Mike Piazza’s induction into the Hall of Fame could help the cases for Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, writes Buster Olney of ESPN (Insider Only). With Piazza increasing from 57.8 percent to 83 percent of the vote in just four years, Olney figures that writers will need to consider the hypocrisy of their voting behavior. While Piazza (and fellow candidate Jeff Bagwell) are suspected by some writers of having used PEDs, Clemens and Bonds are known users. In my opinion, that will supply all the rationalization needed by intransigent writers.
On to current baseball news:
- The Orioles are the beneficiaries of the Denard Span signing. As one of the few teams with money and a pressing need in the outfield, they have leverage in talks with players like Justin Upton. Olney is not the first to wonder if Upton would sign a pillow contract to play with the Orioles. The Rangers are another team interested in Upton on a one-year contract.
- While Baltimore may eventually sign Chris Davis, some in the organization would like to reduce their seven-year, $150MM offer or simply move on to other players. To me, it seems as though Davis is playing a dangerous game of chicken. However, agent Scott Boras has successful navigated similar scenarios. One notable example is the Cardinals’ signing of Matt Holliday to a seven-year, $120MM deal prior to the 2010 season.
- In further Baltimore-related news, the club has “a lot of interest” in southpaw reliever Antonio Bastardo. He’s coming off a successful campaign with the Pirates. He posted a 2.98 ERA, 10.05 K/9 and 4.08 BB/9 in 57 innings – numbers similar to his career marks. As a fly ball pitcher, Bastardo may not be the best fit for the mostly small ball parks of the AL East. However, Bastardo did have success preventing home runs in Citizen’s Bank Park for most of his career. If the O’s inked Bastardo, they would probably trade fellow lefty Brian Matusz.
- The Giants would benefit from more roster depth, but they won’t use the free agent market to build it. Olney figures the club will explore trades for additional personnel.
I’m wondering who the Giants would trade for more roster depth. I would look to pick up one more outfielder and maybe a platoon infielder.
The Orioles are hardly the only “beneficiaries of the Denard Span signing”.
The same could easily be said in regards to the White Sox for both Justin Upton and Yoenis Cespedes. In addition to the Giants signing of free agent Span, the Nationals trade for Ben Revere seems to have eliminated another potential suitor for the two remaining premium FA’s this offseason. Imo, Chris Davis will re-sign with the Orioles, leaving Cespedes (my preference) or Upton to sign with the White Sox or other suitors, possibly the Tigers or Rangers.
It seems to me that if either Upton or Cespedes got to the point of considering a “pillow” contract, a host of teams might then enter the market. Any such deal would likely have either player hand picking their preferred destination to play. This scenario might then give the White Sox an edge with Cespedes, given their history with Cuban players dating back to Minnie Minoso and his friendship with slugger Jose Abreu.
My guess is Detroit’s heavy Latin lineup and history with Cespedes in 2015 would trump one player and a history lesson..
Maybe the braves will move Markakis put Olivera at 3rd til Austin Riley comes up and signs J-Up we give Prioles Markakis in trade we could sign Upton
i would think there could be at least 10-12 teams interested in Davis on a 1 year contract.
I agree that Davis is playing a dangerous game of chicken.. It could be smart for Baltimore to come back with a shorter deal for a little more AAV. Say 6/$132MM or 6/$138MM.. Give Boros 3 days and then go after Upton.or Cespedes.
Couldn’t the players (Upton and Cespedes) also stand to benefit from the Span signing too? They do lose some leverage in that they lose a potentially bidding team, but wouldn’t they also get some leverage back in that there are going to be less quality/everyday guys available? I understand that the players’ options get limited as more teams come off the board, but as more free agents come off the board, the amount of “backup” options lowers too.
That’s usually only if a team has a glaring open position and a lot of money to spend. Teams will say all the time they can do without player A, because of money or because of Prospect B.
Teams can wait until after the year to sign, but players need to get those reps in. The only time the situation which you mention becomes prominent is when there are a lot of teams with money and a big need. Then the agent can say Team C has all this money and they need Player A too.
