March 5: Sale has been diagnosed with a flexor strain, Roenicke tells reporters (Twitter link via Mastrodonato). He’ll be shut down from throwing until next week and even then will be limited to simply playing catch. The next steps will depend on how he responds to that activity. Roenicke notes that Sale’s “UCL looks the same as the last image.”
March 4, 4:35pm: At this point, there’s no expectation that Sale will require Tommy John surgery, Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic tweets.
9:05am: We learned yesterday that star Red Sox lefty Chris Sale had undergone an MRI after he experienced elbow soreness, with Dr. James Andrews set to review the results. That has now occurred, but a diagnosis and course of treatment remain unknown.
Boston manager Ron Roenicke tells reporters, including Jason Mastrodonato of the Boston Herald (Twitter link) and Peter Abraham of the Boston Globe (Twitter link), that the club has sought another opinion. Another premier specialist, Dr. Neal ElAttrache, will review the imaging and weigh in with his opinion.
Presumably, the hope is to land upon a consensus after receiving the viewpoints of Andrews, ElAttrache, and the Sox’ own team medical staff. All involved are taking their time, says Roenicke, because there’s a “need to get this right.”
Sale will ultimately decide upon what course of treatment he deems best. But there’s a shared interest in arriving upon the best long-term approach to his as-yet-unclear elbow ailment. The Red Sox owe Sale $145MM over the next five seasons.
Roenicke says that fans and media shouldn’t read into the ongoing uncertainty. Sale isn’t necessarily staring down Tommy John surgery, it seems. Indeed, it’s not really even clear whether that is a possibility on the table at the moment.
What is known to this point: Sale was shut down and received platelet-rich plasma treatment in August after visiting Andrews. The southpaw said he had been cleared of ligament damage. He was cleared to throw over the winter; indications were that he’d be a full participant in Spring Training. Sale was delayed at the outset of camp, with the explanation given that he was dealing with a case of pneumonia, but began throwing recently without evident issue. But his elbow began barking after facing live hitters recently, prompting this new round of medical analysis.
I opined for the Padres to trade for Sale and Stanton, got reemed for it by know it all east coast armchair GMs. THANK GOD
Same.
So you’re referring to people who were 100% correct as “arm chair GMs” while also pointing out you are glad the outcome you opined for didn’t happen? How humble.
The opposite. Hes saying the East Coast Arm Chair Athletes were wrong in saying Sale and Stanton should stay put and also saying he was wrong in suggesting it in the first place. So yes, there was the rare sense of humbleness exhibited on MLBTR.
There’s no indication that’s what he meant. Why bother commenting?
Sometimes people just suck. If it offended anyone….figure it out
That makes no sense.
what he wont tell you is the actual trade packages he suggested bc if he does so he’d get laughed at again
Things going from bad to worse in Beantown.
And MLB’s report hasn’t even been released yet.
Well they’d been very poorly run for quite some time (under Dombrowski) so this kind of thing is not a surprise. Price and Sale would look great on paper—back in their primes—and yet their large contracts were virtually (pardon the pun) guaranteed to fail at some point.
What’s the pun
“Guaranteed” contracts typically refers to money; also used here to suggest “guaranteed” to fail.
That’s not a pun.
The Sale trade was good 2017 thru 2019, but he never should have been resigned. Mike Lowell great in 2006 and 2007 was resigned and hurt ’08 -2010. Steve Pearce the same, resigned and hurt.. They got it right letting Pedro, Lowe, Damon walk. GM’s need to know when to let some popular players walk or they will pay the price.
He said pay the Price.
That 2018 ring kinda contradicts this whole post
How? The extensions were after the World Series
“Been run poorly for quite some time” MoneyRussull….I think hes covering more than 12 months with this statement
JD – no contradiction, RS should not have resigned Sale or Lowell after the contract expiration! Most MLB teams make this mistake (fans whine about resigning a fan favorite, so teams do it). Tampa has never had the money to augment with big free agents, so no WS, but they let guys go like Longoria. It was a good move, because he is nowhere near as good in SF as he was in TB. The majority of players are not as good after around 32. There are exceptions like getting Schilling who won 21 games in 2004 and helped win a WS. Sale was hurt in 2018, and the RS could have extended mid 2019 or even after the season to wait and see if the injury lingered. DD’s mismanagement of money will delay the next contending RS team, but roster turnover is inevitable and positive for the next WS run 2004, 2007, 2013, 2018. Look at how few players were on more than one of these teams.
