Here’s the latest from the south side of Chicago…
- Robin Ventura was rumored to be done as the White Sox manager, and he confirmed it with reporters (including MLB.com’s Scott Merkin) after today’s game. “I just feel it’s the right time. It’s more of a personal decision than anything,” Ventura said. “I love being here. The organization means a lot to me. You can go as hard as you can and really the only thing you know is how you conduct your business and how you treat people. I’m good with that. Talking to [general manager] Rick [Hahn] through September, you just realize right now is the right time to do it and you need somebody else.”
- White Sox executive VP of baseball operations Kenny Williams is not stepping down from his position, WSCR 670’s Bruce Levine reports (Twitter link). Williams was promoted to his current role in October 2012 after a twelve-year stint as the White Sox general manager.
- The somewhat awkward handling of Ventura’s final days as manager is a sign that the White Sox need to settle on a clear chain of command within the organization, ESPN’s Buster Olney opines in his latest column for ESPN.com subscribers. Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf, who Olney calls “the most loyal boss in baseball,” needs to set a clear direction about whether or not the team is rebuilding or in go-for-it mode. It would also help solve some of the front office miscommunication by firmly establishing whether Williams or GM Rick Hahn is in charge of baseball operations.
the sox need to get rid of kenny
Yes Kenny must go
You can hate the work Ventura did as a manager but he and any manager deserve a better ending than the way this was handled.
Agreed that Ventura deserved much better then being pushed out which is obvious
No, he really didn’t. The only thing he “deserved” was to be shown the door earlier than this, but Jerry’s blind loyalty kept that from happening. By keeping him around for this long, the White Sox organization gave him MUCH more than he “deserved.”
Kenny gone… Ozzie back…
Kenny Williams is running this franchise into the ground. He has a man crush on base clogging big HR hitting types and will not give in to analytics. I feel like Hahn would do the smart thing for this organization and start over. Trade Sale, Quintana, Abreu, Frazier, Robertson….anybody with any value. If it’s up to Kenny we will go hard after Cargo or if he did trade Sale he would headline the trade with Jackie Bradley Jr.
They have 3 solid rotation pieces in Sale, Quintana, and Rodon. They have Fulmer in the minors ready to start next season, and the have Eaton, Anderson and Abreu to build around. They have Robertson at the back of the pen. They can still put a solid product on the field with a few solid moves. Ventura never got everything out of his players and made many bad moves. The clubhouse issues they had this year with Sale and LaRoche show he was never a leader of men that he needed to be.
I think the real problem is with advanced scouting and the intangibles that really make up the margins between .500 teams and playoff teams. Thats where the organizatiion lacks, which starts from the top. The Sox are horrible against their own division and that is completely unacceptable. That’s on Robin, but moreso the front office setting up the organization as a whole.
Exactly, why would you rebuild when you have talent like Sale, Quintana, Abreu, Anderson, Eaton, Frazier, Jones, Rodon, Burdi, and Fulmer? A team with this kind of talent does not rebuild. Reinsdorf needs to spend the money to put this team firmly into contention. This team needed some premium talent added to it last offseason, but instead went bargain bin shopping with the signings of Jackson, Latos, and Rollins. The White Sox are still one of the few teams to have not signed any player to $100 million contract. I am not saying they should just give them out to anybody, but that is the price you have to pay for premium talent.
Look at the most dominant team in the AL central the last five to ten years, the Tigers, they spend on premium talent and they win.
I Agree that Robin needed to go, but the front office set him up to fail with the players he was given. Who is going to win with Avila, Shuck, Rollins, Shields, Jackson, etc.?
If this was part of their “window of contention” how was it possible the biggest offseason signing you made was Austin Jackson? That is not ever going to get it done.
Where would you hope to start building your club? Up the middle. What do the Sox have there? No catcher to speak of until June 2018 if Collins pans out and sticks there. Second? Did Lawrie prove above average? CF? Nothing in the minors there either. Hopefully Fulmer sticks in the rotation then you have him, Rodon, Burdi, Adams, Anderson, and Collins to contend in a few years with the talent you get from a rebuild. These half-assed retooling jobs are going to be that much harder now with Shields anchor of a contract. Another one of Kenny Williams go-for-it now ill thought out moves.
I thought Lawrie, when healthy, played an above average 2nd base, Tilson might end up being a decent player in center, and I liked what I saw out of Narvaez. And there are always trades and free agents.
