It was on this day 92 years ago that Indians legend Larry Doby (1923-2003) was born in Camden, South Carolina. Doby was the second player to break baseball’s color barrier and the first to do so in the American League, playing his first game just a few months after Jackie Robinson’s debut for the Dodgers. Doby spent 10 of his 13 Major League seasons in Cleveland, hitting a whopping .286/.389/.500 over 5079 plate appearances in an Indians uniform and playing a major role in the Tribe’s 1948 World Series championship (still the franchise’s last title). For both his excellent career and his role as a pioneer, Doby was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1998.
Here’s the latest Tribe news…
- In a reader mailbag piece, Paul Hoynes of the Cleveland Plain Dealer delves into the recent trade talks between the Tribe and the Diamondbacks. Cleveland wanted A.J. Pollock when the Snakes asked about Danny Salazar, and while Arizona GM Dave Stewart liked Salazar, Tony La Russa was looking at a couple of other Indians players instead. Talks may have somewhat fizzled out at that point. The D’Backs ended up getting a top-of-the-rotation arm in Shelby Miller by dealing Ender Inciarte, Dansby Swanson and Aaron Blair to the Braves. A package like that may not have worked for the Indians since they wanted players that could help them immediately in 2016, and only Inciarte would’ve fit that bill.
- Also from Hoynes, the Indians’ interest in Chris Carter and Pedro Alvarez seems to have cooled. Hoynes reported last week that the Tribe was considering one of the two non-tendered sluggers as a DH option.
- The Indians have asked the Giants about Joe Panik “a couple of times this winter.” ESPN’s Buster Olney recently reported that the Tribe asked for Panik and Brandon Belt as part of a package for Carlos Carrasco. In regards to that proposed deal, Hoynes says Cleveland would’ve used Panik at second and could’ve shifted Jason Kipnis to third. Hoynes doesn’t think Kipnis would’ve been (or is being) shopped, and I have to agree — dealing Kipnis in the wake of his big bounce-back season would be a curious move, though the Tribe could command a huge return from another club.
- Corey Kluber has probably become “untouchable” in trade talks, Terry Pluto of the Cleveland Plain Dealer writes. The Tribe received a ton of interest in Kluber, Salazar, Carrasco and Trevor Bauer at the Winter Meetings and Pluto is doubtful that the team will ultimately end up dealing any of them. Part of the issue could be that the Tribe’s asking price for any of the starters is “way too high,” according to chatter from the Meetings.
- The Indians also received a lot of interest in their pitching prospects, with Mike Clevinger and Justus Sheffield getting the most asks and Double-A lefty Shawn Morimando also drawing attention.
- Some teams think the Tribe will deal one of Bradley Zimmer or Clint Frazier, Pluto writes. MLB.com ranks Zimmer and Frazier as Cleveland’s top two prospects, though since both are at least a year away from the majors, rivals speculate that the Indians will deal one for talent that can help them win in 2016.
Calling Shelby Miller a “top-of-the-rotation arm” is straight up ignorance.
Care to explain why?
Because Miller has had exactly half a season of dominant pitching in his career. In the first half of last season he had an era of 2.38. In the second half his era was 3.83. Now it may be believable that he grew into being a TOR arm if his dominance was during the second half of the season, but taking into account how much regression he had in the second half, it is more likely that that is the player he is. He has a career FIP of 3.82 and a career xFIP of 4.08. It’s more likely we’ll see an ERA closer to those two numbers in 2016 that the 2.38 he had in the first half of 2015. He also has averaged 7.56 k’s/9 and 3.24 bb’s/9 for his career. The first number tells me he isn’t much of a strikeout pitcher and the second tells me he doesn’t have much control. He should have either one or the other, if not both, to be a TOR arm.
Soler and, McKinney or Voglebach for Salazar, too light?
Good the Cubs don’t need another trade this year maybe July when the Indians relieze there not the Mets and deal in good faith to someone /The Cubs are done we hope from a die heart fan
Not even close to enough. They asked the Diamondbacks for Pollock. They’d ask the Cubs for Bryant or Russell.