The Red Sox have won 4 world series in the 2000’s
Enough already with poorly run
They are a big market team, all big market teams will make bad signings….. (My Dodgers Pollock Kelley Kenley etc etc )
Yes I wouldnt have extended Sale, but perhaps Im shaping my mind to be a mid market team who cant make mistakes/gambles….. this is the Red Sox, they have different angles than us (perfect posters)
No the Red Sox are not run poorly, that statement is absurd…….. 4 freakin Rings in 20 years My God what more do you people want?
It sounds more like you value letting a Longo contract Go more than being World Champs
Even if the team has enough money to spend, it doesn’t mean they win the WS. **AHEM, red Sox…**
GO RAYS!!!
How often do teams win championships? DD did what was asked of him. Ownership approved the recent contracts deciding to worry about the future down the road and the team is paying for it. The team also paid big money under the last GM/president so the common thread is the approval of ownership. Most believed signing Sale as they did was a mistake but since he’s signed for five years, let’s play see what happens. Price proved his worth in 18 so maybe Sale will to in say 22.
DD got the job done. He took a team with consecutive seasons of 71 and 78 wins and gave them three good looks at a title between 2016 and 2018. Some of those bad contracts were inherited too.
DD is a winner. Teams should look to hire him in the future if they want to chase a ring.
My thoughts exactly. There is no GM I’d rather have when your team is in go for it mode. He is not a rebuilder, so when you’re on the other side of going for it you do have to move on and have somebody else take the wheel, like the Sox just did with Bloom. But Dave will get you to the top of the mountain or go for broke trying.
Sox owners brought this in on themselves. So the guys fastball lost a lot of velocity, no worries let’s give him a bunch of money.
Don’t blame them for Mookie though. They offered him a fair market value extension and refused. Fans might not like it but it will end up looking like a great move. I just don’t see him aging well. Start the hashtag
Betts = McCutchen 2.0
The Red Sox management has done a great job bringing 4 World Series to Boston since 2004. There are 21/30 franchises that have never won 4 WS in their entire existence. My point is that management needs to understand that there is a time to let players walk and not resign them or trade them while they still have value.
No one should berate ownership or say they are cheap. They are NOT cheap. They spent the most the last two years. Anyone who says they are cheap is a moron.
They are cheap
Noboby said they are cheap Sox,
The argument is poorly run
I’ve been saying for years that his motion would lead to this. A lot of people have been saying this. For five years I was wrong, but it looks like it finally got him.
Hard to believe the Red Sox the extended him without doing their due diligence. But you have to take chances to win.
So you caught what all the medical staffs missed?
Not all medical staffs. There were a number of teams that passed on him because of his motion (notably, by Cleveland Indians who chose Drew Pomeranz ahead of him I that draft). He went 13th in a draft he probably should have gone 2nd or 3rd. A lot was written about how his “inverted W” motion would likely lead to him either getting hurt or having to go to the bullpen.
bleacherreport.com/articles/1654571-will-chris-sal…
So Cleveland was smart to take Pomerania over sale? That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Not to mention pomeranz has elbow problems too.
I have seen this argument since the day he was brought up for the white sox. Sure maybe it NOW validates that argument 10 years later but its an old, tired argument.
Mets intentionally selected Harvey over Sale due to concerns. Ironically Harvey went down first, and hard.
I’m an Indians fan and I would have much preferred Sale. I’m just noting that yes, his motion was in fact a cause of concern for many years. ABGB was insinuating that concerns about Sale’s mechanics were somehow missed by everyone but the poster (implying he was making it up). But those concerns were out there and well documented.
The Indians passing on Sale is one of their worst draft mistakes.
old yes, but not tired. the argument is entirely valid and this proves it, just took a while for it to happen.
@col_chestbridge ah gotcha. I understand.
But you got Bieber and given his youth, years of control and effectiveness, he may be the #1 starting pitcher I would select if starting a team. Maybe.
Very interesting. If you compare both their builds, I’d have thought Sale would have broken down first. Like you said, very ironic .
Old yes, and yes tired. Chris Sale has pitched 10 seasons of mostly elite baseball, all while “experts” have been predicting he’ll break down every single year. Pick any young pitcher or pitching prospect in baseball, and odds are they’ll break down eventually. Knowing what we know now, every team in baseball would happily go back in time and draft him. Arm trouble 10 years later at 30 years old proves absolutely nothing.
For five years I was wrong, but it looks like it finally got him.
