The Braves had interest in Trevor Rosenthal before the reliever signed with the A’s, MLB Network’s Jon Heyman writes (Twitter link). With Rosenthal now off the market, Atlanta is still looking for right-handed relief help, and Heyman wonders if the Braves could turn to a familiar face in Shane Greene. Apart from some consideration from the Twins earlier this month, there hasn’t been much buzz about Greene this offseason, despite his 2.39 ERA over 90 1/3 innings since the start of the 2019 season. Greene doesn’t have a big fastball and his peripherals haven’t been overly impressive, however, which could explain why he still available heading into his age-32 season. Atlanta did recently add veteran righty Nate Jones to their bullpen mix on a minor league deal.
Some more notes from around baseball…
- Most players make changes in the wake of a rough season, but Shohei Ohtani faced the increased challenge of overhauling himself as both a hitter and a pitcher after a 2020 campaign the Angels star called “pathetic.” Ohtani’s offseason endeavors included a trip to Driveline Baseball, Fabian Ardaya of The Athletic reports, and Ohtani and his agent Nez Balelo told reporters that the pitcher/DH has adopted a new training regiment, a new diet, and made changes to his swing. Ohtani’s training has been helped by the fact that he is now recovered from a flexor strain that limited him to 1 2/3 innings as a pitcher in 2020, which came after not pitching at all in 2019 due to Tommy John surgery.
- Robbie Ray’s foray into the open market didn’t last long, as the southpaw re-signed with the Blue Jays shortly after the free agent period opened in early November. This gave Ray more time to spend with Jays coaches on trying to correct his form following a mediocre 2020 season, Ray told reporters (including The Toronto Star’s Gregor Chisholm). Ray made changes to his arm slot prior to the 2020 season, which may have led to such disastrous results as a 6.62 ERA and 45 walks over just 51 2/3 innings with the Diamondbacks and Blue Jays.
- The Pirates are still in the early stages of a rebuild, and GM Ben Cherington gave an outline of the team’s basic plan to Jason Mackey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and other reporters. Modeled after how other clubs have undergone rebuilds, Cherington broke it down into three steps: talent accumulation, developing that talent, and then adding to that talent base through trades and free agency. The general manager also made it clear that the Bucs are still in the first step, as “whatever improvement we’ve seen in our overall organizational talent — and I think we have seen some improvements in the last year — it’s not enough. We’ve got to keep going. We’ve got to be one of the stronger organizations just in terms of overall talent to give ourselves the best chance to win.”
Ohtani (if healthy) will be top 5 in MVP voting this year.
Ohtani is overrated and overhyped. He will never be a top 5 MVP candidate. He will be back in Japan when his current deal runs out.
Yes, I agree Joe. The problem in large part was that he was donned the king of baseball before he stepped foot in MLB (it happens every time with media – prospects, international signings, etc). But now he’s further behind and people still buy into his success story as a two-way player, and the best one to set foot in MLB. For his sake and the team’s, they should make him a SP or LF/DH, but not both.
Babe Ruth will always be the best 2-way player to ever set foot in MLB. I think it speaks volumes of Ohtani’s ego when he thought he could just sign with an MLB team and do what the greatest player to ever play wasn’t able to do. He should have picked one or the other. Imagine the game film alone he has to watch while preparing for opponents.
Babe Ruth is overrated and overhyped. He never had to play against the best baseball players in the country. Of course he dominated. Obviously, Ohtani is not the next Babe Ruth. He didn’t sign with the yankees. So maybe he’s just the first Ohtani and that’s OK. The first Ichiro was pretty special. Just let this play out and enjoy watching him when he plays. Get over yourselves.
@whyhayzee-sounds like your confused about Ruth and Ohtani? It should be the other way around. Ohtani is overrated and overhyped. He will NEVER be Babe Ruth. Ruth is regarded as one of the BEST baseball players ever. It’s disrespectful to even mention Ruth and Ohtani in the same sentence so stop being delusional and do your homework.
I agree Clipper. I think we will know fairly early if he can live up to his hype. I think he’s a talented pitcher and a talented hitter. He can probably play decent defense somewhere like right field or 1B too. If he’s not back to his 2018 form on the mound and at the plate by the break, I think the Angels should decide on one path for him. We need pitching first so that would be my choice. Hopefully he can do both and silence the critics…including me.
As far as overhyped, the same thing is happening with Adell. He was to be the next Mike Trout. He debuted last year and embarrassed himself in the field and at the plate. We’ll see if he can live up to it all after a year in Salt Lake.
Whyhayzee made a good point, Ruth never face the best competition, therefore it is valid to question the claim that he is best of all time, simply sidestepping that point to attack ohtani weakness whatever argument you may have. Let the guy play, that’s the only way we will see whether it’s all just a short lived novelty act or start of interesting and entertaining career. There is no need to label him as anything right now. You don’t want to be like certain other posters on here that seem to take special enjoyment in belittling prospects who didn’t quite live up to the unrealistic expectations often placed on them. Just watch and enjoy.
Ruth played the best competition available and in the offseason he would barnstorm and play anyone he could.
MLB recognizes the Negro Leagues of 1920 to 1948 as Major Leagues, and Ruth pitched before those years..
Finally, If MLB and the Negro Leagues integrated in 1920, there would have been a great talent upgrade to the combined league, but the assumption that Babe Ruth would falter to the point of being an average player is laughable. In the teens, his pitching stats were comparable to Walter Johnson and when he hit, he out homered whole teams.
whynot18 mins ago
Whyhayzee made a good point, Ruth never face the best competition,
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He actually did. When Ruth played, there were no other sports to make real money at. Every good athlete played BB. Now, BB employs African-Americans & Latinos, but they are only drawing probably less than 25% of the best athletes, as opposed to probably close to 100% of the best athletes.
Prov356: I am concerned that they will ruin Jasson Dominguez before he even plays one game professionally for the same reason. Comparing him to Trout? Seriously? He was 17! And then saying he’s a blend of Trout & Mantle? Wow, talk about impossible standards.
Mantle spoke in an interview how much it adversely affected him that his first manager said he was DiMaggio, Ruth, and Gehrig all in one. And that was after he made it.
I know it’s going to happen, but maybe some realistic comps? Right now they’re timing if Dominguez eats a bowl of cereal faster than Trout at the same age.
