Marc Narducci spent 37 years covering all sports for The Philadelphia Inquirer before retiring in July 2021. He covered everything from high school sports to the Phillies winning the World Series and the Eagles winning the Super Bowl. A lifelong southern New Jersey resident, he remains a freelance writer and broadcaster. Once again, Marc reached out to see if MLB Trade Rumors would be interested in publishing his Hall of Fame ballot. I am happy to do it and hope it can be an interesting topic of debate for our readers. Here’s Marc…
This was an extremely difficult baseball Hall of Fame ballot because it causes debate over those who prioritize longevity over others who place emphasis on shorter-term excellence.
Before going into the ballot, a little bit about the philosophy of this voter.
First off, I won’t criticize anybody’s ballot. There are many different opinions on what a Hall of Fame player should be and that is fine.
As stated last year at MLBtraderumors.com and in also in 2021, I have not voted for those associated with steroids.
As one can see from the comments sections, there are many of you who have disagreed and that’s fine. I’m not here to try to convince anybody to change his or her mind. This is just the way I feel, how the steroid era put such a stain on the game.
I have also not voted for Carlos Beltran, who admittedly was the mastermind of the 2017 Houston Astros sign-stealing scandal. Those actions cost him his job as a manager and for now, this vote.
Again, I can see people who think this is crazy to keep such an accomplished player off the ballot. I’m not here to attempt to convince anybody either way, just to say this is what went into my voting.
I don’t think all the Astros should be punished, but that’s another story for another day.
Now, for the ballot.
There are two holdovers who I voted for last year and we will start there.
Helton, now in his sixth year on the ballot, is close to the finish line. He received 72.2% of the votes. Just a refresher, a player needs 75% of the votes. For those who didn’t see last year’s story, we’ll reiterate his case.
The negative perception is that he was a product of playing his entire career at Coors Field. The splits were significant home and away.
Yet his .287/.386/.469 slash line on the road was impressive, but it did pale in comparison to his numbers at Coors – .345/441/.607.
His career line was .316/414/.539.
While the sabermetrics community may scoff at batting average, it takes a lot to hit .300 for a season, let alone a career. Last season just nine players with the required 502 plate appearance hit .300.
In 2000, Helton won a batting title hitting .372.
Here were his splits that season – home: .391/.484/.758. Away: .353/.441/633.
He was a first baseman who wasn’t known for his power, but he still hit 369 home runs and had 1,406 RBI, while playing all 17 seasons for the Rockies.
Helton was a five-time All-Star, a four-time Silver Slugger winner and a three-time Gold Glove recipient.
It’s more than enough to put him on this ballot.
Wagner is in his ninth year on the ballot and keeps moving closer. (How a person fares on other ballots doesn’t impact this vote, but it is good to note how close or far somebody is from being elected).
Wagner last year earned 68.1% of the votes.
The two knocks against Wagner are his low innings total and his postseason struggles.
Both are valid points.
Wagner pitched just 903 innings. His postseason production, even though it only consisted of 11 1/3 innings over 14 appearances, was poor to say the least. He had a 10.03 ERA, although Wagne did convert all three save opportunities.
His positives outweigh the negatives.
In looking for a HOF player, I like to see excellence. Wagner’s 11.9 strikeouts per nine innings (minimum of 750 innings pitched) is the best in MLB history.
Wagner had 422 saves, and an impressive save percentage (86%). His career 2.31 ERA and 187 ERA+ are second best among HOF relievers. Only Mariano Rivera (2.21 ERA, and 205 ERA+) is better in both categories.
The newcomers
There won’t be much convincing to do here. Beltre’s career 93.5 rWAR is surpassed by just two HOF third basemen – Mike Schmidt (106.8) and Eddie Matthews (96.0).
Here were Beltre’s career numbers – .286/339/.480 for his career with 3,166 hits, 477 home runs, 1707 RBI and a 116 OPS+. One thing that is interesting is that he was just a four-time All-Star. He won five Gold Gloves, four Silver Sluggers and was a Top 10 MVP finisher six times.
The only question with Beltre is whether he will be a unanimous choice.
Here is where the debate starts. The knock against Mauer is that while he was an excellent catcher, he only played the position for a decade. Due to concussions from catching, he moved to first base for the final five seasons. He caught 70 or more games eight times. In total he caught 921 games, making 885 starts as a catcher.
In those 10 seasons he hit .323/405/.469 with a 135 OPS+.
When somebody does something historical, the feeling here is that it should add to his HOF candidacy. Mauer is the only catcher to win three batting titles, in 2006, 2008 and 2009. In those three years, he caught 120, 139 and 109 games respectively. He batted .347 in 2006, .328 in 2008 and .365 in 2009.
During those first 10 seasons, he was a six-time All-Star, won an MVP (in 2009) and finished in the Top 10 four times. Mauer also earned five Silver Slugger awards and three Gold Gloves.
Is that enough production in a decade of work?
Due to the demands of the position, we think so.
Plus, how much did the toll of catching and the injuries contribute to the decline after he switched positions?
His final five seasons were well below HOF worthy – .278/.359/.388 with a 105 OPS+. Never a big home run hitter, he hit 38 of his career 143 home runs in the final five seasons.
Still, even with the decline, here are his career statistics – .306/.388/.439 with a 124 OPS+.
Only eight HOF catchers have a higher career rWAR than Mauer (55.2).
He certainly did enough in his years as a catcher to make this ballot.
The longevity issue is what hurts Utley. Utley had a five-year stretch that was definitely HOF standard. From 2005-2009, he hit .301/.388/535 and averaged 29.2 home runs. 110.6 runs, 101.4 RBI, 151 games and 675 plate appearances. His fWAR average for those five years was an astonishing 7.7.
During this span Utley earned four of his six All-Star appearances.
The Phillies made the playoffs the final three of those seasons, winning the World Series in 2008 and losing to the NY Yankees in the 2009 World Series. Utley hit five home runs in the 2009 series, which is tied for the most in MLB history. Reggie Jackson in 1977 and George Springer in 2017 also hit five.
He had other strong seasons, but none to match this five-year average.
His career numbers, especially for a second baseman were strong – .275/.358/.465 and a 117 OPS+. He had 1,103 runs and 1,025 RBI. Will the fact that he had fewer than 2,000 hits (1,885) hurt Utley?
Probably in the eyes of some, but he ended up being a six-time All-Star and earning four Silver Slugger Awards.
Only 10 HOF second basemen have a higher rWAR than Utley (64.5). Only four HOF second basemen have more home runs than Utley (259).
Injuries caught up to Utley, but he was more than a five-year wonder. Even after 2009, he would make two other All-Star teams and from 2010-2014 had an average OPS+ of 116.
Utley played the game hard, was a quiet leader of during the greatest run in Phillies history when they qualified for the playoffs five consecutive seasons 2007-2011.
It is understandable for those who feel he didn’t perform at a top level long enough, but he did enough to get on this ballot.
New York Mets third baseman David Wright was on a HOF trajectory before spinal stenosis ended his career. Wright’s last full-time year was his age-31 season in 2014.
His counting stats, which included 1,777 career hits and 242 home runs, will be used against him, but Wright had an impressive nine-year peak, where he earned seven All-Star berths. The seven all-star games matched last year’s HOF inductee Scott Rolen.
From 2005-2013, Wright hit .302/.384./.505 with a 138 OPS+. Wright averaged 23 home runs, 90 runs and 93 RBI. During this time, he won two Gold Gloves, two Silver Slugger awards, and finished in the Top 10 in MVP voting four times. After this period, he would play just one more full season, 2014 when the decline began.
His final career numbers were .296/376/.491 and a 133 OPS+. Only seven HOF third baseman have a higher OPS+ than Wright.
Should Wright be penalized for suffering what turned out to be a career-ending injury, that ended his full-time status after his age 31 season?
It can be argued that durability is part of being a HOF player and that is a good case, but Wright was the face of the franchise, a perennial All-Star and a strong two-way performer.
We can see both sides of this argument, just as we can for Utley and to a degree Mauer, but these players did enough to make it onto this ballot, even if their excellence was shorter than some would like.
How do you sleep at night voting for Utley, who had great offensive numbers during a period of great offensive numbers but not for Andruw Jones, who was the best defensive CF in history while being the youngest player to achieve many hitting feats? This is why the HOF specifically, and Philly beat writers in general are a joke. Guess we should be thankful you didn’t vote for Rollins? Pathetic.
Agree. Wright, Utley and Mauer all had good careers but Jones was amazing for a decade. His ballot is embarrassing
You should be disqualified as a voter for NOT having put Kenny Lofton in the Hall
And how about Jeff Kent? He has more HR than any other 2B in MLB history. Should he be penalized for not hitting all of them when he played 2B? That seems to be the knock when some look at his HR total. But helping your club win by being versatile should be a plus, not a negative.
And I believe Bobby Abreu belongs in the HOF, too.
@justice. Mauer was amazing for a decade when he was a catcher. After being moved to 1B he was just a little better than league average. Also, Jones produced more WAR so at the very least comparing the two of them is a wash.
If you want to talk WAR though, Utley’s career WAR is higher than Andruw Jones (64.5 – 62.7). Using WAR for Jones over Mauer means that you have to accept that Utley should be in above Jones.
WAR is stupid anyway, and neither Utley or Jones should be in.
I still don’t think Utley should get in until Whitaker, Grich and Kent get in
I have most of these in the top 10 2B ever. Which makes it strange that they’re not in.
@VonPurpleHayes 2B has historically been underrepresented in the HoF but those three I said (and Utley for that matter) are all probably top 20 2B all time and they aren’t in which seems crazy to me
Well, of course you do with Utley. A little homerism perhaps? Don’t get me wrong, he was very good but not top 10 all-time at his position imo. I personally am a small hall fan, so my requirements are harder than some.
I have most of these in the top 10 2B ever.
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Whitaker should make it on longevity + talent, but Grich was substantially better overall than almost any of these guys.
Grich’s bWAR/650 was 5.6 while even Carew only has a 5.0 , and was technically a 1B, not a 2B.
I wasn’t talking about Utley. I was talking about Whitaker, Grich and Kent. But I do have a hard time coming up with 20 2b better than Utley.
The fact Lou Whitaker is not in is enough to question the sanity of these clowns who write baseball for a living…
The fact that he didn’t even get 5% to stay on ballot is even worse. Put in baines and Morris but an elite 2b can’t even stay on ballot is shameful.
I have to agree with you, how Whitaker isn’t in, much less not even on the ballot is beyond me.
His double play partner is in, and while he definitely deserves to be and played the more difficult position, there are a lot of similarities between Trammell and Lou’s careers should suggest that Lou should be in.
Both made five All-Star teams, and both won four Gold Gloves. Both had higher than average batting averages and OBP’s than most middle infielders had at the time. Trammell hit for a little more average (.285 – .276), Lou had more HR’s (244 – 185). Lou has the higher career WAR (75.1 – 70.6) and both played approximately 2,300 games.
Trammell still gets the nod of the two for playing SS instead of 2nd, but Lou deserves to be in as well.
My issue with Whitaker’s candidacy isn’t that he was dropped too early from the initial writer’s ballot. I think the 5% rule is foolish, and I think it’s odd that it takes the writers so long to evaluate and reevaluate the case of some players.
My issue is that Whitaker was actually dropped from the veterans committee ballot! There are so many of the PED guys clogging up the works that Whitaker was not included on the last Contemporary Era 8-man ballot. McGriff got in, but Whitaker was bounced in favor of Belle, Bonds, Clemens, Mattingly, Murphy, Palmeiro, and Schilling. Lou’s next opportunity is now Dec. 2025 for the 2026 Inductions. Grich was also not on the ballot. Plus, the 2025 ballot will be clogged with more players.
Oh, and one of the candidates that might bump Whitaker off the Contemporary Era ballot in 2025 – Jeff Kent.
Kent not being in is plain silly
As far as I know those three are not on this ballet
why do you need to virulently disparage narducci and use him as a proxy to disparage philly sports writers? what does that accomplish, except maybe that you must love to hate.
I agree. There’s no need to be unpleasant to the man. He’s volunteering to share his ballot. Good-natured disagreement is part of the fun.
