The Diamondbacks were handsomely rewarded when last they dealt for a player named Marte, and they’ve doubled down on that strategy. The Snakes announced on Monday that they’ve acquired outfielder Starling Marte from the Pirates. High-upside youngsters Liover Peguero and Brennan Malone are going back in return, along with $250K in international spending money moving to Pittsburgh. The Pirates will also reportedly pay down $1.5MM of Marte’s remaining obligations.
It’s another fascinating gambit from the Arizona front office in what has been a perhaps unexpectedly aggressive winter. When the offseason opened, there was more talk of trading Robbie Ray than of pushing to dethrone the Dodgers in the NL West. But Ray remains with the club. And after dealing away Zack Greinke at the 2019 trade deadline, the D-Backs have now added multiple veteran pieces to the roster — including veteran hurler Madison Bumgarner — and seem poised to contend.
In making this swap, the Diamondbacks are adding a consistently above-average offensive performer who is fresh off a robust .295/.342/.503 slash with 23 homers, 31 doubles, six triples and 25 steals in 586 plate appearances in his final season with the Pirates. The 31-year-old Marte has been at least 12 percent better than a league-average hitter in every season dating back to 2013, with the exception of 2017, by measure of wRC+. He doesn’t walk much but also boasts a low strikeout rate (16 percent in 2019) and high-end baserunning value.
If there are questions about the now-former Pirates center fielder, they center around his glovework. Marte won a pair of Gold Gloves with the Buccos back in 2015-16, but that was when he was playing left field alongside a still-in-his-prime Andrew McCutchen in center. Marte took over center field on a full-time basis in 2018 and delivered above-average to excellent marks in Defensive Runs Saved (+1), Ultimate Zone Rating (+3.2) and Outs Above Average (+10). However, those metrics soured on his skills across the board in 2019 (-9 DRS, -7.6 UZR, +2 OAA).
That 2019 downturn notwithstanding, Marte now seems poised to step into an everyday center field role in Arizona, thus allowing rising star Ketel Marte to settle in at second base on a full-time basis. The pair would anchor a revamped Arizona lineup that has already gained Kole Calhoun and Stephen Vogt this winter. Marte — the prospective new acquisition, that is — is earning $11.5MM in 2020. Because Pittsburgh is paying $1.5MM of that sum, he’ll tack another $10MM onto the 2020 payroll for the D-backs. He’s controllable for another season through a $12.5MM club option that can alternatively be bought out for $1MM buyout.
That contract was a major part of Marte’s appeal. He signed it back in the spring of 2014 — a hopeful time for him and the Pirates organization. Things didn’t quite develop according to plan, though both player and team found success at times. Marte sat out for half of the 2017 season owing to a violation of the league’s PED policy. The Bucs took three-straight Wild Card appearances (2013-15) but haven’t been back to the postseason since.
The situation in Pittsburgh reached a boiling point after a highly disappointing 2019 campaign that significantly downgraded the team’s near-term outlook. This move represents the first major decision for a new leadership team — president Travis Williams, GM Ben Cherington, and manager Derek Shelton — that was installed after the offseason was already underway.
It’s not especially surprising to see Marte on the move. He sat atop our most recent ranking of the top trade candidates in baseball. Given the rough seas the Bucs had sailed upon of late, it made good sense for the organization to cash in the veteran and set the looking glass to the horizon.
Cherington is hunting for gold with this move. Both of the young players acquired are seen as possessing massive ceilings, but they’re also still a long ways off. While it’s tough to glean too much from a singular trade, it’s nevertheless notable that the newly minted Pirates’ baseball ops boss opted for high-ceiling teenagers that aren’t close to MLB-ready rather than focusing on players who could make an impact in 2020 or 2021. That’s not to say that the Pirates did poorly in their return, but perhaps a hint that Cherington and his staff believe the timeline to contention isn’t exactly a short one. Baseball America and FanGraphs each graded both Peguero and Malone among the top 10 prospects in an Arizona farm that has drawn increasing praise for its depth of quality talent.
The 19-year-old Peguero split this past season between the Rookie-level Pioneer League and the short-season Class-A Northwest League, hitting a combined .326/.382/.485 with five homers, 11 doubles, five triples and 11 steals in 249 plate appearances. Kiley McDaniel and Eric Longenhagen favorably compare him to Jean Segura in their scouting report, noting astonishingly similar body types and quick hands at the plate; however, they also tout him as a potentially superior defender to Segura.
Malone, also 19, was the 33rd overall pick in this past year’s draft. He draws praise for a heater that has topped out at 99 mph, a plus slider and another pair of potentially average offerings in his curve and changeup. Like Peguero, he’s years from making an impact in the big leagues but possesses a notable ceiling on which the Pirates can dream.
John Gambadoro of Arizona Sports 98.7 (via Twitter) reported that the sides were closing in on a deal. Jon Heyman of MLB Network (via Twitter) reported it was done. Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic (via Twitter), Robert Murray (Twitter link), Heyman (in a tweet), and Gambadoro (via Twitter) had details.
Photo courtesy of USA Today Sports Images.
I’m seeing double here!
How hard did the DBacks troll the Reds with this one?
Excellent obscure Simpsons reference.
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THERE ….. ARE ….. FOUR …. MARTES!
Captain Piccard, wake up! You’re dreaming about that time you were captured and interrogated by the Romulans!
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Lol glad someone got it
It was the Cardassians!
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Shhh I was gonna let that slide.
Kirk never would have been embarrassed like Picard was.
I’m glad the Matre saga is over. Now trade off all the other assets for prospects. It’s obvious the owners don’t plan on putting out a competitive team. It’s time to dissolve at least a couple MLB teams to make things more competitive.
Thx for the grace, Dynamite. Not much of that around here.
@rogers. Blast you for being right. =)
Bit extreme, don’t you think? Baseball doesn’t need to dissolve teams. Pittsburgh is a viable market, with great fans. They just have a terrible owner. The league as a whole just needs to move one team out of Florida, to Montreal. Then they need to tell Oakland to get it together, or move the A’s to Vegas. Otherwise the league is fine. Every team can’t win 100 games. Competitive balance is honestly a bit boring anyway when everyone is .500, and there are no great teams. Dynasties sell tickets.
DBacks stole this guy, nice move, Bucs should have asked for more, this helps the padres on the trade for betts
I’m very happy with the return.. Pirates farm is in shambles so adding some high ceiling teens is exactly what the doctor ordered
They have been trying to trade him for 3 months, with multiple teams interested. What would make you they DIDN’T ask for more This is a good return for Marte.
this will not help the Padres on the trade for Betts, Marte is not in the same league as Betts. And the Dbacks did not steal anyone, they gave up 2 of their top prospects for a declining over 30 outfielder
Prospects graded at 50 and 45+ respectively seems like a pretty darn good return. I would say that both teams made out nicely. Not to mention 250k in international money where the Pirates have been picking up quite a few interesting young players over the last two years is also nice.
Both are 45 FV, which means below MLB average.
I got the simpsons reference! Nice work baseball pun!
Being a zona fan, happy we got Marte but the Bucs are getting some high high ceiling guys. Honestly a good return for both!
Bill the Cat
I don’t get it…..and I’m a Simpsons fan. Little help please? Thanks.
Watch the episode where Homer has a side job impersonating Krusty the Clown. It’s also the episode where Krusty owes a debt to the mob.
Marte Bros. doin’ damage
*Super Marte Bros. If they still had JD..
They can literally have a Marte Partey.. no one else invited.
Sign free agent Jefry Marte to a camp invite while they’re at it.
Double up on taco Tuesday!
Marte for Carroll, Kelly/Malone, Henry/Fletcher/Cron, and maybe another prospect?
Not getting all that for marte something along the lines of carroll,malone/kerry, and henry seems fair.
I doubt DBacks do Marte for Carroll straight up but I’d love if they did
That was literally the suggestion minus “maybe another prospect”, mindless.
“seems fair”, yes to you, and only you knows what constitutes “fair”. Everyone else has a different interpretation of this.
Varsho has to be the biggest name coming back. Pittsburgh needs a catcher for starters.
