it is with your team ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Tigers3232
Why do you assume that? Their owner is still worth Billions. They don’t necessarily have to get under the luxury tax threshold by any means. All they need to do at this point is meet MLB salary debt ratio compliance requirements.
Fans are irrelevant, Seidler can pump his own capital into the team at any time he so chooses. You are mistaking the finances of the entity that is the Padres with the finances of ownership as a whole.
This one belongs to the Reds
Billionaires don’t throw good money after bad. That’s how they became billionaires to begin with.
bravesfan
I don’t see how organizations this big and that have the ability to bring in the money they do would ever need to pull out a loan unless it’s strictly for real estate transactions. If payroll is causing it, then there is a business strategy problem. Regardless, this ultimately isn’t a bad sign for the padres, but it’s definitely interesting to note as it could be a bad sign
Tigers3232
@Braves, I think you are mistaking this as them taking out a loan as a desperate need. Seidler could cover the amount borrowed in pocket change. That loan is a strategic business move and it obviously pays off by having one of his business entities(the Padres), assume this debt opposed to infusing said entity with capital from one of his other entities.
Seidler owns a private equity firm, the man has made billions manipulating our monetary system and tax code for profit.
AgentF
Exactly! He could… but it would be massively foolish. You want to isolate your entities so as to not make them codependent on the success of each other. That’s like the most basic rule of business. If the Padres need to borrow money, they borrow money. Taking from elsewhere, private or business, when the Padres have the ability to loan, would be crazy.
mrkinsm
Our former president literally did this for 40 years, his father did it for 40 more years. Rich people do this regularly, and it makes them richer doing it.
Tigers3232
I can’t blame them for doing so. In my opinion they’d be fools not to. When I do my taxes I take advantage of all legal write offs I have. Not doing seems kind of foolish.
mrkinsm
Agreed, they pay for the lobbyists who bully the people who write the tax law. Stupid, not to reap rewards in their shoes. I’m sure all the MLB owners would come out tomorrow and tell you they are losing money if they had to.
This one belongs to the Reds
Robby the robot wouldn’t allow that.
JoeBrady
I heard that even regular folks put down 10% on a second house and deduct the interest from their rental income. They create a positive cash flow for 30 years, and all the gains on the house are taxed at a reduced capital gains tax rate.
Butter Biscuits
AJ Preller is an embarrassment of a GM
HBan22
He’s definitely a unique GM. He does some things exceptionally well, such as scouting and building a good farm system. He’s also made plenty of very good trades and free agent signings, but mixed in with some awful ones as well. Almost every long-term deal he’s given out has been or will go down as an albatross. The Bogaerts contract made zero sense, the Darvish extension was for way too many years, and the Cronenworth extension was completely unnecessary. He should have spread the payroll around more to field a more complete roster, rather than just commit the entire payroll to 5 or 6 “star” players. He’s a very mixed bag of a GM in my opinion, and a frustrating one overall.
El Niño
Seems pretty clear that AJ is executing Seidlers strategy.
BaseballisLife
Why?
Hired Gun 23
No sweat, once a tv contract is in place. And yeah, revenues for this past season and the upcoming season aren’t adding up chump change. While I agree money could’ve been better spent, it doesn’t mean that things can’t or won’t turnaround. I will say this, Preller, deservedly so, has the leash the size of a fingernail and needs to get creative and figure out how to bring in some ballplayers who can come together and make the $25 dollar beers @ Petco Park worth buying in 2024…
30 Parks
Amateur hour.
C Yards Jeff
Title of story should read:
“Padres took out a 50 million loan to cover payroll because MLB said no to 100 million”
IMO, that’s the meat of the story.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Padres tried to shoot the moon, and it appears to have backfired. Wonder if Seidler’s illness had something to do with it so he put all his eggs in one basket and then borrowed some more eggs. Hopefully he’ll recover fine with more years down the road to go for it.
Brew’88
the national debt is 157 trillion, so we’re all failures.
briar-patch thatcher
Speak for yourself, toots.
Brew’88
shared responsibility in a democracy isn’t silence, patches
cpdpoet
No one is going to read this, but every single time I hear the word patches…. immediately ….. the legendary Patches O’Houlihan comes to mind…
Brew88
I read it
Candlestoked
Lol Padres.
hiflew
Gee it is almost like collecting 6 shortstops and just pounding those square pegs into round holes was a bad idea.
El Niño
Bet you can’t name all 6…
hiflew
Kim, Tater Tot, Cronenworth, Nola, Bogaerts, Machado
El Niño
Ya, so there’s 3 shortstops in there genius. Tatis was great in right, bogaerts/kim will work itself out.
hiflew
All 6 of them were shortstops in the majors or high minors.
DarkSide830
Nola hasn’t played SS since 2016???
El Niño
Hahahaha in the “high minors” I bet the whole team was shortstops in little league.
El Niño
So by your logic Trevor Hoffman was a shortstop too! Hahahahaha
hiflew
Doesn’t matter when the conversion took place. He is still a converted shortstop.
hiflew
Hardly. Conversions to pitcher is a completely different animal. Players convert to pitching because they couldn’t hit well enough to make the majors. These players were converted to other positions simply because there were too many people of the same position on the same team.
hiflew
There is a lot of space between little league and high minors. But you don’t care, you just want to be a dick. So I am done with you.
El Niño
Nah, you just made a dumb comment and you’re trying to rationalize it. 3 of the players you mentioned are not shortstops. Take the L
BaseballisLife
Yes it does. Sports Illustrated once said more than 50% of all major league players were shortstop at some point in their careers from high school on.
BaseballisLife
So you are being a dick to try to say he was being a dick?
Hemlock
>Bet you can’t name all 6…
Marky, Ricky, Danny, Terry, Mikey, Davey, Timmy, Tommy, Joey, Robby, Johnny, and Brian.
Gwynning
Hemlock, that was New Kids on the Block. You’re forgiven for the mix-up… everybody confuses NKOTB with ’23 Padre “shortstops”!
Simm
At least 1/3 of mlb teams take out lines of credit every year. Seidler their owner is worth 3 billion dollars. He made all his money by using other peoples money. This is just a hit piece about the padres with no mention of the other teams that do this. Mlb hates the padres spending so much because the cheap owners cry about it because it makes them look bad. The value of the franchise is 3x what they paid for it a decade ago. There is literally nothing to this. Sounds like it was all planned and who knows that their plan was to do with this money. By the time they got the loan most all the players payroll had already been paid. Perhaps they took it now to give a big signing bonus to a player this offseason. Literally zero reason to worry about any of this.
C Yards Jeff
Agreed, other teams do do this BUT the big but here is MLB (the league) had to get involved … which is a huge red flag.
Simm
Yeah because of the other owners crying.
This is really the best news for fans. Finally an owner willing to lose money if needed to try and win. We can make fun of them not winning but go ask fans of low budget owners. They fry all day about their cheap ownership. I take this all day as a padres fan.
C Yards Jeff
Gutsy indeed. Spending big can get the job done. Look at Texas. Betcha they have a line of credit as well.
I follow Baltimore. Owner is definitely tight with his pennies. Frustrating the best we could do was Flarety at the trade deadline.
Gwynning
It’s not a secret that Manfred does not like Seidler’s tact. He has been public about not being happy about the Padres spending. It’s painfully obvious that he toes the company line when one side of ownership is more heavy on the see-saw.
YankeesBleacherCreature
As a politician who wants to keep his job should.
Gwynning
I can’t fault him for doing his job, but don’t get me started on his stupid new rules! Ha cheers YBC
hiflew
Owners are not going to be willing to lose money to win. That is an asinine way to conduct a business. It reminds me of when all those unknown dotcom companies started buying Super Bowl ads and buying stadium naming rights in the hopes that it would build them a clientele. They were usually out of business by the end of the year.
