WEDNESDAY, 10:55am: Gio Gonzalez trade talks haven't really started, reports ESPN's Buster Olney, who notes that the A's did not ask for Logan Morrison in brief check-in talks with the Marlins.
TUESDAY, 8:54am: The Marlins have pursued trades and free agents aggressively so far this offseason. Most recently, Gio Gonzalez has emerged as a possible trade target for the team. Here are the details on the Marlins’ offseason, via Clark Spencer of the Miami Herald:
- The A’s have demanded a package containing Logan Morrison or Mike Stanton for Gonzalez and the Marlins “flatly rejected” the possibility.
- C.J. Wilson will visit the Marlins after Thanksgiving. The free agent left-hander met with the Angels last night and has more visits scheduled.
So in other words Gio probably isn’t going anywhere
IF they wanted morrison or stanton, i could see the Dodgers offering Andre Ethier since they have been looking for cheap pitching. Also the A’s have coveted Ethier ever since they trade him away…
But isn’t Ethier expensive and about to get even more expensive, so how does that work for the A’s?
Good point. I think it depends if they relocate or not. I don’t see them trading anyone until they get a definitive answer on the move.
“I think it depends if they relocate or not”
Oh, it will happen. The Giants can whine all they want, but it’s a lost battle for them. We’ll leave this discussion for another time, but the A’s are in sell mode right now and they are positioned to get lots of young talent in return. Bailey, Gio, Cahil, Suzuki (who I think the Red Sox should be all over) as well as others could be on the move. Dallas Bradden could also be moved too.
The Giants whine? Oh please. All I hear is moaning and crying from A’s fans about this.
It was the Giants, BTW, who ceded the rights to the East Bay (Oakland) in the first place so that the A’s could even move to the Bay Area in 1968.
There is so much misconception that somehow the Giants are being mean to the A’s about giving up the rights to SJ. The reason the Giants can’t just give up San Jose is that the bonds that the Giants took out to build AT&T Park are contingent on owning the rights to San Jose. In other words, if the Giants gave up San Jose and then defaulted on the bonds, they would be criminally liable.
That being said, hey, I want the A’s in San Jose. But MLB has to put some safeguards in place. (See what the Expos/Nationals had to guarantee the Orioles as far as attendance goes.)
Well you must be reading in different places than some of the rest of us. The most ignorant whiners are Giants fans, who seem to think the A’s shouldn’t be able to move to SJ because the Giants are somehow superior to the A’s.
No one is suggesting that the Giants don’t get compensated somehow. I doubt it would include a media deal, as CSN is already in place. They could pay a few million towards the Giants bonds, insure the Giants would sell for a certain price, etc.
Blanket statements like Giants fans are “ignorant whiners” just puts up walls.
The A’s have never been embraced in the Bay Area. It’s just how it is. And A’s fans hate it. The team won 3 STRAIGHT World Series, and barely broke a million in attendance one of those years. Oakland is a city with intractable problems. And it allowed Al Davis to ruin the Colosseum. The A’s need to leave.
If San Jose is the place, then Bud Selig needs to broker the deal. The Giants draw fans (attendance and media) from the Peninsula and Santa Clara County. Putting the A’s in SJ hurts Giants. (I think, not too much. But some.) There is no reason (from the Giants POV) just to give the territory to the A’s. However, it IS in MLB’s best interest. So, they need to step in and do what’s best for everyone.
Blanket statements? Nowhere did I say that if you’re a Giants fan, you’re an ignorant whiner. All I said is that from where I’ve been reading, the biggest ones seem to be Giants fans.
It’s true that the Giants fans have overall drawn more fans, but it’s only become such a big gap since the Giants’ new stadium opened. The A’s drew more almost every single year in the 80’s and early 90’s but both teams had low attendance in the 70’s and late 90’s.
The A’s do not have the support that the Giants have in the Bay Area. Not even close. We can measure that in attendance. We can measure it by response to the Giants winning 1 WS, vs. the lack of response to the A’s winning 4 WS (including in ’89 over the Giants). Or TV revenue. It doesn’t matter. The simple fact is that the A’s are not supported to anywhere near the level the Giants are.
I like the A’s. They have a ton of history and I want them to succeed. Would a new stadium in Oakland (say the Jack London Square location) make the A’s successful? Maybe. I don’t think the A’s can ever be successful in Oakland.
My whole point in commenting in this thread is to address ignorant attacks on the Giants for not simply relinquishing rights to San Jose. There is a reason they hold the rights. There is way for MLB to broker a deal. This is the way it must be, because surrendering those rights would result in a $$$ loss to the Giants. And nobody just hands over money, just because.
My point is that I haven’t read any comment suggesting that the Giants shouldn’t get some kind of compensation, as I stated in my first reply to you.
From your first reply:
“The most ignorant whiners are Giants fans, who seem to think the A’s
shouldn’t be able to move to SJ because the Giants are somehow superior
to the A’s.”
Somehow, that sounded like your point. Inflamed, derogatory crap. My bad for encouraging you.
How about the Giants give them back to the A’s because they A’s gave them to the Giants because they were in the exact same position the A’s are in now?
Nope, you guys need the money so you can keep giving worthless albatross contracts away, hows Barry Zito & Aaron Rowand doing these days anyway?
Hey, since we’re asking questions Petey, how’s talk of contracting the A’s hitting you?
If you want to roll around in the slop, that’s fine by me. Next time you’re out at an A’s game, take a little walk about 1/4 mile east and see what happens to you when (if) you make it to International Blvd.
The A’s play in a slum area, and allowed Al Davis to ruin their stadium. And now they are the only team among the original 16 that is considered when talk of contraction comes up. Kind of sad.
For the last time, the Giants can’t give the rights back. MLB, however, can make that happen. I know you don’t have the capacity to understand this, so I’m going to stop trying to explain this to you.
The A’s finished 2nd, 2nd, 3rd and 4th in AL attendance from 89-92. But sure, whatever you say, they “have never been embraced in the Bay Area”. Liar.
Well, you caught me. Crafty, you are. Called me a “liar.” Niiiiice.
Believe what you will. But, if Oakland is so supportive, build your stadium there. Why are we even talking about San Jose?
Dude, your info on the territorial rights is so off it’s hilarious.
