There have been persistent rumblings that the Pirates could respond to their disastrous 2019 season by going into a rebuild phase, and that speculation only increased after the recent trade that sent Starling Marte to the Diamondbacks for two longer-term prospects. While changes are certainly afoot in Pittsburgh, a full-scale rebuild isn’t happening, or at least not by new general manager Ben Cherington’s definition of the term.
“If I think about the word rebuild, what comes to my mind is a team that has been doing well that you are taking apart to then rebuild it, and you’re in the process of doing that,” Cherington told Jason Mackey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. As an example, Cherington (who most recently worked as Toronto’s senior VP of baseball operations) described the Blue Jays’ thought process following their consecutive ALCS appearances in 2015-16, as “we knew we were going to have to rebuild that roster” of increasingly aging and expensive players.
Just over three seasons later, not a single player from the 2016 Jays remains on the team’s current 40-man roster, yet Cherington said such a drastic overhaul isn’t necessary for the Pirates. “A good chunk of players who were on the team last year will be on the team this year, and they really do have a chance to be part of that next winning team. We’re just trying to build toward that,” the general manager said.
In fairness, Cherington admitted that fans may not share his specific view of what constitutes a “rebuild,” and knows that Pittsburgh supporters simply want to see a winning team back on the field. As we’ve seen in recent years from teams like the Astros, Cubs, and Phillies (or, presently, by the Orioles, Marlins, and Tigers), rebuilds have become most often defined as a strategy that involves a team deciding to overhaul its entire organization in a scorched-earth process that involves trading away all veteran talent and rebuilding around younger players, and subsequently asking fans to be patient through four or five years of losing baseball until the club is again competitive.
This type of total remake isn’t necessary in Pittsburgh, Cherington feels, as “we’re not tearing something down to start over. We are simply taking a team that wasn’t good enough or wasn’t as good as we wanted to be last year, but has a group of players with a chance to be much better, and we’re trying to build on that. If we had made four or five other trades [besides the Marte deal] involving more established Major League players who were on last year’s team, then maybe I’d think about it differently.”
These comments aren’t far removed from the recent statements from Pirates owner Bob Nutting, who said that one of the primary focuses of the new front office would be discovering how to better develop and get the best out of their current players. While adding more talent to the roster is also a chief priority, Cherington may not feel compelled to trade such notables as Josh Bell, Chris Archer, Gregory Polanco, or others if they feel these players haven’t yet reached their ceilings. Of course, payroll considerations will always factor into the club’s decisions, though even if more expensive players like Archer or Polanco are eventually moved, Cherington may prefer to wait and see if either can have bounce-back seasons under the new coaching staff rather than trade them now in what could turn out to be sell-low scenarios.
For what it’s worth to build again is the definition of re-build. Wordplay won’t satisfy Pirate fans.
Cherington wants to be clever. There are teams that are rebuilding like the Giants, but they do not admit it. Why the Giants did not re-sign Bumgarner? It is because they are rebuilding. He is only 28. By the way, Bumgarner will be missed as a San Francisco Giants.
That’s not necessarily true – you can build by removing players that they
feel aren’t part of the ingredients for
a playoff team – to rebuild would mean cleaning house – there being selective about who they get rid of – that’s not a rebuild.
They are building from their 2 good controllable players.
Boring statement. Teams gotta start from somewhere.
Bumgarner is 30
You haven’t watched Bumgarner the past 3 years. His best days are behind him.
Francy MadBum has not been 28 for 2-3 years now
Yes you are right. My fault. I thought he was still in his 20’s.
No problem. I wish they could have kept MadBum. But, his Giants contract was a major discount. He deserves a huge contract on the backend of his career.
Sure Pirates,LoL
Not necessarily. A rebuild would strip the team and go for only prospects. A build would take what they have and fill holes and work into strength
No, what he’s implying here is the team has problems and instead of removing them, he’s going to build around them, thus ensuring more failure over the next decade+
You can’t rebuild what never was. Cheringtons point is that the pirates are already bad. They aren’t rebuilding a bad team, because that would mean the end result would be another bad team. He’s saying they are trying to build up to a winning team. He’s absolutely right. Most people misuse most English words.
