The Padres have had another significant offseason, adding Xander Bogaerts on an 11-year megadeal and bringing in Matt Carpenter via two-year guarantee. Those players lengthen a lineup that already had plenty of talent, with Bogaerts in particular building on an existing area of strength.
San Diego certainly didn’t need another infielder. Ha-Seong Kim and Jake Cronenworth would’ve made for an effective pairing up the middle, while Manny Machado has third base secured. Fernando Tatis Jr. will be back from his performance-enhancing drug suspension by the end of April and was already expected to see plenty of outfield work in deference to Kim and Cronenworth. As things stand, the Bogaerts signing pushes Kim to second base and Cronenworth over to first while keeping Tatis in the outfield on most days.
That overflow of up-the-middle talent is an enviable “problem” to have, as it affords them the ability to turn to the trade market. To that end, Dennis Lin of the Athletic reports the Padres are open to discussions on both Kim and center fielder Trent Grisham. Lin adds the organization isn’t interested in parting with Cronenworth and suggests a deal involving Grisham might be more likely than one than sends Kim elsewhere.
Grisham has spent the last three years in San Diego. Acquired from the Brewers in the deal that sent Luis Urías and Eric Lauer to Milwaukee over the 2019-20 offseason, he immediately stepped in as the Friars primary center fielder. Grisham had a great first season, collecting 10 home runs and stolen bases apiece with a .251/.352/.456 line while playing in 59 of the 60 games during the shortened 2020 campaign. He looked like a budding star, but his offense has regressed in the past couple seasons.
The lefty hitter put up a .242/.327/.413 slash in 2021, with that production checking in right around league average. He took another step back this past season, posting a .184/.284/.341 mark through 524 trips to the plate. Grisham connected on 17 longballs and walked at a robust 10.9% clip but had the worst batting average of any hitter with at least 500 plate appearances. While there’s some amount of misfortune in the meager .231 average on balls in play he mustered, there were also plenty of worrisome underlying indicators.
Grisham struck out in 28.6% of his plate appearances, the worst clip of his career. Only Randal Grichuk had a lower line drive rate than Grisham’s 13.5% mark (minimum 500 PA’s) and his hard contact percentage was middle-of-the-pack. A left-handed pull hitter, Grisham could stand to benefit somewhat from the forthcoming shift limitations, but it’s not likely to be all that significant a boost unless he trims his strikeouts and/or improves his contact profile.
To his credit, the 26-year-old remained a valuable part of the San Diego lineup even during a disappointing offensive year. Grisham played more than 1100 innings in center field and earned a second career Gold Glove for his work. Defensive Runs Saved credited him as eight runs better than average, while Statcast pegged him as 12 runs above par. Grisham’s glove has been a plus throughout his career, as he combines excellent speed with quality reads and solid arm strength.
Despite the career-worst offensive season, Grisham would have a decent amount of value on the trade market. His defense raises his floor and he’s shown prior glimpses of quality work at the plate. With three seasons of remaining arbitration control and projected by MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz for a modest $2.6MM salary next year, he’d have plenty of appeal in a market starved for quality center field options. There are no remaining free agent center fielders who’d likely play every day on a contender. The trade market is similarly without many obvious candidates. The Royals would listen to offers on Michael A. Taylor and the Twins are known to be open to dealing Max Kepler. Bryan Reynolds requested a trade from Pittsburgh, but the Pirates have maintained they won’t budge off a lofty asking price.
Teams like the Red Sox, Rockies, Rangers, Reds and Marlins are among the clubs that have sought center field help. That’s also true of the Dodgers, though it’s hard to imagine San Diego trading anyone to their chief competitors in the NL West. Lin relays that San Diego has interest in Marlins starter Pablo López and speculates the Friars could look to market Grisham to Miami in a deal for rotation help, though there’s no indication the sides have actually had those discussions to this point.
Kim should have even stronger trade appeal, as he’s coming off a better offensive season. After struggling in his first MLB campaign, the former KBO star hit .251/.325/.383 across 582 plate appearances in year two. Kim picked up 11 homers and 29 doubles while striking out in only 17.2% of his plate appearances. He also stole 12 bases in 14 attempts.
Like Grisham, Kim provides sizable value on the defensive side. Pressed into primary shortstop duty by Tatis’ injuries and suspension, the 27-year-old looked like a Gold Glove-caliber middle infielder. DRS credited him as 10 runs above average in a little less than 1100 shortstop innings, while Statcast estimated him as five runs better than average. Kim had also rated as a plus defender at second and third base during the 2021 campaign.
Upon making the jump from South Korea during the 2020-21 offseason, Kim landed a four-year, $25MM guarantee. He’s due a modest $17MM over the next two seasons (including a buyout on a 2025 mutual option) and is slated to head back to free agency following the ’24 campaign. That’s excellent value for a player coming a season as strong as Kim’s and in his prime years.
As with center field, the middle infield market has dried up considerably at this stage of the offseason. Assuming Carlos Correa finalizes a deal with the Mets, the top remaining free agents are Elvis Andrus and players like Hanser Alberto and José Iglesias. Obvious trade possibilities are again sparse. Players like Amed Rosario, Jorge Mateo or Nick Madrigal could be dealt but aren’t necessarily likely to move. Boston, Atlanta, Minnesota, the Angels and the White Sox are among the teams that could seek out upgrades at one of the middle infield spots.
There’s no urgency for San Diego to deal either Grisham or Kim, of course. Both players are affordable and currently penciled into everyday roles. Padres president of baseball operations A.J. Preller acknowledged as much last week, telling Ken Rosenthal of the Athletic the team’s “intention” was to retain their current position player group thanks to “the flexibility and the versatility it gives our team.” Lin’s report suggests they’re not completely committed to that course of action, though, at least if offered a chance to upgrade elsewhere on the roster.
The back of the rotation is something of a question mark, with Nick Martinez and Seth Lugo slated for the fourth and fifth spots behind Joe Musgrove, Blake Snell and Yu Darvish. Only Musgrove is guaranteed to be around beyond next season; Snell and Darvish will be free agents at the end of the year, and Martinez and Lugo could opt out of their multi-year deals (although only if the team first declines a two-year option in Martinez’s case). The club could also consider ways to upgrade at catcher or add another bat to the corner outfield/first base mix.
