The Padres have shown interest in Red Sox outfielder Jarren Duran, reports Jon Heyman of the New York Post. They’re not alone in that regard, per the report, which indicates that multiple clubs have reached out to the Boston front office to express interest. There’s no indication any sort of deal is nigh, but Dennis Lin of The Athletic similarly hears that the Sox and Padres have had “recent” trade discussions as part of the Friars’ ongoing search for outfield help. San Diego has also considered a reunion with outfielder Tommy Pham, per Lin, though he further notes that no formal offer has been made.
Duran, 27, would fill an acute need for the Padres, whose only established MLB outfielder at the moment is Fernando Tatis Jr. Beyond Tatis and Jose Azocar, San Diego doesn’t even have an outfielder on its 40-man roster. Non-roster invitees to spring training like Oscar Mercado, Bryce Johnson and Cal Mitchell are among the current options to vie for a roster spot in spring training, although Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic reported earlier in the week that the Padres have also been considering the idea of deploying top shortstop prospect Jackson Merrill in the outfield this season as well. Merrill, the team’s first-round pick in 2021 and the game’s No. 17 prospect according to Baseball America, would also need to be added to the 40-man roster.
Duran is a former top-100 prospect himself, though he just broke through with his first real major league success as a 26-year-old in 2023. The now-27-year-old former seventh-round pick appeared in 102 games for the Red Sox and batted .295/.346/.482 with eight home runs, 34 doubles, a pair of triples and a 24-for-26 showing in stolen base attempts. Duran also trimmed his formerly problematic strikeout rate to a more manageable 24.9%, although his 6.6% walk rate is two percentage points shy of league-average.
While Duran has elite speed — 95th percentile, per Statcast — his route running and lack of arm strength have led to well below-average grades in center field. Defensive Runs Saved is most bearish, pegging him at -19 in just shy of 1200 innings, while Ultimate Zone Rating has him at -10.5 and Outs Above Average has him at -2. Azocar is capable of handling center field, however, so an acquisition of Duran could lead to him slotting into left field in San Diego, where his glovework would grade more favorably.
There are fair questions about whether Duran can sustain last year’s production at the plate, however. Last year’s .381 average on balls in play may not regress all the way to league-average levels, as players with elite speed can turn grounders into hits at a far higher clip, but Duran’s penchant for chasing pitches off the plate (career 35.1%) and below-average contact rate on such offerings has a tendency to undercut his above-average contact skills on pitches within the zone (92.1%).
Boston’s appetite for dealing Duran remains to be seen, but it’s worth noting that he was drafted back in 2018 and the Sox have now turned over their front office twice since making that selection. First-year chief baseball officer Craig Breslow doesn’t have the connection with Duran that predecessors Chaim Bloom and Dave Dombrowski may have. And while Duran is ticketed for a regular role with the Sox as the roster is currently constructed, Boston isn’t short on outfield alternatives.
Were Duran to be moved, the Sox could turn to Tyler O’Neill, Ceddanne Rafaela and Wilyer Abreu from left field to right field, with designated hitter Masataka Yoshida also mixing into the corners on occasion. Roman Anthony, Boston’s second-round pick from the 2022 draft, has already climbed as high as Double-A and recently placed 21st on BA’s Top 100 prospect rankings, creating further depth.
The Padres don’t have that type of outfield depth, due in no small part to years of aggressive win-now trades that have combined to thin out the system. San Diego has also been working to scale back payroll, which would make a pre-arbitration player like Duran a natural target. He’ll very likely be arb-eligible next winter as a Super Two player, but he’d fit the team’s desire to manage payroll during the 2024 campaign. And with just 1.155 years of big league service under his belt, Duran could be controlled for five more seasons.
Lin further reports that while the outfield is the greater focus at the moment, San Diego is still exploring the free-agent market for rotation help. He lists Michael Lorenzen, old friend Eric Lauer, and Hyun Jin Ryu as pitchers with whom the San Diego front office has spoken. Heyman, too, lists Ryu as a potential target for the Padres.
Of the three, Lorenzen is coming off the best and healthiest season. An All-Star for the 2023 Tigers, Lorenzen was traded to the Phillies at last summer’s deadline and thrust himself into the spotlight with a pair of dominant performances to begin his Phillies tenure. The converted reliever began to fade after a masterful 124-pitch no-hitter against the Nationals in early August, however, and his struggles snowballed to the point that the Phils dropped him from the rotation to the bullpen. Lorenzen closed out the year with a dismal 27 earned runs in 30 1/3 innings following that no-hit gem.
Lauer, 28, is a former Padre who went from San Diego to Milwaukee alongside Luis Urias in the trade bringing Trent Grisham to the Friars. He looked to be on his way to a breakout in Milwaukee after adding a slider to his repertoire in 2021, and from ’21-’22 he posted a combined 3.47 ERA in 277 1/3 innings. The 2023 campaign was a disaster that saw Lauer torched for a 6.46 ERA in 46 2/3 innings. Milwaukee optioned him to Triple-A to try to get him back on track, but Lauer yielded a 5.15 earned run average in a near-identical sample of 43 2/3 innings there.
Elbow and shoulder injuries have both sent Lauer to the injured list over the past two seasons. It’s possible that he wasn’t at full strength in 2023, given that pair of IL trips and a major dip in his average fastball (93.3 mph in 2022; 91.2 mph in 2023). If Lauer is at full strength, he’d be a nice buy-low option — particularly since his 4.111 years of MLB service make him controllable through the 2025 season for any team that signs him.
As for Ryu, he pitched well in his return to the Blue Jays following Tommy John surgery. The ten-year MLB veteran notched a 3.46 ERA over 11 starts and 52 innings, though his performance wasn’t without its own reasons for hesitation. Ryu only pitched beyond the fifth inning once in 2023, and the Jays never let him reach even 90 pitches in an appearance. Last year’s 88.8 mph average fastball was a career-low mark, and his 17% strikeout rate was his third-lowest in ten MLB seasons. Ryu was quite homer-prone in 27 innings in 2022 before undergoing surgery, but he was even more susceptible to the long ball last year, yielding nine in his 52 innings (1.56 HR/9).
Lorenzen might still have enough track record and interest to generate a two-year offer in free agency, but it’s likely Ryu and certainly Lauer will be available on one-year pacts that check in under $10MM — well under in the case of Lauer, who’d been projected by MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz for a $5.2MM salary before being non-tendered. San Diego’s current $159MM payroll and $215MM luxury tax projection (via Roster Resouce) should leave some room for additional spending, even as the team looks to cut spending. Last year’s Padres payroll climbed as high as $255MM.
This one belongs to the Reds
Pham Diego?
baseballguru
Take Pham please don’t want him in Boston and it’s a hard NO on Duran because SD has no young controllable pitching. We need trades for SPs and there are other OF in the system to get that done with a Miami or Seattle. Trade Ceddanne Rafaela or Wilyer Abreu before Duran. Bleis & Anthony will be there soon enough, we can afford it in the OF…also think trading Masataka Yoshida and Refsnyder before any of the above.
Wagner>Cobb
Trade for Durran to stick him in LF and sign Ryu. Durran will hit 20 triples per year in SD.
filihok
W>C
I’ll take the under
websoulsurfer
Seems the Padres are set on giving Azocar a shot in CF, so LF might be where Duran would have to play if the rumor is true.
towinagain
Pads and Sox trade just feels like a lateral move for both clubs.
Simm
You complain the padres aren’t doing anything. An article about the padres might do something and you still complain.
How is acquiring Duran a lateral move for the padres when they only have two outfielders on the 40 man roster. Just a dumb comment as usual.
towinagain
Ah Simm, what I come to expect from you.
Have the Padres done anything yet?
No.
Merely showing ‘interest’ doesn’t equate to anything.
Furthermore, the Pads should sign a FA not run the risk in giving up a Kluber for a Ludwick, if you have any recollection of that trade.
So no, trading for a player does not excite me in the least.
Simm
Still doesn’t show how acquiring Duran is a lateral move.
As far as what any padres fan has come to expect from you it’s nothing but negativity.
It’s actually hard to believe you are even a padres fan. Hopefully one day something positive will happen in your life. From here it sure sounds miserable.
towinagain
Giving up too much talent in a trade is a lateral if not lopsided move.
If a trade for Duran involves a Lesko or Snelling than it is a lopsided trade.
Nice diversion, attack me personally to avoid the fact the Padres are not/have not addressed any of their needs.
Simm
You don’t even know what they would give up before you crapped on it. Hence my view on how negative you are.
JoeBrady
Giving up too much talent in a trade is a lateral if not lopsided move.
============================
I think that goes without saying. But I also don’t see any reason for assuming that either side would give up too much talent.
A trade would more likely be needs-based.
beersy
You can’t blame Preller&Co. for that trade. In hindsight, every Padre fan thought it made sense at the time, didn’t work out short term or long term however.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Kim, Lesko, Batten, and Head for Duran, Yoshida, Dalbec, and $20m. Who says no?
El Niño
Padres say no.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
Padres, because that’s moronic.
FanDan
The Padres. What a one sided deal.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
I’m a Padres fan, and I’d do that deal. Gives them two LH OF’s who are controllable for years..helps with their 1B problem this season, and they’re gonna lose Kim anyway..
Simm
Terrible deal for the padres. Yoshida is a dh and isn’t worth 18m, let alone it would put the padres right against the tax line. Has basically zero trade value.
Dalbec has been terrible.
Duran is a regression candidate and isn’t worth even Lesko.
JoeBrady
FirstRoundAdiosMets
I’m a Padres fan, and I’d do that deal.
=======================
Not even remotely close.
Tigers3232
Duran regressing is clearly a real possibility. Also a possibility is him taking another step and maturing at the plate. He definitely has talent but was streaky at times last year.
As for his defense, the one positive is route running issues is something that to an extent can be taught, practiced, and improved. Probably not to expert level but definitely room to grow. He’s obviously not gonna develop some keen ability to get a quicker jump on the ball of that initial reflex on first step, that’s more of a you have it or you don’t. But teaching and practicing ways to take better routes and mitigate taking routes that lead to unnecessary gap hits is very achievable.
That said I think Duran could be a nice addition at right price and assuming team has a reasonable they think can help him improve as a player. Trading on talent and hope alone happens to often with some Franchises and results are very mixed.
Millar101
Duran is the most electric player on the Red Sox he makes defenders hurry throws and is a menace on the base paths. He is super fun to watch and boy can he FLY around the bases!
Tigers3232
He has an electric player on offense when he’s hitting. If he can cut down the streakiness he has a very high ceiling.
Bruin1012
Millar, he is special running around the bases. It’s not just his speed he’s ultra aggressive and he’s like a freight train running into the base. His defense is not real good his speed can make up for some read mistakes but still he’s subpar as a defender.
websoulsurfer
.381 BABIP and 6.6% BB rate points to at least some regression for Duran. 30-40 point drop in BA, OBP and OPS is likely.
Tigers3232
Normally I’d agree. But he was crazy streaky so I think some of the regression can be mitigated by consistency. Guy was so frustrating in Fantasy he’d just catch fire on your bench you put him in get a good game or 2 then his bat would hibernate. Now if he stays streaky I 100% see regression. But if he can stay out of those slumps I think the regression will be balanced out by consistency.
He definitely has a ton of talent though and is exciting to watch.
JoeBrady
Duran is the most electric player on the Red Sox
=========================
I was never a fan of his, but yeah, he is a lot of fun to watch. You just don’t know when a single will turn into a double.
JoeBrady
I’ll take that right now. The midway point is a drop of 35 points, times 2, gives him a .758 OPS.
Ghost of Randy Marsh
30-40 point regression of batting average? I’ll happily take the under at any price. Lol.
Simm
That’s what is expect if his babip regress to his mean. Perhaps he outperforms that again but he isn’t going to keep over a .380 batting bag on balls in play so he will need to continue to improve as a hitter to carry that avg he had last year. Not saying he won’t but the numbers say it’s unlikely
alan.kawadler@verizon.net 2
Not sure about that. I watched him every game and he did manufacture hots with his speed. ZIPS has him at 265.
alan.kawadler@verizon.net 2
Not sure about that. I watched him every game and he did manufacture hots with his speed. ZIPS has him at 265
Harrison Butker's Mount Rushmore Worthy Speech
Padres don’t need Yoshida or Dalbec
So not sure why they are included.
