The Red Sox have long admired Dodgers catcher Russell Martin, notes Michael Silverman of the Boston Herald. With tonight's non-tender deadline less than eleven hours away, there appear to be three possibilities for Martin:
- The Dodgers could re-sign him at a minimum of $4.04MM.
- The Dodgers could trade him.
- The Dodgers could non-tender him and get no return.
Technically the Dodgers could tender Martin a contract and trade him later, but they might seek a quicker resolution and more certainty. Sometimes the non-tender threat can kill a player's trade market, but in other cases it compels a suitor to make a move before the player hits the open market. If the Red Sox would be willing to meet Martin's salary demands and the Dodgers aren't, a deal would be mutually beneficial. Other clubs may have interest too. What's your take?
I’ve been saying for about a week now, if not resign him make a Martin for Ellsbury trade work
well right now ellsbury is more valuable to the red sox than martin is to the dodgers, and the red sox probably know that.my guess is that, maybe a few prospects for martin? reddick + pitching prospect?
Or maybe Martin plus prospects for Ellsbury, either way could work I think.
If they trade Ellsbury I feel like it would be in a deal that would bring them more of a superstar. You trade Ellsbury for Martin and you trade away a focal point of a possible Upton or A-Gon trade.
Agreed, there’s no way the Dodgers get an All-Star caliber player in return for Martin….they’ll be lucky to get anything in return – he’s overpaid by at least 3 million a year.
I have no idea why the Dodger fan above thinks Ellsbury is even in the conversation…the logic on this message board is very perplexing…LOL.
Right now the only thing that Martin is worth is Jamie Mccourt. I know what the dodgers are bond to do! Trade Martin and Jamie Mccourt to the sox for…… Theo “Einsetein” WIfe. Horray everyone is happy, and mabye, just mabye Frank Mccourt can find a women with deep pockets. With just enough money TO WIN A SERIES.
Not necessarily. I think they pull what they did with Theriot and the small SS market, trade him to a team that wants to make sure they get him. Plus, Ellsbury reportedly wants out of Boston. So taking all this into consideration, small catching market, Ellsbury not happy, and Bostons need for a catcher, this could work out really well for both teams
Boston would just stick with Saltalamacchia behind the plate and keep Ellsbury. He never actually said he wanted out of Boston, anyone saying he does is making an assumption. He expressed frustrations with the way his injury was handled (and rightly so) but has never said he wanted out, and even if he did the Red Sox wouldn’t trade him for something near half of his worth just because he wants out, that’s not smart business and Theo doesn’t operate that way. There is talk of him being non-tendered, he isn’t worth Ellsbury by himself.
I don’t think any currently employed GM operates that way. I really can’t think of a currently employed GM who’d trade Ellsbury for a non-tender candidate. If you’re going to trade for a non-tender candidate, it’s spare parts or a long shot prospect, nothing more.
Absolutely, I only said Theo because he is the GM who applies in this scenario, but you are absolutely right.
I think Ned Colleti operates that way. He just loves to trade prospects for old guys. And HE loves to sign saggy balled free agents (cough,cough…schmiddtttt,cough…..Piereeee.)
Sorry bud. I think Reddick + pitching is still an overpayment for Martin, and you somehow think Ellsbury will be part of it.
I think people are overestimating Boston’s “need” for a catcher, anyway. They’re clearly planning to replace V-Marts bat through other positions, like through upgrading the outfield and corner positions. And besides, the Yanks made it to the playoffs with Posada; the Rangers with Molina, the Rays with Shoppach half the time. I think the Red Sox can afford to take a gamble with Salty at catcher, with a trusted backup just in case, like Olivo or Varitek. And with the depth of moderate catching talent in their farm system, they’ve got a good number of young guys to try out there. I sure hope Boston realizes this, and doesn’t trade for a guy with an attitude and steadily declining offensive numbers.
I agree with everything you said about Martin except the attitude part. Where did that come from?
I agree with everything you said about Martin except the attitude part. Where did that come from?
Dude your clearly dreaming if you think there is any shot at the Dodgers getting Ellsbury for Martin.
The guys a non tender candidate.
For instance, So it Okajima for the Sox.. The Dodgers need help in the pen.. can we get Matt Kemp for Okajima? Probably not…
I’m sometimes dream about what my team might do; but your being ridiculous. The guy was the leadoff hitter on a playoff team in 2009. He hit .300 with 70 steals that year. Last year was supposed to be a complete blowout year for him but he couldn’t stay on the field. The sox have the money for Martin, the Dodgers have spent quite a bit this offseason already and are looking to dump him. your dreaming..
What might be possible is something along the lines of
Okajima and a class A or AA position player for Martin and a couple million bucks… that’s where his value is right now. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
I understand your thought process but suggesting Martin + for Ellsbury is nowhere close to the same as Okajima for Kemp.
I agree… I know it’s not the same thing, i was using it more to get my point across than as a perfect example.