No one is saying “Ruth would falter to the point of being an average player” all I’m saying is that it is valid to question his spot as the best player given that he did not compete against the top competition on a daily basis.
This argument that Babe Ruth “didn’t face the best competition” is asinine. He played Major League Baseball, where else was there better competition?
He had a CAREER OPS+ of 206. 106% better than his average peers. Faulting the guy for living 100 years ago is absurd. His domination of everyone else in the league is very telling on how good he was at baseball, even Trout doesn’t dominate the league on this scale.
Are you purposely overlooking the negro league players? The fact he didn’t get to face the best of his contemporary players on a daily basis makes it valid to question his status as the best player ever. No one is trying to disparage the guy just putting things into context
Whynot: Your point is valid, but they’re pointing out he faced the best available in his league. For example, MLB isn’t currently facing the best of Korean or Japanese baseball players on a regular basis, arguably.
Moreover, once you go outside of his own league’s competition, e.g., Negro League, the argument in itself is nullified, because it was separate and apart from MLB. In fact the records weren’t even recognized by MLB until just recently as you well know.
One example listed above is relevant: other sports have better athletes, arguably, that may have been outstanding baseball players and created tougher competition, yet Ohtani will never face them. Collegiate baseball has some incredible baseball players that, for one reason or another, will never go to MLB and he will never face them.
It is an argument that when taken to its extreme is self-defeating. We can only measure greatness in the context in which players played. Babe Ruth is inarguably the greatest player ever to play Major League Baseball, by many objective standards.
It is misleading to say he played the best competition available. That’s true except Latin and black players didn’t play in the major leagues. It’s not as if, magically, in 1920 a bunch of good black players showed up and they started the Negro Leagues. Before and after that point, some of the best players of the time were barred from playing.
Another point of contention is that baseball athletes today train more specifically and are more physically imposing. By many accounts, he lacked a lot of self-control which is necessary now to succeed. I don’t pretend to know how Ruth would do (like you seem to), but I don’t think he would be Mike Trout in the box and 2020 Bieber on the mound. That is “laughable.”
Let’s all remember that players don’t technically face other players. That’s just for wins and losses. Players, i.e. batters, face pitchers . How many great black pitchers were there in the 20s and 30s ? It’s interesting that there’s only two Hall of Fame Black pitchers that I know of since the beginning of integration (1950s): Don Newcombe and Satchel Paige. Paige would have faced Ruth. Supposedly they faced each other while barnstorming but it doesn’t appear that they faced each other many times. I never heard about anyone else from the 20s and 30s. Seems like it was mostly great hitters. Would have to do more research on this but please name some names.
When one says” the greatest player ever” I think that it is in context to the times that he played.
Ruth did not get to hit against all the best pitchers.He also did not get to hit against all of the worst pitchers.Ruth was so far in front of all batters as far as hitting for power in the ML which clearly was easily the dominant league that it did not matter that all players were not included in the ML.
The Negro leagues probably had 10% of the best players in the country,because they fit about 10% of the population.
Of course athletes are much better today than they were 100 years ago.That does not mean that those old time players such as Cobb or Hornsby would hit .400 now.But in their time they were great,and if they were born 30 years ago,no doubt that they would be some of the greatest today.
LOL. What a clown take and borderline racist. Have you seen what a physical beast he is? His workouts? His athleticism.
No, I’m not overlooking the Negro leagues any more than people now overlook the Asian leagues, the Mexican league, all of the other athletes that could be baseball stars that play a different sport…
The MLB was more competitive as a whole than the Negro Leagues. It was the top tier of competition, regardless of if it did not include every single one of the top baseball players in the world. The MLB today doesn’t even do that. Babe Ruth was one of the best players of all time based on his relative dominance of the rest of the league, regardless of how different it was in his era. No one dominates the league like he did IN RELATION TO HIS PEERS. That’s how you compare different eras, and there’s a reason Babe Ruth is at the top of so many lists.
he was a law breaking drunkard and a friend of mobs. ohtani is none of that. and he hit home runs when average pitching velocity was less than 90 mph while hitters these days are facing much much better pitchers.
by the way, ruth’s home run totals have been passed by 2 greater hitters.
Ruth spent 90% of his money on wine,women,and song,and wasted the other 10% on food and rent.
He also hit more home runs himself in at least one year than all but one other team did.
I would say that his total was passed by one other great hitter.
The other one you allude to may have had some unusual assistance.
It’s valid to question if he is the best of all-time bc he’s not. Hammering Hank Aaron is better, period.
I met Hank Aaron briefly once and he seemed like a fine gentleman.
With all due respect,though,Chief,you are a ”homa”.
Ruth WAR-182.5,Aaron,143.1 AB 8399 to 12364 HR 714 to 755 Ba .342 to .305. At bats per hr 11.76 to 16.37, or almost 40% better for Ruth
Babe will never be passed as the most prolific home run hitter of all time because he did it in an era where no one else was doing it.In addition,no one will ever come close to those stats.
Not even Hank Aaron.
Ruth was the most dominating player of all time. That’s hard to argue with.
Most people thought Mays was better than Aaron. It’s hard to argue otherwise.
Trout is better than all of them. and 20 years from now someone will be better than Trout.
How many pitchers did Aaron or Mays see that threw 97 MPH with stuff? Zero?
Today’s athletes are better. Put Ruth or Mays or Aaron in today’s game, and they’d figure out a way to be great. Magically transport 1954 Mays into a 2021 baseball game, he’d have trouble keeping up.
Nah. Mays would be Mookie Betts. Mays would have the luxury of wearing a helmet with an ear flap and he’s wear arm guards allowing him to crowd the plate and take away a pitcher’s curve and/or slider. Mays would hold a better bat and drill and livelier baseball. He’d dominate.
Aaron too. And Frank Robinson.
No one ever said that Adell was going to be the next Mike Trout. He has been a disappointment and seems unlikely to live up to his one time status of Angels top prospect. (a dubious distinction, given the poor quality of the Angel’s Farm system), but you’re inflating the expectations that the organization and knowledgeable fans had for him.