Michael A Taylor I think is still available so not sure why SD hasn’t signed him to man CF and let Merrill and Rosario/Batten platoon LF
FanDan
Taylor is a right handed Trent Grisham that will cost you more than Trent. Padres can’t afford that.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
They need LH controllable bats and a 1B..and rumor has it, the Sox would love to part ways with Yoshida.
FanDan
They still owe him 4 years and $72 million. Yeah, I bet they would like to offload that and Dalbec who can’t hit and Duran who has a standing reservation on the IL.
deweybelongsinthehall
Funny part of Yoshida is I envision a huge season at the plate, getting better adjusted I also believe he will improve at least at Fenway. My real issue is if O’Neill is injured, the team cannot have Devers, Yoshida and Duran all playing the field and to me, Devers should be the DH and either Yoshida or Duran needs to be dealt. I still would love then two moves. Signing both Chapman and Monte.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Dewey..I do too. Feel like he’s a .320/25/90 guy. If I’m AJ, I’m tryin hard to grab him and Duran. As long as they pay that contract down..
deweybelongsinthehall
First, of the Sox pay down the contract, the return has to be something special. What would the team get back? I want either good pitching prospects or real savings that will be put back into Chapman and Duran.
websoulsurfer
Padres don’t need a 1B. They have one. They need a LF, a DH, and a LH starting pitcher.
The Red sox may want to part with Yoshida but he has negative value as a LF and as a DH is only a 109 OPS+ hitter. He is not worth close to his $18.6 million salary.
If the Red Sox were willing to send $50 million along with him, they would probably get some good prospects. Otherwhise, including him is a negative in any trade scenario.
deweybelongsinthehall
Meant Monte.
beyou02215
Padres big no.
James Midway
That is a very laughable deal. Anyone in SD that would make that deal would be run out of town and never allowed to return ala Dean Spanos.
websoulsurfer
Padres hang up the phone while laughing hysterically. Red Sox are on the hook for $75 million for Yoshida still and the only position he can play is DH. Dalbec has negative value.
Salzilla
I didn’t realize the Pads were in that direction need of OF help. What on Earth are they doing?
ClevelandSteelEngines
Could’ve got him for Soto but they went with Nyy bits of fleck
Mynameisnoname
I’m sure NY would love to still have King and Thorpe. Not so sure about bits of fleck.
martras
I would have liked the Twins to push for Duran with Polanco as the centerpiece, but that hope evaporated with Boston acquiring Grissom.
Ketch
The Twins need outfielders like Hawai’i needs sunshine.
martras
The Twins need an outfielder who can cover CF for multiple years because of Byron Buxton and the upcoming departure of Max Kepler. Thanks for playing.
wbz41
Not sure how the Sox would be able to trade one of their best outfielders who is also their #2 starter right now after giolito. .
okbud
If they don’t think he can sustain his production from last year then of course they’d trade him. 21-22 Jarren Duran couldn’t hit, he did in 23.
Me personally, I’d sell high on Duran for pitching.
roiste
The Padres have very little tradeable pitching though. I see why SD wants Duran, can’t see what pieces they could offer Boston that would make sense for the Red Sox
okbud
Then I guess no dice.
websoulsurfer
mlb.com/prospects/2023/padres/
Brew’88
The Pads have 5-6 very high ceiling pitching prospects to trade, and they’ll likely do so.
30 Parks
Trading Duran to fill other needs is a good idea. Sell high – he’s a speedy DH.
Trollfree
30 Parks – 301 chances and O errors in center field in 3 seasons.
Best defensive outfielder on the team. Had a couple of bad routes when he first came to Fenway and people never forgave him despite the outstanding defensive numbers.
Sorry but when you have two guys with MLB potential AND speed and you want to trade one and put the other back in AAA you are pulling a Bloom. Let’s just declare this a tank year if you do it.. Push the recovery back several more years, what does it matter?
I guess you are promoting the good old Red Sox base to base approach to the game and this time without power hitters!!!! Duran and Rafaela are the only two guys who threaten the other team on the bases and the idiotic suggestions of trading them or putting them at AAA infuriate me. I still want the team to develop into a contender and it’s going to take a very long time since all-stars are not being purchased with the over abundance of money the team has.
There are HUGE problems and there are minor tweaks that can be made and the huge problems are Cora, Devers, Yoshida, Story, Giolito, O’Neill and Breslow. There is a lot of BS going around thanks to the morons in the front office marketing.
1 – Rafaela has no issues hitting
2 – Casas fields adequately and will improve
3 – There is NOTHING wrong with Duran’s defense
4 – Abreu’s hitting numbers are over inflated thanks to 3 games that produced most of his hits. He’s the shaky hitter of the young guys.
So, if you want to trade a less than $1MM a year player who is an error free outfielder and our top base stealer because he ran a couple of bad routes 3 years ago, fine do it and stick a fork in the Red Sox for another 5 years.
Tigers3232
I’m high on Duran’s future. But his defense is a bit worse than you are letting on. -19 over 154 games in CF and -6 over 28 in LF. That’s way more than just a few bad routes
deweybelongsinthehall
Worst arm since Mickey Rivers.
Trollfree
Tigers3232 – Baseball Reference has his career stats as follows:
CF – 154 G 135 GS 112 CG 1188.1 Innings 301 CH 298 PO 3 assists 2 Double Plays Fld % 1.000
The bad metric number is completely bogus BIS Defensive Runs Save above Average. Do you have any idea how that number is calculated? His 3 seasons are -5, -9 and -5 without an error. Does simple logic suggest there must be a mistake in the formula? It sure throws a red flag up to me. So lets dig into this horse crap metric.
Straight from the MLB here is the definition:
Definition
DRS quantifies a player’s entire defensive performance by attempting to measure how many runs a defender saved. It takes into account errors, range, outfield arm and double-play ability. It differs only slightly from UZR (Ultimate Zone Rating) in its formula, but the concept is the same.
What’s wrong with the concept? Did you ever play baseball?
How many runs did a defender save? Let’s tear this BS apart first. How do you take a fact like a player catching a ball into a suggestion that it saved a run? Well if there are two outs and he misses it he DID NOT save the run but he’s made no errors so that can’t be it. How else can a player not save a run? By not getting to a ball? Since Duran is extremely fast you have to ask how he would not get to a ball that a slow guy might get to. Answer – It doesn’t happen. Ok so then how else can he be blamed for allowing a run to score without making an error? By being positioned improperly? Does the fielder pick where he stands when he plays defense or is there a card in his hat telling him where to stand for each batter? So to suggest poor positioning goes against him is simply wrong. So what else causes a player to allow a run to score when there is no error? An errant throw? No, because that would be an error so that can’t be it.
You tell me how can a guy who makes no errors, is one of the fastest players in the outfield and does not make errant throws receive a -5 rating? Every component of the definition above has been addressed yet with no errors his rating is -19 after three seasons. Does that make any sense to you?
I’ll tell you how this happens. The creator of this value for this company has built an unidentified formula that takes into account each specific play and compares it to an bogus industry average and they live with the result right or wrong. They sell it hard to the public as being right but since the fielding metrics first began they have been bogus. They have tweaked them a thousand times and they can’t get it right because NO TWO SCENARIOS ARE IDENTICAL and to compare something to a bogus average is meaningless.
Call me old school but if a guy makes no errors, has a huge range and doesn’t make throwing errors then his errorless results speak for themselves. Trying to simulate a real situation by using average of averages is completely bogus.
Thus, you tell me, what’s wrong with Duran’s fielding? Metric morons point to the bogus estimate called Rdrs which has no basis in reality. A guy’s reputation is being ruined by an undefined formula using averages of averages to estimate if a player is doing well or not and ignoring the fact that every ball hit to area of coverage is being caught within score keeper standards. Want to point the finger at the scorekeepers because they cheat for guys like Devers, I’m ok with that. I can go back into the last three years and see how many misplays happened in CF for Duran since in 2022 Devers had 52 and only 14 errors but I doubt it will be a significantly high number for his 301 chances in center field.
Use simple logic for a second. Intuitively speaking, if a guy makes NO ERRORS in CF in 301 chances and his bogus number is -19, he makes ONE ERROR in 34 chances in LF and his rating is -1 and he makes ONE ERROR in 17 chances in RF and his number is 2!!! Doesn’t it sure seem like the formula his a hot mess? His best performance is rated worst and his worst performance is rated highest? That’s ridiculously illogical yet you believe it because it’s a METRIC!!!
In 2023 Devers made 19 official errors which puts him at over 50 misplays yet that piece of crap fielder had a rating 0f -9 for 370 chances and a horrendous fielding percentage of .949.
If 19 errors in 370 chances gets you a -9 and 0 errors in 301 chances gets you a -19, DO YOU THINK THE METRIC IS ACCURATELY REFLECTING THE TWO PLAYER”S FIELDING ABILITY? If so, then you are both illogical and clearly never played the game because you believe the BS coming out of these ridiculously contrived estimates made by non players to generate interest in theoretical possibilities instead of reality.
Bruin1012
Agree he’s not good defensively errors aren’t everything he’s a very poor route runner. He’s better than Masa he should play left where his arm is better suited. He’s a below average centerfielder but he has truly game changing speed and aggressiveness as a hitter he has value.
Tigers3232
Yes I played baseball my whole life and played at Division II Hillsdale. That however does not make me smarter than anyone in regards to baseball. I rarely mention it as Hullsdale is no baseball power house or anything nor do I find it worth gloating over or care what you think in that regard. But when you start tossing around “did you ever play baseball” because somewhat doesn’t like your opinion, you sound like a fool with a shallow ego and just needed to point out how far off the mark you were.
However in the case of Duran his defense runs saved are so bad because he covers little ground and has a horrible arm. If you watch him play you would understand why his fielding % is high and errors low. You have to get near a ball to miss out or make an error. His route running is atrocious which is somewhat correctable.
Before you try tossing words around like illogical, you should try instead of looking at a brief description of DRS look and read in depth how it is derived. And no they are not theoretical possibilities, anyone who has watched Duran and field can see he’s not even near let alone trying to make a play on balls that anyone at that position has the range to get to. And errors is a horribly flawed measure of fielding, one could stand still and avoid many errors. A fieldable ball is a fieldable ball, it does not take theoretical #s to see a player who his not making plays on a ball or missing opportunities on balls that are well within his range.
And BTW my itintial reply I disagreed rather politely. No need to be a prxck, if you feel like discussing baseball in a civil manner I’m all for it. I’m not here to argue tho with someone who is trying to validate themselves for shortcomings elsewhere in their lives. So if it’s an argument you seek I’m not indulging.
Have a great evening!!
Bruin1012
Very well played Tigers very well played.
Tigers3232
cbsnews.com/boston/news/red-sox-defense-embarrassi…
You wanna ignore this play here that he couldn’t even back up a throw from catcher that passes him in the OF. A simple Google search will give you countless articles and references critical of this guys defense. So you can call DRS flawed all you want or try and point to lack of errors. But there’s a long list of people being critical of his defense. His own Manager Cora is quoted in some of these.
Tigers3232
Like I said I’m a fan of his. His route running is really bad. With his speed I’d think they should focus on him taking a step back getting a better read on the ball then reacting. It’s very rare that I’d ever consider anything but first step and go, but if he’s gonna be in the field he’s gotta somehow get better reads. He’s also gotta throw on the move, his arm is very weak to be in the OF on MLB level, alot of people are gonna be taken the chance on an extra base challenging him and seems they ll do so with a lot of success.
websoulsurfer
DRS says FAR below average. -19 in 154 games in CF.
baseball-reference.com/players/d/duranja01.shtml#s…
deweybelongsinthehall
Lose the mic and your. Your rants won’t be as long and perhaps some will read what you post…
deweybelongsinthehall
Bruin. Duran in left would be fine if Mookie and JBJ completed the trio. The team will lose more games via bad defense and extra pitches thrown using both Yoshida and Duran together. Add in Devers at third and it guarantees fighting for last and possibly injured arms due to being tired/overused.
JoeBrady
But his defense is a bit worse than you are letting on. -19 over 154 games in CF
=======================
You need to consider the trends.
-5 in 215 innings
-9 in 416
-5 in 557
Also -0- OAA in 2023. Still not good, but he is much improved. Just for comp purposes, Ellsbury was -15 in 2009.