That being said, I personally like Martin for the Sox. If they can get him for the right return they will have control of the player for two full seasons. Even last years injury plagued season and his offensive numbers heading in the wrong direction year after year he is still a 2 to 3 WAR player. His OBP is consistantly 100 points higher than his Batting AVG. which shows that he works the count (which the sox love). He’s going to throw out between 30 and 40 percent of the runners while playing an OK defensive catcher (on this point you will have to forgive me as on the east coast we don’t get too many dodger games, so i can’t watch him play, but the stats suggest he is at least OK Defensively) He’s 28 years. Jarrod Saltalamacchia (that’s prob not even close to the right spelling) is not a great option to go into the season as your starting catcher.
I’ll take Russell Martin over Salty as the starter. But the Sox just can’t give up anything valuable for the guy. It would be too risky.
While, as I’ve exhibited below, I’d be on board for Martin, I’d give the bulk of catching duties to Salty. He’s younger and has more time under team control. He needs MLB at bats and with the mileage on Martin, I’d rather him get liberal time off to keep him fresh.
I agree… I know it’s not the same thing, i was using it more to get my point across than as a perfect example.
That being said, I personally like Martin for the Sox. If they can get him for the right return they will have control of the player for two full seasons. Even last years injury plagued season and his offensive numbers heading in the wrong direction year after year he is still a 2 to 3 WAR player. His OBP is consistantly 100 points higher than his Batting AVG. which shows that he works the count (which the sox love). He’s going to throw out between 30 and 40 percent of the runners while playing an OK defensive catcher (on this point you will have to forgive me as on the east coast we don’t get too many dodger games, so i can’t watch him play, but the stats suggest he is at least OK Defensively) He’s 28 years. Jarrod Saltalamacchia (that’s prob not even close to the right spelling) is not a great option to go into the season as your starting catcher.
I’ll take Russell Martin over Salty as the starter. But the Sox just can’t give up anything valuable for the guy. It would be too risky.
You wont read this because this thread is old, so I will have to repeat it again when the time is right, but Ellsbury never stated he wanted out of Boston, he was mad at the medical staff for misdiagnosing him and cost him his whole season, it wasnt the team, and the team took care of it and Ellsbury is all good, now Papelbon is a different case, he doesnt like how he never got a multi year deal.
Right now the only thing that Martin is worth is Jamie Mccourt. I know what the dodgers are bond to do! Trade Martin and Jamie Mccourt to the sox for…… Theo “Einsetein” WIfe. Horray everyone is happy, and mabye, just mabye Frank Mccourt can find a women with deep pockets. With just enough money TO WIN A SERIES.
what about something along the lines of martin and loney for Lars anderson, and josh reddick?
What use would the Sox have for a first baseman who can’t seem to top an OPS of .800 as a full time player? We would legitimately be just as well off sticking with Lowrie at third and hoping for the best.
what about something along the lines of martin and loney for Lars anderson, and josh reddick?
Martin + ? for Ellsbury, please.
That’d improve the Dodgers OF defense considerably (Kemp to RF, Ethier to LF) and give them a leadoff hitter… which they largely lack considering Furcal’s decline in speed.
Then sign Olivo, and upgrade at 1B (Lee, LaRoche, Pena, Berkman?) or 3B (Lopez? Wigginton?) and platoon Loney and Blake at 1B.
I would like nothing more as a Padres fan than the Dodgers to simply waive bye-bye to this guy and get nothing in return but they can’t be that stupid.
Don’t be so sure… We are talking about Ned Colletti here…
As bad as Martin has been recently the Dodgers have no one better to take his position. For this reason alone they will keep him.
what about Carlos Santana oh wait you have Casey Blake instead, i bet Ned kicking himself for that one
That one hurts, Fred. 🙁
-A Ned Colletti hater
Good one. I don’t think anyone has ever come up with that one before.
If he is traded on the non-tender deadline it will be for a middle reliever or a long shot prospect. It won’t be for Ellsbury. Again, if he is traded I personally would be shocked if it is for anyone in the top 15 of the RS prospect lits. If they are offering him in a trade that means they don’t want him, whether it be due to the BROKEN HIP or statistical decline. Don’t expect much
It wouldn’t be a straight up trade, the Dodgers would clearly have to include prospects and/or salary relief.
And why would the Red Sox deal their leadoff hitter for prospects or salary relief? The Red Sox don’t need salary relief, and while they could get prospects to flip in a bigger deal, they have no such deal lined up. Even if they sign a Crawford or Werth, they’ll still need a CF. The only way Ellsbury gets dealt is part of a package for an Upton or Rasmus.
I doubt they give Martin away after singling him out in Ned’s off season checklist. Could always see him tendered and then traded later.
Martin for Ellsbury is not a fair trade Dodgers fans….keep dreaming.
Will u take Jamie Mccourt for Ellsbury….huh… NOW were talking…. How bout we throw in… how does Ned Colleti Sound…. huh…. Lets make this happen man!
