7:30pm: The Twins have non-tendered Rosario, per a team announcement. They’ve also opted not to tender a contract to right-hander Matt Wisler.
Wisler’ departure is somewhat of a surprise, given that he pitched to a 1.07 ERA with 35 strikeouts in 25 1/3 innings. Wisler allowed far too many walks (14) and hit a pair of batters as well, but his departure thins out a relief corps that has already lost Trevor May, Sergio Romo and Tyler Clippard.
Dec. 2, 1:35pm: Rosario has cleared waivers, according to multiple reports (including this tweet from USA Today’s Bob Nightengale).
Dec. 1: The Twins have placed outfielder Eddie Rosario on outright waivers, Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic reports. The club previously tried to find a taker for Rosario in a trade, but it wasn’t able to do so, according to Rosenthal.
Rosario has until Wednesday to join another team on waivers. If not, the Twins could non-tender Rosario or try to re-sign him for less than the $8.6MM to $12.9MM he’s projected to receive in arbitration this winter. Rosario is slated to go through arbitration for the final time in the coming months.
The 29-year-old Rosario has spent his entire career with the Twins, who chose him in the fourth round of the 2010 draft. He has typically been a productive hitter since he debuted in 2015, evidenced by his .277/.310/.478 line across 2,830 plate appearances. Rosario has even hit at least 24 home runs on three occasions, including a career-best 32 in 2019, but his somewhat above-average offensive production might not be enough to keep him in a Twins uniform. The club has touted outfield prospects Alex Kirilloff and Trevor Larnach nearing MLB readiness, making it no surprise that it seems willing to cut the cord on Rosario.
Assuming he hits free agency next, Rosario should draw a decent amount of interest on the open market. He’d be one of the most appealing corner-capable outfielders available behind the likes of George Springer, Marcell Ozuna and Michael Brantley, who should earn much richer deals. Teams that need help in the outfield but aren’t willing to spend on any of those three could pivot to Rosario.
As someone who doesn’t pay much attention to Rosario or the Twins, I thought Rosario was a decent player. Did I miss something?
I’m confused also, I thought he was a solid player
Here are the real reasons why the Twins put Rosario on waivers. Yes, good prospects are waiting in the wings. But firstly, the man does not walk. He worked on being more patient at the plate over the offseason but he has a long way to go. If continues at his low-walk rate, he needs to bat around .300 to have any significant value. Secondly, he does a lot of impulsive acts. When those impulsive acts work out, great. But too often they do not. He has been thrown out trying to stretch singles into doubles, doubles into triples, going first to third on shallow singles, etc. He too often skips the cut-off man, throwing to bases where the runner is likely safe, letting other runners advance. And in the outfield, he has been known to go for balls he should just let drop in front of him. I appreciate his intensity (and he is a popular Twin) but too often he does not show discernment on plays in the OF. This is the smart move. Too bad a trade couldn’t get worked out.
Would they rather have 20 more walks or 20 fewer homers and 40 fewer rbi from their prospects? Add to that he really doesn’t strike out excessively. But I if he walked 20 more times over 700 plate appearances instead of putting the bell in play those 20, moving runners, maybe getting on via error, whatever, he’s more valuable? If we are going to toss batting average, let’s also toss on base percentage.
I hate that walks have become more important than run production, putting the ball in play with 2 strikes while striking out 162 times with a .225 average is ok is acceptable. Smh.
That’s a bit of a fallacy. If you were to ignore AVG and only look at the batter’s BB rate, that would be overlooking a lot. However, OBP is a combined measure, so AVG really isn’t “tossed out,” it’s just baked in.
Walks ARE run production. They have become more important because studies show they lead to a good offense. Walking twenty times IS better than putting the ball in play twenty times. Leads to more runs. This is basic analytics. Not trying to be rude but you and others like you really need to read up on this. I used to be anti-analytics until I actually studied up. But every front office would now agree, as would every scout: walking twenty times is WAY more valuable than putting the ball in play twenty times and batting .300 ( 1.000 OBP leads to more runs than batting .300 with OBP .300).
The RBI’s really depend on who’s in the line-up where. What’s stopping Alex Kirilloff having 120 RBI’s? Rosario batted in the 4 hole in 2019 which is ovbisously going to see a lot of multi-RBI opportunities.
Excellent analysis. Rosario’s antics defensively and base running were tolerated far too long and may have been accepted due to his “youth”. That no longer applies. Will be interesting to see what kind of contract he gets from another (hopefully NL team). I will be shocked if he gets anything beyond a 2-year deal with any more than a $15-16m payout.
Tipsy, you nailed it.
“But every front office would now agree, as would every scout: walking twenty times is WAY more valuable than putting the ball in play twenty times and batting .300”
To put it in the hard numbers
20 times on from 20 PA, 20 BB
6 times on from 20 PA, 20 bip (.300 babip)
That is a 14 times on base difference
Now a team scores about 50% of the times a guy gets to first (it’s roughly 0.85 runs with zero outs, 0.50 one out, 0.20 two out) so
10 runs on 20 walks
3 runs on 20 bip
That’s a 7 run difference on average
There is zero question which is more valuable here, and it’s rather unbelievable this is somehow still being debated in 2020
Side note – the “moving runners” argument is also false. A team with a runner at 1st with 0 outs will score about 0.85 runs, a runner at 1st with 1 out is down to 0.65 – that’s about a .20 drop in scoring if you ‘moved him over’ while committing an out. Meanwhile the team could have instead had runners at 1st & 2nd with 0 outs if the batter walked (1.44 runs expected from that situation, so a .60 increase walking instead of moving a guy at 1B over)
Don’t you be bringing no run expectancy matrix stuff into this forum. Way to advanced for these ‘our GM stinks because he didn’t sign every free agent types’.
I would go even further. Walks are even more important that stats show because pitchers eventually might try to groove one to prevent a walk and almost every advanced stat goes way up in a hitters count. So being able to work pitchers is HUGELY underrated. They also lead to higher pitch counts and everyone should know tired pitchers are general not as good, and getting to a bullpen early is usually helpful, especially in a series, Baserunners also affect a shift and defensive metrics. They also affect pitching mechanics (though some are better from the stretch).
So many things to like about walks. There is a reason why a big home run might kill a rally, but a string of guys getting on base with walks usually ends up with more runs.
About the only negative is that walks are a bit more boring. Let’s face it .. “chicks dig the long ball’.
By the way .. in your side node “a runner at 1st with 1 out is down to 0.65 ” should have been “a runner at 2nd with 1 out is down to 0.65′. The logic is still sound.
I hope everyone goes and looks up Run Expectancy after viewing your post. It’s really shocking it is not talked about more frequently. The NFL implements two-point conversions and you hear broadcasters talking about when to go for it, how early, and such on a weekly basis .. but Run Expectancy … you just never hear about it from broadcasters. At all.
It can not be understated how important simply talking pitches is. From the simple fact you highlight that it puts the pitcher behind in the count and more likely to toss a lollipop to avoid the walk, to the increased odds he simply makes a mistake, forcing pitchers to throw is an extreme advantage. Also means you help show many more of the pitchers pitches, meaning guys on deck get a better view of what he has working that day. (Oddly, this was talked about a ton in the 90s, when “true leadoff hitters” were all the rage, but now is ignored a lot since walks have become such a focus) So I agree completely, walks have many hidden benefits on top of the obvious increased scoring opportunities they produce.
And yes, I now see I mistakenly typed a 1B there haha. Thanks. The 2b scoring rate was correct though, at least
But I too question why no one talks about run expectancy. It’s not anything fancy really, it’s just the average odds as to likelihood of scoring. Everyone should be able to understand it easily …but when embracing them, people quickly learn things like the Sac Bunt are run killers of the game, and I’m not sure if everyone is ready for that. Too much oldschool thought in the game still
to much money for us
Too expensive for Minnesota, and they have a couple just-as-good OF prospects waiting in the wings. Rosario would be a great fit in RF if and when the White Sox miss out in Springer
RF? More like DH of LF with Eloy to DH. But I would certainly claim him if I’m Rick Hahn.
Just don’t think he makes it to WA in claim.
But
Hopefully the nats can get him. They need someone with decent power and a left fielder. Mike Rizzo please get him!