Bruin1012
Dewey I’m in hopes that Rafaela hits enough to take center from Duran. Duran would be fine in left with Rafaela in center and Abreu in right. That’s a very solid defensive outfield.
Trollfree
Tigers3232 – The reason I asked if you played is not to get your history of achievements but to gather the level of understanding you might have with regard to routes to the baseball, overall conditions of the field, wind, sun, other outfielders playing next to you, pre=pitch positioning and challenges of the many different outfield configurations in baseball. Congrats on your brilliant career but you clearly didn’t understand where I was going with my comment.
I think it’s amazing during a 162 game season that you remember each route run by a specific outfielder. If you are like Bruin1012, you think you have perfect recall but what it really is can be summarized as biased thinking once you observe a route you feel was run incorrectly. Your perception is biased by the one observation or two if you are actually able to somehow play back routes as if that is part of your normal watching of a game.
If you have outfield experience you should know that the sound off the bat is often an indicator of the potential depth of a fly ball or line-drive. If you have outfield experience you know that wind velocity changes constantly on some days and hardly at all on other days. So applying generalized principals to specific flights of the ball is completely bogus. To suggest a formula that does vector analysis of the route using all the variables of that specific moment in time is NOT happening. That’s what it would take for a program to evaluate a route. Instead, there is a start point, an end point and the specific direction of the player. That’s all the formula can do to consider route efficiency. The data is captured in ways that are not terribly accurate so the whole thing is a very gross guess.
Here is an example of why defensive metrics are BS. If the ball lands at point B and the player starts at point A and it’s not a straight line then the player is running a bad route to the ball but is that necessarily true? NO. Why? Because EVERY play is unique. If the player projects a path of intercept to the flight of the ball they do it with limited information. The velocity off the bat isn’t known by the player it is estimated based on sound and sight. If the wind is negligible as the player approaches the path of the baseball and it suddenly gusts then the initial trajectory by the player will not be maximized yet if you think about it, it is maximized because had the player ran directly to B on a straight line they would have been too deep so the calculated route is actually wrong due to the circumstances of the individual flight of the ball. That’s why this metric has such a high coefficient of error.
The Devers vs Duran example should jump out as an example of when the formula doesn’t work. To suggest a player who is absolutely miserable at defense has less runs not saved than a player that caught every ball to them is absurd. Also, it suggests that runs saved is a measurable value and it’s not. Contrived numbers being used to evaluate players is as biased as one can get. There is NO ACCURACY in the numbers except that a company has paid to force these numbers down the public’s throat as marketing BS for baseball.
Anytime you want to start calling inaccurate estimates facts you are ruining the game. Suggesting runs saved matters is to suggest a hypothetical is the basis of valuing a player. It’s absurd.
I prefer the accuracy of stats over the BS of estimates made in a one size fits all world.
So I’m sorry you misinterpreted why I asked about whether you played or not. Since you did it’s far easier to explain all the nuances of catching a fly ball in 30 different parks under 162 different wind conditions, field conditions, and volumes of sound from the bat hitting the baseball.
As a person with a background in statistics I am offended by the over simplifications that stat websites use to provide estimates that are not accurate. Players reputations are harmed by the inaccuracies of their formulas and their misuse of industry averages.
The only accurate numbers are the facts recorded during the game and those still have a margin for error thanks to the recent increase in bad accounting by score keepers.
The new metrics are a derivative of simulation games. You can pretend to play something 1000 or 1 million times and suggest that the coming event will happen as suggested. It’s no more accurate than me telling what I think will happen but for some reason, fans aren’t smart enough to figure out the future is NOT predictable. Neither are the what-ifs involved in an estimate like DRS. It’s all simulation with generalizations driving the number not actual facts. I’ll take the guy with no errors over the guy with lots of errors but has a greater range, a better path to the ball and a stronger arm. The world of baseball will always be binary. You are either out or you are not. If you get the out, the defender wins the battle. If you don’t the hitter wins the battle. It’s just that simple unless you want to pretend you can predict the future like these metric company do.
Tigers3232
When you question if one has ever played the game you are being a condescending prxck. But that’s not really relevant.
No I never claimed to remever every route Duran has ran or noticed all he’s failed to run that he should have. Watching him it’s pretty obvious he’s a weak OF. He also has a weak arm and people will be taking an base often successfully challenging his arm. This is no hidden secret here.
Tigers3232
@Trollfree Duran flat out does not get to balls he should. Many he attempts to and is not close enough to make an error. Ots not theoretical whatsoever. Runners also will and have stretched singles into doubles challenging his weak arm. Those things lead to runs scored. The guy simply is not a good OF if he does not improve.
Trollfree
Tigers3232 – Your link refers to a game where there were many mistakes and Cora threw his team under the bus at a time when he lost the clubhouse. Duran is a sidebar in that article and there was no error nor should there have been a negative run saved charged to him, it should have been on the guy who threw the ball.
If you understood how disruptive Verdugo was you might understand why there might have been a distraction for him to deal with during the play. But lets not let facts cloud the prejudice you are portraying here!!
Don’t read to much into Bruin1012’s comments. He’s an idiot when it comes to discussing facts versus what he sees and nobody else does.
Trollfree
TIger – The route running is your opinion and you are entitled to be wrong. Center fielders don’t take a step back to read the ball. His arm strength is below average BUT when you consider the number of center field assists per year in the majors that might cost him 1 or 2 assists per season. Devers misplays 50 balls or more per season. Boston isn’t not not making the playoffs due to his arm or his routes if he keeps catching everything he gets to with his speed.
Just an FYI… in 2023 one CF had 10 assists, Doyle from COL, then Harris had 8, Robert had 7, Friedl and Straw had 6. That’s your top 5. Duran had 2. So his defense overall IS NOT hurting the Red Sox. To focus on Duran or Casas on defense is crazy when you have Devers or even Yoshida.
Wake up call – The Red Sox made 102 errors in 2023.
Devers only got charged with 19 or roughly 19% of the errors on 379 total chances which is 6.3% of the total chances!!!
Duran was error free but could have made two more assists if his arm was a bit more like Rafaela’s. Gee, Duran sure seems like the problem for the Red Sox, lets trade him!!! WOW. Talk about not focusing on the real problems to cheap shot ONE specific player.
Trollfree
websouldsurfer – Think about the optics I listed above.
NO ERRORS and a -19 DRS. Clearly a mistake.
No basis in reality.
Devers 19 errors. and a -9 DRS. Seems like -19 would make more sense especially if you count the 38 misplays that also happened during the 2023 season. But hey why let the obvious obscure the prejudice being spread by a bad formula!!!
If this ONE DRS is so grossly inaccurate, how many others are because the formula is bogus?
Trollfree
Dewey = I’m not really interested in discussing baseball with fans that count the words. A good discussion should never be limited.
Trollfree
Dewey – When it comes to club defense Devers is the JUPITER of errors and Duran is not even Pluto. Same with Casas. There is no reason to point out their errors as long as Devers gets to play defense. The team will be at the bottom on defense no matter what. 20% of the errors come from one guy. Bickering over guys like Duran and Casas is irrelevant. This team is in such bad shape that BIG PROBLEMS need to be solved not the niceties that could fine tune a 95 win team.
Trollfree
Joe – Do you have a source that documents each play or game that shows where Duran got the negatives since he didn’t miss any fly outs or line-outs?
That’s the beauty of publicizing nebulous estimates that can’t be easily traced, you have to take the company’s word for it whereas you can look up an error and find the play and the game it happened in and judge for yourself with video.
Tigers3232
His route running being bad is not just my opinion. Most experts, analysts, and even some of his coaches have said the same.
And I’m well aware CFs don’t take a step back. I made that clear that I’d normal never say it. But being fastest to make a mistake benefits nobody either. That is simply how bad his defense is.
websoulsurfer
Duran is not a good CF on defense. Neither DRS nor OAA like his defense so far. Errors are a terrible measure of defense.
baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/jarren-duran-…
baseball-reference.com/players/d/duranja01.shtml#s…
JoeBrady
His OAA was -0- last year. By definition, does that mean is outs below average was also -0-?
Trollfree
Websoulsurfer – You choose to give credibility to the defensive metrics but not everyone does. Read what I wrote about the formula, maybe you’ll see the light or maybe you are to vested in the simulation crap to count on the real numbers. Everyone has the right to be wrong. Metrics are wrong. They aren’t facts. They are poor estimates.
Trollfree
web – my source says anyone who believes in metrics is a fool. Errors say Duran is an all-star level center fielder. Even his arm strength is poorly calculated. Does the metric simply measure velocity? Does it incorporate the vector of the throw compared to his vector of momentum? If you don’t know the answer to the questions, why do you believe their information? You might as well ask the hot dog vendor.
James Midway
Spring training starts on Sunday so this might be a good time to add to the roster.
Blackpink in the area
I really wish traderumors would work with the trade simulator people and present the players trade value when doing an article like this. It helps both sites give credibility to the topic.
Now having said that they have Durran at 34 million in surplus value and that seems rather high to me.
Simm
That trade simulator is hot garbage. It’s for fans to play in fantasy land.
Blackpink in the area
It’s freaking February and we are on a site called trade rumors talking about trades that haven’t happened yet and probably never will.
What on earth do you think we are doing here?
Simm
This is a trade rumors site, not a trade simulator site. Plus I’ve been to the site a bunch of times and you can make tons a trades that no team would ever do. The people who believe in that simulator can go there and play around with it. Doesn’t provide any value to this site in my opinion.
Blackpink in the area
So you went to the site and tried to make nonsense trades to prove something you wanted to believe?
Name a trade and I will tell you why it makes sense or why it wouldn’t happen. Not all values are correct but they are usually close.
I will repeat this is a trade rumors site. It’s all fantasy land.
Blackpink in the area
Look at the trade values for the Soto trade. They were close. That’s a trade that actually happened and one you should be plenty familiar with.
padrepapi
The Soto trade where King was more valuable than Soto per simulator plus it took 3 additional young pitchers?
Or the first Soto trade where 2.33 years of Soto had a 170m surplus value where with 1 year he had only 23m in surplus value?
Blackpink in the area
The first Soto trade probably did lead to them giving up that kind of value. The Padres gave up a ton to get him. I don’t recall the values of those guys at the time and I take it you don’t either so not aire what your point is.
I thought 23 million was a bit light for Soto and it appears it was because the Padres got more than that back although King is rather difficult to put a value on.
Nobody said it’s perfect. But it’s better than just throwing random ideas at a wall.
JoeBrady
Not all values are correct but they are usually close.
=====================
The BTV thing is like most other BB numbers. As long as one does not make the mistake of thinking of them as gospel, then there is no need to ignore it.
Blackpink in the area
Yeah nobody said act as if it’s fact. But why not have the 2 sites work together to help give each other credibility? The people complaining about that are probably the ones on Facebook whining about electric cars. They fear change.
Simm
Maybe mlbtr doesn’t think it adds credibility. I certainly don’t see the need.
vpsd
Uh no the trade simulator actually rejected the Soto trade as a large overpay by the Yankees, to such an extent that the BTV people had to go on twitter and explain themselves
JoeBrady
Some of this depends on how you view WAR. On the simplest level;, King was worth 3.2 bWAR, and Soto worth 5.5. So two years of King is worth 0.9 WAR more than Soto.
In addition, Soto costs $28M than King.. That’s worth another 3 WAR..
Further, Brito and Vazquez have some talent.. Even if it is middle relief/high-leverage BP spots, that’s 12 years of control
I think SD did much better in the long run.
Blackpink in the area
Well with the Padres Yankees trade you have 2 very different players in Soto and King. Soto is consistent and about as reliable as it gets. And he’s probably going to crush it in New York. With King he’s a total unknown. He very well might have a great year but he could end up back in the pen or get hurt because of the extra innings he pitches. He’s a much riskier player.
websoulsurfer
The BTV take on the Soto/Grisham trade was that it was a huge overpay by the Yankees. they caught so much flack for that, that they went on Twitter and argued the point for more than a week.
That same site said that a Grisham for Cole trade would be a bad trade …FOR THE PADRES.
Same with Grisham for Judge.
Or Grisham for Lindor.
Or … do I need to go on about how bad that site is. Ignore it.
filihok
JB
“Some of this depends on how you view WAR. On the simplest level;, King was worth 3.2 bWAR, and Soto worth 5.5. So two years of King is worth 0.9 WAR more than Soto.”
