Some links to check out as Cody Ross attempts to follow up yesterday's two-home run performance and the Phillies look to even the score…
- Speaking of Ross, Andrew Baggarly of The Mercury News reports that Giants GM Brian Sabean left a "clear impression" before tonight's game that the outfielder will be tendered a contract this offseason.
- Nick Cafardo of The Boston Globe tweets that Red Sox bench coach DeMarlo Hale is getting a second interview for the Blue Jays managerial position.
- SI.com's Jon Heyman tweets that the Mets have been "asking around" about Rangers GM Jon Daniels, and things could get interesting. Daniels can opt out of his contract after the season since the team was sold.
- Steve Popper of The Bergen Record says that the Mets might not be making the popular choices right now, especially with Francisco Rodriguez, Oliver Perez, Carlos Beltran, and Luis Castillo, but they're the right moves.
- Popper also reports that the Tigers denied the Mets permission to talk to assistant GM Al Avila about their GM vacancy.
- ESPN's Buster Olney tweets that Eric Young will be named the D'Backs first base coach later this week. In a second tweet, he says Eric Wedge's former pitching coach Carl Willis will likely play a big role on his new staff in Seattle.
- Despite the expected heavy interest from the Yankees and Rangers, Michael Silverman from the Boston Herald thinks the Red Sox should make a serious run at Cliff Lee.
- In the second page of that same article, Silverman quotes an unnamed executive in saying that a package consisting of Jacoby Ellsbury, Jed Lowrie, and prospect Anthony Rizzo wouldn't be enough to pry Adrian Gonzalez away from the Padres. He speculates the names that would be mentioned next would include Casey Kelly and Jose Iglesias.
- Roch Kubatko of MASN Sports says it makes more sense for the Orioles to trade for a middle-of-the-lineup hitter and an ace starter than seek one in free agency, and asks readers whether or not the O's should pursue Zack Greinke. In his blog post earlier today, ESPN's Buster Olney didn't see Baltimore as a fit for the Kansas City ace.
- Reduced payroll will force the Rays into some tough decisions, writes Marc Topkin of the St. Petersburg Times. As Topkin points out, nearly the entire bullpen is entering free agency. Rafael Soriano, Grant Balfour, Randy Choate, Joaquin Benoit, and Chad Qualls are only signed through 2010, while Dan Wheeler's $4MM option will be declined and Lance Cormier could be non-tendered. Balfour and Choate are most likely to return, while Benoit will likely look to capitalize on his monster season.
- Richard Griffin from the Toronto Star spoke with Phillies bench coach Pete Mackanin, who could be a candidate for the Jays' managerial opening, about the difficulty of getting a foot in the door as a manager. As Griffin says, part of the reason they continue to interview candidates while other teams are filling their managerial positions could be because they have a high level of interest in someone like Mackanin, whose team is still playing.
- The Phillies' worst nightmare isn't losing to the Giants in the NLCS or losing to the Yankees in the World Series, according FOX Sports' Ken Rosenthal. It's going to the World Series and facing the ace they traded away last offseason, who now sports a Rangers uniform — Cliff Lee.
to me, adrian gonzalez doesn’t seem worth it. why would you give 5 great players up who will help give the Red Sox an amazing future than one who will add some bat to the lineup. it just doesnt make sense. when adrian’s a free agent i think we’ll pursue him. not right now though.
Agreed. Boston should go crazy for AGon in free agency, but not before.
I agree, I hate giving up prospects for one year of any player. The Red Sox did fine this year without Agon. If it wasnt for all the injuries they probably would have made the playoffs too. Next year if they can stay healthy, they will surely compete. After next year they can go for Agon.
agreed, i do think crawford is a worthy pickup though
I agree about Crawford because he is younger than Werth. The only thing is that Crawford will be really expensive. I’m not sure if they would be able to go after Agon if they sign Crawford. If they are willing to invest that much money I would rather go for Cliff Lee(even though its very unlikely). Then they can possibly trade Dice-k since some teams had some interest and of course they would have to pay most of his salary. Pitching and defense wins championships!
yea, but i would argue that speed is more important than homers. the rays are a fun ball cub to watch. way more fun to watch than the yankees or red sox for that matter because they’re scrappy. they turn a leadoff single into a run like that. crawford could add what ichiro added to the mariners; speed and reliability.
Getting Ellsbury back on the field adds that, he’s just as much of a stolen base threat as Crawford or Ichiro.
Getting Ellsbury back on the field adds that, he’s just as much of a stolen base threat as Crawford or Ichiro.
I dont know about that…Homeruns are pretty fun to watch.
I dont know about that…Homeruns are pretty fun to watch.
yea, but i would argue that speed is more important than homers. the rays are a fun ball cub to watch. way more fun to watch than the yankees or red sox for that matter because they’re scrappy. they turn a leadoff single into a run like that. crawford could add what ichiro added to the mariners; speed and reliability.
if it wasnt for the 7 blown saves you would of had a great year
“Red Sox did fine this year without Agon”
You don’t say? The Red Sox looked great in the ALDS without him. Oh wait…
Great another Ellsury and Lowrie discussion for Adrian G discussion by idiot Red Sox fans. Thought this one titled under “absolutely insane proposal” 10 times before. At least now we gain some added perspective from the fans who unanimounsly agree, Adrian G is not worth it and would not be a vital piece to the Red Sox future. I can see why..Oh wait? huh…
Get Werth and Prince Fielder and we’ll be ready to go.
I just like that your pseudonym is “John LeClair”…
Oh, man- the Phillies could face Cliff Lee!
Forgive me if I laugh at the irony. On some level it would be awesome!
A game 7 featuring Cliff Lee versus Roy Halladay (in Philly) would be even “awesomer”.
Padres are crazy if they think the Sox are giving up Iglesias. Might as well not even ask.
Almost as crazy as anyone that thinks the Padres are giving up Adrian?
You’re crazy if you don’t think they are at least entertaining offers. Max value for Agon will be gotten this offseason. It’s a chance for Jed Hoyer to put a very solid base of young, affordable players into the Padres organization.
Totally agree that they’ll be entertaining offers, but, I think the specter of the Texiera trade looms large whenever anyone talks about trading a star first baseman. If Atlanta had got to the WS with Tex, or, if they had got anything of value for him when they traded him to the Angels to try and regain the lost value, then I could see more deals like that going down. As it is, I think it would be a severe long shot if A-Gon pulls in anything close to the three A-type prospects that Tex did.
Are the Red Sox willing to wait another year, finishing in 3rd place again, waiting for Adrian to become an FA and then have to compete with the Cubs and other teams to get him?
They wont finish 3rd, they had a good team considering it was a “bridge year” considering the blown saves and bullpen problems its funny when people say they are a bat away, they are a couple quality bullpen arms away and a move Bard to the closer role away and trade Papelbon for whatever they can get for him, he doesnt seem happy to be in Beantown anymore.
I agree that Bard is more valuable then Papelbon; however, I think Bell is a
better closer then both of them.
it’s why Boston will wait until after the season and just get him via FA. Pujols, Gonzo, they can have their pick, even fatty Fielder in a flooded market. SD can hold onto him, Boston can keep the future and give him a Tex deal then if they want, no need to give in to Hoyer, who knows the Sox farm system well.
All this speculation over a trade is pure nonsense, Epstein is not going to give in and trade away Iglesis and Kelly, then give him 180m on top of it.
Padre fans can keep on dreaming, they had better be hoping AGone gives them a home town discount which I myself would like to see anyway.
As you will read in the article, the Padres are not asking for this package, this is from an “unnamed executive”….lets just stop with the “they are crazy for asking” blah blah blah posts…..
