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Phillies Could Be “Most Active Sellers”

By Steve Adams | July 29, 2012 at 7:58pm CDT

The Phillies entered this weekend needing to perform well in a critical series against the division rival Braves. Instead, they were swept and now appear to be in the position to sell off several pieces. ESPN's Buster Olney tweets that the Phillies could be baseball's "most active sellers" in the next two days, and that they've laid the groundwork for several trades. Olney's colleague Jayson Stark hears from several teams that the Phillies could make 2-3 trades prior to Tuesday's deadline, though they've yet to officially declare themselves sellers (Twitter link).

CSNPhilly.com's Jim Salisbury agrees that selling is likely, and runs down several of the possibilities for the Phillies in the coming days. Salisbury writes that Shane Victorino is the "most likely" Phillie to be dealt, and lists the Giants, Pirates, Reds and Dodgers as possible destinations for Victorino. Interest in Victorino was said to be "heating up" as recently as yesterday.

The Reds have also inquired on Juan Pierre, and both the Orioles and Cardinals are potential destinations for Joe Blanton according to Salisbury. He also says that Hunter Pence could be moved if GM Ruben Amaro Jr. is blown away by an offer, and speculates that Ty Wigginton would fit on several teams looking for bench help.

Salisbury reiterates that the Phillies are likely to keep Cliff Lee for the time being, although he could be shopped this offseason in an attempt to fill multiple holes.

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Baltimore Orioles Cincinnati Reds Los Angeles Dodgers Philadelphia Phillies Pittsburgh Pirates San Francisco Giants St. Louis Cardinals Cliff Lee Hunter Pence Joe Blanton Juan Pierre Shane Victorino

Week In Review: 7/22/12 – 7/28/12
Main
Reds, Pirates Interested In Choo; Rangers Out
View Comments (115)
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115 Comments

  1. nepp

    13 years ago

    As a Phillies fan, I dont know that I trust Amaro to get good value for anyone.

    Reply
    • Phillies_Aces35

      13 years ago

      His trades have been pretty successful though. It’s going to be difficult for any GM to get valuable pieces back for anyone on the roster not named Hunter Pence.

      Reply
      • I_Am_Roy_Halladay

        13 years ago

        He hasn’t really had a chance to prove himself as a seller though. The Lee trade was a mistake

        Reply
        • tony_mciv

          13 years ago

          That Lee trade…
          But you’re right, he hasn’t been a seller yet. …Ugh interesting two days ahead of us >.<
          For the love of god though, RAJ please don't trade Lee or Halladay. You need to build around something. Make it the rotation.

          Reply
          • Trent Norton

            13 years ago

            Hey, as a mariner fan that Lee trade was a good one… 🙂

            Reply
            • tony_mciv

              13 years ago

              How’s Smoak doing? (kinda couldn’t resist that one)

              Reply
    • I_Am_Roy_Halladay

      13 years ago

      This is exactly how I feel, I’m nervous for these next few days. That first Lee trade was terrible

      Reply
      • Phillies_Aces35

        13 years ago

        It was a complete salary dump. He admitted to rushing the trade in order to facilitate the Halladay trade. Completely different circumstances.

        Reply
        • Kevin Myers

          13 years ago

          I don’t agree that it was a salary dump, it was the offseason it’s not like he was having to pay him then, he should have been patient to get a better deal

          Reply
          • Phillies_Aces35

            13 years ago

            He couldn’t have been patient… he couldn’t let the fans/team think that Halladay/Lee/Hamels was a possibility at the time.

            I’m not saying it was a good trade but it’s not hard to understand their rationale. Trading Lee in January would’ve been PR disaster.

            Reply
            • Ryan Hi.

              13 years ago

              Still that is no excuse. Good GM’s make sure that they do not put themselves in that situation. Bad GM’s make impulse moves like trading away Lee, or grabbing Hunter Pence just because they can, not because there was a dying need. OR, worst of all in my book, throwing $50 million on the table for Papelbon, which did NOTHING to improve the bullpen, while ignoring the glaring holes all over the field just because it was the sexy move to make at the time.
              I struggle to find moves that Amaro has made where there is good justification for over the past three years.

              Reply
              • Phillies_Aces35

                13 years ago

                I don’t know how Ruben could have not put himself into that situation other than by just signing Cliff Lee to a 6 year deal and not trying to trade for Halladay.