Why doesn’t he just come out and say we are rebuilding. come out and watch some hungry, young future superstars.
I’d buy into that and respect it. But instead he chooses to be a conman like his boss.
Huh? What difference does it make? Teams are always building because no team is perfect. Players are always getting older, or injured. So, you always have to add to your talent pool. So, there is no con going on.
So in other words hes just saying that they’re not taking offers on Bell or Archer.. yet.
Freddy H is more in tune with all the greater baseball minds. Freddy H has found the greatest trade that will benefit Pittsburgh Pirates.
Freddy is a seer.
You can call it whatever you want. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it must be the Pirates rebuilding
or Duck Hodges starting for Steelers. lol
Call it what you wanna call it
Good sign for Pirates fans, i’ve looked at their depth chart before, and that’s what I said. New catcher, new center fielder, and some more starters and they will look good. If the astros don’t manage to resign Springer, I see him as a target for Pit next year.
I don’t see Pitt playing out the $250 mil it will take to sign him.
Well I think they might have the budget room lol.
Unfortunately there will never be a signing like that under a Nutting ownership.
I would be ok with this… if I thought they’d be in the market for someone at $150M. $200M is too much of a risk for a small market, but $150M could still provide flexibility to put the rest of the team together. haha. There’s no doubt they don’t have as much money as the big markets, but Nutting proved he refused to spend when it was needed. If that doesn’t change, Cherington has his hands full.
Springer would be a good addition as long as he brings his garbage can.
Dude why would springer ever even consider that
Just sign Springer Realmuto. Couple starters and they win the central. Maybe Mookie too.
Nutting wouldnt even resign Marlon Byrd or Morneau when doing so would’ve potentially put them in the
World Series.
…now you think hes going to pay 5x as much for Springer????
If the Pirates signed Springer, there would be a now hiring ad in the local classifieds for 25 people to play alongside him for Pennsylvania minimum wage, given the cheapness of their owner.
ya okay Benny
Ben Cherington and Jeff Tweedy were separated at birth
Used to absolutely love Wilco. Saw them like 10 times in the aughts but goodness its been ten years since then. Glenn Kotche and Johnny Greenwood from Radiohead is another possible twin separation. Young Glenn anyway, Johnny doesn’t age.
Indeed! Saw Wilco a half a dozen times or so around the NE area around the same timespan.
I remember they were in Milwaukee to do a show at the Pabst Theatre in like 08 or 09 and the night before Jeff went to a Cubs-Brewers game at Miller park and was on the air with the home TV guys for an inning. At the show, he made a joke of putting on his Cubs hat at one point, and when a fan threw a Brewers hat on stage, Jeff ever the showman, tossed his Cubs hat offstage and put on the old ball and glove logo before going into the next song. Place went nuts.
they traded away marte Cole meadows and Glasgow. Outside of archer I can’t name one player they got back.
Absolute joke of a franchise. Wish my team would trade w them way more often
Felipe Vazquez is available.
That’s the thing, they had a build or rebuild just about ready to hit MLB. Had they simply avoided the Archer trade they’d be so much better off.
Meadows, Glasgow and about $8.5 million in net salary savings to go get some help or keep Marte around.
Glasnow and Meadows weren’t happening in Pittsburgh. If not for the archer trade the Gm and manager would still be there. Meadows would be a 20 hr guy at best and Glasnow would be a dominant reliever with some control issues.
Meadows looked super good in limited time with buccos.
Searage should’ve been fired after messing up Cole, not given a 2nd chance to do it all over again with Glasnow.
Pretty simple, let guys who throw 100, throw 100
They should just cash in on Bell, Polanco and see what they can get for Archer at this point.
They will. No contender needs a 1b or 2b or Bell and Frazier would be gone. Being Archer And Kela are still there they must think they can improve their trade value. But they will be gone at deadline if healthy. If archer is trash they will include some lotto tickets to salary dump him.
All of those guys can improve their value during the first half of the season.
If they’re not rebuilding now, they absolutely will be at the trade deadline.