Never forget that the whole goal for any owner is to make money. Even the ones that look like they aren’t worried about it like the Mets soon notice if the ink runs red. It wouldn’t surprise me to see a 2013 style Marlins sell off in San Diego this offseason. Or at least the attempt of one.
JoeBrady
This is really the best news for fans.
========================
Hard to read the need for $50M in cash flow as a positive.. Just like being forced to take out a home equity loan, there could be plenty of legitimate reasons to do so, but I doubt this is a positive thing.
BrianStrowman9
It’s not the time where you’d take out a strategic LOC due to capital planning either. If you wanted to lever up strategically—you’d have done it in the previous 6 summers.
mrkinsm
MLB got involved, so that they can suppress wages.
BaseballisLife
Where did it say MLB got involved?
mrkinsm
In the article.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
Can you link a source that confirms that so many teams do this yearly?
Simm
It literally says it in the article
This one belongs to the Reds
If many teams do this yearly, that is a major red flag for the sport.
hiflew
The bubble will burst soon. Especially once the expensive TV deals start to wither away.
I foresee a massive reduction in salaries and a change in contract structure akin to the NHL within the next decade.
Jean Matrac
A line of credit is different from a loan. With a LOC the money is there when it’s needed. With a LOC, there is no asking for a loan. I’m sure every team probably does have an LOC. My guess is the $50M needed exceeded what was available using the LOC.
Gwynning
Or Seidler really wanted the sweet free toaster opting for the loan instead of dipping into the LOC… what do we know? 😉
YankeesBleacherCreature
To me, this is a non-story. Wealthy people/orgs. borrow cash all the time. If the projected ROI on current/future investments beats out interest paid on borrowed money, then it makes perfect sense to do so. It’s for the same reason someone with great credit and wealth would choose to finance an expensive vehicle rather than dish out the one-time cash to purchase in full. It’s a story bc someone from within the Padres org decided to leak this.
Simm
Exactly it’s how the rich get richer. They don’t spend their own money.
CNichols
I agree that it’s a standard practice. I think it’s also a story because there’s been tension between the SD front office and the media. Ken Rosenthal from the Athletic was basically slamming the front office on a podcast recently about how Preller was trying to discredit him and the reporting about the Bob Melvin situation being irreparable when it ended up that Rosenthal was right. Kevin Acee was supposedly upset about this as well.
If the front office is going to fight with the media, this type of story is going to come out.
Brew’88
Sounds to me like they’re gearing up to extend Soto then go after Ohtani.
Hired Gun 23
Brew, I hope not.
Brew’88
would it be better for baseball if those guys went to the Yankees and Dodgers instead?
Candlestoked
Says here Otani told his agent not to pick up if SDP calls.
Sunday Lasagna
Even if the Diamondbacks lose the WS, the Padres can take note that even if you are out scored in the regular season and are barely above .500 with only two legit starters, an ok bullpen, one legit superstar, some lesser players and some role players, you too can get to the World Series and pocket the difference between the Padres and Diamondbacks payrolls.
Brew’88
but 15 of the last 16 WS winners have been top 8 spenders. It’s about to become 16 of the last 17. So there’s some truth also that those that invest in their teams have the best chance of winning.
hiflew
2015 Royals the exception?
Brew’88
yah. They had the 17th highest payroll that year.
ohyeadam
Sad but true brew. All the compensation picks, taxes, shared money given to small markets and they’re always the bridesmaid never the bride. The royals unique, backwards to todays game, bucked the trend
This one belongs to the Reds
Teams that have the resources due to massive local TV contracts to invest more in their teams.
Fixed it for you.
wallabeechamp
Not a single Pobre fan on here accusing Lin, & Acee of having vendettas today. No one blubbering on about how many mlb subscriptions were sold. Nothin about 3.2 million fools packing the pet store to watch the losses pile up. Not a soul blaming it on BoMel…
Hemlock
You know I’ve had it!!!
Lin, & Acee having vendettas today!
how many mlb subscriptions were sold????
3.2 million fools packing the pet store to watch the losses pile up!!!!
I am blamed it on Bobbert Melvins!!!!
foppert1
You are a brave man, Leo.
Brew’88
non-stories are Leo’s specialty
foppert1
Or excessively butt hurt responses are the Padres fan base speciality. Time will tell which it is.
Brew’88
butt hurt about what? I’m a Giants fan but most Padre fans I know feel these are the glory days (compared to the past).
foppert1
Negative press. The attacking of MLBTR for simply reporting what’s been reported has been way way over the top.
Brew88
Regarding facts my attention has been at the source (eg Acee). I’m not sure what this story is about really, Leo seems confused as to where to stand or how to package a team doing budget things.
getrealgone2
Joke of an organization.
mrkinsm
It’s fairly standard practice for rich people to operate their businesses on low interest loans, while they invest the revenues in stocks and bonds that bring back more in dividends and appreciated value than the loans. This really doesn’t come as a surprise to me, nor would it if we found out tomorrow that all 30 teams do this. The only thing that will really stop it is super high interest rates, which we aren’t there just yet.
Brew’88
Most of the 30 teams do this, but it’s more clickable when you report that the Padres do this. And that’s the whole point of it.
getrealgone2
If most teams do this how come it’s never been reported? I highly doubt mlbtraderumors has it out for SD
Brew’88
it’s not reported because it’s not a big deal it’s so commonplace.
Simm
Doesn’t say they loss 50m in the article. Who knows how much they have spent of the loan or what they are doing with it. Read the just spent 20 more million updating the stadium. Perhaps they are going to use it to give a player a big signing bonus. Who knows but the padres have money and can get money if needed. No issues at all here.
Simm
Did you read the article??! Sounds like no… the article stats that 25-33% of teams do this every year. Rosenthal just has something against the padres right now. Specially if you watch his video about preller saying he doesn’t give much value to reports in unanimous sources.
This one belongs to the Reds
If it is so commonplace then the sport is in more serious hurt than any of us suspected.
Simm
Nah, rich get richer by spending other people’s money. Just how life works.
This one belongs to the Reds
Just politics. In real life, those other people expect to get their money back plus interest.
Blue Baron
Interesting timing of this information leak as the World Series is about to end and salary arbitration and free agency season is about to begin.
The possibility should be considered that the Padres may not have needed the loan that badly, but they took it and the information was leaked now as a strategic lead up to owners pleading poverty to try to keep player compensation down in contract negotiations.
I could be totally off base, but don’t underestimate the owners’ cheapness relative to their franchise values and willingness to feed information like this to the media as a kind of PR campaign.
After all, who better than the Padres to use as the poster child for the need to keep the greedy players in check, not that owners would ever wish to be called greedy?
Remember that they once canceled a World Series and tried to illegally hire replacement players in a failed attempt to shove a salary cap down the players’ collective throats, and there have to be some owners (Jerry Reinsdorf?) who bitterly resent not having said salary cap.
I believe there aren’t many limits to what owners will try to minimize player compensation while industry revenue grows every year.
Sadler
Maybe, it’s always a pretty safe bet to assume that people are corrupt in everything they do but they also had a $280M payroll last year and were a below .500 team
That’s a lot of scratch for a team that attracts more giants and dodger fans than padres fans.
Blue Baron
OK, but money from ticket sales is green no matter which team’s fans are spending it, so it’s unlikely that enters into management’s thinking.
These owners aren’t stupid, so you must assume that they wouldn’t have approved spending at such a level if they couldn’t afford it.
That’s why I said the Padres are a perfect team to use for this purpose.
Sadler
How many jerseys and hats have you bought at an opponent’s stadium?
“These owners aren’t stupid, so you must assume that they wouldn’t have approved spending at such a level if they couldn’t afford it.”
I agree with the premise and disagree with the conclusion.
Very smart people miss revenue projections every single day in every single industry.
They expected to go deep into the playoffs and didn’t. That’s a lot of lost revenue.