Varsho was moved to CF…not sure if that means anything
@strike four again you act as if your opinion is supremely more important than others. Again i suggest you refrain from reading comments because they might clash with your superiority complex. This a free forum to debate and talk all things baseball clearly you didnt get memo
You should see his TPS reports.
Take him ! I’m happy Nimmo in center.
LOL! Of course you Mets fans would comment like this. It’s like the ugly dude that thought he had a chance to win the girl, but then sees she’s about to date someone else, so he says, “Take her! I didn’t want her any way! I’m going out with this girl with the big hands, Adam’s Apple, and facial hair.”
Honestly, if I were a Mets fan, I probably would rather have Nimmo’s controllability and cost efficiency. Marte is aging and only put up 5 more wRC+ than Nimmo last season. He also is seeing a sharp downtick in fielding. Almost -9 UZR/150 and -11 DRS last season. That was the worst at the CF position in 2019.
But yet, Nimmo’s offensive upside isn’t close to Marte’s. And Marte was moved to center. It’s not his normal position.
Nimmo has a higher career wRC+ so thats a very interesting take
From the Met’s perspective, it was is Sterling Marte worth Nimmo+….when Nimmo put up numbers similar to Marte, but he is younger, cheaper, and doesn’t have a PEDs bust. I still think Nimmo will out produce Marte this season and going forward, but even if he was 85% of Marte, it didn’t make sense for the Mets to move prospects AND Nimmo for a declining defensive liability like Marte.
I’m thankful that Arizona’s move will prevent Brodie from doing something stupid, which was the fear of many mets’ fans…myself included.
“We didn’t get an elite player so I’ll convince myself that he’s declining and done and that the scrub my team will play instead is better”.
What I gets Mets fans going on this is that the ask from the Mets–at least as reported in the media–was something like Nimmo plus two other top minor league prospects, seemingly a lot more than the Pirates are getting Arizona. The same thing happened with Realmuto last year, where it was two of Nimmo/McNeil/Rosario plus one top minor leaguer or the three-way deal sending Thor with Nimmo, McNeil, or Rosario plus one from the minors. Mets fans get angry when it looks as though management failed to counter an over-ask with something comparable to what the dealing team finally got. I’m not saying any of this is accurate, but it’s how it’s going to play with the tabloid columnists and sports talk hosts as well as in the comment sections on the internet.
I like Marte but he is not elite and Nino is not a scrub. You’d think someone named “thetruth” wouldn’t be spreading lies…
Bridie will have plenty of opportunities to make a stupid move… just wait.
Well, truth, the numbers don’t lie. 5 wRC+ points worse and a much better fielder tells me that a declining, aging Marte isn’t that much better *at this point* than Marte. If you’re a team going for it all in 2020, it’s Marte all day. If your window is two years or beyond, Nimmo is probably your guy. I mean, Pittsburgh got fleeced so obviously GMs didn’t find Marte to be super valuable.
I don’t think I would go with fleeced in regards to the return. A 50 graded SS and a 45+ graded starting pitcher already with high ceilings is a nice return. They will slot in at A, A+ with the pirates other interesting youngsters. The pirates are definitely in rebuild mode and you can see with who they acquired when they are building for the next wave. These two have an opportunity to make this a great return for the Pirates. A poster over at pirates prospects who is good with research stated for perspective that matching Arizona and the Mets farm systems up, in order for the Mets to match the return it would have been giving up there 3rd and 5th from top ten to match the 50 & 45+ grades…
Nimmo is certainly FAR from a scrub, but the rest sounds about right..lol
Nimmo is an elite hitter. It would have been an awful swap.
Please, Nimmo is hardly an elite hitter. I’ve been a Mets fan for decades and, while I love Nimmo’s energy, he has been extremely mediocre since his first half season. The league has identified his weaknesses and he had yet to fill those hikes. Add to that his recent spinal issues and I really have to wonder just how much an impact he will have on this team. With Conforto and McNeil both locked into every day roles and left handed, where does he fit? Cespedes is going to start against all lefties as long as he can and you don’t gain anything by sitting McNeil or Cinforto for Nimmo. He’s the Mets 4th or 5th outfielder right now.
In his only full season, he finished 4th in OBP and 17th in OPS.
Only mediocre players finish with stats like that.
I mean, what can I tell you if you don’t believe the numbers. Even being made to play when hurt his on base skills were extraordinary.
MLB Network rated top 10 center fielders right now 2020.
Marte was #6
Nimmo was #9
Not the difference between scrub and elite, I am glad as a Mets fan that they did not overpay for Marte,
Yes, he is an on base machine!! As a Braves fan, annoyingly so..lol I was hoping they’d trade him just to get him out of the division…
@MarlinsFanBase- Your response is transphobic garbage and I wish this site had a “report” option. (Maybe it does and I’m missing it?)
He should say whatever he wants. Much more of us are offended by people like you who censor free speech. For your information, men thinking they’re women and vice versa will never be accepted by society, most of us just pretend to avoid our lives ruined for the crime of our opinions.
No it’s funny. Newsflash the vast majority of us don’t accept men as women or women as men no matter what those sick people or SJW’s say. Their feelings are not more important than facts or ours. Take your SJW BS and shove it up you know what.
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I love it when awful people like you squirm now that atrocious and disgusting comments are called out now. Scurrying like cockroaches when people don’t sit back and accept your causal bigotry anymore.
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What’s it like being so hateful and diminutive? Is it because of your own insecurities? Because of your insignificance?
“thetruth” in 1850:
“Newsflash the vast majority of us don’t accept black people as human no matter what those SJW’s say. Their feelings are not more important than facts or ours.”
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Lmao you give him the too much credit. He’d probably say that today
thetruth: +1 to what Dynamite & Baseball Pun said above. You are vile and hateful.
The “report” option seems to be having technical difficulties. There was one until recently (last week). Thank you for calling out “thetruth” and his vileness.
@G Vanlue my grandma worked on a farm growing up, you know with her actual hands so they were quite large and powerful. By her 70s she had nearly a full beard that she actually shaved. She also personally had a larger Adam’s apple than I do. Thanks for calling her trans. You’re truly a hero of the people. Sleep well tonight your virtue signaling for the day is complete. Keep chasing those windmills
Crawl back under your rock, the (bigoted) “truth”
God created man. God created woman. God created us to reproduce. That is why Male & female have DIFFERENT genital parts. I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist. Nor do I have enough faith (&/or belief, i mean STUPIDITY) to think that I know better than God. He created me as a male and that is what I will ALWAYS be.
Why did God make hermaphrodites?
People can’t censor”free speech”. Your opinion on what humans can or can’t label themselves due to your “feels” is incredibly flammable also. Seem a little insecure dude.
Psssst, there is no god.
It’s not a “transphobic” comment, it is a transcomedic comment.
I wish they had an eject button for all eagerly offended, humorless virtue signaling scolds.
there is no creature such as your god
WTF dude, crawl back into your cave. How on Earth are parents of these fools allowed to procreate?!?
Now on topic, I believe that Nimmo provides a capable option going forward with an offensive upside and league-average defense at an affordable price
The reason society is screwed up is because people take other’s comments out of context to fit a narrative of hate speech, only to serve their own interest.
Commenting the way he did is not hate speech nor was it intended to serve as such, but as you puff out your chest, you announce that you would report him for such offensiveness. There is simply no evidence whatsoever that he meant that comment to be insulting toward any specific group.
This is the USA, wherein we have a Constitution with free speech. If you haven’t noticed, a large majority of Americans are tired of the old narrative of censorship, only on one side of course. But ask yourself, what if someone was offended by your accusations, and censored your speech? Would that subjectivity be acceptable?
Welcome to the real world – it’s big… and scary out here!
@Prospecrnvst – Well said. Factually indisputable and addressed topics many view as taboo in our society. But, I’m sure someone will find it offensive somehow.
Mets didn’t try to get Marte. We never made a real offer.
It’s about being able to sign Mookie next year!
Yes it is. Judging by the completed deal the Mets would have needed to send Alvarez and Baty. Since they have Nimmo who is likely to put on a WAR within 10% of Marte why waste the $$
or the prospects
I thought the Mets we’re getting Starling Marte for J.D. Davis, Jerry’s Family, and a bag of broken bats. What gives?