Pirates should do at least one trade this year, ST or Trade Deadline, Kela who is in the last year of his contract and won’t fetch a QO and compensation pick. The next expiring contract is Archer’s, but I agree with Cherington, wait and see if he rebuilds some value instead of selling low.
Anybody that has the right value will be gone except Reynolds Newman And Keller. Kela and Archer even if no value.
Agreed. Bell, Archer, Kela will be gone by the start of next season
As a Pirates fan, I dont really care what Cherington does with the 25 man roster the next couple years. The most important thing is how he drafts. Huntington’s last few drafts have been absolutely awful. Cherington needs to draft the best players available, not value picks. If Cherington drafts and develops properly, the Pirates could look to contend in 2023.
Aside from the odd stud that rockets through the minors most spend 3-4 years in the minors plus a few years to become truly productive players, if the Pirates want to compete in 2023 it won’t be through the draft.
eh. College players could be there in 2 years, easily. and the league keeps getting younger. A lot of 21 yr olds making debuts.
I get older, but they stay the same age.
That is not true. abgbd123 is right. … very few guys are in the majors at 21 and 22 years old. Most guys dont break in until age 23,24 or 25. And most guys aren’t beginning to hit their stride until age 26-28
That is not true. abgbd123 is right. … very few guys are in the majors at 21 and 22 years old. Most guys dont break in until age 23,24 or 25. And most guys aren’t beginning to hit their stride until age 26-28
That’s like saying they’re gonna play good but not play well
“As we’ve seen in recent years from teams like the Astros, Cubs, and Phillies (or, presently, by the Orioles, Marlins, and Tigers), “. Why would you add the Phillies to this list? May as well put the Mets both have had failed rebuilds/retooling. Should say Braves or reds or twins not the .500 team Phillies. Rant over.
Agree. Phillies idea of rebuild is spending half a billion on new players to be 500.
Lolol! What a gem Ben Cherington is. One of the worst executives in the sport, IMO. Used this same doublespeak when he took over in Boston, something to the effect of: “Well we would like to move forward with our young players, we have a lot of young talent, but the previous regime got us into financial trouble”, IE I want to use Epstein’s young players to win but am blaming him for the state of the team. Shocked to see him as a GM and feel for Pirates fans. Cherington has no identity as an executive, and no “touch” for the position. Sorry, Pirates fans.
Except that that is exactly what he was hired to do.
Pin the blame on Hurdle and Huntingdon to provide cover for Nutting to run out $40 million payrolls for a few years.
Give the guy a chance on his moves. But crap just fly out of his mouth. So by only trading 1 player means it is not a rebuild, you have to trade 4 or 5 guys to be rebuilding. So when Pirates trade Kela archer at deadline. And bell Frazier in off season, does that mean it is a rebuild? Or do you have to trade all 4 or 5 at once?
Derek Jeter said something very similar, 2 years and then some ago. The upshot is just “good teams go into a rebuild, bad teams go into a build.” Kind of a worthless distinction when the actions are identical.
Can’t spell rebuild without build.
that’s true. to “rebuild” there has to have been something built before.
“kay”
Tough to build when one of your biggest trade pieces faces over 2 dozen charges against them (Vazquez)…not a good situation.
That’s a big gut punch toward the rebuild.
Yeah, not NH’s fault but I sure wish they would have traded him at the deadline when it was obvious he was going to fetch a nice return. At the same time, would hate to dump that mess on someone else.
That’s a big gut punch to life. Gross and disgusting on all levels. And to read details of how he met this girl from the bullpen. IF anyone deserves the Pete Rose sentencing from MLB (regardless of the justice the courts will give him) it’s this guy.
Agreed RunDMC. If even 10% of the reports are true the justice system will remove him from baseball for several years, maybe decades. At that point I think the lifetime ban will be implied.
I doubt he sees the light of day until he’s an old man.
That would still be more than he deserves.
Yeah I’m a dad to girls and can’t even imagine what I’d do if I was his victim’s parent. It probably wouldn’t be something rational or sane.
Vazquez will never pitch again
It’s a build. Don’t say the Re word.