————————————————————-
Won’t you eventually be right about most pitchers? I can pick a lot of random pitchers, and predict they will eventually get hurt. I assume I will be right close to 100% of the time.
Joe, it was more of admission that I was wrong. How many Justin Verlander’s are there?
For five years I was dead wrong. I would think that phrase alone would have meant that I was wrong.
But people read what they want. It certainly wasn’t to pat my own back.
Halo11Fan: Sale has been in the league for 9 or 10 years, and questions about his arm motion go back at least as far as the White Sox decision to draft him in the first place. Your prediction five years ago was a bit late to the game, as a number of other people in this conversation have pointed it.Beyond that, there remains the question of just what “this,” as you call it, is. At least for the moment “this” remains elbow pain. Why not wait for a definitive diagnosis before telling us that 5 years ago you thought “it” was bound to happen?
Even if he does get Tommy John surgery which is unknown at this time, he’s been far more successful than the typical pitcher and has lasted longer than most pitchers before running into real injuries so it’s not really fair to say it was his mechanics that did him in. If you really want to play that game you can pick just about any pitcher coming out of the draft and say he will eventually get hurt; if he’s good enough to last in the majors into his 30s he will probably have missed significant time at some point with injuries
He’s been great.
If he’d gotten TJ surgery when this first started cropping up, he’d be just about ready to come back now.
This was part of the reason why the White Sox told Sale to dial back the velocity and made him pitch more to contact to help preserve his arm. It was one of his “least effective” years in terms of his standards but was still lights out. He didn’t like the change amongst other issues as in the direction of where the team was headed. Once he got the Boston they scrapped the preservation plan and told him to go back to his original approach which they are now paying for a couple years later. Glad they got to win the WS with him, but it sounds like end of 2018 was the start of a chronic arm issues. I wish him best of luck.
I was citing Sale’s final year with the White Sox for clarification
Saw this before his socks changed colors
Surprised he lasted as long as he did.
Say hello to TJ.
Could be bad. Maybe things will work out.
Same things been said about him as Severino. Oh doctors and team doesn’t think he will need Tommy John. 2018 he lost a ton of speed on his fastball. Gee no need to wonder why this happened. No big deal. Let’s give this guy a huge extension. Ownership makes the final call, so can’t blame DD, of course ownership and fans will blame him and that’s part of the job. I don’t know who wanted that extension but man was it stupid.
This much cogitation probably means there’s significant damage but some likely think it could be treated with plasma injections like Tanaka ….TJ surgery is coming.
tanaka never had TJS, so not the best example.
tanaka will blow his arm sooner or later, he’s had bone chips removed from his elbow the past few seasons.
Not all medical staffs. There were a number of teams that passed on him because of his motion
———————————————————
And they were all wrong, right?
1-He’s been the #3 pitcher in BB over the past 8 years.
2-After he produced for Chicago, they still managed to flip him for two top prospects.
If you picked Harper or Machado, you did ‘okay’, at best. Fir the other 10 teams that passed on Sale, it was an franchise-altering mistake.
No mistake at all. You go with the odds. When 5 different pitchers all are ranked about the same you pass on the one that has a more of a injury risk throwing motion. Pirates took the best pitcher in the draft according to the majority of scouts. They couldn’t predict he would need 2 Tommy John’s and get cancer. I think a few players got drafted before Tom Brady and Jeff George was the best QB scouts ever seen. You just never know.
He never said Tanaka had tommy john, not the best attempt at a witty comment.
Hozie- Cogitation! I thank you for inspiring me to visit Merriam- Webster haha. Good word
you dont seek out 3 opinions if the first two were great news. he is probably just making sure the TJ diagnosis is unanimous.. im not hoping that is the case, but thats my gut feeling.
This is correct. The fact that multiple opinions are sought is never good news.
Elattrache is pretty aggressive about recommending TJS. I’d listen to Andrews.
Yikes. We all know where this is going.
# severino 2.0
He won’t need Tommy John. Next day he needs Tommy John.
there is no hashtag function on this site
Moncada, Kopech, Basabe, trade is looking better everyday.
Win a World Series and then talk. Better yet, make the playoffs.
Cause cheating to win one is so much better lmao.
they didn’t prove anything so shut up.
Boston would be less burdened had they not won the World Series. The trade for Sale isn’t doing them any favors now.
I’m a die hard White Sox fan but the other Sox won a World Series cause of Sale.
And to be fair David price
World series championship. Red sox win. Young talent for rebuilding white sox win. That trade was a win win. Sox fd up by resigning sale
It was always a good trade, for both teams.