Kona – I am not stating Adell will be the next Trout. I am reiterating what I have read in previous articles (pre-2020 season). I do not share that expectation at all. As I stated, his debut was an embarrassment. I have often suggested that we trade him for pitching that can help us now. So. you misread or misrepresented my comment.
I’ think they’d have to adjust. I think you put 1954 Mays i. a 2021 game and he’d be shocked at how hard these guys throw. He’d have to change his game.
But who knows?
Halo-
1.yes
2yes
3maybe,we will see in ten years(you may be a biased observer)
4)Ryan comes to mind,and maybe a couple more,but hardly any
5yes and yes
Your last point is not fair though.These athletes today have so many more advantages than the old timers had that if they were playing today with those advantages they may very well have been as great as they were playing during this time period.Nobody has a time machine to do as you say.
We basically have strong agreement though which is rare on this number of points.
Ryan had two pitches. I think today Ryan would have four.
I think Mays and Aaron and Robinson would be great. But they’d have to be better to be just as good. And with all the advancement,they would be.
Ruth, I don’t know about. He wasn’t exactly known for his work ethic. But if he’d put in the time, he’d be great.
Prov.
I feel almost the same way about Adell today as I did a year ago. I think he’ll be great.
My only pause is his defense, but he’s such a great athlete and he’s so darn coachable, I don’t worry about that either.
Once again I think that your previous post is a balanced post which we do not always see on this site.
Mendoza, you mean you are not going to counter with hyperbole and insults.? Man, just when I thought I had this board figured out.
I agree 11. He is a great talent. I blame the Angels for rushing him to the bigs too soon. He spent such little time in AAA. I think he will be a great player. I suggest him as a trade piece because we need pitching now and he is not ready to contribute now. He could bring us some good arms in my estimation that can be what we need in 2021. Losing him would stink long term, but we have the line up to compete. It’s the rotation and pen that are lacking…still.
I think the Angels front four is very competitive.
The pen is very very suspect. That was an unforced error.
Big question on Adell? Do you trade him when his value is down? His value could skyrocket or crater.
Personally, I’d roll the dice and bet on him.
Halo-I can be quite insulting,even to an extreme,but only to people who insult me or other people first.
As you I’m sure are aware there are many knuckleheads on this site and sometimes a few can be aggressive and downright nasty.Those are the ones that I in return aggressively counter.
A few are smug,and I return the favor.
But many are knowledgeable,sometimes much more so than me,and one can learn a lot if you just read what they say without reading into it and creating things on your own.
For your particular posts,we were in basic agreement,but I think that a forum like this is a good one to view other’s intelligent and knowledgeable posts,and sometimes be able to gentlemanly disagree.
Fortunately,one can figure out who the good posters are fairly quickly.
Ya hear that kids? Take the path of least resistance.
Vizionaire, you are doing the exact thing you can’t do when comparing two different eras, which is saying “bAbE rUtH wOuLd Be BaD nOw.” Ohtani has the benefit of a juiced ball, performance enhancing substances,WAY advanced science and training techniques, access to a better diet, more money than he can possibly spend himself to support a complete devotion to all of that…
Ohtani isn’t even the best in the league NOW. Ruth was about twice as good as the next closest player. Ruth >>>>> Ohtani
How exactly is Ohtani overrated and overhyped? No one really talks about him much.
Either that, or his days as a two-way player are over.
I think the angels should have him focus on pitching full time. They have plenty of guys that can dh. Limited on quality pitchers.
But he’s a better hitter than he is a pitcher based on his major league numbers. They have more of a chance of unlocking star potential (not to mention health) with his bat.
Not even top five in the AL West!
Right, is he even top 5 on the angels lol…
As I called when Ohtani was being shopped around, he will never be a two way player in the big leagues because the health of his throwing arm won’t allow it. However he can be a star position player.
Top 5 MVP is possible, All-Star season is very possible, the talent is definitely there. It all comes back to staying healthy.
When they signed him in 2017 they knew he had a questionable MRI in Japan, still he was dominant at times in 2018 then the arm gave out.
I think he’s long since healed from TJ in 2018, then had the weird COVID-19 spring training start/delay/restart (not good for many MLB players) he rushed back and had the forearm issue last year and was shut down pitching since it was a 60g season.
This off season he’s had time to get stronger, work on mechanics etc and MLB should be able to have a somewhat normal ST and slightly shorter regular season.
I fully expect to see 2018 ROY Ohtani again in 2021, that dude was impressive on the mound (100mph, no-hitter into the 6th, a few games w/10Ks etc) and as a batter (multi HR games, hit for cycle etc)
His age 26,27,28 seasons could be absolutely epic! Can’t wait!!
Oops! **hit for cycle in 2019 not 18.
5ToolMVP: Yep, I think many, including me, agree with you; he has the talent. However, the problem will be getting his talent and health to coincide with the rigorous demands of a major league player – then maintaining that health and performance with some modicum of consistency.
Talent – yes, he’s incredibly talented and he makes any team better by what his potential offers. Success as a two-way player full-time in MLB and stringing together multiple seasons? No, very likely not. Good luck though, everyone will be watching for sure.
Yankees fans couldn’t wait for 2014 Tanaka to return as well. Dominant Japanese pitchers switch to MLB and usually have 1 dominant season then become #2/#3 pitchers. There are plenty of examples. Nomo, Dice-K, Tanaka, Darvish, Maeda, Iwakuma, and Kuroda are good examples. They can usually have a 2nd dominant season by switching leagues. They are very experienced professional pitchers that MLB hitters haven’t seen before. That’s why they are so dominant. Once there is game tape on them and hitters see them a few times they adjust. Expecting Ohtani to repeat his rookie season just isn’t fair. Expecting 25-30 games of 3.60 ERA 3.29 FIP 3.85 Sierra with 9.5k/9 1.6bb/9 and 1.15Whip is realistic (probably still a bit on the high side)
Darkish was a cy young runner up this take is so emotional I’m afraid you’re going to short circuit your laptop.
Some would say he stole the ROY award when at least 2 players played what would be considered full seasons of baseball while he had a whole 360 at bats and 50 innings pitched….but according to Angels fans like you, oh those 50 innings and 360 at bats….EPIC don’t know why teams even showed up to play with him in the lineup!