The Padres do not need Iglesias, they already have a better SS prospect in Drew Cumberland. Cumberland has a much higher upside then Iglesias and should either start at AAA or get promoted to AAA by midseason. Rizzo is not as good as Matt Clark who is a 1st baseman in the Padre system and should start the year at AAA. Clark led the NCAA in home runs coming out of college and has raked at every level of the Padre organization. In addition, the Padres still have Kyle Blanks to play first should Adrian get traded. Casey Kelly also had a crappy year last year at AA, and the Padres have several pitching prospects ready to make the leap to MLB within 2-3 years. If the Red Sox are serious about getting Adrian [Adrian would absolutely rake playing at Fenway and have Gold Glove defense], the trade discussions should start with Ellsbury, Bard and then involve a 3rd team, perhaps the Cardinals for Rasmus. The Padres could put up Adrian, Headley and Heath Bell in return for Ellsbury, Rasmus, Bard and Felix Doubront.
Not saying anything about Cumberland, but iglesias has been rated as the best glove guy in the minor leagues at SS in some quarters. His bat is all there is to question and at 20YO, 1/2 season in the US he still did fairly well at AA.I just can’t see Boston moving him as part of a deal for anyone, much less Casey Kelly.
Cumberland has a pretty good glove, but his bat and speed are very good.
Who knows if it will ever translate at the MLB level, but Cumberland has
been tearing it up in the minors. Cumberland does have an injury bug issue
because he plays so hard he often gets injured.
Not saying anything about Cumberland, but iglesias has been rated as the best glove guy in the minor leagues at SS in some quarters. His bat is all there is to question and at 20YO, 1/2 season in the US he still did fairly well at AA.I just can’t see Boston moving him as part of a deal for anyone, much less Casey Kelly.
Crazy??…A package centered around Iglesias isnt that crazy as long they arent giving up another top prospect too. Agon is a young player who has proven he can play at a very high level. Iglesias has great defense but his bat is still questionable. I wouldn’t mind having an infield with Youk at third, Lowrie/scutaro at ss, Pedroia at 2b and Agon at first.
Michael Silverman needs to understand that the Red Sox have Beckett, Buchholz, Matzusaka, Lackey, and Lester in the rotation for next year. Stupid…
3 of whom, had miserable seasons.
Who also have high salaries. Nobody will take them.
There has to be one team that would take any salary and give out any salary.. hmmmm..
The Yankees? Yes they will trade with the Red Sox… whens the last time that happened
Heh yeah. Never, and probably never will. Just stating fact that there is a team out there who could take on high salaries. But I get the feeling that people tend to think that a trade would never happen between them solely on the fact that fans from both teams tend to despise each other, in a competitive manner I hope.
Well I found an article online about Red Sox/yanks trade of pitchers… but they want me to sign up and pay for it, so no. But the last trade I can remember was 1997 when the Sox traded for Tony Armas Jr. for Bob Stanley. While not that significant at the time, Armas Jr. was flipped a couple of months later as part of a package for Pedro Martinez.
Sox almost traded Lowell to the Yankees this year folks.
redsox traded Babe Ruth to the yankees for cash considerations. does that count? its not really a trade as muc as it was a royal fleecing to the 1000th degree.
Easy to remember and why the don’t trade anymore… Danny Cater for Sparky Lyle.. Worked out perfect for the NYY and a really nice turd for Boston.
Matzuzaka was rumored to be in a Seattle deal, probably because Nintendo likes the idea of having Ichiro and Matzuzaka play together and maybe bring some WBC magic to the major leagues, makes for a good spot for Cliff Lee…but it wont happen
Why in the world would the Sox try to sign Lee when they already have a $50m (in 2011 salary alone) rotation?
Because Michael Silverman says to and Silverman is a genius.
By my count:
Beckett: 15.75 mil
Lackey: 15.25 mil
Matsuzaka: 10 mil (plus I think it would be fair to consider his cost to reflect 1/6th of that 51,111,111 posting fee which would add another 8.5 mil or so though it’s a sunk cost)
Lester: 5.75 mil
Wakefield: 1.5 mil
Tazawa: 500 k
Buchholz: 500 k+
But they are freeing up Lowell’s 12 mil, Beltre’s 10 mil, Papelbon’s 9.35 mil (have to imagine they don’t pay that guy 13-14 mil next year…), 8.4 mil for Hall, 7 mil for Martinez, 3 mil for Varitek and a variety of cheaper parts. That leaves them with about 50 million to spend to keep the same payroll. Assuming the resign Martinez (13 mil per year sound reasonable? Comparable to the deal the Yankees signed Posada to after he went .338/.426/.523 in ’07 – Martinez is 3 years younger, but coming off a lesser year and doesn’t have that ‘special meaning to the team’ nonsense) which leaves them about 40 million to target Lee and a bat or two. As a Yankee fan I’m far more concerned about a Boston rotation with Lee in the mix and someone (Matsuzaka?) replaced. Maybe they finally get a Gonzalez deal done, move Youkilis to 3B and can still financially look at off season of:
Cliff Lee: 23 mil per season
Martinez: 13 mil per season
Gonzalez: 5.5 mil in 2011
Werth: 16 mil per season (assuming a Bay-esque deal)
Total cost: (roughly) 57.5 million in 2011…
Of course I assume they get Gonzo because Beltre walks. Do they let Ortiz walk also? That team option would add another $12.5M to your cost for about $70M. Unless…they let Papi walk…they sign Werth, I assume Ellsbury is gone in Gonzo trade….Cameron in CF, Kalish in RF and Drew DH?
I assumed they’d bring back Ortiz based on productivity and popularity and assumed it would be a similar salary.
I see absolutely no reason Drew should be moved to DH. Drew’s RF UZR/150 the last 3 years: +10.0, +15.8, +4.9. What that means is that Drew is consistently a very good right fielder, so, no, I don’t see any scenario where he gets moved to DH. Kalish’s fielding marks are also highly positive, but in a VERY small sample size (small enough to be damn near irrelevant).
If I’m a Sox fan I dream of a line-up like this in 2011:
Pedroia
Drew
Gonzalez
Youkilis
Ortiz
Werth
Martinez
Cameron
Scutaro/Lowrie
I certainly wouldn’t be upset to see that lineup, especially V-Mart hitting 7th!
hahaha let’s hope for the best.
Ha! I’m hoping to see another lineup without Pedroia and Youkilis for long stretches because I’m a Yankee fan. Wouldn’t mind another near-6 ERA from Beckett either. But I do like to think I can have fairly objective baseball fan conversation about other teams, even the Sox…
If the Sox managed an offseason like the one I outlined earlier I would be VERY concerned for my beloved Yankees.
Haha well now….I give you credit, it’s nice to be able to discuss Sox-Yanks without the “Red Sux” or “A-Roid” stuff. I certainly hope the offseason goes as you posted because if there’s one thing I’ve learned over the many years I’ve been a Sox fan….
Never underestimate the Yankees, inseason or offseason!
really, what does Drew’s UZR matter if he’s mostly MIA on the IRL?
really, what does Drew’s UZR matter if he’s mostly MIA on the IRL?
Over the last four seasons (Since Drew came to Boston), Drew has averaged 131.25 games a season.
Kevin Youkilis, the hard nosed tough guy who most Boston fans say every Sox player should be more like, has averaged…132 games per season.
Drew’s not exactly an Cal Ripken Jr., but he’s a no Mike Hampton either.
Exactly. I don’t like J.D. Drew, but he’s been a very good player over the time of his contract in Boston.
Exactly. I don’t like J.D. Drew, but he’s been a very good player over the time of his contract in Boston.
guess i should have checked before i tried to be clever!
somehow Drew manages to seem a ghost only appearing every couple with a clutch hit
Over the last four seasons (Since Drew came to Boston), Drew has averaged 131.25 games a season.
Kevin Youkilis, the hard nosed tough guy who most Boston fans say every Sox player should be more like, has averaged…132 games per season.
Drew’s not exactly an Cal Ripken Jr., but he’s a no Mike Hampton either.
So if the whole pen is entering free agency then why non-tender Lance Cormier? I expect the Rays to sign a ton of relievers to minor league deals, much like they did with this guy who was only pretty much the best non-closing reliever in Baseball this season, his name is Joaquin Beniot.