So you think this team should trade: Cabrera, Abreu, Frazier, Quintana, Lawrie, Jones, Robertson, Eaton in one offseason? Because there would be no need for any of these players if you are going to completely blow it up and rebuild. My point is any other major league team with this much high end talent pays big to supplement it, not blow it up for a bunch of lottery tickets.
People compare the White Sox situation to the Cubs, and that they should just rebuild the way the Cubs did. There situations could not be different.
1. The White Sox have way more talent then the Cubs did at the start of their rebuild.
2. The Cubs hit on almost ALL trades and draft picks. Very low probability of that happening.
3. The Cubs have spent big to supplement could drafts. (Lester, Heyward, zobrist, Lackey, etc.) White sox will not spend that big.
4. People show up to Wrigley no matter what. Not the case at the cell.
If you have Narvaez, Lawrie, Tilson, and Frazier you have three guys in your lineup that aren’t going to hit .250. I think Frazier’s BA will correct toward .250ish next year and he’s obviously a good hitter, run producer but you can’t have that many automatic outs in an everyday lineup. I’m not comparing them to the Cubs because I agree with most of your assessment that they hit on most every trade and draft pick and did well in the international market as well but the reason they can sign Heyward, Lester, etc. to ridiculous contracts is because they have stud kids under control for years. Not every prospect they would get via trade would pan out but they’ve tried the add pieces and hope to contend for two years now and it has failed. If they keep Sale and Quintana, two huge trade chips, and can’t even make the playoffs and get nothing for them then they’re going to be out of contention for some years to come. They’re in the worst spot possible. Trying to contend but not coming close to the playoffs. Why do you think teams are tanking nowadays? Baseball is going the way of controllable young talent.
But the White Sox really didn’t try that hard to supplement the talent on the team, because this past offseason their biggest free agent commitment went to Austin Jackson for 1 year $5mil. If you are going to it, that cannot be your biggest offseason signing.
The only thing the White Sox did this past offseason was ensure they would finish more in the middle of the pact. No time in recent memory has the team made an impact free agent signing(Jose Abreu not counting because he was an unknown). They always try to trade to retool, swapping talent, instead of just adding talent by signing free agents.
And please tell me what teams have won the world series because of tanking and rebuilding?
“but the reason they can sign Heyward, Lester, etc. to ridiculous contracts is because they have stud kids under control for years.”
That’s where you’re wrong. They can sign guys like Heyward and Lester to mega-contracts because they print money at Wrigley Field, even when the team is losing. That’s a HUGE difference between the Cubs and Sox. Even if the White Sox started hitting on a bunch of young positional talent like the Cubs have, they still wouldn’t be signing these mega-deals.
What the White Sox need is a change in organizational philosophy. They take a ton of crap about not developing position players (rightfully so), but the biggest problem is they generally don’t use top picks on positional talent; they use them to draft pitchers. Up until last draft, the only position players they’ve used a top 20 pick on since 2008 are Tim Anderson, Courtney Hawkins, and Gordon Beckham. Courtney Hawkins was an awful pick by Kenny Williams and his horrible idea to draft guys that looked like (or actually were) football players that could also play baseball. Beckham didn’t turn into what they hoped, but he’s a serviceable MLB player. Tim Anderson looks like he can be a very solid every day player, especially if he can get on base more frequently moving forward.
Look at the core young talent on the Cubs if you want to compare the 2 teams. They’ve used high draft picks, trades, and a lot of $$$ on the international market to build their positional talent. They aren’t turning mid-to-late round picks into MLB studs.
On the 40 man:
Contreras (int. signing)
Soler (int. signing)
Baez (9th overall pick)
Bryant (2nd overall pick)
Almora (6th overall pick)
Schwarber (4th overall pick)
Rizzo (trade)
Russell (trade – but 11th overall pick)
Top prospects:
Happ (9th overall pick)
Jimenez (int. signing)
Candelario (int. signing)
That’s a MASSIVE difference in philosophy between the 2 teams. I’m not claiming that the Sox are even close to the Cubs in terms of developing offensive talent, but the guys in charge of developing the top talent on the Cubs have a LOT more talent to work with. Even if you just focus on the draft picks instead of trades/signings, the entire core is made up of very high draft picks with a ton of talent. Even if half those guys fail, they’ll still have a great chance at building a solid core of young talent because they’ve taken so many bites out of the apple with their top draft picks. Yes, as of now, it looks like they’ve hit on an extremely high number of those picks, which is extremely impressive (and more than likely won’t happen for the White Sox or any other team for that matter), but the only way to have a real chance without relying on pure luck is to keep taking bites from the apple with those top picks. It seems like the White Sox are starting to make that shift based on last draft, but we’ll see.