                They were trading 1 year of Cliff Lee for 4 years of Halladay.

                They made the Hunter Pence trade because they needed a right handed bat. You over pay in order to help yourself win now. It happens. Other than Singleton, the likely hood of any of those players being big time MLB contributers is slim. Would I have done that deal? No. But to say it wasn’t a need is ridiculous. At the time, our 3-7 hitters were Chase Utley/Ryan Howard/Victorino/Ibanez/Brown.

                The Papelbon contract was a bad move… not going to argue any differently.

                Good moves though? Trading for Halladay. Getting Halladay to sign for their price. Resigning Cliff Lee (say what you want about it now, but the contract itself was lauded Nationally at the time), Signing Juan Pierre, turning Jim Thome into a high upside catcher and potential reliever, The original Jose Contreras contract, resigning Cole Hamels, among others.

                Reply
                • melonis_rex

                  13 years ago

                  a team with a 90+% chance of making the playoffs and the best record in baseball didn’t need a RHB. trading for pence did not significantly increase the phillies’ chances of winning the world series.

                  Reply
                  • philiafan14364

                    13 years ago

                    @c79e0fe309adee81229bd25b1c7f01a8:disqus

                    I totally agree. Pence was a total luxury and Amaro’s shiny new toy. Totally unnecessary and borderline franchise crippling trade.

                    Reply
                    • Phillies_Aces35

                      13 years ago

                      I disagree. Cosart more than likely is going to be a mid rotation starter or bullpen piece… and Santana is a strikeout machine.

                      Singleton is the only one I’m worried about coming back to haunt us.

                      Reply
        • Lunchbox45

          13 years ago

          thats a really poor justification for not acquiring full value for someone.

          Reply
          • Phillies_Aces35

            13 years ago

            I didn’t say it wasn’t, I’m just saying he’s aware he was wrong and that it was under different circumstances.

            Reply
    • Down_Goes_Brown

      13 years ago

      I am prepping myself for trades that will be stupid and/or short sighted. Please prove me wrong Rube…

      Reply
  2. soundofphilly

    13 years ago

    Outside of Juan Pierre, this sounds like a salary dump to me (which the Phils need to do)

    Reply
    • dylanp5030

      13 years ago

      Pence will not be a salary dump.

      Reply
      • Ryan Hi.

        13 years ago

        He is on track to make $15 million or so in arbitration, getting out of that liability would be a salary dump, just like it was for the Astros when they dealt Pence after he won his arbitration hearing which put him on a higher salary curve than they were comfortable with, and justifiably so. And if this was a salary dump, I am completely fine with that.

        Reply
  3. melonis_rex

    13 years ago

    Rollins?

    Reply
    • dylanp5030

      13 years ago

      Hell only go to Oakland I would think.

      Reply
      • Snoochies8

        13 years ago

        Melonis is an Oakland fan. What would it take? Something like Griffin + Figueroa + Lower Level Talent? (Depending on how much of the money is picked up by each team, of course)

        Reply
        • dylanp5030

          13 years ago

          Have no clue. He’s signed for 11 per. I’d imagine Phillies would eat maybe 3 per if they could get a couple org. Top prospects. Jimmy brings more than just stats. He’s a clubhouse leader.

          Reply
    • Catztradamus

      13 years ago

      Is the only SS in baseball to finish top at his position in UZR, UZR150, SB, slg, runs scored, WAR, and HR each foe past three years, and this year?

      Reply
      • Nimphiusforever

        13 years ago

        Re-signing Jimmy Rollins for three years was a big mistake by Ruben Amaro. Rollins had no other bidders on the open market. JRoll is still a fine defensive shortstop, but he will never change his bad hitting approach. Amaro created an extreme lack of depth on the 2012 Phillies, due to the Rollins extension and Papelbon’s 50 million dollar deal. I’d drive either guy to the airport, so they could fly to their next ballclub.

        Reply
        • melonis_rex

          13 years ago

          The bad hitting approach that has him as an above average offensive shortstop even in a down year?

          seriously,. jimmy rollins does not have a bad contract.

          Reply
        • Ryan Hi.

          13 years ago

          Rollins makes $11M per year, less than Utley, Howard, Lee, Hallady, and even Papelbon. Once Pence goes through arbitration, Jimmy will make less than him too. That contract is not a bad one at all. $11M for a gold glove level veteran SS, who can contribute at all offensively is the going rate. If overwhelmed with an offer, I would consider it if I were Amaro, but otherwise, I have NO burning desire to move Rollins.