That said: There are a number of quality second basemen on the cusp. Lou Whitaker with his 75 BWAR should be an easy call when his era comes up again.
I was surprised to see that Willie Randolph’s career BWAR is 65.9. The Veterans Committees will be considering quality 2bs for years.
Pedroia is the best of them all.
But to play devil’s advocate, if I’m a voter and I feel like those “on the cusp” players should be in, I’m not going to wrongly not vote a current candidate in because other voters erred with other players in the past.
The only person i mentioned was kent you weirdo lol
Not voting for Beltran over the cheating scandal while he was manager is one thing, as a player he deserves the nod.
Much like Pete Rose. As the all time career hits leader and a phenomenal playing career he deserves to be inducted into the HOF
Chase Utley? Plueeze!
Beltran was not manager of the Astros at that time, he was an active player. The manager role he lost was the Mets’ job after his role in the cheating scandal was revealed.
@TheMan 3 Beltran was a player in his last season and the mastermind of that cheating scandal. I think he’ll still get in but I genuinely hope that scandal costs him first ballot status
Already did. This is year 2
I completely forgot he was on the ballot last year
did you just start watching baseball this offseason, “the man?”
did you graduate 6th grade with your brother Jethro , Cooch?
Let’s not mention that Mr. Bud Selig, the man who oversaw the biggest cheating scandal in modern history, is glowingly in the HOF ….
Bud Selig is a cockroach. Shows you that character is meaningless in getting voted into the HOF.
Beltran wasn’t a manager he was a player then. While named Mets manager he was let go before first game.
The issue I have is that he is hardly the first same with Astros being first or only team.
Plenty of players that did similar in hall plenty of ped guys as well.
This guy is being gracious to show is his ballot. I think we owe it to him to keep our disagreements respectful.
I disagree. Silliness should be met with honesty.
Andruw Jones doesn’t deserve to be in. His defense was extraordinary, but his 111 career OPS+ wasn’t. Can’t get in on defense alone. Black ink and gray ink both have him well short and HOF Standards has him a few good seasons off. He’s also short on career WAR by CF for the average HOF, JAWS, and WAR/162.
You really ripped this man apart for daring to have a different opinion over… a child’s game? Really?
The thing about Andruw is he is also hurt by league adjusted stats like so many in that era who clearly were not on steroids for any obvious length of time (likely not at all). His offensive value was more significant than it appears imo. If he had 3 more of those Braves offensive years he’d probably be in even if he was a bad fielder, let alone the best at his position ever. He’d have 500 homers and they’d let him in. You telling me he didn’t put up enough glove to make up for that discrepancy?
Speaking specifically to the evaluation of HOF credentials, I believe if any “short-term” player should be in, that person is Don Mattingly. He was the best player in baseball for a five year span.
I am obviously partial as a diehard Yankees fan, but I assume many would agree with the assessment of his performance.
I feel that way about Johan Santana.
The Mets had two of those coulda woulda shoulda guys in the same era in Santana and David Wright. Both of them were so good, right up until their bodies couldn’t take it anymore. Such a shame – it would have been interesting to see where their careers would have gone if they could have stayed on the field.
So steroid users is a no go but dirty players like Utley still get the green light.
Add in the blatant bias against Andruw Jones and this is exactly the logic I’d expect from a Phillies writer. This is the type of voting that has 100% ruined the HOF.
There needs to be a process to assess the quality of the votes someone is making to decide whether their ballots and voting privileges should be revoked. Yours absolutely should be
Everybody can let their emotions and desire to win get the best of them (at least to some extent) for a moment. When you were taught to play a certain way and the heat is on I think we should try to be understanding, since it was an isolated incident seemingly and many others did similar things that we don’t remember because nobody got hurt badly. I would vote for steroid users (not all maybe) but there is a difference between doing something in the heat of the moment and doing it for years. Are we to take Ty Cobb out of the HOF?
Utley was not an isolated incident. He was consistently a dirty player. The slide on Tejada was just the icing on the cake that got all of the attention. He was known as dirty long before that slide for anyone paying attention though.
Also I’m not suggesting we take dirty players out. I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of judging the steroid users but being ok with the guys who had no problem hurting their competition when able. Which of those is objectively worse? “Cheating” the game or actively trying to hurt your opponents when you have a chance to do so while you disguise it as playing tough.
Face it, sports is not clean cut no matter how you look at it. Let’s stop vilifying the steroid users. If anything these guys did a lot more for the game than they did against it. They got people watching because they were entertaining. No one had a problem soaking up the entertainment they provided. Now we want to cast stones at them after the fact.
Sorry to tell you all but guys like Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire were all good for the game at the end of the day.
P.S. Utley shouldn’t be in because he doesn’t deserve it, not because he’s dirty. I just can’t help but point out the irony of someone standing on some moral high ground that they won’t vote for steroid users but then has a guy like Utley penciled in.
I know your not suggesting to take them out. A dumb point on my part. In the game at that time there was a very thin line between dirty and gritty. I watched Utley for years be routinely commended for his style of baserunning. To some people baseball has a little football in it. I don’t agree personally but growing up playing hard was what is nowadays considered playing dirty, to an extent. I watched so many 100s of NL East games back then and most of the broadcasters and many of the elite players seemed to commend those type of things. Sometimes it just looks worse than others but it’s really not so different.
Exactly came here to say same thing why leave andruw out but vote for utley and wright…
Philly writers like Jayson Stark and this guy are the biggest homers and they are making a mockery of the hall of fame. They all vote for Rolen and Utley and none of them vote for Andruw Jones. It’s pure unadulterated favoritism.
because he’s a shill and a chump
I strongly suspect the main issue isn’t that Jones had a short peak, but the fact that after his career went south he plead guilty to domestic abuse charges. On the merits of his career itself, I would agree that he was HoF caliber.
How could you talk about Utley and David Wright without voting for Andruw Jones? Yes he fell off big time but for a decade he was amazing. Longer than Utley and Wright. What a joke.
Utley and wright are a joke. At least jones one can make a decent argument even though he falls short in my eyes.
Both Utley and Wright had higher career WAR’s than Jones.
Let’s see jones 62.7 career war…wright 49.2 and utley 64.5. Wright isn’t even in the same area code. Utley is but that’s why none of the above are hall of famers to me.
If we’re letting in guys like Andre Dawson and Roy Halladay, than A.Jones better be in.
Over Doc Halladay, really?! Two time Cy Young award winner, his 65.9% winning percentage is top 20 of all time for pitchers that threw a minimum of 1,000 innings. Eight time All-Star, in the top five of Cy Young voting 7 times.
Andre Dawson, Rokkie of the year, 8 time All-Star, and an MVP. His 8 All-Star appearances came within 11 years in the middle of his career. Jones only had five total in 17 years. Hawk h won 8 Gold Gloves, which only two short of Jones.
Point is, you don’t need to poop on players in the Hall to make a case for Jones. Both Doc and Hawk accomplished more than Jones did in their careers, but that doesn’t mean that all three couldn’t/shouldn’t be in.
One of the great HoF debates is longevity over stretches of dominance. Someone like Utley had one of the best stretches for a 2B ever for a 2-3 year stretch. Is that more valuable than 9 solid seasons? I don’t have the answer. But I do think anyone who was the best at something for multiple years should at least be considered for the Hall. Utley, deGrom, Sandy Koufax…etc. They didn’t have the longevity, but those peak years were special.
I’ll never forgive Utley for that “slide” that broke Ruben Tejada’s leg. Dirty, dirty play that should have been punished but never was.
I do find it interesting that the catcher protection rule was the “Buster Posey rule” while the infield protection was the “Chase Utley rule”, which is inconsistent because Posey got hurt while Utley did the hurting.
I agree Utley was a great player but he was also a dirty player.
Baseball was such a different game in the early 2000’s. Anyone else remember Orlando Cabrera’s pop up slides + shoulder checks sliding into second base?
Bill James wrote in the first version of his Historical Baseball Abstract that in thinking about the Hall of Fame you first need to decide whether you’re talking about peak value or career value.
Aside from Koufax’s extraordinary five-year run some of the hardest calls for the Hall of Fame involve guys who had an excellent peak but – for various reasons – lacked sustained longevity: guys like Santana, Andruw Jones, Mattingly, Munson, Oliva, even Hal Trosky, a brilliant hitter who retired because of debilitating migraines.
Here’s a thought: abolish the Hall of Fame.
Lol.
10 gold gloves in a row doesn’t speak to longevity? How many does it take ? 20?
With that logic, Jake Arietta should be in the HOF
Arrietta had a 2 year “peak” That’s a bit on the short side….
Look at his stats on BR, 2014, 15, 16, 17, and 18 were all great seasons. That’s 5
@Yanks2 Great example. Arrieta is not a HoFer in my eyes, but his peak years were great. So yeah. It’s not easy.
What about Tim Lincecum?
@Yanks2
2016 = 3.8 bWAR, 3.5 fWAR
2017 = 1.9 bWAR, 2.5 fWAR
2018 = 2.4 bWAR, 2.0 fWAR
You seem to have a loose definition of greatness. 2016 Arrieta was still good (I wouldn’t call it great), but by 2017-2018, he was nothing more than a mid/back end rotation arm.
Agreed, and to add to that:
Dizzy Dean
Joe Jackson
Thurman Munson
A lot of guys who lost time while fighting in WW2
Etc.
Dizzy Dean is (unfortunately) in the HOF. Joe Jackson won’t ever go in, he took money to throw the World Series. Thurman Munson’s career was winding down when he died, he doesn’t deserve to be in the HOF, either. Several guys who lost playing time due to WWII went into the HOF despite weak career numbers (Hank Greenberg is a good example). All of the deserving guys from this category are already in.
Why is Dizzy Dean “Unfortunately” in the HOF? Guy was dominant, one of the very few ball players at the time that was not racist, and one toe injury away from being a top 10 all-timer.
As for Munson, he won an MVP, was in the MVP discussion, and an all-star in his last three full seasons not sure he was slowing down.
Ain’t no way in hell DeGrom will go into the HOF, nor should he.
I have always found the phrase “player’s associated with steroids” to be very interesting. What does that mean and who decides that association? Once they became illegal in baseball, you know who failed a drug test so that’s fairly simple. But before that, how do you know who was associated and who wasn’t? How do you know none of the players you have and will vote for did not take steroids? You don’t. Which means you are creating an association for some and ignoring any possible association for others.
And since amphetamines had a far greater impact on player ability and were far more widely used for longer, you might want to expand your artificial “associations”.
Funny how the beat writers and media didn’t mind getting the extra views or press during the steroid period in general. They loved selling their papers or whatever when people wanted to hear about the homerun races and drama. Yet, once it was shown that these players cheated, the media which once supported them for their own means, suddenly vilified everyone they once praised.
I am starting to think that any beatwriter who knowingly kept supporting and writing about these players during the steroid period should also be kept out of the Hall of Fame. They knew that something drug-related was going on before it was exposed. These are intelligent people who had to of caught a whiff of something afoul.
Kept out of voting for the hall of fame as well.
Yeah, it’s amazing how you love your wife until you find out she is cheating on you.
Just like that, when you find players are cheating, you quit supporting them. Duh!
@running I agree 100%. A lot of these writers rode the steroid train that brought baseball back after the self-inflected disaster of 94. Now they want to pretend that they didn’t. Plus up until the late 90s things like Andro were not illegals in baseball. It wasn’t illegal until someone saw it in McGuire’s locker and wanted to make a stink.
Here is truly why the Steroid Era players won’t get in…Pete Rose is not in the HOF. The All-Time hits leader is not in for gambling on the game AFTER his playing career was over. Truth is, betting on baseball doesn’t get you 4,256 hits, but Steroids make long, loud outs Home Runs. Hypocrisy would be letting in Bonds without letting in Rose as well.
Plus MLB now literally part-owns gambling sites and has gambling shows on the network.
In fairness, Rose may have been gambling after his playing career, but what brought on the ban is that he was still active as a Manager.
@Deckard I agree with everything you said except amphetamines having a far greater impact. Steroids win that particular competition hands down.
It’ll be interesting to see how this voter handles David Ortiz. Anyone who votes for him but not Clemens or Bonds should lose their HOF voting privileges.