” While Piazza (and fellow candidate Jeff Bagwell) are suspected by some writers of having used PEDs”
Piazza actually admitted this in his own biography. I wouldn’t say he’s Suspected of doing it. He Did.
Not that I care at all. I’m glad he’s in the HOF and he deserves it. I’m just saying he admitted to taking PED’s. He also wrote that he even asked his trainer about HGH , but his traner, very wisely was against that.
I hope Olney is correct
Perhaps Brad Johnson should have said “illegal PEDs” because Piazza said he only took andro, which was legal at that time. Andro is also not the same as anabolic steroids, the hard stuff that Bonds and Clemens took. Andro is to anabolic steroids like aspirin is to vicodin.
If Olney is saying Piazza is similar to those two, he is wrong. And if he thinks Bonds and Clemens will get into the HOF, I hope he will remain disappointed.
No Bonds or Clemens. If Rose/McGwire/Palmeiro are out then so should every other cheater. It’s sad enough Piazza got in especially after admitting to using otc PEDs.
Rose bet on baseball which was always illegal. And Palmeiro failed a test and was suspended for it.
Not saying Bonds and Clemens are innocent. Everyone knows they took something.
Right. I think the writers have to be able to have some sort of ability to separate. McGwire was a pretty one dimensional player, and it could be argued that steroids made him, so he’s out. The same could be said for Bonds. Clemens would have been a very good pitcher regardless of steroids so he should get in. Can’t deny everyone that took anything or is suspected of taking anything. Then it starts to turn into speculation about who was clean and who wasn’t. Piazza getting in is good news for anyone that played in that era.
Saying Bonds is a one dimensional player like McGwire is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. I fully believe They both took something but Bonds had 700 HR, 500 SB, 8 gold gloves and a career batting avg of .298, that’s pretty far from one dimensional.
Bonds one dimensional? Hahaha. You must be blind by hate. He had over 500 stolen bases and was also considered a solid defending outfielder.. While we all know he used something later on in his career to help him keep pace with the McGwire and Sosa home run bonanza, Bonds was a perennial 30/30 player before he took the substance, with great on base skills and really didn’t strike out much. Sure you can say he cheated and doesn’t belong in the HOF, but saying he was one dimensional like McGwire and is outrageous. Also, just as you said with Clemens, Bonds WAS a very great player regardless of steroids, and on a whole other level with steroids.
Well said
Well, McGwire claimed he didn’t start steroids until he used them to help him recover from the injuries that cost him most of his ’93 and ’94 seasons, yet he was already an excellent player before then, most notably ’92 and his rookie year of ’87. Would he have been Hall worthy without them? Who knows? I wouldn’t say the steroids made him, though. He’s also not as one-dimensional as you might think, as his massive OBP and SLG numbers in his prime were also the product of plenty of doubles and a ton of walks, plus he was a pretty good fielder who even won a Gold Glove at one point.
No McGwire would NOT have been HOF worthy without steroids. The HOF is based on careers and longevity not 1 or 2 great seasons. So 87 and 92 would have not been enough. Steroids saved his career. Due to injuries he was likely on his way to retirement.
Clemens was great before steroids. However it also prolonged his career. Clemens was probably borderline 50/50 shot at the HOF before but steroids carried him into what would have been a slam dunk first ballot HOF’er if not for the steroid use.
Bonds was probably the best of the 3 before steroids. GG defense along w 30/30 potential every year. He would have been able to get in without it. He unfortunately had an ego and wanted to be the “best” at that time and steroids were the answer. As a Braves fan I wonder how things would have gone if the trade that sent him to Atl didn’t fall through. Could being around Hank Aaron more kept him away from steroids. No one will ever know.
Clemens was 50/50? You have no idea what you are talking about. After 10 years, the minimum for induction into the HOF, Clemens career wins/loss was 163-86, essentially Sandy Koufax’s career record. He won 3 Cy Young’s, a League and All Star game MVP, Was in /selected for 5 AS games, lead the league in ERA 4 times, K”s twice, CG’s twice, SHO’s 5 times. If you want to add the newer stats he led WAR 3 times and WAR for pitchers 4 times., WHIP twice, Adjusted ERA 4 times and FIP 6 times. If he was only 50/50 in your opinion, I don’t know how you think any pitcher is worthy of induction.