          Reply
        • hiflyer000

          13 years ago

          I’m sick of stupidity like this. Rollins is on pace to have 4.5 WAR this year, which means he will earn more than half his contract this year alone. Even if he drops 1 WAR the next 2 years he will easily earn his contract and then some. Saying that the Rollins contract was a bad one is just flat out false.

          Reply
          • Nimphiusforever

            13 years ago

            Watch all the games and maybe you will see the regression of Rollins since 2008. He failed to deliver in a big way when Utley and Howard were on the shelf. Rollins, Victorino, and Mayberry hurt the Phillies in the first half. Now some of the calvary has returned and it’s too late. Stupidity is Jimmy Rollin’s popping up regulary on the first pitch. That stupidity won’t change as long as Charlie Manuel remains the manager.

            Reply
        • Phillies_Aces35

          13 years ago

          Jimmy Rollins isn’t the problem.

          Jimmy Rollins hitting leadoff is the problem. He’d be fine in the 6th/7th spot in the line up… but that’s not going to happen unless they sign a capable leadoff hitter such as Michael Bourn in the off season.

          Reply
      • melonis_rex

        13 years ago

        i don’t disagree with any of this.

        his name had just popped up a few times recently on MLBTR, so it was interesting that he wasn’t named in this article.

        Reply
        • Snoochies8

          13 years ago

          I still prefer Yunel, but it’s looking more and more like Yunel’s not available, so Rollins tops the list now.

          Reply
    • Catztradamus

      13 years ago

      Is extremely underpaid?

      Reply
      • melonis_rex

        13 years ago

        yes

        also i love your avatar.

        Reply
        • Snoochies8

          13 years ago

          HAHA i just saw it, it’s pretty good huh?

          Reply
          • Catztradamus

            13 years ago

            thanks.

            Reply
    • Down_Goes_Brown

      13 years ago

      is an above average shortstop on an affordable contract for his skills who should not be traded lightly (if at all)

      Reply
  4. dylanp5030

    13 years ago

    If Rangers don’t sign Hamilton, I could def. see them trading for Lee in the offseason…especially if they don’t win it all this year…again.

    Reply
    • Gothapotamus

      13 years ago

      The Rangers are looking like the Buffalo Bills of baseball.

      Reply
      • Josh_21

        13 years ago

        Ehh I wouldn’t say that.. They are shaping up to start a dynasty if they can win the WS in the next few years. Buffalo was never even close to becoming a dynasty lol

        Reply
        • Rob Marx

          13 years ago

          Mike Vick, is that you?

          Reply
        • stl_cards16

          13 years ago

          4 straight Super Bowl appearances is 4 games away from being the greatest dynasty of all time. As much as we all love to make fun of the Bills, that’s still pretty impressive.

          Reply
          • Jeff Snedden

            13 years ago

            Unfortunately, those “4 games” were the only ones that mattered. Even if they win 3 of those 4, they aren’t even close to an NFL dynasty. The 70’s Steelers, 80’s 49ers, 90’s Cowboys….those are dynasties. Now back to your regularly-scheduled ridiculous baseball trade scenarios….

            Reply
            • bravesfansince1990

              13 years ago

              You forgot about to mention Tom Brady’s and the Patriots!

              Reply
  5. Dodgerzz

    13 years ago

    I hope Colletti pounces on some of these and gets us good players for cheap, like he did with the Marlins.

    Reply
    • dylanp5030

      13 years ago

      Most will come cheap. Victorino should get something decent and Pence should get something really nice.

      Reply
  6. Josh Mohr

    13 years ago

    Jocketty, please stay away from Victorino and Pierre. Neither are upgrades for the Reds, X Paul is our LH OF bench bat. Pierre is not a CF anymore and Victorino is not a lead off hitter so neither of these players make sense. Unless they are getting Pierre to play LF and bat lead off a few days a week

    Reply
  7. vtadave

    13 years ago

    Lee and Victorino to the Dodgers for a ton of salary relief, Zach Lee, Chris Reed, and Joc Pederson.

    Reply
    • dylanp5030

      13 years ago

      Horrible, just horrible.