Also, how the heck is Andruw Jones not in the hall? For nearly a decade straight he played CF better than anyone in history. And hit the lights out. And has amazing counting stats. Jeesh!
Uh, pretty sure that Willie Mays may have an argument over Jones defensively.
Tough call here. Both guys played all time great CF. My comment was a little over the top with emotion because I get very upset when HoF voters leave generationally special players off their ballot while putting on their homer favorites like Rollen and Utley. Just a little cheezed, that’s all. So, yes, Willie Mays was 1A, but Andruw Jones might be 1B, or at the very least, the bronze standard for CF.
Willie mays said andruw jones was the greatest center fielder he ever saw..quoted by Terry Pendleton so apparently he didn’t have an argument
It’ll be really interesting to drudge up this post if you don’t vote for Buster Posey to be in the HoF
I think Posey will get in but he has a much weaker case than Mauer, who many consider borderline. Mauers had a career rWAR of 55 compared to Poseys 44.
He’s literally the only thing worth voting for on a team that won three championships. I agree he should not get in but the sentimentality there is strong.
Posey should absolutely not be in the HOF. People will be heavily influenced to vote him in because he was a catcher
Considering Mauer is around 75% on the disclosed ballots, ‘many consider borderline’ is a stretch. Only catcher with 3 batting titles, an MVP and 4 times in the top 10, 6-time All-Star, 3 gold gloves and 5 silver slugger awards – all as a catcher. That’s not borderline.
Posey is comparable to Mauer in a lot of ways, but Posey’s career was very short. Baseball Reference has a chasm between the two with Mauer at 55 WAR to Posey’s 44. Fangraphs has Posey at 57 to Mauer’s 53.
The big difference is Posey gets credited for impossibly great catcher framing 2012-2016. While catcher framing has become a darling of defensive metrics, it doesn’t seem to be repeatable as catchers can rarely demonstrate consistent values.
Catchers are under-represented. They have a hard time accumulating the numbers but they play a premium position. The hardest one to value and the one we need to be most forgiving of statistically. Posey is a HOFer to me easily. Pitch framing is huge but it’s misleading value-wise because it’s one of the only things a catcher does we can measure. I think we’d be better off valuing catchers without even looking at it (for the HOF) because the very fact that they were a major league catcher for so long means they are likely good at the stuff we don’t measure. The reputation of a catcher is likely more accurate than our defensive stats at approximating value. It’s imperfect but so are the numbers. They are basically a coach if they are good.
I don’t think Posey belongs in the Hall, but who knows?
It’s not explicitly stated in the article, but the reason that the writer didn’t vote for Andruw Jones is likely because of the DV charges placed against him. If we are to assumed that this ballot uses the character clause as a requirement and not a guideline, it makes sense to exclude Jones.
Holy cow man. Probably half of the old timers wouldn’t be in the Hall for the crap they did.
I’m not saying I agree with the voter, I’m just trying to propose judgement that would make his voting consistent. The inclusion of Wright is a bit strange, but otherwise the ballot is justified under that reasoning.
I agree on Wright. My issue is that he, Wright, wasn’t that far ahead of anyone other stars of the time to justify election based on a career cut short due to injury. I like your comment.
The difference here is that Jones plead guilty to actual charges.
If we used character 2/3 of the Hall would be voted in by a legends committee. Not some of the greatest humans playing ball.
I’ll reaffirm that I don’t categorically agree with the ballot, I’m simply giving an explanation for its inclusions and exclusions.
Then Utley should be excluded for maliciously sliding into Tejada and breaking his leg. Leading to the creation of the Chase Utley Rule. Thats some bottom basement character stuff as well
Once again, I think it’s understandable that the writer wouldn’t view a takeout slide on the same level as criminal charges. Obviously this is only speculation, though.
Or the writer is a hack philly writer with a raging hard on to hate the Braves
This dude voted for Curt Schilling in 2021. Where was that character stuff back then??
Fartgod rolmao congrats for having funniest screen name of the day …. Reading your name made me laugh something fierce…. Fartgod love it
That wasn’t the only dirty slide. There were two dirty slides just on Tejada. One on Ryan Theriot and another one that I think was Pittsburgh or SD. Utley was a good player, but there’s a history of dirty slides.
There’s nothing explicit or implicit about the DV charges. That’s just speculation on your part.
Or it could be that he’s short by pretty much every HOF metric.
But he’s not. Best defensive center fielder of all time and 400+ home runs. He should be an automatic vote.
Ty Cobb would like a word.
You might be right. Because if it’s only about baseball Andruw Jones should be a shoe in. I don’t know the particulars of the DV thing, if it’s credible or not.
I love Wright, but he just didn’t do it for long enough, which is a part of being a Hall of Famer. Utley is the same logic. He had 5 good years, doesn’t make him a Hall of Famer.
There are players who had short careers due to either injuries or death, but most of these guys were a step above any of the other stars of their time. But I agree, Wright wasn’t that great of a player to get this consideration. Yet, because he was a New York player, he gets media bias.
I think Utley is a true fringe candidate. Yes, it would be an injustice if he gets elected before a Committee puts in Grich and Whitaker. But some have to vote for him to keep him on ballot. He by all means should not be a one and done candidate as far as being on the ballot.
I don’t understand how more than 1 out of every 4 voters excludes Jones.
As for Wright, I definitely don’t see him as a HOFer. But I don’t see him as a one and done talent either. So somewhere he needs to generate 5%.
My only real issue is the “what if” factor. What if every voter decided to be one of the few to stop so many no doubt first ballot guys from being unanimous and they were suddenly off ballot. We re talking every guy except Mo, someone(s) decided to exclude from ballot.
Another “what if” would be if everyone decided that Wright needs a few votes to stay on and suddenly we have a freak 2nd unanimously elected player inadvertently. Unlikely but possible.
Peak sample size guy. I personally believe you have to not only have a great peak but have longevity. What happens with longevity is those career stats can start to diminish. Being great and great for a long time makes you a hall of famer. A 5 year peak like Utley and being a hall of famer is a joke in my eyes.
Also bit of a double standard as Andrew Jones is the poster child for peak performance and you don’t have him listed. At least be consistently bad.
Good ballot Mark.
*Marc
Career fWAR
Beltran 68
A Jones 67
Edmonds 65
Lofton 62
Helton 55
Brian Giles has more WAR than this guy. So do Luis Gonzalez, Jeff Kent and Robin Ventura lmao.
Get this altitude merchant ouchea bruh
WAR isn’t the be all end all. Calling Helton an altitude merchant isn’t accurate. He has the same or better park/league adjusted wRC+ as the first four players you mentioned first.
And played 1B. All of them were elite defenders in center
First off, Giles had a great career. But second, by bWAR, Giles had 51 WAR (a surprisingly high amount, dude was very underrated) while Helton had 61.
But further, Beltran, Jones, Edmonds, and Lofton are all Hall of Famers in my book, so including Helton with them is a compliment.
My Hall of Fame Ballot:
Ramirez
Helton
Beltre
Wagner
Pettiitte
F. Rodriguez
Beltran
A. Rodriguez
Good choices. I would also add Sheffield and Mauer.
Still no Andruw Jones? I mean F. Rodriguez over Andruw Jones is beyond laughable.
Good point. I thought Jones was on the list…he definitely should be on the list. One hell of a CF defender.
Hall of Fame needs a reset. And should not include Chase Utley or David Wright! Or Harold Baines. Or many other individuals.
However, Buster Posey should be enshrined early.
Buster posey should not be in because his rule sucks. Not being able to hit the catcher has made MLB that much boring. It reminds me when Jordan couldn’t hang with the bad boy Pistons so the NBA changed the rules so their pretty poster boy Jordan could actually be good
I agree by all means with Wright. Most everyone is in agreement on Baines. The HOF voters themselves barely kept him on 6 ballots. It is known their was some biased on the Committee that selected Baines. The saddest part os he has become the poster boy for trying to justify every players case.
Posey should likely one day get in, I don’t see him as a first ballot guy. There is absolutely ZERO justification for him getting in early. That is for ultimate extreme circumstances, which Clemente by all means called for.
When you say Posey should get in early, do you mean early in his eligibility or being granted an exemption to rules and be eligible and enshrined early??
If eligible and enshrined early I’d love to hear how anyone could try and justify such a thing for a guy who possibly could linger on ballot for years.
Giants are the closest thing to a dynasty this century(3 championships in 5 seasons), and Posey was the main character. I think he was the best in the game in his career. And I’m not even a Giants fan, although I’ll admit I’m partial to great catchers over pitchers or other position players.
Yes, I’m of the opinion he should be enshrined early- better than first-ballot. Not that he WILL be, but I think he’s maybe one of the ten or twenty greatest players of all-time.
It’d debatable if he even barely cracks top 10 of greatest catchers. In no reality is he a top 10 or 20 greatest player of All Time.
As far as him getting in before first ballot, sorry but that is utterly ridiculous. Even the no doubt first ballot players have to wait to they are eligible. The exception was Clemente and that was due to a tragic death while traveling on a humanitarian mission. Posey in no way fits any criteria to have the rules broken for him.
Like I said, I’m partial to catchers and think he was the best player in baseball during most of his career. In my view it’s fine that his career was relatively short considering catchers don’t last long, or whatever issue writers may have about him being a first-balloter. And expecting the same statistics of a catcher as that of a Clemente-like player is ridiculous. I do not reserve first ballot hall of fame spots to stat-heavy outfielders only.
You can have your opinion, that is fine. I don’t subscribe to the scriptures of baseball history which dictate how every player should be ranked. Baseball today is played among men coming from a global talent pool, and competition this century is more robust than ever before. Posey leading a team to 3 championships in 5 seasons is ridiculous. It is hard enough to win multiple pennants within a few years, and extremely difficult to be able to win more than one championship (look at the Astros: 7 LCS appearances and only 2 WS wins: and one of those wins is disputed among baseball writers like Narducci as he stated above regarding Beltran).
The committee’s opinions today seem to be mostly about the morality of the people who played the game. Judging from the content of the above article, a player’s achievements on the field appear to make up a very small portion of HoF-worthiness these days. Who knows what the future will bring regarding the definition of “first-ballot”? I certainly don’t. I’m just here to give my opinion.
How did Posey lead them to even 1 Championship? He had 4 total HRs and hit .250 across the 3 Post Seasons they won Championships.
Where did I say he should have stats of an OF??? Clemente only mentioned due to you saying he deserves to be an exception to eligibility. Which in Clemente’s case was not just that he was an obvious first ballot HOF. But the circumstances in which he tragically died.
Posey played 11 seasons and 2 full seasons of that time were spent at DH/1B. He won 1 MVP and 2 other times cracked top 10 in voting(6&9). There are multiple players with 2 MVPs who did not make HOF. Yes being a MVP at C is a bit more significant. But he again only has 1 MVP.
The notion that he was best player in baseball while he played is just ridiculous. Maybe 2 or 3 years he was the best C let alone player. His career overlapped with peak Kershaw, Trout, Verlander, Harper, etc.
His career wasn’t just short, considering of the 11 seasons played he missed over half of 2 he barely even meets HOF eligibility requirements. So to write it off as him simply having a short career due to being a C is a vast understatement.
In 2012 when he was NL MVP he was not the best player in the game either. Cabrera won a Triple Crown and clearly had a better season. Trout had an amazing season as well and had Cabrera not won Triple Crown would ve been the MVP.
Great. I already said I don’t care about stat-heavy sluggers like outfielders being measured up to great catchers to justify their individual greatness. And everything I brought up in my replies is relevant- I’m not going to walk you through it.
Bottom line is this:
Giants won 3 championships in 5 years: 2010, 2012, 2014. No other team has accomplished that in this century, and it’s getting harder and harder to match that feat year after year because of the structure of the playoffs, the complex formula one needs to reliably win championships due to this structure, and a deeper talent pool than ever before. We saw the Giants without Posey in 2011 and they crashed and burned- he was the primary key to their success during 3 different championships. And by the way in the 2012 World Series the Giants demolished Verlander and Cabrera: better season for Miguel Cabrera my ass! Miguel Cabrera is not a team leader, he’s not working with the pitchers and running the infield defense. He was barely competent in the field. He had very good hitting stats in the regular season, partially because his division was so horrible at the time. I’m not saying Verlander and Cabrera aren’t worthy of greatness in their own domains over the span of their careers, but when it came to baseball’s biggest stage the Giants wrecked them both and the rest of their pathetic team at that time. Posey was the nexus of the Giants’ successful campaign in 3 different seasons and 2012 was no exception. And I’m not going to look at Posey and say he wasn’t as good as Cabrera Trout or Harper because they have more mvp awards or home runs- those guys have totally different jobs than Posey!
