Orioles executive vice president Dan Duquette spoke with reporters today, including MLB.com's Britt Ghiroli, and covered a host of topics, beginning with Manny Machado. The standout third baseman called his $519K salary for the 2014 season "disappointing" last night, but Ghiroli reports that Machado will also receive a $100K bonus for winning a Platinum Glove award — an award being the best defensive player, regardless of position, in the league. Here's more on Machado and the Orioles…
- Duquette told Ghiroli and others today that the team visited the idea of a long-term deal for Machado last year, but talks didn't come to fruition. Those talks weren't resumed this spring, as the focus has been on getting Machado healthy. The third baseman said to Rich Dubroff of CSNBaltimore.com (Twitter link), however, that he likes the idea: "I’d be up for it, I’m open to it. Nothing has come up yet."
- Duquette added that there is no progress to report on extension talks with J.J. Hardy, Chris Davis or Matt Wieters. Hardy told Dan Connolly of the Baltimore Sun that it's been 17 days since his agent even had discussions with the Orioles' front office (Twitter link). He's set to hit free agency next winter, while Davis and Wieters are controlled through 2015. Machado, of course, is under control for much longer and cannot become a free agent until the 2018-19 offseason.
- The market for Ervin Santana has become "interesting," per Duquette, who alluded to the fact that other teams are beginning to show interest due to various injuries in camp. Most notably, the Braves have begun to show interest in Santana after an MRI showed ligament damage in Kris Medlen's right elbow.
- Ghiroli wrote last night that top prospect Jonathan Schoop is impressing the Orioles both on and off the field with his relentless work ethic and his constant desire to pick the brains of veteran players to learn something new. Schoop added a good deal of muscle this offseason and is making a strong case to open the season as Baltimore's second baseman. However, he'd never be here if his baseball coach at age 13 hadn't slapped him on the back of the head and pulled him off a soccer field, Schoop recalled. The now-6'2", 228-pound Schoop had decided to try focusing on soccer, believing himself to be too small (he was 5'4" at the time).
Getting paid 619K a year to play baseball, disappointing…. realizing that is more than 97.5% of American households made last year, priceless.
Not to mention the seven figure signing bonus. All that money is a real shame.
Right. $5.25MM signing bonus he got, guaranteed for no production.
It’s sad for American households, for sure. It doesn’t invalidate his point though. He’s clearly worth what, 30 times as much per season? 35? 40? But the system is set up in such a way that he literally can not get it for the first three years and is almost 100% sure not to get it for the three after that.
I understand why it’s like that: Baseball players take a while to develop, a lot of them don’t pan out, and it has to be attractive to clubs to keep devoting significant resources to developing these players, which is why they get as much control and as much discretion as they do.
But if you were the guy making 3% of what your skills were actually and very clearly valued at I think you would be a bit miffed too. Doesn’t really matter if that 3% turns out to be $619k.
That’s true of nearly every business. When you start off, you make less than you’re worth. Then you prove yourself and you make the big bucks. Problem is in his case, he’s actually made a fair amount of money already. Who feels sorry for the underpaid millionaire who has to work hard to hit the ball with the stick?
I won’t disagree that baseball players are overpaid, but I think their job is pretty difficult. I mean, have you tried hitting a 95 mph sinking fastball? Not easy. There’s a lot of travel involved – literally about 8 months worth.
If you were making 30 times less than a co-worker, and you were doing a better job than that person, you’d probably feel unhappy about it too. The difference is, you don’t have a microphone shoved in front of your face everyday being asked about it.
Depends on how you look at what “co-worker” means in this context. Since the people making 30 times his salary have been in the game much longer, it makes sense to look at them as his superiors. With that in mind, I am paid much less than many of my “co-workers,” Am I unhappy about it? Not now. Maybe in a few years if things aren’t looking up. There’s no microphones, but you’ll find office whiners wherever you go. There’s not much of a difference.
How is playing baseball more difficult? clearly these folks don’t just get out of bed one fine day and try hitting 95 mph pitches. Others put themselves through schools, exams, struggle of looking for a job before they see any stability.
You’re partially right, but I also think you’re dabbling in false equivalence.
1. No other business starts paying you 3% of what you’re worth.
2. Most other businesses are not monopolies. Most other businesses do not have the terms of your employment pre-negotiated by a third party who did not know you existed when they negotiated them.
3. The way most Americans get a higher salary is by leaving their jobs and finding a new one, which is why there is no loyalty remaining between employees and employers and ends up in a vicious cycle. In any event, most other businesses don’t force you into a six year contract before you can do so, and even those that might try to do so you are fully free to negotiate whatever terms you think are fair for those six years. The terms of a baseball contract are dictated to you by wanting to play baseball.