As for McGwire, if you think he had only 2 great seasons then we interpret stats differently.
That Bonds wanted to be the “best” is not unique to Bonds, every athlete, really every person, wants to be the best at what they do. Some will do everything they can to achieve that others won’t.. I just read a writeup on Chuck Dobson, a guy who pitched in the late 60’s early 70’s when they were talking about greenies, Here is the relevant part:
That’s when Dobson publicly admitted that he had used amphetamines, otherwise known as “greenies” or “pep pills.” Already known for being frank and talkative, Dobson had become a little too honest in a recent interview with Bay Area writer Ron Bergman. Dobson told Bergman that he had used amphetamines not just once but on several occasions during his career.
This was a relatively new topic in baseball. It was only one year earlier that the first public disclosures of greenies had been made in Jim Bouton’s book, Ball Four. While Bouton used humor in referencing greenies, Dobson spoke matter-of-factly about a subject that had previously been considered taboo.
“I don’t see anything wrong in it,” Dobson told Bergman. “A lot of guys use them, and I’ve used them.” As Dobson explained to Bergman, amphetamines helped players overcome problems with fatigue, enabling them to play with more energy when they otherwise might be inclined to sit out games and rest. “Sometimes it makes you feel like you have more stuff than you really do.”
Dobson’s declaration did not shock players, who already knew all about greenies and their effects. Yet, it did upset Commissioner Bowie Kuhn, who was planning a drug abuse seminar in which he would warn all major league players about the importance of following both federal and state laws when it came to drug use. Although greenies were not considered illegal in the same way as a drug like cocaine, they were supposed to be obtained through prescription only. Any other usage constituted breaking the law.
When asked about the impending drug seminar, Dobson again pulled no punches. “If the commissioner says we can’t use them anymore, then the next time someone asks me whether I use them, I’ll say no, go around the corner and pop,” Dobson told The Sporting News. Once again, that was not what Kuhn or the rest of the baseball establishment wanted to hear.
Too late. Gaylord Perry has admitted to throwing spitballs, and I’m sure there are plenty of amphetamine users in the Hall as well. Throw in racist jerks like Ty Cobb, and the character clause has always been a complete joke until the PED issue came up. Aside from the guys like Pete Rose and Joe Jackson who were specifically banned for their gambling connections, they should just throw out that clause and let them all in. Besides, there’s bound to be some user who gets it just because he didn’t get caught. Hopefully, the Veteran’s Committee will do the right thing once McGwire is eligible for their vote.
Since andro was legal at the time Piazza took it, then how was that cheating?
I never said Piazza cheated. I said he took PED’s.
This comment you are replying to was a reply to todd76, not you
My fault. Scrolling through my phone. Hard to tell.
As a Jays fan, I want to see the Os competative… like any other team in the al east… However, I don’t like how Davis is holding the team up.. Sure the O’s owner is willing to wait a bit more, but I think time is running out and maybe they should sign someone else or move on from him..
Wondering what fellow Os fans think.
Why the Orioles are playing the waiting game baffles me. It’s one thing to wait for bargains at the end. It’s a completely different thing to have money to spend, but continue to watch others sign the quality, and be stuck without options at the end makes no sense.
Antonio B is not a good fit for the Orioles.
SMH I hope that rumor does not come to fruition.
As for Chris Davis, I am tired of the drama. He does not want to play for the Orioles.
I hope he goes elsewhere.
As for Upton, yes I want him. He’s grown on me and I hope he signs with them.
Although, I have not seen any ‘formal offers made yet.
Plus, if we get Upton, I want Gallardo signed.
I mean the O’s might as well.
“I want Gallardo signed.”
His ERA with the Rangers was very misleading. K/9 and BB/9 rates trended in the wrong direction, and his 0.7 HR/9 is also likely unsustainable. Moving to Camden Yards would be bad for both him and the Orioles. The last thing they need is another Ubaldo Jimenez-esque contract holding them back.