You can measure greatness however you please. I read everything you wrote and none of it makes me change my mind. Offensive stats for a catcher are a small part of their job- and by the way Posey was by far the best hitting catcher of the 2010s: look it up.
Feel free to respond but don’t expect a reply because it’s useless to argue any further. Buster Posey is one of the greatest players of all-time. And this isn’t even coming from a Giants fan.
SS runs the teams defense bot the catcher. And AGAIN I did not compare Posey’s stats to OFs. Clemente only mentioned due to unique circumstances that made him exempt from eligibility rules. As for the Championships, those are a team accomplishment, not an individual accomplishment.
The notion that Posey was better than Trout in 2024 is absolutely laughable. Cabrera won the Triple Crown.
They have stats and metrics now weighted by position and the value derived from said position. Those stats show Trout and Harper were far none valuable than Posey. That’s not something of debate that is reality.
Yes Posey had a great career. One of greatest careers of All Time, that’s very debatable. Yes his career was cur short, bur the game has a lengthy history of players who injuries got in the way of what could have been. In the end players are judged by what was not what could have been.
As for him being a “nexus” for greatness, under that premise you have to include Sandoval as well. He even won a World Seriez MVP and did more than provide barely average postseason production. But that’s not the narrative you are trying to spin.
You don’t need to run me through anything. I explained how and why everything you have claimed is simply untrue. You can keep regurgitating the Giants team accomplishments and try to give all the credit to Posey, but AGAIN simply not true. He won 0 World Series MVPs and really did nothing truly noteworthy in any of those postseasons. As for the regular seasons, you are speaking of a team that won while being a Wild Card, and the 2 years they won their Division they did so with 92 & 94 wins. They were never an utterly dominate team in any of those seasons. They were teams that won with a sum of all parts come the postseason. And Posey’s contribution to those sums was average at best.
So, did this man vote for PED user David Ortiz?
Probably because in most steroid cases it’s subject to opinion.
Another horrible ballot. Some of these people shouldn’t be allowed to vote.
Hall of Morality?
@marc narducci
Thank you for forwarding you votes and opinions on your choices. Always intriguing…
Beltre and mauer only
Buehrle belongs in the hall, you have to overlook his time at Toronto when shotty management did in his stats
There is no reality, alternate or otherwise, where Buehrle is a HOFer
What! Buehrle’s stats with the Jays are actually better than his career marks.
His winning percentage with the Jays was 58.8%, his overall career was 57.2%. His ERA with the Jays was 3.78, his overall career was 3.81. He had a higher strikeout % with the Jays, and a lower walk %.
Every one of his counting stats were better than his overall career stats. His Jays years were actually his best with any one team.
Not a serious ballot.
David Wright? Should I get my bachelors degree because I had a great freshman year and dropped out?
With all due respect and I do mean with all due respect. This is the worse voting card I have ever seen.
Helton and Beltre should get in. Mauer will probably be close. Wagner feels like a guy that will squeak in on the final ballot, but not on mine. Utley seems like a Rolen that you might end up voting for later on, but not now. I think Jimmy Rollins was superior, but I wouldn’t vote for him right now either. David Wright probably deserves a token vote or two, but the only reason he will get even 5% is because of the New York spotlight.
Now, for those left off this ballot. Like him or not, and I don’t, A-Rod deserves to be in. Same with Manny Ramirez. You cannot fully tell the story of 90s and 2000s baseball without those two. Carlos Beltran missing out on the first ballot feels like enough of a punishment to me. He should be in also. Another guy who should have already been in long ago is Gary Sheffield. It is his final ballot and he should coast in, but he will likely fall short for stupid reasons. Another holdover I feel doesn’t get enough credit is Mark Buehrle. Starting pitchers are tough to judge, especially in this era where wins are less important, but I feel Buehrle was one of the better pitchers of his generation. Probably will never get in, but I still support him.
I would NOT vote for Andruw Jones. The guy was a great piece of the Braves teams while in his 20s, but he fell off so early and so hard that I do not see him as a HOFer. If he would have only declined on a lesser scale in his 30s, he would have been first ballot. But he didn’t. And not even getting to 2000 hits just doesn’t do it for me. The final guy I would vote for would be Matt Holliday and that is more of a token vote of a Rockies fan. I don’t expect him to be a HOFer, nor should he be. But there is nothing wrong with adding a fan fave name to a ballot that has less than 10 names on it.
My ballot would be
Todd Helton, Adrian Beltre, Joe Mauer, Alex Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez, Carlos Beltran. Gary Sheffield, Mark Buehrle, Matt Holliday
That being said, I don’t have a vote, so my opinion is virtually meaningless. But I felt like sharing this morning.
Joe Mauer was done as an above-average hitter and done as a C by age 30 too. Why is he not disqualified like Andruw, the greatest defensive OF of all time?
Because Mauer won 3 batting titles and an MVP as a catcher and did not drop off nearly as much as Jones after age 30. Jones was basically Jim Edmonds on a good team.
Mayer didn’t drop off? He had to move to 1B where he provided league average offense.
Not what I wrote. I wrote that he didn’t drop off as much as Jones. Mauer still provided league average offense. Jones’s OPS+ at age 31 was 65% worse than league average. Or around the worst player in the league that year.
Mauer was also a good defensive catcher, with three Gold Gloves. He also won 5 Silver Slugger awards to Jones’ 1, 4 times top 10 MVP voting to Jones’ 2.
Chill there buddy, there’s a guy named Willie Mays who was a pretty good outfielder himself. Jones put up 10 in a row, Mays put up 12 in a row.
Not taking a shot at Jones, he was a great CF. That said, this whole string of comments makes him sound like he is the second coming. Just relax a bit folks.
Buehrle?? Aren’t there enough mediocre players that are in the hof already? Hall of fame should be the best of the best only then you let your Harold Baines in and it’s complete joke. The hall of fame is just that.. a complete joke
My Harold Baines? I am not a White Sox fan. I just think Buehrle is HOF-worthy, but I have no real belief he will ever get in. You have the right to disagree, but that doesn’t make you right and me wrong.
I do have to ask, if you think the HOF is a complete joke, then why do you care who they put in? There are other things in life for you to do.
Yes! “You can’t tell the story without” is what drives me nuts about ballots like these.
I don’t want to visit the Hall of Fame and see a partial history. I don’t want to wander around seeing the stories of guys who did greenies being upheld as some mystical past when baseball was “pure,” while constantly mentally filling in the absences of guys who I watched play ball. If you look to the Hall of Fame for moral authority you’re already lost.
Also now trying to imagine other Hall of Fames without their members that were drug users, cheaters, abusers, etc. Ah yes, the story of Rock and Roll with 5 people.
The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame does not have a Character Clause. The Baseball Hall of Fame does.
But should it? The character clause is so ambiguous that it is left up to the individual voter to interpret it. These are sportswriters, not legal scholars. Something like that should not be left in their hands. They should vote on the field accomplishments ONLY. The only way a player should be eliminated for character concerns is if the HOF decides to not put their name on the ballot at all. If the HOF decides that Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez and Barry Bonds and others are worthy of being on the ballot, then no one else should have anything to say about their character.
You should feel embarrassed not proud about helping keep the best player and pitcher out of the hall. It takes a weak minded person to come to the conclusion that Bonds and Clemens deserve to pay for what everyone else in the league was participating in and profiting from. Most writers are spiteful by nature but you all crossed the line and should lose your votes.
Listen, those of you with the harsh comments, remember that Tim invited him to share his ballot. You can certainly disagree – as I do too – but calling him a joke after writing for 38 years is unnecessary and makes mlbtr readers look bad ino.
@thecoop
Exactly what I felt but failed to find the phrasing. Nicely put Coop…
It’s actually says the writer reached out and asked for this. At least get that correct before going all sainthood.
If you’re going to actually write and show what you write then you need to be open to criticism. While he did share his opinions a lot of them don’t make sense so why shouldn’t we be able to call him out on it?
Go virtue signal and be incorrect somewhere else. It’s an awful ballot that he likely, sanctimoniously thinks is great.
Virtue signaling is an accusation made by people who haven’t got any.
would love to see adrian beltre get in to the hall on his first appearance on the ballot.
He will.
My argument for voting for HOF is first look at career totals, second is look at their era – were they the best at their position during their playing time. Beltre great career stats = HOF. Mauer was definitely the best catcher during his time = HOF. Wagner second best reliever behind Rivera = HOF. Helton was top 5 for most of his career = HOF. Yes he played at Coors but do you penalize players for hitting home runs at Yankee Stadium with its short porch. Utley and Wright were definitely near the top during a 5 year period. However i dont think thats enough for HOF.
Tdat you’re right on. Good way to look at this .
I’ve been watching baseball for 57 years. This is one of the most ignorant ballots I’ve ever seen. Mayer, Utley, Wright!!! No Andrew Jones or Gary Sheffield. Your voting credentials should be revoked.
The Hall is a total disaster now. As a kid, I always really wanted to take a trip there. Now, I have zero desire to ever visit. So many steroid users already in, but others being punished. A Hall with no Bonds, Clemens and Rose but with Baines, Rolen and Jack Morris is a joke.
Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGuire, Ramirez, ARod, Palmeiro and the other steroid greats broke the rules to gain. That’s why they are not in.
Does anyone believe Pete Rose tanked a game as a player due to gambling? He was one of the greatest ever to play the game if everything he did is considered. He belongs in the hall just as he doesn’t belong anywhere near MLB now.
This man doesn’t deserve a vote.
I don’t understand the argument against Andruw Jones. I just don’t.
Aramis Ramirez had better numbers than David Wright. Another New York thing.
Don’t forget Alexei Ramírez who had a similar WAR to Aramis.
Utley and Wright over Andruw Jones should be a disqualifying offense.
Attention-seekers are usually the ones who publish this openly and brag about it, not sane individuals.
Sportswriters are by definition attention-seekers. That’s their job.
They are supposed to seek attention for their subjects not for themselves personally. Somewhere that changed over the last few years.
As I told Von, I favor a smaller hall. That said, to leave the steroid guys out is wrong because there are already ped users in the hall; plus, nobody knows for sure who did and who did not unless they failed a test. Look, it was a period of baseball that ended up giving mlb a black eye. But don’t you try to tell me that the commissioner and many of the owners and down to even some of the managers (wake up Tony) were not complicit. And it just shouldn’t be ignored because we *think* this guy used but that guy didn’t. That’s not right in my book (which I’ll happily send to anyone who wants it. Hell, I’ll even autograph it for you!).
Thanks for letting us know you told Von now we can all feel warm inside knowing the Von has been informed. MUTE BUTTON PLEEEEEEEASSE
The voters were complicit too. It is reasonable to believe they voted in players that partook in similar “procedures” as the ones with Hall of Fame numbers used who’ve been shut out of the Hall. They’re making it worse.
LaRussa was complicit in the induction of Harold Baines.
I loved Wright and Utley but both are a stretch. Especially the former. If players of this caliber keep making it, when is it Will Clark’s turn? Put the Thrill in the Hall!
The Hall is meaningless without Bonds or Clemens….other alleged “users” got in. Get rid of the old fart electors
I remember when people stopped watching baseball and Bonds, Sosa, and McGuire started bringing the thrill back again. People like that saved baseball.
You could also say that people like that made big bucks and damaged other players’ careers.
Don’t really care. Did the bouncy ball from 2019 get some people paid and damage careers? Sure did. The game changes all the time, those players were just the inner circle HoF of the Steroid Era. Pretending they weren’t both whitewashes the whole period AND leaves out it’s transcendent players
Exactly
They’re only alleged users, azcrook, if you choose to play the part of a court jester: that is, a Fool!
BOND’S HAT & FOOT SIZE INCREASED as a 40-year-old, only a Moron would believe that was possible without steroids.