Well, that’s the wrong way to deal with WAR. It looks at the past, not the future
JoeBrady
He’s a much riskier player.
===========================
But the risk cuts both ways. He might be better, or he might be worse. So maybe he drops to a 2 WAR player, or maybe he is a 4 WAR player.
I still feel comfortable projecting the same WAR over two years that Soto gets over one year.
JoeBrady
Well, that’s the wrong way to deal with WAR. It looks at the past, not the future
===========================
Of course, but how else do you predict future results without looking at past results?
WAR looks at past statistics, and past statistics are used to predict future statistics.
filihok
JB
“Of course, but how else do you predict future results without looking at past results?
WAR looks at past statistics, and past statistics are used to predict future statistics.”
Sure
But you can’t just say that a player was worth ‘WAR in 2023 so they will be worth h
The same WAR in 2024 and 2025. Well, you can, but you can also be smarter than that,
Thr easiest thing to do is look st projections
FG Depth charts, for example, have King at 2.3 WAR for 2024 and Soto at 6.3
JoeBrady
I have no problem with different folks taking different slants.
But: even 2.3 * 2 for maybe $8M is still better than 6.3 for $31M.
You’d be giving away 1.7 WAR for a savings of ~ $23M., That said, I’d be comfortable wagering that King will have more WAR/$$$ over the next two years than Soto will this year.
Of course, WAR’s value is different for different teams, but I see no way that the other three prospects can’t more than make up for the difference.
Trollfree
Joe – Predictions are guesses. If you want to trend and believe in it that’s fine but it’s no more accurate than your opinion or mine. If you want to build a fancy simulation that estimates the future that too has no more precision than the trending or the guesses. It’s the future.
My issue is with suggesting your guess is better than someone else’s. Great confidence but no factual support.
WAR OPS, OPS+ are all guesses about the future or in the case of WAR it’s a guess at the past which to me is insane. Why not just use the real stats to compare players? There is no accuracy in normalization. It’s like the world decided STRAT-O-MAGIC was reality. There is a spinner!!!! It’s guesses and probabilities and not accurate. Just like trying to compare player A to player B is fun but not accurate. Yes, Bonds hit more HRs than Aaron who hit more than Ruth but to determine the best hitter is a hypothetical just like all WAR numbers. Fun to play with, fun to use in arguments but not factual. They are hypothetical estimates. That’s all.
Tigers3232
Well Blackpink/Joel that would take away visitors to the trade link website which is not in their best interest. Clearly your knowledge of business parallels your baseball knowledge….
You are such a poser, the very epitome of a fan of sports news and stats yet clueless of the nuisances of the game. Just a few months ago you were trying to argue that being a lefty doesn’t limit one position wise. Once you were piled upon it was clear you really hadn’t known something so basic. Fast forward to a few wks ago you were argue all you know of a pitcher and how much you watched. You tried to proclaim his usage of a pitch he has never once thrown in his career.
You are baseball illiterate and a poser!!!
Motor City Beach Bum
Stop listening to HAL2000 the Trade Simulator! He is full of it. Think for yourself.
Blackpink in the area
Think for yourself doesn’t work because you have a personal bias. You start talking about Tigers trades and suddenly all your players are super valuable and the ones the Tigers would acquire are not.
It’s not factual it’s like a prospect list. It’s something to go on and it makes for good discussion.
El Niño
@ blackpink The trade simulator said Gerrit Cole for Trent Grisham was an overpay for the padres. Enough said.
I’m pretty sure the people who push it on this site are marketing it.
Motor City Beach Bum
Yes, just be a follower. Have fun following HAL2000 dude.
It is fun to talk about potential trades. Everyone thinks their team is the best…that’s what fans are supposed to do. Everyone overvalues their prospects too. Prospects are capital to fill needs. As an example, I hate the Yankees but I applaud them for the Soto trade. Unproven players for one of the best players of his generation. I like it.
Blackpink in the area
Gerrit Cole makes a giant pile of money. That is factored into the value which apparently you don’t understand. And I still think his value was a little light.
You have to understand how to use the simulator not just look for reasons it’s wrong. If the Padres could afford Cole they would still have Soto along with Grisham.
Blackpink in the area
Of course you like the Soto trade from the Yankees perspective you aren’t paying the bills. Again you have to have an understanding of how salaries work and that’s what the simulator helps provide.
El Niño
@blackpink hahahahahaha there is not a person in the world that would consider Grisham for Cole even remotely fair regardless of extraneous factors, unless they are advertising for that site.
Blackpink in the area
So they were wrong about the value of Cole. So what??? Money matters. If you have money to spend you can sign Snell or Montgomery right now.
El Niño
@blackpink the simulator said trading a bonafide ace for a defensive replacement was unfair for the team trading away the defensive replacement. I’m done here.
Blackpink in the area
Why do you think that same team that had Grisham traded away Juan Soto? Because he’s not any good????
Salary matters. Like I said if you have tons of money to spend on a starter you can sign world champ Jordan Montgomery or 2023 Cy Young winner Blake Snell and not have to trade away anything to get them.
Motor City Beach Bum
You are basically calling everyone who disagrees with you a idiot. Baseball existed long before HAL2000. Find a new best friend. Maybe the Trade Simulator was that dude you said was impersonating you?
Blackpink in the area
All I said was the sites should work together and you are saying it’s an idiotic site. Talking about nonsense trade rumors like this totally cool but using trade simulator that’s silly sure.
None of it is fact it’s something to go on. Shoot if the simulator is wrong about a particular value that can be discussed. Or we could just argue like idiots like we are doing now…..
Motor City Beach Bum
Trades are about needs and fits too which dont get measured on that site. But…nothing wrong with using tools to help figure out fits, so if you like HAL2000 then by all means. I just find some values are way off on it. Bryant has wayyyyy less value than Baez on there for instance and Baez was the 2nd worst hitter in the league. Its a tool not an absolute measure of a players value.
Blackpink in the area
Nobody said it’s an absolute measure of a players value. Nothing is an absolute measure of a players value. It’s something to use that’s better than a biased opinion.
JoeBrady
Bryant has wayyyyy less value than Baez on there for instance and Baez was the 2nd worst hitter in the league.
=============================
I haven’t seen the numbers, but IMO, Bryant is a lot more underwater. I wouldn’t pick up Bryant without the Rox picking up at least $98M of his salary, and Baez remaining liability is only $98M.
Blackpink in the area
Yeah the Bryant deal pretty sure has a lot more money left on it that’s probably why it’s considered worse.
Trade simulator factors this stuff in that casual fans sometimes forget. Again it’s not perfect but it’s better than some random dudes opinion.
Motor City Beach Bum
Again calling people stupid without coming out and saying it. Have fun with your best friend HAL2000.
Tigers3232
Blackpink/Joel is a buffoon. The same guy who doesn’t understand why lefties don’t play certain positions. Yet here he is arguing ignorantly again. He’s proposing a site that is well received for baseball news attach itself to some flawed trade simulator that wouldn’t seem to add much substance and only could damage credibility. He also fails to realize the simulator is all the other site has to offer, for their end it would only decrease traffic and ultimately harm their site.
Sorry, I just can’t take this poser Joel/Blackpink anymore. The dude clearly is just a fan of stats and sports news. Yet this fool trues talking down on others and he doesn’t understand the most basic nuisances of the game. He’s a pure #s dork and probably would have trouble hitting a ball off of a tee….
Tigers3232
When you say casual fans are you talking about people who don’t understand why lefties don’t play certain positions?? It is hilarious that you of all people would say casual fan Joel. You are a poser a fan of stats and news you time and time again show you do not understand the sport itself.
Trollfree
Blackpink – Let me ask you what makes for the best opinion?
Does it need to be accurate after the fact? None of the modern metrics are yet people profess them as if they are the baseball bible not bogus estimates from contrived data.
The future is completely unpredictable so to argue over numbers provided by a website or a hot dog vendor is silly. Both are not likely to be right. In fact, most estimates are not right. So who do you trust? NOBODY.
In 2024 Acuna may steal the most bases but that’s not guaranteed it’s a guess. Just like calling heads before a coin toss.
So let me suggest to you that arguing over what will happen in the future is pointless except it gives you a chance to provide your opinion. If you have no opinion and use data from other sources then your adopted opinion is fun to argue but it’s not right. It’s just what you believe as is the opinion of the other person in your disagreement.
Blackpink in the area
You seem to be confused. I never said the site is fact I said the 2 sites should work together and it would lead to better discussions instead of whatever this is. Have another drink.
Tigers3232
The trade simulator site only has trade simulation values to offer. If another site provides that, then nobody needs them. Hence no site traffic. And you are theorizing it would lead to better discussions l, if you haven’t noticed it seems like one singular person referencing trade simulators on here. For discussion the topic has to be well received, not really seeing that here whatsoever. Sorry just being honest
Tigers3232
And a key thing BeachBum brought up which trade calculators can’t quantify is position needs. Those are critical, I don’t see much value for trade calculators other than Fantasy Sports.
Tigers3232
And does this trade calculator factor on market size, TV deals, marketability of player, revenue player brings in?
MLB is a business that is a sport. That is first and foremost unless a trade calculator is quantifying all the business aspects of each contract it should not be weighing talent against salaries. Mega deals like Cole’s are just as much about branding a product as they are on the field production.
websoulsurfer
Joel P, Cole provided $30.6 million in surplus value LAST SEASON.
If his age regression is in the normal range for top of the rotation starters from his age 33-37 seasons, he will provide over $80 million in surplus value over the balance of his contract.
Over the next 2 seasons Grisham, based on his last 2 seasons performance and this website’s arbitration projection system, is projected to provide $27.4 million in surplus value.
BTV is ridiculous. That you keep trying to bring it up in the face of hundreds of comments telling you that it is ridiculous is pathetic. Give it a rest.
vpsd
It’s right sometimes and wrong others. The problem is people using it as gospel to support their mock trade proposals
JoeBrady
Nothing is an absolute measure of a players value.
=====================
Very few derived statistics are absolutes. Too many people at a single statistic and treat it as gospel.
filihok
vpsd
“It’s right sometimes and wrong others. The problem is people using it as gospel to support their mock trade proposals”
I haven’t seen the actual data, and I’m guessing neither you nor the other people here trashing it have either,
In my experience, it’s been right a heck of a lot more often than it’s been wrong, I usually listen to their podcasts and they review most trades and signings, and when there’s a significant difference between what the model says and what happens, they discuss reasons for that.
The model is more accurate with players with more major leagueexperience – for what should be obvious reasons.
Sometimes there are market issues they haven’t fully accounted for. Sometimes they stand by their model and say something was an overpay,
They aren’t perfect over there, but they are pretty good. And I’d definitely take them over the vast vast majority of commenters here as well as having to look up all the info to do the analysis myself.
It’s a tool. That’s what it’s to be used for.
If anyone disagrees with what it says, they are free to say so. Even better if they say why they disagree. That, they almost never do, which makes their argument weaker and the BTV model’s argumen stronger since the commenter never shows any level of understanding
JoeBrady
can’t quantify is position needs.
==========================
But I don’t think that’s the purpose. It also doesn’t quantify team direction, which is just as important. A contender will be more willing to take a beating on a couple of prospects if they think it gets them to the WS.
Most of the amateurs just want to see if the trade is even, or more accurately, they want to see their team “win” the trade.
JoeBrady
That’s the same with every stat and has been going on forever.
filihok
Tigers
“And a key thing BeachBum brought up which trade calculators can’t quantify is position needs. Those are critical, I don’t see much value for trade calculators other than Fantasy Sports.”
I don’t see much value in a saw because it kinda sucks at hammering nails.
The BTV site doesn’t attempt to account for,those things. It attempts to value player performance relative to contract status. It does that well, as its history has shown.
Once you use the saw to cut the wood to the right size, you can use a hammer to nail it together. Likewise, one can use BTV to value the players and then use their own knowledge to determine the fit between teams.
Yes. A tool will suck if you try to use it for something it wasn’t decide to do. But, if you do that, that’s on you, not the tool.
And, before you chime in with “I don’t need help,calculating player value. I’m way better at it than BTV”
1) how do you know? Have you ever tested your ability? They have. And they use that info to improve their model
2) Maybe you are. But basic (Bayesian) reasoning would suggest that you aren’t. Most people aren’t. If they were, this tool wouldnt need to exist. You’re a person. Thus, you’re probably not. Further, nothing you’ve commented here suggests that you are better than the model. Further still, your comments here make it more likely that you are worse than the model,,because you’ve shown yourself to not understand how modeling works. ,
filihok
Tigers
“He’s a pure #s dork and probably would have trouble hitting a ball off of a tee….”
