SUNDAY: Kevin Goldstein sent the email in question, reports Jeff Passan of ESPN. Goldstein, a special assistant to Astros’ GM Jeff Lunhow, joined the organization as a pro scouting coordinator in 2012, following stints writing for Baseball Prospectus, ESPN, and Baseball America, among other outlets. Goldstein did not respond to Passan’s request for comment.
Interestingly, Passan’s sources characterize scouts’ responses to Goldstein’s email as “mixed.” While some were indeed upset about the potential reputational harm that could come with involving cameras in a sign-stealing operation, as Rosenthal and Drellich indicated yesterday, others were “intrigued” by the idea.
SATURDAY: Another entry has been logged in the ongoing saga surrounding allegations of improper sign stealing by the 2017 Astros. Earlier this week, we first heard accusations that the team used illegal technology–including a center field camera and a clubhouse tunnel television–to try to decode opponent signs. Several former Houston employees, including pitcher Mike Fiers, issued on-record comments regarding the team’s system of sign stealing, and league officials were said to be in the process of gathering “tangible evidence” in regard to the team’s alleged improprieties. Tonight’s follow-up report from Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich of The Athletic now indicates that the team’s use of camera technology may not have been limited to center field (link).
An Astros executive, per the report, emailed several club scouts in August 2017 with the suggestion that cameras be used to steal opponent signs. The club was interested in preparing its sign-stealing practices in advance of the 2017 postseason, and the email’s sender–who goes unnamed in the report–urged scouts to try multiple methods to get a better view into the opposition’s dugout.
“What we are looking for is how much we can see, how we would log things, if we need cameras/binoculars, etc.,” the sender wrote in an email message to Houston scouts. “So go to game, see what you can (or can’t) do and report back your findings.” This type of organizational messaging, which is said to have also extended to phone calls and chats within a group Slack channel, reportedly led to a “confounded feeling” among the club’s scouting group, with several scouts voicing their dismay to team management.
It’s important to note that, under MLB rules, the stealing of signs is understood to fall under the broad auspices of gamesmanship. It is mostly the alleged introduction of technology that could potentially lead to penalties against the club, as was the case when the Red Sox were caught using Apple Watch technology to steal signs in 2017. Even if Houston is proven to have used cameras, commissioner Rob Manfred will still have the latitude to decide whether or not the club’s actions truly represented a rule violation; central to that decision would, for instance, be the league’s findings as to whether the club used their videos after or during the game in question.
As noted previously, the Astros also faced scrutiny regarding sign-stealing during the 2018 playoffs. The Indians and Red Sox at that point identified a person connected to the Astros named Kyle McLaughlin allegedly taking pictures near opposing dugouts. An MLB investigation found no wrongdoing on Houston’s part in connection to that incident, but it remains to be seen what the league’s new investigation might yield, and what forms of penalty–financial, draft-related, or otherwise–the club might face if the league finds damning evidence of organizational malpractice.
I cant wait to see how teams play against the Astros next year.
Steven St Croix
Well, ask Mike Fiers. He pitched at Houston this year and couldn’t get out of the 3rd. Alex Wood said hat he knew and still didn’t change up how signs, that’s in him.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
I am not defending this practice at all, but this article referred to the 2017 and maybe 2018 Astros. We saw how they did in 2019. Not defending them….
I have no problem with stealing signs if not using said technology. If you can figure them out with the naked eye, the signs are too simple anyway. Good signs change and are complex enough.
That said, there has to be an example made. I just do not know what – and I cannot agree with someone stating stripping them of the WS title. That brings us back to 1919 arguments then… But stripping them of draft picks and all, sure…
After the team had their own computer system hacked by a Cardinals executive, one would have thought Astros management would have thought twice when some of their own scouts were upset with the idea. I realize it’s different but when combined with how MLB handled the Red Sox and Watchgate, they should have at least asked MLB if their idea violated the intent of the new policy. They didn’t because they knew it did. Hang those involved high in my view.
And that includes Cora who was part of management as a coach if he had an active role.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
Same idea. If it involves any enhancement of the senses or technology I cannot buy into it. We can never stop people from stealing signs by observing, which is ok in my opinion. Like I said, that has been going on since the game was played. But this is unacceptable. I still do not agree with stripping the title. We have to strip 1919 then too.
Vandals Took The Handles
I watch games of 8-10 teams a year on MLB.TV. Playing their opponents allows me to watch most all MLB teams.
MLB.TV has an option to usually listen to the English play-by-play feed from the announcing crews of both teams – TV and radio. (There are also feeds in Spanish for some teams.) Therefore, in most games I can listen to my choice of 4 audio feeds to go with the video.
Over the past few years I’ve heard announcers – particularly the color announcers that are ex-players – call what the upcoming pitch is going to be just by looking at their monitor in the booth coming from a camera mounted in the OF. Simple exercise for a skilled person due to current technology (note that for years people coming out to the pitching mound to talk hold their gloves over their mouths, as lip readers can watch from cameras in the stands and decipher the conversation). The question is how to signal that information down to the batter.
MLB is going to have to face this issue, and it goes far beyond one team, one year, stealing signs. Example…..
Trevor Bauer wanted to mount a video tracking camera in the CF camera bin to track himself pitching during a game. In turn, he also wanted to track other pitchers in order to learn from things they do. I’m talking about using Edgertronic video equipment that all teams use, and even many players buy. That unit can show hundreds (some claim thousands) of frames per second. In short, this is similar (though not as advanced) as allowing anyone with an electronic unit to take an MRI of a portion of a persons body without their knowledge, then doing with it as they please – learning about the person, sharing the images with others, etc. Major privacy issue here. An attorney can argue that a person owns the rights to the way they pitch or hit, and that is their property.
Lot’s for the MLB Commissioners office to discuss – and I’m sure they’ve been doing that for years.
Phillies Pham: why strip the Reds of the 1919 title?
Apparently they were using cameras in 1919 also.
However, it was a bit more obvious because they had a photographer “sneak” out to shallow CF. They apparently thought he’d be invisible, because of the canopy that he’d be under that hung from the back of the still frame camera. However, the flash and the loud popping noise gave him away (a century later).
Apparently, sound travels slower than we thought.
Good point, makes me wonder if there is more to the St Louis hacking story than was reported. If my questionable memory serves me, I believe the Cardinals said the hacking started when they felt Ludnow had been hacking them. I am a fan of neither, but it makes me wonder…. shady is shady.
Now we get to see what the little gutless Manfred will do, to discourage this from becoming the norm.
Personally I don’t think Manfred will act strongly, he doesn’t understand the magnitude of what this could lead to. He’s more concerned about perception.
Except the Reds had nothing to do with the Blacksox throwing the series.
Also, the Reds won more games then the blacksox that year.
I do not know what would have happened, you never know.
But to take the title from the Reds would be really stupid.
Why would you have to strip the 1919 Title. The ones who cheated, the Chicago White Sox, did not win the Title. You cannot take it from the Reds who did nothing wrong. Not the same thing at all.
Exactly why strip the Reds of the 1919 title
Marc (Phillies Phan)
colonel flagg – lol. I meant cheating. I will choose my words better next time…. That is what I get for writing at 3am.
AL Pennant is what I meant, but I was bad at even addressing it.
All video feeds accessible on the playing field and inside the clubhouses/dugouts are all mandated to be on an 8 second delay, per MLB rule.
This arrangement violates that rule.
Agreed on all parts
You actually think they stopped this year? The Yankees accused them of whistling during the ALCS and their is rumors they used the same practices throughout the regular season.
1919 is different as the team cheating lost on purpose. You aren’t going to give them a title to punish them. The dodgers and Yankees took them to seven games. Either team could have a whole different trajectory with a title.
Taking away a title and giving it to another team will not feel like winning a title for the other team. Sad but true. What should happen is all those involved be suspended immediately. maybe do like college and astros are ban from playoffs for 3 years. If hinch and the GM is not suspended MLB has a bigger problem.
The 2017 ALCS could’ve been different but at the same time the Yankees bats were shut down in Houston by Verlander, Keuchel, Verlander again, Morton and McCullers. The Astros bats showed up at least once at Yankee Stadium and would’ve won a game there had the bullpen not collapse. In my opinion, what made a bigger more than any potiential cheating in the world series (let’s just wait and see) was Marwin’s game 2 home run. That home run is what really gave Houston a chance and it basically ‘You think Houston doesn’t have a chance? Not so fast”.
That is why taking away a championship means nothing to the other team now. Houston top management should be punished not the players. Hinch knew what was happening. The GM directed the team to do it. Long big suspensions of the team and management should be done by MLB.
“That is why taking away a championship means nothing to the other team now.”
Ask the Dodgers that question. I think they would beg to differ.
“Houston top management should be punished not the players.”
The players were directly involved. They knew what they were doing. They defrauded everyone. They are frauds. Give them long staggered suspensions throughout the season. Force the team to play prospects and scrubs all season. Ban the players from the postseason for 3 years.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
Oxford, I did a horrible job at articulating it. I meant AL Pennant,
My bigger picture was if we strip a title here we have to go back and look at other years. That was all. But… I will own my post as it was terribly written.
There is a reason why you don’t ban the players if management was involved. If a player came out against his team and whistle blew it would end his career unless he was a top 10 player. Look at what happened to canseco. He was draged through the dirt but he was correct about steroids. Clemens destroyed a career by lies. Braun destroyed a career over a lie. Suspend the team for a year from post season would send a clear message that it would never happen again.
Excellent point. How about 50% salary fines for everyone on the roster still playing. That would stop it immediately and show that MLB has the integrity of the game in its best interest. Although the union would probably counter sue
They should lose all draft picks for 3 years. That would be a worthy punishment.
Probably a bit much, But a 1 and a 2 this year, and a one next year will get there attention.
If they are caught again, no post season for the next 3 years.
@Marc (Phillies Phan)
This is cheating on a institutional level.. And the fact that some front office members were indignant at the audacity of being accused makes it even worse.
As a Yanks fan, I can’t ask for a do over and we will never know for sure how their cheating impacted the results but during that series in 2017 each team won all of their home games. However, the scoring is immensely suggestive.
Astros scored 15 runs at home vs only 5 at Yankee Stadium. That’s a huge difference. And considering how the much maligned Yankee staff lost 2-1 in games vs Keuchel and Verlander in games 1 and 2 makes it even more painful. Keuchel and Verlander are tough enough to score against but then
when your pitchers are doing their best to keep the game close it hurts to know the other team may have had an unfair advantage.
There’s no way to make things right by any of the teams involved. Even if you awarded the WS to the Dodgers, I doubt their players or fans would be satisfied. They all want to win it the right way. You can’t exactly have a parade or celebrate a victory 3 years later.
They should hit them hard. Restrict them from spending on FA this year. Which means Cole walks and the only way they can improve the team is via trades.. Also ban them from post-season play for 2020 and take away their 1st round picks for 2020 and 2021. Ban every exec and scout who directly suggested or implemented the acts of cheating from baseball for two years.
Fining a billionaire team owner means nothing. The punishment should be on a Draconian in nature. Limit their ability to add players and banning them from post-season play is in fact, Draconian and should scare every other team from ever doing it again.
Also, remove their championship banners from being displayed on the field.
And shoot their puppies if they have any.
Agree with all that except the puppies and I believe the players should be suspended for some period of time next year (20 games each?), staggered throughout the season. 2017 team members no longer with the club should be stoned with eggs.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
southbeachbully – Your post is excellent.
I remember that series well too, and at the time, I thought it was the Yankees’ youth that caught up with them. Looking back, I see what you are saying now.