Longtimecoming
A. You are living in the past if you think there aren’t more Padres fans in Petco for games now.
B. The ticket prices are the same regardless of who buys them so not sure how your comment makes any sense.
Sadler
Opponent fans aren’t buying merchandise.
They expected to go deep in the playoffs — that’s millions right there in lost revenue.
Blue Baron
But a lot more merchandise is purchased online at sites like fanatics.com than at ballparks anyway, so that revenue dwarfs gameday sales.
Longtimecoming
They buy beer and food though. Also,home team isn’t the only merch sold. Game time merch sales is not where the money is.
They did lose out on post season money so no argument there.
Brew88
They buy A LOT of beer. And I get a percentage. Cheers!
Gwynning
You get a percentage of all the beer I buy? Ok, I’ll save you the last 15% of the mug… if I’m buying, I get the first sips!
Brew88
Bleeech! SD Chicken
YankeesBleacherCreature
If the rules haven’t changed, licensed merch sales revenues at stadiums are distributed evenly among teams. More Aaron Judge jersey sales at YS doesn’t really help out the Yankees.
CaseyAbell
You expect to hear this stuff about teams that aren’t selling any tickets. When you hear it about a team that just sold a record number of tickets, somebody mismanaged pretty badly.
In this case I think the mismanagement was intentional. Peter Seidler is a smart guy but he’s facing serious health issues. I think he wanted to win it all while there was still time for him, to put it gently. So he allowed drunken-sailor spending and now he has to borrow money to cover the drinks.
Funny thing. Cutting payroll could be addition by subtraction. The high-priced stars didn’t get it done. Some younger, hungrier talent might be exactly what this franchise needs to get over the hump. The Padres have been dysfunction junction forever, though, so maybe they’ll keep on disappointing no matter who’s on the roster.
mrkinsm
There is no reason to believe this is mismanagement. I’d borrow a dollar with .02% interest every day if I can invest the dollar I have and make back 4+ x that interest.
whosehighpitch
They are gonna be active trading big contracts this winter.
whosehighpitch
They are gonna be active trading big contracts this winter. Manny and Soto to the Yankees
Gwynning
|_0|_!
YankeesBleacherCreature
Yankees will give the Padres $50MM in cash considerations for a Soto trade. The caveat is they need to sign him to a team-friendly contract first. Who should the check be made out to? *Sorry not sorry I feel ya, dude.
Gwynning
Any GM should listen to any offer, right? We can move Soto for a gimpy-for-’24 Dominguez, Chase Hampton and Roderick Arias.
Grumpofm
Like bleachercreacher says, it’s done all the time, for a variety of reasons. I wonder if the broadcast rights issues that MLB is having might be contributing to this as well? That might be why MLB put their 2 cents in.
SoCalHardBall
yikes, not a good look. That TV deal mess came back to bite them. That and having 369 shortstops
taylor
Big deal, Seidler has that much under his couch cushions…
This one belongs to the Reds
Which he won’t spend on a baseball team losing money.
Gwynning
Which team is losing money?
Blue Baron
None. Not even This One’s poor, destitute Reds.
This one belongs to the Reds
They aren’t taking out a $50 million loan because they are flush with cash.
Gwynning
Having an open $100m Line of Credit is because they *are* flush with cash…
Brew88
Like MJ at a BJ table
This one belongs to the Reds
Lines of credit are based on the perceived value of something, not cash on hand. I might have paid 200k for my house, but if they say it’s worth 350k now, I get a bigger Home Equity LOC on it if I want one.
Simm
Yea but you also have to show you have the income to pay it back. They do t just go appraise and say here you go.
JoeBrady
Having an open $100m Line of Credit is because they *are* flush with cash…
======================
But that’s not what this is. The article says it is a loan. And a lot of posters are making the same mistake. Most companies probably have a some type of credit lines to they don’t go to the time and expense of applying for loans.
But this is loan.
Gwynning
You’re right Joe. When Manfred said “no mas” to the Pads LOC, Gruepner shifted gears and obtained a low interest business loan… something nearly every business has done or will do at some point. The more disingenuous posts have this as a financial burden that the Pads have painted themselves into a corner, and that is simply not true. We could refer to the OP in this thread and say that Seidler could indeed easily pay back this loan if he simply dug through his couch cushions. These loan practices occur frequently, most often to take advantage of local or federal tax breaks. To paint this as a dire situation is to announce that “you” (not you) don’t necessarily understand what businesses (teams included) do. The ultimate, salient point that I intend to highlight is that no team has lost money this year. Everybody league wide is in the black.
SDHotDawg
You’re correct in that many businesses will and have used short-term business loans to make up for short-term cash flow issues. But the vast majority of those businesses are small, independent businesses, not huge companies or even franchisees with tens and even hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. Have they already gone through their Cash Reserves?
martras
Tough to say what payment timing or installments on the TV deal is with MLB and the Padres. Not to mention the fact companies don’t keep tons of cash sitting in a bank account because that’s all taxable. Funding operations costs through short term loans may very well be typical business procedure to balance spikes in cash flow or valleys in revenue. Meh.
foppert1
The point is not a team taking out a loan, the point is taking out a loan to cover payroll. Needing a loan to cover baseline expenses is not the same as needing a loan for new infrastructure or tech.
getrealgone2
Exactly.
Brew’88
the story says “payroll and other expenses”
Blue Baron
That’s what the story says, but we don’t have any way to know if that’s true.
JoeBrady
Needing a loan to cover baseline expenses is not the same as needing a loan for new infrastructure or tech.
===============================
Finally a sensible reply. Generally, you might borrow money to buy the team. Or borrow money to fund infrastructure improvements. If you have a positive cash flow, you generally don’t borrow money to fund operations.
But that said, I doubt anyone in here knows enough about the operations to figure out anything further. The first question to ask is about the timing of the cash inflows and outflows. For the NYY, I believe they started collections from the season ticker holders in maybe December? So it is possible that Seidler is covering his monthly fixed expenses (FO, interest, etc.) from Sept thru Dec by using the loan, and paying off the loan with the season ticket money.
It still sounds sketchy to fund the operations that way, but not impossible.
websoulsurfer
In San Diego you had to renew season tickets by September 15th.
JoeBrady
Does that mean you pay by the 15th? If it does, then borrowing $50M in the same month you get your season ticket money is a bad sign.
OTOH, if the ST money is due on 11/15, for example, then borrowing $50M for two months might be a nothing burger.
Past that, 80% of the comments are pure speculation. One really needs to know the operational cash flow for the $50M to mean anything. I’ve worked for companies that wanted the security of the $50M and wouldn’t mind paying the interest, while other employers would operate off of credit lines and beat me with my own abacus if I had to pay interest.
My pure speculation is that one of the minority owners is bitching about the salaries, and the only way to get heard is to leak information like this. What is the ownership structure like?
Blue Baron
@JoeBrady: More than 80%, probably closer to 100%, of all comments on all subjects on this site are pure speculation.
Brew’88
and very little of the pure speculation is about MLB rumors regarding trades, or trade rumors, or speculation about trades. But I guess it’s okay to talk about other things here too.
BaseballisLife
If it’s anything like it was for the Mets then you had to sign up for your season tickets by a certain date late in the regular season and then had to make your payment within 90 days or your seats were sold.
I can’t say what its like now though, because we haven’t been season ticket holders since 2017.
Blue Baron
@BaseballisLife: I don’t know why people invest in season ticket plans. It’s too easy to buy great seats for any game you want on sites like Stubhub.
SDHotDawg
And between the time you sign up and the time you pay, it’s on the books as — an Account Receivable!
Brew88
@Blue It works for my family and friends. 6 seats shared among 20-30 people a year. I don’t ask $ from anyone just my gift but I do attend about 40 games, no hassle. I think a lot of season ticket holders are similar – used by rotating groups, often businesses. But you also make a good point, though you usually outlay much more ( to middle person) via Stubhub.