Such an average player in Nimmo to be excited about.
It’s not that Nimmo’s great (IMO, Mets fans grossly overrate him), it’s that Marte is an aging, declining corner OFer perceived as a viable CFer by fans. Thus, good riddance… and you can check my previous posts for consistency.
I know right? I HATE players who end a full season with an OBP like his. 2018 OBP leaders:
I also HATE HATE HATE guys that finish top 20 in OPS. That’s a useless stat that proves nothing. Being sandwiched between Harper and Bogaerts is terrible.
SUCH EMBARRASSING COMPANY
I’m trying to see which one of those players Nimmo can match in the other categories that aren’t OBP? Those guys can hit because of what they do when they swing the bat. Nimmo is only effective against pitchers that can’t find the strike zone. Elite hitters can hit the ball…not be ineffective when pitchers find the strike zone. The league has figured Nimmo out. “Throw him strikes! He can’t hit. Look at his batting average.”
Elite hitter? No. Elite walker is more like it.
He is not in the top 30 in 2019. He is not in the top 30 2018 and 2019 combined.
Why are you bothering to bring up what he did 2 years ago?
Can Nimmo play a full-season? Has he ever performed like Marte has last year? I get that Marte is aging, but the Mets are a win-now team. I would have gladly swapped Nimmo for Marte for a chance at a playoff run. Not that that move puts them over the top in a tough division, but I think it makes them slightly better in 2020. The Mets outfield defense is pretty questionable right now.
He played a full season in 2018, finished 4th in MLB in OBP and 17th in OPS.
Try again buddy.
When did Nimmo become an elite hitter?
His wOBA and WRC plus over the last three seasons are .361/130. Marte’s are .342/116 for his career.
Nimmo is not elite. The past two years he is not in the top 30 in wRC+ or OBP.
Or wOBA or offensive WAR or well you get the point.
Interesting. I’m being accused of making a transphobic comment? Where did my joke involve anyone that is TG? I described a masculine woman, which there are more born-female women that are masculine than there are TG women.
For the dinosaurs that made those accusations, FYI, gender reassignment medicine has advanced a great deal to where TG women are created to not have masculine features. It seems that if anyone is making a transphobic comment, it’s all of you that identified my joke about a masculine female being directed toward TG women. That is a stereotype of TG women – not a reality that exists with TG cosmetology and reassignment.
Dumb ashes! Are you all going to say now that me calling you all dumb ashes is a donkey-phobic or mule-phobic comment?
Talk so much yet say so little.
Where’s that Mets fan that talked all offseason like the Mets already had him becuase they had the offer that already beat everyone else? I imagine he’ll be disappearing or changing his screen name.
here I am, Marte is going to the Metropolitans Nimmo is horrific Cespedes will be hurt soon.
I’m betting Varsho is part of the return.
Love that Varsho is from a town called Chili. And that he’s named for the late Darren Daulton.
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Is he the son of Gary Varsho?
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Neat! Thx DS
You don’t know Mike Hazen. Varsho is probably in his top 3 untouchable prospect assets. I bet that Boston asked for Varsho for Betts.
Pls let him be a D-back, anything to give the Dodgers more loses. If they can manage this trade, the D-backs are a 95 win team. If the A’s can win 97, the D-backs can win 95.
Didnt realize how good diamondbacks farm was.
When those two are not even in the top 10, you know its pretty deep.
Yo Diamondbacks becoming savage!Love the move, this is a game changer for sure.
Pirate fan here.. you will love Marte.. all around good player but that arm is just incredible at diming guys going for home
I will miss Marte but I would like to see him find success elsewhere since we aren’t winning anytime soon. Hope the return is at least fair.
Haha exactly.. doesn’t need to set the world on fire, but no more Hintington getting completely ripped off.
I’d love Robbie Ray, but fine with some prospects to build around too.
Mendoza Line 215
Chances that either one makes it in the bigs are less than 50%.I hope that this trade gets panned in two years like the Archer deal.Giving away your best player is not going to make BC a GM for a very long time.
KermitJagger,give the frog a loan.
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Amazing I literally just watched The Old Man & The Gun last night, and Casey Affleck tells that joke in it.
I know it won’t happen, but Indians go get him!
How do the Indians factor in?
They need a major upgrade in their OF
Betts for Lindor
AZ somewhat quietly moving into a Wild Card caliber team. Nobody talks much about them, but they’ve made some nice big league adds, have a solid farm, and if they play it right nice future.
No one is catching LAD out west, BUT…the NL East is going to beat up on each other (much like the SEC in football), so AZ has a shot at grabbing one of the two wild card spots if they can beat up on the Rockies, Giants, and Padres. AZ could be sneaky good.
I have a similar feeling about the Reds being in a weakened NL Central. I can see the top 2 teams in the NL East grabbing playoff spots, but AZ has the inside track on the second wild card because the NL West is significantly weaker than the Central and East divisions.
Dodgers declined. The Dbacks got better from their 87 win 2019 team. Padres got better. Giants still have a shot at 80 wins. Those teams will take more games from the Dodgers than they did in 2019. The Dodgers will not run away with the NL West in 2020.
I would guess Varsho as the headliner. CF was the #1 priority for the snakes this offseason. Hazen has been holding his ground all offseason. He knows what he is willing to give up and has not budged.
Diamondbacks have a good deep farm now. Levi kelly/Luis Frias seem like type of arms Ben would target but doubt they are strong enough to lead the deal
I could see Robbie Ray packaged with some moderate prospects.
Obviously we need some worthwhile prospects in Pirate land tho.
Please D-Backs, please don’t trade Liover Peguero, Kristian Robinson, and Alek Thomas.. !
Any insight? Pirates fan wondering
And Brennan Malone
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We got Vikram!!!
Varsho and pitchers please
Holy crap! First Castellanos and now Marte! This is a great day for baseball fans to recover after Kobe’s death, R.I.P.
Varsho has got to be the centerpiece
Yeah the Padres are not getting anyone in a trade
If the d backs can swing this….simply wow. They have made some great moves in the last year.
If the d backs can swing this….simply wow. They have made some great moves in the last year.
If the d backs can swing this….simply wow. They have made some great moves in the last year.
NL is stacked
The Pirates arent!
Not trying to be
Don’t let it be Peguero and Robinson or blaze Alexander or varsho or tra Holmes
Please have Dalton Varsho going to Pittsburgh!!
Didn’t think AZ would seriously commit to Jake Lamb as the everyday 3B, when he never had that high a ceiling to begin with. This is proof AZ is seriously trying to contend.
They were never committing to Lamb as the every day 3B. Escobar would have stayed there and K-Mart remained in CF had they not been able to land an every day CF.
Good job, AZ! Slowly improving the team and progressing to challenge for WC spot. Marte is a hot commodity.
Peguero is goin back
#18 on the 2019 AZ prospect list on mlb.com, but was most likely going to rise a bit on the 2020 one. Not a bad piece if the other one is bigger.
EDIT: Yes, Brennan Malone, #9 overall, Nice gets by Pittsburgh.
Don’t look at MLB.com rankings. They haven’t been updated in some time.
Baseball America has both of these guys in the Snakes top 10.
Good trade for both teams.
MLB Pipeline just updated their rankings 2 days ago
Neither are top 100 prospects on the 2020 MLB and Baseball Prospectus lists.. Neither are top 20 at their position among prospects. Neither will help the Pirates before 2023.
Sadly, with the departure of 2 of their senior prospect writers, Baseball America has become something of a 2nd rate guide.
Really stupid report from Koamalu. Thanks for absolutely nothing. Peguero is a 50 grade SS in low A. Malone is a 45+ in low A. Maybe you don’t truly understand how prospect grading systems work.
To be a top 100 prospect at f’ing 19 years old you’d have to be a big bonus baby. The latter half of a top 100 list is flooded with either big bonus guys or guys who are near the major leagues. Anyone who doesn’t recognize prospect value off a top 100 list is an absolute idiot. Malone and Peguero are very valuable.
I swear to God if Carroll is going back that screws up my first pick in the dynasty draft LMAO
Marte is going to rake down there.
Varsho, Kelly or Widener, and another spec.
Yeah, now he is closer to those cheap Mexican PEDs.