The A’s gave the Giants territorial rights to Santa Clara County, not the other way around. The Giants were looking to relocate to SJ back in the early 1990s, and then A’s owner Walter Haas gave the rights to the South Bay to the Giants as a favor, to help them win support for a referendum that San Jose voters were going to vote on… After Lurie sold the team in 1995, MLB continued to honor the agreed-upon rights, even though the Giants were no longer considering the SJ move.
So, when the Giants needed some help from their east bay friendly rivals, the A’s were happy to lend a hand; but, ask the Giants for a favor, and it’s all what’s mine is mine (even if it wasn’t mine in the first place).
OK, everything you say in your post is accurate (regarding the A’s and San Jose rights). I’ve read your post. Did you bother to read mine? Because my post is absolutely accurate as well.
The A’s exist in Oakland because the Giants allowed it in 1968. So, if you want to talk about “first place”, then it’s all about the Giants in the Bay Area. Not the A’s.
Things have changed since the early 90’s. What was not considered valuable then (rights to San Jose) is considered valuable today. I don’t know why. And I don’t really care why things have changed. Doesn’t really matter why. It only matters that things have changed.
The perceived value of territorial rights to San Jose is a consideration (read: collateral) for the bonds the Giants have taken out on AT&T park. Again, it doesn’t matter whether I (or you) think that territorial rights have value. The bankers, money people, whomever issued those bonds do think that SJ territory has value. Having that territory is a CONDITION of the Bonds. The Giants can’t just give them up.
The overly-simplistic way A’s fans choose to see this is what is hilarious. Man, those Giants sure are mean. Why not just give the rights back to the A’s (who are so nice.)
Repeatedly, throughout these posts, I’ve stated that I hope that MLB brokers a deal that compensates the Giants (and satisfies the requirements of the bonds) so that the A’s can move to San Jose.
But, anytime I try to explain that the Giants can not just give the rights back to the A’s, I might as well be speaking Russian for all the A’s fans seem to understand. Oh well.
The only way I see that happening is if the A’s want him for that one year and then offering arbitration.
Not really. Ethier is a free agent after 2012 and will demand much more money than the A’s have to pay him. Stanton and LoMo have several years before being even arb-eligible. Assuming they’d want Ethier doesn’t really make too much sense.
Ethier is a terrible defender with health concerns and needs to be platooned. He also only has 1 year of team control at over $10MM+ and wouldn’t be around when the A’s are contenders. Gio has his warts but he’s young with a boatload of talent and won’t be a FA until after 2015. This makes ZERO sense.
Ethier would be the base. Of course him alone is not enough and his health problems are nothing to worry about. Also It makes total sense. There have been rumors of billy beane kicking himself in the but for years after trading ethier. Ethier with Webster, songco and Mabye silvero and sands could get it done. PLATONED! Your kidding right. This guy is a guy capable of 30 hr and .280 and above average. The last two years were diminished due to bizarre injurys. As a result of a knee injury and pinky brake his fb rate went down hill next year he wil rebound. And of billy beane is any sort of sabermetrist he knows that as well.
Ethier does not belong on the Oakland A’s and nowhere ever have the A’s ever coveted him since trading him. Bradley helped send the A’s to the ALCS, Ethier was the price. Every A’s fan accepts this…and we don’t want him back under any circumstances, certainly not for Gio or Bailey, lol.
Your argument is completely flawed. Show me one instance online where Beane has said he wants Ethier back? And at first you say his injury issues are nothing to worry about, but then use them to explain his drop in production the last 2 years. Which is it? They aren’t a big deal or are the reason he hasn’t hit as well? You can’t have it both ways. And still, why would he want Ethier in a package at all? He’d be looking for players for the future, not just one year for a guy like Gio Gonzalez with a ton of potential left. Plus like I said, Ethier is expensive. And yes PLATOONED! Do you even know what that means? It means he sits vs LHP because he can’t touch lefties. In the last three years he’s hit .215/.279/.329 against lefties. That is completely unusable. So yes he needs to be platooned since he’s below replacement level vs LHP. And potential only goes so far. He isn’t some young kid anymore and we know his ceiling. Sabermetrics aren’t doctors. They don’t know when a injuries will cease and a rebound will come. Like I said, AT HIS BEST he’s a platoon OF who is absolutely horrendous in the field with 1 year and $10MM left. Why would someone trade a young pitcher with ace potential with 4 years left of control for him at all? If you wanted Gonzalez you’d have to give up a young hitter with tremendous potential who’s cheap and has years of control left. Ethier is none of those things.
OK here it goes…… YES Ethier is horrendous against lefties, but your argument about him being horrendous in the field is mute. HIS PREVIOUS STATS SUGGEST THAT HE IS AN EVERYDAY PLAYER AND SHOULD NOT BE PLATOONED!:
His URZ was 5.2, suggesting he is above average in the field. Not to mention, he did win a gold glove. I don’t follow URZ, because it year to year correlation is the worst amongst any stat, but by watching him in person many of times, it is easy to say that he makes all the plays in and out of his zone. This is an argument you cannot argue with if you have not witnessed his defense in person. This is why the MLB teams have scouts and analytical geniuses because it is a two way street. Next, his injuries were a big deal, but not career threatening a la Grady Sizemore Knee injurys. Both were Bizarre injury’s and are not going to be chronic. Look it up if you dont think so. Next, his FB’s in his 31 hr season was 201 FBs. Next, in his 11 homerun 2011 season he hit 120 FB. That is completely skewed. YOU NEVER see a drop in FB rate quite like that ever. Expect that to rebound in terms of HR. His BA has always been good and does not concern me. And you are right where you say that the A’s wont take him. Definitely not ALONE. I said he would be a good base.
Ok…let me get this straight…you admit he’s horrendous against lefties but still say he should play every day based on previous stats. Those stats are garnered almost entirely against RHP and using someone who can hit somewhere closer to league average against lefties instead of him would yield a much greater overall output from RF. If someone has proven they can’t handle a certain handed pitcher that is the definition of someone who should be platooned. Just because he put up good enough numbers against RHP to make his overall line ok doesn’t mean you continue to let him hit like a pitcher against LHP.