The organization’s farm system has thinned considerably in recent seasons as they’ve packaged a lot of their depth for impact trade acquisitions, perhaps leading them to be more amenable to deal from the MLB roster in the right circumstance. Young catcher Luis Campusano would seem to be a candidate for such a move on paper considering his strong prospect pedigree, but Lin relays that trade interest in the 24-year-old isn’t especially strong at this point.
kellin
Question. Is Kim an upgrade for the Angels and can a trade be made ?
angelsfan4life
To answer your question, nope
CaptainJudge99
BREAKING NEWS: Tatis ringworm is finally in remission.
Friarguy19
Ace, CONSIDER letting it drop, huh?
CaptainJudge99
@Friarsguy19- No way. Are you Tatis doctor? I see how much this is really bothering you. Hey at least YOU have healed him from his condition.
hiflew
Answer. Judgment call. Yes a trade can always be made. There is no such thing as a player that cannot be traded for the right price unless a no trade clause is invoked.
kellin
@hiflew I was just pondering what the asking price for Kim would be, and if its in the Angel’s range.
websoulsurfer
Look at what the cost was for other 5 WAR players with 2 years of team control. Even if he was available in trade, the Angels don’t have the pieces to make it happen unless they were willing to include Hoppe and Neto.
Troutahni
Kim is definitely an upgrade. I’ve was read the Angels to trade for him ever since the Padres signed Bogarts. He’s a slick fielder whose bat is still improving. Stick him at Ss and Rengigo at 2B and the roster is set for the next couple of seasons. Sign then both before they become free agents.
A move to get Kim puts the Angels in the playoffs for the first time since 2014.
Kim would give the Angels the best 1 thru 9 lineup in baseball.
1. Taylor Ward. LF
2. Mike Trout. CF
3. Shohei Ohtani. DH/SP
4. Anthony Rendon 3B
5. Hunter Renfro. RF
6. Brandon Drury. 1B
7. Luis RengifO 2B
8. Logon O’Hoppe. C
9. Ha-Seong Kim. Ss
Give me a line up with a higher ceiling in MLB that’s better.
Troutahni
Imagine Kim and Ward on base for Mike Trout’s spot in the order in the middle of the game.
JustaFan 2
Imagine Trout not being on the IL for half the season!
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
Mets have a better lineup for sure, even with Kim on the Angels. Padres are better, and the Phillies probably are as well. The Blue Jays had a killer lineup going into opening day 2022. I’m not sure how valid that still is now.
Henry Silvestre
Kim can also lead off vs lefties ..he has a .380 OBP vs lhp..absolutely rakes vs LHP..RHP give him trouble BUT he was in essence a regular rookie (his rookie yr 2021 got inconsistent playing time and dealt with culture Schock
MLB Top 100 Commenter
DTR
At least we can agree once today, adding Kim would not give Angels a top three lineup.
David
You’d be better with Gio Urshela at 2B than Rengifo.
baseballfan2801
Def not an upgrade imo. I look at it as the same as when they had Andrelron Simmons. Great defensive but the bat doesn’t play to well and doesn’t equate to much
BillTheThrill10
Who you giving up if you’re talking about Angels getting Kim? Cause the Padres aren’t going to give him away for a pack of smokes and a case of beer. Gotta give something to get something, you’re acting like the Padres would just give him to the Angles for a pat on the head and an atta boy. Even in this hypothetical lineup you give, they wouldn’t even have the best lineup in their division let alone baseball. Astros, Mariners and possibly even the Rangers have a better lineup than the Angels. So please, enlighten me.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
@Bill If Texas adds Reynolds/Kepler/McCarthy/Guriel or anyone with a pulse, maybe they are better. But, at the moment, even an optimist like me wouldn’t say that with a hole in left field and a questionable DH spot when Garver and Heim aren’t both in the lineup.
Deleted Userr
BTV says Jose Suarez and Jose Quijada gets it done.
BillTheThrill10
That’s why I said possibly even the Rangers, meaning if they were to continue to add to their roster, they could have a better lineup than the Angels. As of right now, yes it wouldn’t be better. But say they were to add another decent bat or two, then we could argue that they would be better than the Angels.
deweybelongsinthehall
What about the champs’ lineup? While I hate Houston, respect after 22 had to given.
Walker4daWinn
This is hardly a middle of the pack lineup only reason it might crack top ten is trout and ohtani being so darn good. Without them it’s in the 20s but even with Kim ohtani and trout I don’t even think it’s top 10
In no order
Braves
Mets
Phillies
Cardinals
Padres
Yankees
Blue jays
Astros
8 that are definitely better
Probably better
Mariners
White Sox
Dodgers
Probably about the same as
Orioles
Rangers
Do that is about 12-14 and only cause the superior 2 talents in the middle are they better then
Twins
Indians
Rays
Brewers
Cubs
Top 5 cmon
websoulsurfer
Padres
Mets
Phillies
Astros
A few that are better than that lineup and it would cost the Angels their only to p100 prospect plus more to make that happen. O’Hoppe would be gone from that lineup.
OJ's White Ford Bronco
OJ here. Every offense in MLB is stacked to the Moon. It comes down to pitching and defense. Pitching more so. You have none. I’m just saying….
cookmeister 2
Angels have none? Staff era last year says otherwise
cookmeister 2
This article is literally about the padres being open to trading him..
websoulsurfer
This article is about another article by Lin that says they are NOT open to trading Kim.
#1WhiteSoxFan
White Sox have an opening at 2B.
Omarj
Kim is definitely obtainable by the Angels, but there’s going to be competition. From the organizational standpoint, by staying conservative they give themselves (front office) a chance to stay on when new ownership takes over (even considering, usually new regimes bring in “their people”). By dealing for Kim, you’re moving a ton of assets to which the Angels don’t have much of. It makes more sense if they get a 6th starter who’s better than Suarez, forcing them to move chips in, and then flip Suarez, Rengifo, and more. But if they give up too much and it doesn’t pan out, then that’ll go against the Angels FO when firings happen, come new ownership.