As a Boston fan I’d be horrified to see a Martin/Ellsbury trade. I’m not sure I want him just for the price of 4 million, let alone giving up an upcoming star like Ellsbury. Martin has steadily declined every year, is nothing to write home about behind the plate, and is kind of a grump. I’d rather tough it out with Salty+backup and let some other younger guys get their shot (Lavarnway, I’m looking at you) then bring in a player like Russell Martin.
Uhhh Lavarnway is no where near ready…in fact the large majority of prospect sites don’t think he’ll ever become even a slightly below average major league catcher. The Red Sox have no “younger guys” capable of playing meaningful time behind the plate in 2011. The Red Sox should trade for Martin, but no one like Ellsbury. Maybe a Josh Reddick…a guy who was once a high prospect, a plus defender with a great arm and high power potential but a poor approach that doesn’t fit the Red Sox. A Reddick for Martin swap is more than fair for both sides.
The sox don’t really have any catching prospects that I’m particularly excited about. Let alone anyone close to being ML ready.
While I wont say that I am particularly excited about him I am entrigued by Ibarra, the Cuban defector catcher they signed last season, and can’t wait to see what he is really capable of in pro-ball.
While I wont say that I am particularly excited about him I am entrigued by Ibarra, the Cuban defector catcher they signed last season, and can’t wait to see what he is really capable of in pro-ball.
Actually, we have Luis Exposito, who had an excellent offensive year at AA Portland, and made some progress defensively. No one is wild about him, but he certainly seems to have the tools to get there circa 2012. The Sox even added him to the 40-man to protect him from the Rule 5 this year.
He has an above average bat, but has struggled some behind the plate. If he can get time with Gary Tuck in the offseason and improve alot on D, then he’d be a real candidate for us.
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Again where is the idea of Martin being a grump or having an attitude coming from? I’ve watched about every game since he’s been up and never really noticed anything and vie never come across it in articles.
I dunno, I guess its my personal opinion. And thanks for noting it, I probably shouldn’t mention that as a complaint if there’s no proof for it other than my own feelings about it 😛 He’s just always scowling, and the couple LAD games I saw this year, he looked really lost at the plate, and seemed to be having a lot of trouble controlling his emotions over it. But that may have just been an isolated incident. To me, he seems perpetually unhappy, and with some of the very emotional guys on the Red Sox right now, it doesn’t seem like a great fit.
I just mentioned Lavarnway because he recently had a pretty underrated year at the plate. I don’t really know much about him, and I know that most people have low expectations for him, I just meant that if he made more big strides like he’s done a bit of recently, he could out-perform those expectations. And I didn’t mean to insinuate we had a bunch of MLB-ready guys, I just meant that with Lavarnway, Exposito, Wagner, Federowicz, and Ibarra, we’ve got a collection of guys who all have relatively modest projections but all have the possibility of breaking out into at least a slightly above league-average catcher. And with the strength the Red Sox have (hopefully will be improving as well) across the rest of the field, that’s all they really need at catcher. I just meant that they shouldn’t try to stretch and get someone who’s a little better than what one of these guys might become, but who also has decline risks/higher salary, when they could be spending those resources improving the bullpen, signing a free agent outfielder, trading for a 1B, etc. Catcher is one position they can let go to a young guy or two, to see if someone meets the challenge. And with the plethora of young guys to -give a chance- to, if not in 2011 definitely in 2012, I think that’s the best course of action.
Just a quick, not really similar example. Pedroia was getting some rave reviews for his minor league play when he came up to Boston, but he was still rated quite low because of his size, and because his game still had a lot of rough edges. And he struggled for a while in Boston when he was first promoted. But without giving a prospect a chance at 2B, and if we had traded for a stopgap, a Russell Martin for 2B kind of player, Pedroia would have been stuck and who knows, maybe traded. Not saying its the same situation really, no catcher in the system has raw talent like he did, nor has really impressed like he did in the minors, but the basic idea of sometimes letting the young player grow is applicable, I think.
Who’d trade any decent assets for him when they can sign him after he’s non-tendered?
As I mentioned in the post, teams that would prefer to just get him and tender him than compete with everyone to sign him. Not sure if you consider Blake Hawksworth a decent asset, but the Cardinals chose to send him for Theriot rather than wait for a NT.
Yes, but Theriot is not injured, so his value is known.
Non candidate Martin for Ellsbury? How is it Red Sox fans get shellacked on this board when they bring up questionable trade scenarios, and this guy runs free spewing verbal diarrhea over the rest of us?
Maybe I got here too soon and the whopping sticks will becoming out shortly ;-D
I think by “make a trade work” he is speculation other pieces. Either way Martin can not be the centerpiece of that trade, he would be a thrown in.
But why do you call it a Martin for Ellsbury trade? It’s as if Martin as any trade value. Who else would the Dodgers offer?
Edit: I didn’t mean to sound harsh, I do agree with you. 😛 I am just curious what you think the trade might look like.
I really do not know, because I don’t think LAD needs another avg arm for the pen. I doubt Boston wants to give up anything they could use to go after Gonzalez later in the year.