He made $1.2MM this season, allowed 10 hits per nine innings pitched, and walked more hitters than he struck out. I’d be surprised if they don’t non-tender him.
which is why i also said ” I expect the Rays to sign a ton of relievers to minor league deals, much like they did with this guy who was only pretty much the best non-closing reliever in Baseball this season, his name is Joaquin Beniot.”
I’m aware, I was simply tackling the first half of your comment. No sense keeping Cormier around with those peripherals when you could take a shot at two or three Benoit-esque reclamation projects with that same amount of money.
Your absolutley right Steve…I was just saying that in addition to those 3-6 minor league signings and 2-3 Beniot’s, might as well bank on a comeback from Cormier because some team will.
Red Sox will go hard after Adrian Gonzalez, they have always liked him. They need to solidify 1b. They have the money to go after Lee, but I don’t think they will out bid the Yanks.
They don’t need to solidify 1B, they have one of the best in the game already
True, but if they don’t resign Beltre, they’ll need a 3B. Youkilis can play 3rd as well and is better than most logical solutions available at 3B (unless they trade for David Wright). It’s the lesser of two evils to switch Youkilis to 3B and get a monster bat at 1B.
I think it would make more sense to sign or trade for a long term solution at third.
The good thing is the Sox have options. They could always sign/trade for a 3B, and still get Gonzo or Fielder and have some flexibility there, someone DH’s and someone plays 3B. It’s never a bad thing to have flexibility.’
That said, it comes down to who’s available, who fits the Sox plans going forward, and of course $$$ (hopefully this is less of a determinant than the other 2)
am i the only one that thinks the sox would be stupid to give up all those players plus the cuban SS, for a-gon? thats way to much IMO, we need the cuban SS or else the revolving door will continue
The cuban SS has a name.
Díselo!!! 😉
You’d hope that they learned their lesson after the Beckett/Ramirez trade.
Well, that Ramirez/Beckett and Lowell trade gave the Red Sox a World Series…
With how key those two players were in getting to and winning the World Series, the Sox wouldn’t have won it if they hadn’t done that trade. It would be nice to have Hanley at SS but as a Red Sox fan I will take the World Series win every time.
I know we look back to that trade, and despite winning in 2007, seeing what Hanley has done is somewhat sickening. Yes, if Sox didn’t have Beckett, no way they win in 2007. But who’s to say if Sox kept Hanley instead of the riff raff at SS over the past 3 years, the Sox couldn’t have won the WS in 2008-2010?
That said, he’s also shown himself to be Manny 2.0, a real piece of work….
Just a thought…
Yeah because getting the 2 players that lead us to the 2007 world series wasn’t worth it.
Wasn’t worth it? Are u high? So u would rather have hanley at SS? Remeber he’s got an (manny being manny thing starting). Ur carzy! He’ll Beckett shouldve won th cy-young in 2007.
Umm dude. Sarcasm. I’ve made it quite clear for years that the Hanley/Beckett trade was one of the most balanced trades in history, one of the very few large trades where both teams won out.
That had to of been the best and most even trades in this decade, what one other team is supposed to get shafted? the Marlins gave them a solid 3rd baseman and a solid pitcher and the Sox gave them a ss they can financially afford and make their fans happy to go to the ballpark, I only wish they had traded with the Sox over the Tigers when they gave away Cabrera, the Sox love paying players to play for other teams, and it would shut the dour on crazy Agon rumors
All 5 of those players is ridiculous. And I tend to agree that Iglesias is pretty much untouchable. It’s not that he’ll put up the same offensive numbers Tulo and Hanley, it’s because of his intrinsic value to the Red Sox future. A shortstop who can finally play gold glove defense.
exactly…. no more revolving SS door
I think the Red Sox are better off with resigning Beltre and keeping Youkilis at 1B. The Rays would be a better fit with Pena probably leaving, and have a better farm at this point.
They can more easily afford the prospect cost, but as soon as it comes time to put up for an extension, the Rays aren’t in a much better position than the Padres are. No way the Rays trade for Gonzalez. They’d be trading the next three or four years (AKA, The Longoria Window) for one season.
They can more easily afford the prospect cost, but as soon as it comes time to put up for an extension, the Rays aren’t in a much better position than the Padres are. No way the Rays trade for Gonzalez. They’d be trading the next three or four years (AKA, The Longoria Window) for one season.
Lets expand the trade a bit here and include the Cardinals. The Padres do not need Lowrie or your SS prospect. How about Agon and Bell to Boston; Headley, Kelley, and Inglesis to the Cardinals and Ellsbury, Rasmus, Doubront and Daniel Bard to the Padres? Boston is giving up 5 players to get two all-stars [one who might well be MVP]. The Padres are giving up 3 [two all-stars] to get 4, and the Cardinals are giving up 1 to get 3. None of the Red Sox’s players are currently All-star caliber; however, they would fit very well with the Padre’s and playing at Petco Park. The two guys the Red Sox get would really help them now and over the next 5 years. The Padres would have an excellent payroll friendly outfield, built for Petco in Rasmus [LF], Ellsbury [CF] and Venable [RF]. The Cardinals would get a potential top of the rotation guy in Kelly, an excellent shortstop in Inglesis and a starting 3rd baseman would put up much better numbers playing in St Louis. The Padres then slot Blanks or Clark at 1st base. Between Rasmus and Blanks, the Padres should get at least 25 dingers, making up for some of the power loss with Agon’s departure.
I still think Iglesias has more worth to the Sox as a future gold glover than as a trade chip. And the fact that we’re now giving up Bard who is 7 years younger, much cheaper, and put up very similar numbers to Bell in the AL East makes me say no much faster than before.
I also don’t recommend giving up Iglesias and Bard, and I also wouldn’t be so fast to give up Rizzo. If the Red Sox we’re serious about getting Gonzalez, I think Anderson/Kelly/Reddick/Lowrie could get it done, or if not, add another prospect. Better to keep some of the upper level talent, while of course not as much as before, while the great potential out of the draft could translate into the upper levels.
You mean Jose Iglesias? Being lazy and reffering to him as “the cuban SS” is insensitive.
Yeah i would take Casey Kelly, Ellsbury and Lowrie just for A-Gon. Now theyre talking about Iglesias too? If this was a legitimate offer I’d be all over it if I were Jed Hoyer.
Giving up that much talent and THEN turning around and giving Gonzo a 5-6 year $120+ contract would be insane. The ONLY way I would do that deal is if Gonzo signed an extension on the spot, otherwise you give away some Ellsbury, Kelly, Iglesias, ect for a 1 year rental? No thanks.
Sox can wait for FA for Gonzo, or even wait for Rizzo at that point.
My offseason prioritys for the Yanks besides Lee is resigning Kerry wood,Marcus Thames. Sign Thome to DH. Sign Beniot for the pen. If Pettitte retires. They COULD give Joba a chance to start again since they’d have Wood and Beniot in the pen. Thome starting DH sits when a Lefty Pitches and Thames starts. Although i never really checked Thomes numbers vs lefties. Im just assuming he sucks against them : o
I agree the Number One priority is Lee. After that(regardless of wether Pettitte comes back)that’s 4 spots in the rotation. I kept saying that Adam Warren, Ivan Nova, and Joba should fight for the 5th spot if Pettitte decides to leave. The rest of the offseason should be commited to the Bullpen, and other holes in the bench that need to be filled, and calling up Montero.
Yea signing Thames back is good for the bench for the lefties. man I would really LOVe Thome LOL Power Lefty in that stadium. It could happen. He’s basically only playing to get 600 and a ring. That could happen going to the Yanks.
Thome would be foolish. He’s allegedly seeking a multi-year deal and both Posada and A-Rod are both a violent sneeze away from being a full-time DH. The Yanks should stop focusing on keeping a slugger at every single position and just shove Posada at the spot for the remainder of his contract and then slide A-Rod in there when he’s gone.
Who’s replacig A-Rod then? Brandon Laird’s defense is pretty bad, and Montero I don’t think is a freak athlete that will have a alot of range. I think they should try Tyler Austin…
Thome would be foolish. He’s allegedly seeking a multi-year deal and both Posada and A-Rod are both a violent sneeze away from being a full-time DH. The Yanks should stop focusing on keeping a slugger at every single position and just shove Posada at the spot for the remainder of his contract and then slide A-Rod in there when he’s gone.