GoogleMe
I would put Walsh at 1B and Drury at 2nd.
You have to have a question mark next to Rendon. It’s been 3 years since he has been good and keeping him on the field has been a bit of challenging. I doubt he can be that 150 OPS+ again, but no team has 3 150+ OPS guys if Rendon could be that guy again. The team is definitely loaded with 20+ HR talent . In terms of OPS and HR potential only the Astros are comparable. The Astros cake walked themselves to the championship.last year.
revpar35
Best 1-9 lineup in baseball? LOL.
websoulsurfer
revpar, You work in the hotel industry?
put it in the books
The last 5 guys in that lineup are junk
imgman09
Braves,Phillies and a few more.Rendon has to reestablish himself after 2 lost years
BartoloHRball
NY Mets
Nimmo CF
Correa 3B
Lindor SS
Alonso 1B
McNeil 2B
Marte RF
Volgebach / Alvarez DH
Canha LF
Navaro C
That’s borderline ridiculous.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
I’m rooting for the Mets to take down the evil Scott Boras on this one. I hope he gets < 200 million guaranteed. Still, it's possible another team takes him on because of Kumar Rocker's incident last draft.
Henry Silvestre
5.1 WAR > Trea Turner and only making $7mil..Kim has HUGE value and he is automatic your 3rd best player (WAR) behind Trout and Othani so yes HUGE improvement. Don’t know if KAA has the players we need though
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
@Henry Now, use Fangraphs or some realistic measure of value (not WAR). I don’t even buy the claim his defense is more than slightly above average. His offensive is clearly only a step above based on last year, and he has a below average 95 OPS+ in his career. I’d even trust Baseball Trade Values more than Bref in this case due to defense overshadowing everything. WAR says Semien was better than Juan Soto last year. Convince anyone that and I would be shocked.
bitterpadresfan
Soto was an awful fielder and didn’t hit for the padres. Wouldn’t shock me one bit.
websoulsurfer
Fangraphs is useless when it comes to WAR for position players. They use UZR for the defensive portion of their WAR, which does not take the shift into account at all. When 60% of all LHB face a shift and 30% face an extreme shift, UZR has been worse than useless, it has given an entirely incorrect view of defensive performance.
Think about it. A SS or 3B is playing in shallow RF. The ball is hit that direction and is not caught by the RF, it’s caught by the infielder. That infielder gets credit for an out of zone catch, the kind that is valued most in that calculation, and the RF is dinged for not making the play because it was in his zone.
This website uses Baseball Reference for its links for all players for a very good reason, its more accurate.
Once the extreme shift is gone, then in 3 or 4 years you can go back to using Fangraphs, but for anything that measures performance for the past 12-15 years its Baseball Reference or Baseball Prospectus.
Baseball Reference, rWAR, and Fangraphs, fWAR, weight defense the same in their calculation. A run saved is equal to a run created.
The defense for a RF vs a 2B is easy to quantify. 114 chances vs 657 chances. The 2B is involved in nearly 6 times as many plays and effects 7 times as many outs because of double plays.
Even if both are equally adept at their positions, the defensive production of a 2B comes into play 6-7 times as often as that of the RF.
In this case, Semien is a very good 2B and Soto is at best an average RF.
Defense matters.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
Are you saying that if those two were on 1 year qualifying offer deals that Soto would get the same haul? Let’s be realistic. Also, fangraphs says Seager > Semien last year. Bref says Semien > Seager and Soto At some point, stats need to be replaced with rational thought. Many times, they are helpful; however, some personal judgement has to apply. Many Rangers’ guys are or were defense first guys, so I’m not biased here in that regard.
websoulsurfer
DTR, what are you talking about? You said, “WAR says Semien was better than Juan Soto last year. Convince anyone that and I would be shocked.”
I showed clearly that Semien was more valuable than Soto LAST YEAR. Try giving rational thought a try some time.
Ma4170
Not as much as you’re making it out to matter. you’d have to put a stuffed pigeon out there at 2b for it to matter as much as WAR implies.
SportsFan0000
The Padres got “hosed” in that deal for Soto and Josh Bell.
Both players struggled offensively to hit even .200 after the big trade.
If Soto and Bell had performed at just “career average levels”
then maybe, it is the Padres hoisting the Championship flag instead of the Astros.
In a few years, the Padres will regret giving up all that talent for just a few years of Soto and 1/2 season of Bell.
The only thing that could take the sting out of that trade is if the Padres, somehow, win a Championship before Soto’s contract is up.
Deleted Userrr
The Soto trade was as much about 2023 and 2024 as 2022
jamfed
I didn’t like any of the prospects the Padres gave up for Soto.
MarlinsFanBase
@Henry Silvetre
Thank you for once again proving how garbage a stat WAR is.
websoulsurfer
MFB, Thank you for proving once again how little you understand baseball.
MarlinsFanBase
@websoulsurfer
Yeah, thank you for letting me know that my time playing all the way to Division I made me learn nothing about the game and how you clearly know the game more than I do from your experience in video games and fantasy leagues.
MarlinsFanBase
@websoulsurfer
I’d be curious to know ho we’d both do on a baseball field since you clearly know more than I do.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
Here is another one: If you trust the trade market to fairly evaluate value, consider that Reynolds and Grisham both have the same number of years left (3), and both were within 0.3 WAR of each other. Would you bet your salary on Grisham getting anywhere near what Reynolds gets in a trade? Defense matters, but offense is just much more valuable, even in the analytics era. Simmons has hopped around clubs looking for a job in spite of his WAR.
Deleted Userr
How long until websoulsurfer logs onto one of his other 5 accounts to agree with himself?
MarlinsFanBase
@DeGrom Texas Ranger
I’ve got one that is personally funny for me.
Ha-Seong Kim = Brandon Nimmo at 5.1 WAR
And both > Trea Turner
Phillies vastly overpaid!
Mets overpaid!
Padres getting a bargain!
MarlinsFanBase
@thelegendaryharambe
He did forget which screen name he was using when he was responding to this debate.
websoulsurfer
LMAO. Right. Sure. You continually show so little knowledge of the game that to even try to claim you played through D1 is laughable.