@maximumvelocity
There’s no way Eloy’s the full-time DH anytime in the next few years. There’s already a glut at DH. As long as Abreu and Vaughn are both on the team, it would be foolish to put Eloy at DH. Eloy is fine in LF. Yes, he does have his moments (like the inside-the-park HR at Milwaukee), but overall he actually looked better this season (I know, that’s not saying much). If Manny Ramirez played LF all those years, Eloy is fine in LF. Manny makes Eloy look like a Gold Glove.
Eloy’s Gold Glove must still be stuck in the netting down the left field line at Guaranteed Rate Field.
Manny hit .300+ averaging 30+ HRs and a 120+ RBI’s every season. The terrible defense and clownish antics were easier to swallow when every time he came to the plate he could change the game with one swing
Eloy is pretty terrible defensively but his bat is nowhere close to that good, at least not yet
Just-as-good? That remains to be seen. I understand why they let him go, but if Cruz and Rosario leave, that’s a big hit to their offense that the prospects likely will be challenged to fill from the start.
He’s not too expensive. If you read the article you would see we have two big time OF prospects that are major league ready.
Sure. Get rid of the proven above average player in order to play the two guys that you hope will become above average players. Perfect logic if you live in Bizarro world.
Well it’s happening before your very blind eyes. Hence the article.
Or Cleveland…
Good call
@chitown311, That was my first thought on reading this: that he’d be a fallback option after Springer. He’s not been good defensively in RF, but he’s only played in 67 games there and has been just slightly below average defensively for his career. Sox could definitely do worse.
Well, if the prospects are “just as good”, I guess we should just pencil them in for .275/30/100 and sign ‘em for 8 years now.
Just because you can’t understand analytics doesn’t make them wrong. RBI is the single most useless statistic available.
Amen, Shield. Well said.
@ShieldF123
You can explain it to them, but you can’t make them understand
Me too honestly we must have
Expected.. Hes an expensive league average player for them.. They have quality MLB ready prospect OFs
He’s expensive for the Twins, although he’s better than league average–a 2.5 win player putting up a 114 OPS+ the last four years. At 29, he won’t have a shortage of suitors, maybe even the Twins at a lower price if they lose Nelson Cruz at DH. They do have prospects coming for the OF, but not guarantee they’ll hit like Rosario.
Offensive WAR around 2.5. He’s really best as a DH who a team can slot into the OF from time to time, but I wouldn’t plan on him being a regular OFer. Once again, this is not about his bat, but his OBP and glove.
I would think they know they have Cruz in the bag if they are letting him go.
I don’t think that’s true supposedly the Twins made a one year offer and that offer is now no longer on the table.
Cruz wants two, probably guaranteed, which I’m not sure any team would guarantee the 2nd year. I’d like him back on the Twins, but probably not for two guaranteed.
Almost everyone that is not an elite defender is best as just a DH. If you just concentrate on hitting exclusively, you are probably going to be better at it.
@dpsmith22, Not necessarily. There’s a deadline to tender contracts, while Cruz has no deadline to sign. They’ve just decided that he’s replaceable and they’d rather spend that money elsewhere.
@hiflew, That’s not necessarily true. Some guys need to be in the field to keep their focus. Frank Thomas was never good defensively, but his numbers at the plate suffered so much when he DH’d that it was better to play him at 1B. It’s similar to how a closer has to have a different mindset than an average reliever; a DH has to have a different mindset than an average hitter.
Same thing the Orioles said. How did that turn out? Do you think he won’t hit 25-30 homers in the 2nd year of the deal? If you do, his 2 year/ 30 mil contract is fair.
He just above average. A wRC+ of 105 in 2020 and 110 in 2019 says that he is barely above league average. He has a relatively low K rate, but he also has a very low walk rate. That coupled with BABIP of around .250 explains his low wRC+. He’ll catch on with another team, but probably won’t be a difference maker.
Rosario is a decent player the only problem was he costed too much and they can re-sign him for less. I’m sure they would have traded him if they had a taker but teams knew that the Twins were likely to release him.
I think the twins are trying to open the door for Krilloff but could be wrong. Rosario was projecting 9-10 million arb so they rather not pay him and allow young, cheaper options get opportunites
i think its subpar defense and OBP that harms him. i personally think its overstated, but i understand the reasons why people think this way.
The defense is -1.5 dWAR over the course of his career. He’s actually had positive dWAR in 4 of his 6 seasons. It’s certainly true that his OBP suffers mightily because of his deplorable BB rate, but he’s still above average as a hitter, even if not elite. So I agree with you, these issues are overstated.
He’s coming off a down year and thru arbitration was going to make between $10-12M. Twins decided since they are loaded with outfield prospects to go a cheaper route. Kiriloff will take over left and has a much higher upside. The biggest criticism of Rosario that I’ve heard is his OBP, which is lower than you might expect. I think he’s a career .310 OBP. Still, as an Astros fan, we need two outfielders. Wouldn’t mind kicking the tires on him if price is right.
A down year? He was the same player he’s always been.
Career BA/OBP/SLG/OPS/OPS+:
.277/.310/.478/.788/109
2020:
.257/.316/.476/.792/115
Virtually no difference.
Well some of baseball’s best are coming off down years
Braves should jump on this if he makes it to them through waivers.
If the Braves picked up all the players that people on this board recommend they pick up, they’d have a roster of about 75.
True, but they’re bound to be right on one of them!
Lordd99 – “true, but they’re bound to be right on one of them!” …..made me laugh out loud….
Ya, and a roster of 75 would probably exceed the CBT by $200 million….lol
The Pirates could field a team of 75 and stay under $100 Million.
Why? They have Pache/Waters ready to take over in the outfield. They need a power bat to slot behind Freeman. I don’t think Rosario is the answer.
I agree, McGriff. No knock on Rosario, as he seems like a pretty decent ballplayer. I just can’t see him hitting 3rd or 4th on a potential World Series team; and that’s the hole the Braves need to fill. Good player, just poor fit.
Waters won’t arrive until 2022 at the earliest. Pache in CF, Acuna in RF, Rosario/Duvall in LF. Makes sense for 2021. Based on their moves thus far, probably still enough to re-sign Ozuna if a DH announcement comes sooner than later and Melancon and/or Greene.
100% agree. They need a legit 3-4 hitter. Rosario is too much like Riley and the Braves cannot afford to be that patient if they want to win it all
Hits the ball hard but swings from his heels and swings and misses a ton. Terrible on-base history. He’s pretty dime a dozen to be honest and many teams (like the Twins) have better options waiting their turns in the minors.
His K rate was 14.7% last year, that’s not bad. In fact of the 203 players to get at least 150 PA’s last year he had the 26th best K rate of them.
He might swing from his heals until he gets to 2 strikes, but his HR/K rate is pretty darn good.
Twins fan here.
Issues with Eddie (for what they’re worth):
* OBP … historically doesn’t draw walks, doesn’t contribute a lot beyond BA & Slugging percentage.
* Defense – good arm from the outfield, but (a) range has degraded over the years; and (b) doesn’t use his arm “smart”; too many throws which miss cutoff man, which allow other runners to advance, when he has no shot at the base to which he’s throwing.
If Eddie had more discipline at the plate & in the field, he’d be a big time contributor – but he is what he is.
He hit .257 with a 317 OB % in 2020 that actually shows a marked improvement in Then’patience’ category in 2020 , albeit a small sample
His career OBP is the same as Moose, Moose got 4 years 64 mil last year and was two years older than Rosario is now. ~10M$ for 1 year of his career production is not a bad thing.
****Defense – good arm from the outfield, but (a) range has degraded over the years; and (b) doesn’t use his arm “smart”; too many throws which miss cutoff man, which allow other runners to advance, when he has no shot at the base to which he’s throwing.******
Sounds like you are describing the Tigers outfield.
@BD57
Said differently– low baseball IQ.
Smart players can get paid. Less clever Corner OF won’t be paid a premium
Hits homers, good average… value dragged down by inconsistent fielding and a lack of walks.
I saw a few of his games this year and his effort on both sides of the ball left a lot to be desired. His routes to the ball really was lackluster. Think Allen iverson playing baseball without the talent.