I’ll go off the board and vote for Option Four:
Dodgers non-tender him, but resign him to a lower base with incentives. Win-Win
Seems to be the likely scenario.
If he was willing to take a lower base with incentives, he would’ve accepted that by now. The basic point of non-tendering him is that the Dodgers basically have the choice of either:
A. Going to arbitration with him should they tender him a contract. You can’t take more than a 20% pay cut in arbitration, so he’s guaranteed at least four million next year if that is the route they go.
B. Work out another amount should they tender him a contract. The closest thing to your idea.
C. Non-tender him. They get nothing back for him, but they’re also not on the hook for at least $4 million.
They could TECHNICALLY do what you suggest, but what would really be the point? If they figured they could work out a paycut, I have to assume they’d have done that by now or would just offer him a contract and handle it in the time before arbitration cases.
I don’t think the MLBPA would let a player take a significantly lower pay no matter what incentives were included as part of the deal. It would be bad for every other player out there.
If they don’t non-tender, that can only drop his base to $4.04mil (80% of his previous salary, per collective bargaining agreement). If they non-tender, they can go much lower, with lots of incentives. For all we know, there may already be a gentleman’s agreement in place to do exactly that.
My reply was in response to “If he was willing to take a lower base with incentives, he would’ve accepted that by now.”, which could not happen.
Yeah, so was mine… your comment hadn’t shown up yet (I guess I took my sweet time reading through)
My bad, I thought your reply was to me.
This is exactly what I’ve been saying all along. I really don’t understand these trade scenarios. As a player coming off an injury (and a weird one at that), he’s currently got no significant trade value, let alone for a veteran who can take his place. If the Dodgers don’t offer him a contract, and they understand his condition as well as anyone, then why would any other team do so?
Updside potential. I stand by what i said earlier, I wouldn’t give up anything of even remote potential value for him from a personnel standpoint, but cash? For a large market team, $4 million for a young catcher with a career OBP hovering around .350 even in his worst year? In this catching market? You bet I’d be all over that.
While I think the Red Sox catching dilemma is greatly exaggerated (Yes, it’s a step back from Martinez right now, but I do think we’ll manage fine), I’d be first on board to take a flyer on the guy. He’s under thirty and not eligible for free agency for another two years. If he rebounds (And hey, he’s a right hander and it’s Fenway, it COULD happen), neat! If he continues to decline, non-tender him next year.
I would love a nice young plattoon of Salty and Martin. Just ride the hot hand and see what develops. He’s got a lot of mileage on his body already, but he was a top tier catcher recently enough that I’d be willing to throw some money at him to try him out. The risk is too high for me to be willing to part with a player of even marginal value for him, but if he were non-tendered, I’d be standing outside of Epstein’s office window for the next week pestering him to sign the kid.
Like I said, he currently has no real trade value. That’s my main point, and why I wonder what’s the basis for talking about him as a trade candidate, since the Dodgers are likely to get nothing for him. As for offering him a contract, he’s no more of a risk and not worth less to the Dodgers in that scenario than to any other team. Given that the Dodgers probably have the best handle on his health situation, if they haven’t tendered him a contract, or non-tendered and then immediately signed him to a new contract, then I think any other team is going to be extremely wary.
Martin’s a non-tender candidate coming off a major hip injury playing about the most physically demanding fielding position. I won’t lie, I love his upside potential, but straight up for Ellsbury? Fat chance, folks. Not with him being a non-tender candidate.
I’d take a flyer on Martin if he were non-tendered or give up spare parts for him as a reclamation project (That consistently solid on base ability is tantalizing), but I wouldn’t give anything of value up for him this close to major injury.
If the Dodgers wanted Ellsbury, Martin would be a very minor piece in the deal.
I don’t think anyone is saying the deal would be straight up.
That seems to be bleedDODGERblue’s line of thought.
Really? Thats why I said “make a Martin for Ellsbury trade WORK”?? I didnt say trade Martin for Ellsbury, if thats what I meant I could have saved myself some words..
I say he’s either traded to the Red Sox, or non-tendered and re-signed by the Dodgers.
This bum would do himself good to move so he doesn’t have to live in the shadow of posey for his entire career being boo’d at and spit on by beach ball bouncing dodgers fans for being the scrub he is.
Buster Posey has half of a great season under his name. Give him 4 years catching, especially at the rate of Martin (most of any player in baseball) and see how he fares then…
I agree, except it would take a real silly head to put ANYONE behind the plate as often as Martin was.I’m looking at you, Ned and Joe. You destroyed him.
Wow, several uncalled for things in one comment. Uh, kudos?
I say he will be tendered, traded, or non-tendered, or a new contract will be worked out.
Is there any other options?
Fire him out of a cannon into the Pacific? That’s technically an option, I suppose, though I can’t speak for the viability of it.
Pretty sure that was the point.
if he can get his BA back up he will be ok. he’s a 27 year old catcher with 2 all star appearances, a gold glove, a silver slugger award, and great success working with pitchers.
compare his early career to a guy like posada or varitek and he’s pretty much on par.
i think the right ballpark and the right lineup could do a lot for him – throw him in the AL where he can DH occasionally and it’ll be even better.