I wish the O’s would just sing Upton and move on from Davis we already have a 1b player next year
If the O’s splurge for one player, be satisfied.
Olney is a joke.
There’s a massive difference between proven – and – speculative.
It’s innocent till proven guilty, but if he wants this hypocrisy thing, then that’d have to be saying Clemens is in but not Bonds.
THAT’S hypocrisy.
Yes to one roids but no to the other.
Yes to an innocent and no to a user is not hypocrisy.
If we’re playing that game, then the whole era should be banned from the HOP since everyone can be ‘suspected’ till proven otherwise.
I wonder what Olney is talking about when he mentions the Giants improved depth would come from trades…
Personally, I see a need for a Super Utility player, which usually are not available from any team because they usually hold a lot of value.
The other option is to still get a starting OF and send Pagan packing in the trade…which I would prefer 🙂
Still get a starting OF? You realize hey signed Denard Span, right?
There really does need to be some line drawn about who gets in and who stays out of the Hall for cheating. Piazza admitted to PED useage but he got in. Bagwell on the other hand has only seen rumors surrounding him with no one actually directly accusing him and yet he’s still on the waiting list.
Then you also have the cases of Bonds, Clemens, and Palmiero. Of these 3, only Palmiero failed a drug test so in a sense despite a truckload of evidence against both Bonds and Clemens we really only have Palmiero dead to rights on violating the rules. So I think it needs to be now if you failed a test, in other words if it can be proven that you’re tainted then it can be held against you. Otherwise, it shouldn’t.
Piazza said he took andro, which was LEGAL at the time and is not the same as the anabolic steroids that Clemens and Bonds took ILLEGALY.
That “line” is going to be different for each person. It’s logical to draw that line at the point it becomes illegal, and between nutritional supplements and greenies and the really hard stuff like winstrol and deca-durabolin.
Do we know for certain that Clemens took anabolic steroids? (I’m not saying he Didn’t FWIW) Bonds I have a hard time not believing. That pic of him in Pittsburgh and him in SF says it all.
I believe that they should All be in. Word around the league that at least half the league was doing something. And there are plenty of mediocre/scrub players in that list too. Not just superstars
There is a TON of evidence, considered direct evidence from a legal standpoint, that Clemens took anabolic steroids for many years. And his lawsuit against his accuser was either dropped by him or dismissed by the judge. So, it’s about as clear as day that he was a serious roider – except to some PEDs apologists.
I don’t think the hardcore or significant roiders belong in the HOF because they distorted the record books in a gross way. As for guesstimates of how many MLB players roided up, they are all over the place. Some players said almost everyone did it. Other players like Jeter and Leiter said it was a small minority. And then you have the anonymous early testing which supports the latter group. Only about 7-8% of the tests were positive and there was no reason to stop at the time since the results were supposed to be anonymous and there was no punishment in place for any positive results.
Agreed
hold on now…you think greenies (as in amphetamines) are not “the really hard stuff” and not illegal? where is that “logical” line you want drawn, again?
Players have taken greenies for decades without having their bodies double in size, turnimg into the hulk, and toppling decades-old records with ease. They are not anabolic and don’t change muscle mass the way hardcore steroids do. Greenies are like amped up caffeine and are weak stuff. I know because I took them a few times decades ago.
So I draw the line at weak sauce vs hardcore stuff. I draw the line at hulk-inducing stuff. I’m glad lots of folks — those with HOF votes — have drawn their lines in a similar place.