If you ever say anything that makes sense, then I will listen to you with something other than a laugh. Until then I will rely on the 31 years that I have spent getting paid for my knowledge of the game of baseball.
Here is a clue that you are pulling a Santos when it comes to your claims about your background. WAR is used by every single major league team in helping to make personnel decisions. They go beyond the WAR used on Fangraphs or Baseball Reference because they have access to data that public sources don’t, but they ALL use some form of WAR. Since it is so important to the teams, why don’t you have any clue about the value of the stat?
Deleted Userr
@websoulsurfer No one on here believes you have ever been paid a single cent for your so-called “knowledge of the game of baseball.”
websoulsurfer
I am 63 years old. My playing days are 40 years in the past with the last of them on the minor league fields in Bakersfield.
websoulsurfer
Not hard to understand. Turner and Nimmo both played below league average defense and Nimmo hit much better.
MarlinsFanBase
@websoulsurfer
Being a telemarketer for ticket sales does not count as baseball knowledge.
If you want, let’s exchange knowledge of how the game is played on the field. I’d love to show you my knowledge of playing the game so you’ll clearly see that I know the game in ways who didn’t learn in your 2-year Rec-League career that very likely ended in 10U that I can base on the lack of baseball knowledge you display.
Let’s see…what do you want to talk about? Approaches at the plate? Cuts on the field? Fundamentals? Hitting certain pitches? I’m game for any. Or can’t you have this discussion because Excel, Access, Brian Kinney and Bill James don’t know enough about those discussions to let you know?
MarlinsFanBase
@websoulsurfer
OK, I’m calling you out.
While I agree that Turner and Nimmo suck on defense, let’s talk about what we both see was their flaws. What did you see?
And for Kim, what did you see he did right with his defense and what did he struggle with at the plate?
I played infield through high school and utility in Division I, so I know the positions.
Let’s talk, genius.
Billy Baroo
WSS, consistently abrasive and wrong and lying about his baseball background, regardless of forum.
Billy Baroo
He used to claim to have been a scout.
Deleted Userr
And to make 7 figures and to have pitched in D1 and to have a realtor sister who sold Freddy Galvis a house in San Diego and that Joey Lucchesi was his wife’s cousin’s kid and that he randomly sat next to Dan Lozano (Manny Machado’s agent) on a plane a day or two before Machado to the Padres broke and that Lozano personally told him that Machado was signing with the Padres and also to have seen A. J. Preller out in the wild multiple times.
MarlinsFanBase
@Billy Baroo
The funny part is that he/she is so uninformed about baseball that he/she doesn’t realize that he/she shows the level of baseball he/she knows and doesn’t know.
Based on the discussion and debate, I have been able to guess that, if he/she ever played baseball, it was no further than 10u Rec League. Not MiLB, College, High School Varsity, High School JV or even Travel League. And very likely not even 12u Rec League. That’s why I get a kick out of some posters like that. They yap about baseball and how guys like me don’t know baseball when we actually played, but then their yapping reveals what they really don’t know.
I’d love for him/her to engage me in this discussion about baseball on-the-field stuff. I’ll humiliate this fool and expose his/her very little, if any, baseball experience – that’s probably limited to video games and fantasy leagues.
Ma4170
It’s actually that way with some of the park adjustment factors and assumptions too. Canha 122 OPS+ last year, Trea Turner 121. Sure, go look at their seasons in detail and tell me how that even sniffs reality.
Buuba ho tep
Funny with all the fake trolls on the internet who lie…the only thing they do is keeping those fingers trolling trolling trolling. By do people need to be idiots. Nice conversations going on. Don’t need any trolls
BaseballisLife
Why do you feel it necessary to lie Marlins fan? You have said before that you were nothing but a fan, but to try to win an argument suddenly you played D1 ball? Give it a rest.
If you knew the game as well as you claim, you would know that the teams use WAR, the guys working for the teams are smarter than us and know the game better than we do, and you would be working to gain a greater understanding of stats like WAR.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
War is a psuedointellectual stat. Analysts can’t even agree how many hits player x lost due to the shift or how many runs the shift saved. How can you then possibly expect WAR to be useful when it is based on individual models? I would say stats like OPS, fielding percentage, stolen base rates, K rates, BB rates, GIDP, runs, and other metrics should be weighted considerably more than WAR alone because WAR isn’t agreed upon by all models and is just like a line of best fit for age and salary for instance. Take this for what you will (you can mock me or believe me if you want or not), but I have a degree in Finance from Johns Hopkins. That hardly helps me with investing my own money or doing my job at a bank. I’m hardly even out of college, so don’t dismiss me as some caveman. I’m just a realist surrounded by many psuedointellectuals.
MarlinsFanBase
@BaseballisLife
I’m not lying and this isn’t the first time I’ve mentioned my past of having played into Division I. And I’ve never hidden that I sucked when I played at that level. It happens.
As for WAR, sorry, but there are so many examples of that being a flawed stat. Very flawed stat.
nd FYI….those teams using WAR are signing Trea Turner for a lot more money than Brandon Nimmo and Ha-Seoung Kim who had higher WAR than him this past season, but everyone with a brain knows who was the better player of the three this past year…and it wasn’t even close. Which is why he gets paid what he does, Nimmo will never get that slaray, and neither will Kim.
MarlinsFanBase
Thank you @DeGrom Texas Ranger
I get a kick at these guys that defend WAR and question people’s baseball knowledge when they point out how flawed and garbage it is. And ignore that the guys who are getting paid aren’t getting paid because of their WAR when you look at salary comparisons between Trea Turner with Nimmo and Kim who had a higher WAR. And the fact that any idiot can see who the better player of the three are – the one that had the lowest WAR of the three.