I was fortunate enough to workout with a former Russian Olympic team weightlifter who moved to my area (NJ).
The Russian Olympian fell in love with Baseball when he moved here, and he told me — long before it was reported anywhere else — that 3 players were “DEFINITELY USING STEROIDS.”
He then named: BONDS, McGWIRE & SOSA.
Then he told me how he knew they were steroid users. The neck has very few muscles, he said. You can only increase the muscles in your neck a minimal amount.
“The Only Way to create a ThicK Muscular Neck (like Bonds, etc.) is with Steroids.” It’s “Impossible” to do other than with steroids, he said.
So, stop calling smart people “old fart electors” who don’t vote for cheaters, and go change your diapers, sonny,
The people who didn’t know that trio was using roids without a best friend who is a Russian Olympic weightlifter also belived that Ghostbusters was a documentary.
I wonder if the actual criteria for HOF admission are provided to the voters. They aren’t seen on the ballot, and in all of his discussion, Narducci doesn’t mention them.
Any ballot including Wagner is valid in my book.
“The steroid era put such a stain on the game”
Try looking at the rating and attendance from after the strike vs McGwire and Sosa’s home run chase. Steroids didn’t stain the game, quit the opposite, it saved it.
It’s embarrassing that holier than thou writers continue to punish players for using PEDs and chastising them when MLB FULLY AND WHOLE HEARTILY embraced the steroid era or am I miss remembering the “Chicks dig the long ball” campaign and “pitchers want to be hitters”.
Meanwhile, the current MLB associating gives PEDs a wink wink nudge nudge allowing TRT and other HRTs to be allowed. Hey, you’ll get suspended for using ring worm medication but go down to your local anti-aging clinic and grab a script for test and it’s all good.
Your two-wrongs-make-a-right thinking is fatuous, drasco036.
Yea, the owners profited from an increase in attendance & TV viewers because of CHEATERS like Bonds, McGwire & Sosa, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that they did, indeed, CHEAT to achieve their lofty HR totals.
The fact is that both McGwire & Sosa would NEVER have achieved HOF HR totals if it weren’t for steroids. And Bonds was on a pace for the low-to-mid 500s in HRs before he turned himself into the Hulk with Steroids.
It’s a shame that Bonds was so stupid because he would have been a HOFer if he had simply been satisfied to go in with an HR total of 500-540. But his EGO couldn’t handle two inferior hitters like McGwire & Sosa surpassing his HR totals, so he also cheated.
And, Yes, integrity should play a part in players being eligible for the HOF. Yes, I know that Cobb was a piece of crap as a human being, but 99% of fans had no idea that was the case back then.
But today, we do know that Bonds, McGwire & Sosa were cheaters, so no HOF for you 3!
Finally, Tim Dierkes was a fool to say that other Astros hitters shouldn’t be punished in HOF voting for their cheating, only Beltran, who masterminded the cheating incident.
How Stupid is that, Diekes? Were they grown men? Did they know they were Cheating? Were any of them mentally impaired & didn’t realize they were Cheating? Of course, NOT! so NONE of them should ever go into the HOF.
You lost me when you said Ty Cobb was a piece of crap. Shows you let media bias sway you versus actually doing a little research yourself on who a guy is.
It’s well known Stumpy lied about Cobb in his book because he had a personal vendetta against him.
Let me guess, you think Pete Rose should be in the Hall but Bonds and McGwire shouldn’t right?
Sorry, drasco036, but you’re WRONG ON ALL COUNTS.
Numerous players in his time stated that Cobb was a raving racist, not just Stumpy. Cobb was easily the most despised player of his day, despite his great hitting ability.
As for Rose, NO he should never enter the HOF. He did bet on baseball games, including Reds games, and Rose LIED about doing that! And it doesn’t matter if he bet on the Reds to win. Here’s why:
If Rose as the Reds manager, had $50K on a Reds game & he knew his best reliever wanted a day off, he might use him anyway, rather than risk losing $50K.
Whether he did or didn’t do that, No Manger should even be considering anything other than the welfare of his players when he makes a managing decision that might effect his players’ wellbeing.
Putting things in all caps doesn’t make it right.
Cobb the racist? The same Ty Cobb who came from a family of abolitionist? The same Cobb that threw out first pitches in Negro league games and sat in the dugout with them? That Ty Cobb? The Ty Cob who said, in direct quotes “The Negro should be accepted wholeheartedly, and not grudgingly,” he said. “The Negro has the right to play professional baseball and whose [sic] to say he has not?” That Ty Cobb right?
If you did one second of research into Ty Cobb you would learn that it’s actually you that is wrong. The myth of Ty Cobb was wholly inaccurate and biased without a shred of truth, much like your statement.
How much different is David Wright’s “nine year peak” than, say, Robin Ventura’s? Does this guy think Ventura should be in the hall too? Just inane voting, and leaving off someone with 434 HR. Writers like this are ruining the hall.
Listen here sir, the media is your moral compass so you show some respect! – end sarcasm.
David Wright but no Andruw Jones? Really? Today is not April 1st.
Maybe the best defense ever in CF. 434 HR’s and 1200+ runs and rbi to throw in on offense and Andruw is not a HOFer? People like to just look at offensive numbers. Andruw’s defense alone is Hall worthy.
Only one center fielder of all-time has +20 defensive WAR and 400+ home runs. It’s only Andruw Jones.
You never watched Devon White play CF then.
Did you ever watch Andruw?
Yep. TBS Braves baseball, nowhere close to the defender Devon White was.
I don’t agree with all of your comments/policies, but thank you for sharing your vote. I appreciate getting to see the thinking behind part of a usually clouded/elitist process.
I appreciate Marc making his ballot public, especially on MLBTR. Commenters here are a harsh intolerant crowd.
Define intolerant. Questioning any voter’s ballot is deserved considering the mass abuse of power exhibited by the BBWAA.
“Questioning any voter’s ballot” is a highly euphemistic description of what people are saying about this particular voter. Lots of unjustified ad hominem attacks and outright insults. Why are people so angry about one voter’s ballot?
Not sure, other than the fact he might be part of the ongoing problem of voters showing blatant hypocrisy year in and year out.
Example: “they only give us 10 picks and cut eligibility by 5 years”.
Same voters take a stand and vote in nobody or pick guys they liked despite not being close to Hall of Fame caliber. All that plus more will cause some to be a bit harsh with criticism.
Attacking him personally for a system you don’t like doesn’t make much sense. He “earned” his vote in the existing system, and he respects differences of opinions. Readers should do the same. Acting like a child and throwing a tantrum doesn’t do anything constructive.
Agreed.
Looking at that list and seeing so many players not already in, or being voted for just reinforces my disdain for the Hall of Fame. Eff the hall and its voters…
Yeah as much as I like baseball I stay away from anything Hall of Fame related. I just don’t care. It’s a weird popularity contest.
If you’re voting for Wagner, vote for Francisco Rodriguez.
Utley not Wright are Hall of Famers. Gamers, yes. Hall of very good yes. Cooperstown? No.
No issue with Beltran or Jones not being on.
Scott Rolen effect has begun. We wouldn’t be talking about Wright or Utley if not for Rolen.
I have to assume K Rod is being penalized for the DV issue, otherwise voting for Wagner and not him makes zero sense
Good call. Forgot about that one.
Let me toss out 3 names of players who had shortened careers because of injury who were outstanding players and voted into the HOF::
Dizzy Dean
Ralph Kiner
Sandy Koufax
I rest my case.
Kirby Puckett is another. Puckett was an All Star 10 straight years, Gold Glove CF 6 straight years, won 6 Silver Sluggers, top 10 in MVP balloting 7 times. Legitimate first ballot HOFer.
In 1978, Addie Joss was elected to the Hall of Fame, despite not having the required 10 years minimum MLB career. The Hall gave him a waiver. He was in ST for his 10th season in 1911, but collapsed on the field during an exhibition game. Less than 2 weeks later, he died of TB. Mind you, in his 9 seasons he went 160-97 with a 1.89 ERA.
Utley is not a hall of famer. And if you think he is, how in the world is Bobby Grich not in the HOF? What a travesty.
Hopefully Grich goes in when the Veterans committee votes him in.
Voting for Utley/Wright and not Jones just makes me not think too much of you.
The only issue I have with using steroids association to keep people out is that we don’t have a comprehensive list of who used. The investigation was based on reports of some individuals who blew the whistle on certain teams. Other clubhouses weren’t scrutinized as closely.
bhambrave, here’s your awful “logic” in action:
Since all murders aren’t convicted, No murders should go to jail.
Stupid, right? But that’s your “logic” taken to its extreme.
We know that Bonds, McGwire & Sosa cheated. So don’t put them in the HOF. Is the concept of punishing Known Cheaters too complex for you?
You’ve misread my opinion. Maybe I didn’t express myself clearly. I’d like to keep all users out, but we don’t know all of them. The point I was trying to make is that not everyone is as pure as people want to believe. Of course there needs to be proof before someone is excluded, but the entire era has been tainted and no one really knows if their heroes are white knights or not.
BTW, comparing a rules violation for which there were no consequences on the field is not the same thing as someone committing murder. You did indeed take it to an extreme.
You missed my point. You CANNOT dismiss someone for ANY violation of accepted rules simply because others have not been punished for the same violation.
Here are other examples for your consideration:
Should all people who cheat on their taxes get off because other cheaters didn’t get caught?
Should all hit & run drivers get off because not all of them get punished?
Obviously the answer is NO to both of the above, as well as other examples of people who violate the accepted conduct of good people.
Bonds, McGwire & Sosa made Millions through their Cheating. Why reward them further for their Cheating?
Don’t compound their Wrong by saying, Yea, you Cheated & your stats were Artificially Inflated because of your Cheating, but let’s act like you didn’t Cheat & put you in the HOF.
You still missed my point. I’m not saying people shouldn’t be punished. Calm down.
Bhambrave, I get your point. I think there is a judgement being made but we don’t know if there’s more information than what we know. The list was 103 players or something and all anyone will say is that Ortiz was on the list. That is ridiculous. Without 103 names, there is no list. So give every name or shut up. Don’t tell me about one guy who was on the list. There does seem to be an informal list of cheaters, we know the names. But baseball really just screwed it up on this one. So we’re left with incomplete information.
Yes, that’s my point. There are players whose PED use isn’t counting against them when maybe it should. It’s an uneven playing field in HOF consideration just like it was an uneven playing field on the field itself. MLB screwed up when they promised confidentiality, just like they screwed up the Astros case.
I’d like to think that Javy Lopez was clean when he had that phenomenal year, but how can I? And we have all heard about Lenny Dykstra’s “special vitamins”, although that was much earlier.
Beltre would be it for me. Jones, Helton, Sheff were all very good and some of my favorites but not all time greats. Beltre has DOUBLE the career WAR of most of these guys listed above. I’m for a smaller hall.
I do wish the Hall would come to a public decision and discussion on the criteria for inclusion other than a bunch of personal preference and virtue signal voting from journalists. I stand on the fence with the steroid era stars or extracurricular issues like players in legal trouble. Cheating like Beltran did should absolutely cost him the hall. Some of the legends already in the hall are absolutely awful humans so why apply that criteria now?
I wouldn’t be upset to see a decision made to strictly look at the baseball performance. If so, however, the warts should go on the plaque in the museum, including commentary and education on steroid use, alcoholism, racism, and domestic issues that many of these athletes have struggled with.
Just my worthless two cents
How is Mauer, only catcher with 3 batting titles, a jaw dropping MVP year, multiple Gold Gloves and Silver Slugger awards merely very good in your world?
It took a while for HOF standards to arise.
A) Adrian Beltre is seen as a shoo-in. Eddie Mathews, one of only two 3bmen to best him in WAR, needed 5 ballots to make the HOF.
B) Many, if not most people think Carlos Beltran statistically deserves it, but might not vote for him because of cheating. Beltran’s career is incredibly similar to Andre Dawson who had a long hard struggle to make the HOF.
C) Billy Wagner has 139 fewer IP than the current HOFer with the fewest IP, Bruce Sutter. I wonder how low can the HOF go.