Martin for Ellsbury isn’t going to happen, but maybe Martin & prospect for Ellsbury works – especially if Boston is going for Werth or Crawford…
Russell Martin’s bat isn’t nearly good enough to DH…ever. I like the guy but cmon, his value is solely upon being a catcher. And there is no chance Martin and Ellsbury should be discussed.
He’s always had a very respectable OBP. If he’s good at anything at the plate, it is drawing the walk.
That’s not exactly what you look for in a DH though.
Bard makes more sense as a target to me, for Martin + Broxton to clear salary for LA. However, Broxtons value is also low so Boston would really have to feel a bounce back is likely.
The Red Sox aren’t trading Bard.
I doubt they would too, I was just saying he would make more sense as a target.
If the Red Sox believe they are going to contend in 2011, and there is no reason to think they wouldn’t, that’s a deal they should seriously consider.
Despite his mediocre 2nd half, Broxton had been one of the best closers in baseball from 2006 up until that point (2.11 ERA at the All-Star break last season).
Bard is younger, less expensive and can do as good a job as Broxton.
Obviously, but the deal would also include Martin.
The Red Sox already have one of the best closers in the game since 2006 (Papelbon) and another guy who projects to also be very, very good and is young (Bard). They certainly don’t need Broxton to compete, and it would make little sense to trade Bard now, esspecially for another relief pitcher. It would make a lot more sense just to keep what they have.
Martin would be part of the deal, too…?
Martin is a potential non-tender candidate and has little value at this point so he wouldn’t add enough to make the trade worth it to the Sox.
The Red Sox already have one of the best closers in the game since 2006 (Papelbon) and another guy who projects to also be very, very good and is young (Bard). They certainly don’t need Broxton to compete, and it would make little sense to trade Bard now, esspecially for another relief pitcher. It would make a lot more sense just to keep what they have.
Who wouldn’t want Bard? literally every team should want a guy like Bard. But I think he is right up with Pedroia and Lester as untouchables on this team.
If you think Bard who made under a half mil, for Martin and Broxton your soft. Martin is a non-tender candidate (sign him if/when he’s non-tendered) and Broxton while I think will have a better year is not worth someone like Bard who has no injury history and looks to succeed Papelbon as the closer of the Boston Red Sox.
Ain’t gonna happen, but I do see your train of thought there. And you’re right, if Boston were to give up some good young talent for Martin, whatever the reason….Bard would probably go before Ellsbury
Ellsbury to LA? Why is this even coming up? LA has a CF. needs a LF with POWER if anything in the outfield.
I agree it’s not very likely, but I think the idea is that Kemp might be better in RF and Ethier should be a LF, so that’s how it could help. Still I don’t see that making much sense for either side.
I do think the Dodgers will find a way to bring Martin back, but it is slightly risky to tender him given his injury recovery. Still, given the options out there being weak relatively and the odds are he’ll be fine next year since he didn’t tear a labrum, I see him coming back to LA.
The Dodgers have power in the OF with Kemp and Ethier. Where they lack power is in the IF.
Kemp had a poor season defensively and that is likely to continue as his speed declines. Ethier was never that good defensively. Moving Kemp to RF and Ethier to LF with Ellsbury in CF boosts the Dodgers OF defense considerably.
The Dodgers also lack a leadoff man. Furcal isn’t capable of running like he used to.
So, he does suit the Dodgers needs fairly well. The Dodgers can then focus on 1B or 2B/3B for their offensive boost (Uribe can play either position). If they upgrade at 2B or 3B, they can platoon Loney and Blake at 1B.
Dodgers have a power LF in Ethier, we need a CF
Unless you are Don Mattingly, I understand Ethier is the the rightfielder…
As a Dodger fan living on the east coast I do not want to see Ellsbury in Dodger blue. He is soft. we need another bat in the outfield. Ellsbury world do well defensively in center but he is brittle and brings nothing to the table offensively, Trust me on this. There are way better options for the Dodgers than this. I do think Martin needs to go but only if it benefits the club. Lets not just let him go for nothing in return.
As a Dodger fan living on the east coast I do not want to see Ellsbury in Dodger blue. He is soft. we need another bat in the outfield. Ellsbury world do well defensively in center but he is brittle and brings nothing to the table offensively, Trust me on this. There are way better options for the Dodgers than this. I do think Martin needs to go but only if it benefits the club. Lets not just let him go for nothing in return.
Why should we “trust you on this”? Ellsbury hits over .300 OBP’s at 3.55 and steals 70 bases and offers nothing offensively, yeah I trust you.
Oh and he’s soft because he has been injured exactly once since being called up and it was in a freak accident with a line backer (Beltre) and broke four ribs?
The Redsox have been waiting on on this guy for years now. This injury is not the first injury to keep him out of the lineup. Not sure what perspective you are coming from. I’m just speaking as a Dodger fan and I don’t want to trade our catcher for this guy. Yes he steals bases but that’s it. The Dodgers have much greater needs.