I never advocated though to strip their title. I am against that regardless. I am consistent, I think Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame, even if it is posthumous. I am against many players of the steroid era being in though, because they lied about it when it was not against the rules. Had they owned it, I would be fine with it.
DO I think any of this is right and just? Nope. But you said it best – it is hard to have any victory parties much later. We are talking about humans, so behaviors are hard…
As far as your punishments, yours have been very sound. I do not know how you could ban them from post-season play though. That would be equivalent to forfeiting every game. I think your other suggestions though are good, but I would ban Goldstien (if this is true) for life. Anyone who knew I would say 1-5 years.
@Marc (Phillies Phan)
Very easy to ban them from the playoffs in 2020. Their spot goes to whomever is 2nd behind them. So if the A’s finish in 2nd place then they make the playoffs. and not the Astros. If the Astros don’t win their division but are a wild card team then the team directly behind them takes their place. Simple. Done.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
southbeachbully – I have no love for the Astros and I especially cannot stand Hinch, but I also cannot agree. We are basically telling them then that 2020 means nothing so why play? That would have an effect on the way it plays out. It would almost be better then to go to 29 teams then and redo the schedule; but then that brings another issue. I think that is too complicated because of the domino effect.
@Marc (Phillies Phan)
It’s not complicated at all. Read the email. It said the front office person asked his scouts to do this ahead of the post-season so they would have an advantage against the teams they faced. So they went ahead and won a WS. We might not ever know if or how much of an advantage they had but it sure would discourage them from doing it again.Fining them money or picks hurts a little but this team can go on and win for the next year, two or more without the benefit of a late 1st round pick. So you take away their 1st round pick and they basically get the same punishment as a non-cheater that signs a top FA. So look at it from this perspective. They cheated vs the Yanks and Dodgers. If either of them signs a Cole, Stras or Rendon then they suffer the exact same penalty as the Astros did for actually doing something negative to the game. How is that fair? FIning them money? Who cares. these are billionaires and I doubt the amount is going to be enough to truly impact them. If it’s not taking away their tit;e then it should be a huge fine like $50 mil split between the teams they faced in the playoffs and that’s just the start.
So. Beach – The puppies are a nice touch.
Wouldn’t that just egging them?
@ Marc (Phillies Phan)
“I cannot agree with someone stating stripping them of the WS title.”
MLB should ask the Dodgers what they think about the WS title. My guess is it would differ from your take. The Yankees would probably like this year’s ALCS title back. No way Altuve is looking for a slider high and outside without help.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
Mo4ever – I have to unfortunately stand by my comment though. I need to be careful how I word this as I am talking about the spirit of things not the exact acts, but there have been other years that people have “cheated” whether it be alleged steroids, or what-not.
My big point is if we strip this one, we have to look at other years, except 1919.
Marc gets it. If you’re gonna revisise history for one team, then you better go back and revise history for other teams. Example: the Yankees from 1996 to 2000. Two players on one team taking peds (considered to cheating by MLB) is vastly different from a whole team potentially stealing illegally via technology but it’s still considered to be cheating. There is no way in hell the titles in that dynasty are going to be removed. Don’t expect MLB to do the same to the Astros.
@Marc (Phillies Phan) @goastros123
Guys, you can’t say that Bergman did this or Cole did that. The cheating of player A using steroids isn’t at all comparable to an entire organization cheating. What the Astros did is institutional. From the front office down to the coaches and then on to the players. Not even close to the steroids issue. Now if Cashman were handing out steroids like they were jelly beans and instead of 1 or 2 guys it was 15-20 then you have a case. Not a close comparison at all.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
goastros123 – That is how I see it. You can’t tell me they did not know.
southbeachbully – I honestly see your point. I really do. I also like your sense of justice. I do not want to turn this into a steroid conversation. I will just say this though: That was also institutional. Teams knew it. MLB knew it. There are many people who believe Sosa and McGuire saved baseball, so some don’t care. But it goes back to the same issue: it was institutional too.
I don’t even like what I am saying. I really don’t. There is no clean way though to punish the organization as a whole, without upsetting other balances. Yes, your suggestion makes sense. But it has other ramifications that will happen.
Marc, I’m obviously an Astros fan but I have an associates degree in history. I cannot stand revisionist history. Taking the trophy away would be bad but taking it away and ignore other teams who have won and cheated some how is just as bad or even worse.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
goastros123 – I just cannot stand Hinch LOL. I also don’t like revisionist history on anything. We learn from the past, as bad as some of it is…
Southbeachbully, I said it was vastly different but the principle remains the same: technically cheating went on. The case is there based on that principle.
@Marc (Phillies Phan)
Clemens was never caught using. There is no hardcore evidence to prove although we all know he did. But when did he start? When did it end? Was it during his stint with the Blue Jays where he miraculously had a rebirth after 3 “meh” seasons with Boston proceeding his move to Toronto? We know Andy admitted to doing it but he said it was only for 1 year when he was rehabbing from an injury while playing with (drum-roll please) the ASTROS along with his pal Roger Clemens.. The ONLY way we know is because some players that were tested had their info leaked. But it wasn’t EVERYONE on the list. So what about those that were not leaked? How do you punish them? Releasing their info and retroactively punishing their team?
What about Luis Gonzalez and the 2001 Dbacks?
What about Manny Ramirez and the two WS he won as part of the Red Sox? Or Ortiz who allegedly used too (although not proven 100%)?
What about David Justice and the 1995 Braves?
There’s no way you can say that teams knew about which players used and who didn’t , or at least not after it became an issue. And if you start retroactively penalizing teams who had steroid users then two things a) You release all those that tested positive but were not exposed. b) you have to be able to pinpoint when they started using them. It’s unlikely that Ortiz used later on in his career when MLB was cracking down on it and testing caught up to the cheaters.
The difference is there is no evidence against the Yankees 1996 to 2000. That is all speculative. Pettite admitted to using steroids in Houston, not in NYC. I’m not sure on the the span for Clemens in terms of what evidence their is. You would have to take Boston in 2004 for Manny and 2007 and 2013 for Ortiz. But speculation and accusations aren’t enough.
Every batter on the Astros should be thrown at, every pitch of every at bat, until the WS title is vacated. That would solve the problem.
The Astros go low, and everybody else goes lower? Sure, that will help the reputation of the game.
All the teams are probably doing it at this point. Isn’t technology great?
“If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying”
Take away there title!!!!
Agreed! Vacate the 2017 WS title. Take away the rings and the trophy. 2017 will be like 1994…..
Mike Greenwell rightfully felt MLB should have stripped Canceco’s 87 or 88 MVP after he admitted it was won on Roids. MLB took no action then and outside of being caught throwing games, they are unlikely to strip any individual or team award. For those who don’t remember, Greenwell was the Red Sox left fielder then, had his “career year” and finished second in the voting that year.
Technically, still not against the rules. That’s the amazing part here.
Stop cry. You can’t take away title. Punish them big time, money, draft pics, suspensions etc…
Steroids were never legal. It is a federal crime. @jorge
This is not true. The most common steroid used by ballplayers was Androstenedione (Andro for short) and was available over the counter. You could buy it at your local pharmacy or GNC. Thats why it was so common, it was readily available. It didn’t become illegal until 2004. HGH is still legal with prescription.
The NCAA does that for the silliest of reasons instead of punishing/suspending
the people involved. What, is MLB going to give the WS title to the Dodgers!!??
How do you prove it was enough to tip the balance?
And was it specifically forbidden in the CBA at the time? People forget the CBA rules everything. And are the Dodgers supposed to feel like “champions” now after you award them a tainted title? I understand your anger but please park it at the door…..
In the unlikely scenario the championship is vacated, the Dodgers wouldn’t be named the champion. There would be no champion.
This is probably true, but if it is found that the Astros cheated in the World Series, and they are allowed to retain their title, the message being sent by the commissioner will be ambiguous at best. MLB you would hope has learned its lesson about not getting out in front of a cheating scandal.
“…the Dodgers wouldn’t be named the champion. There would be no champion.”
The Dodgers were defrauded. Period. Treat it like a court case. The Dodgers win. Give them the title.
That’s a difficult ruling to issue. Yanks lost 4-3 with each team winning their home games. Huge disparity between what the Astros scored at home vs on the road. How can you satisfy the Yanks possible claim that they should’ve won the AL pennant? You can’t. So IF a ruling came down that the Astros should be stripped of their WS then it’s best to just leave it vacant for history’s purpose because it’s likely that their entire road to the WS was tainted.
I agree. Strip it and award no champion. Leave the stain so history is remembered
“So IF a ruling came down that the Astros should be stripped of their WS then it’s best to just leave it vacant for history’s purpose because it’s likely that their entire road to the WS was tainted.”
I’ll buy that.
If you are not cheating you are not trying? WTF kind of sportsmanship is that? Extremely piss poor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Manfred needs to send a strong message by stripping away their 2017 WS and ALCS titles. Take everything associated with those titles away. Take away their rings, trophies, awards, and bonus money. In addition, suspend every person involved for a full season w/o pay and take away their 1st & 2nd round draft picks. Make an example out of them so no other club, executive, nor player will ever think of violating those rules in the future. A slap on the wrist will do absolutely nothing to prevent this kind of cheating from happening again and again.
Baseball has no place for those who cheat. The integrity of this perfect and beautiful game is at stake.
Baseball has no place for those who cheat? The integrity of this…dude, where were you during the steroid era when baseball knew about it and let it go because it was bringing fans back to the game? Have you never heard of the Pittsburgh Drug Trials where players were found to be selling and doing cocaine and were suspended for the year UNLESS they donated PART of their salary to anti drug causes? Then there’s that whole segregation thing that continued into the 1940s.
This game has been far from perfect throughout its past, yet here we all are watching it still. I think you might be overreacting to the severity of this, and if you think the Astros were the only team doing this then I have a bridge to sell ya.
If you are not cheating you are not trying?
So I guess if you’re not impeachable, your not being presidential enough?
You have disproved your own point. To its everlasting shame MLB responded slowly to the steroids scandal and the inaction damaged the reputation of the game. The sport took that lesson seriously and has since become much more proactive. The domestic violence policy, for example, is a product of the lessons learned from the steroids scandal. Claiming (especially without any evidence) that “everybody is doing it” does not excuse anyone who has been caught. Be sure that MLB is not going to take that view.
If a guy on 2nd can steal a sign, and signal a batter, more power to them.
If you use a camera, then it is beyond the line.
People who ask to take a title away, are just a bunch of dodger crybabies.
Yanks fan here. No way are the Yanks or Dodgers going to feel any vindication and no one wants to be given a title that way. However, it’s CLEAR by simply reading the email
“An Astros executive, per the report, emailed several club scouts in August 2017 with the suggestion that cameras be used to steal opponent signs. The club was interested in preparing its sign-stealing practices in advance of the 2017 postseason”,
They were looking for an advantage headed into the 2017 post-season. For what purpose? To have an unfair advantage against the teams they would likely face and to use that advantage to advance as far as possible. So then taking away that title,. OR at least stripping them from displaying the trophy, banners or whatever else is fitting. I doubt the DOdgers would want the title handed to them but they should do what they can to erase the title at least from public display in the stadium and front offices. Let the Astros keep their “empty” title.
The title should always be referred to with an asterisk. “obtained with the use of illegal sign stealing methods. If at all. I think the title should be stripped and left with “none.” No winner.
Just like the Yankees titles from 1996 to 2000.
Lol yeah right loser.
Where’s your evidence for the Yanks 1996-2000??? We’re talking cheating with evidence, not wild, self-serving speculation. Pettite admitted to PED’s with Houston, not the Yanks. And I’m not sure what span of time is covered for Clemens’s abuse, but I believe that was post 2000, when the Yanks were losing WS…
So stop with your wild, butt-hurt accusations. Just deflection. Your team cheated big time with a wide net of evidence. That’s the difference. So stop lying.