      Reply
    • Phillies_Aces35

      13 years ago

      No.

      Reply
  8. California_RedBirds

    13 years ago

    No, no, no, no, no. The Cardinals should not be inquiring about Blanton. I don’t want to see him in a Cardinals uni AT ALL. There are way better options out there then him.

    Reply
    • stl_cards16

      13 years ago

      I’m with you. I’d much rather pay a big price for one of the top pitchers than to add a Blanton or Liriano which isn’t even an upgrade. If we’re scraping the bottom of the barrel, I’d rather just stick with what we have.

      Reply
      • Kevin Brock

        13 years ago

        Liriano is not an option considering he was already traded last night, to the white sox i believe

        Reply
        • stl_cards16

          13 years ago

          Oops, yeah. He’s so important I forgot he’s been traded. Thank you, Kenny Williams!

          Reply
  9. sdsny

    13 years ago

    You could see this coming. The Phillies emptied the farm more than anybody I’ve ever seen in the last 3 years trading for Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay, Roy Oswalt, and Hunter Pence. Losing Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, and Roy Halladay for a while is tough, but the Phils had no depth to even so much as stay afloat in the division.

    Reply
    • tony_mciv

      13 years ago

      and yet the Phillies AAA affiliate The Iron Pigs are at or around 1st place. I like Manuel as much as the next guy, but Sandberg needs to manage the Phils next year. If he can make a team from virtually nothing in AAA and succeed (TWICE), imagine the 2013 Phillies with him.

      Reply
      • Phillies_Aces35

        13 years ago

        It’s AAA.

        Reply
  10. jeffm

    13 years ago

    Pence makes sense for the Pirates. They need an OF bat and he’s under control for another year. Also makes sense because they’re looking at their first winning season since Bonds left after ’92. They’re also getting career years from most of their pitching staff. They should look to take advantage because the odds are the bullpen is nowhere near as good next year as its been this year.

    Reply
    • aemoreira81

      13 years ago

      They were in this shape last July, however, and then the bottom fell out around this time. They’re going to be the hardest team to know what to get out of. They do need help, but they could easily go south in a hurry.

      Reply
    • randyfastman

      13 years ago

      any talks between bucs and phils about Pence stars with Marte and if I’m the bucs, i would pass…. plus trading Pence leaves the phils with ZERO outfielders going into next year which makes ZERO sense

      Reply
  11. MaineSkin

    13 years ago

    I swear of the Os land Bentacourt or Blanton I’ll protest their games. I’d rather watch Arrieta and Marisz continue to fight for their jobs. Look at the growth of Tillman and Hammels not to mention David, Jones and now Markakis really finding his niche as a Maier type of hitter with ++D in RF.

    Reply
    • Lookouts400

      13 years ago

      David? You mean Davis?

      Anyway, as I’ve been trying to tell people, they could use another arm for the pen, I’m ok with Betancourt. I do agree with you that Arrieta/Matusz/Britton/Hunter/Tillman should be allowed to continue to fight for their jobs.

      Reply
  12. T28C

    13 years ago

    Pence said he loved Philly any chance he comes back through free agency next year and go long term but around 20mm a year

    Reply
    • stl_cards16

      13 years ago

      I can’t picture paying Pence $20MM per. Good ball player but that would be a huge overpay.

      Reply
      • Bender44

        13 years ago

        In no world is Pence worth 20 million. Hell, 15 million is really stretching it.

        Reply
        • Catztradamus

          13 years ago

          there are exactly 24 outfielders in history who have made more than 12,000,000 a year. Pence is a 10,000,000 player.

          Reply
    • nepp

      13 years ago

      $20 million a year for a career 108 OPS+ hitter with bad defense?

      Reply
    • Ryan Hi.

      13 years ago

      If Rube gives Pence 20 million on a long term deal, he should be thrown off of the Ben Franklin Bridge.

      Reply
  13. John Shoemaker

    13 years ago

    At this point ANYTHING for Pierre, Wigginton & Blanton is a bonus. Victorino & Pence are chips. Trade them to the highest bidder & you will get younger players off a MLB roster. Pence should get the Phils a decent prospect or three.

    Reply
    • John Shoemaker

      13 years ago

      Players off a MLB roster for Victorino & Pence, not the others.

      Reply
  14. YanksFan4EverNamed_Nick

    13 years ago

    i could see the yankees trading for wigginton and blanton for adam warren david adams austin romine?