I remember there were some idiots making the same statements as these idiots years ago in favor of Jason Heyward and Juan Lagares over Miguel Cabrera.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
That Heyward contract and the McCann contract that MLB Network was religiously praising both turned out poorly. I love seeing teams overpay for defense only guys and then end up severely regretting it. Similar things can be said of Will Myers, Eric Hosmer, and countless others. On this note, I hate the Semien contract. I get that people love WAR, but nobody in the right mind would pay him more than Seager, and the market showed it. Of course, Semien got way more that I thought he should, but even the same team values WAR lowly. Even Tampa Bay gave Longoria a long contract extension they never cared to give to Crawford, Zobrist, Fuld, Joyce, and countless others. They are literally one of the most analytical clubs ever. Oakland (Moneyball team) gave its largest contract to Chavez, not Donaldson, Semien, or Chapman. Think about that for a second if you think analytics should be a primary source of valuation. If all 30 teams think lowly of WAR and use it as maybe a 3rd or 4th source, maybe people should come back down to planet Earth and stop thinking they are smarter than all 30 GMs AND their front offices combined. Even the guy on Fangraphs says projecting seasons using WAR is idiotic. People often misuse stats in ways their developers never intended and pretend to know more than the inventors. The hubris here is absurd.
Deleted Userr
@MarlinsFanBase BaseballIsLife is one of websoulsurfer’s burners. I told you he would do that.
Billy Baroo
Doesn’t even change the way he writes when he switches accounts.
Deleted Userr
He is the scorpion and we are all the turtle
Deleted Userr
@Billy Baroo and @MarlinsFanBase now he is claiming he and his so-called wife were sitting next to A. J. Preller and Scott Boras at some fancy shmancy restaurant in Newport Beach last night lol.
mlbtraderumors.com/2023/01/carlos-correas-camp-in-…
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
I thought the Yankees should have traded for Kim last off-season and he definitely should be traded now because his value is maximized at the shortstop position. The Angels are a great fit for Kim and any team that’s needs elite shortstop defense coupled with a serviceable batting tool. The Padres should get a haul for him. And his talents would be wasted if he was forced to play 2B for the Padres, they need to do him a favor and trade him.
Javia135
How long do you think before Kim is starting at SS and Bogaerts is starting at 2B?
websoulsurfer
Javia, More likely that Machado opts out and Bogaerts moves to 3B.
Brew’88
Cronenworth is their best 2B. Kim super utility. If Manny opts (I doubt he will) then yeah Bogey to 3B
I also wouldn’t count out Tatis in the IF, not so much this year but 2024 onward
Deleted Userr
Unless Manny gets injured or sucks in 2023 I don’t see how he forgoes the opt out entirely. Good chance the Padres extend him before the opt-out date but a whole bunch of dudes who have accomplished less than him and are about the same age as him just got double (or close to) what he would be opting into if he did opt in. I already know people are going to bring up AAV but he already demonstrated a preference for term/guarantee over AAV the first time he was a free agent and he has more to gain from a longer term contract at age 31 than he did at age 26.
Brew’88
Seidler has been consistently saying he will extend Manny, and M says he loves SD, so I’m taking that for what it is. The Pads will have to be very generous I would think, to keep from testing his worth elsewhere. I doubt Miami would be a player if he did opt out.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Machado will opt out if he is not first extended, but I believe 90 percent that they will reach a deal to extend him.
Soto on the other hand will go to free agency unless he sucks in 2023 and the Padres still offer a boatload of money. Even though Soto is much younger than Judge, he regressed enough in 2022 that I think he might “only” get a Judge-like or Trea-like deal, whereas at one time, it seemed he would top them all by a wide margin.
Deleted Userr
Player still has to sign off on any extension and Machado has to say he loves SD but I’d definitely take him signing with the Padres over any other individual team.
JoeBrady
How long do you think before Kim is starting at SS and Bogaerts is starting at 2B?
====================
One month.
Brew88
Not sure what Melvin is going to do with this Rubics Cube problem he’s inherited by the acquisition of Bogaerts, but I would hope the team doesn’t forget that Cronenworth is an AS 2B and not push him off of 2B to accommodate Bogaerts, which means Kim is more likely to be pushed to utility role, or only start at 2B/SS when a tough RH pitcher isn’t on the mound, which is about half the season. Against tough RH pitchers, Crozone slides back to 2B from 1B, but I don’t know who plays first in that scenario, it’s either Carpenter or a player not yet on the team.
HawkCharger
Thank you for having a comment that is actually relevant to the post, Ig SOB.
websoulsurfer
Huge upgrade for the Angels. No a trade can’t be made because the Padres have said they are not trading Kim.
stansfield123
Kim was a 5 WAR player last year. If he sticks with that (and there’s no reason why he wouldn’t, he did it by being an all around good player, he didn’t do anything super special with the bat), he’s an upgrade for almost every team.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
ICYMI: I found this speculative piece on low risk/high reward trade candidates from Bleacher Report quite interesting …I hope MLBTR doesn’t mind me posting
bleacherreport.com/articles/10059863-low-risk-high…
MattyD 2
Grisham would be a good fit in Yankee Stadium
Poster formerly known as . . .
I don’t follow the Padres, so I don’t know what happened to his bat in 2022, but if he could regain his hitting chops to go with his elite defense, he’d be a great addition. Trouble is, the bat has a long way to go.
Curly Was The Smart Stooge
Hicks 2.0
Poster formerly known as . . .
If the bat stays where it is, yeah — except he’s a far better fielder than Hicks.
As things stand, they might as well give left field to Oswaldo. Cashman needs to get over his terror of letting young players prove themselves.
CNichols
The short answer is Grisham was way too passive and his plate discipline is a double-edged sword. He almost never chases balls out of the zone and walks a lot, but he also takes tons of called strikes and strikes out a lot. Percentage-wise he only swings ~38% of the time, which is one of the lowest rates in the league.
From watching a ton of his at bats last year, how this typically plays out is he’s behind in the count a lot. He digs himself a hole and then hits a lot of grounders/makes weak contact because of it.
My theory on why he hit better in the playoffs is because it was make it or break it time and he had to be more aggressive. I want SD to keep him because I think he can produce again with some adjustments, plus he got shifted a ton last year and should benefit from that going away.
Brew’88
His hitting mechanics are very sound, it’s as you say, his passive approach. At some point he will improve as a hitter. That is aSsuming his funk isn’t physical (eyesight for example).