You’re not still under the impression that Chase is a hitters park are you? It no longer is.
One of Thomas or Carroll plus Vasharo and an arm. Martin? Just my guess.
LOL… actual trade wasnt even on the same planet as your proposal.
Congrats to Dback and Bucs fans. I predict a 333 year from Marte. Hit around .300 30 hrs 30 sb. Pnc park is one of if not the worst hitters park in baseball. Gotta play for that last decent contract. And just think he will benefit from a change of scenery.
He’s never come close to doing that, so I don’t know why you’d think he’ll get it done in 2020. His career high is 23 HR (which is a long way from 30),he’s only hit .300 once, and has averaged 26 SB over the last three years.
I actually think the opposite will be true in moving to the NL West. He always got cheap wind homers at Wrigley and bandbox homers in Cincy. So not playing there will hurt. The Dodgers are going to strike him out a lot no matter where they play. He’s a .135 and .145 career hitter in San Fran and at Petco (15 and 20 games respectively). I think he’ll be lucky to get 20 homers or hit .280.
His projections improved from .287/.337/.468 to .295/.345/.500 after the trade. I wonder if they know something you don’t?
If Varsho is in the deal, I’d be happy to some degree. He has potential to be a decent offensive catcher that the Pirates really haven’t had since Russell Martin. I haven’t heard reviews on Varsho defensive metrics though. Pirates are known to be a defensive of club and wonder if Varsho fits their bill.
Peguero and Malone confirmed
Varsho’s problem is his defense… the bat could play at MLB level right now. They even tried him in the OF at the end of last season.
Wow! Now that free agency is mostly done this could be the precursor to a flurry of trade activity involving other big names like Mookie Betts, Kris Bryant and Nolan Arenado. Exciting offseason in MLB after last winter’s dud.
So based on the return it would seem the Pirates are hoping to compete again in 4-5 years.
True, also gotta wonder if they have a true firesale and let everyone know everyone on the current 40 man is available.
That Archer trade totally decimated the franchise. Kind of unbelievable how different the team would be right now if they did not make that move. They’d be adding right now.
They could’ve had Meadows, Glasnow, and probably some pieces from a Vazquez trade on the current team plus Baz and more prospects in the farm. Now they have none of that. Really unfortunate for the fans.
They’d also have to be able to develop Glasnow. He was a middling reliever with the Pirates developing him. A lot of credit has to be given to the TB coaching staff for utilizing his talent and finding what works.
No, I think it was just the Pirates trying to force him into their dumb pitching philosophy. You see a night and day difference in Charlie Morton from when he was forced to be a low contact groundball pitcher in Pittsburgh as to know where he’s allowed to throw his fastball. They draft these kids because they love the 99 mph fastballs but then force them to become something they are not in the majors. Good riddance to Searage.
Varsho was never a real candidate. Speculation is he may move off catcher.
Varsho was never a real candidate. Speculation is he may move off catcher.
That return seems a little light, but then again I am only going off prospect lists. Hard to believe the Padres couldn’t have topped that and not touched any of their top 10 prospects. Mookie Betts or bust I guess.
Really wish the cards would have made an offer, they have 2 top ten prospects they could have traded for a very solid marte. Good move for the snakes, more teams should have been in on him for this kind of return
Well I guess this means the Jays are going to give Alford and Fisher the chance to run with the CF job in Toronto.
I just dont see Teoscar ever being more than a corner OF / DH
Now that the Dbacks are out on Betts that pretty much leaves the Padres with the best chance at dealing for him
For the love of everything thats Holy, please dont include Gore or Patino in any deal to the AL east
From what is out there, it sounds like Campusano is the guy the Red Sox are going after. I am not sure if I would want to include him for what could, and most likely will be, a one and done thing with Betts. Mejia does still have some upside and the Padres also have Hunt in the minors, so they would be dealing from some what a position of strength.
Bell, Archer, and Kela next. Burn it down.
Bell, Kela, Frazier now…Archer at the deadline to build up some trade value…would be a give away if you trade Archer before the season.
So, are the D-Backs trading Marte to the Mets now? Because the Mets still don’t have him.
You act like we wanted him. Most of us prefer nimmo.
I was pretty sure he was going to end up being a Met. Not unhappy it didn’t happen though. If I had to bet my life on who is going to be better in 2020 between Nimmo and Marte, of course I’d take Marte, but not by enough to make up for the cost and control difference, not to mention Pirates weren’t trading Marte for Nimmo straight up.
Mets lineup will be deep.
Defense very questionable- Nimmo in center is at best average, and whoever plays left isn’t going to be a good outfielder (except when Marisnik subs into center and Nimmo shifts to left- that’s a good defensive OF). Third base, second and catcher look to be below average defensively. Shortstop and first hopefully at least average. Like I said, very questionable defense.
This rebuild is going to take some time. We are fully invested in Seven Springs…… I mean this organization.
I’m getting my playoff tickets for 2026, Raise It!
Looks like. It’s Brennan Malone and lover peguero two talented kids but way down the road
Sounds kinda light ngl
This return seems a little weak for Pittsburgh.
At least Huntington got Bryan Reynolds and drafted Newman and Bell
He’s going for two upside plays. The closer to the major leagues the lower the ceiling was going to be. Not a bad strategy to take for a team who is just starting a complete rebuild.
What did he get for Cole? Or Neil Walker? Or Jason Bay?
neither one of the two will see a regular season game with the pirates. they’ll be traded in deals.
Highly doubt that. The Pirates are just starting a rebuild. Neither of these guys will get traded.
Man, with what the D-Backs gave for Marte, it makes one wonder how the Pirates could resist an “elite hitter” like Brandon Nimmo.
He is a better hitter than everybody in the marlins lineup lol. You shouldn’t be talking.
105 more Marlin losses….incoming.
Because they didn’t. For obvious reasons, Nimmo was never in play.
Name a player that, in 2018 in his only full season, ranked top 4 in OBP and top 17 in OPS.
LOL nice cherry-picked stats
Name a player that in 2019 fell off the top 30 in both OBP and OPS. Nimmo.
I might be reading between the lines here but the Pirates took two very young guys back. These kids are 4-5 years away from possible MLB time if they take a year at each level.
That looks to me like the beginning of a significant rebuild.
They mention this in the article.
Why didn’t the Rangers do this!? Going to mlb’s website and looking at prospect grades, this is like the rangers giving up Winn and Acosta… WHAT, I thought the return was going to be huge for Marte, but that’s nothing…. jeez
Marte’s days of being worth a “huge” return have passed. Pirates did well getting 2 of their top 10 guys.
Neither are in Baseball Prospectus top 10 and only one is in BA’s top 10 and neither are in the top 100 on any list. .
You never know how their scouts value them. The Pirates had all offseason to weigh all the deals and this one was their favorite.
Dbacks farm is deep so you are comparing apples to oranges
In Hazen we trust.
The fact that Dalton Varsho is the most known commodity mentioned on this list should tell Pirates fans why he wasn’t included.
I am so glad that our other Marte gets to focus on 2B. What am infield! What a defense! It’s going to be a fun season if they’re all healthy. Fortunately there’s enough depth to give plenty of days off.
This is a fairly dissapointing return.
You were expecting more for a 31 year old outfielder that will have to be paid 20 so million for 2 years? I think 2 late first round value prospects is a excellent return.
Diamondbacks are slowly becoming dangerous. NL West starting to flex some muscle.
They’re definitely gunning for a Wild Card
They are gunning for the NL West title. They had an 85 win squad last year and have added 10 WAR over the squad they had in the 2nd half that went 39-32.
Well the return sucks from a Pirates fan prospective. Another SS and a Pitcher! I wanted to see a catcher of the future in this trade. Quite bummed out about this trade because the Pirates are filled with SS/2B prospects. From O’Neil to Kramer, there is just way to many middle fielders in the system. There goes their philosophy to convince the fans that they are going to trade players for positions of need.
Teams can’t always get what they want. This must have been best deal. Get a catcher through another trade. By the time this ss is ready Newman Kramer will be traded or pending free agents. Neither has enough pop and Kramer looks like a utility guy at best if he even makes it.