Top 5 MVP….doubt it very much unless those same weighted averages are brought into play again as in 2018….lets see what an epic season he actually has coming back from TJ the new excuse for this GOAT according to Angels fans!
That’s the hyperbole I’m use to rocky.
Othani had 367 plate appearances and faced 211 batters as a pitchr. That’s 578 events. Andujar had 606.
Ohtani was significantly better in the 578 events than Andujar was in the 606.
He should close for the Angels and DH
@Angelic Visitations- When has Ohtani ever been healthy? Never. So how can you expect that him from him now? I think the Halo’s are a bottom 5 team in the AL West in 2021, but then again I haven’t had an angelic visitation like you have.
Umm, isn’t the entire division bottom 5 in the AL West? As well as top 5?
Top 5 in mvp? Did he really just say that? I want some of what your smoking
In 2018, If Ohtani pitches 100 innings and hits the way he hit, he’s probably top 5 MVP that year. People are crazy if they think he should give one up.
I love how people seem to know what this guy can and can not do.
You sir/madam need to pass around whatever you’re smoking when you say 100 innings, 360 at bats, .280 BA and what ever other analytics you can muster should put him in top 5 MVP!
When he got hurt his OPS was over 900 and his was ERA 3.1o. Then he missed a month. You just need to learn how to analyze data, but I’ve discovered that very few on this board can.
That was three years ago, Halo11. BTW, I appreciate your comments but try commenting without throwing in the usual insult you always add at the end. It makes you sound like you think your opinion is all that matters. It’s not.
It was one full season ago. The point is the talent is there. There are not a lot of players that can have an OPS of over 900 and there are not a lot of pitchers who can pitch like him.
He absolutely can be a top five MVP player. At this stage it’s nuts for anyone to say he should give either up. He’s three years in.
I have so idea why anyone is saying the Angels or Ohtani shouldn’t try.
I think he’s going to be successful. That’s an opinion. I think He was on his way to a top five MVP vote, that’s a lot more than an opinion.
You’re under appreciates the cumulative WAR effect of a a very good pitcher and good hitter, he certainly can be a top 5 guy.
that would require him to become effectively all star level with both pitching and hitting, which i think woulf be hard to do one year after 2020.
Boy, what a fun discussion. I’m not “bashing” Ruth. But it’s a fact that he did not play against ALL of the most talented baseball players. It’s a fairly straightforward statistical concept known as the central limit theorem. If you combined the two distributions of the major leagues and the negro leagues and further, if you took the upper half of each distribution and combined them into one league, you would have less variation in the resulting statistics. I will go as far as to say that both leagues’ very best players would have less spectacular results. No .400 hitters since integration would be an example of this principle. So Ty Cobb, Roger Hornsby, Cy Young, Babe Ruth, all great players would not have had the same results. It doesn’t make them less great. But yes, their statistics are overrated and overhyped.
Give it a rest already!
Serious question, Are you asking him to stop pointing out that segregation was bad and that the #s should be discounted because the Philly A’s #2 pitcher also was a plumber?
And he was all star level at both until he got hurt. All people have to do is click on Ohtani and pull up his game logs. But they would rather comment than research.
He’s a generational player but we have to see how it works out. He’s shown signs of amazing talent. That is beyond dispute. Or you know nothing. That said, he has to get healthy and start playing regularly. Then we get to decide. Anything else is silly. Bo Jackson might have been mind boggling if he hadn’t played football, too. Or not. We’ll never know. But he sure was fun to watch when he played baseball. Give it time.
Bo Jackson was not a great baseball player. His best OPS was 866. Ohtani was 925. Just saying.
I think the Pirates had one of their best off seasons in quite some time. Most of the prospects they got back were really underrrated. Miguel Yajure was recently ranked as the 116th best prospect in baseball by FanGraphs, Hudson Head had first round talent, has 5-tool potential yet slid to the third round because he was committed to playing football in high school and Eddy Yean ranks as one of their top 10 organizational prospects by MLB Pipeline. That’s only the headliners of the Bell, Musgrove and Taillon trades. They also got back a handful of solid prospects like Endy Rodriguez, Canaan Smith-Njigba, Roasny Contreras, Omar Cruz and David Bednar. The Rule 5 draft also seemed like a big success. They picked Jose Soriano with their selection then traded for Luis Oviedo. Oviedo, I think, could be a really good reliever. His stuff would play up out of the pen.
Plus one of the biggest developments this off season was Quinn Priester. According to multiple sources, he looked fantastic in instructionals and MLB Pipeline said that he could be the best pitching prospect in all of baseball in a year or two. He jumpped from unranked at the end of 2020 to 54th by Pipeline.
That’s all a lot of young talent, added onto guys already in the organizational like Oneil Cruz, Ke’Bryan Hayes, Liover Peguero, Brennan Malone, Travis Swaggerty, Tahnaj Thomas, Cody Bolton, Nick Gonzales, and Carmen Mlodzinski. I really like what Ben Cherington has done so far. It’s refreshing after sitting with no direction for so many years under Neal Huntington.
There are probably only a handful of executives I would rather have running a complete top-to-bottom overhaul of an organization than Cherington. He had a major impact on the Red Sox championships as well as re-stocking a depleted Blue Jays farm system from 2015 until leaving for Pittsburgh.
@Nego Boston did him wrong. He’ll build a serious mountain of top prospects for the Pirates that’s for sure. The Red Sox never really gave him the chance to finish what he started instead opting to allow Dombrowski to swoop in and drain the system and get credit for bringing a title.
The Panda signing got him fired, but he is very good at building a minors with talent and the Sox did win a world title with several players he helped acquire.
badco442 hours ago
The Panda signing got him fired, but he is very good at building a minors with talent and the Sox did win a world title with several players he helped acquire.
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He handled the draft from 2012-2015-4 years. Besides Benintendi, name me one other player he drafted in 4 years? And he had 7 1st rounders, including two #7 overall picks.
Not beating on the guy, but he was awful at acquiring minor league talent.
That’s absolutely right. Pittsburgh will have a team to root for come 2025-2030
Not with this Ownership
NH had direction,they just did not have the philosophy of breaking down the club for minor league prospects.He did this when he was first hired but it did not get him very far.They traded for ML ready or near ready players.BC had to go this route and elected to get high ceiling very young players as he had no choice since the Pirates dropped to such a low level in the past 1 1/2 years.