Since he has been in the majors he has only spent time on the disabled list because of the rib injury, aside from that he has never missed more than a couple of games at a time because of injuries (believe it or not people around here actually talked about his willingness to play hurt before the rib injury). I can understand not wanting to trade your catcher, but your catcher’s value is very low right now and he isnt nearly worth Ellsbury (who would bring considerably more value to the dodgers). Also – saying you don’t want the trade to happen is one thing, but saying that Ellsbury has no offensive value and is brittle simply because you don’t want him doesn’t make it true.
You are obviously a Redsox fan. In my opinion and it’s only my opinion Ellsbury is a soft player. Believe me I know Martin is on the decline. He has caught way to much over the past 4 seasons. If the Redsox thought Ellsbury was there answer they would not have brought in the 50 year old Mike Cameron last year as insurance. Other than stolen bases he has no value. What else can you say he gives a team? HR’s? RBI’s? great defense? durability? the answer is no to all. Trading for him would not improve the Dodgers. They just let Podsednik walk why would they then bring in Ellsbury? They can keep Martin and bring back Podsednik if that’s the case.
I am a Red Sox fan but I fail to see how that applies here. Your opinion of Ellsbury being “soft” doesn’t trump the facts or his injury record. They actually were adamant about Ellsbury being the CF of the future for the Sox but they picked up Cameron because he was the best stopgap available to get them to this offseason and they didn’t have anyone in-house ready. Cameron also happened to be the better defender in CF so it only made sense to play him in center.
Ellsbury also gets a bad rap for his defense, in his two full seasons in center he has put up UZR/150’s of 14.5 and -10.0 so which one do you want to use as the “real” Ellsbury?
It’s only your opinion, which means nothing. You obviously haven’t seen Ells run into walls making great catches and putting himself on the line every game he plays. Soft? you mean Matt Kemp, and pretty much the whole Dodger organization.
Seems like you are taking this personal. You don’t have to agree…that’s fine. I’ve seen Ellsbury plenty over the last bunch of years and buddy….he’s soft. I wouldn’t be suprised if he’s not the starting center fielder in Boston by the end of the season. You can say what you want about the Dodger organization…they are a mess but this conversation really has nothing to do with that. Outside of Boston Ellsbury is not looked at as a great player….Not even close. I’m not sure how Matt Kemp got into this…it was about Martin and Ellsbury.
agreed joey, ellsbury reminds me alot of podsednik but younger. Sox fans are just thinking more highly of their own players, ellsbury is a career .290 hitter with a slug% of barely above .400 but can definately steal bases but nothing more than a pods which the dodgers have I believe…the best thing for the dodgers is to give Martin one more chance to turn it around he can run for a catcher and has a pretty good avg. n obp for his career no reason to sell low or be cheap and cut him loose with no replacement
Couldn’t agree more SKylander 14 I just made the same Podsednik comparison.
“Career .290 hitter” is a bit misleading at this point. He has had two full seasons in the majors and went from .280 in the first year to .301 in the second. So while you are technically correct I could just as easily say that he has improved his batting average by a considerable amount every year so far, but that would be equally as misleading. He also has a good deal more defensive value than Podsednik: Podsednik has put up a -7.6 UZR(-1.5 UZR/150) while Ells has put up a 15.1 UZR(6.9 UZR/150).
I do agree that the best thing for them to do would probably be to give him another chance, and it really doesn’t make sense to sell low on any player (unless you believe there is no chance for them to bounce back and they are costing a lot of money) so I don’t think a deal would really make sense from either point of view. I just think all the talk of Ellsbury being worthless is a bad way to make your point about the trade as the accusations are largely unfounded.
Trade Martin, Broxton and Loney for PRINCE FIELDER and pitcher right now!!!
FAIL.
I would think MIL would want cost-controllable prospects for Fielder and not a trio that will make upwards of $15 million next year and be close to free agency.
with no disrespect to Russell Martin and i am not a Dodgers fan. But there are better catchers right now avail . Look at Russell today not career wise when you think about that. He is very iffy about his injurys two sub par offensive seasons where he had pop now there is none. If i did not know better he was using juice that Manny had avail that was a secret. lol
A rules question for anyone who knows the answer: Can Martin talk with other teams while he’s still under contract to the Dodgers, or must he wait to be non-tendered? IOW, would he already know which teams might be interested in him as a free agent, and how much they might offer?
I don’t think Martin or his agent can talk with other teams until he is free agent. Of course that didn’t seem to bother Scott Boras with the whole JD Drew opt-out, so you never know.
Thanks, and especially for reminding us of the JD Drew situation. As I recall, the Dodgers considered but ultimately declined to file a grievance over that shuck-and-jive. I take this to mean that while the contract rules prohibit it, a player will probably know if other teams would be interested in him as a free agent through backchannel communications.
No he/agent can not talk with other teams while he is under contract unless given permission to do so.