    Reply
    • flyerzfan12

      13 years ago

      who on earth are those players, looks more like 4 names and a salad the way you wrote it

      Reply
    • Ryan Hi.

      13 years ago

      If Austin Romine is who you are talking about, DONE. You can have both Wigginton and Blanton for that, at full salary of course.

      Reply
  15. Lunchbox45

    13 years ago

    trade halladay.

    Reply
    • Gothapotamus

      13 years ago

      He literally has no value right now. Phillies would have to eat almost his entire contact for some batting practice balls. They’re better off holding on to him and hope he gets healthy/figures things out.

      Reply
      • expos94

        13 years ago

        I’m pretty sure any baseball executive or insider would disagree with the notion that Halladay “literally has no value right now”

        Reply
        • Gothapotamus

          13 years ago

          Maybe I should’ve more explicitly stated my point: the phillies would be selling extremely low on him right now if they were to trade him. They’re better off rolling the dice and hoping he can rebound, even if it means $20m on a guy who misses next year with surgery or just isn’t the same pitcher.

          I have to think Lunchbox’s comment is more of a sentimental one as he’s a jays fan and wants to see Roy get a ring, being that it’s not going to be with the phillies.

          Reply
          • Ryan Hi.

            13 years ago

            I am a (realistic) Phillies fan, and I agree with you 100%. Who would take on a $20 million commitment for a pitcher at Doc’s age, who clearly is not right, and had shoulder issues bad enough this year to cause him to shut himself down. Answer: no one.

            Reply
          • Jimcass134

            13 years ago

            It’s Roy Halladay? The Phillies in my opinion would be selling at the least pretty high. Unless you’re in their front office and know something I don’t.

            Reply
            • Gothapotamus

              13 years ago

              I’m no scout, but I’ve watched his three starts since his return from the DL. He’s not right.

              Even if he was lights out in those starts, I would imagine there would be a good deal of apprehension, still. He just missed two months and was obviously hurting from the start of the season based on his performance.

              Reply
              • Jimcass134

                13 years ago

                Yes but everyone who in baseball and watches baseball knows how competitive Doc is and we all know he will work his tail off the remainder of this season and in the off season to get back to the elite level pitcher he was.

                Reply
          • Catztradamus

            13 years ago

            actually its the opposite. Halladay is underpaid, and thats exactly why they shouldn’t trade him.

            Reply
            • Gothapotamus

              13 years ago

              He signed a below-market deal back in the winter of 2009. At his current level of production, he is no longer underpaid.

              Reply
      • Lunchbox45

        13 years ago

        a decade of dominance, vs one off year. Most gm’s would still give him the benefit of the doubt.

        He’ll still bring in a good package.

        Reply
        • Gothapotamus

          13 years ago

          One off year due to shoulder problems, nobody is biting on that.

          I know you’re a big Roy fan, so am I, but try to look at the situation objectively.

          Reply
          • hiflyer000

            13 years ago

            He doesn’t have shoulder problems, he had a muscle strain which he will completely recover from in time. I’m betting just about any contender would love to have him on a 1 year deal.

            Reply
            • Gothapotamus

              13 years ago

              Strategically speaking, he should be put on waivers on August 1st. If this happens, guarantee he clears. No team in their right mind would take the chance of Doc’s remaining 2012 salary and 2013 salary, even for nothing in return.

              Reply
            • Phillies_Aces35

              13 years ago

              There were concerns about his rotator cuff. He’s a 35 year old pitcher who’s stuff seems to be on the decline.

              … and he’s owed $20 million next year with a full no trade.

              Reply
              • Gothapotamus

                13 years ago

                He can only block trades to 21 teams. That’s a Phillies standard. Too many players (ie Utley) have most favored nations clauses which would also give them full NTCs if they sign a player to a contract with a full NTC.

                Reply
                • Phillies_Aces35

                  13 years ago

                  I thought they ended up giving him a full no trade. My mistake.

                  Even if it’s not contractually written that way, I’d guarantee they would treat him as if he did have one. They have too much respect for Roy Halladay in the FO not to.

                  Reply
                  • Gothapotamus

                    13 years ago

                    I’m not exactly sure when they stopped giving full NTCs. Abreu and Burrell had them, but Chase only has a partial.