Blue Baron
I organized a group that shared a pair of full-season tickets for the Mets from 1987-92. It was fun at first when they were winning, but not so much when they went down the tubes in the early 1990s.
Stubhub is great for 1-4 tickets, and if the home team isn’t winning, you can often get prime seats that wouldn’t be available from the team for below face value, especially if you wait until a few hours before game time.
I visited Pittsburgh in June for a Mets-Pirates series and scored a pair in the front row over the Pirates dugout for one of the games for $120 each. It came to less than $300 even with the fees.
And PNC Park is stunningly beautiful.
Brew88
I’m planning to tour a lot of eastern parks I haven’t been to this next season and PNC is top of my list!
JoeBrady
I did that for a while with the Yankees, with different plans. My goal was always to sell off what I could, and wind up with as many RS tickets as I could arrange. It was fun for a while. But people moved, got married, etc.
Now it is better to just pick a game to go to and wait on SH and get some good value seats.
websoulsurfer
There is no payroll for a MLB team in the 2nd half of September. The loan was taken out during September.
A Padres executive was quoted in the article as saying that the loan was taken out IN SEPTEMBER in anticipation of being needed.
pdxbrewcrew
That they had to take out a $50 M emergency loan to make payroll shows that small market teams CAN’T compete with the big city financial giants.
Brew’88
huh? San Diego is the 8th largest city in the US, ahead of of Dallas, SF, Seattle, Boston, Denver, etc…
Jean Matrac
The city area population numbers are misleading. The Bay Area, where the Giants draw fans, is much larger than the area that the Padres do. Same with the Red Sox. The whole metro area is much larger. The Rangers are in Arlington, not Dallas, and Arlington is located between Dallas and Ft. Worth. The M’s and Rockies don’t have any regional competition like the Padres do. Plus The M’s and Rockies aren’t spending at the level anywhere close to the Padres.
Brew88
and Pads only pro team in town which is huge. Hey I didn’t say Rangers were in Dal. Just listing random city pops.
Jean Matrac
So the fact that all the other cities have MLB teams was just a coincidence?
Brew88
Just a coincidence on my listing, but they are large cities so not surprising they have MLB
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Large city and large market city are two very different things
Brew88
@Cora. Of course. But SD isn’t small market given ownership and fan commitment now in place….I was responding to a post that was misinformed.
Jean Matrac
I agree in principle. Any MLB team with a billionaire owner can’t be regarded as small market. It’s more about how the owner chooses to operate. And it’s not like there’s an equivalent in MLB to the Green Bay Packers, a true small market team, It’s the salary cap and revenue sharing in the NFL that makes that situation passible.
I love how Seidler is willing to spend money. What I don’t like is that he’s a “hands on owner”. IMO a “hands on owner” is equivalent to a meddling owner, and that’s rarely a good thing. To me the ideal situation is an owner like Seidler, who spends, but lets the baseball people run the team, and make the player/personnel decisions.
SDHotDawg
@Brew …
When you hear sports media talk about “market size,” they aren’t talking about population. They’re talking about actual media revenue. That’s what confuses most people.
pdxbrewcrew
San Diego might be the 8th biggest city, but they are the #30 media market.
Blue Baron
@pdxbrewcrew: Or that’s what owners want the fans, players, and media to believe to justify their cheapness.
That’s why the information just so happened to be leaked at the outset of free agency and salary arbitration and negotiation season.
SDHotDawg
Websoulfool has spoken! Now we know the only payroll in the Padres organization is “player payroll.” Apparently, all other employees are actually volunteers and work for free!
pdxbrewcrew
Forbes has the Padres as having lost $53 MM in 2022. And payroll in 2023 was almost $40 MM higher.
DERP!
websoulsurfer
They took out a loan after the final payment for player payroll had already been made. So the loan was not to make payroll even if the media wants you to believe it was. Also, they said that they took out the loan in preparation for needing it later this year. That means they have not yet had to use that money.
Legend of Roy Halladay
Why is the Athletic used as a source for anything? Remember their skull fracture reporting?
tangerinepony
Aren’t the Padres considered to be a small market team? Acting like they’re LA smh
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
I think they’ve passed LA in payroll but maybe I’m wrong on that.
This one belongs to the Reds
That’s what large market fans try to claim.
skullbreathe
Not good.. Look for a wholesale sell-off this winter..
uvmfiji
That Soto trade may produce three future all stars.
El Niño
“may” is doing a lot of work there
Brew88
Or none
Zombie Bukowski
Gore? Highly unlikely.
Wood? The kids starting to K at a very high rate.
Abrams? Maybe.
CardsFan57
A few months of Soto isn’t bringing back all that much. This Bally bankruptcy may have Soto regretting turning down $400 million. Teams have dropping revenue. Salary inflation can’t continue with media revenues dropping for so many teams.
This one belongs to the Reds
That’s why I say any team with a Bally’s deal will not spend a whole lot this offseason. Tony Clark will probably cry collusion when there are a lot of minor league deals for vets or no deal at all.
CardsFan57
The Cardinals still got paid by Bally last season but viewership dropped with the bad season. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Cardinals are also dropped in the coming year.
Jesse Chavez enthusiast
But.. Preller is a genius! Or so I was told in the off-season when I dared to question the decision to pay Darvish and Xander till they were 42 and 41! I feel sorry for the nice Padres fans (and there are plenty of them! There are a lot of passionate and knowledgeable fans that love their team and are fun to conversate with.) But there were also plenty of Padre fans that consistently attacked fans of other teams and other Padres fans that dared to question the front offices decision making! It was so bad it paled in comparison to the trash Mets, Braves, and Dodgers fans talked, and that’s really saying something. I really want to root for them to get their first chip, but it’s so hard when the loud minority are SO loud and toxic.
El Niño
The padres finished 2 games behind the diamondbacks and didn’t have our best player to start the season. Chill out.
Jesse Chavez enthusiast
Tg19
Thats fine, but, Did you read what I wrote? I wasn’t talking about the Padres record. I was justttalking about the horrible contracts he gave out. The record is Irrelevant. You don’t spend close $300m to not make the playoffs at all. And everyone deals with injuries
Brew88
But if their record is irrelevant, why shame them for not making the playoffs?
Jesse Chavez enthusiast
@brew
I wasn’t trying to shame them for missing the playoffs, I was more or less just calling out the front office on some questionable contracts. Sorry if it seemed that way.
@Baron
Because cookies are fantastic, especially in Southern California!
SDHotDawg
@TG19 …
We had a losing record until the last two games of the season. Calling Tatis our “best player is highly debatable. Please don’t be “one of those” fans. Just suck it up and and admit we were terrible, because making excuses is a bad look.
Brew88
Yeah, dude, it’s all cool man
Blue Baron
@Arcia Later: Their first chip? Why are you bringing up cookies?
El Niño
We “were terrible” is also highly debatable. Losing all 12 extra innings games is a statistical anomaly that is impossible to explain. I think it’s a worse look to constantly dump on Preller.
SDHotDawg
No, it really isn’t debatable. And neither is Preller’s performance in 10 years.
AlanZ
every team in baseball, I will give you our $ 10 prospect and $5 million for Juan Soto
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
I thought the Mets were bad
In nurse follars
Lest anyone needs to be reminded that baseball is a business and the games are merely product and the players are simply raw materials.
BaseballisLife
Interesting that the Padres deal with DSG called for $50 million in payments in 2023.
The loan was from MLB so it’s probably related.
CKinSTL
“Business takes out loan, uses money”… what a scoop!
Jean Matrac
“…he gave their pitchers the juiced ball and hitters the dead ball.”
They played with two balls at the same time? I’d love to know how the pitcher threw a juiced ball but the batter swung at a dead one.