For the sake of argument, let’s assume that is true,
Player valuation is largely numbers. Why do you think teams are hiring MBA’s and data scientists and not dudes who hit 3 home runs in one game in high school?
filihok
EN
“The trade simulator said Gerrit Cole for Trent Grisham was an overpay for the padres. ”
When did it say this
It currently values Cole at 18 million and Grisham at $10 million
Either,
1) you are incorrect
2) they changed their valuation
filihok
MCBB
“Everyone thinks their team is the best…that’s what fans are supposed to do. ”
Why?
Why do you think fans can’t try to have accurate assessments of their favorite team?
Blackpink in the area
As I said they were wrong about Cole. So what? It doesn’t make the whole site worthless.
What do you use to determine fair trade value for players? You tell me I will hang up and listen.
Blackpink in the area
Who does that vpsd?
Motor City Beach Bum
I didn’t sat they can’t. I’m a fan, not Mr Spock so Joel isn’t wrong that a fan of their team will quite often allow the fact we want our team to win and see more of our own players than other teams, to influence our opinions. For instance, I think Skubal has a great shot at the Cy Young this year, Hinch for manager of the year and Keith for ROY. They are all my picks, and I don’t mind admitting my picks are likely influenced by my familiarity with the three people named.
Motor City Beach Bum
It’s a tool that can help factor in assessing player value for a trade, but there are other things to consider as well (player evaluations from experts, team needs, the market, team surpluses at positions et al). It can’t provide player value in a vacuum but I agree it has some use in doing so.
JoeBrady
I think Skubal has a great shot at the Cy Young this year,
===========================
This kind of parallels why I like the King trade so much for the Padres. Skubal trended really well last year. Without even looking at BTV, I wouldn’t trade Skubal even up for almost any one-year player.
vpsd
I actually disagree with it a lot. If a Duran trade happens I’d bet all my money on the price being under what BTV has set his surplus value at.
vpsd
They changed their valuation
paddyo furnichuh
Those are not kind words, Dave.
filihok
MCBB
“Stop listening to HAL2000 the Trade Simulator! He is full of it. Think for yourself.”
Very strong “I did my own research” vibes
Motor City Beach Bum
You actually made some valid points above (more accurate for MLB players with a track record, doesn’t account for the market). Joel just makes obnoxious comments and intimates that everyone else is an idiot like Tigers2323 said. Perhaps Joel should read your post. I look at Trade Simulator too occasionally but the value for prospects vs proven players is sometimes out of whack (a prospect who has proven nothing often has a much higher value than an established player). When people blindly rely on HAL2000 in a vacuum as a means to assess a potential trade it is annoying because as you said it is only one tool that can be used. It does not provide a definitive assessment of potential trades.
filihok
MCBB
“the value for prospects vs proven players is sometimes out of whack (a prospect who has proven nothing often has a much higher value than an established player). ”
There is, uh, absolutely nothing wrong with that
It’s absolutely the case that minor league players can be more valuable than “established players”.
Blackpink in the area
Nobody said rely on the site blindly in a vacuum. Nobody said that. You created that straw man nonsense because you wanted to argue.
Motor City Beach Bum
Some can be. My point is they are unproven and comparing the value of a current MLB player to what someone might do in the future is not an curate way to assess trade value in a vacuum, without considering all the other factors (the market, eam needs, prospect evaluations, player position et al.). Trade Value Simulator on its own is not the be all end all to assess value
filihok
MCBB
“My point is they are unproven and comparing the value of a current MLB player to what someone might do in the future is not an curate way to assess trade value in a vacuum, without considering all the other factors (the market, eam needs, prospect evaluations, player position et al.). Trade Value Simulator on its own is not the be all end all to assess value”
Every reasonable person agrees with you
The first step is to project player performance and value that performance
That’s most of what BTV does. Which is good. Because most people suck at that. They suck at the rest too, but anyway.
They do make some adjustments for the market, etc
Blackpink in the area
They consider a lot of factors. The ones they don’t consider you could consider yourself with common sense you simply choose not to. Cole for Grisham would never happen because the Padres are slashing payroll this offseason so right there it’s a non issue but you want to ignore that.
What else do you use to determine trade value? What other tool is better?
It’s like the people arguing that WAR shouldn’t be used. It’s not perfect but it’s the best we got. That’s what you sound like one of the anti WAR people I used to argue with a decade ago.
Simm
Using that trade simulator they say this still a good deal for the Yankees.
Yankess get Tatis
Padres get Cole, Dominguez, jones, Cortez, Pereira and Hampton.
One ace, 4 top 100 prospects and mid level pitcher.
Now find me some non padres fans that’s think that is even remotely close.
BTV is a fun toy but I never take anything in there seriously. Why you ask…look above.
Blackpink in the area
Tatis is a stud who doesn’t make a bunch of money yet. That’s why he has a lot of trade value. Cole was signed as a free agent he’s making a ton of money Tatis is not making free agent money yet.
You have to understand salaries and how they effect trade value. If you can’t understand that and refuse to learn you will never know anything.
And LIKE I SAID ALREADY they are wrong about Cole. You keep using the same freaking player shows that you are lame and looking to find fault instead of trying to use it the way it’s intended.
Motor City Beach Bum
Tatis has a 14 year $340 million conract! He’s making $11 million this year.
Blackpink in the area
Yes Tatis is making 11 million when Cole is making I believe 36 million. Cole also has an opt out which the Yankees can void by giving him an extra year at the end of the deal.
Salary matters. How Simm can’t understand that being a Padres fan and watching how their offseason has gone I have no clue. Salary matters.
Simm
Keep defending them like they are paying you to recruit for them. Tatis is signed for a crap load of money.
Like I said it’s a good toy.
Blackpink in the area
Tatis is signed through his prime years of his career. Cole is on the back end of his career like most free agents are and most Yankees are. That’s a huge difference you want to ignore for reasons only you could explain.
Simm
Say what you want but nobody would make that trade. If the padres didn’t want Cole’s money they could turn and trade him for even more prospects.
Let’s say the padres made that trade. Then took the money they saved from trading Tatis and paid down Cole’s money in a trade. Making Cole worth 25m next year. They could do the same if they added the extra year for the opt out. How many more top prospects could the padres get for Cole at around 25m. Money in this case wouldn’t matter to the padres since it would cost them zero and save them 100’s of millions over the next decade plus. What would Cole bring back in that case another 2 top 100 guys. That’s 6 top 100’s and a mid starter. Net zero cost money wise for the padres and saved 100’s of millions.
This is just one example I could find more but you would just make another comment that makes no sense.
Blackpink in the area
Who said anyone would make that trade????? The Padres are poor it’s a complete non starter but you choose to ignore it.
LIKE I SAID ALREADY they are wrong about Cole. So what?????
Find another example fella because you keep using the same one and it’s lame.
Simm
I traded Cole so he cost the padres nothing.
How about this trade…find some O’s fans that would do this trade.
O’s get Tatis and Dillon head
Padres get Holliday (rank 1), Basallo (rank 17), cowser (rank 19) and Kjerstad (rank 32).
Those ranks are in all of baseball.
All this and they save every penny of tatis deal. So your broke padres and money matters is useless.
Now find me a non padres fan that would do that.
All I hear from you is excuses.
Blackpink in the area
Jackson Holliday is simply not being traded. It’s not happening so why bring it up? They are not valuing him correctly his value is too low. Again so what?
Why not look it up and use it for a trade that might actually happen?
What do you use when trying to determine of a potential trade is fair? I remember what you thought a fair trade for Soto was before it happened. And you were way off…..
filihok
RE Simm
“Using that trade simulator they say this still a good deal for the Yankees.
Yankess get Tatis
Padres get Cole, Dominguez, jones, Cortez, Pereira and Hampton.
One ace, 4 top 100 prospects and mid level pitcher.
Now find me some non padres fans that’s think that is even remotely close.
BTV is a fun toy but I never take anything in there seriously. Why you ask…look above.”
Here’s an excellent example why you should trust BTV and not internet randos.
Randos will always post some trade and say look how dumb BTV is, but never say where it is wrong.
That’s because they don’t know what’s wrong. Because they don’t know how to value players
It’s all “feelings” and “trust me bro”.
Simm
You just can’t stop defending the simulator.
First it was Cole’s value is way off. Now it’s hollidays value is way off. How many more do you need to see.
Your next point is these teams wont trade these guys. That has nothing to do with what the simulator says is a fair deal.
Stop the madness. All you are doing now is making excuses for how off that simulator is on different trades. If you like it, cool. For me it’s just a toy to play with. I don’t dislike it, I just don’t put much stock into it when it comes to making trades.
Blackpink in the area
Again I was around the day before Soto was dealt. The simulator was waaaay more correct than you were that’s a fact.
If the player isn’t going to be traded then why even look it up? Again some values are wrong. If you look at 10 you will probably find 1 or 2 that dont make sense. And it appears that’s exactly what you did. So what? It’s better than you and your biased opinion.
Motor City Beach Bum
Yes Joel everyone who disagrees with you is biased. Stick with that. Enjoy your Saturday with your buddy HAL2000.
Blackpink in the area
I said your own personal opinion is biased. You need to understand what’s going on if you want to continue here.
Simm
I looked up two and you and both of them you had a player you said wasn’t valued right via the simulator.
I’m not going to bother to look up a third because you will continue to spout your nonsense.
As far as the Soto trade you don’t even know what I said but good attempt to change the subject vs the two trades that you can’t defend the simulator on.
As far as looking up a trade that won’t happen. It wasn’t about the possibility of the trade. It was about how the simulator was incorrect in its value. They don’t, you don’t and I don’t know who will be traded or not. So that isn’t relevant to the discussion. What was relevant is it was off by a mile.
Good luck in your defense of BTV simulator. I’m moving on from the subject. My point has been made.
filihok
Simm
You haven’t made any point
You just say, “I disagree, so it’s wrong and I’m right”
Support your claim that it’s wrong and you’re right
Simm
Guess you need to read my other post. I listed two trades that nobody in their right mind would ever make. That is the evidence that supports my claim.
Unless you are one of those people not in their right mind and would make those trades. In that case there is nothing I can do to help you. See a doctor.
Anyways as I told the other dude. I’m moving on. Good luck.
Motor City Beach Bum
Whatever you say Joel. Glad to know I need your permission to post my opinions.
Blackpink in the area
I can list 50 trades that make total sense and both teams would consider doing.
Again I was around when you were talking about the Soto trade. And the simulator was way closer than you were. That’s a fact.
Blackpink in the area
What is better to determine a players fair trade value? You tell me what do you use.
That’s what I thought.
filihok
Simm
I read them
You, like many people, are stuck at like a 5th grade level of reasoning.
Explain why you think your valuation is correct and BTV’s is wrong
This is, seriously like middle school level stuff. And it’s beyond you
You can’t just create imaginary people and say that they would agree with you. Why on earth would you think that was reasonable?
In the trade you create and
1) show where your valuation and BTV’s differ
2) why you are correct and BTV wrong
There’s a reason you had to do this in middle school. Not just to get s good grade, but to become a functioning adult in society. You’re failing at that.
Rally Goose
BTV does not factor in things like “name/prestige value” whereas most fans on MLBTR do. That probably has something to do with them valuing Cole/Tatis less than y’all do.
And they still have Tatis at $133m.
Blackpink in the area
Tatis is incredibly valuable because he’s signed through his prime years and not the decline years.
Coles values last time I checked simply wasn’t correct. This is not an exact science. The site isn’t perfect. But it’s better than nothing. It’s better than listening to some biased fan telling everyone how greet their players are.
Simm
Clearly you are the one not able to follow along.
I listed two trades that BTV said was an equal trade…not me.
I then said nobody would ever make those trades unless you were a padres fan. If nobody in their right mind would ever make those trades then something is off with the simulator. Because it said they were fair and not a single person would agree.
Even your boy blackpink said players in those deals values were incorrect. Not my values…BTV values. He didn’t even try to defend other than say those team aren’t trading those players. Which was irrelevant because that has nothing to do with the players values in that sim.