And secondly, you use his UZR of this year which as 5.3 to suggest he’s above average in the field AND THEN have the audacity to then say you don’t like UZR because it can randomly fluctuate for a year or so. That’s why you’re supposed to use 3-4 year samples. So you don’t like the stat but still cherry pick the one year he’s been decent to prove he’s an above average fielder. That completely bombs your credibility and shows your bias. In the last 4 years his UZR was -8.3, -13.5 and -16.5. You already acknowledged how UZR can fluctuate randomly for a year so do you really think he went from TERRIBLE for 3 years straight to above average the year he fought a knee injury for several months? Or did UZR just fluctuate randomly. I think any rational and non biased fan would have to go with the latter
Saying you’ve seen him in person already is also hurting your credibility. I’m going off stats and scouts instead of my personal findings. You aren’t a scout. Many terrible defenders can look just fine because they make the plays hit to them but they miss so many because of a lack of range. And really…the Gold Gloves? You’re using them? The award the gave Rafael Palmeiro a GG while playing 28 total games at 1B? They are one of the worst awards in sports. Derek Jeter proves that alone and I’m a Yankee fan. The best OF in baseball by far the last two years is by the advanced stats Brett Gardner but he doesn’t have one. It’s an offensive award. Hell Matt Kemp is below average too and he won one. But I know I know, he makes all the plays. You’re missing the point entirely. Ethier wouldn’t be part of the package for Gio. That’s not what they’re looking for and he isn’t valuable to them unless it’s a 3 team trade where they flip him. They’re looking for young cost controlled players. He isn’t a start. And I didn’t say his injuries were career threatening, but if you were trading for a player for 1 year and he’s been hurt recently a couple of times, that’s an issue. But it doesn’t matter since he’s not what they’re looking for at all, in any kind of package.
So you’ve admitted he’s terrible against lefties, but for some reason think he shouldn’t be platooned. And you admit UZR fluctuates but choose the only time he was decent in the last 4 years over the other years of absolute Adam Dunn type defense. Then you use the old, “I’ve seen him in person” reasoning and finally the GG. It’s pretty obvious that your bias as a Dodger’s fan is just too much to let you see the truth. Any rational person knows he should be platooned and is awful on defense. But if you aren’t rational enough to realize that, then the argument can never be won. Your bias makes you too irrational on the subject.
Moot. Not mute.
No LoMo fo’ Gio?
Can’t blame the A’s for asking, but there is no way you’re getting Stanton for Gio.
Yes but Morrison should be a no brainier. Maybe the Fish are trying to build his market.
I think they legitimately want to hold on to Morrison. He’s really our only solid left handed bat right now and he’s beginning to show some power.
I would have flipped LoMa for Gonzalez rather quickly. Stanton is WAY too valuable.
It said “package”… So I would assume a straight flip was out of the question.
if im fla i think i seriously consider moving morrison for gio. morrison seems like a bit of a headcase and was actually sent down toward the end of the season bc of his attitude and what not. and really his numbers havent been all that great even though he’s stilla young guy. gio is a stud with tons of upside still. if all it costs for gio is morrison or even if they have to throw another prospect in, i would absolutely do it if im the marlins. being from Philly and a Phillies fan i hope gio stays away from the marlins and the nl east all together, unless Ruben finds a way to get him back in a Phils jersey. (Phils traded him and gavin floyd to the white sox for freddy garcia. one of the few moves in the last 7-8 yrs that hasnt worked out for the Phils)
Beane is out of his mind also and Beinfest should have known that prior to even asking for one of his SP.. Beane always wants more for his SP than they are worth and those Athletics DEARLY need ANY kind of offense after losing both Willingham + Crisp.
Lomo or Stanton. HAHAHA.
Are you saying ANY general manager should be reasonable with their demands for a trade? You’d make for a terrible GM.
We are talking about a top of rotation 25ish lefty power pitcher for a mediocre OBP 25-30 hrish corner OF with poor defense right (Lomo).
What did the Fish expect the A’s to ask for considering their farm system is rather week above high A ball?
That was the point in not even asking Beane for his SP.. beinfest knowing his top prospects are hovering in lower A ball since over the last couple of years have promoted all the top guys in Stanton, LoMo, Coghlan, Gaby etc..
Those are the future of the marlins and the Fish have JJ, Sanchez, Noasco as a 1-3 headed into 2012. Gio would be nice, but not worth giving up Gaby, Lomo, nor Lomo and Gio would not help this team a much as the loss of Gaby, Stanton, even Lomo would hurt them.
So instead, Beane should ask for a combination of Brett Hayes and Mike Dunn?
Interesting you mention Hayes and not the joke about the trade..
John Baker should be back from his TJ sometime in 2012, since has been a full season since the surgery. Hopefully he will be able to since he was a very good offensive C prior to the surgery on his throwing arm.
No way you give up Stanton, that guy is a future MVP. Lomo is more realistic, but one would have to be hard pressed to give up either of them.
I can definitely understand not giving up Stanton he’s going to be beast, however Morrison was in the doghouse some and a change of scenery might not have a bad way to go for the fish.
Yeah, I agree. I think Morrison for Gio sounds very reasonable for the Fish.
LoMo for Gio sounds like a fishy deal to me.
Pun intended?
Of course
Morrison for Gio straight up? if so that sounds like a horrible deal for the A’s. The story says they want a package with 2-3 prospects and Lomo. Personally I don’t think the Marlins have enough to put up a Haren like deal.
So, for Toronto to make that deal, sounds like Travis Snider.
You aren’t seriously comparing Travis Snider to Logan Morrison or Mike Stanton are you??? Those guys can actually hit in the major leagues. The A’s would want a LOT more for Gio than Travis Snider.
Snider, Gose and a SP prospect sounds pretty good…
Agreed, that is price is too steap. Can’t blame Beane though. Gio is under control for 4+ seasons. I know he wants a Heren type package but Gio doesn’t have the track record Heren did at the time of the trade. But I believe Gio has more team controled years left. Although if he keeps pitching the way he has been he will be getting expensive quick. IMO if he gets moved it will be for a large package, either by quanity or quality standars. But it will be less then the Heren deal. Unless Beane get’s someone who is extremly desperate. But it will be interesting to see how it goes.
Gio for Stanton – not a chance. Now LoMo, I think that is acceptable.
Straight up??? Are you kidding me that is a horrible deal.
Marlins said LoMo for Shields.
They should try and trade him straight up for Jesus Montero
Max Stassi projects to be ready by the time a stadium is finished.
He hasn’t hit a lick in the minors, so not sure there…
I mean for the bat, not to be catcher
It would take more than Montero to pry away Gio. Montero is still an unknown whereas Gio has a pretty good track record.