And you got pirate fans saying it would take nimmo + one or more of (Allen,Alvarez,Mauricio) lol
Hard to project prospects that far away
Pirates had no org need for another SS, so I’m pretty disappointed by this return. Varsho or one of their OFs would’ve made much more sense than Peguero.
If someone will even take Kela and his poor reputation.
Middle infielders often change positions before they reach the upper minors. Tucker is probably the only “true” SS the Pirates have of the major prospects. Cruz probably goes to RF and this new kid could easily move to 3rd or the OF.
Always a need for a SS. They are the most athletic and versatile guys on the field. You can move them to 2B, 3B, or any of the OF positions. How the bat develops is the only concern.
Marte at 2B is a 6 win improvement over Wilmer Flores
Calhoun in RF is a 2+ win improvement over Jones, LoCastro, etc…
LF is now platoon of Peralta and LoCastro. Peralta kills RHP
Starling Marte in CF is a solid 3 win player.
Before you even get into the improved infield defense or the pitching changes, that is a 4+ win improvement over 2019. Love what Hazen is doing.
Mike Hazen= Gangster.
This team is going to sneak up on people.
He’s had the best winter of any GM, for sure.
As a Pirates fan, I’m a fan of this return. Two young guys that both have talent but haven’t had the service time yet to build up their prospect stock yet. This could be a steal in the future. I like what Peguero has to offer and he’s still young! He could really develop into something special, I’m not sure of Mallone. Most likely, both of these guys improve their prospect stock. I’m happy they didn’t go for Varsho. He looks like all bat and no glove and in the NL that doesn’t work, specifically at the catching position.
They didn’t go for Varsho because he was a no go. Why do you think Varsho’s name is mentioned more any other on this forum by Pirates fans? It sounds like the only guy they know in the farm. Because he’s a power hitting, left hitting catcher with speed. He played C and CF last year and no one said he’s bad defensively. I am glad you’re optimistic but it shouldn’t help you to think “I’m glad they didn’t get Darsho.” That part makes your optimism sound unbelievable.
pirates got taken not in value, but in need.
should’ve just kept marte, feels like they traded him just to trade him.
Not that the prospects don’t have value, just too far out to make an impact in the next four years.
In a rebuild, trade for value, not need.
You can trade for need on an organizational level. The Pirates are loaded at SS throughout the system, yet have not one worthwhile catcher
Need is the key word but the other way around. Sure pirates need a good catching prospect. But the other mlb teams dont need a 31 year old outfielder bad enough to part with a good catching prospect.
SS is a position that you can never have too many of. They are usually the most athletic and versatile player on the field. They can easily move to 3B or 2B or any of the OF positions.
There is nothing stopping the Pirates from trading from that SS depth for another catcher.
Mendoza Line 215
Please stop.With this trade I have lost any faith that I had in Cherington.
First impressions are important and anyone can tear down any. Team and not get anything in return.
He got neither quantity nor quality in return for his best player.
Keep the young players that he hasbecause he will get low level prospects for them.
This makes the Pirates farm system stronger by getting a guy off their current roster that won’t help them, that’s the point of trades. Right now it may look good for the D-backs, and if Marte leads them to a WS this year or next year, it may look like a steal. But in 4 years, if one of those prospects is preforming like Lindor, than the Pirates would win the trade. That’s the point, teams shouldn’t “win” trades, it should help both sides to where both teams can reap the benefits of the trade.
Mendoza Line 215
Joe-four years is a long time.Keep Marte until the trading deadline and get a near ready ML pitcher and a young catcher.
I thought that he had experience as a GM.
This might be the first Pirates trade i agree with in a long time. Marte for two decently ranked prospects is not a bad get considering the Pirates will lose with or without Marte for the next 2-3 seasons anyway
Given that he was willing to take prospects that are so far away (and as such have debatable value), Cherrington obviously has a long term deal. Lots of guys in short-season leagues have “massive” ceilings that continue to droop as they make their way through the minors.
That said, obviously these guys rank pretty high in the Bucs estimation. And that’s what a deal like this amounts to; their valuations versus what really happens. Overall, the return seems a little light to me, considering the time line.
I bet these rookies turn out to be nothing for Pittsburgh. Salary dumping is all it is. Shame on you bob.
Pirates just got two lottery tickets. They got hosed again. Neither is currently Top 100. Why just last week these same folks were telling me that Nimmo and Mauricio (top 100) were not nearly enough. Ok. Good luck with that.
Nimmo would have off to another team before the Bucs were ready to contend again. Or too expensive. Think.
While they are not top 50 prospects both have steadily climbed the rankings and could break into the top 100 after this season if they continue as they have…the SS is getting good reviews from scouts and Melone being a 33rd pick has a bit of pedigree… Agree, their is a lot of risk taking kids that will debut in A or A+, bit they both have huge ceilings and if one or both hit on that ceiling would be excellent.
Still don’t have a chance against the Dodgers
Don’t bet on that..The Dodgers have done nothing but get a year older this offseason. Enjoy your second year of Pollock though, you’re welcome.
Chief Two Hands
Actually, it’s not that the Dodgers got a year older, it’s more accurate to say that their young talent has matured.
Dodgers have as much payroll tied up in guys over 30 than the Diamondbacks have total as of today.
Pirates love acquiring nothing for something /
We’re givers. What can we say?
There were some Pirates fans (just as there would be with any team who trades one of their best players) putting together some pretty crazy prospect packages to land Marte. Look at that. Not one of those two prospects are even top 100.
They will be
They will be, both of these guys have massive ceilings, they just haven’t had enough game time yet to build their prospect stock up yet. End of this upcoming season they’ll both be top 100.
Yes some logic here. If the pirates received a top 100 guy for marte then look out. Something is wrong with this guy. Teams don’t part with a true top 100 guy unless it is for someone special with cheap controllable years.
Wow! Dbacks are successfully closing the gap on the Dodgers this year. No other team in the NLW can say the same thing this year. Admittedly, the gap is huge and I’m Not saying the Dbacks have overtaken the Dodgers as division favorites. But I am saying they have significantly closed the gap. Hazen has done wonders with building this team. I vote for Hazen as the best GM in baseball!
Padres? They added Pomeranz, Pham, Davies, Grisham and probably still aren’t done.
Padres are 3rd at best rn
Big homers take there. Hazen still hasn’t exceeded the team he inherited that earned a playoff birth. That is still his best roster, and it wasn’t his roster.
That said, the gap should not be huge between the Dodgers and D’backs. The Dodgers haven’t improved in the off-season and have lost some key cogs. The D’backs seem to have improved, but still have major pitching questions in both the starting rotation and bullpen. This is definitely Hazen’s roster now, so we’ll see how it goes and whether he actually earns the praise you’ve given him or the weaknesses of this roster blows up on him.
Hazen inherited a 69-93 team in October 2016. His first year as GM they went 93-69.
He brought in Ketel Marte, Taijuan Walker, Chris Iannetta, Daniel Descalso, JD Martinez and several relievers and turned around the culture of that team in a single offseason.
He added exactly half the starting position players over the 2016-2017 offseason.
Going into the 2017 season the Diamondbacks had exactly zero top 100 prospects. .They didn’t have a top 10 ranked prospect at any position. Now they have 5 top 100 prospects.
Not sure what weaknesses you are claiming they have. There are no positions where the Diamondbacks will be starting a below average hitter. All have had above average OPS+ and wRC+.
The starting pitching staff sans Greinke in the 2nd half last season had a 4.35 ERA compared to 4.54 for MLB.
It was Ray, Kelley, Leake whom Hazen acquired on July 30th, Clarke, and Gallen whom the Dbacks acquired on July 30th in the 2nd half.
In 2020 it will be Bumgarner, Leake for a full season, Ray, Gallen for a full season, and Weaver for a full season. That is an improvement over what was an average to slightly above average squad. The starter that got the most innings for them last season, Kelley, moves to the pen with his team high 4.42 ERA.
The bullpen improves by adding Kelley, Rondon, and Guerra to replace Andriese, Hirano, and Holland.
If you are being honest and not just a hater, there is nothing you can say bad about what Hazen has done with an extremely limited budget.
So basically, the Pirates traded Marte and saved 11 million dollars for two 18 year olds who, realistically, will never make the majors. If they do, it probably won’t be for another 4-5 years.