Anyways you and Mr.black or whatever he is calling himself today. Have fun defending BTV…this will be my last reply. So make sure you reply with an insult or something witty.
Blackpink in the area
All of their values are not correct and nobody has said otherwise. But it’s better than nothing. Just like WAR it isn’t perfect but there isn’t a better tool to use. No sense in finding fault in it and limiting yourself.
filihok
Bpita
How do you know it wasn’t correct?
He’s one of the better players in baseball
On a free agent contact at around market value.
You’d expect him to have some value, but not a ton. And that’s what we see
filihok
Simm
Unfortunately, I have been following along
”
I then said nobody would ever make those trades unless you were a padres fan. If nobody in their right mind would ever make those trades then something is off with the simulator”
Right. You completely made something up as evidence that you’re correct. You should have learned in elementary school that that doesn’t count
It’s sad that as an adult, presumably, you still think that counts for something.
Loser strategy to refuse to support your point if view.
Blackpink in the area
Cole has been the best pitcher in baseball the last couple years. He’s outperformed his contract so far.
What is his value now? I don’t know I haven’t looked it up recently. I think it was 10 million last time I checked and that was too low.
It doesn’t make the whole site invalid. Fangraphs has changed their formula and updated things since they started doing what they do. Because that’s how this stuff works it evolves. And it’s the best of what we have.
filihok
Bpits
“recently. I think it was 10 million last time I checked and that was too low.”
How do you know that’s too low?
What should it be? How do you know?
Blackpink in the area
Cole signed a market rate deal as a free agent. Since then he’s performed better than expected he’s been amazing and healthy both. He clearly has positive trade value and it’s more than just a few million. Off the top of my head I think his surplus value is maybe 50 million.
filihok
Bpita
” think his surplus value is maybe 50 million.”
Based on what?
You’re just making up a number
Blackpink in the area
I am making up a number. I am actually incredibly good at math and did some quick number crunching but that doesn’t make it true or real. It’s my educated opinion. And that’s basically what the site is and how they do it. Again “off the top of my head”. If I wanted to spend 30 minutes analyzing it I could. Waiting for a freaking fantasy draft to start lol.
filihok
Boita
You’re all over the place
Which leads me to believe you might be good at arithmetic, but not math
What numbers did you crunch? How did you get to $50 million
Why is it so hard to get anyone on this site to support their opinions? Everyone can’t be at am elementary school level, can they?
Blackpink in the area
I took what he makes annually added what I think he would make if he were a free agent now and there you go.
Again OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. I don’t run the trade simulator site. I don’t care to dig any deeper or more importantly here explain to you how I came up with my opinion. That’s time I don’t want to spend.
filihok
Bpita
“I took what he makes annually added what I think he would make if he were a free agent now and there you go..”
That’s half an answer, but it qualifies as a thesis on this site
Infinitely better than what SIMM was capable of coming up with. So, there’s that
Thank you
Tigers3232
Unless one is using a fantasy trade calculator what’s the purpose?? Nobody is listening to the opinion of anyone on here when negotiating trades. I just don’t understand why anyone would be typing hypothetical trades into a trade calculator for no reason. Again if it’s Fantasy I get it, but otherwise, why??
JoeBrady
You actually made some valid points above (more accurate for MLB players with a track record, doesn’t account for the market).
==================
That’s also why you often get a better return for prospects.
Motor City Beach Bum
Are you still here babbling Joel. I stopped listening to you and filihok slam everyone elses opinion as stupid like 4 hours ago. Go eat a Snickers and stop being hangry.
Ask HAL2000 who is going to win the Superbowl tomorrow. Ask HAL how much Pat Mahomes is worth…I think my Tigers drafted him in baseball if I remember correctly. Probably like 4 Gerrit Coles and 3 Juan Sotos? Are you guys watching the game with HAL2000?
filihok
MCBB
MUTED
filihok
Tigers
That you can’t even fathom that someone would want to speak about baseball in an informed way rather than an ignorant way speaks volumes about you
Rally Goose
Gerrit Cole is also signed until he’s 38 (39 when the Yankees exercise that option) and BTV does tend to penalize guys who are owed a lot of money into their late 30s. Some might say overpenalize.
Blackpink in the area
Yes age matters the big difference between Cole and Tatis is Tatis isn’t signed through his decline years just his prime years.
Ketch
Duran for King? Who says no?
Simm
Padres definitely say no. Padres as you can read in this article still want pitching.
GASoxFan
However Simm, BOS also needs pitching.
If a young OF gets moved at this point, it’s only going to be pitching based, or, a massive overpay to exclude the pitching.
websoulsurfer
Why would there even be a decent return for Duran. He is going into his age 27 season, he was a terrible hitter in 2021-2022, he plays terrible defense and his 381 BABip and 6% BB rate point to a regression of around 40 points in BA, OBP, and OPS.
That kind of player is not worth much in trade.
A couple guys from the bottom half of this list not including the guys that are slated to be on the Padres MLB team in 2024 would be enough. mlb.com/prospects/2023/padres/
JoeBrady
You’re allowing your hatred of the RS to cloud your thinking. I’ve never been a Duran fan, but he did well last year, and has 5 years of control left.
websoulsurfer
I don’t dislike the Red sox at all. Rather see them win than the Yankees.
I do dislike trading good prospects for a player that has not been very good in his career.
Let’s break it down.
Duran is 27, 28 before the end of the 2024 season, so there is not likely to be improvement in any area of his game.
He was a terrible hitter in 2021-2022.
He is a terrible defensive CF. -19 DRS and -9 OAA
His .381 BABip and 6% BB rate point to a significant regression in his hitting. He put the ball in play 66.3% of plate appearances, so that points to a 40-50 point drop in BA and a 100-110 point drop in OPS.
Combine that drop in batting numbers with bad defense and you have about a 1.0-1.3 WAR.
5 years of control on a 27-year-old guy that is likely to be a 1.0-1.3 WAR player his entire career with 2.0 WAR as his upside does not make him very valuable in trade.
JoeBrady
1-Duran is going to be 28 in September, so he is only 27.
2-Improvement as you age is equally based on physical development as well as experience. So the experience component will continue.
3-As I mentioned elsewhere, his OOA last year was -0-.
4-According the FG, for CF with 300 PAs Duran ranked #15.
FWIW, I am not pushing Duran on you. I’d be perfectly fine keeping him.
websoulsurfer
Then why are the Red Sox actively shopping him? Because even they know that his 2023 season was a mirage. He will hit .240-.250 with a 700-720 OPS in 2024 and with his far below average defense he will put up a 1.0.- to 1.3 WAR.
JoeBrady
They are pushing Duran because Yoshi, Duran, and Anthony are all lefties. Rafaela will be up nest year, if not sooner. One has to go.
vpsd
And this is a major issue with the simulator. It will treat 5 years of 1 war the same as 1 year of 5 war. It’s much more valuable to stack that war in a single roster position, in a single year, if you’re trying to win a World Series.
vpsd
Honest question. Do you prefer Rafaela or Duran in a vacuum. BTV has Duran twice as valuable in sv.
Blackpink in the area
Why would either team do that?
VLTC
Both?
Padres say no because it creates a hole to fill another.
Red Sox say no because they’d be trading 5 years of control for just 2.
beyou02215
Padres.
JoeBrady
I like King, but it is two years of King v 5 years of Duran. I would decline if I were the RS, but also think it is close enough to warrant further discussion.
websoulsurfer
Padres.
rmullig2
Padres would probably give up either Vasquez or Brito but not King. He’s too important for this year.
VLTC
Hard to see how these teams match up in terms of the return to the Red Sox. They might need to get a 3rd team involved.
Sox would want MLB-ready pitching, which the Padres don’t have an excess of. Maybe the Sox could sell it to their fan base if they built a package around a not-too-far-off pitcher like Iriatre or Thorpe, but I doubt the Padres want to include either of those guys.
Blackpink in the area
I understand what the Padres are doing. They need players but they have budget issues and are waiting for prices to come down.
What the heck are the Red Sox doing? Why would they want to trade Durran?
Ketch
Loaded with OF options. Plus he has no real defensive position. But he has enough offensive potential to get something reasonable.
Blackpink in the area
What outfield options? Anyone who thinks ONeill belongs in center is wrong. Who is playing center Raffaela?
roiste
Yes. Abreu also likely isn’t much worse in center than Duran
Simm
Sox have a bunch of young outfielders and they may look at dealing him as a way to get some young talent in another area of need.
Plus looking at Duran defense they may want to move him for a better defender. Also Duran hasn’t really hit much until last year which was carried by a huge babip. They may see an opportunity to sell high on Duran.
Blackpink in the area
Padres need a center fielder. You wouldn’t want him playing center for your team right?
Simm
Padres need a center fielder and a left fielder. There is a chance his defense could improve away from Fenway which is a harder spot to play center in my eyes.
His defense either way definitely gives some pause to his value.
Blackpink in the area
I imagine he would play left for the Padres. I can’t think what the Red Sox would want the Padres would give up.
JoeBrady
His defense either way definitely gives some pause to his value.
==========================
I’m not sure what the numbers say, but I thought he was twice as good in 2023 as he was in 2022. Of course, he was legit bad in 2022, but it was more a roll-the-eyes bad in 2023.
Honestly, I don’t see that much difference between him and Ellsbury relative to tools.
acell10
Ellsbury had a worse arm but was much better at fielding the position
websoulsurfer
Padres have a better defensive option in CF now.
JoeBrady
It makes me wonder why Preller is even interested.
websoulsurfer
Not so sure Preller is. If he is really cheap, he could be a depth option for the Padres.
JoeBrady
If Preller trades for him, he will be a starter, not a depth piece.
straightuphonestguy
Duran seems like an odd buy-high move. The Lauer and Ryu targets I like, They should bring back Choi, too. Padres need all the lefties they can get and a strong defensive CF.
thecrocusesareinbloom
It would be foolish, I think, for the Sox to trade Duran. As frustrating as it is that they aren’t willing to spend, it makes even less sense to blow up your young core for near-term bandaids in order to appear semi-competitive. But then, this has been Boston’s problem for half a decade now: an unwillingness to commit to winning OR to commit to a full rebuild. Can’t understand it for the life of me.
Blackpink in the area
Exactly
wallabeechamp
As long as AJ doesn’t do another deal where the Dodgers, or another team, fleece him for yet another River Ryan type. Tired of AJ trading away USDA Prime for gristle
websoulsurfer
Gristle like Snell, Darvish, Musgrove, Hader, Cronenworth, and Soto?
Jake Biggar
Who would the Padres send back to the Sox? Red Sox would assuredly want starting pitching and the Padres don’t really have that in excess. Don’t really match up in my mind unless they add a 3rd team.
Simm
They don’t really lineup of the Sox are in win now mode. Which it doesn’t seem like they are. Padres have bunch of young quality prospects, they are just a year or two away. So it’s really
More of a matter of when do the Sox plan to compete again. It’s doesn’t look like this year.
soxin8
Breslow might ask for Snelling or Lesko. He traded Verdugo for 3 minor league pitchers.
Simm
I don’t think he would get either in a deal for Duran.
Brew’88
Snelling or Lesko? Not a chance. Maybe Mazur
websoulsurfer
Verdugo had a history of above MLB average play. Duran does not. Neither Lesko nor Snelling would need to be involved in any trade for Duran.
Maybe something like Lizarraga and JD Gonzales.
Trollfree
websoulsurfer – Your data is in error.
0 errors suggests Duran is a lot better than Verdugo. historically speaking.
Also, as much as Duran takes crap for routes I’ve never seen an outfielder that is worse than Verdugo at catching a ball within arms reach over his head. His frequency of misplays on those type of easy fly outs prevents me from ever considering him an average fielder let along a GG candidate. That was a total joke and an indictment on modern metrics.
sacrifice
Can those communist left wing owners in Boston just sell the team, please?
Blackpink in the area
The Red Sox have had one of the highest payrolls in baseball for years. A solid 2 decades. Good gosh man get a clue.
filihok
sac
Muted
Deleted Userr
@filihok He wasn’t even talking to you.
Blackpink in the area
Does that really matter? It was a stupid comment. And frankly ridiculous considering how much money the Red Sox have spent on salary the last 20 years. It would have made more sense to call the Pirates owner this because that actually makes some sense even if it’s still stupid to say.
Deleted Userr
Still pointless to mute someone over it. And even more pointless to be like “Hahaha I’m muting you! Na na na boo boo stick your head in doo doo!”