This!!! I agree 100%, watching him slowly trot to 1st after hitting a slow dribbler on a first pitch breaking ball at the end of game 2 against Houston raised my blood pressure more than anything else that series and that’s saying something. Everything has to line up perfectly for him to give it his all.
Defense is bad…had a career offensive year last year and was just 1.7 bWAR and 1.2 fWAR. Has only had 1 year above 2.0WAR because of his D.
Well, he typically doesn’t walk much, so he’s a low-OBP fielder with decent pop, but overall lacks above-average tools.
Yea the Twins are imbeciles. Carry on.
How? They would’ve tried to trade him and apparently there were no takers. He’s not worth what he would’ve got due to his defense and on base skills.
How are they imbeciles for letting him go? He looks more like a 4th outfielder.
A top 50 OF (in 2020 in WAR) is a 4th OF? Interesting.
Can we have a moratorium on using 2020 “season” stats in arguments?
Imagine if you said that Rosario was a top 50 OF for two months in 2019.
I used the most recent data point. Please consider his 2019 stats where he was also top 50. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.
The bizarre thing is, everyone saying this move makes sense *is* relying on the shortened season. Arguably, so are the twins.
Had a 115 OPS+ last season, virtually matching his 114 OPS+ for the past four years as a regular. Since there are only 30 teams, each with three starting OFers, being top 50 isn’t exactly a stretch.
Well if he’s been top 50 by WAR since 2019, or 2018, or whatever, then great. That’s a better argument in his favor.
And I’m not even trying to argue against Rosario. I just think it’s crazy how many people make arguments based on the 2020 “season.”
If were a top 50 outfielder, then why did they outright him? Obviously, the rest of Baseball doesn’t feel he is that good.
The move makes sense from a business stand point. From a statistical stand point not really. These prospects could get to the majors and flop and Rosario could be his normal self. Its a gamble move really prospects are never a sure thing, but its the difference of league minimum to 9-12 million. If the prospects thrive then the gamble pays off. If they flop then maybe it doesn’t? Only time will tell on things like this. I solute the twins for at least trying to trade him. I’ve seen clubs not pick up options for a 1 million buy out for players making the same salary that are going to get nothing in return… Seemingly without even exploring trade markets
Like saying the Dodgers won a real World Series
A bunch of gobbledygook. You really believe that the Twins didn’t explore trade options before they released him. They obviously released him because they could not find a player that they want on their 25 man roster.
They outrighted him because they are being cheap (so are most other clubs). No one offered to trade for him because they can sign him later this week and give up nothing to the Twins in the process (not to mention they aren’t hamstrung by an arbitrator if they sign him as a FA).
I think you using the false notion that by being in the top 90 of OFrs that means you’re automatically a sought after starter. It doesn’t work that way.
Puig is a good example. Decent player, maybe not top 100 outfielder, but also not a bad player… No contract for him though, I don’t have to speculate as to the reasons why… Anyone who follows this site knows.
He was worth 1.2 fWAR in 2019. That can’t be in the top 50 in the MLB.
But the Dodgers did win a real World Series.
WAR huh? Here are Eddie Rosario’s Statcast percentile rankings for the 2020 season. For reference, think of the 50th precentile’ as being “average”. An higher percentile number above 50 is above average whilst a lower number is below average.
Exit Velocity: 28
Hard Hit%: 30
xwOBA: 38
xBA: 40
xSLG: 57
Barrel%: 30
K%: 89
BB%: 38
Whiff%: 69
Spring Speed: 51
Outfielder Jump: 33
Outs Above Average:
Looking at these rankings as well as seasons prior has led me to the following conclusion:
Eddie Rosario has never been a MVP candidate in terms of value. At his absolute best he is a starting outfielder that’s good, perhaps even all-star good. At his absolute worst, he is a quad-a player entering or exiting the bus to Rochester. From his stats, I’m seeing better walk rates and a drop in his strike out rates for 2020, but a decline in every one of his rates involving how hard he hits the ball and how often he does it.
Whatever the case, Eddie Rosario has only ever been a MVP fallible player in counting stats and slash lines. In terms of how much value he has actually produced? Absolutely not. He is a bland coffee that sometimes has a bit of flavor added, but only enough for you to just notice it.
Statistics sources: baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/eddie-rosario…
Hmmm. Interesting. Defense in right field doesn’t look good but he’s fine in left and carries a solid bat.
In fairness, he’s only played 67 games there, and only once has he played more than 16 games there in a year. I believe at least some of the miscues are to him not being familiar with the position.
He really doesn’t have that solid of a bat. He’s like basically Dave Kingman-lite.
Obp sinkhole
Rangers. Please. If we don’t want to get Kim and actually want to move Solak to 2b (bad move btw), then we need to sign Rosario for LF. At least give us a good outfield.
I think the Rangers are in cost cutting mode man. Too bad since they have first dibs; waiver pickup starts in the same league going from worst to first.
If I were to wager, I’d say Boston snags Rosario up like a cookie.
I thought Kim was the only real option for a (good) free agent pickup for us since he’s actually really young, but if we don’t go that route, guys like Rosario aren’t old farts. I think we have a way better chance of snagging Kim, but Rosario would be nice (key word: would be). I do think he’ll be snagged by Boston though, it’d be great for them if he fell into their laps.
I think the Rangers will also go get a veteran, righthanded outfielder. Not sure if that changes if we go hard after Kim, but I was actually excpecting to be in the Ozuna market this offseason.
I wouldn’t hate grabbing Rosario. Gallo would probably appreciate another 20+ HR bat in the lineup.
They can replace him for half the cost,
or less.
Good lucking finding a 115 OPS+ player on a one year ~5M$ deal this winter.
Good luck starting an awful fielder in your OF.
This. Brent Rooker may already be better than him, nevermind Larnach or Kirilloff.
I’d like for the Cardinals to get him but they’re broke
That would be nice!!
As a matter of fact, I saw both DeWitts out in front of the Galleria collecting donations while Fredbird played the violin!
Sad times we live in…
Ya this is a very good target for them, they have to do something
With there luck they’d sign Rosario and the player they’d trade away or let go to clear room in the outfield will hit .300 and clobber 30+ homeruns cause you know they are holding on to Folwer no matter what so that means cutting one of the young guys loose… Being the on going theme with them of late is they trade a prospect or major league ready player and boom that player does very well. Arozarena, Voit, Mercado (bad 2020), Alcantara, Gallen, to name a few
I like Arozarena but it is entirely too soon to call that trade. We still need to see Liberatore. Others can be debated. Voit was sold low. Although he was bad in 2019
Count this longtime Twins fan in the “not disappointed” crowd to see Rosario leave. Yes, it would’ve been nice to find a trade partner, but I’m sure every GM knew he would be non-tendered as the Twins have Kirilloff ready to replace him in LF with Trevor Larnach close behind. It was simply time to go for Eddie. A productive bat at times that will need to be replaced, but I will definitely NOT miss his horrible ABs, baserunning miscues and inconsistent defense. Falvey would be wise to go after Kevin Pillar as 4th OF (and likely CF replacement for Buxton’s inevitable injury/DL time).
Rosario is solid, the Twins just couldn’t afford him. I’m sure he will fit in with a bunch of lineups.
This is absolutely the player the Marlins should target to fix the revolving RF door… at least for 2021. Dickerson/Marte/Rosario with Brinson, Sierra and/or Harrison off the bench seems solid. Jesus Sanchez as immediate AAA depth… Gives Bleday and Encarnacion some more time to develop after a lost 2020.
Who are some arms (just one)
You would of been willing to deal for Eddie Rosario , ..especially considering you work out a 3 or 4 yr extension with him??
I know Pablo Lopez , Sixto Sanchez , and Sandy Alcantara are No go’s
But just about anyone else would of sufficed , right ?
I feel like Trevor Rodgers or Nick Neidhart and a lower prospect would’ve done it. But the market is not good for high cost players so who knows.
Definitely not Rogers, and probably not Neidert. Extension wasn’t gonna happen so it would have always been a rental. Low level prospect, sure, might have done that. Lucky for us, im not GM and Marlins have a shot at signing him for even less than what they would have traded him for.