Imagine how much money Yu Darvish lost because of his poor WS outings against the cheating Astros. They should pay Darvish some money. (Not a Dodgers/Cubs fan FYI)
Sure, but when you get caught red handed, with audio and video evidence, plus institutional emails and former (and maybe current) players (and maybe coaches) confirming their cheating, better man up and take the responsibility AND consequences. Enron all over again.
Invalid name, invalid theory. If you can only win by cheating, you’re a weasel. And the satisfaction from winning is hollow.
I deem the veracity of your logic invalid. See what I did their?
Forfeiting multiple 1st round picks, international money, 20 game suspensions for Hinch/Luhnow and a big fine for Mr. Crane will get the message across that this behavior is unacceptable. Manfred has been a very soft commissioner, its time for him to step up.
That’s less than the Braves penalty. In my mind this is way worse than what the Braves did and the penalty should be commensurately worse.
This is not a banned for life offense. How much more can you go?
Not banned for life, but this wasnt one team doing something that all other teams did and then being made an example of where LA prospect bundling has been going on for a while, and they just did it a little more wrong then was the norm.
Hou did something that was expressly against the rules they knowingly violated. Michigan them like the Webber fab 5. Void the WS win and all victories where they did this, and make them pay back the WS and playoff bonuses. Team and players both pay it back since they willingly participated by taking the stolen sign calls and not blowing the whistle. I would tag on the next two first round picks as well. Take down the banner and give it and the rings to the other guys.
Cheating to win lowers the integrity of the game, and Hou has shown a culture of win at all cost fair or otherwise, just ask Ozuna, make them pay for not respecting the rules or the game they deserve it!
They’re not voiding the world series and nor should they.. People gotta start being realistic over what form of punishment the Astros will receive.
Don’t be so sure. Manfred said that the punishment has to be strong enough to ensure that no one will ever do this again. Losing a couple draft picks in exchange for a WS title is a good trade, so it must be much more severe than that. And yes they should. If you rob a bank you don’t get to keep the money after serving your jail time.
Hear, hear. I would also give all players, whether they are on the team or not, a suspension of 30 games, staggered throughout the season. I want to see Altuve ride the pine. I want to see him try to win the MVP without sign stealing and with 30 games less to play.
Altuve’s MVP should be stripped and given to Judge.
Separate sport an all so I’ll be brief. The Michigan thing sucks in my opinion. The “cheating” done by Webber was accepting pocket money from someone. He did do anything like point shaving or throwing the game. From what I remember, it wasn’t even bundles of cash but more like giving a kid money so they can do what other kids his age did. It wasn’t like in the movie “Bluechips”. I think it’s a dumb rule imo but it what it is. But I didn’t think the team should’ve been punished because one kid took money. The team didn’t benefit from the cash Weber took and Weber didn’t do anything to effect the outcome of the game.
The draft pick penalty the Braves got was related to the nature of their offense
Ok, then on top of this, make there top 5 prospects FA.
It should be a full year suspension for Hinch
The more I think about it, the more I agree with you. Hinch let this nonsense go on under him and he should have to sit out a year like Payton did with bounty gate.
It needs to go beyond Hinch. He isn’t the one that ordered scouts to do the cheating. It should at least include the GM too, if he’s still with the Astros.
That would certainly take that “smirk” off of his face and the elitist attitude away for sure.
Idk. 20 games seems awfully light.
Agreed. Even larry Baer got suspended for 3 months because of an argument outside of baseball. This is much worse.
That’s a slap on the wrist!! That’s not enough.
20 game suspensions?! Kick them off the tour, Doug!
Quote it right next time please
Team should be stripped of their WS. It’s tainted as hell now anyways. Also should lose multiple draft picks. Need a lesson sent to the league that this shouldn’t be tolerated.
I agree. It’s only going to get worse if the penalty isn’t extreme. This type of cheating has to be stopped.
Its sportsmanship and respecting the integrity of the game over personal accolades or earnings! If you dont win the right way you dont deserve it at all! Just as BARRY! No HoF for you!
No such thing as stripping WS
Awards can be stripped just like in any other sport. Just because the Padres don’t have any World Series Titles doesn’t mean world series titles can’t be taken away. They just have to be won first.
When you look at the results I would think they were stealing signals on the road too. They will get fined and lose draft picks for this. Anyone caught lying will lose their jobs.
They’re not going to strip them of that title, something many fans have been waiting a long time to see the Astros win. You strip them of the title and you’re punishing the Astros fanbase.
No, the Astros have punished the Astro fanbase.
No, they didn’t. The Astros gave the fanbase what they’ve been waiting for: a world series trophy. The trophy isn’t going to be taken away so I failed to see how the Astros have punished it’s fanbase.
How can you not see this? The email wanted the scouts to get the spying up and running by the playoffs? They cheated fans everywhere. They cheated the game. Take away their title and leave it vacant. THeir fans get hurt but that’s part of the penalty. It’s different if it were just one player that did it.
The team made the bed, the fans have to sleep in it. Maybe the should all become Rangers fans. Houston is one of the worst cities I’ve ever been to in my life.
Snotrocket, that’s not gonna happen. I’m gonna laugh when what the punishment you want Houston to recieve isn’t the punishmet they get at wall. There are tons of worst cities in America.
Few where you can walk 50 yards from a building to your car and be drenched in sweat because of the humidity. Blech.
Ok. Up north, you get buried in endless snow.
Out west is best. 🙂
Why is this about a city? Mlb isn’t trying to punish the fans. The fans are just a casualty of what the team did wrong.
I am just one man here, but what I want is simple. You can keep your trophy and stats. I want the GM all the way down fired, and the players at home with mom for at least a year, no pay.
I think they should lose their first round draft pick for this
I’d be willing to lose my first round draft pick every year if I could keep doing this.
Sign me up too
It’s the same penalty as a non-cheating team that signs a top FA that was offered a QO. How is that fair?
@zuma how about lose a 1st rd pick and DQ from a season or two of post season play?
As a franchise or player still wanna cheat?
Tack on min 50-80 game suspensions up to maximum 1 season bans for all involved. AJ Hinch, Cora, Beltran, the GM, scouts, other players etc.
Still wanna cheat?
At some point the punishment fits and acts as a deterrent.
It wasn’t against the rules until 2018. This is getting old to read about. Bring on the FA news
It is absolutely against the rules to use real time technology and relay signs.
You know there is an option not to read it. Lol
If it wasn’t against the rules until 2018, then why were the Red Sox and Yankees fined for it in 2017?
Because this was used in the playoffs up to their World Series title. They didn’t win through hard workout from the season when all they did was caught cheating in the big games that matter. The yanks and Red Sox got caught in one game against each other.
You stripped their title which will
Never happen but who do you give it too the dodgers? I mean the Yankees gotten cheated for the World Series appearance twice from these scum bags for cheating for stealing signs with electronic devices. Mlb needs to ban technology from the dugouts only have phones to the bullpen and replay.
I’m a diehard dodgers fan. I’m totally on board with stripping the title and tacking on draft pick penalties, suspensions, and fines. But handing the title to the dodgers doesn’t feel right. This was potentially something that tainted their whole season, all the way through the DS and CS, meaning more teams than just the dodgers suffered because of it. At best, just go with no WS winner for 2017.
I agree. The Dodgers were not the only team affected by the Astros cheating. The Yankees and Red Sox were too. It wouldn’t be right to hand it to the Dodgers. All three had a shot at it. So 2017 should go down w/o a WS Champion.
If the title is stripped, it would just be vacated.No way to give it to anyone.
LOL, you’re full of it. So the Red Sox and Yankees were fined because it’s in the playoffs…so you’re suggesting it’s legal to cheat in the regular season but illegal in the playoffs. Get out of here with that BS.
Yanks were not fined for using electronic means
The red Sawx were in fact for using Apple watches
Yanks minimally fined for answering phone in dugout which is a rule but never enforced and that was a tit for tat.
Get your facts straight. The Red Sox were fined for it. The Yankees were not. The Yankees were accused by the Red Sox a week after they were caught because they wanted to deflect attention. There was no evidence. End of story.
Wrong it has been against the rules for decades for any non uniform personnel to work to steal signs and your not allowed to steal signs using any piece of technology. The shot heard round the world Giants from 50+ years ago admitted after the fact to using a sleeper in the stands with a telescope for stealing signs. Also there was a huge deal about this in the early aughts when Bautista started hitting Jacks where Tor was alleged to be stealing signs and using a person in the stands to relay. Players and coaches are allowed to steal signs if they do it without any assistance.
Dont be at all surprised if sign stealing becomes banned altogether since it is becoming far to easy to hide tech places or even just have someone in the clubhouse watching the broadcast in HD and charting the signs till they have mapped them then telling the players so they can more legit seemingly signal from runners only. It will be to hard to police to allow it to continue.
It has however been banned for decades for teams to implement sign stealing outside of during games by uniform staff, and while there were some restrictions on people advance scouting signs that seemed to be mostly ignored for a while, the things Hou is accused of clearly violate the much longer standing rule since the manner they were doing it has been clearly banned.
Umpires would have a difficult time policing sign stealing if it were to be banned.
It doesn’t take these guys 5 pitches to figure out what the signs are. They use the same signs and the same resets and hand gestures as everyone else. They know what the pitches look like… they just match what sign was given to the pitch thrown. As long as they can see the catcher, they know what’s coming.
What they need is one of those tube thingys they have at the bank… the catcher writes the sign down, sends it to the pitcher. The pitcher can scribble it out and send it back. Then the catcher writes something else down, sends it to the pitcher. Pitcher then scribbles it out again and sends it back. Catcher gets mad, writes a note saying meet you out there. Sends it to the pitcher. Pitcher says okay, sends it back. They meet on the mound and talk about what they want to do… Umpire sends a note out to them… “Hey, you guys ready yet?”
If that were the case, sins would be stolen on every single pitch. They aren’t. Not even close. If there isn’t a player on second, not many batters are going to get stolen sign signals.
Love to see people finding creative ways to justify cheating.
Your wring. It’s gonna be opposite. They will use more technology legally like nfl does. It’s the only way to avoid stealing signs.
Down with OBP
fiers is a snitch
No Soup For Yu!
Thank goodness we know at least, this needed to get out.
We prefer to call him a whistle blower.
But it can still be called fake news and a witch hunt, right? That is the way we handle all inconvenient facts now, isn’t it?
No idea what you are rambling about. Lol. It is a synonym to snitch just like secretary/administrative assistant or garbageman/ sanitation engineer. Touchy huh?
Connotation means something. Whistleblowers are something, as a society, we want to protect and not vilify. Calling a whistleblower a snitch absolutely vilifies them. It’s not semantics or being touchy.
I agree with what you are saying but they do have the same meaning and whistle blower is an official synonym of snitch and that is the only point I was making. People are adding their own connotation based on their interpretation of the word.
Inconvenient facts, yep is fake news, how about what and who you’re referring to actually present facts?
As for the Astros, got to give presumption of innocence. They are still investigating the accusations. If they actually did it, wow! I can’t even imagine how big of a penalty, punishment, or fine they would face.
Opinions and hearsay are NOT fact, but enjoy the narrative you’ve bought into 🙂
Apparently you completely missed the sarcasm..