He states he won’t vote for players associated with steriods but probably voted Bagwell, Piazza & Frank Thomas,and probably most definately supported the enshrinement of Bud Selig, the guy singely most responsible for the “steroid era” to blow up like it did. Selig sat there and celebrated the growth in fan base and revenue while Big Mac, Bonds etc were crushing the ball, only to throw the players under the bus when Congress started to look into it to save his own hide. If the HOF let in the single most important player in the “steroid era” in, then it shouldn’t be a big deal to the writers to vote the players that belong in the hall.
Joe Maurer? lol
Once again Chico Esquela gets snubbed again. Baseball has not been bery bery good to him.
Are you voting for the Hall of Fame or the Hall of Very Good? None of the players on your ballot made the necessary impact on the game worthy of the HOF.
Beltre, Mauer and Jones are the only slam dunks
Sheffield would be, depending on how you view the steroid era, if you’re more lenient with those players he’s 100% lock, amazing career
Helton, Wagner and Adrian Gonzalez are borderline but to me put them in.
Utley and Wright no. Utley was great but too short.
The fact that Andruw Jones does not have a vote makes your baseball opinion, and ballot, worthless.
I would also put Beltran in. Those three that I mentioned as borderline, because this is the hall of fame, I would be fine with them not getting in.
Helton is a slam dunk for the 3/4/5 career line
Who’s to say that if David Wright’s career wasn’t shortened by spinal stenosis, he would have still put up the same caliber numbers for another several years?? The problem with voting in players who had a streak of greatness vs longevity, is where do you draw the line? Otani just had the best single season of any MLB player ever. If he never played baseball ever again, should he be elected into the HOF based on a single season?
David Wright and Shoehei Ohtani are not comparable at all. Ohtani is a hall of fame today right now. He has changed the game. Wright was simply a really good player.
Was Vizquel tied to steroids? Seems odd to leave him out when you make the case for “fringe” guys like Wright or Utley.
Simple google search will show you what Mr Vizquel was accused of. Sports writers are the morality police and have been for years. Baseball hall of fame voters are the absolute worst of the worst in sports media. An actual real voter left Babe Ruth off a ballot.
Beltre, Helton, and Mauer in that order.
A very Merry Christmas to all at MLBTR who I have read, enjoyed, chatted with, discussed, and/or otherwise gotten in a PBR-flavored pissing contest over the likes of Bobby Abreu’s HOF candidacy (YES he is) or any other point of contention. Baseball is a beautiful game that is as much fun to watch as it is to argue about
I agree that they need to decide if HOF is for short excellency or for long mediocrity. A lot of players in there just because long careers lead to great counting numbers even though their period of excellency may have been short or nonexistent.
Lee Smith is non deserving?
Wrong…….
The HOF voting is as watered down as weak Kool Aid. David Wright? Todd Helton? Not to mention more support for cheaters? I vote Billy Wagner. It’s a crime Wags isn’t in yet, but non-deserving closers like Lee Smith are.
If David Wright, Utley are inducted? So should be Omar Vizquel, Andrew Jones and David Concepcion IMO
Perhaps there need to be more Latino voters. A number that represents the number that actually play the game.
Affirmative Action?
Is that what I said?
Look at how many minorities play the game.
Look at who votes for the HOF
It doesn’t add up.
Voting for utley while not voting for andruw should be a war crime
This ballot paddled around in the sea of reasonableness until it hit a Wrightsburg and sank. I disagree on Beltran but reasonable minds can differ. Utley is a little more of a problem, but given peak and position ok. Wright? If we start letting in “what could have been” players the HoF is going to get meaningless real fast
How do you put Jack Morris in but not Bartolo Colon. Colon has same wins and better EPA+. Neither should be in however in my opinion.
I think if Colon had hit one more homer he’d be in.
Morris was not elected to the Hall of Fame conventionally.
You really, in your heart of hearts believe Chase Utley and David Wright had HALL of FAME baseball careers?
Thanks Tim!
This is interesting even though the HOF is so corrupted it’s irrelevant…..
Beltre only.
Yes. It’s crazy.
” I have not voted for those associated with steroids.”
Oh yes he has. It’s doubtless that he’s voted for guys that just didn’t get caught.
Knocking Wagner for a low innings total is so stupid, he had a low innings total because he was a closer.
>is against steroid users in the hall
>puts Todd Helton and Adrian Beltre on his ballot
I’m okay with writers punishing players by not voting them in the hall but we need to punish the writers who covered that era and the teams who benefited the most.
I’m pretty sure guys like Helton and Beltre were on PED’s. They certainly have suspicious career arcs. This writer probably isn’t very aware of the obvious signs of PED use outside big muscles and high HR but there’s much more to it.
We need to demand that all baseball writers who covered the steroid era and remained silent (either through ignorance or ineptitude), be fired or take pay cuts. Baseball writers should be held accountable for their role in that era too
The HoF is basically a museum, not a definitive hall of baseball greats.
I was ok with the players named until it unexpectedly ended. How can you not find more guys than this? It’s crazy. To not find 10 every year is practically impossible to me. This skimp voting is why players like Edmonds and Abreu never got consideration. I could name so many others.
Kudos for releasing your ballot and exposing yourself to criticism. Now for the criticism. It’s laughable Andruw Jones isnt on your ballot. One of the best defensive players of all time for any position. He should be in on defense alone. Add in 434 home runs and he should be a shoe in. I would have more respect for not voting for him if you didn’t previously vote for Scott Rolen or several others. Chalk it up to a small-hall guy. But the double standards are astounding.
I never liked the HOF because it’s full of decent players that shouldn’t be in it. There have been a plethora of decent and above average players but not many high end talent.
I appreciate your transparency but you have absolutely no clue on who was using steroids and who wasnt. Alot of them would surprise you. Thats not my opinion, thats a fact. You just showed Todd Heltons stats/splits in his batting title year. Looked a little different from his career splits huh? So instead of playing the morality police, vote for the best players. Or you can open yourself to fair criticism. What if there were a writers hall of fame but some writers took illegal stimulants and others didnt how would you feel about that?
Turning the Hall of Fame into the Hall of Very Good. Looks like you’re voting for the sake of voting.
Arod should be in before all of those players. And if you’re letting in David Wright & Chase Utley, Don Mattingly should be in the HOF
Isnt hard to figure out what side of the political fence this writer sits on. I grew up in a time when that would horrify a writer for someone to so obviously know.
Sorry, none of these guys could hold Bonds or Clemons jock strap. I know they cheated and were defiant about it but those to guys are darn near on the Mt Rushmore even if you take out their asterisk years. Chase Utley was a fine player but not HOF material in my mind
This ballot is a joke.
Marc & Friends should be voting on each player individually not compared to 9 others (a ballot has 10 slots). More crowded amounts of players because more teams (but not more slots) leads to wailing and gnashing of teeth…..
HOF – waste of time. Utley on the same level as Cobb, Ruth, Mantle, etc.???? Either make a special wing…or forget the whole thing.
The biggest blight on the hall of fame is that it is subject to the votes of baseball writers, what a joke. One of the most partisan groups of people, half of whom won’t vote for a player because they don’t like the way they treated them. Any other voting process would be superior.
I’m a Red Sox fan and see that you voted for Ortiz to get in, even with the report saying he juiced, which he probably did. So, how can you not put Beltran on your ballot if he was part of a TEAM who cheated. I’m sure he wasn’t the mastermind.
Baseball should have a new world wide HOF in addition to the MLB HOF.
The game has become global enough that it’s time and the lesser MLB influence will allow many if the current HOFers to simply fall away.
Put one somewhere far enough away from Cooperstown to give more Americans closer access to A HOF. California? Texas? Florida? and identical (except language) museums in Japan and other countries that want one and have legitimate case. If the U S. One was far enough away then it may be cool to have one in Cuba or Dominican.
It would he a historical museum of world wide professional baseball and HOF.
The initial class would be top 5 at each fielding position, top 5 relief pitchers, and top 30 starting pitchers.
That’s 75 players from all world wide top professional leagues.
Haven’t figured out the requirements or voting.
But it would effectively give a new level of distinction to guys like Babe Ruth over guys like Harold Baines while encouraging diversity and inclusion.
Mauer appears to be the low hanging fruit for complainers here. Catchers take beatings no other position takes. Looking at today’s active catchers, Mauer’s bWAR makes it clear why catchers should be treated a little different.
Joe Mauer = 55
Any Active Player today < 34
No active catcher today has more than 33 bWAR, and only 2 catchers who've played in the past 30 years have more bWAR than Mauer, and they both came with considerable PED taint issues. Ivan Rodriguez 68.7 and Mike Piazza 59.5.
If Mauer doesn't get in, we likely won't see another HoF catcher for the next 20 years at least.
Oh well.
Beltre juiced in 2004 and it got him his first big contract with Seattle (Gagne said 80% of Dodgers juiced in 2004. Beltre hit 23 hrs in 2003. 48 in 2004. Hit .330+ in 2004. Under .260 in 2003 and 2005). He juiced in only season for Boston and those stats got him his big contract with Texas. Look at the link. it’s pretty obvious but NOTHING has ever been said. Why? Good guy and reporters liked him.
What evidence do you have that Beltre used steroids?
Statistics. Everyone who performs better than their average obviously uses steroids. Not sure what causes them to do worse than average. Statistics are confusing.
And to not vote for Beltran when the HOF is full of cheaters, gamblers, greenie (speed) racists and other reprobate is travesty! But my Mom said “if you can’t say anything nice then say nothing at all,” so I won’t.
This secret balloting system is horrible!
Oops, said something!
Happy Holidays!
Everyone agrees Beltre is HOF.
AROD and Sheffield are HOF with the asterisk for juicing or banned if that’s how you swing.
Mauer and Helton are borderline guys, I would vote for both.
I would not vote for Wagner, his career is five seasons as a starter. He can be remembered as a great closer, but he does not get my vote. The postseason failures also factor in. I would have Andrew Jones ahead of him but still falling short.
Utley and Wright are all-stars and team HOF guys but not MLB HOF.
Everyone agrees about Beltre? Only if Bonds, Clemens, etc are put in.
Just to clarify, since the entire industry makes this mistake…David Wright’s career was NOT ended because of an injury. Spinal stenosis, (narrowing of the spinal column), is a condition that develops over time. It’s not caused by an injury or trauma. Millions of people, including myself, develop spinal stenosis. It usually shows up in older adults. Unfortunately for David, he developed the condition much earlier than the norm.
Without a doubt, barring the excruciating pain of playing with this condition, David would’ve been a no doubt, HOFer. He was on that trajectory. Should he be punished for developing a debilitating condition, he has no control over?
As for Utley…a tough, but dirty player. His unnecessarily brutal takeout of Ruben Tejada, ruined Tejada’s career. Utley should’ve been punished. It was that egregious play, that changed the takeout rule at second base, to what we have now.. No way should Utley be in the Hall.
You sound like a giant homer
Only player he voted for that is worthy of the hof is Beltre. The other guys are borderline hof types. Its not the “Hall of almost the greatest players”.
Typical self-important “writer” who desperately tries to position himself as representative while promoting the worst hypocrisy, with his contradictory purity tests and arbitrary standards. It’s embarrassing to read.
How is this guy even allowed near a baseball field with this idiocy? How do he know Helton, Wagner, and especially Beltre didn’t juice? I’ll bet you they did. I guarantee you Beltre did while he was a Dodger. And anyone who owes their success in any way to playing in Colorado should not be considered for the HOF.
There are so many holes in this dude’s rationalizations, it’s a joke. Bottom line: if someone was nice to me I will vote for them. PS. He voted for Ortiz. ORTIZ! Guess some juicers are ok.
With regards to Andruw Jones, it comes down to one simple thing for me: if we’re not gonna have Jones in the Hall, then we shouldn’t have Sandy Koufax in either. After all, the defence people give whenever Sandy’s lack of longevity or non-peak track record is always ‘But his peak!’. If we’re gonna let Koufax in solely on the basis of his still amazing peak seasons (which is pretty much the entirety of his career production), then we should give the same credit to Jones for being the near perfect combination of elite power and defense in CF during a similar period of time (as well as not being very far off Koufax’s peak numbers WAR-wise during that stretch either).