With Cleveland asking for pollock as a return for Salazar I really don’t see the Cubs and Indians matching up as trade partners…both teams are in win now mode
I think McKinney, Volgelbach and one more player for Salazar and Chisenhall makes sense but idk I think them striking a deal is unlikely
Not close to enough in this market and doesn’t fit with what the Indians want in return. If the Indians are giving up both Salazar and Chis then the Cubs better be willing to give up Schwarber + in return.
I figured as much, I just feel like the Cubs are too hesitant to actually deal any of the young guys who they have on the roster (Schawrber Soler) hence why I didn’t include them
Panik & Belt for Carrasco? That seems a bit steep. Carrasco’s good but he’s not worth both those guys.
I don’t really see how the Indians are going to find a package for either of those guys that helps them more this year than just keeping their pitchers. I guess some other GM could just make a really dumb deal, but the Dbacks seem tapped out.
Even a deal with the Cubs is going to be more about potential and future value than immediate improvement.
I agree that Panik and Belt is a little too much, but even if it was even value both teams are just moving their holes around.
I’d have to imagine the Giants F.O. giggled hysterically when they all got together and heard that.
I’m not sure if the Indians are serious about moving Carrasco, but if that’s what they are asking for, I’m fairly confident he’ll remain in Cleveland.
I mean, yeah, that’s a huge asking price. But if any SP is worth it, it’s Carrasco. He’s a top 15 pitcher in the game on an insanely team friendly contract. There are extremely few pitchers in the game that are as good as Carrasco with 5 years of team control for almost no money at all. His value is beyond sky high.
I have nothing against Carrasco.
But the Giants are not so hard-pressed for a starter that they’ll sell off two really good MLB players for one. And if they do, that name better start with a J and end in ose Fernandez, or the likes of him.
There’s no sense in creating holes at 1B and 2B for a position they can just sign via free agency. They aren’t hard up for cash.
I would give more for Carrasco than I would for Jose. And before you freak out, I know Fernandez is better. Fernandez is better than everyone. But Fernandez is also going to cost SIGNIFICANTLY more money, is under control for less time and is a big injury risk. Carrasco is an ace with the most team friendly contract in the sport and no big injury concerns. Seriously, take a look at his contract.
Again, you have a point to make there.
The point is: the Giants aren’t giving up two guys who combined for 8.5 WAR for a pitcher. That’s 2 more holes they have to fill, all the while they can fill the SP slot with a number of guys.
I have nothing against Carrasco. I have everything against the Giants giving up guys like Panik and Belt for a position that they can sign elsewhere, even if for more money.
Wow. Those same Giants who just sunk 90 millions Big Ones into a guy with a career losing record you mean?
Those the same guys who don’t need any starting pitching past Bumgarner?
Who uses wins and loses to determine a pitchers value?
I didn’t say they don’t need a pitcher.
I said they don’t need to give up the entire left side of their infield to get a pitcher.
If you think Tomlinson and Susac would be adequate replacement over Belt and Panik, I’m not sure what to tell you. (Not to say anything bad about Tomlinson or Susac, but neither are on the same level of Belt or Panik).
Since nobody mentioned it yet, the Giants have already turned the page on Carrasco because, as Nate mentioned astutely, they aren’t giving up a gold glove, good hitting right side of the infield for Carrasco. I don’t think for Jose Fernandez either.
In addition, while their rotation is not anywhere near what it was back in the day when they were just winning their first championship, even with the limpy gimpy rotation that they had last season, when Pence was in the lineup, one of the rare times when most of the lineup was actually in the lineup, the Giants still went 34-17. The Giants have a very good offense, even without accounting for whatever Pagan does nor who they end up with in LF: Posey, Belt, Panik, Duffy, Crawford, Pence, that’s a great top 6 of hitters, plus whatever Pagan could do and either Blanco (who has been average every year with the Giants or an upgrade in LF.
The Giants, to me, appears to be in bargain hunting mode now, looking for a nice veteran desperate for a team to sign him, like Shields last season, Beltran after the 2011 season, someone still looking for a team in January, but maybe their QO is stopping teams from pulling the trigger, whereas the Giants already lost it with Samardzija.. That could be Leake, that could be Cueto, that could be Chen, that could be Cespedes, that could be Upton (could be a lot of Boras clients left in the cold because of his wait until last moment strategy) could be multiple, as they have enough money to push it if they wanted to.. Will be interesting.