Four people have already gone on the record that it happened, and the video confirming their story can been seen by anyone who wishes to watch it. On top of that we now are learning that the directive to cheat seemingly came from top management. That’s the factual baseline, and it’s pretty bad. Maybe you can imagine a way this gets better for the Astros, but I can only think of a lot of ways it gets worse, maybe much worse. And just to remind you, this is baseball, not a court of law. The commissioner’s job is to see to it that the rules of the game are enforced, such that baseball is seen as being a clean game in the eyes of the paying customers. He has his work cut out for him, especially if some fans take the position that it requires courtroom-style evidence and procedures to “convict” the Astros of cheating. It doesn’t, nor should it. They’ve already been caught red-handed. The only question really is how pervasive it was, and who knew, and who directed it, and of course, how the commissioner deals with it.
Agree with everything you are saying, bluesky, but the video shows how well it works in an empty stadium. I don’t think anyone would be able to hear the sound of a bucket banging in the dugout in a playoff game.
Then again, maybe they changed the system up by then. The Astros deserve very harsh penalties for this, regardless.
Right, a lot more needs to be known before appropriate penalties can be assessed. The most troubling of the known facts at this point is that management appears to have originated the scheme. This makes it an organizational problem and the question then is how high it goes up the chain of command. It could also partially explain why everyone down the chain kept their mouths shut until now. When you work for someone who tells you “this is how it’s done here” (even when it’s wrong), it takes a lot of gumption to go against those directives, especially when you have an incentive to go along.
“I don’t think anyone would be able to hear the sound of a bucket banging in the dugout in a playoff game.”
Everyone can hear Gardner banging on the dugout roof after a bad call.
Are you speaking on the case of the Astros cheating? What more evidence is needed? The email is the smoking gun.
“Snitches get stitches.” Gator don’t like that.
Knew this one was coming
I’m glad he spoke out about it. I do however find it strange that he’s just now having this moral dilemma about younger players. Didn’t seem to bother him when he was on the team as they racked up all those wins to the post season.
You’re saying that based on nothing. Or I guess based on the fact he said nothing then. But well you know people don’t always say something right away when they’re bothered, you know how human beings work and probably even are one.
Fiers respects baseballs integrity HOU obviously does not!
If he respected it, he wouldn’t have waited until he was no longer on the team to say something. He has selective ethics.
Whatever the situation, Fiers DID the right thing. None of his teammates did. Not Verlander, not Cole, not that cheating MVP Altuve, not Springer, not…
Call it selective ethics, a change of heart, or a guilty conscience that wouldn’t let it go. It is still important that he broke the “code” and blew the whistle on this behavior.
“fiers is a snitch”
You sound like an inmate.
If I were Manfred, I would fine Crane a good sum and give him a 6 month ban that would start as soon as he hired a new GM. Luhnow would get a 5 year ban and a fine. Hinch would also get 5 and fined. All members of the coaching staff on the 2017 team would receive 2 year bans. Crane should have been paying closer attention to his organization and Luhnow, whether or not he was approving or was involved, hired a staff that created this scheme.
Don’t take away wins or titles because these teams have been legitimately uber talented and likely the results would have been the same even without the sign stealing, but make the punishment hurt to stop other teams from trying.
@jkoch717 “these teams have been legitimately uber talented and likely the results would have been the same even without the sign stealing”
No, no and no.
Rally shirt yeah because how do you they cheated on the playoffs?
Glad you asked, it’s literally all over the internet. We’re not talking about a single smoking gun, let’s say it’s closer to a hundred?
I supplied some links on the original Astros accused article. At the bottom.
Doesn’t matter about cheating in the playoffs, although why would they stop then if it gave them an advantage? If they cheated during the regular season, their whole season or at least all home games are suspect and their win loss record is tainted, meaning they shouldn’t have been in the playoffs at all. That’s why you vacate their Playoff and WS results.
I like your thinking on the punishment however I don’t fully agree with your last comment. Although I agree they were in 2017 and still are a very talented team, however, I don’t think the results would have been the same minus the cheating. It is very difficult to hit a baseball but it is a hell of a lot easier if you know what type and location of pitch is coming at you.
The only baseball Astros players will see next year is on the Playstation4.
i will beat them cheating.
It’s time to wake up and starting being realistic, Rallyshirt. Otherwise, you’re gonna be severely disapponited and rightfully so.
Okay, let’s be realistic. Let’s say the league is not preparing for one less team on next year’s schedule. Astro players go out there and are cheered during introductions. Let’s say that Alex Bregman puts together another fantastic year adding to his stellar career.
Where can they play without being booed? At home even?
Where can they play without stuff being thrown on the field and higher security? At home even?
How does this not effect public perception of MLB in general even if they do the right thing and issue severe punishment?
These are realistic “awoke” questions.
Yes, let’s be realistic because that trophy is not going to be taken away, the Astros are not gonna be banned from the post-season for how ever many years, etc.
“Where can they play without being booed”? You answered your question: at home. Them being booed in other ballparks isn’t going to be some ultimate factor. If a few fans at home boo them, so what?
“Where can they play without stuff being thrown on the field?” If people throw stuff on the field like at Yankees stadium then that hurts their team too. If they have to cancel a game because fans keep throwing stuff onto the field then for that game, opposing fans lose the opportunity to see their team play.
“How does this not effect public perception even if they do the right thing ad issue severe punishment?” First of all, what is the right thing? Stripping them of their title? No, that’s not the right thing at all. That’s called revisionist history and revisionist history is NEVER the right thing. People have been suggesting that and other things that are ridiculous. This effects the public perception of MLB regardless of what form of punishment the Astros receive. The public will view this as a bad thing even if MLB doesn’t do the “right thing”. It’s a black eye no matter what. People are gonna riot and take up arms if the title is not taken away? Then people can take up arms if it is. If it is, people will to turn past winners, such as the 2000 Yankees, who have employed some sort of cheating such as peds. PEDs is different but cheating is cheating.
You can punish them without the punishment being ridiculous. It’s up to the commissioner to figure out how.
@goastros123 I’m trying to be mindful to not insult Astros fans in any of my comments. Some might be a little cheeky. I believe the fans are hurting, and not just Astros fans.
You and I may disagree about the weight and implications which could be faced if these players touch the field without a public acceptance of just punishment. It’s hard to say what will get it done.
But letting 2017 players and coaches from Houston or wherever they are now employed take the field is likely worse than a prolonged suspension on all of them.
And respectfully, I don’t think the league takes away the trophy. I think the fans of Houston protest it be taken out of their city immediately following the conclusion of this scandal.
So the Astros shouldn’t be punished because it will give baseball a black eye? BWAHAHAHA!
Who cares if the fans protest the trophy being taken out of the city? Their team “won” that trophy illegally. They might not even have been in the postseason without cheating. F the Houston fans. They should get a new team to root for.
I appreciate you being respectful. Some of us are hurting inside (maybe not me specifically) because while what the team did is completely wrong, a some of us have been waiting quite awhile for that trophy. I myself will be very upset if it’s taken away for three reasons:. I’m obviously an Astros fan. 2. I got an associates degree in history. 3. I completely missed out on Clutch City due to being born right before it happened.
I think you could suspend Altuve, Springer, Correa, Bregman, etc for different stints of the season. If you do it all at once, that’s just setting the team up to fail intentionally and perhaps they deserve but it wouldn’t go well. I’d do that and force Houston to fire their front office and maybe Hinch, while filling those positions with MLB-approved people. At the end of the day, MLB is in a tough spot and we’re gonna have to wait and see.
@goastros123 – I empathize with you. God damn this s***. I can only imagine what it must feel like to say things like this about your home team.
I love the White Sox, and we’ve been put down for years, labeled second-class, cheap, losers, inept office, you name it.
It’s tough being a fan, but what Astros fans are going through is probably the toughest of all. There are millions out there who are very angry, but not at the fans. If that helps.
Despite this whole thing, I refuse to abandon my team and I will continue to be adamantly against the taking the title away because I cannot stand revisionist history. I’m sure you can understand that.
Rallyshirts, you’re the first person I’ve seen during all of these to recognize how conflicted a lot of other Astros fans must be during this whole thing. You get props for that. We’ll see where other Astros fans stand when the next season rolls around.
Yes, revisionism can be a dangerous path. A lot of baseball fans are also history buffs. I’d like to think the Athletic report is intended for hammering down on any future attempts of this type of cheating throughout the league. But public opinion very much matters. It is our inalienable right to demand justice is commensurate to the crime.
My empathy for Astros fans is limited if only by the fact I was at Game 7 of the 2017 World Series. It was easily the worst day I have ever spent at the ballpark, and I’ve spent a whole lot of them. Dodger fans have been chewing on their guts for two years now knowing this was the season that should have broken the drought, which now extends to 31 years. Now, to find out that the team that beat them and left this fan base in purgatory for who knows how much longer was cheating? Imagine how tough that is, because I can’t begin to tell you. Yeah so maybe Astros fans deserved better than a dishonest front office and dishonest players, but then, so did Dodger fans and the fans of every team they beat by cheating. All of baseball deserves better.
Dodgers were shut down at home and my Astros were shut down at home. It came full circle I suppose. Regardless, I believe if you’re shut down like that in game 7 on your home field then perhaps you weren’t the better team after all. Many Astros fans have been waiting for years to see their team win it all and it finally happened. 31 years is a long time but so is 40-50 years.
It’s clear to see the Dodgers and Yankees are likely the loudest of all in this. And that’s not to diminish other teams. I must admit, part of my personal fascination is about LA and NY and what they do. Your cities have immeasurable influence. Use it.
M04ever, that’s why Altuve is your daddy and I will laugh when the Astros aren’t punished the way you want them to be. Furthermore, yes Altuve can see a flat slider coming without help. Lol.
It should not have gone to seven games. The Astros won two out of three at home including a Game 5 that I should not even have to mention. The point is we will probably never know who was the “better team” when one of them was playing by their own rulebook. We also don’t know what if any cheating they were able to work out on the road, we only know they were trying. So, sorry, no sympathy and no empathy for Astros fans coming from here. The story is nowhere close to being that one-sided.
What kind of influence do you mean? Each of the teams has one vote within MLB. In general Dodger fans have some very legitimate questions here, as I am sure you can see, quite apart from any influence the teams might have.
LA and NY are the beacons of national media, and both have been burned by this. If this happened between the Astros and let’s say the Royals, Twins or Tampa it’s still big news. But Yankees and Dodgers?
I think Houston had legit chance whether they cheated or not. That Marwin home run in game 2 affected the world series that much. I agree that we’ll never know who the better team is. The Dodgers have all this lore and history and success compared to my Astros. I’m not gonna feel sympathy nor empathy for the fans of a team who have that but refuse to feel anything for a fanbase WHO DON’T HAVE ANYTHING CLOSE TO THAT except for a tainted title they got to see their team win after 31+ years.
If you’re looking for howls of outrage coming from the local sportswriters I haven’t seen it yet. Maybe more as this story unfolds. Honestly, I don’t see it making much of a difference in any event. My experience as a Dodger fan is that for purposes of baseball this timezone might as well be on the dark side of the moon as far as the rest of the country is concerned.
If we don’t know who the better team is then we also don’t know how the series would’ve gone had Houston decide to not steal signs so we can’t say it shouldn’t have gone to 7. Sorry!
Dude this isn’t “revisionist” and you’re grossly misusing the term. This is learning of explicit behavior after the fact. Not to compare this to murder butt there’s a reason why murder doesn’t have a statute of limitation attached because it’s considered to be such a heinous crime that they want the ability to close the case even years after it happened. .
Revisionist history is more like correcting this idea that Christopher Columbus discovered America. a) America had millions of indigenous people that already lived in what’s now known as the America’s but from a Euro-centric view of the world, he thought he was the 1st. b) There’s proof that the Icelandic Vikings visited America first by hundreds of years. c) Columbus was the first to offer the indigenous as slaves to Spain and thus the onset of the slave trade.
