Some more rumblings on the market for relievers…
- Prior to this afternoon’s agreement between the Phillies and righty David Robertson, WEEI’s Rob Bradford offered a bit of clarity on the market for Craig Kimbrel. As of this morning, the star closer’s market “seemed to hinge” on whether or not the Phillies would be able to secure the services of either Bryce Harper or Manny Machado. Either signing, it seemed, would move Kimbrel off the table for Philadelphia, though today’s inking of Robertson may have done just that. Boston, then, seems a clear favorite for the 30-year-old fireballer, with Atlanta still lurking at the fringes, but the “stupid-money”-wielding Fightins can’t entirely be ruled out.
- The Mets have some interest in right-hander Adam Warren, reports SNY’s Andy Martino (Twitter links), but a match between the two sides doesn’t appear to be that likely at the moment. Warren, according to Martino, has stronger interest from other clubs, and the Mets are exploring several different bullpen options, including left-hander Justin Wilson. The 31-year-old Warren has a 2.72 ERA in 109 innings across the past two seasons and is accustomed to pitching in multi-inning stints in relief, thus making him an appealing option for many clubs. Wilson, meanwhile, has posted solid ERA marks and huge strikeout totals over the past couple of seasons but has seen his control of the strike zone completely evaporate (5.43 BB/9).
- Per Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic, the Angels “prefer” to assemble bullpen pieces of the low-cost variety. With hardly a household name in the bunch, early-offseason speculation abounded with respect to Los Angeles and top-market pen arms, but signings of the type don’t appear to be in the cards for Billy Eppler and crew this offseason. Top 2018 perfomer Jose Alvarez has already been shipped to Philadelphia, so the Angels will likely rely on some assortment of Taylor Cole, Luis Garcia, Ty Buttrey, Hansel Robles, Cam Bedrosian, and Justin Anderson (all of whom, save for Robles during his stint with the Mets, excelled at limiting the homer last season) to hold down the team’s fort in the late innings.
Wilson should go back to Yankees & they need bull pen help. Dave Dombrowski traded for him so going to Boston is a possibility. But low candidate with high return possible.
Chapman, Britton, Betances,Green and Holder?
Thsts the last team in baseball that needs bullpen help.
Then what is Eppler going to spend money on?
How about Grandal, or bring back Maldo. Another starting pitcher maybe? There is not a lot left moneywise. At least I don’t think so.
grandal cannot block any low pitches.
Grandal was suspended for PED use. It’s not a player Moreno usually brings in.
He threw a fit when Hamilton used cocaine for a night. As far as a baseball crime, that’s far down the list of a PED user.
Moreno was furious with Mathews after he was caught with HGH. I never expected Grandal.
Grandal won’t be worth the contract he’ll probably get, and Maldo is fairly redundant with Lucroy now in the fold. Neither of them will hit much anymore, and Maldo is a better defender, but I’d imagine Lucroy will be the starter.
I still think the Angels should stockpile as many low-cost depth options for the rotation as they possibly can. They’ve spent a little bit to get Harvey and Cahill, and I think a few more guys of that type (Gio Gonzalez, etc.) would be prudent for the inevitable injuries their rotation will deal with. Their main goal should be to not rely on guys like Odrisamer Despaigne to start any more games.
Odrisamer Despaigne… I threw up in mouth a little with I read that name.
You mean you don’t want nine starts and a 7.16 ERA from a Lincecum.
Hard to believe I got in a disagreement without someone on this board about the Angels pitching injuries not costing them.
Their pitching injuries absolutely sunk them. They’ve got some really good pieces in their lineup, but it seems like every year their lack of depth is what kills them.
I remember that mac. I was part of it. He was serious with stats and everything.
hitters that are going to post 0.1war?
I doubt much. This year clearly looks like a holding pattern while Adell, Canning, Suarez, Sandoval, and Rengifo get their last AAA seasoning.
and when they all come up? are those rookies going to lead the team deep into the postseason?
The rookies won’t, but they sure will help Trout, Ohtani, Simmons, Upton and co.
without a proper pen? and just barely decent enough rotation? doubt it!
There’s decent upside in the bullpen. Buttrey looks legit, Robles changed his pitch usage and had good results and there are several bullpen arms that are close to MLB ready if not already so.