The White Sox were trying to trade Sale after his full season as starter in 2012. Sale was never considered to become a starter but injuries gave him a chance to get in the rotation. Sale started off great that season then started to die down in August.
The White Sox were fighting for first place against the Tigers that last month. I believed the White Sox were up a few games on the Tigers in the last few weeks. Sale was rocked by every team in the final month since his velocity was down and he could not throw his slider.
During the off-season the White Sox tried trading Sale to the Orioles. The Orioles made an offer to send Dylan Bundy to the White Sox but asked for Manny Machado as well. Of course the Orioles rejected that deal where Bundy had Tommy John to Sale spending time on the DL in 2013 and Machado had a solid career where he landed a big deal.
The White Sox fleeced the Red Sox in that Sale deal. Sale pitched well early in the season like he always did and just had a dead arm like always by the end of July. Anyone who thinks Sale was a big part of the Red Sox’s 2018 World Series is entitled to his or her opinion but needs to understand Sale did nothing in the last two months of 2018 and in the playoffs.
I do not recall the White Sox trying to move Sale in 2012. Source?
How many WS rings does that group have to date? They have a talented group and I would like to have Michael Kopech (TJS 1X removed). He’s a fine prospect. as is Moncada.
Tjs
Cal quantril confirmed to Sox
Sure we’ll just trade for a terrible contract to get a b- level prospect since our own scouting is incapable of drafting and developing its own starters.
Under the previous regime, he did what he does best
You have no farm
And cal isn’t a b rated prospect
Not only is he a second generation mlb player but he has legit skills. He flashes them in his rookie year
I refer to those people as casual fans. He probably follows a team, and wants to voice his opinion, but doesn’t know enough about the game to make an informed opinion.
He could have gotten TJ last August. Platelet has never worked (Tanaka sucks so he doesn’t count, and Bartolo Colon took other “vitamins” so that doesn’t count either).
Right ! Hunter Greene cost himself 6 months with those shenanigans too! Takes 18 months to get back on field. Just have the surgery and get on with life
Yeah I’ve never seen PRP work out unless it was with guys who were also strongly rumored to be perusing stem cell or HGH on top of it. Same with microfracture surgery on knees (I saw a study that had that at a 66% fail rate, which I think is why you don’t see it anymore).
Tanaka sucks? What?
Yes. $155,000,000 and a 4th Starter? His numbers are slightly worse if you toss out the 1 or 2 starts every season that he shuts out the Mariners, Indians, Angels, or whatever trash team that can’t hit a slider. He sucks.
tanaka hasn’t lived up to the hype but he doesn’t suck
If you seriously think Tanaka sucks than the only time you ever watched him pitch was probably during the London series, he had his second-worst season so far in 2019 and was still an All-Star lol.
What’s the proper treatment for barking elbow? Toss it a bone? Woof.
The news is there’s no news. As you were.
the news is found reading between the lines. he’s likely been recommended for TJS and they’re getting more opinions to make sure before moving forward.
It seems you are new here. Whyhayzee is a long-standing, well-respected poster here. His posting resume includes: 1. Commenting “suspicious” on nearly every Yankees article published; and 2. Commenting “not news” on updates of articles that many people are clearly interested in reading about. As you can see, he’s scorching a path to the best commenter HOF.
And yet, suspiciously, this article has no news.
“Calling Doctor Bombay…..Calling Doctor Bombay”!!!!!
(If you recognize the reference, you likely remember Curt Flood as a player).
Win at all costs is costing a lot!
He wouldn’t be getting so many opinions if tommy John wasn’t recommended
Probably just the opposite. If TJS was a slam dunk, they’d be doing it today. My pure, pure guess is that it is unrelated to his previous pain, or there is an issue that needs something other than TJS. But they don’t know the best course of action.
While most likely TJ.. I don’t get many of the comments. It won’t end his career, he has had a great career so far, won a world series.. He’ll be fine in the end. If the Red Sox were competing this year they would have kept Price and Betts.
no they wouldn’t have. betts was traded to get something for him as opposed to losing him in free agency and getting nothing in return. As far as Price goes he can never stay healthy so not much loss there.
Dr. James Andrews is the best in the business. For them to be seeking a third opinion means the team doctor said Tommy John and Dr. James Andrews said Tommy John and Boston is currently in the state of denial.
Well their front office is delusional starting with Henry and Werner.