I love the Indians rotation and think they’re #2 in MLB. That said, I think what you saw in 2015 from them all will be what you see going forward. Inconsistency with flashes of brilliance. Don’t see any of them turning a corner to become consistently dominant like a Greinke. Great value yes, upside, already reached IMO.
If Carrasco / Salazar / Bauer can take the next step.
They are probably the best.
The sad thing is is that they don’t have bats to go along with them.
Seems fair to me.
Only way I see Giants trading Panik is if they think his back will be a continuing issue. He’s pretty much untouchable. Can’t trade Belt… there aren’t any realistic options in the minors.
Buster Posey would play 1b and Susac would take over the catching duties. I don’t see Panik as a fit unless the Indians would then flip Kipnis or move Panik to 3rd.
Posey + Belt is a significantly better combo than Posey + Susac. And it’s not even close.
Giants don’t make the trade, under any circumstances.
“Cleveland would’ve used Panik at second and could’ve shifted Jason Kipnis to third. ”
I mean the article kind of answered this. Haha.
FYI, Giants have already stated that Panik’s issue was not structural, they knew what the problem was, put him through physical therapy to fix it, and training now to make sure it don’t happen again. They have publicly stated that this is not a long term thing, and thus they are not worried about it.
“A package like that may not have worked for the Indians since they wanted players that could help them immediately in 2016, and only Inciarte would’ve fit that bill.”
I would hope the Cleveland front office realizes they should make a trade like this regardless of what they’re looking for, and then flip Swanson and/or Blair for a ML ready player. They’re more that enough to get it done.
I agree with this. I was thinking they could do something along the lines of Carrasco, Chisenhall and Shaw to the Cubs for Hendricks, Soler, McKinney, Vogelbach and Edwards.
The Indians could then uses McKinney in a trade for Todd Frazier. Say Urshela, McKinney and Plutko for Frazier.
They would still need another OF, but I would prefer they go through FA for that. Perhaps Parra, Fowler or Jackson. If they want to trade for another one I would prefer Corey Dickerson from the Rockies.
I think a deal revolving around Salazar for Springer makes sense for both sides. The Indians would probably want Springer+ but what that + is would be interesting. Probably a high end prospect. The Indians would probably want AJ Reed. They have no one at 1b in the upper minors and lose Santana by the 2017 season.
Giants won’t trade Panic. If they trade for a SP, it would probably be a package with Susac to Atlanta for Julio Tehran.
In what universe is Shelby Miller a TOR arm?
The timeline where you didn’t ask
A deal centered around Frazier and/or Zimmer to the Reds for Frazier would make sense. There is Bruce, too, but I wonder if the Tribe has had their fill of swing-and-miss OF types (i.e. Moss).
Urshela, Frazier and Plutko would make sense and I could probably get on board with it. Would prefer the indians deal Salazar/Carrasco and use one of the prospects as a center peice for Frazier. Maybe a Billy McKinney from the Cubs.
Frazier, urshela, plutko for Todd Frazier. salazar for soler, McKinney, voglebach, Hammel.
Projected lineup would then be something like:
Kipnis 2b
Lindor ss
Frazier 3b
Santana 1b/dh
Soler rf
Gomes c
Vogelbach 1b/dh
Chisnehall/McKinney lf
Almonte cf
Rotation:
Kluber, carrasco, Bauer, Anderson, Hammel
This team should win central.
I would much prefer the Indians keep their big 3 SPs, as I am sure they would too. If they could manage Todd Frazier and Jay Bruce from the Reds, then acquire Alvarez or Chris Carter for DH/to spell at 1B. they would have a very formidable lineup. Would they strike out a lot? Sure. But with that pitching, man, they could win a lot of ballgames. They would kind of be a mix between the 2015 Blue Jays and Astros, but with better all-around starting pitching.
That’s Clint Frazier then Todd Frazier.
I would rather thrown in another peice with Salazar and get Hendricks instead of Hammel back. Maybe send almonte along with him as the Cubs need a CF. I would throw in Shaw as well to get it done.
The indians could then sign someone to play center. Probably parra.
Agree. I would think both teams do that trade and both teams would be better instantly. Naquin could then slot in as everyday cf or add a para/span/fowler in FA.