What I don’t understand is the basis for this article. I don’t see any sources quoted about the Pads considering trades for Kim and Grish. I guess it’s always a possibility, but such a long article about the mere notion is puzzling…
Poster formerly known as . . .
Then he might benefit from Yankee hitting coach Dillon Lawson’s philosophy: “Hit strikes hard.”
CNichols
@Brew I’m guessing it came from an article in the Athletic by Dennis Lin today about the possibility of trading these two. In there it talked about how Preller has received inquiries on them, but he’s downplayed the possibility of trading them and says he wants to play the group that he has now together. It then says, “Industry sources, however, have indicated that San Diego is open to discussing either player — Grisham, in particular.”
websoulsurfer
CN, you hit that right on the money. His P/PA were 10% higher than league average and his strikes looking is 50% higher than league average.
Brew’88
@CN I read the Lin article, it was just Lin speculating on how the Pads get a SP via trade, no source from Padres. A GM is always open to discussing trade options, so that alone is not a story.
websoulsurfer
The article said the Padres said they were not considering trading Kim at all.
But the unnamed industry source somehow trumps both what the Padres have said and common sense, so we have this article?
Seamaholic
So’s the centerfielder they traded for last year.
CaptainJudge99
Are these the moves you make when your star player gets ringworm?
burnt_reynolds
Hahahahaha good one hahahaha
MLB Top 100 Commenter
This your this ringworm post today? Tatis deserves the ribbing but we should only have to read it once.
Javia135
Let the ridiculous trade suggestions begin! Kim and Grisham for which failed prospects or which former stars now being overpaid?
aspenner27
How about Eric Lauer for Kim?
Javia135
Kim has 3 times the value of Lauer.
Curly Was The Smart Stooge
We talkin’ Matt or Eric?
Matt offers morning coffee…
Poster formerly known as . . .
Kim and Grisham for Bobby Bonilla.
rct
Kim and Grisham for Greg Bird and Shane Spencer. Who says no???
rct
Or how about Kim and Grisham for Alex Ochoa and Benny Agbayani???
Poster formerly known as . . .
Agbayani once handed a ball to a fan, thinking there were three outs. There were only two, and the two baserunners scored.
You gotta get more than Kim and Grisham in trade for a nice guy like that.
rct
@Fink Ployd: I remember watching that game live! I think it was Gary Thorne and Ralph Kiner calling it on the old Fox Sports NY station. Weirdly enough, I just found out it’s Benny’s birthday today.
Poster formerly known as . . .
Wow! Jung would call that synchronicity — but I call it far-freakin’-out!
gorav114
Yanks trade Clint Frazier for Grisham and Kim /s
Joe says...
Who is Clint Frazier?
gorav114
He was still Clint with the Yankees!
Brew’88
@Javia. If we all go read the Athletic article by Lin, we learn that the Padres actually did not say they were open to trading Kim and Grisham. The Lin article is pure fantasizing by Lin (in a “how do they acquire a pitcher” sort of way).
MLBTR then inexcusably gives this story legs by making it sound like the Padres publicly voiced interest in trading these guys. It generates discussion I guess, but this is not a source-based rumor, it’s pure fabrication.
Poster formerly known as . . .
MLB.com repeated the story:
mlb.com/news/mlb-rumors-trades-and-signings?t=trad…
Brew’88
We call it compounding misinformation. Which is why it’s important to read the Lin story to understand how baseless the trade rumors are
Poster formerly known as . . .
To each his own, but reading a speculative article by a blogger isn’t important enough to me that it tempts me to shell out coin to get behind their paywall. Happily, a conscientious guy like you served the community by passing on the info for free. Thanks for that.
Brew’88
If I were to speculate on a trade by Pads for a SP (as Lin did) it would not include giving up a starting OF. Such a deal leaves an already thin OF with a massive hole. Is a SP worth opening the season with an OF of Azocar, a minor leaguer, and Soto? No one is ready from minors either. So no chance they trade Grish, unless they get an OF (or two) in return.
If they trade for a SP they’ll need to part with prospects, and they don’t have many of high market value.
I prefer that they sign a FA pitcher but they may not have the $
Poster formerly known as . . .
Cashman traded quite a few arms to get Montas, three to be exact, and another to get Bader. I don’t see the Yankees having a pitching surplus to trade from, even if they did want to gamble on Grisham finding his stroke. Not the kind of arms the Pads would likely want anyway.
differentbears
Gleyber Torres for Kim and Grisham, but the Padres gotta pay 90% of their salaries and San Diego agrees to forfeit Game 1 if they both end up in the Series.
Cubensis of Saturn
Ha-seong Kim to LAD for River Ryan?
Saint Nick
I cant imagine anybody wanting Grisham but Lil Kim should hold appeal. Twins maybe?
stymeedone
Grisham to the Marlins for a pitching prospect.
Javia135
The Padres would trade Grisham for an MLB starting pitcher but not a pitching prospect.
Curly Was The Smart Stooge
Are you baiting the Marlins?
Javia135
I know the Marlins need a CF. Are they looking for a SS as well? I know Grisham isn’t worth any of the Marlins quality starters by himself. I suppose the Padres COULD trade both Grisham and Kim to the Marlins for Luzardo or Lopez, but then they would need a new OF and a new 2B. They would be better off just signing Cueto and keeping Kim and Grisham.
MarlinsFanBase
@Javia135
Perhaps a Grisham and Kim trade for Lopez and Rojas (Padres paying Rojas’ full salary).
Javia135
I would rather the Padres just signed Cueto, but Preller might do it. Have Ng give him a call.
Jimbo_Jones
@javia135 I totally agree. What about Michael wacha? I don’t know much about him
Gwynning
Curly- Hook, line and sinkerball!
Seamaholic
Grisham is the best defensive outfielder in baseball. Given how many fly balls are hit these days, maybe the best defensive player period.
Saint Nick
Michael Harris has entered the chat.
Curly Was The Smart Stooge
I saw Harris throw a strike to home plate twice last year, from deep center. I haven’t seen Grisham play, but he’s got a lot to overcome Harris as the new standard for CF, offensively & defensively.
User 401527550
I watched Harris completely whiff on a ball to the wall that was easily catchable. He as ranked as the 8th best cf by metrics last year. Michael Taylor more then doubled his DRS as a center fielder last year.