I can allow for some delusion, so long as they are also the smartest owners in baseball. It’s just a trade-off I need to make.
There was speculation in the local Chicago press for years regarding when (not if) Sale would need TJ surgery.
that was/is a shared, nation-wide opinion based on his mechanics.
Nobody asks for a second opinion on good news.
Exactly. Don’t understand why they seem to be so secretive.
Exactly
Same
Dr. James Andrews can only mean one thing, Tommy John surgery.
Best thing the Sox can do is tear it all down and build around Devers, Verdugo, and Bogaerts.
Trade off everything else for huge upside, young guys that will emerge around 2022-2024.
The farm is such a mess, that if they don’t get a jumpstart on the rebuild, we’ll be talking about how Baltimore is better than them in two years.
Should’ve never extended him. Love Chris Sale but knew he couldn’t keep throwing like he has without some sort of breakdown.
Keep in mind that Dr. Andrews was the person who recommended the PRP injections back in August and declared his UCL was intact so unless Sale tore something while he was pitching over the weekend, I’d be surprised if TJS is the recommended path forward. He could be recommending another injection (which would mean putting Sale on the shelf for another 8-12 weeks) and the Sox want to see if PT could be an alternate option to get him back sooner. Trying to stay optimistic here!
I would think PT would be at least 6 weeks. But I like the optimism.
The fact they are going for now a third opinion and Dr. James Andrews is the best in the business tells you Andrews and the team Dr. Bob said Tommy John surgery. It seems like Boston does not want to realize what the true reality is that he needs Tommy John and if he does not get it he will have to get it sooner or later.
I think your figure is being generous, I think Cell will be out until June, possibly the All-Star break… contrary to what the fanboys say, this is clearly a bridge year maybe even two
Sorry about the grammar I’m voice texting in the car
Passenger seat of coarse
Funny.
An unlikely scenario:
DOCTOR: “Well, sir, your diagnosis is that you’re probably the healthiest man alive and barring an errant bus or lightening bolt, you should live to at least an active 90”.
PATIENT: “That’s disappointing news – I need to seek a second opinion”
We’ll see Sale again in 2022.
ElAttrache is the west coast guy who has done a lot of the Angels pitchers. Interestingly, my nephew pitches in the Angels system and yet went to Andrews because he is from Georgia. A lot of younger pitchers like my nephew (drafted out of high school) opt for it right away as they are young. Older pitchers might be hesitant and seek more opinions. It sure sounds like TJ for Sale but maybe it’s a different injury? The number of pitchers who have this surgery is staggering.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gQujXQQGOVNaiuwSN6…
Sounds like Tommy John Surgery and Hey Bloom that ain’t good because you failed to pick up any pitching!!! Hey Bloom I’m not a GM and I know he is iffy at this point! But you and Henry wanted to dump off salary and now you are really in trouble. Great start to your tenure in Boston. What are your plans for 2021 because this year is shot ?
Let’s not start blaming Bloom yet. He was following the owners instructions this year and was also thrown the Cora curveball too after he signed on as top dog. It’s going to take a full year + for Bloom to start reshaping this team so I am giving him a pass for 2020. It will be interesting to see what he does at the trade deadline as all signs point to Boston being sellers in July right now.
If the edict from team ownership was to drop payroll….exactly what pitching…other than mediocre or unproven AAA did you expect your new GM Bloom to “pickup”?
Nothing read has lead to any opinion that Bloom was on the drop salary bus, as he’s the GM and reports to team ownership, not the other way around.
This is pretty typical Red Sox isn’t it…..win it all, come in 5th….win it all come in 5th….challenge and get a Wild Card…..what’s changed?
Tommy can you hear me?
Can you feel me near you?
Tommy can you see me?
Can I help to cheer you?
If Sale ends up being lost for the season then the Sox most important pitcher in 2019 becomes Brandon Workman. With no Sale, the season is lost and the Sox will be sellers at the deadline. Workman stands out as the one asset who could bring true talent back to the team provided that he repeats his dominance from last season. Andrew Miller netted the Red Sox Eduardo Rodriguez from Baltimore in a July trade and a productive Workman should be able to bring back similar talent to Boston this year (cutting down on walks would be even better). The only other asset they could trade for significant talent would be JD Martinez, but that will most likely require an injury to an AL playoff contender’s DH. So it seems like Workman is their one true asset who could bring back major league-ready starting pitching at the deadline. Fingers crossed!
Don’t disagree but Brandon Workman is no Andrew Miller….don’t get your hopes up with respect to a high end “haul” in a trade.