I agree Stanton is too steep but LoMo, that’s fairly reasonable. Maybe if the A’s chipped in another low-level prospect.
All of the A’s prospects are low level. Unfortunately.
im pretty sure you havent even seen there prospects.
Other than Michael Choice, it’s a pretty bad system really. I’ve seen several of these guys (Carter, Taylor, etc.) come through Reno. Sonny Gray is generally thought of as a #3 type. Nothing to get excited about outside of Choice.
I Don’t think so…the Marlins are going to have to include the extra prospect(s) to get a deal done. Like I said up above, Gio is coming off a 3.5 WAR 200 k season and LoMo is a solid, not great hitter w defensive issues. No way would I deal Gio straight up for LoMo and I’m fairly certain Beane would have the same opinion which is why I don’t see a deal happening.
Lomo for Gio is a fair trade
but I don’t think it makes sense for the Marlins
It’s a fair trade straight up, but I may have read somewhere else that it would be Lomo + a prospect.
If Logan is fair straight up, we can put this thread to rest and Gio will be wearing Yankee pinstripes in 10 days. The Yanks can easily match or better that proposal.
I’m thinking the Beane really wants to hang on to Gio and will only let him go if someone overpays.
I agree. Seems like what Wren is up to with Jurrjens too…
I agree I have a feeling the Yankees will panic and offer a Haren type deal.
If the Marlins gave them a package of Logan Morrison and some lesser prospects, they would have another front line starter to make a good rotation really good. Then they could sign this Cespedes character with all this new found money they’ve apparently been hiding for years. They’ll be able to replace LoMo, get a front line starter and have the big news splash they’ve been craving so much. Stop offering stupid deals to Pujols and actually jump on something. Obviously all this is dependent on how much LoMo is valued (the Marlins don’t even like him for some stupid reason) and how much they are wiling to offer someone like Cespedes.
WHY ARE WE YELLING
who’s yelling?
Why not Morrison? he´s an average outfielder, not the greatest thing in Miami, maybe that´s what he needs, one way trip to Oakland
Stanton is too much for Gio but Morrison is too little. Morrison does look like a solid bat, but he is not a special player. Stanton is special. If Morrison where the target, I imagine Oakland would need back a couple of interesting prospects (top 30’s) as well. Maybe Hand and another player. If Oakland wanted Stanton, they would probably have to include Bailey (FL needs a closer) and one of Carter or Allen as well. I still wouldn’t trade Stanton if I was FL, but that is at least real value for him.
I like Stanton alot as an A’s fan but Gio, Bailey, and Carter for just him are you kidding me? Thats insane why would the A’s make that deal. Billy dosent have to trade Gio if he dosen’t want to right now so if he gets moved it’s going to have to be a great deal. It’s would be tough to get a deal for Stanton but if it happened it would probably involve gio and a few prospects on each side.
Morrison, Yelich & Ozuna and maybe one more (Nolasco? Coghlan?) get you Gio and its a fair trade. Gio would destroy the NL.
What do the Marlins expect to give up for a starter with #1 potential that has proven to big one of the top young starters. The Marlins GM should ask for McCarthy if he doesn’t want to give up quality. Beane wants a great package of players for Gio because he doesn’t need to trade him. I can understand not wanting to trade Stanton but Morisson plays out of position and has had attitude issues.
So, not only they lowballed Pujols, they’re now lowballing the rest of the league… seriously, you don’t even want Morrison, take the money and leave
It seems more likely that the Marlins are going through the motions of a PR campaign rather than actually intending to spend money on the team.
Free agency has been going on for how long now? A few weeks? Saying that right now is just plain ignorant.
Defensive much?
Well, after the fourth straight lowball offer (that had a higher number first attached to it from an “anonymous source”) it is seeming more and more likely that the Marlins are more interested in giving off the image of spending than actually spending.
Repeat: they have not made a competitive offer to a single player yet. And every offer that has been originally reported was actually way higher than the real offer.
so what u guys are saying is the marlins should have offered pujols and reyes huge deals before any one else even offers a deal? u guys ever buy anything off of ebay, u dont start high because u cant come down from that high offer. lets say ur trying to buy something thats worth $100(random numbers) but no one else has made an offer u dont make a $100 bid u try to get for as cheap as possible, no point in wasting money.
Someone should buy you some “y”s and “o”s.
What is so hard to comprehend about opening offers? What team ever, EVER, gives out their final offer to a FA before any other team even offers a contract to the player?
If it were an opening offer, why would an “anonymous source” repeatedly say the offer was higher than it was? That would only serve to drive the price up.
Imagine this…every offer the Marlins have out there is accepted. Their payroll increases from roughly 60 mill to roughly 110+ mill. Do you think this is actually even a possibility? Do you think there is any way in the world that they would actually expand payroll like that? With all those offers out there, that is what the Marlins are trying to pretend is true.
So where do you believe the marlins payroll will be?
Here’s their payrolls the last 6 years:
2011: $57,695,000
2010: $47,429,719
2009: $36,834,000
2008: $21,811,500
2007: $30,507,000
2006: $14,998,500
The Marlins are already spending more than they ever have. Given Loria’s notorious cheapness, I doubt they will spend enough to add even just Pujols (~30mill). If they actually expand payroll 20 mill or so (assuming, probably incorrectly, that the new stadium will be a big moneymaker), they would have a chance to add either Reyes, or Buehrle plus a mid-range guy.
Though, I honestly doubt they get any of the top 10 free agents or so.
geeez!!!! basically just a 15 million payroll in 06?
Yea. Outrageous, right? No wonder they got in trouble for not even spending as much as they received in revenue sharing. They would get roughly 30+ mill per year in revenue sharing and Loria would turn around and spend 15 mill on players. Fortunately, MLB set a spending minimum (gotta spend at least as much as you receive in revenue sharing).
So your basing your numbers on what they’ve done in the past? basically all the money that could have been made at the games went to the dolphins owner everything except ticket sales. loria has stated many times that the miami marlins will be a middle of the pack team in terms of payroll ($92 million). so basing on the past is not accuarte because they were getting ripped off by the dolphins owner. I’ll bet you a coke marlins payroll is above 85 million.
Have you ever heard of an agent? Its a bargaining maneuver that a players agent will always try. Just like the agent for every major FA will be tied to the Yankees in order to inflate the asking price. Its really not that complicated. You float out some fake figures through an “anonymous source” and all of a sudden you have helped set an imaginary market value for a players services.