Jean Matrac
You’re not to bright if I you inferred that I even suggested that pitchers threw to their own hitters. If you give a pitcher a juiced ball to throw, there’s a hitter (obviously one from the opposing team) then you have a batter to swing at it. So he’s a batter swinging at a juiced ball. How do you decide on who gets what? If Snell is facing Mookie Betts, does he get a juiced ball or a dead one?
The level of manipulation involved to accomplish getting all the good pitchers juiced balls to throw, and all the good hitters getting dead balls to swing, at boggles the mind. It’s patently ridiculous. I’ve heard of some really stupid conspiracy theories, but yours’ takes the cake.
Brew88
But not as crazy as folks believing 10,500 meteorologists are in cahoots simultaneously manipulating data from 120,000 met stations distributed systematically across the entire planet to fake global warming.
Jean Matrac
Both are muy muy loco.
cpdpoet
“They played with two balls at the same time? I’d love to know how the pitcher threw a juiced ball but the batter swung at a dead one.”
See Gashouse Gorillas v Tea Totallers c1946, it’s theory I have been working on for decades…
BaseballisLife
Just did a little math. The Braves had $578 million in revenue. The Blue Jays had $530 million.
They had non-baseball expenses between $131 and $134 million.
Neither were in the top 5. The bottom 3 were between $250 million and $270 million. That puts median revenue at around $440 million.
Its been reported that the Padres will be revenue sharing payers. That means that their revenue has to be greater than the median.
So I’m confused about how they could be losing money
VegasSDfan
Didn’t it say cash flow problems? Do you know what cash flow is?
Basically, there is a point in time when you don’t have enough money to pay your bills.
Sure, overall they are making money. Which is why they requested a loan, in which they pay the loan back as more revenue comes in
BaseballisLife
You don’t pay much attention, do you? To have cash flow issues you have to have revenue to expense issues.
You also missed the place in the article where the Padres official said they took out the loan because they anticipated they may need it at some point this year. That presupposes that they have not yet had the need.
Just so you know, I was a partner in one of the largest accounting firms in the N.E. for over 40 years. I know just a little about finance.
Jean Matrac
No, cash flow issues aren’t revenue issues, they’re timing issues. When you need to pay X amount at the first of the month, but expect the revenue that will cover that amount, to come middle of the month, that’s a cash flow issue. It’s SOP for businesses to borrow for this type of situation all the time.
websoulsurfer
Baseball is a cash business. There are no accounts receivables including for local TV and radio deals. Tickets are paid for in advance. Advertising is paid for in advance. Sponsorships are paid for in advance.
The Padres far surpassed expected ticket sales even though season tickets were sold out in advance of the season starting.
The loan was taken out in SEPTEMBER after all payroll is completed for the season.
A Padres exec was quoted as saying the loan was taken out in anticipation of an expense that is still to come which makes sense since MLB teams have very few expenses after September.
Blue Baron
@BaseballIsLife: What’s your source for those numbers? The teams certainly haven’t opened their books, so I question the veracity.
BaseballisLife
The Braves and Blue Jays have opened up their books. They are owned by publicly traded corporations. They have to by law.
MLB reported total revenue for the sport and Manfred said that no team had revenue below $250 million in 2022.
In the public hearings in the Nevada Senate the A’s reported they had revenue of $270 million in 2022.
Did that help?
BrianStrowman9
You don’t have to have revenue to expense issues to have cash flow issues. That’s asinine.
I can report $2MM of revenue and $1.2MM in expenses on my income statement for the quarter, but if I’m only collecting half of that within 90 days, then I’m operating at a cash flow deficit.
websoulsurfer
If you HAVE $2 million in revenue and $1.2 million in expenses in any given quarter then you don’t have a cash flow issue for that quarter.
Baseball is a cash business. Meaning there are no accounts receivable. Even the local TV deals pay in advance of the month of games. Teams are not collecting money 90 days later. In fact most money comes into their coffers in advance. Season tickets, Local TV and radio, advertising and sponsorships.
Maybe the Padres anticipate needing cash in 2024, but since they took out the loan in September after all payroll for 2023 was already paid, they didn’t do so for that.
Blue Baron
@BaseballisLife: Yes, thanks.
BaseballisLife
In MLB you do. Baseball is not a business that has any accounts receivable. They are not reporting revenue that is expected to come in later because other than what comes through MLB itself all their revenue is recieved prior to or as expenses happen.
BaseballisLife
Maybe I should have read down 1 post before answering him because you had it covered already Web.
SDHotDawg
@websoulfool …
You don’t have the first clue what you’re talking about when it comes to media contracts. The only “advance” payment is the initial fee paid when the contract is negotiated. Remaining payments can be set up monthly, quarterly, or whatever is agreed upon. (Yes, I have a little experience in broadcast media).
Please stop spouting your ignorance as “fact.” Some folks might actually believe you, and spread the virus!
Deleted Userr
That’s exactly what he’s going for.
websoulsurfer
Let me break this down for you. I read 3 different sports business journals daily and have for several decades They all said the same thing.
The first payment of the year for the Padres was the day before the season started and the last one was supposed to be September 1st.
When DSG defaulted the Athletic reported the same thing I am saying. All MLB TV deals with DSG were set up the same way and were monthly payments. ALL were in advance of games delivered.
We know that as a certainty and not just because it was reported in the media because of the bankruptcy proceedings.
Frank Lopez-Balboa is a lifetime family friend. We have talked about this situation many times this year. If you were in broadcast media you know who he is without even having to go to Google. I have been involved in the game long enough to have learned a few things over the years also.
So, you can either get educated or get muted. Choice is yours. I will still be correct.
Deleted Userr
Lol he did it again! Name dropping his so-called connections!
He has me muted. How about you pick a random Padres sportswriter and claim he’s your cousin or something?
Blue Baron
@thelegendaryharambe: Has the possibility occurred to you that people know people? It does happen, and depending on what you do and where you do it, you might cross paths with people who have some notoriety.
It doesn’t need to be a big deal and it doesn’t make one person better than another, but it does happen.
Deleted Userr
websoulsurfer sure doesn’t.
Blue Baron
How do you know?
SDHotDawg
LOL! It’s funny watching you squirm when you get called out on your BS. Congratulations on being literate, although I seriously doubt you read “3 sports business journals daily.” [logical fallacy #1]
Firstly, you said ALL media contracts were the same. They’re not. That suggests you really don’t know anything about contracts in general, and specifically media contracts.
Secondly, you falsely claimed MLB teams don’t have any Accounts Receivable, just to try and add some sort of weight to your initial argument. That is laughable on its face. And, kind of pathetic.
In a further attempt to prop yourself up, you name-dropped the VP of a media company (mostly radio), and further claimed “anybody in media should know his name.” As if that wasn’t enough, you claimed he was a “lifetime family friend!” [logical fallacies #2 AND #3]
My education is just fine, thank you. Fortunately, I don’t suffer from any clinical pathologies that force me to be right about all things at all times, to the point of harassing anybody who gets between me and my podium (or, is it an altar?).
You’d be much better off if you were capable of discussion, and dropped the arrogant know-it-all lectures. If you’ll excuse me, I still have four mour journals to read, and White Paper on Statistical Weighting to review.
SDHotDawg
LOL! Great idea, but I couldn’t pull it off. I’m too honest, and I’d get caught.
SDHotDawg
@BlueBaron …
Just so you know, websoulsurfer has been been making claims like this for years. Usually, it’s to prop up some argument he’s trying to put forward, and sometimes it’s just to stir the poop.
Blue Baron
OK
Deleted Userr
Because he’s been caught multiple times. Claiming someone relevant told him something that ended up being patently false. Accidentally commenting from the “wrong” account. Linking an article to back up one of his claims that doesn’t even mention the issue being debated. Muting people when he gets backed into a corner. You name it.
BaseballisLife
MLB teams don’t have AR. Not for any area of their business that I can find.