That would be revisionist and it’s based on facts. This is not revisionist. It’s evidence catching up to a lie and whatever penalty handed down including stripping them of their WS title. It’s meting out punishment after the contemplation and verification of new evidence.
Dude, I’m not misung anything. Lots of things have life have a history to it. MLB and the world series is no exception. To revise is to edit. Revisionist history is simply put history that was edited AFTER THE FACT. Taking the 2017 World Series title away from the Astros IS EDITING MLB AND AND WORLD SERIES HISTORTY AFTER THE FACT. I know what revisionist history but it you seems you don’t.
No way Altuve is looking for a high and outside slider (not nearly a flat one) without help. Now way Altuve wins the MVP without knowing what pitch is coming all season long. No way. It should be taken away…
I look forward to you receiving your pain when the hammer comes down. Enjoy never being able to talk about ’17 Series with pride outside your cheater-loving circle of Stros friends.
Taking away the ’17 WS “victory” would be revisionist history and the cheating Stros deserve it. Don’t blame us, blame your cheating Stros.
Contrary to what you think, Southbeachbully, I’ve been using the term correctly.
M04ever, when the verdict is handed out and the title is not taken away, I sincerely hope you’ll be as salty then as you are now and as you were when Riveria choked vs the Diamondbacks. When that happens, don’t blame the Astros. Instead blame the Yankees for no-showing offensively at Minute Maid Park and blame the Dodgers for being shut down on their home field. Lol.
“In historiography, the term historical revisionism identifies the re-interpretation of the historical record. It usually means challenging the orthodox views held by professional scholars about a historical event, introducing contrary evidence, or reinterpreting the motivations and decisions of the people involved”.
If MLB chose to strip the Astros of their title they are not attempting to “revise” history. More directly, they are penalizing them and taking away their title. As far as history would be concerned. The Astros won the WS in 2017 but after discovering allegations and evidence of them cheating they had their title taken away. In no way shape or form is anyone saying the games were not played and that the Astros were the victor. So no, it’s “revisionist history”.
I hate when people don’t understand words and how to use them.
What you’re trying to use “revisionist” is what’s happening with respect to history + ignored historical facts + living in an ultra-PC world. Christopher Columbus is celebrated as a hero. We now know that to be largely untrue. Plenty of facts were excluded in history. He wasn’t the first to discover America. He wasn’t even the 1st European to discover America. He thought he found Asia in fact. He was the first to offer slaves to the country Spain. All those “facts” have revised his history.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
goastros123 – you actually came up what I was thinking after our discussions: if suspensions are needed stagger them throughout the season. I (if I was the owner) would fire anyone who knew, Hinch and higher, and in return agree pay a hefty fine. If I (the owner) knew, MLB should force me to sell. We may be getting into Steinbrenner territory now lol. Forget my 1919 faux pas.
When two games are decided by one hit it’s perfectly reasonable to question how the outcome would be different if the winning team wasn’t cheating. I don’t know in what universe this is not true. I’d also like to think that if my team had finally delivered a long overdue championship and I’d found out that they were cheating that it would subtract substantially from the legitimacy of the championship and I wouldn’t be able to muster any defense for it. I’d also like to think that wouldn’t able to spend another nickel of my own money on that team until everyone associated with the cheating was gone. I’d also like to think that I wouldn’t be rationalizing the way you see to be.
Hear, Hear. Goastros needs some integrity.
Revisionist history is simply history.
New details are discovered that add to the story of people, places, and events. That history becomes revised with this new information.
If tomorrow the truth about who assassinated JFK was finally revealed, you’d argue against that? Why does anyone become a historian? Why are there any books written after the first one on Gettysburg?
All these darn historians, revising history with newly discovered information. When will the madness stop?
Just to be clear, revisionist history is not a revision to history, it is a deliberate effort to change, distort, or deny well-established historical facts to fit a narrative. In short, revisionist history is a form of propaganda. It is not about revising history at all, something historians do all the time as new facts become known.
Trust me, I’m aware. I’m actually rereading a book by a friend that has the first example I can remember of the term being used.
My point is the term isn’t being used correctly. Anything anyone doesn’t like is revisionist history, just as fake news is trotted out in the same way. To me, they’re now worthless terms only used by people with agendas.
Again, trust me, I see it almost daily in my own circles. The term has lost all meaning, it’s a fix-all term for “something I don’t like.”
Okay but since this was the first time you’d chimed in on this subject it was difficult to know what you intended.
Yeah, sorry for that. I have two similar thoughts in my head on the term itself, and I didn’t pick which one to go with. My original issue is with the terminology, now it’s with the term being nearly rendered meaningless through misuse.
Point being, taking away the Astros’ title would not be revisionist history as defined by the negative connotation, but it would be revising history because new facts have been introduced to the story. See what I mean? I’ve seen far too many people that think changing history with new evidence is wrong, except that’s essentially why historians exist. I know quite a few in a very specific and testy field, and adding to a historical event is often dismissed out of hand for being PC or revisionist history or some other idiotic thing. A lot of them won’t even engage, which is frustrating for those of us that are interested in learning more.
But setting aside all of that, I wish the term had been coined as propagandist history.
The Braves should do this.
Bring back the Indian and hide the camera in the Tipi and he can send up smoke signals to tip the pitch.
I bet that scout got a nice under the table payout
Ban GM Luhnow for 1 year!!!
well if they lose a draft pick or picks it should start with 2019 draft picks, would say their 1st and 2nd round picks, those players would be free agents. I think the Braves had something like that done to them not too long ago.
I think the players should be cut into equal portions for all the teams the Astros wronged.
those were international players. dont think the players association is signing up for that one.
The Houston Asterisks.
Truly the Patriots of baseball.
oh man, that is fantastic
The Red Sox and the Astros both need to give back all the titles they’ve won! Sox have cheated ever since 2000, first with steroids then sign stealing! Astros are just as bad!
as long as the Yankees give 2009 back because they rostered A-Rod.
Don’t forget all the title they won with Pettite in the 90’s as well as the 2000 title with Pettite and Clemons. The A’s should give up two titles they won the 80’s with the Bash Brothers.
Pettite took roids in Houston. That’s when Clemens approached him… Keep up.
If you want to make that claim then you’ll have to claim every speculated case of rids out there…
But they did not win the world series in Houston. That’s the difference. Petite admitted he took up so that’s not speculated. Mcguire and Canesco both admitted they took steroids so their cases are not speculated either and like Petite, they got rings. Steroids is still considered, by the MLB, to be cheating. If you’re gonna edit world series history to punish the Astros, edit it for the Red Sox, Yankees and A’s as well. Like you said, keep up.
Get with it. Pettite said he took roids while he was in Houston with Clemens. No he did not win the series there but that’s where he took it. He didn’t take them in NYC. That’s just self-serving speculation on your part.
It ultimately doesn’t matter when he took them. What matters is you’re gonna be upset even more when the verdict is passed down and it doesn’t go the way you want it to.
First off, we don’t know when most of these guys used steroids. Most believe that Bonds used them immediately after the McGwire/Sosa homerun battle.
As for Clemens, we can even prove he used let alone when? However, Pettite admitted to using steroids for the 1st time when he was with the Astros as a teammate of Clemens so that means Pettite did not use while with the Yanks in the 90’s. And there’s no evidence of if he used while a member of the 2009 team.
And there were plenty of players on those lists that were NOT mentioned too. No way to know and a TEAM should not be penalized for what 1 or 2 players do. In the case of the Astros. It was a INSTITUTIONAL problem and it’s exposed in the email that an asst GM did it and trickled down to scouts, coaches/managers and whatever players took advantage of the cheating. Completely different but nice try.
Of course it matters when it happened. If the Astros cheated in 2015 then yes that would still be bad but they didn’t make the payoffs so it doesn’t change the outcome of a WS. Look…I get it but the arguments you’re making are stupid. You a) can’t pinpoint when a player used steroids b) We can pinpoint exactly when the Astros, as an organization, began cheating and what the purpose was for. It clearly states they wanted the spying going into the 2017 playoffs. You’re making us less compassionate of the Astros fanbase dude.
A-Rod was not taking roids in 2009. 2009 was AFTER. Keep up with the news. If you want to argue he was, then you’ll have to argue Manny and Ortiz were…
The Yankees, Red Sox and Tigers have been stealing signs electronically for decades. They’ve even been caught, with no punishment whatsoever.
The Tigers? Get real. But, out of curiosity, was it their offensively challenged teams of the 2010’s? Or, is it the crappy teams of recent that lost 100-ish games?
Can I get video evidence of them stealing signs electronically?
Liar. The Yankees have not been fined for stealing signs. The Red Sox have. After the Red Sox were caught, they accused the Yankees, for deflection. It seems to have worked because people like you keep repeating the lie.
You have a knack for speaking out your butt but never offering any evidence. To my knowledge the Sox were guilty of using Apple watches and the Yanks guilty of using the bullpen phone.
“The investigation found “insufficient evidence,” according to a statement released by Manfred’s office, that the Yankees used their YES Network cameras to spy on the Red Sox, as Boston had alleged in a counterclaim. MLB did dock the Yankees a lesser undisclosed amount for improper use of a dugout phone prior to this season.”.
What are you referring to?
Watch the executive turn out to me Mike Elias. He gets fired and the Orioles come out worse than the Astros.
I hope there’s long suspensions for Crane. Lunhow, Hinch and the coaching staff from ‘17, wherever they are now. Werent the Red Sox im trouble in in ‘18 for stealing signs too, I.E Alex Cora (former Astros bench coach). Who ever wa son the staff should be suspended regardless of where they are now. On top of the suspensions fines and loss of draft picks and international bonus money.
You know other teams are doing it too.. Astros are just the team that has been found guilty of it and will be made an example of. In a game where so many players and other personnel change teams so frequently, why would they make this so easily known throughout their organization? Sign a few guys like Bregman, Altuve (done), and Springer to long-term deals, and keep it quiet with those guys.. maybe go a step further and put earpieces in their helmets. They had to know this would come out eventually.
Here we go. Just say “everybody is doing it” with zero evidence and you’re done having to care about the ones who have done it.
They also did it in a way that was super easy to find proof of after the fact. So go find any other team banging cans in such a connected way to results! Lots of games to go through buddy!
I am pretty certain Seattle wasn’t stealing signs and if they were they were as pathetic at it as their last 3 GMs before Dipoto.
Does that mean that all of the teams under .500 don’t know how to watch a tv screen?
Whether or not someone knows how to watch a tv screen is not the issue.
Next year pitchers and catchers will have earbuds and the coach will call the pitch and the pitcher will be able to shake off. No more stealing signs.
Then other teams will just intercept the frequency or something lol
We’ll end up with drones shooting at each other over the ballpark the whole game.
The minimum punishment should be no draft picks or international bonus money next year, Hinch gets a 1 year suspension, and the team gets fined $10 million. The league needs to make an example out of the Astros
they arent suspending anyone’s manager. most likely they lose their top 2 picks in 2020 and maybe some in 2021 as well, they pay a nice fine, and have international spending restrictions.
I know it’s a different sport but Sean Payton was suspended for a full season after the Saints bounty scandal came out. With all of the evidence against the Astros, a full season suspension for Hinch is more than warranted
Gonna have a blurred out crotch now when we watch the games. Just to hide the signs. Thats going to be so annoying. Thanks stros!
why? you like looking at them?