@steve
No MLB team was willing to trade for him at his projected salary, and you want to sign him to an extension!!?? Sounds like you’re a Will Myers fan, contract and all.
Well, a team like the Marlins would be interested in him for more than one year. At least until Bleday and the kid are ready
Jesus Sanchez, I believe, will never be as good as Rosario is now
Interesting. He’s ~ 1.9 War player on avg with a big chunk of that coming in 2018. His projected arb number is substantial and Minnesota isn’t going to commit that much for a below 2 WAR player in the hope of getting surplus value.
The Cubs will non-tender Bryant if they use any similar rationale. I wonder if that non-tender actually happens. I’d definitely not offer KB arbitration at an expected $19MM salary. He’s a slightly over 2 WAR player on average for the last 3 seasons- assuming the 0.3 from this past season would have grown to ~ 1.0 in 162 games.
I suspect the Twins will regret this move. Rosario is a naturally talented hitter who plays with passion, unlike so many other Twins players. His judgment is poor in the field but he makes great plays and then misses the cutoff man. The younger OFs will not be defensive improvements.
So… what’s the distinction between putting him on waivers and non-tendering him? What distinguishes players who need to be put on waivers and players who can just be cut?
If you claim him you are on the hook for (argument’s sake) $10mm in arb. There are many teams that won’t see value in that level; it wouldn’t surprise me if he passes through waivers and hit the market, probably signing for $6mm or so. He’s solid, but we’ve probably seen his ceiling, and he could very well be what he was last year.
He hit .257 with a 317 OB % in 2020 that actually shows a marked improvement in The ‘patience’ category in 2020 , albeit a small sample
Thats laughable.. a 1 yr deal for 6 million. ?
HES BETTER THAN THAT
No, no…Any team that signs will only have to pay the league minimum, $.5 million dollars. The Twins have to pay him $10 million.
No…whoever claims him would have to pay his full arbitration price whatever that may end up being (9-10M probably). The Twins would be completely off the hook and owe nothing.
No Howie.
Little game called just the tip…of the iceberg.
Lot’s of good players are getting non-tendered tomorrow.
Only for a second though, just to see how it feels.
The belt tightening begins.bryant,g. Sanchez and more to follow.
Teams are going to get value picks on the waiver wire this year
Braynt is not getting non-tenured. This idea is beyond ridiculous.
Bryant and Sanchez will not be non-tendered. Those are click-bait names. If you don’t believe me, check back Wednesday evening in less than 24 hours..
Wow, 2020 is truly a strange year. A team can be the worst in the game and probably build a playoff caliber team by picking up waiver guys, releases, and non-tenders.
I think Jeter and Co. may want to think about getting some of these freebies. We don’t have to give anything in a deal other than money.
Agreed
Get used to this. A sign of the times. Teams can’t afford the salaries they created. There will be more surprises.
bye bye Roughned Odor
Pham for 8 million or Rosario for 12 million?
Rosario will only get 9.25 Mm for 2021 at best
I hope not. Rosario has a bit more power, but Pham’s on-base ability is more valuable to the Padres.
As a Twins and Padres fan, you don’t want Rosario. I love the guy but he will give you fits with his bonehead throws, bonehead running plays, bonehead missed catches, and swinging at pitches a foot above the strike zone. He also doesn’t walk and doesn’t hit with a high enough average or power to be worth the money.
Pham, easily.
You kind of knew this was coming. With Kirilloff looking ready to settle into an everyday role and nowhere else to put him, added to Rosario’s OBP and defensive struggles… this was inevitable.
Long time Twins fan here , pretty massively disappointed with this situation. As I’ve followed Rosario since his 4th round selection out of Puerto Rico a decade ago. NOT only is it disturbing the Twins are moving on from him in this way; his fellow countrymen Jose Berrios, also of Puerto Rico – It feels like any possible long term extension with him Is also simultaneously damned. This is why I rejected a front office position from this team a few years back via fangraphs. I cannot resonate with some of these moves.
Nick Anderson was let go for Brian SCHALES
Ryan Pressly for a box of Acalas
Huscuar Ynoa , Luis Gil netted essentially zilch
Nothing for Aaron Hicks
Trevor Larnach has ZERO reasoning to let Rosario go
Alex Kirilloff is a solid player but neither guy has Rosario’s rocket Arn in left field
The single best gundown and assist man in the Major Frickn Leagues the last 4 seasons has been Eddie Rosario he throws you out at 2nd base and home plate time and time again.
Definitely frustrating to get nothing for him , especially since I floated out Marlins for the last year + for Sandy Alcantara and now with his explosion maybe a lower level arm. Just dissatisfied nothing got done on this front. it seems like lazy F.O. work to me.
You actually got a FO job offer from an MLB team!!!??? What kinda crazy resume do you have???
I don’t think he got any front office offers. He probably just applied for a position through the Fangraphs website. If you google Fangraphs job openings, you will see that they post every opening around the league.
Bump. You got offered a FO job? What do you do?
The year 2020 strikes again. Any other year this doesn’t happen.
Rosario is a really good example of a player who is generally above average..just not above average enough. These are the kind of players that will keep reminding us how unusual the offseason market really is.
The Twins have three very promising young outfielders in Kirilloff, Larnach and Rooker who should all be MLB ready next season. The team probably figured they could replace Rosario’s production with one or several of those three for a fraction of the cost – money which could then be used on pitching, the team’s biggest.
Replacing the offense from the start might be a challenge, but replacing him as an overall player with a better defensive player and better baserunner is possible.
Marlins written need to claim Rosario
Maybe not claim him but certainly make a run to sign him for less and see if he can man RF even with crap defense and hope the offense and his arm make up for it. Just for a year.
Seems like the kind of deal Oakland makes. Cleveland probably would make some degree of sense too
CLE needs to do whatever is necessary to land Rosario. For one they have a screaming need in the OF, but just as importantly Rosario has always been a Tribe killer. I don’t think they’d give him more than $6M per year, so it’s probably just a pipe dream on my part.
If he’d play for the MLB minimum.
Cleveland makes too much sense for him. Not only do they have arguably the worst OF situation in the bigs, but you know Rosario would be amped up to take down the Twins. If you are a team in the division looking to take them down, he would be an excellent pickup. For that matter, he might make a good pick up for the White Sox if they NT Nomar Mazara.
@hiflew, Indians won’t pay him. They let Brad Hand go because they didn’t want to pay him $10M, so I doubt they pick up Rosario to pay him about the same.
I’d love to see him in CLE. Only one problem; he will require more than the $1.50 they’d offer him.
Wouldn’t hate to see this guy on the Yankees roster. Of course they have Frazier but they could potentially add Rosario and inject much needed lefty power and move Frazier in a potential deal for pitching.
Would love this move. I wish they could move on from Hicks but with his contract it’s unlikely.
Amazing day and age. He’s driven me crazy over the years, but I like watching him hit. I’ll always remember his 1st AB
1st pitch he saw at that
Unrated player as a hitter while his de is just average he would be a great fit for many clubs even at 12 millish this is a more a statement of the twins then him as a player for most teams his arb number plenty reasonable for what he provides at the plate…but for them they are always pinching pennies …i will agree the have some really nice prospects coming up the pipeline …but still he is above average easily at his current salary numbers…sadly this has classic cardinals steal written all over it unless u are a cards fan of course lol
This has Blue Jays written all over it…
He won’t be without a MLB job for long.
Of course they he won’t, they only have to pay the league minimum.
You have said this multiple times and it’s just not true. If he gets claimed the claiming team pays him his arbitration salary, not the Twins. Thus the whole point of the non tender.
I like Eddie as a personality and his quick wrists with the bat but it was time to do this. According to reports, they’ve been trying to trade him for years but it hasn’t happened which isn’t really surprising. He has a great arm in the field and for some reason players still run on him, but that’s the only thing he’s good at defensively. He’s average or below average otherwise (seems to only be good when Buxton is in CF). As far as the bat…again the quick wrists are awesome but he needs to improve his eye at the plate big time. He can go 2-3 months where he is patient and then he goes back to being swing at everything Eddie.
Kirilloff is ready to take over if they decide to use him in the OF, otherwise Larnach or Rooker. The Twins will be fine. It would have been nice to get something for Rosario but it’s not surprising that no team seems to think he has excess value.