What I mean by no direction is those kinds of trades. Those trades for major league ready players didn’t move the needle. The most egregious thing he did was the 2018 trade deadline going after Chris Archer and Keone Kela and giving up a whole bunch of good prospects and essentially banking on an 11 game winning streak. The worst part about it was that it was after they traded Cole and McCutchen during the off season prior. Chose a direction. You can’t make moves like trading Cole and Cutch when all that changed your mind was a really good 2 weeks of play.
MLB- Their philosophy was to try to compete for a wild card every year.
The Cutch trade returned a player who was within three weeks of being the first rookie ever to lead the NL in batting average.
The Cole trade had to be done,maybe not then,but ultimately as they were never going to sign him.
He took a big chance with the Archer trade,and it did not work out.He was trying to compete after that 11 game win streak like you said.The Kela trade was a good one but they ended up not needing him because they went downhill quickly and he was hurt much of the time.
The problem with the NH regime was they never quite established an excellent scouting and teaching system which is what they need to compete as a small market team.
@Mendoza How did the Cole trade “have” to be done? Arguably, they’d be better off if they hadn’t traded him then. With Cole in the 2018 rotation, NH might not have traded for Chris Archer and if his 2018 performance in PIttsburgh was even close to what it was in Houston, then that increase in performance would probably have been enough to offset him losing a year of control as far as his trade value goes.
@mlb1225 Lack of direction seemed to be a recurring theme for NH. Like at the 2016 deadline when he traded Mark Melancon, a clear win-later move, but also traded for Ivan Nova, a clear win-now move.
NH had the Hamlet syndrome for sure. You have to pick a direction and stick with it. Same as SF in 2019. They could’ve rebuilt their farm simply by trading Bumgarner, Smith, Samardijza, and Dyson, and maybe had a chance to trade a couple of expensive players without having to eat 100% of their salary.
Jim-Melancon had to be traded when he was.NH got a pitcher who quickly became one of the top three best ML closers for him.
The Pirates philosophy was to trade the top players who they,and everyone knew,they could not re sign,for near ML players,rather than letting them go for nothing.In this manner they thought that they would maintain a decent team and compete for a wild card.
He got Nova for next to nothing and he was a good bottom of the rotation pitcher for them for several years.His career was resurrected by Ray Searage.
They lost not one but two years of Cole.The only question becomes should NH have waited 1/2 or one year to trade him.But with pitchers often getting hurt,he did not want to take the chance and end up getting nothing for him.GMs are paid to make those type of decisions.
In 2018 they actually had a decent team with Taillon and Polanco uninjured.NH took the chance with the Archer and Kela trades to try to put them over the top
For Cole,they got a good pitcher to replace him,plus a third baseman with some promise,which they did not have.They may have gotten more if they would have kept him longer,but that deal I do not doubt was the best that he could get at that time.Cole had had two mediocre years and would have enjoyed playing elsewhere.
@Mendoza hold up! How did they “have” to trade Mark Melancon? What exactly is it that would have happened if they hadn’t traded Mark Melancon? They would have missed out on POS Felipe Vazquez, had a shutdown closer on their team for a longshot but not non-existent Wild Card push and then could have stuck Melancon with a QO and got back a draft pick for 2017? Doesn’t sound like the worst outcome to me.
“In this manner they thought that they would maintain a decent team and compete for a wild card.”
Not sure how trading the best closer in the NL that year is going to help them compete for a Wild Card.
“He got Nova for next to nothing and he was a good bottom of the rotation pitcher for them for several years.His career was resurrected by Ray Searage.”
They only got two months of Nova from the trade. And the only way those two months of Nova would have mattered is if the team was pushing for a Wild Card spot in which case trading Melancon was just plain stupid.
If they hadn’t traded Cole away, he stays at the 2018 trade deadline because they were clearly trying to go for it and Cole being there also fills the need that NH tried to fill with the Archer trade, so they still have Meadows, Glasnow and Baz today.
In the end, you can’t sit on the fence at the deadline. You need to pick a direction. Buy or sell. And you can’t then go back on that because of one random hot/cold streak.
Haha I remember back in 2017 that loser forwhomjoshbelltolls was trying to argue that the Melancon trade made the Pirates immediately better because Vazquez was pitching well and Melancon was injured. As if Mark Melancon wasn’t the statistical best closer in the NL in 2016. And Felipe Vazquez REALLY isn’t a player you want to use hindsight scouting to argue in favor of.
Jim-Josh is one of the best Pirate posters on this site.He is hardly a loser.
Hindsight is always 20 20.No one knew that Rivero/Vasquez was a pos at that time.Only GM Jim had that crystal ball.
Melancon signed with the Giants for $64M and wasted the first couple of years,then through,aging,was still good,but not dominant.
Do you think that the Pirates should have signed him?For $64M.
How many of draft choices eventually make it?Sounds like a mediocre choice to me compared to having one of the top three closers in MLB for two and a half years.
No,they did not HAVE to trade MM,but it was the prudent thing to do.NH saw the promise in Rivero based on a previous game with Washington.He was not a premium closer,at that point,but the deal,which came with Hearn,was too good to pass up.
Your take on Nova is just plain factually incorrect.
NH was tired of getting criticized for not going for it,and that is one of the main reasons that he made the Archer trade.It clearly was a loser,but we will see we how much with the development of the three young players involved.
Quite frankly Jim,you are the only poster who I have seen that did not use hindsight that said that the MM trade was a bad one to make.
“Jim-Josh is one of the best Pirate posters on this site.He is hardly a loser.”
Clearly not if he’s going to unronically say that the Melancon trade made the Pirates immediately better. Of course it didn’t. If it did, the Nationals wouldn’t have dared make that trade. You don’t trade a better reliever with 5 years of control for a worse one who is a free agent in 2 months.
“Melancon signed with the Giants for $64M and wasted the first couple of years,then through,aging,was still good,but not dominant.
Do you think that the Pirates should have signed him?For $64M.”
No, I think they should have kept him at the 2016 TD and then stuck him with the QO.
“How many of draft choices eventually make it?Sounds like a mediocre choice to me compared to having one of the top three closers in MLB for two and a half years.”