I think its more likely that the Sox would trade for Fielder than AGon. I would rather them sign Derek Lee for 1 year as a stopgap until 2012 just in case Pujos actually reaches free agency. Even if he doesnt, you can almost guarentee that one of Fielder and AGon will hit free ageny. I would rather lost a supplemental draft pick than give up the farm. Focus on signing Crawl Crawford and beefing up the pen this offseason
Only problem with Fielder is Scott Boras is his agent and will be pushing for a Teixeira type contract in FA. Gonzo is just as good and can maybe be had a tad cheaper. Just a thought.
I don’t think the Sox should trade for any first basemen. Why not sign a scab like Overbay, Wigginton, Kotsay, or Lee for 2 years while Anthony Rizzo is being groomed in the minors. Iglesias, Rizzo, Kelly, and Kalish could all start on the Sox in two years, with all that young talent so close to being MLB ready, there’s no sense in trading it all away.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Rizzo’s power potential. But he can’t hit a lefty to save his life. I say trade him now while while his value is high.
I don’t know if that’s reason enough to trade him. He’s only 20 so adjustments can be made. He’s also a plus defender. So I wouldn’t trade him away when he’s got all that power and great D but can’t hit lefty pitching at the age of 20.
He’s only 20, and adjusments can be made, as you saw with Curtis Granderson. Not comparing them, just merely saying that adjustments can be made. He’s also a good defender. I would trade Anderson rather than him.
I know he’s young and can make a turn around. Call it a gut feeling that he’s more valuable as a trade chip than as a a future starter.
I agree. Prospects can have enormous value but that value can quickly vanish. If they plan to bring in a Gonzo or Fielder, Rizzo would be blocked anyways.
Your farm will not beat the Yanks and the Rays. Werth, Gonzalez, Rimirez, Frazor,will give them a good chance.
I think of it this way: Everyone was once a prospect. Take the Twins for example Joe Mauer, Justin Morneau, Michael Cuddyer all came up roughly at the same time and now are the cogs of their teams offensive attack. So when you say that Rizzo, Kelly, Kalish, Iglesias won’t beat the yanks and Rays when they first come up, you’re probably right, but they can potentially potentially be as important to the Sox offense in a year or two as Mauer, Morneau, and Cuddyer.
Who would Sox fans consider their two best prospects right now?
According to my rankings, Casey Kelly and Ryan Kalish. Ryan Westmoreland was injured so.
Well consensus would have Kelly as #1. Ranaudo probably has the highest ceiling of any other prospect, but he has yet to throw a professional inning. So yeah, I’d say Kalish is the second best.
I’d say Kelly is an enormous reach. How he went from posting 48.1 phenomenal innings in the Sally League and 46.2 pretty good innings in the Carolina League during 2009 (after flunking out as a hitter for a year and half) to being Baseball America’s 24th best prospect in all of baseball is a mystery. Then he proceeds to go out and get lit up in the Eastern League, albeit at age 20. I would say he shouldn’t be a Top 100er when next year’s list rolls out, just as he shouldn’t have been one last year.
He was a 20 year old kid who pitched his first full professional season in AA ball. Despite his high ERA, he managed an FIP of just under 3.9 and had a high strikeout rate and a decent walk rate. All things considered I think he did fine in a division where he was clearly going to be in over his head. I think you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think Kelly is a good prospect. He’ll be in the top 100 next year because he still has the make up of an ace.
You’re right that he will be a BA Top 100 guy in 2011 (BA won’t drop a guy from 24th to greater than 100th), and that he remains a top prospect Red Sox-wise, but I am still skeptical long term, hence I don’t think he’s anywhere close to being the 24th best prospect in the entire minor leagues.
You need to account for the fact that the minor leagues are more about getting your work in than actual stats. You focus on a given pitch, get it beefed up and worry about how many runs are crossing the plate later. That’s what Kelly was supposed to be doing in AA, working on his stuff rather than actually competing.
If he’s still in the minors at 24 and posting those kinds of numbers, then I’ll start to worry. For now? I’m willing to give him time to work on his stuff.
I think we could substitute Martin Perez for Casey Kelly here and continue this debate ad nauseum. There’s clearly no right answer and no wrong answer. I was just espousing an opinion that we can’t entirely discount one year of bad performance just because Baseball America says a player is a top-rated prospect (and likewise, in the case of Kelly we shouldn’t overvalue one-half-year of good performance just because he was a recent 1st rounder and/or Baseball America ranked him so highly). Surely it will be very interesting to see how Kelly, Perez, and Jordan Lyles (the other 20-or-younger starter that spent most of 2010 in AA) pan out long-term.
I’m not sure Kalish counts as a prospect anymore. Probably Kelly, Rizzo, or Ranaudo even though he hasn’t played pro yet.
Kolbrin Vitek, Anthony Ranaudo, Ryan Kalish, Casey Kelly, Jose Iglesias, Felix Sanchez, Anthony Rizzo, Brandon Workman, Kyle Weiland, Ryan Westmoreland would be my top 10.
Alot of them have not even made their proffesional debut.
two of them have not made their professional debut. And Strasburg was #2 overall prospect in Baseball last year before making his debut. if they are in the system, they can rank.
Is this in order? I would put Kelly up top
You would put someone who might not ever play pro ball again in your top 10 propsects list?
maybe because 1. he’s making a remarkable recovery so far, and 2. if he can get close to what he used to be he is still a very good player.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m pulling as hard as anyone for Ryan to make a full recovery and to get back to playing ball ASAP. But it’s just ridiculous to call someone a top 10 prospect when there’s a very real chance they are not going to play professional baseball ever again..
Well, prospects are all about risk vs. potential. At least in Spandemoniums view, Westmorelands high potential outweighs the risk. There are other players in the Red Sox system that are more dependable, with much lower risk than Westmoreland, but other than the 9 guys Span posted, I think that most of the leftover farm system’s potential is much lower than Westmoreland.
Weatmoreland is currently in FT. Myers doing drills to prepare for the instructional league
The Sox are not in the same division as the Twins. They don’t have time to grow prospects like the Rays and Twins did. They are already wondering about Ellsbury who was their best prospect and is better than Kalish,Vitek, Brentz, or Fuentes their top prospects in the of. They have to balance free agents and build prospects too win,and get lucky and make the right moves.
I’m not sure the Red Sox would make a serious run at Cliff Lee. If they were to do so and possibly sign him, that’s a TON of money tied up in the rotation alone. They have plenty of money to work with but Lee doesn’t seem viable. As for AGon… I’m not sure paying the price two times (prospects and cash for an extension is the way to go). It’s going to take at least Kelley or Iglesias surrounded by Rizzo/Anderson, Middlebrooks, Weiland. Probably would take more than just them. That’s a scary thought considering you will have to pay him a massive contract also.
I dont think the money is as important to the Red Sox as the access to Agon is. The Red Sox will see a lot of competition for Agon should he reach free agency. Next to Cabrerra [Tigers] and Pujols [Cardinals], Adrian Gonzalez is option 1a. While Fielder is a good first baseman, he is not in Adrians league. You have to realize that Adrian’s offensive numbers suffer greatly playing half his games at Petco. I think Adrian had the best road batting average in the majors last year.
I’m not saying the money is as important to them. The double premium is. It just might be worth it to wait until he hits free agency. Suffer two draft picks and sign him to his big contract. I would love to see him in a Red Sox uniform but giving up blue chip prospects AND money for a guy seems like it’s too much. We’ve backed out before with Roy Halladay and Johan Santana because we didn’t want to pay the double premium. Granted they’re pitchers, it’s still similar. AGon is a top player at his position as they are. What do we value more in baseball? An ace or an everyday player? I’d have to say an ace. They’re few and far between and if we didn’t pull the trigger then I don’t see it happening now.