Just a refresher on waivers, the team with the worst record in the released players league has the right to claim the player first and so on to the best team. Then it switches leagues from worst to first.
In Rosario’s case, Rangers have first dibs but will probably pass. I think Boston snags him.
You should include in your refresher course that the Twins are on the hook for his 2021 salary, $11 million. Any team that picks him up is only has to pay him the league minimum, around $.5 million dollars. When teams think they can get a veteran at a Minor League salary, I think you can do the math.
That’s not true Howie. The entire purpose behind this was so the Twins didn’t have to pay Rosario
Sorry Howie, that’s incorrect. If this were during the season when the contract were guaranteed you’d be right. Also, because Rosario is an arbitration eligible player his salary has not been set, meaning his $11M salary is just a guess at this point.
But I do admire your passion!
I looked up his contact. It is $11 million. You don’t understand arbitration works. He already signed a contract. It gets back to original contention. He’s at best a 4th outfielder. He’s a mediocre hitter.
Actually Howie, you don’t understand how it works. He has not signed a contract, he’s arbitration eligible. The reason the Twins made this move today is so they won’t be on the hook for a single penny owed to him next year. If he’s not claimed on waivers, he’ll be non-tendered prior to the deadline today.
Spotrac is not accurate. If you click on the 11M it says “estimate” which means that is what that site believes Eddie will get in arbitration.
Eddie has not been offered a contract for 2021 yet but is still under team control. The deadline to tender him is Wednesday (not sure what time).
If a team claims him, they owe his arbitration salary whatever that may be. That site thinks 11M but others think it will be in the 9M range. Either way, the Twins owe him nothing if another team claims him or if they just release him to free agency.
Even if the Twins agreed to a contract with him, arbitration contracts are not guaranteed until opening day so they could release him prior to opening day and not owe most of the contract (they have to pay some though)
Howie, you are still wrong. He has no contract at this time. If you were looking at Spotrac, salaries listed there in purple — like the $11M for Rosario — are clearly only estimates, as the color guide there says.
If a team picks him up on waivers, they will get exactly what the Twins have now — an arbitration-eligible player who they will either (1) enter into a pre-tender contract with, (2) non-tender and owe nothing, or (3) tender a contract with the salary to be determined later by agreement or by arbitration if no agreement is reached.
Dude. You are confused. He has contract with the Twins. They are not Non-Tendering him. They are out right him.
No. He was outrighted. They didn’t non-tender him.
He wasn’t non-tendered. He was outrighted. Twins are still on the hook for his 2021 contract.
He is on waivers. He will be non tendered tomorrow if a team does not claim him.
He does not have a 2021 contract (this is even mentioned in paragraph 2).
Howie, you are thinking of when a player with a guaranteed contract is let go. This is a non guaranteed, arbitration contract.
He was outrighted. What are you confused about.
Except for the fact that he already had a guaranteed contract for 2021. You guys can’t accept he wasn’t a top 50 outfielder. Why can’t you accept that fact?
Because it is not a fact. Anyone’s list of a top 50 is not a fact. It is just someone’s opinion. All rankings are just opinions. You can base a top 50 on anything you want and it would still be your opinion of the top 50.
There is a thing called “outright WAIVERS”..
What this means is, a player is placed on waivers, where every team gets a chance to claim him as explained above by others.
Should the player go unclaimed, then the original team has the choice to outright him down to the minors (players in some situations can refuseand enter free agency) or, of course, the team can elect to non-tender him or tender and later release him as also described above.
Team control does not automatically mean under contract. Just that no other team can interfere and negotiate directly with that player or his reps, nor interfere/tamper with the controlling teams interests.
Currently, no contract has been offered aka tendered for the 2021 season.
He was in his arbitration years. Such contracts are never guaranteed, you can always just decline to pay it and the player is free. Arbitration years are different than being under a guaranteed contract.
Not true anymore Dave. What you stated used to be correct, but I believe they eliminated the league separation for waiver priority a couple of years ago. In that case, the draft order is also the waiver order for every player.
Although it would nice if they did it like fantasy where if you claim a player, you go to the bottom of the list. Or maybe just down below all other non-playoff teams. Playoff teams should stay at the bottom regardless.
Eddie is the worst. Constantly swinging at garbage and rolling it over to second. Sings at stuff the catcher has to jump for. I think he is worth about 2-4 million and that is what he will get. Heard it here first.
Coming from a guy that makes him living turning tricks in public bathrooms.
Punto — He might get more than that but you are correct. He swings at terrible pitches. He doesn’t walk. And he makes too many bonehead plays in the outfield, with his throws, on the base paths, etc. I like him. I like his strange intensity. I want him to do well but he isn’t worth the money.
I think the Yankees should take a look at him. He’s a lefty outfielder and the Yankees have a too righty lineup!
Would love Eddie on the yankees but there’s no room with Stanton and Frazier now vying for time. If the yankees could some how unload Stanton then Rosario would be a great addition
I am sure the Indians will be taking a look at this guy. Not only do they have a clear need in the OF, but Rosario destroys the ball at Progressive Field.
I agree 100%, that was my suggestion as well!
Come on Angels
The guy passes the eye test at the plate when I’ve watch him hit.
Heyman, is reporting Cubs will offer Bryant a contract. Take it for what its worth with Heyman.
Rosario is a good buy low option. Marlins, Angels, Tigers, Astros, Braves, Indians, lots of teams could take a flyer on him once he becomes a free agent
so compare the Buxton, Sano, Kepler and Rosario.. they all have near the same service time.. Rosario is by far been the most consistent of the 4.. and has been a steady contributor.. they Twins are just being cheap… as for the prospects.. average prospect development time is 3 years+.. to be the player they are going to be.. its downgrading the team… and with the need for 2 starters, and at least 3 bullpen arms and the loss of Cruz getting more likely.. down grading the Team who was claiming they were seeing their window of opportunity opening.. they are closing it.. and will be on the outside looking in to the White Sox and probable Cleveland next season…
someoldguy — Did you watch Rosario play on a regular basis? Didn’t think so. Rosario makes horrible, bonehead plays in the outfield, on the basepaths, and at the plate. He cost the Twins runs on a fairly regular basis. He swings at bad pitches and doesn’t walk. Any questions?
Yes I watched him virtually every game he was in the Twins uniform and yes he made stupid plays and yes he made brilliant plays in the field and in on the base paths.. and yes he swung at crap.. and he hit a lot of it… unlike Sano who can’t hit anything that isn’t served up on a Tee and swing and misses at balls in the strike zone… do the comparison… look at their over all production numbers look at their consistency.. Rosario was clearly the most consistent one of the bunch… and an above average hitter.. maybe those amber colored glasses you are looking thru are clouding your vision..
I don’t think they’ll fall behind the White Sox based on Rosario. Now, if they lose Cruz as well and don’t make up for it with significant acquisitions, then yeah, they fall behind. As for Cleveland, it seems almost a given that they’ll trade Lindor, most likely for prospects, so they’re likely to fall behind anyway.
based on Rosario, needing 2 starters, 3 bullpen arms and they could lose cruz… they are behind the White sox… and maybe Cleveland who will have pitching..
He couldn’t be worse than Cristen Stewart. He could hold down RF in Detroit.
The Grichuk contract should be comparable start for Eddie. Eddie is a tick better.
can we stop saying this only happened “because 2020?” there were reasons he was non-tendered. if he’s worth the money he’ll get it in free agency. if he’s not actually worth it this was the right move to save a few million. hardlt a harbinger if anything, especially with guys like Elias Diaz, Luke Maile, and Michael A. Taylor all making solif paydays.
In any other year he would not be getting non-tendered (outright waivers for now).
Renato Nunez has put up the same offensive stats the last two seasons and was let go with only a 2.1 million price tag. Obviously Nunez is a straight DH but if Cruz leaves Twins can bring in Nunez and save a grip of cash!
It is amazing to me that you guys won’t except facts. You guys keep arguing. You won’t accept facts. The Twins outrighted Eddie Rosario because didn’t offer any value on their 25 man roster. Teams didn’t trade for Eddie Rosario because he didn’t offer any value to their rosters.