Have you ever come across someone on a work visa? now if someone like that was complaining, I can understand. besides machado should know that he got injured and everyone though that it was a serious enough injury for him to miss couple of months during this season. he has to prove he is healthy and those second half numbers are not gonna be a trend.
Your logic is sound but your premise is flawed. Baseball is not like, and therefore cannot be compared alongside, any other business.
But he got a guaranteed $5.25MM signing bonus, for no production. Even if he washed out of baseball, he really needs to understand that. So many prospects wash out.
Still. Throw his $5.25MM on top of the $619k salary and we’re only talking ~30% of his worth. (Split the $5.25MM across six seasons, which is a more accurate measure, and we’re at about 10%).
Also, please note that I never said anything was wrong with the system. I simply said he has a point. I do tend toward believing the system slants too much in favor of the teams as it exists right now, but since I don’t have any specific proposal to change it I’m not going to suggest it should be changed — just get people thinking.
But you can’t accurately do that. Is like lottery tickets, you can’t take the winning, and the cost of the winning ticket and subtract it, and say it’s good for society. Must figure in the cost of purchasing every ticket. So many prospects don’t work out, but many of them get huge signing bonuses. The teams account for this in giving out bonuses, while assuming that some wash out, and some way outperform. He is better off when he signed getting the $5MM guarantee than the 30% chance $30MM for his first 3 seasons.
I’d take the guarantee too, but let’s not act like he actually had that choice. He takes the $5MM (or a sum right around that level) or he doesn’t play baseball.
As I said, I fully understand why the system works the way it does. I also fully understand why a player would be miffed at making a fraction of his objective worth. “But players who aren’t you took our money and washed out” isn’t really going to make them any more pleased with that situation, is it?
The only question I raise is this: Have we achieved the right balance between the teams and the players? As far as I am concerned, the answer is a resounding no for players like Machado; paying $7.2MM (5.25MM + ~620k*3) for at LEAST $45MM worth of production isn’t what I call a proper balance. I’d need to see a lot more numbers to make a decision on whether or not we’re close in the aggregate when we include non-superstar players. (Hey MLBTR! New post idea for you.)
But also can’t directly compare to free agent prices. If we put everyone into a free agency pool then salaries would be quite a bit less than $6M per WAR. Once he hits free agency he will be making way more than the balance point says he is worth. In a free market salaries would probably go up a bit, but you wouldn’t see everyone making $6M per WAR, since there would be more players competing for the same amount money.
Baseball is different in that it takes a while for you to prove what you are in order to get ahead. And don’t see it changing much. MLBPA is concerned with it’s members, who are the players in the majors. Small market teams would never agree to going back to a free market for amateur talent, and players union doesn’t have enough interest in it either to make it their goal.
I’d like to see a bit more of a free market for amateur talent, but as you see for intl free agents that teams put a valuation on the players and consider what they will do during those cheap seasons. Except for the Cuban players who have proven something his salary really wasn’t all that different than the 17 year old international free agents.
While true, every player goes through this process. The ones that are good enough capitalize on it through arbitration and free agency (or signing a lucrative extension with the current team). Even Mike Trout is only making $1 million this year, after 2 great years (Machado has only played 1 full year), and that $1 million is a record for a pre-arbitration eligible player. Manny will get paid eventually, and I hope it’s by the Orioles, and for a very long time!
Machado and the rest of the players are the reason that baseball is a billion dollar business. If he isn’t getting paid, then someone else is. It’s reasonable to want your slice of the pie, and Manny isn’t getting it.
I always thought it’d be nice for there to be some sort of pool that can award underpaid players like him with extra money at the end of the season.
It’s a bit disappointing when the guy paying you is making ten times that much off of you and has way higher revenues.
Running a team is a much harder job than being a single player on that team.
So Santana has a 14 million one offer and a three year offer on the table. Has he decided that he’s now worth 100 million again? And if he doesn’t take any of these offers, is the Qualifying offer to blame once again?
I think at this point he is looking for a pillow contract and is hoping the Braves with match the O’s offer letting him pitch in a more pitcher friendly division and league to boost his 2014 numbers.
Don’t get this. I don’t think he has anything else to prove.
He was a salary dump after a very bad 2012 season. Santana has to prove he can replicate 2013 and not fall back into his 2007, 2009, 2010 and 2012 form.
What was wrong with 2010? He had a 3.92 ERA in 222.2 IP and has since drastically increased his GB%.
He has plenty to prove.