I’d take having THE best closer in the National League for a hopeful Wild Card push plus a draft pick over a top three closer in the NL for two and a half non-contending years any day of the week and twice on Sundays. And yeah, not all draft choices make it. That is a risk you take. Just like you also take the risk that the closer you traded for turns out to be a sicko. Among the players the Pirates could have taken with that draft pick are Nate Pearson, Jeter Downs and Luis Campusano.
“No,they did not HAVE to trade MM,but it was the prudent thing to do.”
Only if you thought the Pirates didn’t have a chance at the WC that year.
“NH saw the promise in Rivero based on a previous game with Washington.He was not a premium closer,at that point,but the deal,which came with Hearn,was too good to pass up.”
No it was not too good to pass up. In fact, any GM that thinks they have a realistic shot at the playoffs passes that trade up. You don’t trade an elite closer at the deadline when you are in a playoff race. You just don’t.
“Your take on Nova is just plain factually incorrect.”
It’s completely correct. He was a two-month rental when they traded for him, he did reach FA and he only signed with the Pirates after they offered the most $. Trading for him and signing him were two separate and independent transactions. Like the Dodgers with Rich Hill. Or the Phillies with JT Realmuto. Or the Padres with Jurickson Profar.
“NH was tired of getting criticized for not going for it,and that is one of the main reasons that he made the Archer trade.”
Exactly, he was indecisive. When you pull the plug on your window, you commit to the rebuild. You don’t backpedal the first time your team goes through a hot streak.
“Quite frankly Jim,you are the only poster who I have seen that did not use hindsight that said that the MM trade was a bad one to make.”
Actually, what I think of that trade is that it was a win-later move. Which if that was what NH wanted to do then that is completely fine. But then two days later he traded for Ivan Nova, which was a win-now move. It shows a clear lack of direction, which was exactly mine and mlb1225’s original point.
Jim-I cannot disagree with almost all that you said.You May be right on the Nova deal which after I had responded,I reread what you said and presumed you meant what you had just here stated.I do think that it enabled them to get a look at him with the possible intent to resign him.In that regard it was not just for the year 2016,as it would take that long for Searage to get results.And remember that they gave up virtually nothing for him.
Josh and gozurman were the first two Pirate fans that I noticed when I first started here three and a half years ago and I have always respected their posts as being intelligent and knowledgeable.But you are correct in your statement here if that is what he said.But then again we all make mistakes and they do not make us losers unless they are habitual and we do not admit them.
Based on this post I can see how you would say that NH was inconsistent.But he was consistent in getting rid of short term players for longer term gains,and I think that that philosophy overrode fighting for a chance for a wild card.Maybe he knew that his scouting and development teams were mediocre and thus had disdain for the conditional pick.Maybe he sensed that all of the player losses from 2015 would not enable the Pirates to eventually contend for the wild card in 2016.Maybe he saw the two trades in 2018 as being exactly the opposite of his modus operandi But took the chance because they had been so mediocre for two years.It seems to me that sometimes GM’s,when they have the organizational philosophy of trading those close to free agency,maybe they have to go for the gusto when they can.Who is to say what we would have done in NH’s situation.
I think that this boils down to a difference of opinion once all of these facts have been sorted out.
I do appreciate the lengthy but accurate response.
They didn’t have to “get a look at” Nova first to be able to sign him later. If they didn’t trade for him, didn’t offer him as much $ and he signed elsewhere as a result, that wouldn’t mean the Pirates couldn’t sign him. It would mean they simply chose not to. So yes, the Nova trade WAS only for 2016.
Even if the Pirates did give up virtually nothing to get Nova, unless they were actively trying to shoot for a Wild Card spot in 2016 it just seemed kind of pointless. Like if the Pirates were to trade for, say, Jason Castro or Jonathan Villar at last summer’s deadline.
NH did sometimes demonstrate a willingness to hold onto players who were on expiring contracts. Like say, Francisco Liriano back in 2014 (he did end up re-signing with Pittsburgh but he still made it to FA). Although the Pirates were more of a surefire contender in 2014 than 2016. When you are in the race, losing the player to FA for nothing is a risk you have to take. If the team does manage to make a deep playoff run, or even win a championship, then it simply isn’t true that you “lost the player for nothing.” The endgame is (or at least should be) to bring home some hardware. This is likely what the A’s, a similarly small-market ballclub, thought last offseason when they chose not to trade Marcus Semien even though they knew they were going to lose him in a year. They were in win-now mode and could not replace him in-house so they just kept him.
You say that the player losses from 2015 would not enable the PIrates to contend for a wild card in 2016. If that is indeed the case then the Nova trade was completely pointless.
I don’t know if I would have gone for it in 2016 if I were NH (even if they had beaten the Giants out for the second WC spot they probably don’t make it past Noah Syndergaard in the Wild Card game) but I do know I would never trade for one rental and trade away another. Regardless of the rental I am trading away going for a better return than the one I am bringing in.
You seem to have a fairly strict way that you would have operated then.You would have chose one or the other.
I think that NH was just more flexible.
It really depends upon one’s viewpoint as to rather he was being willy nilly,or going for opportunities when they presented themselves,even if they were longer range than just 2016.
Each person is different.
Yes and how did that work out for him?
I wrote a fairly long response but it was destroyed by pop up ads.I will have to try to redo later.
They are taking the fun out of the website as I have lost responses before.
You can say that NH doesn’t agree with me all you want. But if disagreeing with me blows up in his face, that is a point in my favor, not against it.
Wishing Ohtani well l. He has all the talent in the world. Hope he has a healthy season.
I just joined up here after the site was recommended. I’ve noticed that many threads have Comments Closed. Seems like a bunch of light weights run the site. Not interested in their agenda. KMAGYOYO
Yeah, anything that could be controversial and they shut it down. Too many people are weak and can’t handle opinions/facts they may not like.
He’s 26, chill, the kid is super young and changed leagues.