Hahahahaha haha oh my god that’s the funniest thing I’ve ever read. I’m sitting here reading the previous comment about blurring put a crotch and you come up with this genius response “why? you like looking at them” implying that he’s a homosexual. Just brilliant stuff!!!
It was a little bit come on
Maybe in 1998
Hinch one year ban. Frozen offseason, no signing, no extensions, no trades.
Or 20 million fine and start the season 0-30.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
Your second one is impossible with an 0-30 record. Wins then have to go somewhere. Who are you rewarding with the wins? Opposing teams? You just gave the Angels 10 automatic wins, the A’s 6 wins, the Rays 7 wins (what would that do to the AL East?), and a few other teams a few wins.,
Plus, 20 millions is pennies.
Your first part is more realistic, but has issues: I do not like Hinch but: Was Hinch behind it? Did he even know? Was it higher? I am not into banning someone without knowing who was behind it and how much others knew or ordered. I would think there are obvious answers, but get the person who is behind it. I am actually OK with a lifetime ban for that person and a suspension for others involved. There cannot be a frozen off season though because players are leaving so that is impossible. I would take their draft picks and give it to anyone but the Nats.
Of course Hinch knew. You think he didn’t hear the incessant banging of the garbage can?
As an Angels fan, I’m perfectly comfortable getting 10 free wins against the Astros next season. 20 would be even better. Just saying.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
GeoKaplan – lol I would be too.
The 0-30 idea is nonsense. Lol
DQ the Astros from playoffs a season or two, like the NCAA does for university infractions they lose bowl game eligibility.
Here is one made following 2017 WS challenging viewers to find Yu Darvish’s tipping. Too bad the video doesn’t show the eye and head movements like the other one I posted on the original Astros Accused article. You can find those links toward the bottom of the list. “The young man’s video”
Marc (Phillies Phan)
I agree but this goes beyond tipping. I think hitting tipped pitches is acceptable as that is gamesmanship and does not involve real-time technology.
Darvish and Kimbrell both tipped; and to me, that is not cheating. But adding cameras for taking real-time signs is wrong. Just sit in the dugout and watch them. Simple.
Going to watch the video now. Sorry if I commented prematurely.
I admit I do not have the eye skills to determine Darvish’s tipping or not, I just thought someone here might be able to clearly tell. It is the story we were told.
And having watched the other video which shows closeups of Astros hitters during ALCS and WS looking out into to their bullpen for instructions repeatedly within a second or two after the catcher sign, this does not show on the above Darvish vid. That guy made above video without the knowledge we have now.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
Good points on all. I could not see Darvish tipping but I trust he was as that makes sense. Heck, I barely saw Kimbrell tip, so my eye is not great for it. Like I said, if they caught it by watching i.e. observation, it is not cheating in my opinion. If they are using technology to relay signs in real time, that is.
Go look up what Yu Darvish said on game 7. He says he doesn’t think they stole signs in game 7. He WAS tipping his pitches, at least in game 7.
Yeah but, those statements are before they knew how the Astros were doing it. Darvish just followed the narrative at that time, like most fans of baseball did.
Wow the Astros are (and should be) screwed!!
the Astros are the grossest team in sports. absolutely disgusting behavior from their entire management.
the New York Jets medical staff would like to have a word.
It is entirely possible that cameraman Kyle McLaughlin may have been used as a decoy. He would likely pass a polygraph as he really didn’t know. Or he’s one of the culprits and the league misjudged his actions.
How about forfeiting multiple round picks over next few seasons and firing the GM and his entire staff and AJ Hinch!
I was gonna suggest having each team affected in the playoffs also be rewarded pucks but that would not be helpful for every other team.
Can they have hockey sticks, too?
Still need player suspensions and banned from the All Star game for two seasons. No way Altuve and his stolen MVP title should be let off scott free.
And all the money should be returned. No way players should keep remuneration for a stolen season.
1)forfeit 5 years of 1st round and comp picks. Only hurts org. Not incoming players.
2) Coaching staff 3 year ban.
3) gm and owner 5 year ban
4) any players involved get 60day
to 2 year suspensions depending on actions, ie beltran devises system.
Even if players just get 60 day suspension that itself changes the 2020 season by taking talent off the field. Will create a hole another poster kind of alluded to. It would be nice for them to start 0-30. That aint practicle, but if they were only able to field Aa and AAa players for 60 days it would deliver the same medicine.
Maybe they should just send the entire 2017 Astros to the electric chair
And players return the money and Altuve’s MVP is stripped. Ban the players from the All Star game.
I wonder if gerrit cole saw this coming, he made a rather quick exit there
As a GM, would you now sign Gerrit Cole?
Yes. No doubt.he is good.
Only question is what is penalty.
Will mlb deliver verdict quickly? The pitching staff knew about all this. All players deserve some penalty. They all benefit whether it be wins or rbis.
No astro can claim innocence
Though i wont pay him to be suspended. Have to have some contractual protections for that..
Suspended players forfeit their salary while suspended.
Not paying him for a suspension is helpful but the team is still losing the services of its most important player. Ouch. This is a big issue.
Cole is a pitcher. I fail to see how he would benefit from those actions. He knows if someone’s bunting? Stealing? Taking on a 3-0 count? What are you talking about? I don’t think Cole is Marwin 2.0
Simple. He wins more.games. he knew it was happening and said nothing.
He knew it was a benefit to him.
Point was how do you sign a player that may be facing suspension
You guys are crazy with your proposed punishments. It’ll be something that doesn’t really affect the current regime or team like loss of a few draft picks and some low fine that they will shrug off.
They need to be stopped, and they should definitely penalize the orchestrators of all of this… but 5 year bans, lifetime bans, vacating titles, nuking Houston… that’s a bit much
What about, if true, they did this. They stole millions of dollars in WS championship team money awarded to them. I did a quick search and saw the 2016 Cubs split $27.6 million. I think this will move beyond the commissioners office and into federal courts if true. If a group of us went out and stole $20+ million we would be behind bars. So a little much to call for bans and vacating titles? I’m kind of behind something on that level
Good point about stealing. I’m on board. I wanna see lifetime bans, year long suspensions, and million dollar+ fines.
Maybe their insanity has to do with what Rob Manfred said “If Houston is found guilty of these allegations we will lay down punishment in such a way that no team ever thinks to try this again“
Hope Manfred knows what that means and means it.
Wait until it comes out that they were deflating baseballs.
I think they should not be allowed to play in a bowl game. Seriously? Who cares? Do you think you can’t come up with a coding system that can’t be hacked? And change it every inning? Every batter? Use all the things at your disposal. Be creative. Let the pitcher signal the catcher. Let the infielders use signs. Have the pitcher turn around before each pitch. Use the organist. Major chord = fastball. ii-V-I means change-up. Use kazoos. Dance moves. Wave different cards. Do the hokey pokey. That’s what it’s all about!
So nobody felt the need to say something while still being paid by the Astros?
No, nobody felt like asking to get fired.
No one wanted to get a reputation as a cheater. Like “MVP” (yeah, right) Altuve.
M04ever is salty.
He has a point though.
Altuve surely hsd better stats than he would have without knowing the pitches.
To question his mvp award is without a doubt understandable
They banned Pete Rose for betting on his own team. How many get banned?
they’re not banning anyone for this. there will be suspensions and fines, but this is not on the level of bans.
Why not? The article says it came from the GM. There was a GM given a lifetime ban a couple years ago for paying players too much. This guy is actively cheating, affecting the outcome of actual games. Lifetime bans for the GM and the scouts involved. No international signings or first 3 rounds of draft picks for 3 years.
Lol this as much ado about nothing. Yanks mad because the Astros are much better than they are. Should we strip all the titles the Yanks bought? How fair was that? Grow a brain, change the signs. If you are stupid, you deserve to have your signs stolen.
This is the opposite of “much ado about nothing”. That said, there would need to be something more serious before I stand in the column of strip a title. The penalties for what we do know should be extremely stiff as things stand today, though.
You deserve to have your signs stolen.
Nothing illegal about “buying” the most FA’s or having the highest payroll (that title goes to the ’18 Red Sox, who “bought” their title). Get your facts straight.
There is no way to quantify actual wins achieved through stealing signs. The Astros are a talented team. Their 2017 WS title will remain as it should. I believe, if proven, fines and suspensions are appropriate. Stop with all of the self-righteous nonsense.
Knowing what pitch is coming and where is huge. No way Altuve “earns” his MVP without what pitches were coming at him. No way. Very questionable this team makes the postseason without it. It’s a totally different game with stolen signs.
Of course it’s questionable making the play offs without stealing signs. My point is, there is no way to know. They are talented so you can’t say definitively they wouldn’t have. Let baseball run its course. If it’s proven to be true, then baseball will handle it.
How talented are they, really? Marwin Gonzalez looked pretty good on the Astros. Not so much the second he left.
Good point. Too bad for the Twins. They should a do-over on that deal.
They are a very talented team by anyone’s standards who knows baseball. It would be ridiculous to suggest that the only reason they have been successful is because they were stealing signs.
It would be ridiculous to suggest that they weren’t cheating to give themselves an advantage, and that it didn’t give them an advantage. Quantifying how much of an advantage it gave them is an impossible exercise that serves only to distract from the intent of the cheating. It’s like someone getting caught cheating on a college entrance exam to get into Harvard and then claiming they’ve have gotten into Harvard even if they hadn’t cheated on the test.
The disparity in team strikeouts between the Astros and the rest of AL 2017-2019 is really all you have to look at. But if you want more, notice how they went from 14-15th in the league the 4 years prior to ranking 1-2 in the league 2017-2019.
It baffles me how serious statheads/sites out there didn’t notice this a year or even two years ago!
Exactly. There’s no way to know.
Okay, so there isn’t a formula out there which predicts runs scored by a huge decrease in strikeouts? Right-o! Those X runs scored would lead to Y wins.
Back to school for you.
Probably someone could arrive at a number but controlling the variables to produce a credible number would be difficult and the method endlessly debatable. My point is that this exercise isn’t necessary and is worse than unnecessary if it distracts from the main point. Which is, they at least were trying to obtain an unfair advantage by cheating. How good they were at it isn’t the issue. All this said I am surprised by how quickly this discussion has tailed off. It’s hard to believe that baseball fans aren’t interested in this story anymore.
@BlueSkyLA, I agree with you. Perhaps MLBTR isn’t the most popular forum for these discussions, but I personally feel this is a much bigger story than where Gerrit Cole is headed and what he signs for.
I’m not bothered by the wheel continuing to turn, as it should, but some of a different taste might continue the torch as there are many unanswered questions and some theories that suggest even crossing the line into felonious action.
Even if this story is contained to what we know already (which seems unlikely), it is huge, possibly the baseball story of the decade. Might not have been quite so big had the team in question not played the postseason the last three years running, but they did, and this only magnifies the significance. Either way MLB doesn’t want a dirty game so the next chapters of this story are bound to get the attention of even the most cynical baseball fan.
I believe further evidences are contained and/or in continued development. So far, we have the most info on 2017. The next two years are still being looked at.
Four days ago Michael Kay show was all about fines and draft picks for punishment. Now they’re taking ownership out, selling the team and players, managers all banned or suspended.
This is the hot stove.
If you don’t mind I am going to discount what is being said in the NYC sports media. They get a lot of milage out of their audience by making it all about themselves. Those same penalties have been suggested here, so it sure isn’t about originality let alone new information. At this point all I am hoping to hear is a commitment from the commissioner to get to the bottom of this. All the way to the bottom. Then we can talk about where the chips should fall.
Initially, people said fines and draft picks would be adequate punishment. Now they call for firings, suspensions, banning, ownership forced to sell.
To my knowledge, what hasn’t been discussed is when or why haven’t the sponsors pull out. I don’t see any downside in delaying it.