I’m sure tomorrow “sources close to the Dodgers” will say there were a few scenarios for trading Martin… Who cares. Boston shouldn’t, and the Dodgers will not be losing much if they get rid of him. His defense is ok, not great, and his offense the last 3 years was not good either. I agree with many of you, why would Boston trade for him for anyone? Rod Barajas would be a better option at Catcher for either team.
I’m amazed at my fellow Red Sox compatriots and their unabashed love for Ellsbury. Let’s go on a little fact check.1. Ellsbury is not a leadoff hitter.Leadoff hitters need to do ONE thing at an elite level: Get on base. Ellsbury’s career high in OBP was .355, only 10-15 points above the league average. If your leadoff hitter isn’t at least making a run towards a .380-.400 OBP, he’s not a good leadoff hitter. Mentioning steals is also pretty ludicrous, as more often than not, steals at the top of your lineup are wasted when you have a solid group of hitters who all get on base following you. There’s no need for Ellsbury push to run when the next 3-4 hitters in the Red Sox lineup for the past 3 years are all elite at getting on base. When in his prime, this is why Derek Jeter was such an effective leadoff hitter. He got on base at a terrific rate, didn’t run into terrible outs at second just to obtain some lofty steal totals, and let the elite players behind him do their job.2. Ellsbury is, at best, an average defender.I can understand people who haven’t seen him play think he’s a good defender. He’s fast, right? However, speed is not the only thing you need to be a successful defender. Ellsbury possess some of the worst fly ball instincts, consistently looking like a lost puppy chasing a frisbee when tracking balls in center. He barely make any errors because his jumps are late and mistimed, and he speed can’t make up impossible range. Watch JD Drew play right field for how a player with amazing fielding instincts can excel with slightly above average mobility. Lack of errors do not make a good fielder, the occasional web gem on a wall does not make a good fielder. His inability to be able to leverage his elite speed and play as shallow as BJ Upton can and further reduce balls finding space is what makes him nothing more than an average center fielder. I didn’t even mention the lack of arm strength.Jacoby is simply miscast. He had 133 unbelievable at bats in 2007 that had all the pink hats screaming that he’s the next Fred Lynn(like any of them actually know who he is!). He’s not. He’s a speedster with mediocre plate discipline and below average fielding instincts. I’m amazed that those 133 at-bats in 2007 are somehow holding more weight in public opinion than the 1301 at-bats in 2008-2009 where he was simply an average player. Is it the steals that make people think he’s “elite”? Rajai Davis steals a ton of bases too, is he an elite player?Ellsbury is no more than a clone of Juan Pierre plus another 5-10 homeruns. He’s a 7 hitter. He belongs after your elite bats so you can abuse his speed on the basepaths in front of weaker hitters. Unless someone teaches him how to properly gauge fly balls, and he consistently keeps his batting average around 330+ to support his lack of walks, he’ll never be more than an average player.
1. .355 is not terrible for a leadoff hitter. It’s not something to write home about, but as you said it is still 10 to 15 points above the league average. And his OBP went up significantly from 2008 to 2009, .336 to .355. Now it may be unreasonable to assume it’ll just keep rising until he’s in the .380-.400 range, but I think it is reasonable to think it might continue to rise at least a little more. He’s still in the late stages of his development years, and this will only be his third full year in the majors. Maybe he gets it up to .365, .370? Then he’s a pretty good lead-off hitter.
2. I’ve seen many games where Ellsbury’s speed has played an important role, and its not just because of the steals total. He’s a disruption to the pitcher, and to the infielders. Because of him, the middle infielders cheat towards second base, opening more holes for Pedroia to poke his line drives into. And I understand your recommendation that he hit lower in the lineup, but I think he still is very useful as a leadoff hitter, and probably our best option at that slot. His speed may be overrated, but its not useless.
I agree with you, in parts. But I still think at his age, with his speed and bat, he is a very valuable player. Overrated? Possibly. But a young center fielder is not something you just want to get rid of. He adds an element to the game that otherwise Boston seriously lacks, and may possibly still have a “breakout season” waiting to happen. I’m just defending him on this post because he is still MUCH better than Martin, a MUCH more valuable commodity than Martin, and its nearly insulting to hear “Martin + prospect for Ellsbury?” when you’re trading a catcher with declining offensive skills for a young speedy outfielder who has -improved- offensively since he’s been here (I’m going from 08, not his 133 at-bats in 07). Just because he’s overrated doesn’t mean he should be ignored.
I agree with this A LOT. I would also add that in two full years in center he put up UZR/150’s of 14.5 and -10.0, so to say whether he is good or bad defensively at this point in his career you would have to decide which year was the “real” Ellsbury and you can’t do that based on anything other than opinion.
Thank you. I wasn’t sure how to go about the defensive argument, so your post helps fill that part out. 🙂
Be careful before quoting UZR/150 to support his good 2008. 2008 he was basically plit between all 3 outfield positions. UZR/150 needs more data in order to properly regress towards the mean.
In Fenway, his defensive worth is much better leveraged in LF, as the wall helps take away his lackluster ability to judge the ball hit directly at him.