Why do comment sections exist if the interesting articles have closed comments?
because for better or worse we have become a country that is hyper sensitive to damn near everything and there are enough idiots out there that will bring down a good thread because of there Idiocracy
Because God forbid we share an opinion or fact that might hurt someone’s little feelings
@DTDATL. Definitely agree. I’m not the type to say many things that would hurt too many feelings but do when it calls for it. I just really hate how everything has to be so politically correct. So many things that we “aren’t supposed” to say or “shouldn’t” say. People should be able to say what they believe and not get condemned for it. Not everyone will agree with the things we say, but that should be where debate and discussion comes from. On a lighter note…Braves need to sign Greene NOW. Hope everyone enjoys this season.
Sure. Opinions are fine, but much of what I read doesn’t sound like an opinion and most of what I read is not backed up by data.
He had a 900 OPS and a 3.10 ERA before he got hurt. That’s remarkable. No one has ever seen anything like it.
We’ll find out in the next couple of years if he has to go one way or another, We are not close to that point yet.
i feel for pirates fans bad ownership and no direction and that pisses me off. yes i will admit i don’t like any nlc team other than the cards (there my home hence the hate) but one thing i’ve noticed being a fan of any nlc team is loyalty and pirates ownership isn’t showing the same loyalty back so why should the hard working peps of pit show loyalty to a team that doesn’t care about there product or fans. sorry if i’m a firm believer of if your getting my monies better put something worth buying or don’t expect anyone to buy what your selling
Though you have to look and see there’s finally direction in the club. From 2016-2018, the Pirates just kind of treaded water. 2019 was a big wake up call and the organization is completley different. They fired many of their top front office personel and player development staff along with the ovbisous big trades which have brought in a boatload of talent.
@brodie I think the Pirates finally have something to look forward to. Cherington is loading up and things will get done properly for once. When some of these prospects start to hit, and a few will hit, then they can go out and sign the free agents to compliment the youth. Not all teams can go all willy nilly and just sign everyone they want like the Dodgers and Yankees they have to build the base from within. Look at the Angels as a perfect example of how not to run an organization. When your farm system is non existent for ever, you can’t win.
Can we just safely assume that the Braves were in on every single free agent this off season?
I’m kinda surprised Rosenthal choose Oakland over the Braves. He must have just wanted to stay in California? I mean Bay area, not sweltering humidity everyday in the summer?
It’s a great point and I was equally surprised with ATL being so close with their team to contention. He has to see they’re closer to a ring than the A’s, right?
Choosing Oakland over the Braves is a poor decision. Atlanta has a much better chance to win a WS
Btw – when are the Braves changing their name?
@Mjshof
Who said they’re changing their name, and why should they change their name?
They’re going the less controversial route and changing it to the Atlanta Trumps.
Mjshof, they’ve said they aren’t changing their name after discussing it with actual Indians and not a bunch of white knighting social justice warriors. The name and logo aren’t offensive in the least to anyone that isn’t perpetually offended by everything. The name is a term of endearment and the logo is a simple tool.
@Hippyripper- If Rosenthal was smart he would of chosen the Braves. Everyone including Rosenthal was surprised when Oakland(who claims to have no money) offered him $11 million dollars. I guess It’s always about the money, even if losing is part of the Equation?
I think a lot of it probably had a lot to do with the role he would play. It seems like Smith/Martin/Minter/maybe Matzek would be more likely to close, but that’s just conjecture.
I think a lot of it probably had a lot to do with the role he would play. It seems like Smith/Martin/Minter/maybe Matzek would be more likely to close, but that’s just conjecture.
I think a lot of it probably had a lot to do with the role he would play. It seems like Smith/Martin/Minter/maybe Matzek would be more likely to close, but that’s just conjecture. To be fair, A’s also have a good BP, but maybe not a closer after Hendrik’s departure.
I don’t see why a team doesn’t take a shot at Greene. I get his perpherials aren’t good, but 1 year for $3 million isn’t a huge risk. Braves should bring him back given their deep pen that mostly consists of lefties.
I agree. If Melancon was able to get a major league contract, Greene definitely deserves one too.
Greene does deserve a contract, but I wonder what his asking price is. He’s now the best RP available. He doesn’t have good peripherals, but has had some good stats. He’s about ~4 years younger than Melancon, but, most importantly, Melancon has already made ~63M MORE than Greene in his career, so he’s gotten is payday(s). Greene, I’d imagine, is really trying to hold out for his pay day before the last resort: pillow contract or incentive-laden contract.
So the BlueJays and Ray are saying that Ray is fixed? What happened when he starts walking the bases loaded again? Is it possible that he is just not a very good max effort pitcher anymore?
My son is a huge Blue Jays fan and he likes Ray specifically, so I root for the guy. That said, I don’t see this being a “fix” for him. He may just be best to serve as a BP arm at this stage, I don’t know; but, I don’t think this is simply an arm slot issue.
Clipper I don’t think the Jays view Ray as a BP arm. Certainly the money he was handed suggests he’s a starter, and at this time he is slated to be a starter even if the Jays acquire another starting pitcher.
The Blue Jays are confident they can fix Ray and Matz. A big roll of the dice for a team that wants to contend in the AL East this year.
But I agree with you. It’s more than an arm slot issue with Ray.
You know, I don’t care if Robbie Ray wins the Cy Young award this year, I just don’t think I can take another season of listening to his grunts.
You don’t like grunts. Seeing Mad Max do it is so fun, Stras does it to sometimes
Ohtani was drawing comparisons to Babe Ruth before he even played a major league game. He hasn’t been able to stay on the field long enough to make it as a one-way player. A guy like that with his injury problems needs to play it safe and just DH. What a disappointment.
Braves need to lock Greene down now. Our bullpen was our strength last year. It was solid and deep. As of right now, the bullpen isn’t as good as 2020, but bringing Greene back gets us closer. It’s not that what we have isn’t good, it’s the depth we have compared to last year. And bullpen pitchers are so up and down you can’t bank on what we have to be solid again. Smith Martin Minter Matzek Jackson Tomlin Newcomb Jones Dayton Webb…. idk… Greene would make it deeper and give the Braves flexibility to finally (hopefully) cut or trade Jackson lol
There’s no reason it couldn’t be better than last year. Smith should be at full strength with a spring training and with the additions of Morton/Smyly (reinforcements: Wright, Wilson, Davidson, Muller, etc.) in the rotation, they wouldn’t have to depend so much on the bullpen – which logged the most bullpen IP of any MLB team in 2020. 2020, including the playoffs, allowed them to find roles for Ynoa, Minter, Matzek, even Tomlin. They could have the flexibility to bring in Newcomb, Touki, give more IP to Webb (and Jackson…?), not to mention if they get anything from Nate Jones, Arano (who hasn’t reported yet, Visa issues). Greene would be a nice addition, but he wouldn’t be the closer, so unless he’s ok with a discount, I can’t imagine they view him as anything but a luxury until injuries start happening.