As I mentioned elsewhere I don’t believe the commissioner has made any public statements about this situation yet, nor have any of the team owners. Only one player to date is on the record, as far as I’ve heard. So people can say anything they want but they are only blowing off steam so long as the people whose opinions actually matter remain silent.
I would suspect because he is in closed meetings with the owners. Passan tweets from Manfred reported on Yes Network.
This has probably already been asked. If so I apologize. Besides a warning being given prior to Houston’s cheating, what’s the difference between what Houston did and what Boston did? Boston seems to have gotten off light compared to some of the punishments that are being suggested for Houston
Because at the time it sounded like the warning to the Red Sox was the final warning MLB was giving to teams about using technology. A lot of people did think the Red Sox deserved to be punished, MLB choose not too and give a warning.. There’s no way they can just sit around and only give a warning now.
This scandal is also ALOT bigger than what the Red Sox did.
If I am reading the reports correctly, the sign stealing of the Astros is a systemic, organization wide effort. The Red Sox’s sign stealing efforts, as Manfred specifically noted in his public statements, was confined to on-field personnel.
The difference is that you have a player from that team exposing this and admitting to it. There is an admission of guilt from an insider that now will be impossible to cover up.
The difference is the Astros did it against the Yankees.
They should put an asterisk next to every Yankee bench player that had an amazing season. That wasn’t just “great coaching”.
Brilliant…except it’s exceedingly stupid. In one case there’s plenty of hard evidence coupled with circumstantial evidence against the Astros In comparison, you’re saying wow..”Yanks had a few replacement guys that had unanticipated above average performance”. Yet you have zero evidence of any wrong doing. You’re just a troll that likes to hate on the Yanks and invoke a response. You won. Feel better?
The Red Sox did it against the Yankees, too. That’s why they accused the Yankees the next week, without evidence.
I don’t really have a problem with players stealing signs. Its part of the game, but I do have a big problem if they are using technology to do it. If you want to be on 2nd base and alert the batter, go for it, but expect a 99 mph ball in your temple.
Holy crap, it was the fedora?!?!?
To the mattresses! Probably only relevant to those who used to follow Goldstein on Twitter…
Bless you. The enduring unsolved mystery of our time.
When watching televised games, if no one is on second, any idiot can figure out what pitch is coming. They need more complex signs. Most pitchers throw three or four pitches… you can make it harder to steal. And as often as they talk to each other, they can change it up or have a sequence of pitches planned. I bet more teams do this, Astros just got caught.
If the pitcher is tipping his pitches or the catcher is lazily allowing the opposition to see his signals then so be it. Part of the game. But to use a TV, radio and then signal the hitter? That’s beyond. Even if the pitcher and catcher switched it up it can still be figured out? How many times should the pitcher/catcher have to change them up before the it gets confusing?
I guess it wouldn’t take but 5 pitches before a team could figure out the signals if they could see the catcher. Televised games, I would look to see what the catcher put down and would call the pitch. 1 fastball, 2 curve, 3 slider or whatever 4 changeup. 5 pitchout or fist pickoff. I mean they aren’t hiding it because teams aren’t supposed to be looking. When someone is on second, it changes and is really hard for me to read it…, it’s either the third sign down or the fourth if the catcher has his mitt on his knee….. if the catcher grabs some dirt, then it resets… it’s pretty complicated, but these guys can still figure it out pretty quick. They need to really work hard to hide it now.
right, after this investigation can we see how many other teams are doing it? every team has their own way of stealing signs. that’s how the game works. rules are rules, but personally, this doesnt look as bad as hacking an organization and potentially having access to sensitive information. find who in specific did it, then punish the whole team if it was found to be known by most.
I would add the following to the existing suggestions of suspensions for managers -coaches and forfeiture of draft picks and international money: How about a big fat asterisk next to their name in all references to 2017 WS explaining that they cheated?
Baseball remembers its history. They won’t live that down.
They can’t whitewash this or sweep it under the rug
Baseball has already gotten boring, it can’t be rigged, too.
Manfred was brought in to clean Tony Clark’s clock at the bargaining table and he certainly accomplished that, but he’s allowed an almost unimaginable erosion in the quality of the game in just a few short years.
He can’t mess this one up. If he does…say hi to boxing and horse racing in the dustbin of sports history.
his biggest crime is getting rid of message boards.
Shame on Goldstein and the other dirt bags that thought this was a good idea. A writer, turned executive that probably never played baseball in his life and has no respect for the game
IF guilty of this…..MLB needs to take away draft picks, suspend GM, & fine ownership.
What do you mean IF guilty? We already have a member of that team admitting to it. There are already numerous videos online exposing exact situations.
The NFL didn’t wait to find out if Garrett was guilty of swinging a helmet at another player’s head.
I don’t know it this is a case of situational ethics. Okay to steal signs from 2nd base but not okay employing technology to do same. Regardless this thing just stinks.
one is legal and the other, illegal.
It’s a situation that screams for an Adam Schiff investigation…..
Schiff is a moron, but at least he’s not babbling and drooling with his pants around his ankles like Nunes and Gym Jordan
“I don’t see the problem here…?” – Bill Belicheck
You can’t get away with how often guys change teams. Only a moron would think it’s possible. For people calling Fiers a snitch, what is he supposed to do, let his current team lose when he knows guys are cheating? He is on the team that finished second!
So this looks like a a cover up. Why would scouts do something like that. How could you spot a superstar when giving a player a cheating edge
Kevin Goldstein wasn’t a baseball guy, he was a writer for Baseball Prospectus, ESPN, and Baseball America. Writers don’t think like athletes. They don’t care about the history or integrity of the game. They just want to be included in the baseball world.
Isn’t that right Dylan and Anthony?
Can someone tell me why the Astro’s use a system that they would do in little league? A Camera with some guy sitting in the tunnel banging on a garbage pail? If that’s not making the MLB into one big embarrassment then I dunno what is!.
You mean to tell me with the millions of dollars these players and coaches have they went a route banging on a pail instead of using some sorta ear plug. Not one of them with the millions they have could think up an idea to use some sorta wifi or bluetooth ear plug? Now that’s 100% insane.
Also what about the people and to me it seemed the entire franchise was in on this betting on these games? Aren’t these games fixed and isn’t this something the FBI should look into?
This team should be stripped of it’s WS title and every head honcho should be Pete Rosed from baseball!
I think the fact that betting is now a full on part of sports, this is more dangerous than most people think. The Astros changed the betting landscape ny cheating. Not all bettors were informed. There are far more “injured” parties than just mlb and other teams.
This organization is an embarrassment for the sport of baseball.
Manfred can’t let this stand. The Stros are attack the integrity of the game.
reduce Houston’s cap from 208 million to 168 for 5 years plus fines.
I can see that happening. Plus the loss of draft picks and international pool money.
People need to start being realistic about what kind of punishment the Astros should and will receive. They’re not gonna strip them of the 2017 title and nor should they. Tainted or not, it’s not good business. PEDS is a lot different and one player on a team using them is a lot different but according to MLB, that’s still cheating. Therefore, if they’re not gonna strip the A’s of the late 80’s, the Yankees from 1996 to 2000, and the Red Sox in the David Ortiz era, then they’re not gonna strip Houston. Cheating is cheating after all. Furthermore, banning the Astros from the post season (like some people suggested) would be bad business. Houston is a big baseball market and banning them from the post season for how ever many years would lead to loss of profits. Either of those forms punishments would be punishing the Astros fanbase just as much as the team/franchise itself. Many people are gonna be disappointed when the Astros don’t get the ridiculous forms of punishment they feel like they deserve.
If they don’t have management bans (even if temporary), lose draft picks, get player suspensions, and return the winning$, then it won’t be sufficient to prevent future abuse.
Innocent until proven guilty!
Already proved guilty!
They aren’t going to strip titles or dip into the past. They will take draft picks, fine everyone, suspend managers, etc.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I feel a fair and balanced punishment is for the Astros to be forced to trade Alex Bergman for Brandon Belt straight up. That’s a punishment that will really send a message MLB doesn’t condone this type of behavior.
the sterling don
This is the only way
SF fan? 🙂
Also, beware, Bregman may not quite be the same player without knowing what pitches are coming.
All MLB games are televised. 99% of the time the signs are visible to everyone watching from the centerfield camera covering the coming pitch. Why would any team need a special camera?
broadcasts are delayed. have watched muted tv and listened to radio? radio is about 8-10 seconds ahead.
If they crack down on the cheating, look for the offenses to decrease and the “great” teams to come back down to the rest of the pack.
In my opinion, I imagine there is gonna be a lot of Rangers fans next year…
Let’s hope so. With the new stadium, and living in the shadow of a cheating “dynasty,” they could use it.
The punishments for this are going to be a mess for MLB to figure out. If it was just 1 or 2 players using it with the camera in center then the lose of draft picks and a suspension for the players that used it seems fair. The coach that suggested it and (if they can be identified) the people who set up the camera should probably be banned from baseball. And Hinch would have to receive some type of punishment most likely a suspension because it happened under his watch and he didn’t stop it.
Unfortunately it sounds like more than just a couple players took advantage of it and everyone in the clubhouse knew about what was going on which makes them all guilty of not stopping it. You can’t suspend the whole team so what do you do for punishments? The lose of draft picks still makes sense. You could suspend the players that are still on the team that you can prove used it but depending on how many used it and how long MLB determines the suspensions to be it could be a mess. Plus you have guys like Marvin Gonzalez who is playing for the Twins now. If he was using it how do you handle that because you don’t want to punish the Twins in 2020 for something he did with the Astros 3 years ago. And if Cora and Beltran were involved then again how do you handle their punishments as managers for other teams now?
I’m on the fence about the strip the title and making them ineligible for post season play debates too. The Astros won the division by 21 games so it isn’t guaranteed that they win the division without the help but they probably would have. And even though we suspect that they were still doing it in the playoffs until there is solid proof of it happening you have to still expect them to win. But if we do find out they were still doing it in the playoffs like we suspect then it taints the championship and they really don’t deserve to be called champions anymore.
Making them ineligible for the post season sounds great as a punishment in theory but it would cause problems too. Lets say it would be a 2 or 3 year ban starting in 2020. First it hurts the free agent market because what good player is going to want to sign with a team that can’t make the playoffs for 2-3 years unless they overpay? You take a team that is spending big money out of the market for those years and the players association is going to go ballistic when there is already tension and threats of a strike. And why would the Astros want to spend money to field a good team that can’t play in the postseason? The players aren’t going to want to sign extensions either so they probably end up trading everyone that isn’t going to help you after the ban for high potential prospects that are 2-3 years away from being ready for MLB. With the amount of talent they have to trade you basically just gave them a free pass to tear it down to the studs and rebuild the same way they built this team but now they are back to having a young cheap team with a loaded farm system to try and create another run at a dynasty.
The degree and types of punishment meted out will depend on the extent of the cheating, who directed it, who participated in it, and who perhaps knew about it and failed reported it. This seems like at least three distinct categories and what happens to the people in those categories should be different. We don’t know the complete answers to any of these questions yet. It is certainly not worth trying to guess whether the Astros would have won any given title without cheating. That’s not only completely unknowable it’s besides the point. The point of the cheating was the intent to gain unfair advantage in a game where everybody is supposed to be playing by the same rules. I agree that future ineligibility for the postseason is an unworkable idea. Of all the possible punishment options this one is about the worst.
Why can’t you suspend the whole team?
If they can skate past this and hang it all on an exec that still not stop this freon happening again.