Wait…you know the exact amount of money and the terms of the deals offered to each player? You must work for the Marlins then because no one else knows. No one will really know until after free agency starts and all these writers stop spitting out preliminary numbers out of thin air and then correcting themselves through twitter.
So every other team rumored to be interested in certain players, but not signed anyone is also on a PR campaign right?
I don’t get it? Logan Morrison and the Marlins flat out said no for Gio? I’m very confused at the moment. Stanton is obvious, but…
They have repeatedly said this off season that Morrison is not available….
..which is dumb if there is a chance to land a 4 win/war pitcher with 3-4 years of control for a guy who is redundant on the Marlins at the moment.
I’m not claiming the intelligence of the statement….just that they have pretty high value of him….
Agreed. I laughed for a few minutes at the mention of Stanton, but Morrison…I would do that as the A’s.
Although I suppose maybe they were asking for a ton more to go with him in the package. But if you’re the Marlins, you can’t just say no to any offer involving Morrison. He’s not THAT good.
I’m sure there were complimentary pieces to a trade, but if Logan Morrison was the headlining name in a trade for Gio, perhaps the Marlins haven’t fully expelled their stupidity just yet.
I guess you could be glad as a Marlins fan that at least they’re overrating their players, instead of dumping them off for prospects.
Nah I dunno. Gio for Morrison+ is pretty good.
Marlins are crazy not to give up LoMo for Gio. Of course it depends on if the A’s were asking for more than that
which the article states that they were asking for a package centered around LoMo
non
Logan Morrison, who remains under his team’s control for five more seasons, has been valued at 1.2 and 1.0 WAR* the past two years.
Gio Gonzalez, who remains under his team’s control for four more seasons, has been valued at 3.2 and 3.5 WAR the past two years.
Mike Stanton, who remains under this team’s control for five more seasons, has been valued at 2.8 and 4.5 WAR the past two years.
* Wins Above Replacement as reported at FanGraphs
if you are gonna go by WAR then take gaby sanchez he has a better WAR than morrison and that much closer to gio. cause stanton is out of the question.
non
I understand that Stanton for Gio is a little much, but sorry Marlins fans, Morrison alone is not enough. Gio has ace stuff and is under team control for a long time. Young ace pitchers are more valuable than young inconsistant outfielders.
Gio looked good but there’s no way a pitcher can remain successful with that high of a BB/9. He basically pitched the way Jonathan Sanchez has the past few years, but found his way out of some sticky situations. Stick with LoMo and Stanton. It’d be closer to a fair trade to give them someone like Gaby Sanchez.
look at his era and k’s though
Gio has to be one of the most valuable young starters in the league right now. The Yankees should want to get in on a potential deal there. Montero would be a fair swap (better than Morrison, but not as good as Stanton). They may have to add Noesi to the deal (or another young starter). But not Banuelos or Betances.
I have no problem with not making Morrison available. He’s still a stud.
i would say no stanton
If you buy Lomo’s power then I think moving him for Gio is a mistake.
If you buy Gio as a potential ace at this point, then that is your mistake. Dude has walked 4.4 per 9 over his career, pretty much in line with his minor league #s and he is not getting better.
you never watched Gio pitch. His first year he was average and lost it in some games. The last 2 years he has improved each year. He can dominate a game ask any team in the AL. Most A’s fans like him more than CaHill. You don’t get that type of quality and potential for a few spare parts. Name 1 other starter on the trade market that has more potential and team control for the next 4 years. You can’t. Shop at Macy’s or go back to Kmart for the weekly specials.
I am not an A’s fan, but I agree Gio is definitely better than Cahill. You can criticize Gio for his high walk rate, but considering that FL is still trying to figure out when Nolasco is going to put it together, they should be salivating at a player like Gio. Despite the high walk rate he has been very successful. Gio’s BB/9 rate has been going down and there is really no reason not to expect that to continue (although there is also no reason to assume that it will continue).
The point being that assume that Gio is a finished product, and you have a very good pitcher that is underpriced and controlled for 4 years (hard to come buy). If he improves he is elite.
PS: His fastball velocity has increased almost 3 MPH since his debut. He strikes out almost a batter per inning and he is a groundball pitcher. In that respect he is a much healthier, younger version of Josh Johnson.
“he is a much healthier, younger version of Josh Johnson”
Who walks way more batters than Johnson ever has (in a sample of more than a couple dozen innings), and would be leaving one of the biggest, most pitcher friendly parks in the entire MLB. He’d also get to face pitchers more so maybe the park factors get neutralized, but Gio’s had 2 full seasons, both with identical walk rates (which also coincide nicely with his minor league numbers). No one should be comparing him to JJ, let’s wait and see if he can actually drop a whole bb/9 off a season total before that starts up, which is by no means a guarantee
“Gio has a nice face”. Why is it so common for people to assert you’ve never seen a guy play because he disagrees with an opinion on him? He can dominate a game? Sure, many pitchers in MLB can dominate *a* game. Gio has dominating stuff but to expect him to be an ace is ridiculous at this point. A 1.31 WHIP isn’t Halladay/Hamels/Kershaw/Verlander type of performance. With each passing year that Gio does not fix his control he’s looking more and more like a poor man’s AJ Burnett.
And are you seriously going to prop a Gio argument based on A’s opinions about Cahill? Cahill was torched this year! In the second half he had a 5.80 ERA and a 1.64 WHIP. Yea, I wonder why A’s fans prefer Gio?
Trust me, I’m not saying you move Gio for spare parts. He’s a decent #3 starter which is valuable. Perhaps in a weak rotation he can be a good number 2. But offense is a lot more valuable these days and Lomo can hit, and it looks like he’s developing power as well. IMO, Lomo’s potential to grow as a hitter is more valuable than Gio’s potential.
I’m not going to get into this much considering I’ve already stated my case a couple time in this thread but ur selling Gio short. Yes, he walks guys but he also k’s a batter per inning and doesnt give up hits. He’s still young, still improving and would already make a solid #2 in most rotations. He’s coming off a 3.5 WAR season, a number LoMo is gonna have a tough time even averaging in his career if he can’t improve on defense. His bat is good, but no good enough to make up the difference.
DISCLAIMER: We all have a love affair with our own teams home grown players. We probably see them for more than what they actually are.