                    Blocking to 21 teams is functionally almost a full NTC. You figure they’d allow trades to four NL East teams (which would be unlikely) and four teams who probably didn’t figure to be good in 2012 (ie Astros, padres, cubs) who would have no utility for the Roy’s, utley’s and lee’s of the world, even if the Phils ate salary.

                    Although, lee didn’t put Texas or Nyy on his list, so he went about it differently.

                    Reply
                  • Gothapotamus

                    13 years ago

                    Did the math and figured out Utley’s contract was under Gillick, which makes sense. Thought it was under Wade.

                    Reply
        • Phillies_Aces35

          13 years ago

          I don’t know if you’ve watched him lately but he isn’t close to the same pitcher he’s been in the past. His velocity down and his pitches aren’t nearly as sharp as they used to be.

          Reply
          • Lunchbox45

            13 years ago

            he had one of the best seasons of his career last year. I understand how he looks this year, but you have to take chances on talent.

            if i was texas or a team (near) guaranteed to make the playoffs , I’d acquire him and shut him down for a month to let him rest and see if that helps.

            If not I’d bet on him coming back in to ace form with an off season of r & r.

            you don’t just fall off a the face of the earth like that. yes eventually he’ll age and get worse, but not that quickly

            Reply
        • aemoreira81

          13 years ago

          However, he has had injury woes this year. Perhaps in the offseason, Halladay could have value.

          Reply
  16. Brlong23

    13 years ago

    Remember Polanco is done after this year as well so how about Lee to the Rangers for Mike Olt, Victorino to the Dodgers for Kenley Jansen, Blanton and Pierre to the Cardinals for Jon Jay and Zack Cox. Rollins, Pence and Cash to the A’s for Jarrod Parker.
    I’d take any of those trades.

    Reply
    • Gothapotamus

      13 years ago

      Maybe Lee and cash for Olt makes some sense, but the other three are pretty lopsided, one way or the other.

      Reply
      • Ryan Hi.

        13 years ago

        That better be a lot of cash, otherwise Texas would be insane to do that.

        Reply
        • Brlong23

          13 years ago

          Texas was willing to pay him more 2 years ago. Lee took less to come to Philly. Now they desperately need another pitcher because of injuries and want to continue their championship run. I bet Texas would kick in money to make it happen. Olt is blocked at 3rd by Beltre anyway so he’s wasting away in the minors for no reason.

          Reply
    • philliesfan123

      13 years ago

      Seems like something you could do in MLB 2K12, not in real life. As much as I would love that as a Phillies fan.

      Reply
  17. jeffm

    13 years ago

    If the Phillies do trade a bunch of players, like the should, just don’t make it for pitching prospects. They’ve got pitching. They need bats. Bats that can contribute in the near future.

    Reply
    • Phillies_Aces35

      13 years ago

      They really don’t have that much pitching.

      Reply
  18. Jeff Snedden

    13 years ago

    You know what player I want the Pirates to trade for? Mike Fontenot. Utility INF that can play 2B/3B/SS in a pinch and provide a solid LH bench bat. Forget Victorino, Pence, Polanco. Three playoff runs too, good experience to add to the team without disturbing chemistry or giving up an advanced prospect.

    Reply
  19. Bender44

    13 years ago

    I’d be hesitant to trade Rollins if only for the fact that they have nothing prospect wise in the infield. (Don’t mention Galvis) Unless they can get someone who can step in and play either short or 3rd in the next year or so, there’s no upside to trading him. Rollins’ contract is way down the bad contract list as far as the Phillies are concerned. Plus with a potential multibillion dollar TV right around the corner, it would benefit the owners to spend a little now and keep the team somewhat competitive until the new TV is signed. Its not like there’s a whole bunch of available SS out there that could replace Rollins. Sure you save 5 million or so by trading him and plugging a league average type guy in there, but where are you going to spend that 5 million? There’s nothing out there to buy.

    Reply
  20. philliesfan123

    13 years ago

    Heard on the local Philly radio that there’s a good chance Pence is headed to SF and it’s just waiting approval of the owners.

    Reply
    • randyfastman

      13 years ago

      just read this has been “shot down” by numerous media outlets, including the guy that started the rumor

      Reply
  21. owlssc

    13 years ago

    Nobody will blow you away for Pence. The best you can realistically get is Francisco Peguero and Justin Christian from SF.

    Reply

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