Bullpens are volatile. Hard to say what you have in January. Could be good, could be bad, but Eppler has acquired a lot of high velocity guys,
I agree, bullpens are volatile, which is why you need a Veteran. Which is why you need one dependable go-to-guy. Which is why that one dependable go-to-guy makes EVERYONE better. .
This is a MASSIVE mistake.
Your post is a MASSIVE mistake.
maybe, you were a tiny mistake!
Meyer is back too.
no not til about 2024
yes. plus you never know. 2 of them may b star caliber
high velo. high griundball rate. lots of missed bats
Agree with you again Mac. I’m optimistic about a few of the guys in there rising up, but you still want that guy you feel good about going to and the other guys can feed off of. How many more games do we win the last two years with Kimbrel? We still don’t make it, but wins create momentum too. Perhaps all these two year deals will allow more of a value bet. I really hoped it was going to be Robertson but knew that was a long shot. There are still some good ones out there.
For any other team, I think that’s a solid strategy. They’ve got some intriguing prospects coming up, and letting them develop is a smart move.
But it seems like they’re getting too complacent and not really acknowledging that Trout only has two years left on his deal. Maybe he’ll stay, but they don’t really seem to show any urgency.
I was thinking they were being passive and going to wait for Harper and Machado to sign and then try to extend Trout based on their salaries as a starting point. Then fill in the holes aggressively if he extends. But I think it’s gone past that point and agree they are being too complacent. At this point I would hope to see them adding pitching depth.
it seems that dumping alverts salary or going over tax is only way as it stands
could be right
They can’t dump Albert’s salary. It’s a guaranteed contract.
I believe Trout will be gone and the team knows it.
It they are out of it by July, they start a full on youth movement. This is why so many 1 year deals. Trout traded, alone with Harvey, Cahill…
I would package Simmons for someone who could be a 1 or at least a high 2, move Cozart to SS, and sign a decent 3b and 2b and make a run at it now
Explain why it makes sense to get rid of Trout (the best player in history) and Simmons (the best shortstop in the game) and replace them with players who are not as good and say that’s a good plan, when in the alternative, you can build around the best core in baseball like Eppler is doing. I’ve tried to work through your idea in my mind and I can’t make it make any sense at all…and forget baseball. Take any industry in the world and apply the principle of getting rid of your proven best performers and replacing them with unproven or worse performers. Please help me understand your specific logic.
Angels are losing with both of them and paying big bucks. They can lose without them, save money and start a rebuild.
An inordinate amount of pitching injuries over several seasons – that’s why they have been losing. Eppler is appropriately adding depth to the rotation and hopefully the new regime has looked into changing some things in the conditioning program.
I’m not saying i want this. What i’m saying is the current moves are designed if they do not work, 1 year deals, they will move players mid season. Trout will not extend his contract at this rate.
The best chance to win now is improve SP and the only way now is trade quality for quality. I don’t want to trade Trout but SS is a position of quality they are able to trade from and maybe get a strong SP.
The Angels have lost out on their FA targets and seem to be using plan C.
Unless you have an inside scoop as to what plans A and B were, then everything you say is conjecture. Neither Trout nor Simmons will be going anywhere. Eppler is building the depth necessary to compete now. I believe they will be making the playoffs this season. Of course that’s my conjecture!
Justin Andersen is more than ready and Middleton will be ready May or june.
ith ought ?iddleton had the tools to close. such a bummer on that inhury
right
Not a huge fan of Ottavino on a multi-year deal, I’d rather see the Yanks try to sign Britton and bring back Warren for a third tenure in the Pinstripes.
I agree, I wonder what would it take tk get Warren?
He’s a free agent, so it’s just money. I would probably offer either a 2 year deal or 1 year guaranteed with an optional second year (that could vest based on performance/innings).
Well, according to this blurb the Halos may stay inhouse.
angels fan here and I say are bullpen looks like garbage right now .
I completely agree with you. It is going to be another long painful season. The Angels will lead the majors in blown saves again.