If he repeats what he did last season through July then Workman will be a Top 3 BP target by all playoff hopefuls. While I agree he is not Andrew Miller, he was a beast last year. 1.88 ERA, 104 Ks in 71 IPs and he allowed less than 30 hits over 71 innings. If he comes close to repeating that this year, he will bring back significant talent, as he is controllable after this season too.
One correction: he will be a free agent in 2021. He was as dominate as any relief pitcher in 2019, Hader included!
Andrew Miller was no Andrew Miller until the Red Sox got him. They helped him to become Andrew Miller. Workman last year was very nearly unhittable, that’s a fact. So getting him to turn the corner on his walks is not far fetched.
Workman was unhittable in general.
Well, they turned Miller into a reliever… had he always been that who knows what type of career he would have had.
Doesn’t JDM have a full no trade clause?
rutroh
Feels like they’re just delaying the inevitable
With Andrews being so respected, the only way they’re seeking another is because they didn’t like what they heard
OTOH, if Andrews thought he definitely needed TJS, they likely wouldn’t be asking for another opinion. So for sure, nothing is definitive.
Generally speaking seeking 2nd and especially 3rd opinions means you don’t like the other opinions. TJS may not be a certainty just yet but it’s probably very likely. In any case surgery or not Sale looks like he is going to miss significant time to start the season.
I’m not sure about that. My doctor wasn’t inclined to operate on my elbow. But it still hurts, so I am thinking about seeing a 2nd doctor to either confirm what my first doctor said, or to confirm what my elbow is telling me.
It’s entirely possible for almost anything. But maybe Sale is telling him that it still hurts, and Andrews is telling him he cannot find anything wrong.
Or maybe Andrews thinks he will not do any structural damage by letting loose, and Sale just wants confirmation.
I think you are grasping at straws. Dr. Andrews is not your average everyday doctor or surgeon. He’s literally the expert on TJS and ligament elbow injuries.. Keep in mind this isn’t the first time he’s seeing Sale. Just my opinion but if the news were positive about Sale I think we would have already heard something.
Dude is kind of a living legend. My doctor friend, after a very competitive process, got an internship with him in Alabama for about a year. The sheer number of pro and Olympic athletes (as well as NFL cheerleaders) on his client roster is nuts.
People have said for years (Basically Sale’s whole career) that because he’s so lean with his big frame and the pitching style he possesses that he’d be at risk for arm issues. Looks like that might be catching up. Hopefully that’s not the case with regards to major reconstructive surgery.
What bumbling idiots these Red Sox are.don’t understand why they were so pumped up to trade price when they should have traded Sale. I even knew he had a bad arm. Oh well I guess they’re getting punished for cheating. Bad karma
If “even [you] knew he had a bad arm,” then what could you possibly expect the Red Sox could have received in a trade for Sale??
2018 champs baby
What bumbling idiots these Red Sox are. I don’t understand why they were so pumped up on trading price when they should have traded Sale. I even knew he had a bad arm. Oh well I guess they’re getting punished for cheating. Bad karma
Do you really think that the trading team isn’t going to give Sale a physical and review his medical records?
Who really cares about Sales injury. He was a major factor in bringing a championship to beantown. They resigned him to an extension which he deserved. There are risks with every pitcher that signs a contract
As a baseball fan, I do care about having good players to watch.
Who cares? Sox players. Sox brass. Sox fans. Chris Sale. Chris Sale fans. Baseball fans … and so on. Sox have 145 million reasons to care.
dog-gone-it his elbow is barking ruff ruff. hope they didn’t sign a dog. LOL
This story is in accurate. Buster was on Michael K earlier and stated that his sources are telling him Boston is just waiting for confirmation on what they have already feared that the best course of action is probably Tommy John surgery.
Well they got confirmation that he does NOT need surgery at this time. His UCL is fully intact so they are not going to do TJS on someone with a stable UCL.
TJS
Karma for the cheaters
He just throws weird. Messes with your arm.
I will sell him mine. I don’t use it.
This just in. Nothing.
Seems pretty legit that Sale does not need surgery at this time. Hopefully they can do something to get him through most of the season that allows him to contribute. If he ends up needing TJS, it would be much better if he can make it through most of the season on the mound then get surgery in August or September which would allow him to only miss one full season (2021). The Red Sox’ 2020 season still has a pulse…let’s go!!!