Dont believe me do a search of jobs for MLB teams. Then show us even one AR position.
I did a quick search of all the California, NY, Florida, and Texas teams plus my childhood favorites then the Braves and Blue Jays I found all kinds of accounting positions listed from intern to AP, but not one AR. You would think that out of 14 teams that one would have an AR position.
SDHotDawg
Yes, they do. That was already addressed in detail by another poster. A “quick search” on google looking for a job as an AR clerk is how you reached your definitive conclusion?
Jeez. Do you not consider season ticket plans that are paid over time to be AR? Do you not consider the rent/lease payments of the concourse vendors to be AR?
Deleted Userr
Used his BaseballisLife to come to his rescue rather than Pads Fans lol
Brew88
This is always entertaining!
SDHotDawg
@legendary…
I’m just astounded at the utter stupidity of trying to argue that ML organizations (or almost any transactional business!) don’t have any Receivables. That’s a real “wow” moment.
BaseballisLife
Was a season ticket holder for Mets for 34 years and Yankees for 27. Neither had payment plans for season tickets. You paid by a certain date or you didn’t have tickets. No AR.
Teams have hundreds of employees. If they had an AR dept you would think that one of 14 teams would have a position open. Especially at the only time of year where they might have outstanding balances.
Vendors might have lease payments but not to the team. Companies like Delaware West and Aramark hold all the licenses and sublet to vendors. But you are right that someone has to handle the accounting for the 15% of the gross that the team gets from all sales by vendors. They don’t just trust Aramark to cut a check for the right amount.
That is still not the amount of cash flow problem that would require a $50 million loan to cover.
I’m in Florida so I stint read all your local publications daily and had to look up what capital expenditures the Padres are making. I saw Gallagher Square improvements for $20 million and the team completing the purchase of Tailgate Park from the city of San Diego for $35.1 million. Those are the types of things that could require a $50 million loan and certainly put a crimp in cash flow.
Looks like you are losing your tailgate parking for a $1.5 billion development so that is probably not a good thing to bring up to Padres fans.
Deleted Userr
For the record I don’t know or care if the Padres or any other team has accounts receivable. All I care about is that people know the truth about Pads Fans/websoulsurfer and call him on it. He can’t mute everyone.
SDHotDawg
“You paid by a certain date…”
That is the very definition of an Account Receivable.
Why is that so difficult to understand?
Season tix to the Mets AND Yankees? For a total of 61 years? Ummm … sure.
BaseballisLife
Other than vendors, you really haven’t come up with any receivables that teams might have and I’m pretty sure that is digital and the 15% that Aramark or Delaware North or Compass Group pays the team is automatically transferred as the transaction happens. Someone has to do the accounting for those transactions but its not a typical AR situation. There is no collections for MLB teams.
Teams don’t have leases for multiple vendors. They have one master lease held by a company like Aramark or Delaware North or Compass Group and that company handles subleasing to vendors like local restaurants. At Citi Field that is Aramark. At loanDepot Park its Compass Group. In San Diego its Delaware North.
SDHotDawg
@legendary ….
Most people couldn’t care less, including me. But, when websoulfool tried to support a weak argument (opinion, actually) with BS instead of facts, including the ignorant claim that ML organizations don’t have Accounts Receivable, it needed to be called out.
BaseballisLife
I was a partner in an accounting firm. We had season tickets for every major sports team in the NYC area. Mets, Yankees, Islanders, Rangers, Knicks, Nets, Giants, and Jets for nearly all of my tenure. We are talking about baseball and I am a baseball fan so I mentioned the NYC teams.
Unlike an AR situation where a company is trying to collect payment for a service already rendered or a product delivered, you either paid by that date or the tickets were sold to the next person in line. MLB teams have no debtors.
That you don’t know what AR actually means but continue to argue the point is starting to be funny.
Deleted Userr
Yeah and I bet you also sat next to Dan Lozano on a plane and A. J. Preller on another plane and have a realtor sister who sold Freddy Galvis a house in SD right?
SDHotDawg
Then, you should do yourself a favor and look harder. To say that there is no Collections proves there is no AR is just ignorant. As CNichols already pointed out, but you studiously ignored, the Braves published financial statement from June of 2023 included – are you ready? – $54 Million in Accounts Receivable.
This conversation, on this topic is over.
SDHotDawg
I’m sorry, but I don’t believe you were ever a partner in an accounting firm. In fact, I don’t even believe you were an accountant, ever ran a business, or ever took a basic business accounting class. I accept that I may be wrong, but the manner in which you’ve made your case, including terminology, verbiage, etc, doesn’t scream “accounting professional” to me. Definitely not CPA.
Like I said – done with this.
SDHotDawg
LOL!! Yeah, it’s pretty obvious I don’t know what AR means.
Blue Baron
People can and do buy ticket plans for multiple teams, so there probably was overlap of the 24 years and 27 years.
A friend and I had a Sunday ticket plan for the Mets from 1999-2007 and a 15-game plan for the Yankees from 1999-2009.
As a result, we were able to buy tickets for game 2 of the 2000 World Series at Yankee Stadium and games 3 and 5 at Shea Stadium.
SDHotDawg
@Blue Baron…
Thank you. I stand corrected. It seems odd, but New Yorkers …
Other markets with two ML teams are Chicago, LA, the SF bay area. Honestly, this is the first I’ve heard of anybody having season ticket plans to both teams in a market. Not just due to the expense, but typically they hate each other!
Blue Baron
Why not do it if you love baseball?
Contrary to what you might see on social media, it’s not required that fans of one team “hate” another team, eg Mets fans and Yankees fans.
Personally, I would think people outgrow that sort of thing by adulthood if not earlier.
As a Mets fan, I laugh at Yankees fans in good fun when the Yankees lose, but as a New Yorker, I always pull for a New York team to beat a team from elsewhere.
BaseballisLife
There are no AR departments for major league teams that I can find. I looked at job listings for 14 teams and while they had openings in accounting, none were in AR. Just to make sure I called and reached HR for both teams here in Florida to ask if they were hiring for AR. Both said they didn’t have an AR department.
You can try to continue this conversation if you want. You will still be wrong.
BaseballisLife
You claimed you were done but commented again, this time only with attempts at insults
What is obvious is that you don’t know what you are talking about and when called out on it you’re only comeback is to try to insult the persons in question. The pattern in clear.
I have yet to see any evidence of their being an AR department for MLB teams. I did a fair amount of research just to make sure including looking up job listings and calling teams in the state where I reside.
You made up examples that are not actual debts owed to a team that are in arrears, which is what AR deals with.
Now I have had enough of this conversation and am actually going to end it.
Deleted Userr
Strike that. My favorite Pads Fans/websoulsurfer moment was when he suggested Manny Machado’s wife would divorce him if he left the Padres.
mlbtraderumors.com/2023/02/manny-machado-set-feb-1…
SDHotDawg
Please stop taking things so literally. Good grief.
SDHotDawg
So there has to be a “department” to have receivables? LOL! I’ve already told you TWICE I’m done with you. You don’t have a clue what you’re talking about, yet you persist. Which leads me to one conclusion …
You’ve now completely outed yourself as a liar! How many screen names do you have, Ryan?
Deleted Userr
Ryan and Pads Fans (whatever account they are currently on) hate each other.
SDHotDawg
Keep talking. Because the more you do, the more obvious it becomes that you are completely ignorant of basic business practices and simple accounting terms! LOL!!
For example, AR only deals with debts that are in arrears? OMG, dude. Wow.
SDHotDawg
@legendary …
I know they aren’t the same, but no matter how many screen names Ryan uses, he ALWAYS outs himself. He can’t help it. The last time we interacted, he claimed to be an actual “statistician” or somesuch. So I asked him to give me the meaning of a commonly used statistical coefficient, and he had a freaking meltdown. It was hilarious!