You make some good points. The Red Sox are one big bat away from really
competing, they are set with pitching. Is there one big bat on the market
this year that would do as much for the Red Sox as Gonz would? The Red Sox
could wait until next year but then they would be competing with the Cubs,
Orioles, Braves, and a few other teams. The Red Sox are very close and to
get back two all-stars for 5 players is not too steep of a price to pay.
Gonzalez is still very young, and while Bell is a little older, he still has
at least 5 good years of baseball left. Bell has been among baseballs
leaders in saves the last two years. The Red Sox farm system is not any
better then the Padres at this point; therefore, it does not benefit the
Padres to receive in return any of the Red Sox prospects, other then
possibly Doubrant [sp]. It makes sense for the Padres to trade Gonz this
winter, if the Red Sox dont want to play ball then they will miss out.
I wonder how much Benoit will go for. If he is in the $3-$5 million area I think the Braves could be contenders for his services. Wren said he wants an established bullpen arm to add some stability to the back end of the rotation, and they are saving close to $10 million between Wagner and Saito.
God I hate Ken Rosenthal.
But he is so tall and masculine….
LOL. He’s like one of the Lollipop Kids.
I would rather use the 10MM saved from Wags and Saito for a big OF Bat that the Braves desperately need. They have enough pitiching.
I would too, but Wren said he wants to sign a free agent reliever. Chances are, there will be no outfielders to acquire within that price range, plus some of that $10 million will go to Moylan, JJ and Prado’s arbitration raises.
Why does everyone seem to think that the Phiilies are a forgone conclusion to get to the WS? Granted the have a better all-around team, but SF’s pitching matches up pretty well. In fact you can give a slight edge to their Bullpen. That’s why they play the games.
Probably because they’re the overwhelming favorite to do so. I don’t think anyone thinks it would be impossible for the Giants to win the series, but any rational-thinking person who was forced to bet their life on the series would pick the Phillies (well, at least before last night they would have).
Ellsbury/Lowrie/Rizzo is a low ball offer for A.Gonz. Obviously not enough. Iglesias isn’t going anywhere, he’s our shortstop of the future. But I would give the Padres Kelly if that’s what it took to get him this offseason. Maybe Kelly/Ellsbury/Lowrie/Anderson? There’s also plenty of other prospects we could mix and match in a deal headlined by Kelly and Ellsbury like Navarro, Reddick, Weiland, Pimentel, Britton, etc.
Grienke to the Rangers baby. We have the prospects to make the deal happen and we have an agressive GM with backing from ownership.
Derek HollandTanner Scheppers + Julio Borbon + Davis Stoneburner + an A Ball sleeper.
Royals get the everday CF they need badly in Borbon, who is under team control for 5 years; a potential ace out of one of HollandScheppers; a solid MI prospect with pop in Stoneburner; and we have a plethora of flame throwing high upside A ball pitchers.
Imo I think the Red Sox far system is better than the yankees. But the rays beats both of them. The Red Sox have good drafts every year, this year was a great one for the sox.
I sure everyone in Boston will be absolutely thrilled when the Pawtucket Red Sox win the International League title
Forget Gonzalez, go for Miguel cabrera. I’d rather spend prospects on him. He’s got a contract, played in the AL, younger. That’s If they were listening for offers. Trade a prospect or to for prince, and then get Adrian in the offseason and let prince go of he’s still asking for a Ryan Howard type of contract.
A couple of points: 1) Gonzalez did play in the AL, he was prospect for the Rangers. 2) There’s no way in hell Miguel Cabrera will hit the open market any time in the near future. There’s no way in hell the Tigers will listen to offers. Don’t bother mentioning him… it’s like suggesting a team needing a shortstop trades for Tulo or a team needing a pitcher trades for Lincecum.
go back to making trades on MLB2K10……..
YANKS have better young players than the Sox. From the Hardball Times:
Montero,Hughes,Chamberlain,Banuelos,Betances,Sanchez, Brackman,Romaine,Culver, and Laird. They also have Nunez, Nova, Robertson, and Cervelli. All under 26 as of 4/1/11.
Yeah I read that article too. While they do seem to place the yanks farm system higher, they attribute it to Montero, not to depth of youth or talent. Also in terms of youth, raise the age to 27 and suddenly it’s a whole new discussion with Lester and Buchholz.
If Laird can work out his problems at 3B, I think A-Rod can move to DH, and Laird can take the hot corne. In the future. Not too crazy about Culver though. I really didn’t like the draft choice, the Yankees are probably better off moving David Adams, Tyler Austin, and Rob Segedin to SS, as well as drafting good SS to create competition. That or just try and trade for one. Cervelli at best is a pretty below average back-up catcher. Hopefully Montero can just hold it down for a year or two, and Romine or Sanchez(maybe even Austin)force him out of there.
I don’t get the hate for Cervelli. Keep in mind that C’s have a much lower standard offensively. Defensively he regressed as far as the running game 55/9 which is horrible. Last year he was almost 50% with 13/10. So I’m not sure what’s up there. But as far as receiving the ball he is great. He had only 2 PB which was tied w/ Matt Weiters for #1 among C w/ over 700 innings caught. When you consider that he’s Burnett’ss aka “Wild Thang” personal catcher that’s impressive. As far as his bat, .271/.359 and w/ RISP hit a robust .316/.402 w/ 37 rbi. He’s not an automatic out and we can live w/ him batting 8th or 9th. Plus he has some speed so he doesn’t clog up the bases like Jose Molina did the last 2 years. Hopefully, Pena and Girardi can help him fix whatever caused him to be so awful vs the running game this year compared to how great he was in 2009. But right now he’s probably the best defensive C in the entire Yanks system and probably better than half of the other C in the majors.
gonzalez doesn’t seem worth it
Nope. Why trade for an inj.(shoulder) Gonzalez when they could get a rehab’d version in Nov. ’11 free-agency. Until then I’d try to sign Konerko/Lee/Dunn and move either off 1b and to Dh in ’12 after the Ortiz option is up. Love to sign Konerko to a 2-year deal and he might go for it as he’s talked retirement even after this superb ’10 season. This of course is a senario if Beltre doesn’t sign and Youkilis moves over. A !B trade this winter when Pujols,Agon,Prince hit the market in Nov ’11 is throwing key prospects away and it isn’t happening.
Imo I think the Red Sox far system is better than the yankees. But the rays beats both of them. The Red Sox have good drafts every year, this year was a great one for the sox.
——————————-
I’m not sure if I would agree.One thing that is clear to me is that prospect ranking is highly subjective. One man’s top 50 might not even make another guys top 100. People always suggest that Yanks (rather the media) overrate Yankee prospects. That can be said of almost all prospects but in fact I think their system has been underrated over the last 3 years. Look at what it’s produced and look at what they still have. Some prospects have struggled here or there but for the most part most have “stuck” in the majors (even if they’re not all-stars) and many have come off of great years.
In the majors: You know about Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, Brett Gardner and Dave Robertson. Alfredo Aceves (hurt most of 2010 but career of 3.21 ERA in 126 IP), Phil Coke (74 g, 3.76 ERA, 2 saves), Mike Dunn (2.74 ERA, 32 KO in 23 IP), Austin Jackson (.293/.345, 181 hits, 27 SB), Jose Tabata (.299/.346 w/ 121 H in 102 Games), Ian Kennedy (3.80 ERA, 194 IP, 168 KO) and even poor little, much maligned Francisco Cervelli (.271/.359 in 266 AB in 2010 as a 24 yr old back up C).
And already ranked as top 100 guys on most lists: Jesus Montero, Aroldys Vizcaino (now w/ Braves) and Austin Romine.
And guys who should be in consideration for the next top 100 list:
Dellin Betances/22- A+/AA- 8-1, 2.11 ERA in 85 IP and 108/22 ko/bb (DNP until June)
Andrew Brackman/25- A+/AA- 10-11, 3.90 ERA in 140 Ip and 126/39 ko/bb (DNP until June)
Manuel Banuelos/19- A+/AA- 0-4 (15 starts) 2.51 ERA, 64 IP and 85/25 ko/bb
Ivan Nova/23 @ AAA- 12-3, 2.86 ERA in 145 IP and 115/48 ko/bb.