Or, twins outrighted him because either a) they felt they could replace his production cheaper through what the post-2020 FA prices appear to be, or b) didn’t find their payroll affordable and sought to save the cash.
Other teams didn’t see a point in paying prospects for someone they can soon acquire on a cash only basis.
Neither says anything about the ability of the player to supplement the roster.
The Twins have a pretty competent management. Why would they outright an outfielder who is supposed to be one of the best outfielders in baseball.
He’s not. I watched him every day. He is a poor fielder. He makes bonehead, impulsive plays that cost the team runs, is a bad-pitch swinger, and doesn’t walk. He’s like a JV version of Joe Carter.
Looks like Luis Tiant and David Ortiz may have company.
It is still amazing that you guys don’t get it. If Eddie Rosario is a top 50 outfielder, why couldn’t the the Twins find a trade partner. The fact is; they will receive no compensation for outrighting him. I know you people will complain. The Twins owe him $10 million for 2021. His next contract will be a Minor league one with a spring training invite. It will be an AL club. Smaller outfield.
Twins owe $0 going forward unless and unail they tender a contract, and they haven’t yet.
If they do, salary will be set via arbitration, or, an as yet undetermined contract
I think about 25 people have now corrected you that the Twins don’t owe him anything for next year because of this move. I’m not sure why you continue to argue that so passionately.
What you are thinking of is people with actual contracts in hand. Rosario hasn’t met service time requirements yet and is “under team control” until he does. As long as the team agrees to keep him around, his salary is determined by arbitration. They can avoid arbitration by making a deal, including an extension for well beyond his arbitration years. If they don’t want to keep him around, they can put him on waivers… if another team claims him, his arbitration clock continues… UNDER CONTROL of that new team. Who would then pay his salary. If no one claims him, his arbitration days are over and he becomes a free agent and can sign for anything… or fade into obscurity. But the twins owe him nothing right now and will only owe him salary if he reaches free agency and they decide to bring him back for a lower cost.
Zero chance it’s a minor league deal. He’ll find a starting job
That’s not true at all. Rosario is a good and useful player. However, he isn’t worth what his arbitration number is projected to be. Eddie Rosario at 10 million isn’t that great. Eddie Rosario at 5 million is. It’s not a matter of whether he’s worth a major league spot, it’s a matter of whether he’s worth what he is owed. If the Blue Jays didn’t already have similar players I’d be fine if they gave him a major league spot.
Why would the bankers who own the Twins want to keep Eddie Rosario, their clubhouse leader? When should leadership and productive play be considered when you can save a few bucks? It’s not like the Twins are interested in winning anything past the AL Central.
I’m not sure where you got the idea that Rosario was their leader, or that he was capable of getting them past the first round. In fact, he was a big part of their failure against the Yankees in 2019. Top of the 1st he hit a nice hit but got out, then in the bottom, DJ hit a ball far less hard but got a double out of it that Rosario had to field. When the camera panned back to him he looked like he was about to cry. Totally overwhelmed and emotional in a playoff game 0-0 in the 1st inning. Seriously go back and find that game and look at what I’m talking about
I love Rosario, sure he had a down year in 2020 but it was also a weird and short season. He will find a job in no time, I would love to see the Oakland A’s take a shot at him
Really nice player. His bat makes him an all star candidate every year. Has a couple warts on his game but most players do. Twins are rolling the dice on their COF trifecta that they can give similar results while saving 10 mil.
Edit:exciting to watch and sad to see him go but optimistic about the trifecta
Ugh. He’s nowhere near that good. Passed right through waivers.
He seems like a potential candidate for Atlanta to platoon with Duvall for the right price.
This is similar to the Villar situation with the orioles last year. WAR doesn’t capture some really bad decision making.
Poor man ( or middle class ) ‘s Pedersen ? Phillies ?
I don’t think he’s a poor man’s Pederson. Career WAR/162: 2.70 for Rosario, 2.25 for Pederson. Career OPS+: 109 vs 116, so just a tick behind, mostly due to not drawing walks. dWAR: -1.5 to -1.4. They’re very similar players in value, with a slight edge to Rosario in overall WAR.
Yeah but also heading into his age 30 year. Getting to the age when a lot of teams start worrying about career cliffs for hitters, and start wondering whether they hae a kid in AAA who can give them about the same production.
The Braves already have one free-swinger in Austin Riley. Not sure a LH version in the same lineup is beneficial, but if Rosario could be had for a reasonable price, he would be a nice LH side for a platoon with Duvall.
I sort of wanted Atlanta to get Joc Pederson for that role, but Eddie may be an option as well.
Rosario is a solid player, this was a bad decision by the Twins. All 29 teams should be looking to claim him
Yet no one will. He’s got no discipline, bad defense, and not a great mental game. Twins wouldn’t make this move if he was worth that kind of money. He’s a fun player to watch, but he’s not a different maker by any stretch
That depends on how bad a team currently is in RF. White Sox employed Mazara in 2020, and he was terrible. Rosario would represent roughly the same glove, but a much better bat. He won’t make the same kind of difference signing Springer or even Brantley would make, but they’d notice.
And he’s 30.
When it comes down too the truth of the matter anyone could sign him and make him work on their team.
The Indians should pick him up. They need a good power bat on the outfield!
They let Hand go because $10M was too much. Doubt they pick up Rosario for the same.
I think they will go for Rosario. He has stellar career numbers at Progressive Field. They can free-up roster space and salary by non-tendering Naquin and/or DeShields. Slide Naylor back to 1B and give Johnson a chance to start in RF.
This is a perfect example of how MLB economics screws over baseball’s middle class. A player who has been productive for a small/mid market team gets waived and hoped to resigned for less money.
Is it no wonder the players are receiving significantly less money as a % of total revenues than they did 10 years ago? Most likely making far less than players are making in the other 3 major sports, too.
Some may see this as Owner greed, but they’re only half right. The Players Union cares far too much about the players at the top of the food chain, and their Agents. If they truly had the best interest of their rank and file members as their primary priority, they would insist MLB create an economic system which included a salary cap/floor, and fully shared revenues.
Everyone gripes about the owners, and there’s a lot to gripe about with them, but the union has been happy riding a broken status quo for ages, and they’re upset only now that teams aren’t handing out bloated legacy contracts at the same rate they used to. Meanwhile pre-FA players (and, most players will never get a chance at 6.000) routinely get the shaft…
Manfred and Clark deserve each other.
There’s ONE big difference between MLB and the other major pro sports that makes the percentage of revenues argument a poor one:
Drastically, and I mean vastly, higher non-payroll costs.
The other sports don’t support huge talent pools in minor leagues for payroll.
They don’t have giant analytics departments.
They don’t have to scout tens of thousands of highschool, prep, and amateur players every year.
They don’t fund international presences of teams, scouts, etc.
I could go on, but you get the picture… and those are BIG costs.
It’s crazy to me how in this day and age people who are serious fans still look at HRs and BA to judge a player and disdain OBP cuz “BBs don’t lead to runs like swinging the bat does”. Look into it. Literally every paid analyst or scout would agree that OBP is important because when you walk you are getting on base, moving the line and AVOIDING OUTS! Just know when you say that “”players should just swing” and “putting the ball in play is more important than walking” that you are disagreeing with every expert there is.
Don’t disagree with you but if walks are so important than why are strikeouts up with almost every player around both leagues these days as 20+ homers seem to be much more important to players than walks……guys that hit get paid, while the roster fillers…you know the 20-24 man players are the ones who value the walk much more because that’s all they offer…..Moneyball was a long time ago and todays game seems to revere hard hit ball rates, exit velocity, launch angle, and home tun distance……much much more than how many times do you walk every nine innings!
Just saying!
It’s not at all that 20 homers are more important than walks (really walk rate). No one believes this. No one says this. Strike outs are up because players are taking more pitches, for one reason. They take more pitches to wait for the perfect pitch to launch and to otherwise try and walk. More walks can actually lead to more strikeouts as players are willing to go deeper into the count. Players today worry about launch angle etc, in ADDITION to walking, not at its expense. Plus, it’s easier to teach a professional player a bit of an uppercut than it is to transform someone into the type of talent with a great eye at the plate. In any case, the importance of walks and the importance of, say, hard hit balls or launch angle and the preponderance of Ks don’t contradict or cancel each other out.