Amphetamines are AT LEAST as important as steroids. You can be jacked to the gills, but all that power is utterly useless without an alert mind to properly direct it.
i see: because you’ve taken greenies and you’re not a bad person then they obviously cannot be villains either? the logical fallacies are strong with you.
without a prescription and an exception from the league, amphetamines are against the law just like steroids are against the law. amphetamines were tolerated and promoted in baseball for the interest of promoting an exciting game on the field – just like steroids were tolerated (and maybe even promoted) when baseball was losing popularity after the strike.
it also isn’t pure apples to apples when it comes to body effects – you also have to judge the sport-specific performance and how you enhance. In professional
cycling and especially in the Tour de France, riders have been caught cheating by injecting their own oxygenated blood, and that gives them an edge over other riders because at altitude you have trouble keeping up energy because of oxygen deprivation – but thin atmosphere and low oxygen at altitude it is exactly what makes it so hard to accomplish the ride.
in baseball one of the hardest things to do is to maintain the long, hard grind of playing almost every day for half a year…exhaustion causes attention deficit, impairs the reflexes and erases explosiveness, especially as you age. amphetamines helps you get that laser focus, extra energy and some of the explosiveness you lose when your adrenal system gets depleted (but at a huge long term neurological cost, not to mention the deleterious effects of alcohol abuse that usually goes hand in hand so that you can come down from the amphetamines you use to get up). it is a MAJOR performance enhancer, and (quite literally and immediately) gives abusers an edge over those who aren’t using them.
You cannot say that one is worse than the other…even if you tried them a few times yourself.
Nope. It has nothing to do with me being a good or bad person. Nor are greenies or any PEDs “villainous” in any way. I never said that. The reading incomprehension is strong with you.
I took greenies decades ago – quite a few times actually – and they are a relatively weak drug. They are not in the same ballpark as anabolic steroids. They are not even in the same league. And, most importantly I think, from a practical HOF perspective, there is no evidence that they helped the dozens of ballplayers who took them to break historic records that stood for decades. We have a lot of evidence that anabolic steroids did just that.
So that is why I put greenies in a completely different category than anabolic steroids. Not because I took them and am a good person, which I am … most of the time. ?
And, yes, we know greenies are illegal. But legality isn’t the only issue with steroids. Greenies are relatively innocuous. Speeding and not obeying traffic signs are illegal too. But they are not as bad as someone who repeatedly goes behind the wheel very drunk.
And, yes, different sports depend on different skills and abilities and therefore may benefit differently from different types of PEDs. But that’s rather irrelevant when it comes to anabolic steroids and this discussion. There is hardly an athlete in any sport who would tell you that anabolic steroids isn’t the gold standard for performance enhancement. And that includes cycling – as well as baseball, football, track and field, swimming, etc. etc.
One of the reasons blood doping is popular in cycling is not only because it helps endurance, but because it is harder to detect/catch. But if cyclists could only use one PEDs option and they could take anabolic steroids without penalty, I bet they would choose anabolic steroids.
And, sure, there is no debate that greenies can give an athlete an edge, just like a lot of other substances. But I disagree completely it is a “MAJOR” enhancer when compared to anabolic steroids. Heck, I think toradol is much more powerful than greenies in terms of giving baseball players an edge. Not to mention the use of Ritalin and various herbal supplements. But anabolic steroids are in a class by themselves.
Arnold was Arnold and Ben Johnson was Ben Johnson and Bonds was Bonds because of anabolic steroids. And if forced to come completely clean about their PEDs usage, I have no doubt they’d say anabolic steroids was the foundation of their most heralded achievements – not greenies or andro or any number of other pills, panaceas or procedures they likely liberally indulged in.
Why measure Boras’ successes without his failures. The year he had Drew and Morales hold out derailed Drew for good and cost him 10s of millions. Morales has recovered somewhat, but it still cost mucho dinero.
This is true. Boras doesn’t miss with top clients very often, but with the lower tiers… he can be hit-or-miss.
There is much more undeniable circumstantial evidence to suggest that Bagwell was a user of steroids than there is concerning Piazza. Bagwell went from a stringbean who couldn’t show gap power to a musclebound stud with magical HR power, overnight. Bagwell became a gymrat (something roid users must do to work off the violent tendencies hormone therapy produces). Piazza was always a power threat and a big boy. He learned to hit, to go along with his natural power. There are big contrasts between the two. I support the addition of Piazza but would never support the addition of Bagwell, and that position is not factually inconsistent.
If Upton sign a one year deal should be the best one year in MLB history only 28 he should have option for second year – go White Sox