That being said, LoMo + a prospect sounds very reasonable to me.
What’s LoMo’s ceiling? As that of a 25-30 hr a year corner OF/1B with a mediocre OBP and poor defensive play in LF/RF? Basically we’re talking about a guy with a ceiling of a Swisher, Corey Hart, Josh Willingham type player. His value comes from the fact that he’s cheap and under control. However, should anyone expect more than him being an occasional all-star type player with a .275/.340/450 line with 25 hrs?
Gio on the other hand is a left handed power pitcher who has gotten better (marginally) over the last 3 seasons and is relatively cheap and still under control for another 4 years. He has not been the same pitcher AWAY from Oakland but he hasn’t been horrible either and a move to the NL might help him maintain his status of a solid #2 with upside.
Stanton is the only position player other than Hanley that I wouldn’t put on the table for Gio. His ceiling is much higher than LoMo’s and is a legit #4 hitter.
LoMo and Marcell Ozuna for Gio sounds reasonable.
Morrison should project out to have a high .300s low .400s OBP yes he had a mediocre year last year but the guy has shown that once he has adjusted he is an on base guy. i mean his first year he hit the equivalent of 4 homeruns in as many games last year. Nobody expects him to hit only 4 just like the marlins dont expect him to have a low OBP. He is touted for his discipline and i agree he is a below average OF but maybe the marlins plan to trade gaby sanchez and move morrison to first where he should be. But other than that I absolutely agree with you.
LoMo is far from a finished product but I just don’t see him being a .300 avg, .400 OBP guy. Nowhere have I seen those projections from any “expert”. He had some seasons in the minors where he did that but it was usually a product of a high BaBIP and low K%. In the majors (and I know he is still developing) he has shown pretty much the same walk rate of 10% but his K rate has risen dramatically and his BaBip has dropped. Assuming he was unlucky and it climbs up to .290-.300 he still projects to be a .280/.350 guy which is good but it’s not exceptional.
Gio is simply a harder to find commodity and under team control for 4 years. Who is easier to find? A 25 yo lefty like Gio or a corner OF capable of hitting 25 hrs and giving you a .280/.340 line? They could make this trade and sign a “Josh Willingham” and keep it moving if they wanted.
It is not poor, it is horrible defensive play in LF. That’s why LoMo only managed 1.2 WAR this season despite of 23 homers. Adam Dunn when playing LF back in the days, he had been much, much better defensive player than LoMo. LoMo’s defense at LF is the worst in the league and could be the worst defensive player in LF for history of Major League Baseball if he stays at LF for times to come. Dude has to come back to 1B. He is projected to get even worse at LF since his body is getting too big to handle. Look at his UZR numbers…. errr it is gross!
There is something wrong about this story. Stanton and Morrison are not equivalent players in the slightest. Also I don’t see Beane going out there and trying to trade for another teams cheap star of the future player (Stanton) cause he knows it will never happen. I bet all he asked for was LoMo and some prospects, but this exposed the fact that the Marlins are not going to do anything this offseason except leak out rumors about who there interested in, so the Marlins leaked out that Beane wanted Stanton just to muddy the waters. This rumor just doesn’t pass the smell test.
You bring up a great point not mentioned here yet, that the two players are not equivalent so there are holes to this story. If it said both, then it would be apparent the Marlins would flat out reject the proposal.
Even though it would be overpaying on the Marlins’ part, I wouldn’t blame Billy Beane for asking for Mike Stanton straight up. However, he would need to be committed if he asked for a package including Mike Stanton.
I think Fautino De Los Santos would be a good fit for the Marlins.
Beane wants either Stanton straight up or LoMo and one or two prospects one being the best major league ready pitching prospect that he can groom to take Gio’s place.
Stanton is too much, LoMo not enough.
Obviously Stanton isn’t going anywhere. I think that was confirmed when the Marlins had a chance to add Manny Ramirez but refused to do so because Stanton was involved. I really don’t see anything happening here unless the A’s lessen their demands or the Marlins give in to the A’s demands..the latter seems unlikely, though.
Well there goes my Gio for Quentin and prospects pipedream.
White Sox already have a surplus of starters, not addressing their need
Well when you’ve apparently got 500 billion dollars to spend this offseason why would you bother trading a great Rihanna impersonator and yet another guy you’re going to build up for a few years, make him a superstar then trade him for some crappy aging veteran or worthless prospects that you will trade in 6 years for more crap
well if the marlins want gio its going to be lomo + prospects i dont know how much truth thier is to this roumor we will have to just wait and see
Obviously the Marlins aren’t that serious about obtaining a top end SP for their new park if they won’t even give anything up for Gio. One of the better young,controllable and cost effective pitchers available.
it seems that way if they want him its going to cost young hitters i agree not for mike stanton but if your not giving up lomo then you wont never get gio teams like the bluejays and yankees will out bid you
Gio is nice and all but I tend to see a lot of luck in the repertoire of a pitcher with 100 walks and an under 4 era. He could continue to improve or stay the same and get less lucky next season and give up a lot more runs. Meanwhile asking for Stanton is one of the more laughable things I’ve heard in a while. Logan Morrison, and maybe one nice prospect with a couple B lvl guys is the most I would give up for Gio. Even then I think that could turn into a bust for the Marlins because Logan is coming along, and for me at least Gio could go very wrong.
Marlins wont get gio then, who is under team control and marketable since its his home area. I cant imagine dominguez and A ball players would be enough to pry away Gio. Good luck overpaying a wilson, buehrle, oswalt, or jackson then. If marlins have cash to spend why not trade LoMo in a gio deal, then sign a short term LF(willingham, cuddyer, kubel, etc to name a few). Either way, there shouldnt be any shortage of teams interested in Gio. A’s arent actively seeking to trade him unless a team is willing to overpay.
Where would LoMo fit in oakland if he’s terrible defensively in the OF, which is their main need? 1b then? They would give up on barton/allen i assume. Carter sent to DH. Kila more of a free lottery ticket. If he sucks, no big deal. For the OF, i assume they hope Grant Green/ Michael Choice are ready by late 2012/2013. Michael Taylor will be 26 and still need to evaluate him.
Rotation of gio/cahill/mccarthy/moscoso, later anderson/braden(when healthy). Godfrey as a depth SP. Maybe the advanced progress of Sonny Gray at some point.