So nobody needs a 25/80 HR/RBI bat in their lineup? Hide upgrade for the many teams in LF and not that expensive….just wow….
Huge upgrade*
Some people think he could replace Schwarber in Chicago.
Ugh. RBIs are a TEAM stat and not a reflection on the player. So a 25 HR player? That’s the only useful info there. This player is impossible to evaluate until you add more info. Fielding, doubles, and yes, OBP. It’s easy enough to look up a player’s OBP+ on baseball reference. It’s a quick, if oversimplified way to compare players beyond what an average kid would do in 1980. What’s “wow” is that in the year 2020 there are still fans that crap on analytics while refusing to even briefly examine them. If you wanna shake your head at new, more complicated ideas, at least maybe try and understand the basics of them first.
@Cosmo2….I completely understand that Rosario is better than half of the LF’s in the league….how’s that for me understanding lol
Secondly I have been following baseball since 1977….and I have been a fantasy commissioner since 1984….over 35 years I have been analyzing stats etc so don’t lecture me boi….
Thirdly there are several teams that could have used his bat in the lineup….he is better than the Cubs Schwarber and anyone the Giants put out in LF and about 10-15 other teams LF options….listing his HR and RBI totals is just me saying that production could be used by many teams….without the advanced metrics
Lastly….I guess an above average LF making 10-12 million is not worthy in your eyes….huge upgrade in LF for many teams even with his shortcomings but u don’t see that I guess….
They are banking ther Kirilloff and Larnich pick up his production right away but that won’t happen….bank on it
If you’re gonna talk baseball while ignoring and disagreeing with all modern experts and continually put forth uninformed opinions without backing them up then, yea, you might get lectured, “boi.”
@Cosmo2….again I am a modern expert so yeah there’s that….
Rosario could start in LF for half the teams in the MLB….his defense isn’t great but his bat is solid snd a lot if teams could use his bat is all I’m saying….he would be the Giants 2nd best player behind Yaz….
The fact that he was non-tendered and not picked up on waivers doesn’t reveal his value….u must think if he is designated he sucks….well Kris Bryant is in the same boat….and he doesn’t suck….
Some teams just want to move on from a player especially if they have young talent that can take over at a cheaper price….
The thing I said wow about wasn’t the Twins non-tendering him….it was the fact that he went unclaimed like no team can use his bat? Really? At a decent value too….
I’m simply saying he is better than half of the LF’s in the MLB….so yes teams could have used him but I guess they didn’t want to take the chance on him at 10-12 million so they pass on him and then scoop him up at a cheaper price….Bryant may be in the same boat though neither player sucks….
Fantasy expertise is fun.
He’s only decent value to the teams that are handcuffed with a large contract in LF already and the teams with no LF and no internal options worth a try.
Half the teams use players at 1M or less as their LF.
Some teams convert infielders to LF.
Not a lot of teams value the spot enough to invest large amounts.
And possible no DH in NL might move a couple back into the LF pool.
Hands tied with an expensive LF:
LAA- Upton, SD- Myers, PHI- McCutchen, LAD- Pollock, MIL- Yelich, MIA- Dickerson, ARI- Peralta, CIN- Akiyama.
Sure Rosario is better than some of these guys, but their teams can’t fit Rosario without creating their own logjam or taking a large money hit.
Already have decent to great value from LF:
WAS- Soto, HOU- Tucker, NYM- McNeil, CWS- Jimenez, TB- Meadows, TOR- Gurriel, STL- O’Neill, BOS- Verdugo, BAL- Mountcastle, PIT- Reynolds, COL- Tapia..
Benintendi likely shifts Verdugo, and Mancini likely shifts Mountcastle, same result for Rosario though.
For the price, Pitt isn’t likely to give up on Reynolds yet.
Some of these teams should invest and upgrade their ‘decent value’, but they have histories that suggest they won’t.
DET, CLE, OAK, SEA, TEX, ATL, CHC, SD, SF, MIN, NYY with some of these teams likely to choose internal pre-arb (cheap) options, others willing to try Brantley or even Ozuna in LF, maybe bringing back Gardner before looking Rosario’s way. Profar or Grossman may be more appealing price wise. Teams shouldn’t be choosing based on price, but some of them do. I”m guessing more than one team has Brantley penciled in and his choice will lead to a bit of musical chairs.
Rosario best bet is to campaign for the NL to have a DH to open up his path a bit more. Half the teams could use him at that point. For now, it’s probably closer to a quarter with a handful of teams choosing the cheaper path.
@filthyrich….that’s exactly what I was saying….in a different way lol….
Yes Rosario could slot into LF got many teams and it would be an upgrade is all I was saying but yes I understand your point and Cosmo2’s point….
LF isn’t a priority position…I mean that is where your worst fielder usually is….u need speed in CF and a cannon arm in RF….but in LF as long as the guy is a decent fielder that’s all that matters….he doesn’t need a gold glove to be valuable….sure it’s nice to have but it’s more of an offensive position and that is what u get with Rosario who would be the 2nd best player on the Giants immediately….
There are teams out there that could have used his bat in their lineup is what I was saying….he isn’t exactly expensive….but I get why the Twins would non-tender him because they have Kirilloff and Larnach waiting plus Kepler already in the lineup….
I was surprised he went unclaimed however….but it wouldn’t be the first time a solid player was non-tendered and subsequently unclaimed….I guess teams are trying to save money by slitting in a
Teams are trying to save money by playing 4th OF’s in their LF spot….or some teams are putting IF’s in LF….
Anything to save money I guess but I said “wow” because he isn’t that expensive and he would upgrade over half of the lineups in the MLB right away….
Kris Bryant may go unclaimed as well and again I may say “wow” but I do understand the financial aspect of it but I also know he upgrades pretty much every lineup in the MLB….but his salary is much higher than Rosario so that would be why he may go unclaimed….
Cubs intend to tender Bryant a contract.
Still a wow that Rosario went unclaimed. Agreed.
And Hand.
But looking at the positions and the dollars, it makes cents.
Going to be tough for corners and relievers is my feeling.
@filthyrich….I see what u did there….
“It makes cents” lol
Yeah saving money during these times is important I get that but Rosario isn’t that expensive so that’s why I said “wow”
At u get that but Cosmo2 couldn’t grasp the fact that I was surprised a 2-3 WAR player went unclaimed when teams have middle infielders manning LF….lol
Meant at least u get it*
Like a bull to red, a post with mention of RBI can really trigger some users.
Put Rosario as PIT LF and he suddenly loses a lot of value if RBI is his big selling point. Little bit chicken vs egg, maybe he sparks the Pirates offense a bit if he’s in there.
A 25HR/80RBI player is not needed if named Yasiel.
Or if projected to earn over $10m.
Apparently.
I want the guy that sees a lot of pitches and has a high baseball IQ if I’m spending anything over $5m (in my dreams where I’m king of baseball and they let me run a team)
If you consider that Rosario’s offense hovers around the league average mark, then yes, he technically IS better then half the league.
Can teams use more HRs and RBIs? Sure, but those totals that they put up are not guaranteed totals. Rosario could hit 30 homeruns that drive in 30 RBIs or 100 RBIs, but it’s value is still 30 unless I’m blind and he hit 100 homeruns.
Extra base hits are a different story, because Rosario only needs his ability to barrel and launch the ball to be around league average to tally those up. This is because his ability to avoid striking out, though I’d reckon doing so would bring his walk rates back down.
Even so, Rosario’s terrible defense brings his overall value right back to hovering above or below league average. Say what you will about Statcast, but it’s defensive metrics are excellent. It can estimate player reaction times from the moment the ball hits the bat, to how quickly they get to the ball, and how well the track and route the ball. Rosario did post better numbers in that regard, but only so that he was really bad instead of terrible.
I guess my conclusion and overall point is that Eddie Rosario is NOT worth 10-12 million a year. The fact that no team wanted to claim him for that much might speak of financial scrutiny, but I have no doubts that it also because no team wants to tender that much money to a league average player. The highest amount of money I see him offered is 5.5M, though I find it likely he gets between 2M to 4M.