If he ends up needing TJS, he should absolutely get it ASAP as this is a bridge year for the RS. Fingers crossed that he doesn’t. There’s no point in having a diminished Sale trudge through a year where the RS aren’t expected to win much.
Forearm soreness, an mri, plasma, im sure it’s nothing.
Rest, stretching, weights, poor performance, delayed TJ surgery, he will be back by October 2022
This sounds like a carbon copy of what Miles Mikolas of the Cardinals is going through now. He also had the plasma injections at the end of last season and has not had another one. Expected return – not until early April.
Also Angels with Canning
Assuming premier specialist, Dr. Neal ElAttrache does not recommend TJ surgery then the answer is right in front of Boston.
Use Sale for 3 innings every 3 days and extend that to other players on the pitching staff as well.
You can get angry about paying someone $145M but that’s a sunk cost and I say there is no need to cry over spilt milk here. What’s done is done.
But let this be a lesson to us.
What this does is open the door to playing and paying players far less both in innings and in dollars.
And the same can be said of hitters as well.
The solution is right in front of us.
Expand the rosters to a much higher number than 26.
Why do the fans have to suffer just because there is this arbitrary limit on how many players a team can use?
Why do we have to limit minor league players to being minor?
The solution is to have unlimited ability to draw upon your minor league teams and send them back and forth in an unlimited way without penalty or limits.
We are blowing these guys arms out, paying foolish huge salaries to players and penalizing young hungry inexpensive talent that is ready and able to play.
Does anyone ever wonder why we do things this way?
Why we can’t change it to a better more flexible and logical way?
More players = diluted quality. We see it with expansion teams.
Yes, that’s obvious that we’d get diluted quality.
Because you’re using minor league players.
But that would be across the board affecting all teams.
And across a whole season.
It’s like comparing a sprinter to a marathon runner.
The objective is to win more games than your opponent.
Tampa did something like that last year and won more games than Boston.
And consider this.
You’d have your quality players stronger and better able to sprint to the finish during the playoffs.
The other idea is to play far fewer games and I don’t think that’s going to fly.
I get what you’re saying. A lot of this can be shot down just for practical reasons. But, I’ve thought for a while now that the 40 man should be more flexible and accessible. Though I agree the point should be keeping as much talent available to any team roster should be the goal; the premier players won’t go for dampened pay, the most shuttled players will want options so they have the chance to change rosters, and the owners will be up in arms over the cost of payroll from expanded rosters. It’s too many moving parts for any sweeping changes like those suggested.
Yes, there likely will be changes to the way we do business but to close one’s mind to the changes required because of too many moving parts is not the solution either.
It’s obvious that injuries are high.
That payrolls are high.
Some players are prima donas.
The ticket prices are high.
Many teams stands are partially filled.
And now we’re adding a complexity like Sale’s flexor strain to the mix.
Yet Tampa had more wins than Boston in 2019 with a fraction of the payroll and a scaled down pitching approach.
What does that tell you about where the game is headed?
Changes are inevitable.
Here’s my question. How did the pitchers back in the 20’s & 30’s consistently throw 250 – 300 innings per year and 15-20+ complete games per season? My guess is that the extra fitness and strengthening exercises that pitchers are doing today is causing extra stress on the shoulder and elbow, not allowing it to heal enough in between starts. Lifting weights actually tears muscles and the body needs time to heal; these players are not getting nearly enough healing time. Couple that with pitchers going out and trying to max out their velocity with every pitch and the body is bound to break down. Power pitching is overrated. The game needs more Greg Maddux type of pitchers. Guys who throw fastballs in the high 80’s but have pinpoint control and excellent secondary pitches. The art of pitching has taken a back seat to max velocity and it’s destroying careers.
It’s a completely different game than it use to be. Whitey Ford is in the HOF, with a 5.6/3.1 K/W.
Drysdale in the HOF with a 6.5/2.2 K/W. Bunning 6.8/2.4. Lemon 4.0/4.0.
Those numbers wouldn’t even get you drafted today.
You missed that Ford and Drysdale won 200+ games, 3k+ IP, sub-3 career ERAs, 150+ CGs each. Only looked at those 2 but both achieved success that today’s best pitchers only hope to reach. I know it is vogue to say wins don’t matter but when you pitch more of the game, you have more control of W-L which real starting pitchers do. Also plenty of live arms with bad K/BB ratios get drafted today. Remember Randy Johnson’s early career? Celebrating AJ Burnett’s no hitter w something like 9 walks?