He’s right in the fact that a rebuild requires you to initially be “built”. Pirates haven’t been built to win in several years.
As a Pirate fan I like the approach he is taking. They already had a roster of young, promising players last and they just need to rebuild the farm system and slowly add smart free agent pickups. There was no way they were contending for a World Series under the previous management team. Nutting is never going to spend big money so they have to be smart and lucky.. I like our chances with Cherington!
“They already had a roster of young, promising players” – that’s debatable.
They have a terrible 40-man that will never even go .500 even if everyone breaks out, and one of the most barren farm systems in the game.
A new GM should sell everything not nailed down and start totally fresh.
The 40 man isn’t going to win much. There are parts and pieces but they are going to need to hit on quite a few trades and prospects to be relevant within the next three years.
You will get a better idea come draft time. If he drafts high school he is looking down the road if it’s college guys he has a shorter term plan. I think the Pirates really lucked out getting him.
…eh…not necessarily. The last couple of drafts have been a coin-toss between one year being high school heavy and college heavy. This year, I believe is trending more to college bats/arms with ASU’s Torkelson, UGA’s Hancock, Vandy’s SS Martin dominating mock drafts. In many of those – it’s still early – college picks far outnumber high school, so it’d have to be quite a display within a few months for teams to trend that way with their picks.
Really no reason to rebuild since most of it is done. the 20-21 off season will be interesting, as will the trade deadline.
We’re trying to build means we’re rebuilding but we’re too chicken s&&& to admit what we’re doing and we still want you to spend money on our crappy team.
Wait, did we pass the point of, “we will add when the time is right” or was Derek Bell the big splash?!?!?
To build or rebuild is not the question. The answer is to spend money to improve the team and not your improve your bank account
Pirates fans who don’t let this guy chart his own course over the next few years are ridiculous and probably only the most casual of baseball fans. He’s got a good track record and has a lot of damage to undo.
So you admit there’s “damage to undo” but then want him to build on the damage, interesting…..SMH
What are you SMHing about? Damage as in bad trades, poor development. He’s brought in (hopefully) better coaching to hopefully improve the baseline. Need to be better about when and what we trade. Makes perfect sense to me.
Absolutely agree. These things take time and he’s done some good things in Boston and Toronto. I’d say focusing on upside in the Marte trade was a good start. Neal would have focused on less risk but lower ceilings.
Yeah, NH was focused on near-majors talent in every trade, even if it wasn’t that good. That’s a big reason we are in the current situation, along with the Archer trade and bad coaching.
Yeah,except when neither of these two guys that he got for Marte make it you will realize that he gave away one of the best center fielders in the game for nothing,
Ben, if you consider this building, you are a slumlord.
This is the exact WORST thing he could have said.
Pirates have a weak farm and a weak 40-man, their only choice is to rebuild.
MLB should probably look at contracting them, or forcing their owner to sell so they can buy FAs – its just a waste of a franchise otherwise.
They say ostrich has less fat, but you eat more of it.
…the world as it is according to Strike. We have all been told. Take action!
oh, wait. Ignore him and move on. Loves to represent uneducated opinion as fact.
Remember, it’s not a lie if you believe it.
Strike four is up to Strike 437 at this point but,God bless him,he just keeps chuggin’ along.
I guess that you have to give him credit for at least that.
GM interview question #1: describe the current pirates philosophy?
*a half hour later with everyone dizzy and panting*
yea…yea that’ll do.
Build is just an innuendo for rebuild. Simply the word “rebuild” has become the “r-word” around baseball. It’s prohibited to say the r-word around baseball now. Jeter, now Cherington. Obviously the word build and the word rebuild have different dictionary definitions. But if we are using the dictionary of these words, since we want to be politically correct, isn’t what the pirates and what the marlins did the past 2 years, a rebuild? They are building something has been destroyed. The destruction came from trading players from the major league roster for players not on it.
Don’t count the Pirates out guys, they have a good chance at winning the division, and possibly more. That 40 man is damn scary.
I’m a die-hard Pirates fan and I’m counting then out.