Even with all that said, I part with the following words: to each their own.
Fair value would be closer to your 5 million per year offer….maybe even 6 million if it’s the right fit….
I wasn’t surprised he was non tendered but I was surprised he wasn’t claimed by a team in need of a solid bat….though with COVID and the short season some teams are finding ways to cut payroll….I get that but I was surprised a bit originally
It happens though I mean he isn’t the best player ever to go unclaimed….
Good points filthy and Jacob…..good to have other inputs into a conversation without trash talk from guys like Cosmo2….I’ve been an avid follower of baseball for over 35 years….from playing it to running fantasy leagues….I can tell u that George Foster hit 52 HRs in 1977 and that Jim Rice hit 46 HRs that same year to lead their leagues in HRs without even looking it up….I can also tell u that the first player ever to have 15 Doubles 15 Triples 15 HRs and 15 SB’s twice in a season was Juan Samuel….many players like Andy Van Slyke have done this 1 time but Juan Samuel was the first to do it twice….I don’t even have to look it up….I have been into stats as long as done if these users have been alive or longer….I don’t need the snide comments like I don’t know what I am talking about….
So I appreciate your input filthy and Jacob….thumbs up guys….
Real playing is infinite times cooler than any fantasy expertise. As much as I enjoy fantasy baseball. Nothing beats playing.
Even if you’re a bunting, right fielding lefty mop up guy like me.
Totally joking but I am curious about your short term memory? The long term seems to be holding up well.
Playing fantasy when Rickey was a terror on the paths, that would’ve been nice.
I got into it around Ichiro.
Remember a lot of the Maddux, Pedro, RJ stats more than I do the past few blurry years. And I remember things about players that qualify as C (Craig Wilson lol), or multi position players (when it was more rare-Figgins!) from years past a lot more than I can recall who I ended last year with in my auction league.
Any baseball nerd is good in my books. Even the Yanks and Red Sox fans hahah.
Go Jays.
I think Rosario would get multi year if the rate is that low. He’s not yet 30.
One year at $7-8m or 2 years at $13-14m is my feeling. Assuming NL gets DH to ease up his competition a bit.
@filthyrich….yeah I played baseball for about 12-13 yrs mostly as a pitcher and a 3B as I have a good arm….but I was also running fantasy leagues for baseball and football at the age of 14-15 in 1984….as I am now 51 years old….born in 1969….
The street I grew up on I had several neighbor kids in my age group and while other kids our age were out getting into trouble we were doing fantasy leagues and we didn’t have computers in 1984 so I was using the newspaper to calculate stats for every team in my league roughly 8 team leagues using rotisserie style scoring before fantasy even got popular….football was easy as my family went on vacation for 1-2 weeks to visit family on the east coast every year and if I got behind on stats it was easy to catch up as they play weekly….but to go on vacation during baseball season was hard because I had to round up 1-2 weeks of newspapers to catch up….I was the commissioner because again we didn’t have computers back then so we used my baseball cards to draft from and each of my friends would take their team home with them after the draft and since we lived on the same block we would hang out at one of our houses and bring the cards with us and do winter meetings….lol
Literally sit at a table and do trade talks while other 14-15 yr olds were out smoking weed and smoking cigarettes etc or getting drunk….I grew up a sports nerd….mostly baseball and football but I was into hockey and basketball too for a while to the point that I could name every NBA teams starting 5 and every NHL teams 1st line and starting goalie but as I got older I stopped following basketball and hockey to that extent….
I still follow baseball and football that way though….mostly for fantasy purposes….but yeah I’m a baseball nerd through and through and I can name off stats from 30-35 yrs ago without looking them up….it’s crazy
I have roughly 8,000 baseball cards and 4,000 football cards so that was the only way to keep track of which players each team drafted back in the day….and yeah I had to deep dive into stats growing up at age 14-15 so I guess I was a bit on the nerdy side just not into D&D but sports instead while also playing baseball….the good old days I tell u….
@filthyrich….back when I first started doing rotisserie baseball….guys like Wiggins and Vince Coleman and Henderson and Willie Wilson were the speed demons and when they led the league in SB’s back then it wasn’t 45-50….it was 75-80 plus….
Dual threat players like Andy Van Slyke and Juan Samuel were important too as they helped u in multiple categories….it was a blast growing up but hard to be a fantasy commissioner back then without computers….running leagues now is easy
Awesome.
Didn’t have a large enough town/neighbourhood to have enough baseball nerd friends to set up anything like that.
Study cards (and pogs for a bit hahahah) did the trick. Newspaper generally had a hockey pool. Then the internet happened.
Still playing overhand wood bat baseball at 37 years old, and probably better now than when I was a teen. Not that I’m great now. Facing some college kids and I can hit it out of the infield (when the stars align hahaha), as well as strike some of them out with the slow Moyer stuff. Will try to play as long as I can breathe!
April – June with no baseball this year was strange. Watched baseball movies hahahaha. Rookie of the Year directed by Daniel Stern. GEM! And Mr. Baseball- underrated. Among others.
@filthyrich….awesome man to be playing baseball still in your late 30s….I played little league from 8-15 years old then played in HS as well but after that I joined the military and was a cop in the USAF….hence the user name USAFCOP….mostly referred to as Security Forces now or SECFOR….
After 13 yrs of being in the military I came back to my home town in California and joined a men’s adult baseball league at the age of 33 years old….it’s a baseball league not a softball league and I pitched for 2 years there as well….so I understand the game and I understand the financial aspects of the game as well….
In the league I was in we had Lance Blankenship for a couple years but he wasn’t on my team….we also had a guy go pro in the Cubs farm system playing in the league I was in….it was a 25-35 year old league so me being on the older side of that at 33….I wasn’t expecting to go pro especially after being out of baseball for 13 years while in the military….though I did play softball in the USAF against the Navy and the Marines…..inter-mural league softball….but it’s not the same as hardball as I was a pitcher by trade so softball takes my position out of the equation so I played 3B in softball….
I was playing just to have fun not thinking I would go pro at 33….lol
I still throw in the low 80’s even at 51….at least at the fair grounds where I guess my pitch speed….lmao
One of my specialities though is that I can name every MLB teams AAA and AA affiliate without looking them up….
Say u ask me the Brewers AAA team I would tell u it’s the San Antonio Missions (formerly the Padres AA affiliate) and the Brewers AA team is the Biloxi Shuckers (formerly they had the Huntsville Stars)
I can do this with every MLB team….
The carousel is crazy too so it’s hard to keep up with….
For instance….the Nationals AAA team is the Fresno Grizzlies (who were the Giants and the Astros AAA team previously)
The Nationals AAA team before Fresno was the Syracuse Chiefs who are now the Mets AAA team the Syracuse Mets….as the Mets lost their AAA team the LV 51’s who became the A’s AAA team the LV Aviators….
The A’s had the Nashville Sounds previously as did the Brewers before that….but now Nashville Sounds is the Rangers AAA team….who had the Round Rock Express before the Astros purchased them….the carousel goes on and on….but I can name them all….even the previous ones before the current ones so there’s that information that I will never need but it’s stuck in my head….
@usafcop I’m personally not a fantasy league guy, but thank you for sharing your history with it as well as your personal connection baseball, even if the intended recipient wasn’t me.
Even if all of us have different points of view, be it stats or otherwise, we all still share a connection with baseball. Just another reason
@Jacob Cook….thank u Jacob….I love major league sports in general and follow baseball avidly….I mean I’m all up in it….lol
Mainly a baseball and football guy and I follow both closely….
I love hearing other baseball minds opinions….so thank u for your input as well….
Still waiting for Wisler to latch on a team and stick there as a solid arm.
Rosario, I understood. Non-tendering Wisler is a total and complete head scratcher though. WTF???
I find it strange that this article doesn’t mention Rosario’s iron glove and how that factored into the Twins decision to put him on outright waivers.
Well, a team like the Marlins would be interested in him for more than one year. At least until Bleday and the kid are ready
Jesus Sanchez, I believe, will never be as good as Rosario is now
@Steve….that’s all I was saying….I mean he has a good bat and could boost almost any teams lineup immediately….he would go straight to the middle of the Giants and Marlins lineup for instance….good post Steve….