Don’t forget that come June we get Middleton back… No guarantee that he is his old self but it will be good to have him back. Remember the great start they had last year? I think Middleton was a big contributor to that.
what? bring back jim johnson and blake parker not
I think Buttrey will be really good. Huge fastball, change up that is now a plus pitch. I also think the most intriguing arms are near MLB ready in Hanewich, Rhoades, and the return of Jewell.
Bullpens are volatile. The Rockies spent a ton on bullpen arms last year and most the big names weren’t even on their playoff roster.
bullpens may be volatile but bad pitchers don’t suddenly pitch like closers.
You see Ottavino’s numbers prior to last year? Bud Norris as a starter? Yes, bullpen arms come out of seemingly nowhere all the time. About as often as big name guys get money then fall off.
Buttrey was a solid prospect who is coming into his prime. Hanewhich and Rhoades have huge K/9 numbers. These aren’t bad pitchers, just unknown to casual fans.
At some point, they need a shot to prove themselves.
Adam Ottavino:
2012 (1st full season): 4.56 ERA in 79 IP (3.85 FiP) 9.2 SO/9
2013: 2.64 ERA in 78.1 IP (3.15 FiP) 9.0 SO/9
2014: 3.60 ERA in 65 IP (3.10 FiP) 9.7 SO/9
2015: Tommy John surgery (it’s been said it takes 1.5 years to get back to full speed for many post-op pitchers – he was 29 at time of surgery, so I’d expect longer healing time than other younger pitchers)
2018: 2.43 ERA in 77.2 IP (2.74 FiP) 13.0 SO/9
2018 also saw a radical decrease in hits/9 and small decrease in walks resulting in a 0.99 WHIP – his lowest in a full season of work. He has a history of control issues, but now he’s striking people out at a high-rate making his upside possibly worth the risk. Going against him are his age (32), though you could make an argument that 2 injury-shortened seasons and not having his 1st full MLB season until age-26 could mean there’s less mileage on that arm/shoulder. That’s a pretty good fallback for a team in need of a backend arm.
playing well in the walk year is as old as free agency.
@ Vizionaire;
Yes, like Bryce Harper this year.
So how many weeks have you been following MLB?
since when you were a microscopic tadpole in yo’r papa?
Totally disagree. it worked out GREAT for Mariano Rivera! He went from a TOTAL BUST as a starting pitcher to a possible unanimous HOF relief pitcher/ closer!
Very concerned. Halos BP were ranked 20th in WAR last year. Full season with Buttrey, Robles, Anderson, Cole, Cam, Noe look to duplicate that. Garcia and JC could help, but don’t bank on it. That leaves Pena who’s a fringe starter. Parker/Johnson anyone?.
I’m right there with you.
This offseason is moving way to slow.
Compared to last year, this year is like NSD every other day.
Wouldn’t mind seeing Warren back on the yankees.
In otherwords angels are gonna suck this year too
We’d be winning the offseason if it was 2015, sadly. Harvey, Lucroy, Cahill…..great back then but not so much now.
Would love to see the Mets add Wilson
Atlanta 2018 revenue through the first 3 quarters was $410 million
Currently they’re projected opening day payroll according to baseball reference after estimating arb cases is $110 (down from $118 opening day payroll last year after coming off a 2017 revenue of just $336 million)
So our payroll has effectively dropped $8 mil (at least currently projected) in spite of a major increase in revenue (only through 9 months at that)
And we don’t have enough to sign Kimbrel to address the weakest aspect of our team, the bullpen?
Just let that sink in Braves fans. I’m not giving this team any more money if they don’t upgrade the bullpen for 2019. We’re projected to be dead last in percent of revenue spent for opening day payroll in 2019.
This doesn’t sound like an organization that cares to win to me
A rough estimation of the final quarter is likely around $30-40 mil putting them close to $450 in revenue for the 2018 year if anyone wants an estimated yearly total to see how pathetic this organization has been signing free agents this offseason
Signing Kimbrel to an insane contract isn’t the answer. If you want to bail, bail… No way am I a fan of Kimbrel for 6/$100mill. Contracts for free agents are at stupid level and so is the trade market. AA is being smart not blowing his wad. They have plenty of upside pitching to fill holes in the pen or make the trades they need but it’s going to take patience. I’m a little miffed they didn’t approach Miller or Robertson but than again maybe neither wanted to play for Atlanta.