Saint Nick
Hmm it’s almost like Harris only played a portion of the season.
User 401527550
114 games played is a nice portion. In know that must seem like a significant drop from the 124 Taylor played.
Sunday Lasagna
@seamaholic how many runs did Grisham cost the Padres when he was in the batters box? Saving runs on defense is nice, but not if you cost your team more runs than you save by not being able to hit. He’s not worth a major league SP in a trade. At best he’s worth a prospect, a lottery ticket.
MarlinsFanBase
Based on the comments about Grisham’s defense, he should hire Jason Heyward’s agent.
Samuel
WampumWalloper;
I think if he Padres wanted to trade Grisham they should have done it by now. For the reasons you stated.
He’s a good field / no hit CF. Many teams were looking for CF D this offseason, and had enough O to carry a Bellinger, etc. But those teams have since gotten their CF’s. Not sure if there’s any team in the market for one now.
As for ML starting pitchers…..it depends. Neither he and/or Kim are going to bring back a good one. First off established starting pitchers are in demand, and second with the salaries for decent starting pitchers on pre-2022-offseason contracts the player price for getting one in trade has gone up quite a bit.
I was reminded that Cleveland might trade Zach Plesac or Aaron Civale before the 2023 season starts. Both of those guys are established, but need to be reworked. Cleveland doesn’t need a SS or a defensive CF (they have an excess of both). But the point is that’s the sort or return the Padres can expect. Doubt that anyone will trade them a solid #3 starter either under 6 year control or locked into a multi-years contract at pre-2022 rates…..and I like Kim.
jimbobsjorts
I very much doubt your assessment is correct. The Padres don’t need a lottery ticket, so wouldn’t even discuss the possibility if that was all that was being offered. If they can’t package Grisham and a prospect for a major league SP then they’ll simply hold onto him. I do wonder whether they are offering Grisham plus Campy in deals, as Campy doesn’t seem to be in favour.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
I don’t understand the appeal in players with very little offensive value (OPS or average for those of you who look at that) with defensive value. Eli White just got DFA’d. I think guys like this are bench guys and defensive replacements, but they shouldn’t be regulars unless there is a position of designated fielder (not designated pitcher, which we have).
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
To be clear, I mean Grisham for the most part, though Kim’s WAR is bloated by defense, just like Varsho’s.
JPopp9
I think Grisham would be the perfect player to finish off the OF heading in to the season. No stats to back up my opinion. Just eye test and gut feeling. Old school baseball style evaluation.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Varsho has talent as a fielder and as a batter. Moreno was a huge price but the Blue Jays acquired a star.
Seamaholic
Defense is kinda important?
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
@Seam Defense is something, but not with Eli White-type numbers. Grisham may be a bit better, but it’s like teams almost ignore offensive shortcomings for defense. I’d divide defensive runs saved by 2 because different sites have different values and I don’t see a good correlation between fielding percentage or range and DRS.
websoulsurfer
That is because fielding percentage is based on an opinion from a home team employee. No one that understands the game uses fielding percentage anymore because its subjective.
Since you obviously don’t understand them, a good starting point would be learning how they calculate DRS and OAA.
Sunday Lasagna
@deGrom, I agree, not sure why these guys who can’t produce at the plate are seen with so much value. Grisham would be very valuable in an alternate baseball universe. A baseball universe resembling football. A starting defense that never comes to the plate, a lineup of DH’s that never take the field and pitchers that never face a batter more than once in a game. Unlimited substitutions and players re-enter the game at any time. No lineups, teams just keep sending the best available hitter that isn’t on base up to the plate. Grisham would be the Defensive Player of the Year……..but in this universe, he’s just a great glove, no bat player who might be costing his team more runs than he is saving. Baseball teams are better off without the Gallo’s, Grisham’s etc
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
@Wampum Almost up voted the comment until I read the thing about Gallo… see comment below
Sunday Lasagna
Ok, agreed deGrom, Gallo did produce as a Ranger
websoulsurfer
You can’t bloat WAR with defense. A run saved is worth a run scored in terms of winning games. That is not up for debate or discussion. It is the basic fact of the game.
Kim was an above league average hitter. He is not a liability with the bat. On top of that he is one of the best SS in baseball on defense.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
You are being absurd. It is entirely up for discussion how many runs once saves and how many runs one produces. You cannot possibly know what happens on all plays with an average fielder vs this guy. Even with hits lost due to the shift, some say Seager lost 20 and others say 25. Who in the world can be sure? Even these are rounded and based on weighted amounts (50% chance of a hit becoming a hit is a +.5 etc). Stats don’t replace common sense. Let me say this about all the psuedo-intellectual stuff on here: I am probably no different than most guys in baseball analytics when it comes to math ability and degree. The difference is that I work at a bank. However, intellect doesn’t replace common sense. You can value an over the counter option using different valuation models. These models are always different. One says a security is worth 567,686 and another says 673,454. Do we trust site 1 or site 2? You are literally trying to do the same thing as valuing exotic options and saying” this one is definitely worth 567,686. Nobody can possibly argue against that.” Think before you say something that foolish and bold. At least be right about absolutes like that. Also, I am not legitimizing this absurd conversation about defensive runs saved being equal to offense because you are likely looking for attention, so this is my last post.
Deleted Userrr
Obviously a run saved equals a run scored. The tricky part is in quantifying what level of production in what context equals a run saved or a run scored.
websoulsurfer
You said all that nonsense in response to a basic fact of the game. Incredible. You simply have no clue about baseball. That is sad.
Ma4170
There’s subjectivity in judging whether one person would have saved a run over another in the exact same situation based on how they do in other situations. Many assumptions being made based on trends. Which of course ignores the read they get off the bat, the jump on the ball off the IF dirt or grass, the sun, their energy levels that day, the IF positioning by the coaches, etc etc etc.