He’s not that good
The Twins offered him 3/30. If he takes the 14 this year and gets another QO next year that’s already 30 million. The three year deal doesn’t make much sense. Santana is likely worth somewhere very close to the 4/50 Garza, Jiminez, and Nolasco got
I don’t disagree. I’m saying that he now has a few offers and should take one of them rather than continue to play the waiting game.
I know you think the QO process is awesome, so here’s what Steve Adams had to say earlier in reference to Santana and the qualifying offer:
[Comment From ErvinErvin: ] Should I just take
the $33M from the Twins and skip all this crap again next offseason?
Tuesday March 11,
2014 1:59 Ervin
2:00
Steve Adams: $33MM for
Santana is basically signing away 2015-16 for a total of $19MM. Next year’s QO
alone might be slightly north of $15MM. If Ervin believes he can have a good
season, there’s no reason to take that deal from
Minnesota.
He goes on to add:
Steve Adams:
Morales
made a poor choice and should’ve accepted, in my view. Drew’s probably worth
$14MM.
People are quick to say “they should’ve taken the deal,” but what
free agent wants to work year-to-year? There’s no security in that scenario.
Players work for six years to get to free agency so they can sign a long-term
deal and not have to worry about contracts. Even if you don’t think Drew is
worth $14MM annually, who’s to say he’s not a $10MM player over four
years?
Tuesday March 11,
2014 3:09 Steve Adams
3:10
Steve Adams: The QO
system drives down player prices and has, to this point, not helped many small
market clubs pick up compensatory draft picks. The Yankees had three first-round
picks in 2013, and the Red Sox will have three this coming year. That’s not
accomplishing the end goal.
If I signed Wieters today I’d go 6 years/$90MM. If I signed Chris Davis? I’d offer 5 years/$100MM w/$5MM buyout on $20MM option. J.J. Hardy: 3 years/$34.5MM w/$750k signing bonus and $750k buyout on a $10.5MM option.
Machado should pipe down and wait it out until arbitration or an extension offer, which he’ll turn down because it won’t guarantee him $20MM a season for half a decade despite less than two full years of service time.
Why don’t Davis and Wieters get signing bonuses?
Spot on for Wieters, way too low on Davis and JJ I’d say.
Way too high for Wieters. He isn’t as good as McCann, and if I’m Orioles I want a discount, not a price that is more than the player will earn in free agency.
Isn’t as good as McCann? That’s ridiculous
I think your pushing it a bit. I wouldn’t give Wieters $90MM, he is solid, but not at that price. Davis one is risky. Personally I’d rather want to see him repeat, but if they can lock him up for that price it is a bargain if he can do it again.
Way too much for Weiters. He has NOT blossomed to the player expected. To offer anywhere near that for a player at an injury prone position is not smart. The top hitting catchers, people are talking about moving them to another position. No one is suggesting that for Weiters yet.
Your numbers are below market on Hardy. (I like your numbers if I were signing the checks, but it’s not gonna happen.) Hardy should easily be able to sign for 3 yrs/$40 mil on the open market considering Peralta signed for $13.25 mil per on his 4-year deal. They’re the same age (Peralta’s 3 months older) and even though Peralta’s slightly better hitting for average, Hardy has an edge in power (playing in Camden Yards helps) and he’s bringing two gold gloves to the negotiating table. I could even see him signing for up to $15 million per if two teams got into a bidding war.
What is a platinum glove award? When did this start? So he’s the best defensive player in the league but doesn’t get the GG? Or did get the GG?
He got both. Still don’t see the point of a platinum glove if you got the GG.
started in 2011. Whereas gold gloves are chosen by coaches/managers pg is based on a fan vote.
The Platinum Glove is the “best defensive player” of the GG winners.
Don’t read too much into Machado’s remarks. He’s right to be disappointed, he had a great season, and it’s not a bad idea to try to guilt the O’s into giving him a little more cash when they’re throwing it around right now. But disappointment fades over time. He’s 21, be glad he’s not speaking only in quotes yet.
One thing I hate about the American sports scene is that whenever somebody speaks their mind, we punish them for it.
First off Manny should of kept his mouth shut. Second he is no Mike Trout, although at times it looks like he could be pretty darn good. These players all have an option of signing an extension that can balance team risk and player risk. But the players do not get that part. They all want it to be team risk.
Machado was asked a direct question and replied with exactly 2 words: “It’s disappointing”. Why should he have to keep his mouth shut? If you wanna use his response to speculate a further debate, then fine, but HE shouldn’t have to keep his mouth shut.
Secondly, Machado has never been approached by the organization with an extension offer. He probably would have been if it wasn’t for his ACL tear