Blackpink in the area
I considered muting him over it. It’s a really stupid comment. And again way off base it’s not based in reality.
Deleted Userr
If you wanna mute him over that just do it. Don’t be like “hahahaha I’m muting you and you should feel bad.” Especially when his comment wasn’t directed at you.
Blackpink in the area
I agree it was kind of lame to announce it. But the comment itself was flat out stupid.
TJ5960
Duran turns 28 this year and ZiPS forecasts a 97 wRC+ this year while PECOTA has him at a DRC+ of 93. He’s not young, his defense is mediocre-to-poor, and he’s past the age where improvement with experience should be assumed. I think other teams will value him with those factors in mind.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
I would hate to lose Duran, but now is the time to trade him if we choose. He’ll either be a star or end up like Dalbach. Hard to know.
I’m fine keeping or trading. If we trade, however, we need a good return, whether it’s prospects or MLB ready talent to fill in the holes.
mostlytoasty
I hope they give Jakob Marsee a bit of run in Spring Training. Would be very unlikely he makes a successful jump to the majors as soon as Opening Day, but the kid has a great approach at the place and was the AZFL MVP.
Pitching there is always pretty suspect, but he’ll be knocking on the door soon. There’s been an uptick in guys jumping straight from AA to the majors the last few years, so it’s not unreasonable to think he could do the same sooner than later if he starts out the year in AA and is excelling. I’m not terribly confident the Padres are bringing in any OFers that are worth blocking exciting prospects.
Butter Biscuits
I think they can deal for him without giving up too much, maybe top 6-10 players
kripes-brewers
Brewers would seem to line up well here, as they’re loaded with young outfielders. Garrett Mitchell, Joey Wiemer, Blake Perkins are all fighting for a spot.
RickEO
Duran aint going anywhere. Allstar this year
butch779988
Duran is Grady Sizemore prime this year.
I.M. Insane
Why, other than Cora, would the Red Sox be so anxious to trade Duran? He’s already proven himself and provides a solid centerfielder in their lineup. Trade Ceddane or Jansen of you want to star making deals.
roiste
As a Red Sox fan, he has not proven himself. His success this year relied on a high BABIP, and his plate discipline is poor and seems like it could be exploited by the league. I am not confident that he continues his success, and if another team is willing to give up controllable pitching to bet on him, I think Breslow should jump on it.
I have more faith in Rafaela (due to defense) and Abreu (due to power and approach) succeeding, and would rather the team give CF reps to them to see if they can stick
Trollfree
roiste – BABIP is a bogus estimate. Faulty assumptions.
Why not use real stats not contrived ones? Why not let what a player does represent them rather than some circus act trying to simulate what really happened instead of what actually happened?
Duran had a great 2023. He did what we all wanted him to do. He improved. That’s what normal people hope for. To suggest he was lucky is horse crap. He improved. His BABIP next year has NOT occurred yet so who is to say it won’t be the same? Who is to say it will go way down and he’ll have an even better year because he IMPROVES again? No way to know these answers about the future.
Your view of their hitting styles is fair as is your opinion. I like to monitor progress through the minors and patterns for growth. From that I conclude Anthony has the highest upside with limited numbers so far, Rafaela has skills similar to Duran in that he has speed and will hit for a decent average but he may strike out more and homer more. Abreu is the guy I worry most about because his average last year came from 3 games. The rest of the games he wasn’t all that good so he’s liable to have much bigger swings in success.
For me, I say keep Anthony, Rafaela, Duran and Abreu. Trade Yoshida, Story, Devers, Giolito and O’Neill as over priced players. Obviously, none of the contracts can be moved easily and PAY DOWNS should never happen so Boston simply needs to fix what’s broken. We are broken at 3B so move Devers to DH. We are broken at SP1 and SP2 so contract all-star quality pitchers. To fund some of the acquisitions we need to move Yoshida first clearly room at DH. Then if any of the other bad contracts can be moved, great but if not this team could get good quickly with three simple additions. There is more than enough money to make that happen and if the owners only make $300MM in 2024 rather than $330MM so be it for putting us through the last four years.
If you believe Duran is least likely to succeed going forward, we still have three others and more coming. My issue with moving Duran is that Boston needs a speed component to their offense since we no longer have many big boppers. Rafaela and Duran are our speed guys for now so they need to be in the line-up opening day. A good fielding big right handed bat at 3B would also be a huge add to make up for losing JD, Bogey and others.
Think about all the low payroll numbers for the guys breaking into the majors:
Duran – Arb in 2025 and FA 2029
Rafaela – Arb in 2027 and FA in 2031
Abreu – Arb in 2027 and FA in 2031
Anthony – Arb in 2028 and FA in 2032 (if brought up in 2024)
Bello – Arb in 2026 and FA 2030
Crawford – Arb in 2025 and FA 2029
Houck – Arb in 2025 and FA 2028
Casas – Arb in 2026 and FA 2030
Grissom – Arb in 2027 and FA in 2031
FYI prior to arb is pre-arb which costs less than $1MM.
NINE players that will become the core complimentary players to the stars which as of today only includes Devers.
Remove the redundancies and fill the holes with all-stars and this team will be good for years. Leave the team without purchased stars and this team will flounder for years.
B dog 351
Troll . Great post. Unfortunately I think Breslow suffers from smartest guy in the room syndrome. He shows all the symptoms . Hence O ‘Neil, Giolito , Reclamation projects . Or pay downs to save this penny pinching ownership a few million.
Trollfree
B dog – If only pay downs actually saved money!!! Most financially irresponsible thing a GM can do. Pay another team to gain the benefits of one of your players.
Think about how great it is to have young controllable guys. We have 9 of them that don’t get free agency until the end of the decade. They cost under $1MM until arbitration. The Grissom deal cost $17MM or 17 seasons or more of less than $1MM players. Thus, the 9 players now will on average as a group cost $3MM for their control years not less than $1MM and all this so ATL can pitch Sale in 2024!!!
It’s the definition of insanity!!! Hard to imagine a guy so smart that does something that incredibly stupid.
fba0017
Nigh? Lol. Just simple baseball fans here no need for $10 words.
Buzzz Killington
Some German fancy un Merica word
PKCasimir
Good Grief! Look at the source – Jon Heyman. That should be enough to say nothing here, let’s move on.
Javia135
What can a team expect from Duran? Looking at his lifetime numbers, his team can expect both a below-average offense of OPS+ 96 and below-average defense. Who wouldn’t want to trade a top-100 prospect or 2 for THAT, right?
Brew’88
The Pads shouldn’t be interested in him at all. But apparently, they are?
vpsd
BTV does a real poor job with players like Duran. Zips has him around 1.5 fwar the next 3 years, after which it’s fair to assume he’d be declining with his speed based profile.
He’d be a decent get for the padres to plug into the lineup, but certainly not worth a prospect like snelling or lesko.
JoeBrady
That’s based on 400 ABs per season. At 600 ABs, it’s more like 2.3. Past that, I agree. He’d be a good get, but not worth Lesko. But at least worth Snelling.
websoulsurfer
Snelling is better than Lesko. closer to the majors too.
Duran is going into his age 27 season, was terrible at the plate in 2021-2022, is bad on defense, and had a .381 BABip with a 6 BB% in 2023 so is likely to regress into the .250-.260 BA range and .720-.740 OPS range. That is a significant drop in performance at the plate and combined with bad defense does not make him a very valuable trade chip.
He might be worth Lizarraga and a lottery ticket in a trade with the Padres.
JoeBrady
Lesko has a lot more talent. His only issue is injuries. In another year, he could be top-25.
websoulsurfer
Snelling is already #36. In another year he could be top 10 or Padres #3 starter.
You can count on the fingers of one hand the number of starting pitchers with the changeup as their #1 pitch that had a MLB career as anything other than a back of the rotation starter.
Closer? LOTS of them that excelled with a great change. Starter? Not so many.
Buzzz Killington
Probably asking way too much. Michael A. Taylor is honestly a great option who could probably be had for cheap.
Old York
Well, at the moment, based on Fangraphs projected WAR, the Padres are an 81-81 team so they need to decide if they just want to play out the season or if they’re interested in going for the playoffs. If they want to follow Dipoto’s 54% model, they need 6 more wins.
VegasSDfan
Duran yes, Pham no..
Don’t give up anything to get Duran though
Bruin1012
Then you’ll have to settle for Pham because you aren’t getting Duran for nothing.
websoulsurfer
Duran is going into his age 27 season, was terrible at the plate in 2021-2022, is bad on defense, and had a .381 BABip with a 6 BB% in 2023 so is likely to regress significantly. He is not worth much. A couple guys in the bottom half of the Padres top 30 prospects would be more than enough.
Bruin1012
No that wouldn’t be enough. He’s far more valuable than that to Boston. I don’t think these two teams match up well anyway the Pads have nothing Boston wants at least not what they are willing to give up. Hard pass for the Red Sox.
Bruin1012
Web I don’t think you have watched him much. Duran has his warts especially defensively he’s a poor route runner with a below average arm but he’s a special base runner. He’s truly a difference maker on the bases. It’s not just his speed it’s his ultra aggressiveness.
Imo Boston messed up with this guy. They tried to change his swing from a line drive approach swing to tap into more power but in his case this is a mistake. He’s far better off going back to the line drive/ ground ball approach he had before they tried changing his swing in AA. You would have to watch the guy on a daily basis to see how disruptive he is on the bases. He’s also intimidating on the base paths. He’s like early Kirk Gibson a freight train running at you if your a defender. If he goes back to his line drive/ ground ball approach he’s going to hit for very high Babip due to speed and he will lead the league in stretching singles to doubles. It’s really hard to quantify how disruptive he is when making contact and running the bases.
Brew’88
Agreed but why is AJ interested then? (according to Lin and Heyman)
websoulsurfer
He may be worth more than that to the Red sox. in which case they should keep him. That they are actively shopping him says volumes.
JoeBrady
Agreed but why is AJ interested then?
=================================
Because AJ isn’t cherry-picking stats looking to not like a player?
websoulsurfer
He is below MLB average at taking the extra base and his speed indicated he should have stolen 40 bases last season but he is timid on the basepaths.
He hit only 8 Hr and his pull % and launch angle didn’t change significantly and his oppo % increased so thinking they didn’t ask for much in terms of power. More like a kid thinking he needed to hit for power to stick in majors because the rest of his game was so bad.
I watched him quite a bit as a Dirtbag and his approach hasn’t changed a bit since then. His strength has, but not his plate approach.
websoulsurfer
Those are not cherry-picked stats. They are what FO look at. YOU yourself have many times talked about how Moniak will regress, but a player with the same hitting issues and BAD defense is valuable just because he is on the Red Sox?
Trollfree
Bruin1012 – We don’t agree often but they pulled a Benny on Duran and we all know how badly they hurt Benny’s future by doing the same thing. Duran needs to hit like Yoshida but runs twice as fast. Top of the order if he can put the ball in play and add more plate command.
Bruin1012
Web it’s obvious you didn’t watch Duran last year. He wasn’t below average at taking another base. He was constantly taking the extra base putting himself in position you should probably go back and watch some of his games he was electric running the base paths. He doesn’t get the best jump stealing bases but still in a little over half a year and he stole 24 bases. He’s just a really good base runner. Anyone that actually watches him play knows this.
In actuality his plate approach has changed a lot. In the low minors he had a line drive/ground ball use the hole field approach. He hit very well in the low minors no power but high averages. When he arrived at AA he struggled a bit but now the Red Sox brass was trying to change his swing get more loft. They were hoping by changing the launch angle he would tap into more power unfortunately this also tapped into a much higher k%.
Duran’s game is hitting the ball hard on a line or on the ground taking the extra base and being an excellent base runner. He likely to have a high babip because he doesn’t hit a lot of balls in the air and he’s very fast. He’s going to run into few homers because he he’s strong and hits the ball hard he just doesn’t barrel it often.
If your expectation for Duran is a .275 to .280 hitter who’s an excellent aggressive base runner who runs into 10-15 homers hits a ton of doubles puts a lot pressure on the defense that us who he is. He’s also controlled for 5 more years he has quite a bit of value. He’s coming off a foot injury and since so much of his value is based on speed and aggressive base running I’d wait until we see how he looks in spring training before trying to acquire him.