What gets me is it’s the same people who count Andruw Jones’ longevity against him and downplay his defense while at the same time ignoring short peaks and touting defense for players they like.
Exactly. At least be consistent about your criteria rather than picking and choosing based on how much you like the player.
And Dale Murphy was a back-to-back MVP, including being the youngest MVP. He fell off hard, but why isn’t his peak, along with Don Mattingly, considered?
Andruw Jones deserves to be in the HOF I don’t give a damn
Agreed, if he hadn’t fatted his way out of MLB. He was an enormous tub of goo before he was dismissed.
Wow, so much anger on Christmas Eve?
I know a ton of people either don’t celebrate the holiday OR hate the holidays in general, but man quite a few of you guys need some form of legal medication…..
Another Philly homer just like Jayson Stark. Philly is over represented in the BBWAA hall of fame voting bloc. I did some research on that last year. Votes for Rolen, then Utley without voting for Andruw Jones. Over representation of certain markets are skewing HOF voting.
Wah.
I have one name for you: Don Mattingly.
How can you put David Wright ahead of Mattingly. Mattingly had a much better career both offensively and defensively than Wright. Both were shortened by back injuries. For several years, Mattingly was considered the best player in the game for a while. Wright never was close to that.
You can also say the same thing about Chase Utley. He was not as good of a player as Mattingly was. He doesn’t belong in the HOF either.
I’m on the fence with Joe Mauer. He had a great career going that was also shortened by injury. The fact that he did, what he did as a catcher, makes me believe he should eventually get in at some point. His 3 batting titles are impressive as is his career average. His overall career numbers are a little light, but great for a catcher.
Thank you,
Arthur Gerry
Repeating myself…Wright has spinal stenosis, which is a condition that develops over time. It’s not an injury. The narrowing of the spine, is not something one can cause, or control. Unfortunately, people don’t know how to differentiate between an injury, and a condition.
Mattingly was oft injured. Trout is often injured. Wright was not.
Regardless whether it was injury or condition, David Wright’s career was cut short as was Mattingly’s. That being said, Wright was having a very good career and Mattingly was having a great career. There are very few people who would think Wright was a better baseball player. As far as Trout, he’s already a hall of farmer. He’s a generational talent and an all time great.
Trout is a generational talent, who misses a huge chunk of games each year. Compare the number of games he misses each year, to other HOF players. If you look at the number of games Trout actually plays, and total them up for his career, he comes up short.
First of all, I’m not an Angels or Mike Trout fan. However, I know greatness when I see it. Yes, he has had a lot of injuries, but he’s still managed to win 3 MVPs and finish 2nd 4 times. I can’t remember how many MVPs David Wright has won. Trout also has a career 85 WAR and a .994 OPS and a 173 OPS+. He’s already a first ballot hall of .famer.
Trout is a unanimous HoF’er. He’ll be in first ballot, 100% vote.
Hall of fame voting should only be allowed by HOF members not writers. I would go as far to say only HOF members that actually played in MLB at least 1 game. They seem the most qualified to determine what a HOF player is.
They have their own biases though. Only need to look at Frankie Frisch to know that that is just gonna lead to a different group of problematic inclusions.
Kenny Lofton and Andruw Jones and Curt Schilling stick out for me as HOF caliber players.
Longevity vs peak? False dichotomy. Its both/and. Subjectivity is in play in determining how much sustained elite play is needed, but best standard imho is comp’s to existing HOF’s at the position in question. Example, modern era catchers in HOF: Pudge, 2420 games at catcher; Bench 2158; Simmons 1771; Fisk 2226; Campanella 1183; Carter 2056; Piazzi 1629; Berra 1699
Mauer 921
Posey 1093
Closest longevity comp to Mauer/Posey is Campanella, even he’s 10-15% up. Otherwise, they both lag , a lot, in longevity/durability…whatever you want to call it. This position more than any other reflects durability as an elite skill. While the offensive #s are there, save for power, the games played are not. What would their stats look like if they were close to even # of games played with others? Speculative to say, but speculative should not be part of HOF vote. Im a soft no on both, maybe over time they look better, but no for now. FWIW.
Utley? Really?
Mauer stopped catching because of multiple concussions. Honestly, suggesting you have to have been an iron man behind the plate to qualify is superficial. Any of those other catchers have 3 batting titles? Did they all have an MVP award? 6 silver Sluggers? Mauer also had 3 Gold Gloves.
Iron man? Your words, not mine. I am simply pointing out a fact-Mauer and Posey played 1/2 less the # of games at the position than those previously elected. The run Mauer had offensively was amazing, but he’s going in as a catcher. The gap between him and the others cannot just be ignored.
It doesn’t have to be ignored since the question of election to the HoF isn’t “Is Joe Mauer the greatest, most durable, most incredible player or catcher who has ever played the game?” The question is whether or not Mauer is one of the greatest players, especially at his position to play the game. Is Mauer a legendary player?
We’ve entered a new era of baseball, especially since 2005. Whether people like it or not, analytics has changed the game dramatically. Careers are shorter. Games and innings played are declining. Despite that, Mauer still produced more value as a catcher than almost any player in history.
Just randomly picking names out of a hat has as much credibility as the BBWAA ballots. These shysters have their hands out at all times especially when it comes to voting season.
Beltre/Wagner/Jones/Mauer/Helton/Abreu
Specifically look at Chase Utley’s stats vs. Bobby Abreu’s and tell me why Utley is more deserving.
Because he played 2nd base? Nah, he broke 150 games 4 times in his career and padded his OBP with hit by pitches while being a generally unlikeable guy. Give me Bobby. The guy was a true Phillies beast.
From a Rockies fan, thank you for voting for Todd. He is Mr. Rockie and the face of the franchise. Lot of people don’t think he deserves it because of Coors, but as you said lifetime .300 hitter and his road splits are better than many HOF 1st baseman. Add in a few gold gloves and he was a premier first baseman in the 2000s. Look forward to seeing his bust in the HOF.
My counterargument for the Coors Effect is that some credit should be given back to them for also dealing with the Coors Hangover Effect. While it’s not to the same degree that Coors boosts offensive stats, it’s been proven that Rockie hitters have their offensive stats nerfed below their usual talent level when they play on the road.
As such, Helton is an easy yes vote for me.
Cheaters should be banned for life. Astors culprits as well as Red Sox culprits.
I’m sure you’ve cheated on something in your life, whether it be your wife (or husband I’m not here to judge) or homework or a test in highschool. I highly doubt you are such a sweet little angel.
The arguably greatest defensive center fielder ever had over 400 home run and no PED allegations and people still won’t vote for the guy. Wow
Also no Beltran wtf, completely shameful. Because he maybe (no 100% proof he was the guy) had a leading part in the Astros scandal in his last season. We are going to bar him even though he is statistically more deserving then most on the ballet? One year of suspicion is going to ruin a career of excellence? Completely ridiculous.
Nobody thinks Beltran was the greatest ever defensive CF. He was great at defense but not that great.
Meanwhile, he still cheated in a different way. Whether that method of cheating is deserving of disqualification is up to individual opinion. Personally, I’d still vote for him.
I don’t know what it being his last season has to do with it. Pete Rose wasn’t even an active player anymore when he got caught gambling and was banned.
Wasn’t talking about Beltran buddy. Andruw Jones. Two separate points.
There needs to be an adjustment to how much each city is represented in the voting bloc. I did some research on this last year. Philly is way over represented compared to other teams. Each city should have the same number of people in the voting bloc with the possible exception of cities like New York or Chicago that have multiple teams. Philly writers extremely biased and there are many of them. St. Louis is also over represented but not quite to philly’s level. Atlanta is underrepresented.
Dang, Maybe I should become a baseball writer….and bring some common sense to the conversation!
Here’s some Facts about the ever under-rated Andruw Jones!
Jones broke into the Majors at the ripe old age of 19, on what at the time, was considered ‘America’s Team’ being broadcast nationally on TBS!
Age 20 was considered his rookie season, where he finished 5th in ROY voting, he then went on to what I would call an OBVIOUS Hall of Fame run, earning a whooping 22.7 WAR in just his age 21-23 seasons!
Unfortunately those probably were the best seasons of his career and I’m afraid many people knock him for that, which is ridiculous to me, cause he did all that in his early 20’s while most MLB players his age were still toiling around in the Minor Leagues!
Altho his overall #’s didn’t mirror his freakish early sucess, he still went on to be a 3+ WAR player for 11(ELEVEN) consecutive seasons,
He has 62.7 career WAR, an even 61.0 WAR from Age 19-30(Compared to D.Wright’s 49.2 career WAR!)
He had 10 straight seasons with 26+ HR’s(only 18HR’s his Rookie year) and 10 consecutive seasons with the Gold Glove Award manning Centerfield and making highlight reel catches almost on a nightly basis!
This guy was a HOF’er when he was 30…somehow people just forgot how good this guy was! Good thing I’m here to remind you! 😉
Merry X-Mas Y’all!!!
I agree. He’s basically a version of David Wright who played MUCH better defense at a harder position. I don’t know how he can vote for Wright but not Jones.
You think CF is harder than 3B? Wow.
The Hall of Fame in baseball has reached joke status to me. Pretending there was no “spitball’ , ‘amphetamines’, scuffing baseballs, ‘drinking during prohibition’, ‘sign stealing’, ‘enhanced numbers during segregation’ is outrageously low level thought…yet ‘steroid use, steroid suspected use’ is a big deal. Managers got elected as all those ‘steroid induced wins’ really helped.
……and of course, the biggest farce of all: Bud Selig ,commissioner and main head-turner is rewarded for his “leadershit” , oops Leadership
Moving to a bigger ballpark was crushing to Mauer. No more cheap HR. Billy Wagner never lead a league in anything except games finished twice. A just show up category.
I don’t need you Marc.
All I need is Bill James
to tell me who belongs in the HOF…..
Mauer had one season in his career where he hit more than 13 home runs. Cheap home runs wasn’t a factor in career performance. For the record, the Metrodome was larger than Target Field.
Metrodome vs. Target Field
Left Field – 343 vs. 328
Left-Center – 385 vs. 371
Center Field – 408 vs. 402
Right-Center – 367 vs. 371
Right Field – 328 vs. 331
The tall right field wall did hurt a lot of lefty power hitters, but Mauer wasn’t a pull hitter, he was an opposite field fly ball hitter.
Well he got two right
If you believe Wright is a HOFer then you must believe that Mattingly was too. Injuries happen. There are lots of players who had HOF trajectory before injuries. Do we put them all in. JR Richard is another who comes to mind.
As I replied above….nobody seems to understand. David Wright has spinal stenosis…which is a condition that develops over time. It’s not an injury.
Spinal stenosis is a narrowing of the spinal column. It’s not something one can cause, or control. Millions of people have it, including me.
Mattingly’s issues were completely different.
Biggest Mets fan – but Wright got hurt just like Mattingly did. it’s not the hall of projections
Wright was not injured. Spinal stenosis is a condition that develops over time. It’s not caused by trauma or injury. Folks in baseball just don’t seem to get it. Do a little research.
It doesn’t matter if it was an injury or not. He was unable to play past his early 30s, which is all that matters as far as Wright’s Hall of Fame case is concerned.
We don’t give extra credit to players who lost playing time to WWII and the Korean War, the strikes in 1981 and 1994-95, or other career-ending natural medical conditions like Prince Fielder, nor will we do so for future candidates who lost playing time to the 2020 pandemic.
@LI Mets So spinal stenosis doesn’t cause pain which prevented Wright from playing? It wouldn’t result in a player being placed on the IL?
You’re the one who doesn’t get it. Aside from that, it’s pretty messed up for you to blame people for getting injuries.
Utley is above the Bill James WAR cutoff for “should be in the HOF.” Despite hurting opposition players on purpose he is white, so he’ll get in…..
Scott Rolen blows away David Wright in WAR but marginal white infielders get in…..
I only see 6 names on this ballot. They contract you to pick 10. If you can’t fulfill your assignment you should be fired.
You writers created this system “pick the best 10”
so if a player asked you if you voted for them you could say “sorry no room.”
It should be a Yes or No on each individual player.
This is the stupidest system ever, but then it was created by baseball writers.
Bill James is God…..