Give up on guys with OPS under .600?? I don’t know. They’re losing Willingham. Jemile Weeks and Scoot Sizemore are the two top returning OPS on the team. LoMo would improve any position he plays…
No, Morrison would be in LF for a few years until his defense became completely intolerable. The A’s are definitely willing to sacrifice defense for bats right now.
If the Marlins want to trade for anyone this offseason, they’re gonna have to part with LoMo. Especially with the known issues with LoMo and management, teams are gonna be relentless in asking for him.
Major differance between Stanton and Morrison.
I would do either of these if I am the Marlins. The reason is with the new wild card rules, having a second top end pitcher becomes more important. Josh Johnson when healthy is your first choice of course but JJ has missed the end of the last 2 (or 3) seasons.
Having a 2nd good pitcher looks like its going to become more important under the new Selig rules. What other pitchers do you think you could get in trade?
What level of pitcher could Stanton bring you Felix H., Dan Haren, Ricky Romero, Danks etc?
If you were going to trade Stanton for a starting pitcher, who would you trade him for?
I agree with your opinion of the importance of having a couple of true frontline starters. If the Marlins are able to acquire someone to put next flank JJ the marlins are in good shape. However, the Marlins must go out to the market and sign some offense to replace Stanton.
Lol Marlins want Players but they ain’t willing to give away one of there Top guy’s..What do they want Gio for trash?
ya exactly
Come on thats the nature of the business. Its equally ridiculous, or even more so, for Billy Beane to request Mike Stanton be included as part of the package. Can’t hurt to try though, who knows when you catch one of these GMs with too much scotch or tequila in their system.
What’s funny is that Gio+Bailey+Grant Green is a perfectly fine package for Stanton.
Drugs are bad. The guy is not leaving South Florida. Expect him to sign a long-term deal either this off-season or the next as the Rockies have done with Tulowitzki. Either you overvalue Bailey or you have never seen Mike Stanton play baseball.
True Angels should Give Miami a try then..Mathis for Stanton.. Hope Beane is really messed up when they offer that
LoMo has amazing potential but a small body of work for him to be traded straight up…where as Gio doesnt have the largest body of work but enough of it. I read locally here Miami was looking to move Ozuna/Yelich/Chad James/Dominguez some kind of combination of prospects like that to get him. Yelich looks like a future beast i hope we keep him. Thats it for good prospects in the Marlins system though, if you can even call James and Dominguez that…
I doubt they trade Ozuna. Marlins scouts are really high on that kid and if they trade LoMo or Gaby then they open up a corner outfield spot he could fill in the near future. i agree they seem willing to package all the other guys in trades for Major League talent.
When are teams going to realize, if you want something good, you have to give up something good in return. Gio is good, but doesn’t look to great, because every outing he is forced to pitch a shut out and asking that every game is just too much for a young guy.
Can we all agree that the Marlins are the biggest joke this offseason so far? They make lowball offers and won’t accept universally-accepted-as-fair offers for Morrison. Grow a pair and make moves, Loria.
so what will the marlins have to do this offseason for you to not believe they are a joke? cause im not gonna lie you’ve been radiating some marlins hate recently and for what? so i want to know what would please you from the marlins offseason? my guess is nothing since i dont think your a marlins fan anyway. you seem like one of those that say the marlins are gonna try to buy another championship but when it comes the 12 other team that are above 100 million they are trying to do what?
lol how I have been “radiating hate” towards the Marlins other than this post? I read articles on this site every day about the Marlins being connected to all the big names….and then it comes out that Marlins are just insulting these big names with lowball offers. Why even bother talking to Pujols if you aren’t putting $200MM+ down? Why even bother talking to the A’s if you aren’t going to give them a package starting with Lomo?
a) Seldom does a team start with their best offer. b) just as there are rumors of a high bid there are offers of low ones too. No one knows except the person making the offer and the one receiving. b) Who in the world, other than Marlins fans thinks that a Gio for LoMo swap is fair to the A’s? Certainly Stanton is asking for too much but Lomo is probably NOT enough.
I agree, Lomo is not enough. Need to kick in a couple of decent prospects too.
You are correct, as I have posted many times in this thread that I wouldn’t be happy with dealing 4 years of cost-controlled Gio for anything less than Lomo, Yelich, Ozuna and another player. I never said Lomo for Gio straight up either, that’s all you, although I wasn’t entirely clear but it should be obvious by my other posts on the topic. It’s just fair and common sense to send Lomo+++ for Gio, but now the Marlins are saying all their most moveable assets are “untouchable” (which is the dumbest term to describe a MLB player in 2011 btw) now, so they continue to just be a bunch of time wasters.
agree
They didn’t “ask” for Logan, the “DEMANDED” him!
Teams are still in the discovery phase for the most part, I look for more movement after the winter meetings. Gio for Morrison seems to be possible.
Not when the team says LoMo is untouchable…
GM’s and writers say alot of things that aren’t true!
What do the Marlins need with Gio Gonzalez, they have Matt LeBlanc.
Am I the only one that thinks a “flat out rejection” by the Marlins of LoMo is kinda dumb. I know he has the potential to be a great player, but it’s not hard to see that they’ve been a bit irritated by him, and he’s been mentioned in several trade rumors (take that for what it’s worth). Obviously Stanton is a ridiculous proposal, but giving up Morrison for a young proven arm in Gonzalez doesn’t sound ridiculous to me
Well now Olney is saying neither offer was ever made, or rejected. Which can lead to the only conclusion that Clark Spencer lied. I wonder if The Miami Herald will take any action against its “reporter” who is clearly pulling things out of thin air?
I agree, Morrison for Gonzo seems like a good deal for bothe teams.
I had a dog named Gio. I know that this doesn’t have any relevance to this post. I just thought you would like to know.
Gio Gonzalez for the marlins new stadium?
So is Buster Olney calling Clark Spencer a liar? Why would Spencer make up his story?
So he can get a headline with his name on it knowing full well he can just tweet out a correction a few hours later. That’s what all the other writers are doing. Eventually, we won’t have any reason to believe these stories any more.
poor a’s fans
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
If that isn’t what he meant then my apologies. It sounded to me like he said, “for Toronto to deal for Gonzalez it would require Travis Snider since all they are asking for from the Marlins is Logan Morrison or Mike Stanton”.