This is not being tried in a federal court. I don’t think you need absolute proof To hand out any punishment. By Just being in that dugout , it is hard to believe that any member of the Astros was not aware of the system of sign stealing.
Punish then all. Only way to do it properly. Anything less would be incomplete. Players don’t get to skate free. Bad precedent.
Seems to me the league could issue punishments based upon the 2017 evidence collected, and delay punishments for 2018-2019.
Beyond obvious office punishments, players involved should be suspended. So, if any team out there has a player or coach from the 2017 Houston Astros, it’s probably a good idea to plan for a worst case scenario.
I also wouldn’t touch Gerrit Cole right now as this could potentially affect him too.
Interesting point about Cole. He doesn’t swing a bat very often of course but at this point anyone on the team could be implicated by their silence alone.
Yep, Did you see the Astros strikeout rates dramatically shift in 2017-2019? I’m actually amazed all the guys here or other sites didn’t find this highly unusual.
I agree. This really throws a wrench in Cole’s FA bid. Who wants to spend big bucks on a player that could be suspended? Even if the team doesn’t have to pay during the suspension, they still lose arguably their most important player during that period…
With impacts, seems like MLB is under the gun to resolve this quickly so everyone knows how to proceed.
Who wants anyone from the Astros right now?
Cole wasn’t a member of the 2017 Astros. It would be hard to punish him for anything.
Gerrit Cole, with mom, having chicken dinners for at least one year, no pay.
I know, it’s tough on the poor guy. But only then would he redeem himself in enough fans eyes for a ball club to take a chance at him.
That goes for: Joey Cora BOS, Carlos Beltran NYM, Marwin Gonzales MIN, Cameron Maybin NYY, Brian McCann (retired already), Nori Aoki NYM (should be on the plane right now), Juan Centeno BOS, AJ Reid CWS, JD Davis NYM, Tony Kemp CHC, Tyler White LAD, Max Stassi LAA, Colin Moran PIT, Teoscar Hernandez TOR, John Musgrove PIT, Dallas Keuchel ATL, Charlie Morton TAM, Mike Fiers OAK, Tony Sipp WAS, James Hoyt CLE, Michael Feliz PIT, Ken Giles TOR, Tyler Clippard CLE, Jordan Jankowski LAD, Ashur Tolliver SEA, Jandel Gustave SFG, Francisco Liriano PIT, Luke Gregorson (shouldn’t have tried coming back), David Paulino TOR, Dayan Diaz LAA
That’s just the 2017 guys. The rest will probably come next year.
Each player associated with this team will pay the iron price.
This is telling us that Altuve, Bregman and Springer are not as good we think they are!
You mean Altuve might not have won that MVP if he didn’t what pitchers were coming? Darn straight!
The MLB should void Altuve’s contract! I believe Altuve is going to be making $29 million a year.
The 2017 title stands. Hard to play the “what if” game after the fact.
The players can make many arguments that they either did not know or did not pay attention, much to Fiers’ chagrin. Although Fiers will do the right thing and return his World Series ring to the Houston organization, right?
Besides, the players will have their day if they put up Cooperstown-worthy numbers. Some will punish those guys for this.
The execs and coaches are the ones who should take the fall. They know better. If they find more concrete evidence heads will roll, as they should.
Or they can all keep their jobs with these penalties:
– A $30-mil dollar fine spread over five years going against their luxury. That money will be donated to a baseball-related charity, either to supporting youth baseball camps or building new baseball fields.
– An open draft, one round, of every prospect within the Astros organization with rookie status. Rankings are based on 2019 record. All 29 teams are involved, and they can televise it. Call it a glorified expansion draft. A camera will be set up in the Astros facility for live reaction shots to losing their best prospects to other teams.
Nobody loses their job, all will have a second chance at redemption and the penalty will have been severe enough to teach people a lesson.
“The players can make many arguments that they either did not know or did not pay attention”
This is ABSURD on its face. ALL the players and Hinch knew. If a batter could hear the garbage can, everyone in the dugout could hear. Everyone. And it couldn’t go on all day long without each and every player learning why.
“Besides, the players will have their day if they put up Cooperstown-worthy numbers.”
Altuve barely won the MVP over Judge. No way he does so without knowing what pitches were coming. I doubt he would have had his resurgence the second half of this year without it. His numbers will NOT be the same.
B! B! B! B!
I’m late to the party, but in college football this would be a “death penalty” offense. I.E the program is effectively shut down indefinitely. Obviously, MLB isn’t going to shut down a money maker, but the penalty needs to be similarly serious.
Vacate the 2017 World Series along with any individual awards for Houston players from that season, void Hinch’s contract and suspend him for a minimum of one year, ban Luhnow for a minimum of two years, and quite possibly force ownership to sell the team for allowing this to happen.
Yeah, it’s excessive, but it has to be excessive if you want to be certain this will never happen again. Send a message to every owner that if this happens on their watch, they’re done.
AllRise. I agree. Make it hurt.
Strip Altuve’s MVP title. He barely won it over Judge. Judge clearly would have won had he know what pitches were coming. Likewise, Altuve would not have won had he not known what pitches were coming.
It burns me too. But that’s tough tk do.
Hey altuve, You wanna prove your stand up guy?
hand over the hardware yourself.
Send the trophy to the dodgers.
I bet that kind of admission can generate compassion and forgivness.
Yeah, if Altuve forfeited his MVP and returned his WS winnings I might seriously think about forgiving him. These guys should take the initiative and step forward and make amends on their own.
Here is the latest Jomboy video. He’s become a collection house for fan investigators all over the country. If you prefer watching a video as opposed to reading or don’t like making your own searches, I recommend this.
A must-watch, whether you read or not.
Agreed. Fantastic video. The amount of evidence against Houston is crazy. Originally I didn’t expect much to come of this, but based on everything that’s coming out, I’d be shocked (and VERY disappointed at MLB) if they don’t get raked over the coals. So blatant.
Every Astro player given a one year suspension. Every game in 2020 played by their AAA team and manager.
Astros still sweep the Tigers.
I would be ok with every player getting a year.
Coaches get a year.
Hinch banned cuz he is so smug. Total jerk.
Joe Torre comment, Nov. 15th
Where are you on the rationalization scale?
1. It didn’t happen,
2. It did happen, just not a lot.
3. It happened a lot, but everybody does it.
4. Not everybody does it, but it doesn’t make any difference.
5. It makes a difference, but not enough to really matter.
6. It makes enough difference to really matter, now stop talking about this because my head hurts.
Or, you could skip over all those steps and just accept the facts.
Sorry, but none of the above. It happened a lot and it matters, now stay on top of it until serious steps are taken.
I believe you missed the point.
Ah. “rationalization.” Got it. Sorry. You’re right, I missed it.
No problem. I don’t think anyone got the point.
The Astros used to be the Colt 45’s. So install 45 as their new president (he’ll need a new job soon) considering he’s a perfect fit for a cheating and lying organization. That will be a bit of excessive punishment but it won’t be the first time a president had his mitts on a Texas baseball team.
he has to run it from a cell in guantanamo.
With video technology?
Ah, those dang ‘Stros tainted the once delightsome Mr. Goldstein too, huh? I guess when it’s win-or-leave, your unreasonable compulsive side might rear its ugly face. His old podcast helped solidify my interest in the bigger things behind the game of baseball, notably statistical analysis and their use of identifying as developing prospects.
Chanches the Astros lead the league in getting hit by pitches next year?
What makes it worse is how arrogant they all are after scoring runs. Bunch of cheaters, i can’t wait for them to get drilled and cry about it as if anyone will feel sorry for them.
The level of ego was way off the charts.
I never liked bregman because of how he acts. This is sad but makes me thinks so much less of him and all the others that were ok with stacking the deck against fellow players in their league, for their own benefit. Mlb players union cant say a word….they must at least pretend to care about everyone.
As some of you may know, Joel Osteen is a Houston-based, popular religious leader. Baseball’s Jose Lima highlights the quote from today’s word:
“During the 1990’s, Jose Lima was the star pitcher for the Houston Astros. One season, he won 20 games and was considered one of the best pitchers in the league. When the Astros moved from the Astrodome to their new ballpark downtown, the fence in left field was much closer than the fence in the Astrodome. It favored the hitters and made it more difficult on the pitchers. The first time Jose Lima went to the new ballpark, he stood on the mound, looked at the fence, and the first words out of his mouth were, “I’ll never be able to pitch in here. The fence is way too close.” Sure enough, he went from being a 20-game winner to a 16-game loser. It was one of the biggest negative turnarounds in the history of the Astros. What happened? He prophesied his future.
Today, don’t get snared by the words of your mouth. When negative thoughts come, don’t speak them out; instead, speak life. Speak hope. Speak blessing. Speak what you seek! Speak the Word of God so you can move forward in the victory He has prepared for you!”
joel osteen believes in all mighty dollars!
I’d sooner move my fence….
Aaron Judge should’ve won the 2017 AL MVP Award. Better stats and no cheating
Absolutely. No doubt at all.
Their 2017 title should be taken away since there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that they cheated during the regular season, ALCS and World Series. There is a huge thread on reddit with over 100 videos showing their cheating.
Vacating their title is too retroactive and not meaningful. I’d suspend AJ Hinch for a year. He knew about it and benefited from it. It would have a direct on the field impact that would be felt.
Following the narrative with what we’ve learned from Passan:
The Indians found this McLaughlin guy at their stadium posing as media in a restricted area, they then warn Boston and McLaughlin is again caught in Boston.
McLaughlin has pics on his personal social media showing him with the Astros owner and aboard the private jet.
McLaughlin is not a registered employee of the Astros organization.
I think he’s a decoy. It makes sense to have some suspicious side-action to defer attention. Astros were vindicated from McLaughlin’s actions, effectively dodging their true campaign or buying them more time.
As an A’s fan….
Here’s what MLB can do:
1) Remove the Astros from the draft for a number of years (you choose the number of years)
2) Remove all international draft picks/money for a number of years (again – you choose)
3) Ban senior F/O personnel for a number of years (guess what?)
What MLB cannot do:
1) Remove the WS title
2) Ban the Astros from the 2020 post season
3) Ban players from an arbitrary numbers of games (again, you choose)
It’s all a bit simplified but what the commissioner can and can’t do is explicit. This isn’t a Lance Armstrong situation where a title will be left unclaimed for seven years.
MLB bans or suspends players without pay for any probationary period they deem fit, for a variety of reasons. They just did it recently with yet another domestic violence case.
Perhaps it is different across the pond, but if the league has issue with a team even, they could scurry that team right out the door!
Today’s Michael Kay show
The NYC sports media is all lathered up. Not hearing that around here, at least not yet.
Well, y’all best get on it!
I’m still in shock. At least I’ll always have the hawk trap guy…
It just seems like stealing signs would just be too easy these days. Major League Baseball is pretty naive to think this isn’t happening all over the league. Clubs need to get smarter and disguise their signs better or an even better idea, constantly change them in game. You could make a team stealing signs look pretty foolish for doing it, if you guard against it. You could even make it work in your favor!
We don’t know what MLB is thinking, only what is not allowed by the rules and current policy. The commissioner hasn’t even made a statement about this scandal or said how he intends to address it. All we know is interviews are being conducted. This sounds like an investigation but we don’t truly know even that much. As far as I can tell, the team owners have also been silent on the matter. Pitchers and catchers already mix up signs far more than they used to do. That’s why catchers now have those cards on their forearms and pitchers look at notes inside their hats. But there’s only so much you can do to defeat technology-assisted cheating. The message should be it isn’t allowed and will be dealt with harshly. Anything less harms the integrity of the game irreparably.
This is what happens when your fire most of your scouts …. you have to cheat to get an edge.