Meanwhile, who now plays centerfield? Who replaces Marte’s offensive output?
It’s not like the Pirates are going to go out and SPEND that saved 11 million to better the team. I can’t believe they couldn’t get a major leaguer in return. It’s a great deal for Arizona, especially if they make the post season and receive that bonus revenue. What team wouldn’t trade two 18 year olds with two years of experience for a proven veteran who is still performing at + league numbers?
Pirates fans should be furious.
The prospects that they got have huge upside. They will be in the top 100 when they get older. Wasn’t really a bad trade.
You must have been a big fan of that Archer deal, trading away young prospects for a proven veteran.
You’re furious that that the team is adding talent to the system rather than trying for 80 wins this year. Ok, Yinzer.
Yes. We’re always furious.
But… I’m just glad they got SOMETHING for him. That they traded him at all. That’s how bad it’s gotten and how low my expectations are for them to win any deal.
They. Needed. To. Trade. Him.
Otherwise they get nothing for him while we limp to a 70 win season.
Reynolds will play center. Polanco will play right. And some other dude will play left. OF is the deepest position in baseball. They aren’t expecting a Star right now.
I am as frustrated with the organization as much as the next Pirates fan, but we needed to get something for him.
I’m glad he’ll have an opportunity to win on an AZ team that is making best efforts over there.
Salary dumping is all that it is. It’s a shame that bob will not spend money. You wonder why attendance is always down.
Will end up being a 22 million salary savings. They couldn’t not pick up the option unless he got hurt or something. They weren’t competing with him. It was either sign Donaldson wheeler ryu and grandal or rebuild. Hopefully it isn’t option 3 just a had to trade and try to piece together a team.
That’s all they got? And the haters didn’t want the Padres getting him without giving up Gore and Patino lol. Unreal.
I got a good chuckle out of people demanding Gore + for him. They maybe could have gotten one back end of the top 100 type for him depending on the cash involved but elite prospects like Gore and Patino being mentioned would surely make the Padres hang up the phone.
Just like the Mets laughed at the pathetic Padres for offering Margot and Hedges. Then your Gm is like they are demanding too much… there is a reason why the Padres never win. You know…
An LOLMets fan calling us pathetic? Lol how rich.
I know some people thought Marte was going to bring back multiple top 100 type prospects but this is basically fair value for him when you consider his salary and the surplus value he brings at that rate. Even if they’re not elite, these are high ceiling prospects that rank pretty well in a good farm system.
This is a good move for the Dbacks and I think they’re firmly in the wild card mix at this point. I’m pretty sure based on the Mookie rumors the reason SD didn’t get involved is that they’re not willing to take on more salary (hence why every Mookie Betts rumor talks about Wil Myers going back to Boston), but AZ was willing to add salary for Marte and now their OF is better for it.
wow this is an absolute steal for ARI if Malone needs the inevitable elbow surgery that all IMG grads need.
The buyers market continues!
Fanatics expecting a Kings ransom for lindor or Betts or Bryant or arenado live in a dream world
The Pirates roster is $43M right now, for 26 players. That should be illegal. MLB needs a floor of $100M for every team, no excuses.
dynamite drop in monty
I’ve spent more on aftershave.
Agreed but it’s not 43, it’s closer to 56, ridiculous still
It will be down to 43 soon. Keep in mind, we are not done trading.
Just doesn’t get on base enough. Meh
No, he’s a five tool player who I believe your team will be very happy with. I think your mind will change by mid season.
JDGoat. Thank you for making my point!
BTW are Hosmer and Myers still on your team, with their overinflated contracts?
That contradicted your point though…
DBACKS are very unlikely to win the division but they will stay up there with the Dodgers, Preller did a great job with getting young talent but oofed with Myers, Hosmer, Machado. etc.
I don’t see anything wrong with the Mets fans’ posts, or the Pirates fans’ posts, etc. when they overvalue their players. It’s funny. But the truth is I do the same about my team and we all do the same about our teams. So my posts are often funny to others, too.
So true. Few neutral realistic people here. I wouldn’t trade my teams player and his expensive and or expiring contract unless I can get your teams best highest ranked prospects. For your teams young controllable superstar I would offer Clint Frazier because every Yankee fan trade proposal must be highlited by him.
Bob spend nutting just got his money back from Huntington and hurdle.
The upside, 2 prospects who have a high ceiling, basically an admission this team will suck for at least 3 years though.
Next up, Adam Frazier and hope Chris archer doesn’t suck for the first half the season
Hope Brennan is ready to adopt the two seamer
The Ghost of Bobby Bonilla
Seems like a solid return for the Pirates. They aren’t competing for 2020, or 2021-2023 for that matter. So it’s best to get guys that are still 3+ years away from the Bigs with huge upside.
Both of these guys fit the bill. Now the Pirates need to commit to this rebuild and get the same type of return for Josh Bell and something for Archer.
Good news Pirate fans: Nutting has no choice but to bring back SkyBlast concerts to sell more than 5,000 tickets!!!
They can’t trade Archer for anything unless he finds his form. Then possibly they can get a prospect of some sort at the deadline for a team needing a rental.
I agree to trade Bell if they can but 1B is fairly deep league round. Lots of capable players so he’ll need to repeat to some degree his first half of 2019 to warrant the value they’ll want for him.
Hopefully, folks still want Frazier. But I’m
Guessing people moved on from that. We have plenty of IF depth to cover that trade.
I get fireworks, smash mouth or alien any farm and get to watch horrible baseball on top of it? Where do I sign up!
The real story here is how Hazen out maneuvered the Padres especially, but the Mets as well as the rest of the league, to get Starling Marte. He was in high demand. For a while, the Pirates new FO was getting acquainted with the organization’s talent and deciding on whether to rebuild or tweak, etc. In the meantime, fans were saying it would take a huge haul of prospects to get Marte. The Pirates FO is as smart as any other. They knew his true market trade value. Hazen picked the right time to offer, thus the Dbacks got him.
If the Mets needed him, they would have got him.
Hazen deserves credit, but I don’t know if you can say he “outmaneuvered” the Mets and SD.
Mets never seemed that interested in this, Van Wagenen was saying last week he didn’t want to make a move. SD appears to be out of money so I don’t think SD could afford to take on Marte’s salary without dumping one of their crappy contracts. I guess you could say Hazen “outmaneuvered” Preller because Preller signed Wil Myers to that stupid backloaded contract years ago but it’s not like he really beat them on this specific deal.
for some reason i cannot reply in my own comment thread.
They got taken not because of value but due to need. Both prospects are young and far out. By the time they get to AAA, If they get to AAA what will be left of this core? really nothing.
with the return they got, they might as well just get rid of their whole 25 man lol.
if its a four year plan, i doubt i’ll be around for it and i’m about as optimistic about the pirates as you’ll find.
I’m never able to reply in any thread I start either.
With the money saved sign Kevin Pillar & Russel Martin with the hopes of being able to move them at the deadline.
That’s probably a good strategy.
Russel isn’t coming back to Pittsburgh. I bet he’d retire before heading back to this mess.
I like the strategy of potential deadline move candidates, but I wouldn’t count on Pillar to be that person.
Puig would make some sense if he wants to play every day and build value for himself. Will never happen though.
Remember when Puig tried to fight the whole Pirates team by himself?
Here come the Marte brothers! Love it when brothers play in the same team
Terrible deal for Pittsburgh. Won’t yield a single thing from this for five years at least. The organization has taken the biggest laughingstock of MLB now from Baltimore. So, payroll is down under 50million. Is MLB getting involved? Nutting pockets the money saved and won’t reinvest on the product. Pirate fans lose.
No MLB won’t get involved at this point. If they where 10 games above .500 at the break and they pulled something like this and got this return.. yeah probably good reason to look at it. Nutting doesn’t pocket the money (according to ex-minority owner)
Otherwise yeah i’m with ya on the trade and being the laughing stock. in 7 years (or whatever) might be a great team.. just feels bad to waste what we got now… especially when they’re fan favorites.