Atlanta didn’t need to trade talent like Justin Upton, Jason Heyward, Evan Gattis, Craig Kimbrel, Jose Pereza, Alex Wood, Shelby Miller,and Andrelton Simmons to go along with Julio Teheran and Freddie Freeman, but they bit the bullet and did what was best for the franchise. So far, it’s looking like it worked. A good core is great, but in order to win for an extended period of time you need a great 25 with a good infusion of talent from the farm. The White Sox don’t have that, and by the time they could, this current core will be more expensive or some of it will be gone.
Sale and Quintana are far superior talents to anyone you just listed that the braves traded away. Upton and Heyward were both traded a year before free agency because they knew they could not sign them. The shelby Miller trade was a once in a decade return done by the inept Diamonbacks front office, and they sold high on simmons who is a one diminutional player.
The White Sox have three plus years left of cheap team control of Sale, Quintana, Eaton, and Abreu. There is no real pressing time restraints forcing their hand. If I am the White Sox, I try to take advantage of that, not waste it for lottery tickets.
Also, you have no idea how it will fair for the Braves until they turn their record around.
I may be different, but I would never be in favor of watching my team loose purposefully for three plus years, for a chance to maybe be good. I mean look in the White Sox division, the Minnesota Twins have lost ninety plus games five of the last six years receiving high draft picks. I don’t see them turning it around anytime soon. Not every team can be the Cubs. What other teams tanking have lead to any real success? And the Cubs haven’t won anything yet.
Digging what you are laying down here man. From one Sox fan to another, you totally get it.
This is exceptionally well said. So kudos to you. No clue why Cub fans come in here to comment on Sox stuff. Worry about your team.
They’re not that far away from contending. They should sign one of the big three relievers, get a hellickson type back of the rotation starter, and acquire a catcher through trade or free agency. This might not put them over the top, but it would give them a chance to battle for a postseason spot
I’m all for a white sox rebuild. This organizations inability to evaluate talent, develop, scout it, and trade/sign FA’s is frightening. Hard to trust that the given upper management would make collectively educated moves. I don’t trust them. I wish Kenny had left for Toronto, and Jerry to just sell the team already. The white sox are so far behind in so many ways.
You keep saying the biggest FA signing was Austin Jackson but you cannot dismiss the trades for Shields (and his silly contract) Lawrie and Frazier. That on top of last offseason signings of Robertson, Cabrera. Where has all of this gotten them? Not even a .500 team. Part of the issue is that you have two great pitchers and Eaton, Frazier, and Abreu who I would consider regulars on a first place club. What else? They are a long way away from having enough position players to consider going for it again in my opinion. They also have a bottom quarter of the league farm that will offer them no help. Maybe the whole idea that tanking hasn’t won anything could be a correct assessment but at least those teams have a direction, my White Sox do not. Think of the teams that value a farm system and spending on international signings Texas, San Francisco, St. Louis. These are teams with sustained success recently. Long gone are the days of the Yankees throwing big dollars at free agents and having no farm and winning championships. The other thing that comes in to play is what kind of shape are they in if Sale or Quintana go down with injury? With the rate of pitcher injury nowadays I worry that Sale especially could be a possible injury risk although he has stayed somewhat injury free beside short rests for soreness through his career. You mention the Twins. How much better have the Sox fared than Minnesota? They are actually in the middle of a rebuild and I feel like they will be closer to contention in a year or two than the Sox at this rate.
You honestly trust this front office to pick out premium minor league talent in all of these trades, knowing already many prospects do not live up to expectations. So say you trade all these players, maybe you will be lucky and have exactly as much high end talent as you started with. And then what has that improved?
Look, at some point, Kenny and Jerry have to acknowledge the elephant in the room: the Sox aren’t willing or able to commit to acquiring high-value free agents.
With that fact in mind, they must shift their focus to restocking the farm system. This is not even debatable, folks. All the so-called talent on this roster has not translated into gains in the win column.
Every year the Sox fill the roster with low-value retreads sets the organization back a few seasons. Reason being, contracts on mediocre veteran players are nearly impossible to move. So the Sox are stuck paying guys that have zero trade value. They’re essentially throwing money away on depreciating assets. Not only is it a stupid way to run baseball operations(Kenny), it deprives you of any flexibility in the future. All things considered, a deep and significant rebuild of the roster at all levels of the organization is overdue. Like the Cubs, the Sox must exercise patience in this process (3 to 5 years) in order to do it right.