Lol what a joke. Even he doesn’t believe that, just flapping his lips. Absolute trash organization
If only he spoke Hovitos!
Throw me the idol, I throw you the whip
I guess if you bulldoze the house it’s not really “rebuilding” if you start from scratch
My guess is his plan is to build up the courage to admit they’re headed into a full rebuild. What bothers me is that it feels like a team that has enough talent a couple quality FA signings would have made them interesting for the next year or two and since they’re not willing to do that a tear down would have been the next choice. But instead they drag out that rebuild another half year or more.
I would like to see them build out the roster with interesting bounce back candidates. Give the fans something to be hopeful about while acquiring potential trade chips.
If it is just a build and they want to assess their current players then that is understandable but there are other ways to add talent. There were and still are options for the Pirates to buy prospects by taking on a teams bad contract but that costs money. An example would be the Dodgers trying to get below the tax penalty and are willing to use prospects to dump Joc’s money. Joc could be flipped or QOed, either way the Pirates would get a prospect in return. The Pirates could also have acquired some TDL flip candidates or traded for teams competitive balance for the the upcoming talent loaded draft. These situations along w/ the build/rebuild BS says all Pirate fans need to know The Pirates dumped Marte’s salary and will do the same w/ the other expensive contracts and could care less about being competitive.
What bad contracts do the Dodgers have? What makes you think the Dodgers want to give up their best prospects. And what would the Dodgers want from the Pirates?
Ummm the Dodgers are trying to dump Pederson to the Angels for prospects which Cherington could have offered more than Rengifo.
Why would the Pirates want Pederson? Seems to me they’d have to give up to much to get someone they don’t really want.
Umm why did the Giants want Cozart? I think you are missing the point of the Pirates buying a prospect so they don’t have to give up much. The proposed deal on the table from the Angels is Rengifo, I think the Pirates can afford to give up something similar for Pederson and a prospect plus getting a prospect from flipping Joc at the TDL or from a QO.
Although I agree with the points you make, the example you gave regarding salary dumps is wrong. Joc Pederson was not a salary dump. Joc was traded because they have no room in the OF for him, hence why they tried playing him at 1B last year. They had to get rid of Joc so they got prospects and Rengifo for him. It’s not a dump, especially since we don’t know the prospects coming back. If we want to talk about a salary dump, we can look at David Price. The Red Sox lost a great deal in return for Mookie by attaching Price.
Players the Pirates could discuss that would net them some prospects, could be Chris Davis, Albert Pujols, Miggy, Cano, Myers, Longoria, Desmond, Upton, etc. although some of these aren’t realistic because of NTC or other reasons.
Otherwise, I’m in agreement with you, the Pirates should be in the market to take on salary dump type players that would net them prospects. The pirates desperately need to do something because as an organization as a whole, they’re not looking good.
I don’t think the return in prospects is worth the salary taken on. Do you have any successful examples?
The Marte trade was nothing but a salary dump. Nutting is a disgrace. He thinks the fans are stupid and we will be happy with a bobble head.
Most trades are salary dumps. Mookie Betts is a salary dump. That’s the game today. Trade away expensive declining assets that aren’t in your future plan going forward.
Except that Marte would have been more desirable at the trade deadline if two long term prospects is all the Pirates could get now.
Mendozaaaaaaaaa!!!! Maybe. Gotta hope Marte isn’t hurt in July. Now what contender is going to need a centerfielder bad enough to give up these better players then what they received? Hopefully Marte is just as good this season as last. You don’t see him getting even better do you?
Then don’t trade him unless this was a salary dump which it certainly seems to be and that sends a bad sign to Pirates fans and certainly goes against what he said about a “ build”.
Not sure what build versus rebuild means anyway and even if they are different that it matters.
Drew Waters , Foltynevich for Colin Moran, Kela
I have a strong feeling that wouldn’t happen.
Pirates have nowhere to go but up. So he is not really rebuilding when they already sucked, Semantics is fun.
Dress it up however you like Ben. Regardless of rhetoric your job is to make the Pirates a perennial contender for years to come. Call it a build, call it a rebuild, call it a reload, call it whatever you want. Won’t matter. Make them a powerhouse or take another demotion with another team.