It’s not a terrible deal. It was wise to trade him for something and risking injury or getting nothing for him at all. The organization has a lot problems to fix on a development level. It’s probably wise that these players are years away. We find talent, bring them up, they go elsewhere and play to maximum potential (Glasnow, Cole, Morton, Meadows). The problem won’t be bandaged up tomorrow. I wish they would have gotten a catcher, but this isn’t bad.
not getting a catcher is huge. the other problem the players they did get have a far out time line and also pretty young. who knows if they’ll fall off the map.
Oh and yeah.. we’re sending cash with it… like WTF. Marte leaves and hes still one of the highest paid players the pirates are paying! … /s.. but.. geez about true ….
Personally i would’ve held out until i got what I wanted not what they wanted to sell me which seems like the case. there was no real rush…
As a Dback fan, I’m thrilled with getting Marte. It was the Dback’s #1 priority this off-season to get a CF for about 2 years, until the uber highly regarded CF prospects arrive, in order to protect Ketel Marte’s health. However, I hate the price the Dbacks had to pay. Yes, these prospects are years away, but both prospects have huge upside potential. This has been Hazen’s MO. He’s willing to trade prospect capital to get his man. Getting Gallen for Jazz Chisholm was the first example. This is the second example. Trade valuable pieces if need be. It’s the right way to use your prospects. Dbacks didn’t trade their “untouchables”, but Hazen still got his man. Perdomo is the SS ahead of Peguero, along with Alexander. And there are plenty of highly regarded arms in the system as well.
Pirates get 2 18 year olds that will likely never pan out….LOL.
Yeah, if one becomes an all star, this works out. So hard to predict. Cherrington is buying lottery tickets which I do prefer to the NH return of near ML ready mediocrity.
yeah if one becomes an all-star in 6 years.. it works out. /smh
dynamite drop in monty
Yes. That’s the idea with prospects. A risk is accepted but the upside carries more weight than winning 72 games w Marte the next couple years. Do you even know how paper is made?
Great pick up without giving up really anything on the teams future. Keep Marte at second is fantastic in light of the back issues he faced last year. And they do not even need to change the names on the depth chart.
Feel these two are top 100 guys by end of year or next year. Trade Kela and Frazier, they have three picks in top 50 and this system can be top 5 soon.
I get it when people say someone is a top 100 prospect, but ultimately that is a worthless measure. The vast majority of rosters are composed of players that never appeared on those lists. Being considered the 88th, 43rd or 294th doesn’t make much difference in their likelihood of succeeding.
Don’t disagree but people say this return is light when they got 2 top 10 prospects from a top 5 farm and two on the brink 100 guys isn’t light. I wanted Varsho but I’m happy with the deal. Wanted Malone ober
Pittsburgh just needs to go down to AAA that franchise is garbage.
The competitive balance of the league is messed up, crazy that some teams who spend 40 million for a full roster as supposed to compete with teams closer to 200 million. Seems unfair. Would it be possible to hard cap the league so every team has a chance to contend? Like 100 million is the set salary for every team and you find ways to make it work, i.e. such as trading players that are cheaper as you approach the 100 million threshold? As much as I am a fan of the dodgers who do boast one of the highest payroll it doesnt seem fair to other teams due to our abundant wealth. Teams with less funds such as teams like the padres, rays, pirates etc. have no way to compete finically with the powerhouses of the league. You spend time developing players only to have them leave to yankees/boston/giants/dodgers. Id prefer a more competitive league.
Lol, nice post
Is this a joke or are you trolling, I can’t tell…
You know they made plenty of measures to balance that out right? You can’t force owners to spend money but you can limit how much they can spend. They already do this. The luxury tax system is both progressive and punitive. The draft is also set to benefit smaller market teams. Look at oakland, kansas city, minnesota as teams who utilize the system in place to their benefit. They will never be players each offseason for the Gerrit Cole’s and Anthony Rendon’s of the world but they do just fine without them. I actually feel sorry for the teams who spend like there’s no tomorrow but year in and year out fall short or get beat by teams with half the payroll. Cough DODGERS!
The Dodgers haven’t spent big on free agents in many years. Oddly enough, regarding the NL West, that distinction lies with the Padres and Diamondbacks most recently.
Chief Two Hands
The Dodgers got beat in two straight WS by teams with high payrolls that both cheated. The Nationals had a high payroll, as well, so I have no idea what you are talking about. It seems you don’t, either.
Every team is owned by companies. groups or individuals with billions of dollars at their disposal. Some decide to spend a certain amount in order to give their teams a better chance to win, and some decide to pocket more revenue and keep it for themselves. As for a hard cap, not only would the MLBPA, (which has way too much power and influence over MLB in general), not allow that to happen, it would not magically make owners who do not want to spend as much start throwing out more money. It isn’t a matter of fairness, it is about the MLBPA wanting to get as much money for the players as they can and certain owners placing a priority on lining their own pockets rather than winning a championship. That’s business, plain and simple. It’s not that teams like the Padres and Pirates can’t afford to spend as much on their teams, it’s that their respective owners choose not to do so.
It’s a good take on it. These owners are all crazy wealthy. They could easily spend their own $. Even easier they could just choose to make no profit or a smaller profit. But most extremely wealthy people like to get richer. Some owners just see a team as a way to make $. They may like to win but not as much has running the business.
Nothing a team can do about market size. And popularity can only be changed so much.
What a trash take from @scottaz @moneyballer @chief two hands. So OP creates a good point about the state of the league being unbalanced and you choose to post toxic takes because his team lost? How moronic are you guys? instead of diving into the real issues with competitive balance and a growing divide between smaller markets and bigger ones. You choose to shade mindless because he is a dodgers fan? This site has become a joke more than a forum to have an open dialogue about “baseball”
Chief Two Hands
I was defending the Dodgers in my post, Jmac2020. You really need to work on your reading comprehension. I was clearly responding to Moneyballer’s response to the OP in which he suggested the Dodgers repeatedly overspend and get beat by teams with half their payroll, which has not been the case at all.
Yup, but he also criticized anyone who disagrees with his logic. Moneyballer is correct. You guys use the innocuous term “balanced league” when what you mean is artificially depress high value teams while artificially improving low value teams.
Why not leave it as it is and give a +3 handicap to lower market teams? Because then you would visually see the unfairness instead of hiding it in the money under the guise of competition.
The fact is that you cannot achieve parity when business, therefore money, serves as the underpinnings to any specific entertainment. One can analogize any business, whether it’s Google, movie industry, sports, or city employment. It’s never equal because utilitarian principles work only in theory, never in life.
Answer one question: if it’s so good for the sport and therefore the players, why won’t the players or the MLBPA support it?
Either way, I respect the way you feel, and I will not insult you to achieve my point but you must admit where the argument has it’s weaknesses.
Dbacks are now 1-2 years ahead of schedule to compete for a post-season berth. Rock solid starters in all positions, with competition and opportunities for younger guys to fill bench roles. Starting 6 pitchers also rock solid, with at least 5 more starters knocking on the door. With 2 key off-season pickups at the back end of the bullpen and starters who will be used in the bullpen, that unit is very deep and strong as well. Solid, contending team. Hello Dodgers.
Cherington getting it done! Wonderful trade for the snakes! Wish my team was as bold and aggressive in the trade market.
AZ did very well for itself and it’s good to see them going for it as best they can.
To the hard salary cap people: salary cap is the definition of unfair. It’s a socialist concept that penalized teams with more fans, bigger markets, and more money.
My opinion, the current tax threshold is too harsh. It should stop at 20% and that’s being kind. Plus, there should be flexibility for the higher cost of living areas and an accounting for owner wealth.
I know, my opinion is one of many, but there it is. I sincerely respect opposing views, so this isn’t meant to trigger anyone.
It’s quite the opposite. The current system is the unfair one, penalizing teams that physically can’t keep up with the high-spending teams. Why should a team have an advantage because they play in a certain city/market? Make teams spend their money more wisely instead of just throwing it at the splashy free agent.
Here is the problem Mick. I am all in for free market. These smaller market teams have been happy because of profit sharing they are making more money than ever while the value of their franchise increases dramatically. However the new trend is for larger market teams to protect their piece of the pie. Like instead of taking all money in their t.v. deals they take chunks of stock ownership. All owners need to be happy. Can’t have a league with only a dozen teams. At least not nearly as profitable. Then once majority of fans realize only 1 small market team has won the world series in the past 28 years they will need to adjust again. Although I think a small market team will win once or twice this decade because a lot of them are run by smart baseball people right now. Then the bigger teams will take their people so after that who knows.