It’s not just Kimbrel. They’re not signing anybody.
Yeah I personally want Kimbrel but if they had gone a different route and at least brought in a cheaper but still top tier market option then fine. Familia, Robertson, Miller we passed on them all.
Not to mention we skimped on Grandal for McCann.
You talk about me bailing as if it’s a bad thing. Better that than sit around giving money to an organization that doesn’t truly want to contend.
We had MAJOR holes at catcher and bullpen and clearly money to spend and a team that claims it’s ready to contend
What do we get? Brian McCann and reports we’ll address our bullpen internally.
Because our internal options fared so well last year.
This is joke plain and simple. So if you want to keep pumping money at an organization ranking dead last in percent of revenue spent that’s spinning lies to the fan base it expects to contend you go right ahead.
There’s still time for them to make it right but if they don’t I’m out and encourage others to do the same. Ball is in their court now. The team has done its part to get here now Liberty Media needs to give the resources to support the growth, not just pocket everything.
Hero
The Braves could gain back control of the division if they spent this off-season bc of all of the the young/controllable guys they promoted and still have ready to come up. I’ve watched the Mets piss away great pitching bc they were too cheap, and unfortunately I can see ATL doing the same thing if they aren’t more willing to spend.
Market is not done yet, you still have reasonable options for backend RPs inc: Cody Allen, Adam Ottavino, Zach Britton, Kelvin Herrera, Hunter Strickland. I’d definitely trust Ottavino, Britton, Herrera more so than Vizcaino/Minter for a season – and would reservations about Allen/Strickland, but they could possibly be upgrades as well.
That’s not even mentioning Benoit, Greg Holland, Ryan Madson, Bud Norris, Sergio Romo.
Talking about bailing on a team is ridiculous. Just cause they haven’t done what you want them to do? Honestly I’m most anxious about how AA will fill RF. We actually have a TON of internal options in the form of youngsters such as Gohara or Fried if they are not traded before then. Dodgers did the same thing with Buehler in 17 to great success. As much as I hate no action, and don’t see why Braves wouldn’t trade some prospects that have created a log jam at AAA, I choose to trust the method. I just hope they don’t wait too long. It might create some deals for people and it might cause us to lose out on others for lack of action.
Kimbrel max is 5 for $85m (Chapman money) but really see 3 X $18-20m where he sets a yearly average record. Maybe $18m x 3 + a 4th year option with a $6m buyout so the minimum he gets his $60m over 3.
If the RS happen to sign Ottavino, Kimbrel’s market will crash.. to about the 3yr $50M range.. with a 4th year option..
Same as selling your house..ask for too much in the beginning and the market passes you buy..price it right and get multiple offers..
And on top of it Kimbrel could actually end up playing for a team and living in a place not so much as by choice but by default.. 6yrs $100M pffft.
You do understand that the Braves have more expenses than just player salaries, right? Just the travel portion including expenses and per firm on the road for 50 people must be ungodly. Don’t forget the tens of millions spent on the medical team and trainers, facilities, farm clubs etc. I’d like to see the EBIT from these baseball franchises. I’m sure it is much lower than you think.
Ron all teams have the same expenses. MJ’s point still stands.The Braves are not putting in the amount of money there revenue requires. Also its not like the Braves have been giving there fans a quality product for years. Several years ago Braves management claimed they would rebuild and then spend when the time was right.I’m not a Braves fan but right now the time is right for the Braves
Ok, so the time is right, what would YOU have done differently at this point?
Used some of our prospects and the available payroll space to fill the holes on this team. That is AA’s job. And it is not as if a guy like Brantley got a huge sum. It is not as if any of the RP have made a ton either.
Welcome to being a Mets’ fan since Madoff…raking in money, but penny pinching.
@ MJ
I’m sure they will miss you.
Me? No. But enough people? Yeah. But people have to be aware of the truth to make their own informed decision. I’m just putting the info out there for everyone to make their own choice whether it aligns with mine or not.
Stay mad.
As I said though there’s still time for them to do something. But if they do nothing they deserve what they get if people start abandoning them.