I agree. The way they’ve been operating is unsustainable. The Shields trade still blows my mind and proved to me that they don’t need to keep up this desperate push all-in to win now. I honestly feel like most Sox fans would be in favor of a well thought out rebuild right now.
What teams that go into full rebuild mode have had any type of real success?
People act as if we trade Sale, Quintana, Abreu, etc that we are going to get sure fire stud players. When in reality we could gut our team, be terrible for four or five years, and end up back where we started.
The consistently good teams spend on payroll, draft well, and spend on the international market. The White Sox do none of these things. That is why you even get to a situation where you do a full rebuild.
Why did that trade “blow your mind”? Everyone knows that the White Sox organization, as currently constructed, is not rebuilding. For some reason, they are trying to win baseball games. They gave up absolutely nothing of value to get him, and half his contract is being paid for by the Padres (assuming he doesn’t retire or leave in FA). Has the trade worked out for the Sox? Absolutely not. Would their outlook be any different if they didn’t make the trade? Absolutely not. It was a pretty blah trade. I don’t know why it would “blow your mind.”
San Diego is not paying all of “Big Game” James salary are they? And yeah seeing as how they traded for a aging 4.50 ERA in a pretty good pitchers park that just had given up 12 ER in a 2 1/3 inning start to Seattle right after he served up Bartolo’s first career HR a start earlier…so yeah I was surprised at the need for that. Hell I’d have rather tried to roll Erik Johnson out there. And this is my problem. Why keep going after retreads that for the most part are no better than replacement level.
I don’t necessarily think there’s only one blueprint on building a consistent winner. But here’s one for you. Build up talent through farm of a bunch of contact type low K hitting And three power arms at the back of your bullpen. And then, holy shit, maybe you can trade a little of your farm talent for a front line starter for the playoff run…all without any big FA spending. See Kansas City Royals
I don’t necessarily think there’s only one blueprint on building a consistent winner. But here’s one for you. Build up talent through farm of a bunch of contact type low K hitting And three power arms at the back of your bullpen. And then, maybe you can trade a little of your farm talent for a front line starter for the playoff run…all without any big FA spending. See Kansas City Royals
Did you see their last draft? That’s pretty much exactly what they attempted to do…
Exactly. And the position players from the last draft have done well so far. My point was that it’s time the front office (Kenny Williams) has a change in philosophy of base clogging sluggers and draft high OBP types.
The royals had a good run, but if people want sustained success like we always hear the Royals blue print is not the way to go. They had a very good team for two years, and that will most likely be it. This year they were average, and I see more of the same in the future, unless they spend big time to keep all of their players (Moose, Hosmer, Davis, Cain).
The White Sox could be every much the same team as the Tigers. And I know they have not won a world series, but they have been consistently good team for around a decade, and given themselves a chance to in one.
The difference is in the ownership. Illitch wants to win, Reinsdorf wants to make money. Jerry is in his 80, and can’t take all that money with him. Why not push payroll to $150 million for a few seasons with Sale, Quintana, Abreu, Eaton, etc.
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I also do not get the narrative that you have to trade Sale, Quintana, etc. now. How many players with that type of talent and term on contract get traded? If things don’t work two years down the road, after truly going for it, fine trade them then. The Sox would still get a huge return.
Also, I honestly do not think the Sox could get a fair return right now, considering how good Sale’s and Quintana’s contracts are.
While I do agree with you 100%, you are taking the HUGE risk that neither suffers a major injury. The amount of pitchers that go down with major injuries is pretty significant these days. If that happens, there’s a chance they bounce back and are fine, but there’s also a chance you won’t get anything from them or for them. The Sox have to decide if it’s worth the risk.
I have no problem with the decision either way; I completely understand both sides. If it were up to me, I’d dangle both players on the market at the winter meetings and see what’s offered. If someone is willing to give up a ridiculous amount of top talent (including major league ready players), then I’d make the move. If they aren’t willing to overpay and make everyone think WTF, then don’t do it. Like you said, they don’t NEED to trade either of them.
They may not need to trade either right now. I would agree with that but I do not agree that if they go for it for the next two years the value of the aces doesn’t change much. Like you said their talent and their contract is a huge value, if you give up two years of that control you lose value back. I also feel like scouting today versus yesteryear is quite different. Obviously not all hits and no busts but I think the percentage would be way down from say 10-15 years ago.
build the team around saladino
i am not joking
He is a good bench player, average starter at best.
Lol I love that you have to add “I am not joking” at the end. I think that says enough about the idea…