The reality is the two teams don’t match up real well anyway. I’m not trading Duran for the garbage that you suggest and I doubt San Diego is trading the pitching that Breslow would covet to move Duran. Duran will stay with Boston this year unless someone gets realistic on what it would take to get Duran. Hint it’s a hell of lot more then a couple ob bottom 30 guys out if your system. That’s a joke.
Bruin1012
I still do have some hope for him defensively he was way better last year than the year before defensively. Hopefully he continues to improve defensively.
JoeBrady
YOU yourself have many times talked about how Moniak will regress,
===========================
Moniak’s K/W last year was 12.6/1.
Duran’s was 3.75.
No even remotely close.
I wouldn’t even insult by suggesting a wager on who will have a higher OPS. But like I said, I am not pushing Duran on you. I’m fine with him being our CF.
JoeBrady
Top of the order if he can put the ball in play and add more plate command.
===========================
I wouldn’t be jumping up and down with joy, but I also wouldn’t be offended by Duran leading off.
JoeBrady
As Websoul likes to point out, his OAA was -0- compared to his -2 in 2022.
Bruin1012
Joe,I have hope for Duran defensively but at this point the best defensive outfield Boston can put has Duran in left with Rafaela in center and Abreu in right. Rafaela is gold glove caliber in center and Abreu is an excellent defender with a great arm. Teams will learn quickly not to run either Rafaela or Abreu. The only issue will Rafaela and Abreu hit enough we just don’t know yet but since it’s a season we’re competing is probably out of the question let those guys play and see what you have see if they can make the adjustment to big league pitching.
Yoshida needs to be the DH since Devers is staying at third probably as long as Cora is there.
JoeBrady
IMHO, keep Rafaela in the minors one more year. No need to rush him.
Bruin1012
There’s an argument for that but if he hits in spring training let him open with the team. If he wins the center field job in Spring let the kid play.
websoulsurfer
Bruin, the stats are clear and I watched more Red Sox games than I care to admit.
Duran sucks on defense. That is not up for debate.
Duran was below league average at taking the extra base. That is not up for debate.
With his speed of 29.5 ft/sec he should have stolen more bases. That is not up for debate.
With a .371 BABip and just 6% BB rate he will regress. How much is up for debate, but at the percentage of PA he puts the ball in play the range of that drop will be 40-50 points of BA and 100-110 points of OPS. Ask Joe Brady.
websoulsurfer
And he will be. The Padres have said they are not interested. They were willing to part with a pair of low-level prospects. The Red Sox asked for Lesko straight up and were told are you F’ing kidding. Enjoy Duran in 2024.
Bruin1012
The Red Sox won’t take that they will laugh at the Padres. He’s a dynamic that’s not up for debate. He puts a lot of pressure on the defense every time he makes contact. He does stretch singles to doubles and that’s not up for debate. I watched nearly every game he played and the one constant was how aggressive he was after making contact and it’s not up for debate. What’s also not up for debate the Padres don’t or aren’t willing to part with the prospect necessary to acquire Duran. I’m not sure where you get your facts but he was an outstanding base runner last year who was very aggressive and it’s not up for debate.
Bruin1012
Web not sure where you get your base running stats but statcast basically supports my eye test. He was one of the most aggressive base runners being 11% above average his base running value was only surpassed by a few guys and those guys had 40% or more plate appearances than him. He likely with 550 plate appearances would have been one of nit the most valuable base runner in all of baseball according to statcast.
Bruin1012
“ one of if not the most valuable”
JoeBrady
I love the approach though. I’d like Lesko, but won’t up anything for hi,.
wtylerw
Interesting how the padres FO has clearly stated they’re interested in giving a young guy or 2 a shot at a starting job as a position player, yet most fans and articles trash our depth claiming we need to go sign multiple aging free agents.
the 13 position players include an all-star filled 1-6; then youve got azocar, higgy, eguy, batten, leaving 3 spots. all 3 of marsee, merill, and pauley played some OF last year. If 2 make the team we have a spot for 1 (and only 1) free agent.
Its even more intense on the pitching side, a pile of arms competing for the 4-6 rotation spots, a stacked bullpen, and a long list of promising starting pitching prospects.
good teams have a mixture of veteran leadership and young players, hopefully the padres follow through.
OldSaltUSN
@wtylerw
“Its even more intense on the pitching side, a pile of arms competing for the 4-6 rotation spots, a stacked bullpen, and a long list of promising starting pitching prospects.”
Naw, your nuts. We have a bunch of AJ Preller trash in that gaggle of arms you mentioned. They’ll all flame out just like Preller’s failures last year, like …ah.. Wacha, Lugo, Martinez, even Hader (who was a dumpster file when he arrived in 2022), none of those worked out … .oh …
… wait a sec ….
/sarc
VermonsterSD
I think the issue is too many at one time. Sure, 1-2 young kids mixed with the veterans is a smart way to go, but throwing 4 or so there won’t get the job done. Especially when 3 out of 4 likely won’t pan out statistically, yet when you trade for or sign a veteran, you know what you’re getting.
Brew’88
though I think one of Marsee or Pauley could pan out this year and would sure save the team prospects (and $) that would be lost in a trade for an average-at-best OF in Duran. LH SP should be their top concern, and I would say if they add to position players, a L bat DH or LF with some real pop would be priority – right now the lineup’s overall SLG% way too low
websoulsurfer
I think Pauley very well could get a shot at coming in off the bench. LHB signed out of college and then has hit the cover off the ball in 2 years in full season ball.
Rather not see him thrust into a starting position. Trade for Arozarena or even Ramirez. Or sign Duvall if he is cheap enough.
OldSaltUSN
@VermonsterSD
Yep, every prospect is a suspect, until maybe after their second, or third year of production. (Take Jake Cronenworth as one example, and that situation is not entirely played out yet. I think that he’ll regress back up to a higher mean.)
The problem for the Pads and AJP, are over all numbers. $$$ They NEED a couple of younger prospects to break through as full time starters. They should see that with Campusano. Some of the relievers have landed. They need to balance both payroll and the over all age of the roster by having a half DOZEN prospects make it to the bigs, and to do so before they’re 5th year of arbitration, when they pedal their wares to the highest bidder (or the Padres are compelled to raise the team salary again).
Certainly that’s a bit of static analysis, i.e. even as these guys are coming up, the long term contracts will be playing out. (We still have Hosmer on the payroll for two more years!). And, this isn’t ragging on AJP for making those long term contracts (there’s good arguments on either side for doing so), but just stating the facts.
Yes, Preller may trade, almost certainly will trade from the farm. However, the team NEEDS to take the chance on those prospects, to see a few make it, to balance team salary and age. Trading all but a couple of high floor, high ceiling guys will inevitably result in some key prospect flame outs and some “River Ryans”. AJP needs to keep most of the current prospect class, IMHO, to provide for an affordable, competitive future.
websoulsurfer
Prospect hugging rarely leads to rings.
The facts are that 17% of Top 100 prospects become 2 WAR or MLB average players in their careers. 3% put up a single 4.0 WAR season in their careers.
If you have a chance to trade prospects for proven MLB players with 2-4 years of team control, you do it every time.
Only players I can see being off the table are Salas, De Vries, and Snelling.
Merrill is blocked, even more so if Kim is extended. He is valuable trade bait.
Most of the rest are question marks that are at least a year away from laying in Petco.
When you look at the multiple articles that have talked about what is a realistic trade return for Cease. mlb.com/news/dylan-cease-trade-proposals , you can see that Padres could easily get Luzardo without touching their top 4 prospects. Same could be said for Arozarena. And Ramirez would be much less. Those are players worth trading for.
JoeBrady
The article you cited said this about the Padres:
“Padres: It’s hard to know what to make of them, but they still have a strong farm system and a shaky rotation. Mostly, you can’t count out A.J. Preller when it comes to aggressive moves.”
Did I miss something that indicated that could acquire Luzardo with one of their top-4 prospects (which they won’t)?
Bruin1012
I guess we know thing for sure Padre fans over value their prospects as much as any other fan base. The Padres aren’t getting Cease without parting with at least one of their top prospects and Luzardo will cost at least as much as Cease so I’m guessing it would take Merrill and either one of Snelling or Lesko to pry Luzardo. The Marlins need a shortstop perhaps a package led by Merrill could get Luzardo.
websoulsurfer
Pathetic. Truly pathetic.
ALL of those trade proposals included prospects that would not be in the Padres top 4.
Bruin1012
The point I was making those were bad trade proposals. The Orioles are not trading Basallo and yes Basallo would easily be in your top 4 prospects. Roman Anthony would be somewhere in your top 4 as well probably after Jackson Merrill.
The White Sox asked for Holiday and when the Orioles said no way kick rocks they countered with a package around Basallo. The Orioles said no. Maybe Merrill is on par with Basallo but you’re talking about an 18 year old who demolished every level he went to he’s a beast his offensive profile is ridiculous. He is not as known as Salas and he certainly isn’t the defensive catcher Salas is but his offensive profile is off the charts. He would probably be your no.2 prospect behind Salas but no worse then 3. Anthony would probably be your no. 3 behind Salas and Kelley. Watch some highlights of that beast Basallo.
The point is the White Sox wanted a lot more for Cease than what that article listed. They would ask for two your top 4 not named Salas I’m almost sure of it.
JoeBrady
Padre fans over value their prospects
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Some fans more than others. Luzardo will cost a whole lot. Not less than two top-50 prospects.
Javia135
Every team’s fans overvalue their prospects, just like every team’s fans overvalue their trade assets. I don’t see either Luzardo or Cease getting traded until either their price drops or a team gets desperate at the trade deadline.
websoulsurfer
I only see a couple possibilities for FA signings in the OF. Duvall as a LF is most likely of those.
Padres FO is showing confidence in Azocar. They believe that if healthy, he will be able to replace Grisham’s overall production on offense and defense. Padres might still need a player to platoon with Azocar in CF, but he hits well enough vs RHP that I am not sure how much they feel they even need someone to platoon with him. We will see in camp.
Ha-Seong Kim
Brito for moniak who says no?
websoulsurfer
The Padres. Moniak had a .397 BABip, 4% BB%, a 35% SO% and a .548 OPS/48 OPS+ vs LHP.
sdpadsfan11
Moniak and Duran are fool’s gold. Padres need to look elsewhere for outfield help.
Ha-Seong Kim
Not so sure. Brito looks to be a bullpen piece. Moniak is a LHH OF, team’s biggest need. Showed flashes vs RHP last year. SD guy like musgrove.
baseballguru
SD has nothing the Redsox need. We need controllable Starting Pitchers…like in Miami or Seattle. No way we send Duran to SD. Bad match and why? Duran is awesome and we need a leadoff. Keep him unless is for a solid young arm. Furthermore REDSOX NATION (who built this team over the last 124 years and many generations across New England & the world) IS BOYCOTTING EVERYTHING REDSOX until they get competitive and real. WE will not be spending time or money on a zero effort by ownership. No Games at Fenway, No games on NESN, No games though streaming services like MLB Ticket, No Merchandise, No Fenway South…NOTHING! Your 1st clue was TRUCK DAY with 50 to 75 people related to those moving things for the team. No self respecting REDSOX NATION member would condone and enable the cheap actions of ownership by spending time or money in 2024. WE WILL BE CHECKING BOX SCORES for free & WAITING for news that John Henry has once again become worthy of OUR support by supporting OUR Team. Without US John, FSG revenues will dry up in short order, views down, spending down, revenue from Fenway shrivel, Will Golf, Soccer & Hockey be enough for FSG? You’re about to find out! FOUR!
baseballguru
Ok so Duran for Snelling maybe but that’s it…Lesko is not even close for Duran so scrap that. He’s heading into his prime and will be a top leadoff OF in MLB on both sides of the ball and on the bases & Defense. Great mix of BA, Power & Speed.
kingbum
If we can get AAA starting pitching that has MLB ready potential I say make the swap. I will miss Duran but Abreu and Rafaela are ready and you got O’Neil and Yoshida on the roster.
MLBTR needs to hire editors
For god’s sake, hire an editor or can Steve Adams. This sentence is a travesty of grammar and punctuation: “Heyman, too, lists Ryu as a potential target for the Padres.” First off, you are using the WRONG WORD in that place: it should be also. Any middle schooler would know this. If you insist on using too, it HAS to be at the end of a sentence or clause, without a comma. How much of a nimrod are you to write a sentence this grammatically incorrect?