If anything, his “real” ability lies in the middle somewhere, which is why I think it’s clearly obvious his fielding is no more than average.
1. His ability to work the count and take a base on balls(BB%) barely improved at all in 08 to 09, going up .4%. Most of his OBP improvement was thanks to an increased BABIP. This is something he should be able to continue (like Carl Crawford or Ichiro) as his speed should allow him to get to first base safely more often on balls in play than most players. I have to disagree, however, that .355 is “ok” for a leadoff hitter. With this organization’s ability to develop stars and acquire talent, that’s not an area that should be compromised for a developing player who has a current skill set that would hamper that lineup position.2. His speed is definitely not useless, but again, I don’t think there’s a need to have him lead off yet when he’s clearly not an effective option, simply because he’s got some wheels. Having him 7th to take some heat off of the black holes we had at SS (and C when Varitek was playing) would have been an simple, but positive change. His speed is definitely not helping him in the field, and while I’m as much as a proponent of UZR as the next guy, I don’t think you need it to see him struggle with his positioning, anticipation, and instincts in the field.While my criticisms are harsh, I don’t think it’s anywhere near the rampant love fest he’s received due to that one month in 2007. Like you, I think right now, he’s clearly overrated, and unless he changes his approach, really isn’t going to offer much more than a Juan Pierre type of a player.Is he anywhere close to a fair deal for Martin? Absolutely not. I hope that wasn’t what you perceived by my post. I have seen others before on this site, rumors about Justin Upton where “no way we could give Ellsbury up!” and that just seems ludicrous to me.Does he have potential? Yes. But is he really a 5* can’t miss prospect/young player with a really high ceiling? There’s just not enough proof yet, and he’s already 27. he’s simply miscast, and I don’t think realism is setting in on what his actual ceiling could be. I’m not even sure the organization ever looked at him as “untouchable” the way they’ve viewed Lester, Westmoreland, Kelly, and Buchholz.As always, I hope he proves me wrong (because right now, he’s ours!) but I’m mostly hoping for a hot start to 2011 to get his trade value up, and hopefully have that leveraged into something the club needs, especially since the club has many similar players (Kalish, Reddick, Beltran, Lin, Westmoreland) with similar or better skillsets, and age on their side as well.(Incidentally, Kalish is the prospect they need to give time in the majors, and I think he’d be everything Ellsbury is, except he also has 20 HR power, a great arm, can take a walk and has excellent abilities in the field.)
kenny please please please trade for him or offer him a contract right after he is non tendered
NEVERMIND Red Sox just resigned Varitek
Martin for Salty.
I’ve always admired Russell’s gamer/gritty personality. For a moment it seemed like we had the 2nd best catcher in baseball behind Joe Mauer. Despite his drastic decline over the last two seasons, I don’t think I want to see a player who truly wants to win, leave for absolutely nothing. Take your time with this Ned.
Trade Martin to Chicago for Gordon Beckham… Move Uribe to 3B… Sign Torrealba or Pierzynski… Trade Loney/Hawksworth to Tampa for Upton… Sell the McCourts Mansions for the money to pursue Pena… (I know… I ran outta money to fund this wild idea)
Furcal
Upton
Kemp
Pena
Either
Uribe
Beckham
Pierzynski / Torrealba
Not a bad lineup… But we can file it under “Wishfull Thinking”
P.S. What ever happened to Jermaine Dye? Last I read some NL teams were kicking the tires on him… Why not throw him in RF, Either in LF???
Dye’s defense is bad, only valuable as a DH.
Beckham’s value completely eclipses Martin’s or Ellsbury’s. Beckham is under club control for 3-4 more seasons, Ellsbury only 2. But still, both are way out of range for Martin, and the chance a trade gets work out for one of them is 0% (read: absolutely not going to happen). Martin’s value is low, they’ll be lucky to get a couple cheap players with some chance of making the lineup. There’s now way they’re getting an everyday player in return.
Torrealba signed already, but I like general idea. I think we’d have to forget about the Upton element, but Blake and Gibbons would be fine in LF if we could get Konerko, LaRoche, Pena or Lee for 1B.
You can stick a fork in Martin. He’s done. He started declining before having a hip injury. Unless he goes to the American League as a back up DH, he’s through.
WHY THE HELL ARE YOU FAGZ KEEP TALKING ABOUT TRADING MARTIN FOR PATHETIC AZZ ELLSBURY! CLEARLY YOU GUYS DONT KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT THAT GUY ISNT EVEN ON THE DODGER RADAR AND THE DODGERS WOULD NEVER PLAY A LOW END PLAYER LIKE HIM ON THE ROSTER!LOL WERE IN THE MARKET FOR A ALL-STAR LEFT FIELDER THAT HAS EARN THE RIGHT TO WEAR DODGER BLUE!! LIKE JHONNY DAMON OR EVEN CARL CRAWFORD YOU JUST NEVER KNOW WITH A GM LIKE NED COLLETTI!! HAHA