Deleted Userr
Pads Fans accuses everyone who disagrees with him of being Ryan. So unless it’s one of those situations like from the aforementioned Family Guy episode where Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh are both Fred Savage in disguise then they are likely not the same guy.
websoulsurfer
Ryan, what is a wow moment is that you think that MLB teams actually have money owed to them for goods or services that have already been delivered or used but not yet paid for by their customers. No one gets to buy the services that are sold by a baseball team on credit issued by the team. No one.
Baseball is a cash business. Everything is paid for in advance. From hot dogs to tickets to TV contracts. Even season tickets are paid in full prior to the season starting. The Padres are not calling you up on the phone or mailing you a bill because you have not made your payment and the season is already over.
So please, go back to helping insurance companies gouge the public with their rates.
websoulsurfer
No Ryan It’s not the definition of accounts receivables. Accounts receivables would be if the team gave you credit and you paid for your tickets after the games had already been played. That you are having such a hard time understanding what accounts receivables actually are is one more indication that you need to go back to your actuary job and leave business to people that have actually participated in owning one.
websoulsurfer
Baseball, Ryan cannot ever admit he is wrong. He will continue the argument in perpetuity, He will bring up your posts from years ago that he apparently has bookmarked or saved in a spreadsheet. He will make attempts to insult you.
The only real solution is to mute him each and every time you find a new account that he is posting from. In this thread there are two. SDhotdawg and LegendaryHarambe.
websoulsurfer
Now you are claiming that both you and legendaryharambe are not in actuality the same person and not Ryan. That is an even bigger wow moment Ryan. Did you forget to take your medication?.
websoulsurfer
Now you get to join the rest of your accounts in mute Ryan.
SDHotDawg
LOL!! The coward websoulfool muted me AFTER he responded with more BS than an Oklahoma ranch. That speaks volumes about his credibility!
Deleted Userrrr
Another solution is to not be a jackwagon to other commenters, stop posting dubious comments and then digging your heels in even harder when you get called on them and stop using burner accounts to “agree” with yourself.
SDHotDawg
Apparently websoulfool only looks at the pictures in those “three sports business journals” he claims to read every day. He should take a few minutes and get himself a working definition of accounts receivable. In fact, maybe he should ask his “lifelong media friend” about the “AR department” at a typical radio station (Hint: there isn’t one! And they aren’t paid in advance!).
Honestly, I freaking LOVE making arrogant blowhards expose themselves to the point they run and hide! It’s like a civic duty. 😉
BaseballisLife
I don’t see any comments that show a link to an AR position at any MLB team. I haven’t seen anything that any MLB team provides customers with credit. They have no need for AR.
BaseballisLife
It is obvious.
SDHotDawg
There are no job listings for an “AR position,” therefore there’s no such thing. Do you have the self-awareness to understand how thoroughly stupid that sounds?
Deleted Userr
@SdHotDawg Now he’s claiming (from his outinleftfield account) that his company is involved in the construction of a tailgate park outside of Petco Park.
mlbtraderumors.com/2023/11/padres-decline-two-year…
SDHotDawg
@legendary …
Jeez. So now he’s a contractor? What is that, the fourth or fifth “profession” he’s tried to claim? I just don’t understand people like that.
SDHotDawg
@legendary…
Actually, they’re the same type who threaten to mute you when they get called out for posting obvious lies and making up their own “facts.” Like that’s supposed to hurt your feelings or something? Crazy.
Deleted Userr
What I don’t get is the threatening to mute people thing or commenting “muted’ when you mute them. Like, if you wanna mute someone just do it and move on.
Pads Fans’ profession, the team he roots for and where he lives depends on which account he is commenting from. He has forgotten which account he was on at least twice.
SDHotDawg
@websoul …
Does Ryan pay rent to live in your head? Most of us either ignore him or use him for entertainment.
SDHotDawg
@thelegendary …
I don’t get the multiple accounts thing. That’s got to take a lot of work to keep them straight. And for what purpose? Just to F with people? To me this is entertainment, not work!
Deleted Userr
And commenters who are trying to F with other commenters typically aren’t overzealous with the mute button like web is. Cuz what’s the point in doing that if you can’t see their reaction. Right?
JoeBrady
So I’m confused about how they could be losing money
==========================
Based purely on the numbers you provided, IF their revenue was the median of $440M, with non-BB expenses of $134M, and using Cots $296M in payroll expenses, then they made $10M, before the CBT. Would the CBT be maybe $44M?
Disclaimer-I don’t know what their revenue is.
BaseballisLife
Cots may include projected fines?
Simm
You are using the tax number, actual payroll cost was about 255m. Tax number which isn’t cash was closer to 300m
Zombie Bukowski
Not many are taking into account the RSN deal and the impact on the Padres cash flow. 60 million a year in lost revenue?
Seidler’s worth a couple billion dollars. The interest accumulated on that balance would cover payroll annually.
BaseballisLife
What lost revenue? The Padres lost one payment from DSG. MLB covered 80% of that last payment. The next day the Padres were back on the air with new contracts in place. They also were the first team to be allowed to sell local, single-team access to MLB.tv
This one belongs to the Reds
Being what they are worth on paper and liquid cash they can come up with are usually two entirely different things.
websoulsurfer
Do you pay for your tickets AFTER the game is over? Do you pay for your MLB.tv after the season is over? Did you pay for that hot dog or beer at the game after you consumed it?
Baseball doesn’t have accounts receivable. If there is revenue, its liquid.
CNichols
MLB teams definitely do have accounts receivable. If you look at the Braves’ public financials from June of 2023 they had $54 million in AR at that time and they had $70M on Dec 2022.
Even in some of the examples you use there are accounts receivable. If the team receives money from licensing or a TV or streaming deal, before that money is paid it’s an account receivable. They have season ticket holders on payment plans with money owed in future months which is an account receivable.
SDHotDawg
LOL! That’s just another example of websoulfool getting caught with his pants down ( just so we can hear him?) In a minute, Pads Fans will show up to “prove” he was right!
Fenway 1
I am curious what everyone thinks so who is the better player? Bogaerts or G Torres.
egrossen
Bogaerts
Brew88
Bogaerts has a WAR of about 4 per year in career, Torres about 2.8
In 2023Bogey had 4.4 WAR, Torres 2.9
Fenway 1
Bogey all day! I just feel like all these Yankee fans actually think gleyber is better
JoeBrady
Better player is Bogaerts.
Better contract is Torres.
thefallensoldier
And so many padres fans were so sure they weren’t going to trade Soto. Future cub
User 2079935927
The Astros get their loans from the Firm of
Dewey Chetum and Howe.
Brew88
I dewey miss click n clack
User 2079935927
I think 2 things nessicated the loan
#1 Ballys saying audios
#2 Ownership thought for sure they headed to the playoffs and they took on those salaries.
Jean Matrac
I think those are reasonable assumptions.
websoulsurfer
The loans were taken out in September.
DSG defaulted on one payment of $10 million at the end of May. The one that was due to the Padres FOR the month of June. They had already made 2 payments to the Padres out of a total of 6. MLB paid 80% of the payment as they had said they would when DSG filed for bankruptcy. The very next day the Padres were back on the air under newly signed deals with every carrier that used to carry their broadcasts. They didn’t sell their broadcast rights to DIRECTV, ATT, Spectrum, FUBO, and Cox for $0. On those new contracts they are receiving 100% of the money instead just the 20% they got when DSG owned their broadcast rights. Then the Padres started selling single team packages for MLB.tv without a blackout for local viewers By the All Star Break they had sold more than 250k of those subscriptions at $19.99 per month. Not sure how much of that MLB kept, but for sake of argument, lets say MLB took a 20% cut. That means the Padres were getting $4 million per month from that alone.
Payroll for 2023 was already paid. No need to take a loan to cover something that was already paid.