Cherington should team up with Nancy Pelosi. But before that go out and resign Felipe Vazquez. What an absolute joke of an organization. My heart goes out to Pirates fans.
Comment fits the name. Love it.
Thanks for your condolences.
I remember when the Pirates didn’t rebuild from 1993 to 2012.
He is right and he is wrong and he is full of crap. He needs to just keep his mouth shut though cause at least on here Pirates fans have been seeing through this teams lies for a long time. A true by definition of a rebuild would of been when trading McCutchen and Cole. Getting prospects for Cole. Trading Cerveli Polonco Marte etc and not acquiring archer.
So technically they are just in a build. They are going to build the team around 1 very good outfielder and a middle infielder lacking power. Quite a build. Bell and Frazier are free agents in 3 seasons. So either trade them before that or do you want to resign 2 guys in their late 20s, one can’t play good defense the other not enough power. Rest of position players are crap. Besides Keller all the starters are free agents in 3 years. They are all 4 and 5 starters anyways. So yeah it’s not a rebuild because there isn’t anything to down. They only players you would want to keep are locked up for 5 or 6 years.
Ful of crap part is ” if it was a rebuild we would of traded more than just marte” marte was only player that had any value or more would been traded. Now Bell and Frazier have value talent wise but no market for them. What contender is desperate for a 2b 1b dh? If a opportunity rises they will be gone. Archer and Kela we be gone at deadline even if they don’t approve. A famous pirate salary dump or a smart baseball depending on your take on things.
What is Pittsburg’s payroll looking to be this year? Do they have any long term commitments?
What is Pittsburg’s payroll looking to be this year? Do they have any long term commitments?
50 million. Polonco and Archer are only big contracts if 8 or 10 million is big. Archer is in next to Last team option. Polonco might have 1 more year or maybe this was the last then a couple team options. Rest of team is arb 1 or less. I am just ball parking. Do a search and there are sites that have every teams rosters.
In order to rebuild you have to have the pieces necessary to trade off to get the parts you need to rebuild.
Pittsburgh doesn’t have that. The only thing they have left to rebuild is Joe Musgrove, Josh Bell,Keone Kela and possibly Chris Archer if they can get him back on track. Other than that they really don’t have anything that would bring in decent talent to improve the team greatly.
Gregory Polanco, Adam Frazier, Trevor Williams, and Colin Moran aren’t going to bring much if anything at all. So therefore there is no way to truly rebuild the team.
No one expects the Pirates to suddenly decide to expand their payroll tenfold and bring in numerous FA’s but sheesh, no one expected the last FO to cast out numerous veterans and then decimate their minor league top talent
That’s the most galling factor for Pirates fans. Dumping veterans and their contracts might have been ok if there was talent coming up through the pipeline. Five years ago we were hearing that the minor league system was among the top 5. What did it yield?
Now, we have a team too heavy in young infielders but without any pitchers, catchers or outfielders anywhere near MLB-ready
The GM can call it what he likes but it’s going to be a long haul. This team is closer to the Jason Kendall era team than it is the Cutch era.
I just don’t know how fans are supposed to be excited about it
Austin Meadows and Tyler Glasnow come to mind as far as what the minor leagues yielded even though prior management thought they would rather have Chris Archer
This is NH-issue verbal gobbledygook. If it’s not a “rebuild”, why do you take two teenagers in exchange for Marte instead of someone closer to MLB ready? The Bucs won’t be ready to contend until 2023 at the earliest–and that’s a rebuild.
They took the two teenager as building blocks. That does not mean rebuild
So those guys will be ready by, say, 2024–how many guys from the current Pirate roster will be there? If you’ve turned over more than half the roster by the time you’re looking to contend again, that’s a rebuild in my book.
Cherington is using Mark Shapiro speak he learned with the Jays. The tank of the pirates is on for this year and they will suck for many years to come.
More spin from pirate brass. They should run for office, couldn’t be any worse than the D candidates
I was born in 1982. Will I have to live to 100 to see a pirates championship?