Don’t forget bravesfan, we have a ton of MLB-ready starting pitching that won’t have a spot in the rotation this year when our main guys are healthy. Wright, Muller, Wilson, Davidson, Touki, Newk…some of these guys will likely either have to move to the pen or be moved for pen arms.
nutting wallet says pirates rebuild might take long time due to salary flexibility and profit margin
Why have a comment section if you end up closing comment sections?
They haven’t closed this one down yet, so it must be following the official narrative of our internet overlords. Heaven forbid, we exercise our right to free speech.
It’s a private company, they can do whatever they want with their platform. Sounds like you’re offended.
Braves cut more payroll than they have spent this off-season.. to let Melancon walk for $3mill and not even bring back Greene is ridiculous..
I agree I don’t know What they are doing with the bullpen
Preller should hop on the phone and offer Atlanta Stammen
The Pirates are still in the early stages of a rebuild, yeah since like 1993
Shaun-Are you five years old?
Were you living during the three year period when they had the second best record in baseball?
Can we still comment on this story?
So far we can, solong as we don’t discuss anything controversial. In today’s cancel culture, everything that can be misinterpreted, will be misinterpreted. And instead of faux outrage being poured on the poster, we will have the League of Easily Triggered, who are not even BB fans, pouring their derision on MLB-R for the audacity of having a forum allowing comments.
Cancel culture is literally free speech in which you don’t like the outcome. If you’re against “cc” are you implying that people should not be allowed to choose which ideas they disagree with?
That said, even in the early days Tim was very reactive sensitive to controversy, which is ironic given that’s the best part of sports and rumor.
There is no such thing as “cancel culture”. There is such thing as facing consequences for your words and actions, however.
There is no such things as cancel culture? What planet are you on. It’s not Earth. Go Indians and Redskins. Oh wait, they now can’t go, they just have to go away.
Just an example, I called the Hong Kong Flu the Hong Kong Flu and was called a racist. Flu used to be named after their country of origin… you can’t do that today.
Enough with the Ohtani news already. You people would think to cease the over-reporting of Japanese players like they’re gods or saviors to baseball. You’d think you’d remember the Daisukes, the Tanakas and Fujimawas enough to remember this. But, oh yes, it’s a California team, so we better make sure to report it so much and so often that generations of baseball fans down the road will know California was superior to everyone in every way.
Agreed, Cali is the best.
Friendly reminder that the Mariners organization is trash on all levels 🙂
Pirates: Ben’s explanation is a .. well duh but maybe drive by baseball fans don’t know…
Still upset a bit, imo pirates had a chance to not be bad this season just by bolstering pitching (assuming bounce back seasons)
That said.. i’m kinda with Ben on this.. i don’t like it but… picking up talent for a dud 2021.. and if the current young guys do well, 2022 might be looking to add a few players while not breaking the bank
Joe-I usually go with the previous philosophy of trying to stay decent to reasonably good so that fans do not leave in droves.
In some respects they may have had historic low attendance last year as bad as they were.
I think that this move to trading almost everyone with two years of control or less keeps BC off the hook for a while because it will take some time for these kids to attain a ML competency,and everyone knows that they will be fairly bad until then.I think that the over/ under this year is 100 losses.
That said,the NLC is so bad that this would have been the perfect year to possibly finally beat out the Cardinals for the title if everything had not gone downhill over the last year and a half.
They are going to have to add power.As awful as Alvarez was he could win a game with one swing of his bat.
Yeah IMO it depends on the outlook for ’22 that we really won’t have any idea until the break and people like Rich and Adam may lose some value.
I expect a 90-100 loss season as well. but strong bounce backs from the likes of Reynolds and Newman and the pitching is better.. i can see them doing better.
yeah and they do need more power. If Craig makes the line up it wouldn’t surprise me if he makes up for the loss of Bell’s slugging and the addition of T. Frazier could help that as well… if he gets to play with Hayes, Moran and possibly Craig in the mix.
Joe they do not seem to value Craig highly at all.Now that Bell is gone maybe he gets more playing time but they did not give him a chance last year when it was obvious that they were not going to compete.
Frazier,like everyone else,did not hit last year,so his value will go up.RR is a fairly good pitcher,a coup for NH,but a bad year would lessen his value.I think though that at the trade deadline they may very well get a good young player or two in return.
I,unlike perhaps you,hope they move Frazier to left field,and allow Newman to play full time at second,and Tucker full time at shortstop
It will be interesting to see any young players come up,and whether the older ones can revive their careers.There actually is more freedom when you know that you will not contend,even in this weak division.
I think Craig was undervalued and blocked by Bell. Being stuck for as long as he was in the MiLB might have derailed him though. I’d give him the majority of time in spring just to see.
I’d still keep A Frazier in 2b, more trade value there and people should look at him as a 2b. OF’s are easier to come by than gold glove candidate 2b that won’t kill you in the lineup.
You know well.. that’s just my opinion man 🙂
I cannot argue with a smart poster’s opinion.
Frazier is a pretty good player and a decent hitter.David Freese said a few months before he left that AF could win the batting title sometime.He has worked hard to become a good second baseman,and the Pirates have received some decent low cost outfield candidates in the meantime.
I just feel bad that Newman would not be getting a shot at his best position.He has a very good year in 2019 with four walkoff hits and a 312 batting average.He could be passed by if some of these young infielders progress much more quickly than expected.Then he would have little trade value.
The Pirates basic outline: sell everything that isn’t nailed down and hope nobody notices
Rsox-They will trade anyone but at least BC is trying to get s9mething for them.
Not quite like your words imply.
Show time!!! I trust Ohtani’s talents, just lean back and enjoy the show. The Angels have the 2 best players you, STOP, drop everything, and watch, when they come to bat/pitch. Whatever happens, enjoy it. I know I do. (;
agreed, i wish i got more of their games here in the east