The problem with pitching deeper into the game is that you become less effective. In 1960, dividing the game into thirds, the 1-3,4-6,7-9 OPS were .700/.726/.720. The same numbers in 2019 were .779/.781/.738.
It is that last number, the .738, that stands out. That’s the effect of having a BP throwing 95+ coming in to relieve a starter that’s tiring. Your best SPs will likely be better than your #3 RP. But most #3 RPs will be better in the first inning than most starters will be in their 7th inning, and/or their third time through the lineup.
See how consistent the numbers were in 1960? That is bc starters knew how and trained to pitch deeper in games. I’m not against relief pitchers but don’t like regularly seeing them before the 8th or 9th inning.
They weren’t wearing arm guards in 1960. Umpires weren’t automatically warning teams after a hit batter. And I believe the mound was a couple inches higher than where’s it at today. Bring all that back and maybe we will see pitchers go deeper in games without injury.
I’m ok with that but honestly pitching has dropped off dramatically since the 80s, 90s even. 1960 was just mentioned but don’t have to dial it back that far even.
Yep. And the 90’s is when arm guards became prominent for hitters. It has become a huge disadvantage to pitchers and the injuries to pitchers have exploded.
It would be interesting to see how many pitchers blew out there arms years ago and were just simply replaced without any fanfare.
We only hear about the ones that lasted with the rubber arms.
We had a depression going on in the 30’s and players in the 20’s and 30’s were expected to work whether they wanted to or not because they needed the money and the 6 day work week was normal.
But who knows?
I still say he ends up with tjs
Although Sale’s mph has dipped in recent years (a little), the big problem last season was the bite on his slider (or lack thereof some games). If his elbow is giving him trouble and doesn’t allow him to throw the slider the way he did before 2019 then it is a concern. Sale hides the ball well. Has a good change to go with the heater. He needs the slider to work to be effective.
Maybe so but many pitchers have had to adapt with what they’ve now got and Sale can as well.
We’re talking a sunk cost here and trying to get out of him what we can.
They could do the TJ surgery now but why would they if he didn’t need it and would TJ surgery now help his flexor strain pain after recovery?
What if TJ surgery it didn’t help and he still was in pain?
SG – I agree with everything you said here. This was an observation on my part. Truth is, I don’t know what to believe when it comes to injury anymore. We see things like this and in the near-future the pitcher winds up having TJ surgery. I also hear some brutal stories from guys working in organizations, so I’m with you on the strategy.
My guess is, Boston thinks they can win this year and want to squeeze what they can and then shelve him next year when they need to quietly reload. I wouldn’t take that approach if I were Boston.
I just don’t see what the alternative would be. the Red Sox have to Chris Sale in a way that he’s able to perform. they already have to pay him that money one way or the other and they obviously want to get the most out of him. as that’s in his interest as well. so what else can they do?
FLEXOR STRAIN
Now is the time to limit Sale’s innings per game.
Perhaps have him wear a tennis elbow type brace.
To protect his flexor and reduce has pain.
But this gets back to my previous observations mentioned above that baseball needs to adapt from these big contract putting all of your eggs in one basket type of approach.
It currently has and do more with the Tampa approach of spending less and drawing on you farm system more and staying away from long term big buck contracts.
The risk is just too high and it should be obvious to baseball fans the current way we’re doing business can be done better.
Boston had the highest payroll in “ALL” of baseball in 2019 and didn’t even make the playoffs.
We can’t rely on billionaires with a passion for the game to keep bailing us out.
And for the fans to just keep paying more and more.
As a baseball fan, every game with an opener feels like a spring training exhibition, pretty boring to watch a string of 1-2 inning pitchers. The solution is to train pitchers differently. There has been a such a concern about pitch counts, innings limits, etc and at the same time we expect them to train and play year round and only now how to pitch at max effort. The solution is resolving that system that isn’t preparing pitchers properly.
Or the solution is for you to get used to having pitchers go 1 or 2 innings?
At least open your mind to it being a winning concept.
Tampa did it in 2019 and they had a better record than Boston with a payroll a fraction of Boston’s.
I find it interesting that some fans, with -0- expertise in this area, insisted he would have TJS, despite not being recommended by Andrews. And, even now, still insist that he should have surgery, despite De Attache saying he doesn’t need it.
FWIW, if anything, Verlander could (hopefully) be a good comparison. When he got hurt in 2014, he had his first down season. He missed 2.5 months in 2015. He pitched poorly in his first 6 starts upon return. But then pitched to a 2.27 the rest of the way. And a 2.87 in his subsequent years.