Rsox
The Padres drew 3.2 million in attendance and it wasn’t enough to cover payroll. The top 3 payrolls from last season went a combined 239-247 and all 3 failed to make the playoffs while 4 of the bottom third teams in payroll not only made the playoffs but one made it to the World Series. Baseball is a fundamentally broken game in bigger ways than we realize
This one belongs to the Reds
I think a lot of people realize it, while others have had their head in the sand.
Brew88
I’m glad that success isn’t guaranteed to the highest spenders, but it’s sort of sad that 15 of the last 16 WS winners were top 8 payroll teams. Go Dbacks ! though
Jean Matrac
I would have been okay with the D’backs winning, but was rooting for Bochy and the Rangers. Only because the Rangers have never won a WS before and the D’backs have. Plus the D’backs have so much young talent that I think they’ll get another chance soon enough.
Brew88
Yeah, hard not to root for Boch
websoulsurfer
Padres revenue was over $440 million. Payroll was $248 million. IF their non-baseball operations expenses were close to what it was for the Braves, then it was around $130 million.
The loan was taken out in September, after the last of payroll is paid. The article quoted a Padres exec as saying it was taken out in anticipation of needing it, not for a specific expense in 2023.
padam
Steve Cohen navigating to his Zelle account.
CardsFan57
The Cardinals had a horrible record in one run games. Were they screwed over too?
websoulsurfer
#1 – If they took out a loan in September, it wasn’t to cover payroll and other expenses for 2023. That has already been paid by the time they took out the loan.
#2 – The article quotes a Padres exec as saying the loan was taken out to cover future expenses. Something that hasn’t happened yet.
#3 – Are people really that stupid that they don’t realize #1 and #2?
This one belongs to the Reds
Doesn’t prove that a loan for these other expenses was needed because they overextended on payroll earlier in the year.
websoulsurfer
WHAT other expenses? Did you READ the article in the Athletic? Did you SEE Greupner’s comment? Did you READ Acee’s article this morning? Even he says this is not out of the ordinary and that its not related to payroll nor is it something the Padres did because they found out it they needed more money at the end of the season. It was planned since before the season started. sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/padres/story/2023-…
Shawn W.
Scott Boras and Ohtani’s agent both look at list of teams.
Crosses out “Padres”.
Simm
Nah, they look at that and think padres will spend even if they need to borrow to spend. Players contracts are guaranteed so they don’t care where the money comes from.
joew
“…After all, the Padres took many by surprise with their aggressive spending over the past few years, showing that a so-called “smaller market” team can indeed compete with the financial giants…”
Apparently it proves they cannot at least not for long. I was skeptical. I’m not even sure I’d consider them small market.. but certainly not to LAD, NYY level. Its a big gamble possibly throwing away the teams future if things go south.
If they would have made it deep into the playoffs I bet they would quite a bit better off going into 2024.
Brew’88
And LA and NY are the only markets allowed to outspend most of the others? That is what was (and still is) killing the game.
I’m not sure your “it” proves anything. Whatever IT is. The Pads are spending according to a plan, which is only deemed aggressive if you think they’re spending beyond their means, which according to their owner Seidler they are not.
Ownership is committed to winning and Padre fans are lucky in this regard. But there is a contingent of fans, media, other owners, who seem to want them to fail. Perhaps the truth behind the frothing criticism I read here in these posts is that fans from other teams are just jealous. I’m a fan of another team and I’m a little envious, but also impressed by Seidler. So many teams have ownership (also billionaires) that just puts a product out there to make as much money as possible, winning is secondary.
joew
They can spend what they want, go for it.
I doubt their plan was to take a 50M loan just to cover payroll. The could be in trouble. More so if they wanted the 100m but was only ‘allowed’ half that. They were already in the red entering the season.
the 2023 payroll was/is more than the yankees and 2024 is projected to be 220m as it stands at the moment. Trades and such would obviously change that (ref: cots)
If the owners are okay with being in the red then who are we to judge. Hopefully they do well soon to make it worth it.
Brew’88
in Kevin Acee’s article posted this morning in the SD Union Tribune “A Padres source said a loan was part of the team’s financial plans from the beginning of the year”
sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/padres/story/2023-…
Acee isn’t exactly a friend of the Padres either, so for him to backtrack and state this is news I guess.
Fine to question now Padre leadership about the loan being planned ahead of time. But they were open about their plans long before Leo wrote this story.
SDHotDawg
Haven’t read that yet, but it should certainly change the tone of the conversation regarding the team’s finances. It still seems odd, but …
Simm
What we don’t know is what their plans are to do with the money. Perhaps that plan on extending Soto or going after Ohtani and needed additional cash to give them a big signing bonus. Either way it was planned and not a reaction to coming up short for payroll this year. Besides be the time they got the loan they had already paid the players this year.
joew
@Brew Interesting read thanks.
Really sounds like they don’t have a long term plan and just throwing money at it. Hopefully I am wrong.
joew
@simm it was mentioned that the money was to cover the current obligations to pay the current players for their time late in the season. Not new contracts for extensions or new signings.
It is also mentioned some where that the Padres are possibly looking at dropping a large chunk of payroll. their current 2024 projections are pretty high with the current roster and they have holes to fill.
2023 40man pay roll i think was the highest in the league but i don’t recall off the top of my head.
Simm
It doesn’t clearly say it was for players payroll. Players final check was sept 15th, loan was on sept 18th. They don’t take IOU’s. It’s possible some of the money will be used for other personnel payroll that aren’t players. Also said this was always part of the plan. Nobody really knows exactly what the money was used for or if it has even been used yet. Clearly stats cash flow, which may be used for things now or later.
joew
@simm It does say payroll but it isn’t exclusive to.
Paydays used to be twice a month normally unless the team and the player make other arrangements. Assuming that is still true then they could be making a payment today if that is what the contract stated.
really though, i suppose it doesn’t matter, they’ll do what they want 🙂
User 2079935927
Question to any Padre fan. Does Ted Lietner still do radio play by play?
Having live in the OC and now Long Beach. I listened to the Mighty 690 and 1090. Thanks to Lee “Hacksaw” Hamiton. Blacks Beach I have 10 opens phone lines. Sound off
Panasquitos, You’re next.
Brew’88
He no longer does Padre games. He still does other sports, including Aztecs basketball games. Like him or dislike him, his Petco tribute to long-time Padre announcer Jerry Coleman (his mentor) was as classy as it gets.
dvmin98
He retired. Voice of my childhood, along with Jerry. Always get nostalgic when I hear him.
REtzler
Could be related to the implosion of the Bally TV deal too
dvmin98
Holy crap! A billionaire takes out a loan to avoid using liquid assets!!! The horror. Probably the very first time this has ever happened!!!
SportsFan0000
Just a few short points since I am very busy.
1) 3.2M Padres attendance./ ran numbers on gross revenues
2) Add TV shared national revenues and local TV revenues
3) Subtract debt service for purchasing Padres(monthly/yearly)
4) Subtract salaries, draws, bonuses not publicly known for Ownership group and others
4) Yes, Padres would be pushing their “break even” limits this year
with salaries and any luxury tax fees.
5) Clearly, the Padres were counting on making the playoffs and the extra revenues they get for playoffs games. But they missed it and sat home.
6) That is probably why they needed to get a loan/draw against future revenues etc.
7) MLB has already publicly “called out” the Padres for their high spending.
8) Ownership/Labor Union Negotiations are on the horizon.
Even if Padres Ownership thinks they can afford to carry small loses to compete,
MLB and other Owners may not want the Padres “raising the bar” for other small and mid market teams spending and then getting hit over the head with it in future labor negotiations.
9) Padres would have been wiser to line up contingency lines of credit/financing before the season started to keep a lower profile if they ever had to use it.
Doing it in the last months of the season, was very bad form, embarrassed MLB and the league and, apparently, trigged a response from MLB Commish who is the voice piece of the other Owners.