“Jays should just ship over Thames plus a non top 10 prospect”
“Thames has fourth outfielder written all over him”
Pretty sure you just rejected your own trade proposal.
I think Blue Jay fans are seriously overrating Snider and Thames. Logan Morrison is better than both of them.
I said ‘sounds like’ as in it might get it done. It would be close enough that it would at least not result in a hangup.
What about both of them put together? I’m hoping for some kind of wacky DNA-splicing machine this off season that produces Treric Snames, super-outfielder.
I think you are seriously under rating them. And by the way prospect status and actual production are 2 different things. Snider, last year aside, has actually been decent with some really good power numbers. Oh and Thames was no slouch either. OPS of .768. 12 hr, 24 doubles, and 5 triples in 95 games is nothing to sneeze at for a rookie and his AA numbers last year were huge and had an OPS of 1.033 in AAA is not bad either. Lets not underestimate him.
STOP IT!!!!
I freaking love that movie, still to this day. “It’s not a tumor”
Likewise. “Who is ya daddy and what does he do?”
“It’s not a tumor”
You spelled it wrong. It should be spelled “IT’S NADA TUMA”
Ha
Hi. Wow. Easy on the caffeine there, champ.
There is no reason for 2/3 of the owners to violate their own rules (territorial rights.) They protect all teams.
And yes, the Giants make money from fans in the San Jose area. This needs to be addressed by MLB. Baseball’s Anti-trust exemption has nothing to do with this. The Giants can not give away a resource on their own because that resource is collateral for a loan the Giants have taken (Stadium bonds). MLB can, however, make that decision, so long a reasonable compensation is provided.
Not sure the argument you are making regarding the A’s ownership. (Apparently they just want to acquire land in San Jose not for a stadium but for a real estate profit? Seriously, concisely, tell me what you are trying to say.)
Also, the Giants Single-A farm team is in San Jose (not AAA). Easily moved to another small local market, like, say, Oakland.
No, that’s a hang up!
Whole New World, innsain is right that territorial rights in MLB are a massive amount of garbage and very much against most laws of the land. Even the handshake agreement between the A’s and Giants was against the law to begin with, but none of that matters because the Giants never moved to SJ. Which is why none of this should matter right now, except the Giants are being crybabies about “losing” an area that’s closer to Oakland than SF.
I do agree that the A’s should be forced to take Zito back as compensation so the Giants can sign a big FA to keep their attendance up, which I barely believe harms them anyway, as San Francisco itself is the premier walking tourist city in America behind NYC, and they get a massive amount of walkup fans, in addition to all the local bandwagon who continue to propagate the lies the pro-Giants media has been spreading about the A’s for years (Ray Ratto). There’s been so much made of the A’s attendence woes, but the Giants had the EXACT same ones before they moved. The A’s had overall the 2nd or 3rd best attendance in the AL from 1990-92, so saying they’ve “never been popular” is a straight up lie.
The bottom line is that a new stadium in San Jose (or Oakland) is in everyone but the Giants best interests, and even then they are hardly going to fall on hard times. I’ve done no research but I’m almost certain they have very few walkups making the drive from SJ every game. Its just that far away. They do however, have a ton of them from tourists and locals.
innsain could learn how to use paragraphs though…
Much, much ignorance.
If you think any territorial agreements are “handshake” agreements, you are naive and delusional. I am curious as to what law you think is being broken by an organization such as MLB setting territorial rights for it’s members. (Please, please say “anti-trust” laws.) The MLB anti-trust exemption does not affect individual teams within the organization of MLB but rather it protects the MLB’s monopoly from realistic competition from another, upstart league. So, I ask you, what law has been broken by MLB setting its own territorial rights?
Much as the Giants would love to be rid of Zito, the A’s are the last team that deserves to be saddled with him.
Regarding: “all the local bandwagon who continue to propagate the lies the
pro-Giants media has been spreading about the A’s for years (Ray Ratto).” Holy crap. Are you, by chance, a Tea-Party member? This borders on paranoia. What possible reason (here in the real world) would anyone care to “propagate…lies” about the A’s?
If you want to believe that the A’s are very popular in the Bay Area, so be it. I live in the East Bay, and I’ll tell you what this area is: Raider Nation. People don’t wear A’s hats or T-shirts or have A’s bumper stickers. It’s all about the Raiders. In fact, I see far more Giants swag over here than A’s.
Finally, people coming to a Giants game from San Jose have to walk up to buy tickets? There are very few walk-ups these days. But, forget the fans. Really, what supports baseball teams are corporations. It’s not called AT&T park (or potentially Cisco Park) for nothing. The valuable territory in question is not San Jose. It’s Silicon Valley. Honestly, pay a little attention to the world around you.
People continually get upset about the Giants regarding San Jose, when the problem is Major League Baseball. I hope the A’s have great success, regardless of where they end up. I think San Jose is great place for them to be.
Baseball’s antitrust exemption allows owners to do things like create territorial rights, which might otherwise violate antitrust laws (as a collective restraint on competition).
But, territorial rights are not unbreakable rules. Owners can vote to allow the A’s to move even if the Giants object.
And, the idea that the owners can’t vote to allow an A’s move because the Giants’ stadium bonds are conditioned on the continued maintenance of the Giants territorial rights is just wrong. The Giants may have made assertions to their lenders that they had territorial rights to the South Bay, but those assertions would not be binding on MLB, or prohibit MLB from allowing a move if it wished. The bondholders and/or lenders run the risk that the Giants’ territorial rights are unenforceable or invalid (after all, if the courts revoked MLB’s antitrust exemption, the Giants’ rights would be no more, and the bondholders couldn’t go crying to the courts about it).
The Giants did not make the assertion that they had territorial rights to San Jose. Major League Baseball did. It’s not like the Giants can just go out and lay claim to San Jose, Fresno and Pandora. MLB decides which of their franchises (teams) has the rights to which territories. If one team decides to surrender a territory (like the Giants did for the A’s in the ’60s or like the A’s did for the Giants in 90’s) then MLB can just agree. No conflict.
The Giants didn’t wildly make assertions that they held Santa Clara as a territory when they borrowed the money. They held (and still hold) that territory. Per MLB.
Of course the owners can vote to give the A’s San Jose. And if the bond holders feel that the contract with the Giants has been violated, then they have a beef with MLB, not with the Giants.
THAT is what I’m saying. This is MLB’s decision. Not the Giants.