Dave Phelps/23 @ AA/AAA- 10-2. 2.50 ERA in 156 IP and 141/36 ko/bb.
Hector Noesi/23 @ A+/AA/AAA- 14-7, 3.20 ERA in 160 IP and 153/28 ko/bb.
Adam Warren/23 @ A+/AA- 11.7, 2.59 ERA in 135 Ip and 126/33 ko/bb
Gerald Laird/23 @ AA/AAA- .281/.336 w/ 25 hrs,28 dbls and 102 RBI @ 3B
Dave Adams//23 @ AA- (hurt most of 2010) Career line of .281/.370 w/ .809 OPS in 1,039 PA @ 2B
Corban Joseph/21 @ A+/AA- .283/.362 w/ 33 dbls, 7 trips and 6 hrs @ 2B
And that’s not including anyone that finished below AA (SP Jose Ramirez @ 20, LF/CF Eduardo Sosa @ 19, CF Kelvin Deleon @ 19, CF/RF Melky Mesa (20/20 guy) @ 23 , CF Zolio Almonte @ 21, CF Abraham Almonte @ 21 or any of our 2009 draft picks (except for Warren who finished in AA).
2009 draftees @ low A Sally- 1st rnd CF Slade Heathcott @ age 19-.258/.359 w/ 15 SB), 2nd rnd C JR Murphy @ age 19-.255/.327 w/ 7 hrs), 6th rnd 3B Robert Lylerly @ age 22-.312/.352, 36 dbls), 14th rnd SP Graham Stoneburner @ age 22 -9-8, 2.41 ERA in 142 IP and 137/34)
2010 draftees-Not enough playing time to talk about.
International FA’s below AA debuting in 2010:
17 yo C-Gary Sanchez @ GCL/SS (probable top 100 prospect in 2011)-.329/.393 w/ 8 hrs in 47 G
18 yo OF-Ramon Flores @ GCL/A-/A+: .303/.390 in 234 AB
People are already comparing Sanchez to Montero and I would not be shocked to see Montero, Sanchez, Romine, Betances, Brackman, Banuelos, Laird, Nova, Warren and Noesi as top 100 guys next year as most will start off at AA or AAA and guys like Dave Adams, JR Murphy and Graham Stoneburner making some noise next year and appearing on some end of season lists too.
I love your long posts. Anyway good points you bring up there, I’m particularly excited to see Dellin Betances, Manny Banuelos, and Jesus Montero make it to the Majors(hopefully in Yankee pinstripes). But the reason the Yanks farm is underrated or not payed attention to is because of the presense of all the other farms in the AL East, and that the Yankees tend to trade all their prospects. But with the Yanks horrible drafts the past few years(I really think they should get someone other than Damon Oppenheimer), there’s really not much talent in the lower levels, though I like the potential from Corban Joseph, Gary Sanchez, Slade Heathcott, JR Murphy ect. Oh and it’s Brandon Laird not Gerald.
You’re missing my point and I definetly think you’re wrong about Oppenheimer. Look at all the talent that has been drafted or signed by the Yanks since Cashman took over the draft in 2005 and Oppenheimer was dir of player personell in 2001 and promoted to scouting director in 2005.
2005- Gardner (3rd rnd), Austin Jackson (8th rnd)
2006- Joba (1st rnd), IPK (1st rnd), McAllister (3rd rnd), Betances(8th rnd), Melancon (9th rnd), Robertson (17th rnd), Kevin Russo (20th rnd)
2007- Brackman (1st rnd), Austin Romine (2nd rnd), Brandon Laird (27th rnd)
2008- Gerritt Cole (1st rnd DNS), Jeremy Bleich (1st rnd), Dave Adams (3rd rnd), Corban Josep (4th rnd), Brett Marhsall (6th rnd), DJ Mitchell (10th rnd), David Phelps (14th rnd),
2009- Heathcott (1st rnd), JR MUrphy (2nd rnd), Adam Warren (3rd rnd), Graham Stoneburner(14th rnd).
2010- Too early to tell.
International Signings since 2004- Jesus Montero, Jose Tabata, Alfredo Aceves, Manuel Banuelos, Jose Ramirez, Arodys Vizcaino, Ivan Nova, Hector Noesi, Ramiro Pena and Eduardo Nunez.
So that’s…..
8 guys currently holding down jobs in the majors: Joba, IPK, Austin Jackson, Brett Gardner, David Robertson, Alfredo Aceves, Ramiro Pena and Jose Tabata
3 guys who’ve hit AAA and have had a cup of coffee: Melancon, Nunez and Nova
3 guys currently ranked as top 100 prospects: Jesus Montero, Austin Romine and Arodys Vizcaino.
9 guys coming off of great years who have shots at being top 100 prospects next year: Betances, Banuelos, Brackman, Warren, Nova, Noesi, Laird, Dave Adams and Dave Phelps.
guys drafted/signed in 2008 and 2009 who scouts say have great upside at premium positions SP/C/CF/2B/SS: Heathcott (CF), Murphy (C), Sanchez (C), Brett Marshall (SP), Dave Adams (2B, the injured guy that the M’s wanted as the last piece in the Cliff Lee deal).
Others: 1st rnd pick Gerritt Cole didn’t sign in 2008 but was easily considered a top 5 pick and will probably be a top 5 in 2011 if he comes out. Yanks took a chance and it didn’t work. Jeremy Belich was our 2nd 1st rnd pick in 2008. He’s had a mixed career so far and missed most of 2010 w/ TJ but he’s a 6’2 lefty starter that throws a 93-96 mph FB and has decent off speed stuff.
Cashman and Oppenheimer have certainly missed on some 1st rnd picks (CJ Henry in 2005 over Ellsbury, Buccholz, Garza, Rasmus and Buck) but what team doesn’t have a 1st rnd draft they mess up on once in a while?
Overall though I would say they’ve done a better than avg job of drafting since being given the power (Cashman) and position (Oppenheimer as Scouting Dir) in 2005.
As for 2010’s pick of Cito Culver, who knows. Certainly won’t compare him to Derek Jeter but he (Jeter) was somewhat of an obscure pick that people questioned back in 1992.
Back in 1992
Derek Jeter
Kalamazoo (Mich.) Central High. Age 17, 1992.
Report 1: Gliding runner w/ burst type acceleration. Very qk. feet, very gd. lower body control. Arm strength to spare! Excellent carry and can throw from all angles + body positions.
Report 2: Slender, agile body with long arms and legs. Large feet … Outstanding infield instincts. Soft hands and strong, accurate arm. Bat has quickness with little long stroke. Makes contact with gap power. Will hit occasional long ball. Comes to play.
Drafted: Yankees, No. 6 overall.
Not exaclty oozing HOF baseball player right?
This is Cito Culver’s BB scouting report
Baseball America scouting report.
Hidden away in upstate New York—hardly a baseball hotbed—Culver sticks out like a sore thumb. He is the rare Northeast prep product with a legitimate chance to play shortstop in the major leagues. Culver’s best tool is his arm, which rates as a 65 on the 20-80 scouting scale. Some scouts report seeing him up to 94 mph off the mound, but he has no interest in pitching. The game comes easily to Culver, whose actions, instincts and range are all plus at times, though he has a long way to go to become a consistent defender, and some believe he profiles as a utility player down the road. The 6-foot-2, 175-pound Culver is a solid-average runner and a switch-hitter with a loose, whippy swing from both sides of the plate. He projects to have below-average power and is mostly a slap hitter, but he does generate good bat speed and could be an average hitter as he gets stronger. Culver is an excellent athlete who plays basketball in the winter, and he could take off once he focuses on baseball. He could be drafted in the fourth- to sixth-round range, but he is considered a difficult sign away from his Maryland commitment.