The system is NOT “pick the best 10.” It’s “pick the ones you think are deserving with a maximum limit of 10.”
There is absolutely no reason anyone should have to completely fill out the ballot if they don’t think there are 10 deserving candidates. We’d get quite a few undeserving elections under such a system.
As you said, there is an argument to just removing the 10-player limit, but in such a case the writers would still be just as beholden to not give out votes to those of whom they feel don’t deserve it.
Any hall of fame that doesn’t have Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds in it is a total joke
They cheated. Nuff said.
Yawn. They’re the best players of their generation. Any hall without the best players isn’t worth visiting.
and Pete Rose!
Narducci, if the steroid era put a “stain on the game,” journalists of that era – like you- have a good share of that stain. You saw those guys in person, in locker rooms, at the time. You didn’t report on it b/c you and your employers benefited from the amazing play and HR excitement. You don’t get to act “holier than thou” now when you contrived to and extended the era then. You should put in the effort to determine who is HOF caliber w/o steroids, maybe discount their steroid use, but not disqualify them completely b/c they were “associated with steroids.” Because of all of the above, your whole ballot is suspect.
If “bad” character is going to keep some otherwise deserving players out, then “good” character should give some borderline players a bump. Dale Murphy, for one.
That’s a nice sentiment, but I don’t think Murphy is even borderline.
There are 41 HOF’s with fewer WAR than Murphy. Harold Baines only has 38, 8 fewer than Murphy.
You have to look at more than just WAR, especially since it has significant issues with defense and pitching.
Most fans don’t believe Baines should’ve been elected, either. You can’t just compare to the lowest common denominators.
I was just trying to defend Murphy as borderline. On his performance alone, he shouldn’t get in. If he got credit for good character, he’d be closer.
Why is A Rod even on here ? Lmaoooooo
The Hall of Mediocrity
When Hal Baines was elected to the HOF, that forever ruined the credibility of the voters, and the Hall itself.
To be fair, Harold Baines got in via the Veteran’s Committee, which is former players and execs mostly, not via the regular sportswriter’s ballot.
Besides, there have been worse choices than Baines. I think the absolute worst one was Lloyd Waner. Just don’t use the low ball picks like Baines and Waner when doing direct career comparisons with existing Hall of Famers.
@LI Mets – So why are you posting? Since the HoF is permanently worthless, reading an article about it, and taking time out to comment 87x on it seems kind of odd.
It was nice for Narducci to share his ballot. Kudos on doing that.
If you’re going to vote for Utley and Wright, why not just use all 10 votes to keep 4 other schmohawks on the ballot for an extra year. Neither are getting in.
I agree that Wright is very unlikely, but Utley is a legitimate candidate who could very well be voted in someday. I personally think he falls a little short, but the advanced metrics actually back him up pretty well.
I only mildly disagree with two of your selections, Utley and Wright. They were both very good players, but if you’re making a case for them, how about one for Bobby Grich and Ron Cey? Both of those two were overshadowed by some of their contemporaries, but were just as good, if not better, than Utley and Wright. Also, just a question? Was Sheffield lumped in with the roiding group?
So, no Andruw Jones, huh? That’s disappointing, since he just has the same longevity issues as Mauer, Utley, and Wright, yet he had a much better prime than either Utley or Wright. Seriously, how do you vote for Wright but not Jones?!
I don’t know if the writer is reading these comments, but I have a few questions.
1. Will you vote for Jose Altuve, when his candidacy comes up? He cheated every bit as much as Beltran.
2. Are you penalising Beltran for coming up with an idea? You know he didn’t install the cameras, right?
Altuve has perfectly fine splits and he’s always been great even if you exclude the 2017 season. The guy is also outstanding in the playoffs
You know you also just described Beltran, don’t you?
Beltran never was linked to the trash cans while he was a player
Revoke this man’s vote.. no Andruw jones but utley and wright ? Gtfoh
Chase Utley hall of fame LOL
A HOF player imho should be a player who during his career for a portion was considered at the very least the best at his position. Post season production should also be considered and of course numbers as well. What I am seeing way too often nowadays are good players making the HOF and not the very best. Make the HOF for all time greats!
That rule gets Tim Lincicum but there has been no one suggesting that. Two or three great years than faded away.
I’d say you should read the actual criteria, but I realize that nobody is interested.
How is Manny Sanguillen not in the Hall.
Andruw Jones is the best defensive outfielder of all time. Better than Mays, Griffey, or Edmonds.
If Ozzie Smith is in the Hall of Fame with 28 HR and an OPS+ of 87, then Andruw’s 434 HR and 111 OPS+ make him laughably overqualified.
If we take all of baseball history and select 10 year peaks, throwing out all concern for the lingerers and early flameouts, Andruw is a top 20 baseball player of all time in my book.
The HOF is so watered down now it doesn’t even matter. None of the players mentioned above are HOF worthy. Great players not HOF
For starters the mastermind of the 2017 Astros sign stealing scandal was AJ Hinch. Carlos Beltran was never the manager. Hinch lost his job. All Beltran did is retire. The entire team benefitted from sign stealing. That said almost every team in history has stolen signs. It is not new and a silly reason to not vote for someone. Will you also not vote for Jose Altuve? Next I agree with you on Chase Utley but it brings 1 very important question. Why vote for Utley but not Jeff Kent. Kent drove in 100 runs 8 times won an MVP and has more homeruns than any 2nd Baseman in history. Utley belongs but Kent was better. I disagree on the steroids issue as dozens of players who used steroids and other performance enhancing drugs are already in the Hall from Pud Galvin and Babe Ruth to Kirby Puckett and many others who have through silence avoided suspicion. From the mid 60’s to the advent of testing in 2005 about 80% of players at least experimented with steroids and over 90% with other performance enhancers. It is perhaps cheating but has been going on since the game started. We can more or less prevent it now but before testing that was impossible. I understand the impulse to make an example of the cheats but it is unfair to the few who got caught when 95% never did get caught. Also I might add that K-Rod the reliever should make the Hall too.
The fact that Jeff Kent isn’t in the HOF shows that those who didn’t vote for him are wearing rose colored classes & probably card carrying members of the communist party. Jeff Kent shouldn’t be held out because his teammate was Barry Bonds.
I don’t have a problem with Mauer in the HOF, Uteley is a borderline case and Wright doesn’t belong in there. Absolutely not.
I enjoyed the article. But I’d like to know why in Hell Jeff Kent, Curt Schilling, Lance Bergman, & Jim Edmonds aren’t in the HOF?
Why does big Papi get in? or Harold Baines?
I’d love a reply from the author.
Don Mattingly should be in the HOF not Todd Helton. Matt Holiday is more worthy too.
David Wright? C’mon that’s really a stretch.
Just a question for Mr. Narducci. When it become the Hall of Nice Guys? You don’t vote for “steroid guys” that you say stained the game. Yet you vote for a guy who played well for 5 years and went out of his way on the bases to deliberately injure other players? As you said it’s your ballot. Just wondering how those 2 things are different. Chase Utley is far from a HOFer. Very good player. That’s it. While you wanna leave out Bonds, Clemons etc. All time Greats who yes made mistakes late it there careers. Who made you God?
@Ted
I think it’s east coast bias more than anything else. Utley probably doesn’t get consideration if he played for the Padres or Angels.
The HOF is a joke until Barry Bonds, Pete Rose and Roger Clemens are inducted.
Betting on baseball doesn’t diminish Pete’s numbers. He’s the hit king, and that record is gonna stand for a long, long time.
Back in the days when a “Steroid” was an alien creature in a Sci-Fi movie and not a PED, Bonds and Clemens were already doing their thing way, way better than others did their things.
These “Three Amigos” deserve to be in the HOF. Period!!!!!
@backup catcher.
You’ve got it backwards. Barry, Pete and Roger are the jokers who damaged their own reputations and Baseball by putting themselves above everyone else.
Specifically Pete Rose who used his position as manager to obviously rig the game to win his bets by losing. All the proof I need is that Rose lied and lied and lied about all of it for decades.
Not voting for Beltran is just petty. Sign stealing has. Earn in baseball since it began. Voting for Utley is ludicrous as long as Whittaker and Grich aren’t in. Mauer was a very good player. Not HOF caliber.
It’s beyond ridiculous and too late to fix it.
Is the hall of fame a museum to celebrate the game or the ultimate award for exceptional accomplishments?
It has to be both, but too many exceptional players are refused for it to be a legitimate encompassing museum and too many mediocre players are enshrined for it to be an ultimate reward.
If ethics is to be a criteria there are too many poor representatives already enshrined.
In nearly every case of “cheating” it was a cultural issue that was wide spread, or at least the idea of it being wide spread can not be disproven.
Players were treated so poorly like glorified indentured servants that there simply had to be many many other instances of throwing/point shaving games. Organized crime and gambling were simply too prevalent. It was simply able to be kept under wraps by the social behaviors and lack of media access at the time.
Amphetamines were all over baseball throughout the mid to late 70s giving those players an advantage similar if arguably better than steroids. For a while there were both.
In the late 20th century, steroids ran rampant. Some reports say so many players were doing them that it was hard to find players who weren’t. If you truly want to keep “roiders” out you would need to simply emiminate entire decades of the game.
Sign stealing has always been a part of the game, and in most cases its been known, acceptable, and encouraged. It’s always been up to the other team to figure out how to combat it.
The Black Sox scandal, Pete Rose, and the Astros cheating scandal are all about 1 person or 1 small group of people “tattling” or complaing to someone who then felt obligated to report it as a national crisis. Then MLB did whatever they could to show the masses that it was isolated and avoid a sport wide scandal that would damage their profits.
Until 1/3 of the current members are removed, and/or certain excluded players are put in the HOF is a mediocre representation of the worlds greatest game.
Great comment. To me it’s always about Gaylord Perry. He cheated his entire career and is celebrated. Baseball picks and chooses which cheaters it and which are ostracized.
Agree. Bobby Cox was a wife beater, still eulogized. The 1951 Giants cheated their way to the WS. Ridiculous
@Astosfn1979
Never understood people who revile the whistleblowers and not the doushbag criminals.
Mike Fiers to me is upstanding, moral, and ethical. I wish there were more players like him.
.
Except that Fiers did what he did out of spite because he was kept off the playoff roster and then playing for a rival.
He also KNOWS as much as any player about the systems in place that other teams had, but villified the Astros anyway because his motives where to pay them back for leaving him off the playoff roster.
That does not make him any kind of hero. Quite the opposite in fact
@Astrofn1979
You assume that you know what Fier’s motivations were which is pure speculation and yet again what the cheaters did was somehow okay because you’re sure everyone cheats and you’re an Astros fan.
Okay. Whatever.
You don’t know me from Adam.
Just FTR: Cheating is not OK and the Astros punishment was very deserved in my book.
However MLB’s refusal to acknowledge other teams transgressions and make them the lone bad guy is criminal.
The Astros crossed a line and I am still embarrassed as a fan, but the fact that so many other fan’s and media members keep it alive by continuing to lash out at Astros fans (its the fans they lash out at not the players) is unforgivable.
And yes I think the Astros cheated to an unacceptable level and deserved punishment, and the punishment was fitting. But others got off completely or nearly completely free
And other fans act like their teams ate saints
I have a simple rule that makes my life much easier.
What other people think of me is none of my business. Therefore their opinions do not cause me any Unnecessary Suffering.
In other words, change the things you can & leave the rest to others. Happy New Year to you ‼️
And to you as well !!
I wish you nothing but the best in the present and future.
Let’s hope baseball is fair and entertaining moving forward
Sports writers never should’ve been allowed to vote players into the HOF it should be a committee of people with mixed backgrounds not soley fragile a— sports writers who use their ballots as a standing ground to make players pay for not treating them like Christ like figures. The HOF is a joke bonds is out but guys like papi with the same allegations are in. Either you acknowledge the accusations or come out and say we are petty morons who let personal opinions cost a player his place in the HOF.
We are excluding Jackson for throwing the series. We are excluding Rose for betting on baseball. We are excluding all steroid users. We are keeping out Schilling because of his racism. We are keeping out Beltran for stealing signs. The voters for the Hall of Fame have worked hard to make it less and less relevant.
This guy is a prime example of why the election process needs a complete overhaul.