I spent plenty of years through a rebuild so this isn’t some unwillingness to support them. But when the time comes to win ( and spend) like it has its Liberty Media’s turn to show they plan to try for real, not just pretend. I’m not asking them to spend 100% of revenue here. But they could bump payroll up to $150 mil for opening day and they’d still be lower half of revenue percent spent. And that’s totally fine! $150 would be more than enough to get the pieces they genuinely need. Even $130-140 might be. But what they’re doing right now is not. Simple as that.
@MJ
So, as they move from last to first, you think now is the time to abandon ship? Just because they get some money doesn’t mean they have to spend it on the FAs that happen to be out there. If they don’t like the prices, don’t pay them.
It’s January 3rd, not April 3rd.
I’m not sure why you’re so upset right now when the market is normally slow at this point. AA has shown no desire to overpay on any one player or arm.
Also, not sure why you think an empty threat to Atlanta matters. They have to repay the loans for the stadium as well, there are other expenses as well.
If you’re wanting a team to just spend stupid money, Atlanta isn’t the team for you.
It’s not a threat. It’s just a post providing transparent information.
If you view it as threatening to Atlanta than that info must strike fairly unacceptable on some level to you. Everyone is free to evaluate that post however they want.
When someone does evaluate your post, you seem to feel a need to repeat what was just evaluated. Why is that?
Kimbrel hasn’t signed anywhere yet. The Braves may just be waiting for him to lower his demands to a reasonable level. If he gets to around 5/75 then I can definitely see the Braves jumping in.
I agree with you. The Braves flat out lied about what the payroll was going to range once they moved. All of this pretending that they did not figure in debt service is pure b.s.
But the new analytics say that relief pitchers are “too variable” so teams should not invest resources in the pen. To me it is a question of how much a team values winning.
That said, none of the RPs have signed for outrageous sums so far this offseason.
Too bad Coppy was a crook because there was zero doubt that he wanted to win and would find a way even with budget constraints. So far AA has not told us his vision. I’ve never seen a GM get so much applause for doing so little.
just barely enough rotation with garbage pen spells trout’s trade. epp will be the guy trading trout and he will never be a g.m. again.
They are working on extension numbers for Trout now, so…
i am sure. the public just does not know details yet.
i will be so sad. let albert go and bring on top fas
Happy Phillies aren’t going after Kimbrel. It would feel like Pappelbon 2.0
Matt Klentak really needs to get some credit for this off-season as he has made some fantastic moves.
Signing McCutchen- My only gripe is that it was a slight overpay with regards to $ but it is still an excellent signing.
Garcia for Alvarez – I’ve had enough of Luis Garcia for one lifetime. This could be a very solid under the radar move.
Signing Robertson – Great reliever on an excellent contact.
Aquirng Segura, Pazos, and Nicasio for Santana and Crawford – An excellent SS, a young controllable lefty, and solid vet who is a bounce back candida if I ever saw one. Sure we lost Crawford but our defense got better two fold (Segura at SS, Hoskins to 1B) and we dumped Santana’s contract all in one trade.
Klentak has basically won both trades and added impact talent for three years or less with every free agent signing. There really has been nothing “stupid” about any of these moves and I couldn’t be happier.
I really liked the Segura trade. Crawford isn’t nearly the same asset he used to be, and even if he is they still got a really good shortstop in return. That they were able to dump Santana and get two decent relievers back is even more impressive.
Plus I’m an Indians fan, so that helped get Santana back to Cleveland. I love him, but he was just a terrible fit for the Phillies.
Warren was so underrated here in the Bronx. He is a excellent multi inning guy who has late inning experience too. I would love him back here
i think this austerity measure comes from arte. he must have a granddaughter going to private school!
Kimbrel. 4 years 60 million. Thats it
The Angels are NUTS if they think they can enter the season without an established bullpen guy.
It doesn’t matter if they have all the talent in the world. They need a Veteran down there. They did the same stupid thing last year. They need to buy a vowel, AND buy a relief pitcher.
Adam Warren would probably be a good addition for the Angels. If they’re not making anymore additions to the rotation and looking for reasonably cheap bullpen arms, then having a guy capable of multi inning appearances with a solid track record would seem to make sense.