Is he going to be the next Jeter? Of course not. Can he be a solid mlb SS? Quite possibly. And if you can get a mlb SS who hangs around for 10-12 years in the 1st rnd then guess what? You’ve done a great job at scouting. I think sometime we confuse what a mlb prospect is. If you select Jon Garland as 1st rnd 10th overall pick and 10 years later he’s won 132 games with a 4.32 ERA including two 18 win seasons under team control then you’ve done a pretty good scouting job. Just because that 1st rnd pick isn’t a future HOF doesn’t make him a bust. There’s a lot of value from a mid/back rotaion starter who costs you nothing of consequence. It’s when they DON’T stick in the majors that you have a problem
I still think Damon Oppenheimer is still really not that great of a scouting head. And to me, the talent you scout that ends up on another team doesen’t count. And we see a ton of Yankee prospects almost in every rumor. Can’t even tell you how many times the Yankees tried to trade Robinson Cano when he was in the minors. I really don’t like the style of wheel and deal your prospects too much. Some of them can actually pan out.
Yeah but Oppenheimer doesn’t control who stays and who goes, only Cashman does. Opps job is to bring them in and the GM’s job is to decide how they use them. Opps is so well thought of he was a candidate for a few GM jobs this year but the Yanks wouldn’t give permission for him to talk to interview for any of the jobs he was approached about.
Cano was offered to the Royals for Grienke a while ago I think I heard that somewhere… please please please put that offer back on the table…lol
Also, I’m not turning this into a Yanks vs Sox issue but prospect rankings are so subjective. Take Rizzo as an example. I don’t know how good his glove is but can’t help but compare his 2010 season of .260/.334 w/ 42 dbls and 25 hrs @ A-/AA @ age 20/21 to that of Brandon Laird’s age 20 season in 2008 when he hit a comparable .273/.334 w/ 31 dbls and 23 hrs @ A- playing 3B. One is considered a prospect and the other wasn’t even on the radar at all despite being a power hitting 3B w/ good blood lines (which is overrated IMO).
It will be very interesting to see if Manny Banuelos and Casey Kelly are both ranked top 50 this preseason.
Casey Kelly w/b 21 playing at AA coming off of a tough season at the same level.
Manny Banuelous w/b 20 probably at AA as well after 3 starts there in 2010 at that level too. Plus Manny is a lefty. Both pitchers were lauded for adding velocity to their FB. If Kelly sticks in the top 50 but Manny doesn’t make it then that sort of makes me shake my head. It won’t bother really but I think there’s a lasting feeling that the Sox have a better systen and I can’t help but feel that it’s “layover love” from the great drafts of 2003 (Papelbon, D. Murphy), 2004 (Pedroia), 2005 (Buccholz, Bowden, Lowrie, Ellsbury and Exposito) and 2006 (Bard, Masterson, Kalish, Reddick).
They’ve had some good picks like Hagadone, Rizzo, Kelly, Westmoreland and Fuentes, some great FA like Iglesias and then some great names in 2010 but would anyone say they are a top 10 system right now and if so then where would the Yankees rank with guys like Montero, Nova, Betances, Brackman, Banuelos, Warren, Noesi, Adams and Laird already at AA or AAA and all came into the system in 2007-2009 except for Betances (drafted ’06), Nova and Noesi who were signed as 16 yo’s?
Alright, you know I’m not starting a flame war…
But layover love? Tell me, who from the 2007-2010 drafts by the yanks is in the majors. There’s 1… but he didn’t sign with the yanks, Drew Storen. The Sox have a handful of developing and exciting picks from the last several drafts just as the yanks have had. So no, I wouldn’t call it layover love when you include Rizzo, Britton, Kelly, Lavarnway, Fuentes, Younginer, and whoever starts to develop from the last draft. I’d still say the Sox have a very good farm.
Truth be told, ask me who has the better farm and I would say the yanks… but ultimately because of Montero. Take him out and it becomes a debate.
You’re sort of making my point. Neither team has had anyone reach the majors since 2007 (except for Alfredo Aceves) but since 2007 the Yanks have drafted/signed Austin Romine (drafted ’07), Andrew Brackman (drafted ’07), Alfredo Aceves (signed ’08 and already an integral part of mlb team), Jesus Montero (winter of 2006, debuted in 07), Brandon Laird (drafted in 07), Dave Adams (drafted in ’08), Corban Joseph (drafted in ’08), Manny Banuelos (‘signed in 08), DJ Mitchell (drafted in ’08) and Adam Warren (drafted in 09).
Those are not just prospects but prospects that are already having success at AA or AAA levels.
That’s 1 guy who is already a valuable mlb player in Aceves.
1 guy who’s a top 5-10 prospect in Montero. 2 guys who’ve appeared in several top 50 or top 100 lists in Romine and Banuelos. And several guys who should be on some top 50-100 lists this year in Brackmane, Betances, Warren, Phelps, Nova, Noesi, Laird, Adams, etc.
Also, consider that in the last 3 years (2007-2009) the Yanks had Austin Jackson (top 50), Arodys Vizcaino (top 100) and Jose Tabata (top 100) in their system as well as Phil Coke and Mike Dunn, two guys already holding jobs in the majors as well.
My ultimate point is that the system has been very productive over the last 4 to 5 years (didn’t even include guys who debuted in 2007 like Gardner, Joba, IPK and Hughes) and is stocked with lots of near mlb ready SP at AA/AAA and yet the way people talk about the system you would think it’s been barren in the last few years.
Phil Hughes, Joba, IPK, Gardner, Robertson, Aceves, Coke, Dunn, Tabata, Austin Jackson and several at the higher levels of the minors is far from barren.
You’re sort of making my point. Neither team has had anyone reach the majors since 2007 (except for Alfredo Aceves) but since 2007 the Yanks have drafted/signed Austin Romine (drafted ’07), Andrew Brackman (drafted ’07), Alfredo Aceves (signed ’08 and already an integral part of mlb team), Jesus Montero (winter of 2006, debuted in 07), Brandon Laird (drafted in 07), Dave Adams (drafted in ’08), Corban Joseph (drafted in ’08), Manny Banuelos (‘signed in 08), DJ Mitchell (drafted in ’08) and Adam Warren (drafted in 09).
Those are not just prospects but prospects that are already having success at AA or AAA levels.
That’s 1 guy who is already a valuable mlb player in Aceves.
1 guy who’s a top 5-10 prospect in Montero. 2 guys who’ve appeared in several top 50 or top 100 lists in Romine and Banuelos. And several guys who should be on some top 50-100 lists this year in Brackmane, Betances, Warren, Phelps, Nova, Noesi, Laird, Adams, etc.
Also, consider that in the last 3 years (2007-2009) the Yanks had Austin Jackson (top 50), Arodys Vizcaino (top 100) and Jose Tabata (top 100) in their system as well as Phil Coke and Mike Dunn, two guys already holding jobs in the majors as well.
My ultimate point is that the system has been very productive over the last 4 to 5 years (didn’t even include guys who debuted in 2007 like Gardner, Joba, IPK and Hughes) and is stocked with lots of near mlb ready SP at AA/AAA and yet the way people talk about the system you would think it’s been barren in the last few years.
Phil Hughes, Joba, IPK, Gardner, Robertson, Aceves, Coke, Dunn, Tabata, Austin Jackson and several at the higher levels of the minors is far from barren.
They wont finish 3rd, they had a good team considering it was a “bridge year” considering the blown saves and bullpen problems its funny when people say they are a bat away, they are a couple quality bullpen arms away and a move Bard to the closer role away and trade Papelbon for whatever they can get for him, he doesnt seem happy to be in Beantown anymore.
—————————————
Last year was a “bridge year”? A bridge to what? They just got thru signing Lackey, Beltre and Scutaro and traded for VMart midway thru last year. They were going for it all not just trying to “bridge” thru growing pains. They were going for it all. Now I know they felt short because of injuries most likely but they have a lot of holes they have to consider for next year. They are more than a bat away.