Does trading Marte for a couple 18 years signal that Cherington is starting a rebuild from the bottom? Because these two prospects aren’t going to be ready for something like 4 years.
Just listened to Jonathan Mayo give his take on this deal. He likes what the Pirates got. A departure from what Huntington did in that Cherington went for high upside instead of middling talent ready for the bigs now. He really likes Malone. Has seen him pitch live. Said has a chance to be a front end starter. Only a year into pro ball but easily repeats his delivery and has 4 very good pitches now. Said he was really intrigued by Peguero. Said had more power and a better hitter than first thought when he was signed out of the Dominican. Said will depend how he fills out as to how much power he ends up with and if they have to look to move off the SS position. Looks like a good baseball trade out of Cherington. Now we get to see how good his talent evaluation is.
9Could you post a link to what Mayo said? Would love to get his take as well.
This has got to be the start of more things to come ? Still a young catcher has to be coming ? Bell to Texas for Huff and more . Something more has to be coming .
Bell will be dealt at some point but much more time before the Pirates lose his control. Just hit Arb for the first time this season. I think Cherington will be more patient in trading Bell. Frazier will most likely be gone soon.
@ SalaryCapMyth—Mayo was on 93.7 the Fan in Pittsburgh about 10-15 mins ago. If you go on to Radio.com you can rewind back I believe to listen to his portion. (looking at the time now. was after 5 and somewhere areound 5:15)
Thx gozu. I imagine you are having the same problem as the rest of us and can’t post reply’s to your own thread.
Going to relax my judgement a little and see what Mayo has to say.
Where were the Ranger front office when this deal went down? Daniels are you asleep? This wasn’t a free agent signee where ownership closed the money vault. You had prospects to trade and didn’t make a move? Are you waiting on the Kris Bryant arbitration issue? You might have bolstered the pitching staff, but your bats are still lacking.
I liked the trade for the pirates. If you think they could have gotten more for marte, then the drugs your taking are good.
2 youngsters who are rated high. Time will tell.
Now all you yinzers who are moaning about this trade, and even the archer trade. Give it time.
I didnt like the archer trade when they made it. Lot of yinzers loved it at the time. The same yinzers today hate it. Bandwagon yinzers. I didnt like the trade because I thought meadows and glasnow were being held back. By hurdle and separate. Hurdle was notorious for playing veterans o e rookies. Veterans who had no business being on the team. Hurdle was to blame for the pirates difficulties.
Not thrilled the Bucs went the High school route
They did not acquire high school kids
For some reason cant reply to my original thread, but very much so being serious. For some reason when you post a topic for dicussion posters would rather be toxic then provide any real context to the state of baseball. Id like to have a balanced league in which every team has a chance to win. When you spend the most its not surprising to find yourself with a high chance to win. Like i said if all teams had a hard cap much like the nba and had to spend at least 100 million to compete it would be much better to watch. A team like padres could win because they would be given a platform or level playing field. Think its funny how dense most of these posters are to think its “trolling” to want a competitive league. Again winning a ring against a balanced league would be much more impressive than winning because you spend more.
Trolling part of your previous post were omitted here.
What parts were troll? Lol tragic take when op appears genuine. Dodgers in recent years have been top spenders and have a tv deal that exceed 2/3s the league. As someone who played college ball id much prefer to play in competitive league that one where buying chips is a thing (see the yankees)
So penalize the teams that make the most money by prohibiting them to use it? See definition for socialism. It may make it more exciting for you, individually, but then why not restrict all boxers to the exact same workouts and coaches? Why does one with more money get much better training gyms, training partners, and dieticians?
Your proposal is idealistic and utilitarian, but not realistic. And if you think there is parity in those other sports I’d beg to differ. They, unlike the Yankees, actually buy championships in the NBA.
I don’t mean this offensively, as I’m merely engaging in this debate, but you really think sports should be mandated to be equal? That may fit your narrative for competition, but it doesn’t make the sport better. It actually brings sports down when you try to level them out. That’s why players would never agree, and that’s with 90% of the league knowing they are on the losing end – that should tell you something.
And the argument of spending more wisely doesn’t fit the bill when your FA will continue to make a higher portion of the overall team budget.
I simply disagree, it’s not personal. But apparently the league agrees with me.
I agree. But owners are happy making $. Seeing the royals win was impressive though. Even the indians or rays making it. Teams that did it smart, thrifty were more exciting then a team that spent 200 million.
LovinMLB – I could not reply to your other response to me and in think your points are valid, I just disagree with others that a salary cap is the only way to fix it. I agreed with just about everything you said, unless I misread something. I appreciate the response and logical discussion.
You guys want to dump Polanco, cards could use him and have some 18 year old top 10 organizational prospects. And ones a catcher.
They would deal Polanco for 250k and ptbnl I would think.
Using my expertise…of reading what Eric and/or Kiley of Fangraphs write…this seems like a decent deal for the Pirates.
Considering how little the Pirates got back in return, I am astounded that more teams were not in on Marte.
A proven MLB starting CF for two 19 year olds neither of whom have played above short season ball. Two hopes and prayers in 3-4 years for 3 WAR today and next season too.
The Pirates did ok in this trade, but it will not sit well with their fans because neither of these kids will see the majors until 2024 if they make it. .
I’m sorry but I’m he MLB needs a salary minimum as well as a salary cap. If an owner can’t pay a certain figure they need to give up their team.
That’s fine, I would be open to considering a minimum, but a cap doesn’t work. FA make more of the overall salary every year. Look how bad a soft cap has made certain offseasons… it’s simply not the solution, but it doesn’t matter because even the losing players will never go for it because of the salary limit implications.
If a team can’t keep up because of another team’s market, or they can “keep up with spending” as one author wrote, then too bad, deal with it. That’s called real life.
It will never work, in my opinion, but I respect your opinion to differ.
If revenue were equal, then MLB could have a salary floor and cap. As it is the top teams have $600 million plus in revenue and the bottom teams have closer to $220 million.
Bridge that gap so that teams like the Rays, A’s, Marlins, Royals, Orioles, Diamondbacks, Pirates and Padres have a minimum of $300 million in revenue while the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox have under $450 million in revenue and putting in a $150 million floor and $250 million cap would work.
This definitely makes them a strong contender for the wildcard
Is it just me or is anyone else annoyed by writers who refer to the Diamond Backs as the “Snakes” and the Pirates as the “Buccos”?
Two good lower level prospects that project well and a salary dump. At least the Pirates have no illusion about rebuilding. I don’t hate this trade at all.
I did not see this happening
Listen guys. I know you’re upset with me right now. But these fireworks and bobble head nights aren’t going to pay for themselves. It’s not easy carrying a payroll of 43 million. Give me a couple days and I’ll see if I can dump some more salary to come up with a cheesy reboot of the “We Will” campaign and sign an impact player like Derek Bell. Our scouts have heard Operation Shutdown has finally ended. Crossing our fingers! Read about it in my newspapers!
I’m happy, Mets do not need marte
Amazin Mets 1969
Again Mets can’t make a minor splash. I like S.Marte. power and some speed the Mets lack
How is it Pit asked the Mets for Nimmo amd Mauricio (their #1 prospect # 60 in all of MLB) but accept 2 prospect in short season ball at least 3yrs away from the Bigs?
I would have parted with David Peterson ( lefty starter ready for MLB at midseason and teams # 6 prospect) and Ali Sanchez..catching prospect MLB ready by September callup time..maybe sooner. Im confused at the package they ended up taking
Pit never asked the Mets for Nimmo, only speculating fans on these boards suggested that. Pit never wanted Nimmo. Pit wanted low minors level, high upside, risky youngsters, not low ceiling near ready players like you suggested. The Dback’s prospects are so much better than the Mets’ prospects, it was no contest.
The Mets equivalent of the Dbacks package would’ve been Alvarez and Allan, which is I’m pretty sure what Pit was asking for. Don’t forget that the Dbacks’ system is much better than the Mets’.