He should be a steal for whoever signs him, as I doubt he gets more than 2yr or goes over $10m AAV. Having a 3rd yr club option w a small buyout of $2m could also be solid.
Warren stinks when he isn’t wearing a Yankees uniform. He is like baseball’s version of Green Lantern.
What are the chances the braves can get Cam Bedrosian? I would love to have him come back home and he would be exactly what the braves need in their bullpen right now. If so, at what cost? Think we can give them a solid prospect and a current bullpen guy for him? Maybe some cash?
My Halos are like, ‘let’s just have a worse team than last year and see if a deferent result happens’
If they get a 125 starts from their top five starters, they’ll be much better, however…not only is that a big if, not having a veteran in the pen is an unforced error that they didn’t have to make.
Eppler made the same mistake last year. You would think he learned a lesson. But he didn’t.
we could have been in on someone that signed elsewgete
i know its bleak but at same time money us the issue. i say spend now
Phillies have no idea what they’re doing, as usual.
Says the Chicago White Sox fan. Priceless…
Get rid of these ads playing music, and turn into fulls teen ads making me have to close app to get out of them please and thank you.
Angels should go out and get Kelvin Herrera
It didn’t work the first time around but I wouldn’t mind seeing the Cubs go after Warren. Could use s good multi inning RP
Don’t the Angles need a LH RP? At least one?
At least a Tony Sipp…. At least. Although I would much prefer a Zack Britton. It can’t stand “as is”.
3 million fans no matter what the f/o does.
They spend money, They just think that a bullpen magically puts itself together.
It doesn’t. At least good teams know it doesn’t.
When the Angels won in 2002, they may have had the best pen in baseball, that’s why they won.
Wrong.
what’s wrong? no postseason wins for a decade? do the angels look like a championship contender? wrong!
krod came out of nowhere. they had scot shields too. and others. wow
Scot Shields was the most valuable pitcher Mike Scioscia ever had. Sports Illustrated had him the setup up man of the decade.
Scioscia had no idea how to manage a pen. For most of the decade, Shields saved his bacon.
K_Rod didn’t come out of nowhere. They knew about him. He just came on fast. He was still so young they didn’t have to put him on the 40 man roster. In 2002 they converted him to an RP and he took off. He was a star in the minor leagues in 2002 pitching 40 innings at AA and 40 innings at AAA.
Bedrock Jr. had one nasty year for the Halos but has slipped back into mediocrity since.
writer for Angelswin blog wrote a good analysis of the Eppler strategy for the next few seasons.
Who do the halos have in the minirs asfar as catching?
I agree that Boston is likely to get Kimbrel back in 2019.
The QO is a factor here in 2019 for Kimbrel signing elsewhere.
Kimbrel may just do a 1 year deal with Boston.
Then there would be no QO in 2020.
Either way Kimbrel will make out unless he gets hurt in 2019.
Which is why he may dog it in Boston in 2019 unless he gets a LT contract.
Give Kimbrel 4/$68M with opt outs and a 5th year option for $17M.
That way the Red Sox playoff run will stay in place for a few more years.
I’ve been a big supporter of Eppler but if thinks they stand a snowball’s chance in hell of being competitive with that bullpen, he’s insane. To say that’s a ‘motley crew’ is an understatement. Bedrosian? Don’t even know how he makes the 40 man, after last year’s performance. Ughhh. I’ve been trying so hard to stay positive.
The problem is that the Angels need to TRADE TROUT!!! HE WANTS TO BE IN PHILLY…!
Huh? From everything I heard, which is all public, he loves Anaheim. He wanted to sign a lifetime contract here. The Angels blew it by not agreeing.
Years ago the Angels offered a lifetime deal but he wanted the deal he is currently under. I also read, last spring, the Angels revisited the lifetime deal and he still was not interested. He was waiting to see what Harper signs for. It is not that the Angels don’t want to sign him , but Trout waiting on two outcomes; Harper and the roster going into 2019 (if it is a legit contender roster).
I don’t want Trout to leave but I’m starting to feel he is gone. This season may be one and done.
Moreno needs to step up to his mistake( signing Pujols) and increase the team payroll by Pujols salary and exceed the cap. He is responsible for this anchor of a contract holding the team in place. 78 to 82 wins. otherwise Trout is gone.