They have to bring back or replace their starting Catcher and 3B. Decide whether or not to bring back Papi or replace him as well @ DH. They need to decide on whether to keep Papelbon or to promote Bard to closer. They need to fix the rest of the bullpen and possibly find a suitable 8th inning guy if they promoter Bard. And they also need to address the left side of their OF unless they want to stick with Ellsbury and Cameron. Certainly not an impossible task when you have the resourced the Sox have but it’s still a lot to work on. And then you have to hope that Beckett, Dice-K and Lackey are healthy and rebound off of a bad year and that Buccholz 2010 year wasn’t a fluke.
I agree that “bridge year” is a dumb comment. But as for the “bat away” comment I believe it’s also stupid but for a different reason. Had Youk and Pedroia, 2 of our biggest offensive players not been out for nearly half the season each then I think we’d have a much different look at the AL East. Add to that the plan of better defense was compromised by injuries to Cameron and Ells. Also despite many Red Sox haters tendency to laugh at Beckett’s season… I’d like to remind people he was injured for a a good chunk of the year.In short while this team does have some question marks with potentially losing VMart and Beltre next year, this wasn’t a bridge team or a bat away from competing team. This was a team with many high profile injuries.One more thing on the “Buchholz could have been a fluke” theory. If so many yanks fans are convinced Buchholz was a fluke (not an attack on you YFS78, I believe your argument was more of a sound baseball question) then why are many of you treating Nova like a top pitching prospect… prior to his break out season in AAA he was widely considered to have the ceiling of a #4 or #5 pitcher.
Ivan Nova was always on the radar. The Padres drafted him as a rule 5 guy and the Yanks put him on the 40 man roster prior to 2010 to protect him. He had a standout year in 2010 and became a real prospect. Some guys put it all together. BY no means has anyone called him a front of the rotation guy at all. But if we can sign Lee and Pettite retires I would have ZERO problem using him as a #5 guy behind CC, Lee, AJ and Hughes.
No with all the talk of who should be the AL Cy Young and the whole conversation of Felix dominating in the weak AL Central and CC winning games w/ a respectable ERA in the AL Beast I am shocked that Clay Buccholz isn’t getting any real consideration considering he is the BEST arguement one can make. Get past the sexy stats like strikeouts (Felix’s 232 to Bucc’s 120) for a second. He pitched in the AL East where he had to face the Yanks, Jays and Rays 8x while Felix only faced them 4x plus the Sox once. Yet his ERA was only .06 higher than King Felix (2.27 vs 2.33). He won’t get any serious votes but I was shocked at how well he performed this year. Whether it’s sustainable or not is the question. He had a 2.33 ERA but a 3.61 FIP and a 4.20 xFIP. Probably not but he can still be a great pitcher w/ a 3.50 ERA in the AL East right?
Buchholz wasn’t even the best pitcher on the Sox, much less in the AL East. I’d say Lester was the best overall pitcher in the AL East this year.
That said, I’d still give the Cy Young to Hernandez. For all the talk of this AL Beast crap (Not pointing the finger at you, it’s everywhere), Hernandez absolutely dominated AL East teams and never got to face the single worst offense in the MLB: his own.
Aside from the sexy strikeouts and perhaps luck (BUchholz had a high FIP and xFIP) what about his year doesn’t make him a better pitcher than Lester? Again, I’m not talking about who’s going to be the long-term better pitcher but who WAS the better pitcher w/ better results last year? Does it matter if player “A” has 250 ko and player “B” has 150 if they have similar ERA, whip, etc?
Lester vs Buchholz
ERA- 3.25 vs 2.33
Whip- 1.20 vs 1.20
H/9- 7.2 vs 7.3
k/9- 9.7 vs 6.2
BB/9- 3.6 vs 3.5
Bat avg- .200 vs .226
OBP- .303 vs .303
So other than the KO what’s the difference between the two pitchers this year…..other than Buchholz ERA which is about 1 full run less than Lester’s and .06 away from leading the AL while playing in a much better division?
Felix will get the Cy YOung because of his IP, KO and overall ERA, WHIP, etc but It can be said that Buchholz was one of the top pitchers in the AL East along side CC, Price and Lester.
Buchholz wasn’t even the best pitcher on the Sox, much less in the AL East. I’d say Lester was the best overall pitcher in the AL East this year.
That said, I’d still give the Cy Young to Hernandez. For all the talk of this AL Beast crap (Not pointing the finger at you, it’s everywhere), Hernandez absolutely dominated AL East teams and never got to face the single worst offense in the MLB: his own.
It was considered a bridge year because the guys they signed are short term deals to play while prospects develop. Scutaro was signed as the bridge to Iglesias, Cameron to Kalish/another OFer, and you could argue that Beltre was a cheap, low risk high reward bridge for a better 3B/1B on the trading block in the future.
A “bridge” year is usually one when you play the kids and deal with the growing pains like the Yanks were attempting to do in 2008 when they had Hughes, Joba and IPK slated as their 3,4 and 5 starters. When you sign Cameron for 2/15, Scutaro for 2/13 w/ an option and Lackey for 5/83 then you’re doing so because you’re looking to compete. Adrian Beltre was signed as a bridge to another FA. He was signed to a 1 year plus an option year because he struggled in 2009 and had to prove himself. If the Sox can, I’m sure they would sign him to a 3 or 4 year deal this winter. They started the year promosing to focus on pitching and defense. If you ask most fans and the FO they expected to be in the mix as real contenders in 2010 and the near future. Injuries prevented that this year but let’s not revise history here. Who’s going to pay a 31 yo pitcher $18 mil to be a “bridge”?
Then Theo was looking to make a new definition of the term “bridge” because he’s the one that first coined the phrase. He meant it as signing short-term FA’s to compete but not block prospects coming up in a year or two, hence the one and two year deals to Scutaro (Iglesias or Lowrie if he can get his health in order), Cameron (someone like Kalish), and Beltre (either to a more tantalizing FA or to Rizzo/Lars). Disagree with it all you want, but only one long-term deal was made by the Sox, and that was Lackey, for whatever reason. The Sox FO wanted to remain competitive (and you can argue that had they stayed healthy the team would have been until the very end) but still be able to have open spaces for the top prospects in a year or two.
There’s a big difference between signing a veteran to “bridge” the gap to a promising rookie like Scutaro and Iglesias and a “bridge year” in the definition that most people in baseball use it as. The poster said it as if 2010 was a year the Sox weren’t planning on competing. With a brand new deal handed out to Beckett and Lackey along with Lester, Dice-K, Buchholz, Youks, Pedroia, Beltre, VMart, Vtek, Cameron, Drew, Cameron, Lowell, Beltra, Paps I’m not sure how anyone can dismiss 2010 as a year they weren’t going for it.
I think the Sox have some good players on the farm, but their free agent moves will be the ones that win championships. In the end , it all comes down to pitching. The Sox baggage this year was sub par performances by Lackey,Beckett, Dice-K, and some in the pen. The Yanks have Burnett, Marte,Vasquez, and Chamberlain. Name me 10 pitchers who have had 5 good years in row, and I want them. Pitching wins!
By and large, most pitchers who have pitched five good years in a row are going to be in their low thirties and signing them to a free agent deal is going to be a risk. You have your exceptions, but those guys are usually locked up when they’re young.
I can’t think of ten but let’s start with Doc Halliday.
By and large, most pitchers who have pitched five good years in a row are going to be in their low thirties and signing them to a free agent deal is going to be a risk. You have your exceptions, but those guys are usually locked up when they’re young.
I think the Sox have some good players on the farm, but their free agent moves will be the ones that win championships. In the end , it all comes down to pitching. The Sox baggage this year was sub par performances by Lackey,Beckett, Dice-K, and some in the pen. The Yanks have Burnett, Marte,Vasquez, and Chamberlain. Name me 10 pitchers who have had 5 good years in row, and I want them. Pitching wins!
Surprise, surprise…..
Theo signs manager, Tito Francona’s starting catcher in the 2008 All-Star game….
Dioner Navarro (of late a Tampa Bay Ray until he didn’t make the team’s playoff roster)
Navarro will be Saltalmaccia’s backup.
watch….
Lol, why the hell would the Red Sox make a run at Cliff Lee?
are you scare?