Where an RBI is an RBI, a HR is a HR
They do a good job trying to approximate it, but it’s far from a perfect science
Mystery Team
People put way too much weight on defense for some reason. Name me one team that would take the better defender over the better bat. You can’t because they don’t exist. Those teams only exist in comment sections not in the real world. I also agree that any stat that mixes offensive and defensive results is simply a way to skew numbers it’s how guys like Joey Gallo get $11M when he’s realistically worth about $2M.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
@Mystery Team Hold on. Gallo had 2 all star seasons, with a .869 season as a Ranger in 2021 and a .986 OPS in 2019. .986!!! This is kind of 45 percent higher than average OPS (not exactly, but some kind of combined average of OBP and SLG). He was a much better runner that people thought he would be based on steals and baserunning, once going 15 for 16 in steals in the minors. If you are old-fashioned and only care about batting average, I don’t have much. However, he has a 116 OPS+ during his time in Texas. That is nothing like Grisham. Even then, homeruns are an old school stat.
Poster formerly known as . . .
“Name me one team that would take the better defender over the better bat.”
Since you ask, I don’t think the Red Sox brought back Jackie Bradley Jr. because they thought he would rake.
fivepoundbass
@Fink Martin Maldonado also comes to mind. Granted, nobody would expect that offensive production to keep a job as a LF or 1B.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Good point, although the Red Sox partly acquired Bradley for Renfroe to get the two Brewers prospects included in the deal.
small_market_chub
Haha amazing comment, so much to work with!
Teams don’t simply choose beTtEr bAT over dEFeNsE, they are looking for the best all around fit for their team. You’re essentially saying all teams would chose a CF with a wRC+ of let’s say 115 but is a huge liability defensively over a CF with a 97 wRC+, but is an elite defender.
“Any stat that mixes offensive and defensive results is simply a way to skew numbers”
Haha what? You’re right, WAR is stupid and no one uses it! /s
The point on Gallo, you say he was overpaid but also say the stats that prove it are pointless, yet they somehow over represented his value because they include defense? Wild!!
Welcome to the MLBTR comment section, folks!
fivepoundbass
Agree MT, WAR discipleship does this to people.
holecamels35
What I don’t understand either is the numbers fluctuate from year to year and realistically how many situations do you encounter per game, per season, where your fielder absolutely sucks and botches the play, or if your fielder was faster it would save a run. You can’t catch a ball that’s out the park, you can only cover so much ground.
websoulsurfer
Nearly every team has a glove only starter. There are glove only infielders in the HOF.
fivepoundbass
@web Have any of them been elected since WWII?
benhen77
Kim to Twins?
SanDiegoTom
For sonny gray?
benhen77
Might take more to get Kim, but I’d be happy with Gray for Kim straight up.
hiflew
Shouldn’t these offers have been taken BEFORE everyone knew you basically HAD to move them? They will be lucky to get 25 cents on the dollar from any team.
Javia135
@hiflew
Both of these guys are slated to start for the Padres in 2023. Why, exactly, do you think the Padres HAVE to move them?
hiflew
Because they have both been replaced by better players from the FA market. Do you really think they gave Bogaerts an 11 year deal to play out of position or sit on the bench behind Kim? And moving Kim to 2B diminishes his best ability, defense.
Javia135
Grisham is the Padres starting CF, Kim is their starting 2B. Neither has been replaced.
hiflew
And what happens when Tatis comes back? You have to think ahead.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Who plays outfield other than Soto, Tatis and Grisham?
If they trade Kim, they can play Jake at 2B, Xander at short, Manny at 3B.
Javia135
Tatis plays LF or RF. Soto plays the other corner. The only other OFs on the roster are Grisham and Azocar. Azocar is NOT a starter. Also, who plays 2B for Kim? NEITHER PLAYER HAS TO BE MOVED. They are both starters.
hiflew
Good luck to you then.
Samuel
” Lin relays that San Diego has interest in Marlins starter Pablo López and speculates the Friars could look to market Grisham to Miami in a deal for rotation help, though there’s no indication the sides have actually had those discussions to this point.”
Javia135;
These article are nothing rewrites of nothing.
The Marlins are not trading Lopez for a good field / no hit CF. In fact, the reason they’re thinking about trading one of their starters is to improve their O. Sure, the Padres would have to attach more, but throw in Kim with Grisham and the Marlins are still not making that move…and as you point out – the Padres intend to use both of them in key roles.
These articles the past week or so are really reaching.
fivepoundbass
@hiflew I would agree, but we thought Tatis would come back last year. Nothing is guaranteed
Brew’88
@Samuel you got it! These articles are nothing rewrites of nothing, as I stated above. I actually read the Lin article, it’s pure speculation ( by Lin, not the Pads) as to how the Pads would acquire a SP.
The title of this article is mere further fabrication by mlbtr to garner chat.
If there is one thing the Pads need as much as another SP it’s an OF. They certainly won’t trade a starting OF to acquire a SP, as Lin seems to think.
websoulsurfer
RF for Tatis. If Soto makes a stink, which doesn’t seem likely, maybe LF for Tatis, but no matter what he is moving to the OF.
websoulsurfer
Good luck to other teams. With no extreme shift, having a good fielding player at all 4 infield positions because a huge plus for the Padres.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Azocar is who I had forgot. He is a 4th outfield at best on a good team like Padres. Any chance Rosario makes Friars’ Opening Day roster?
websoulsurfer
Barring any trades or signings, Rosario is penciled in on the 26 man roster at least until Tatis returns.
Brew88
Eguy Rosario might make opening day roster, but he’s an infielder
Brew88
opening day OF options are really thin for SD. The only other real option besides Azocar/Soto/Grisham are Brandon Dixon (the only other OF on the 40 man roster). I guess Carpenter can play LF if necessary. In the minors they have Dahl, but doubt they’d promote him until he shows he’s capable. Robert Hassell III and James Woods are going to be missed.
Brew88
Rosario (IF) will compete with Matthew Batten for IF utility slot. They may chose Batten in order to get Rosario more ABs at AAA
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Supply and demand, it does not matter if there are enough teams who want them.
There would be demand for Kim.
The teams that were interested in Belli would consider Grisham. I just think the offers will be rather low for Grisham.
hiflew
You are thinking of only demand. The other teams are looking at supply. Teams know the Padres are wanting to improve and are spending a LOT of money to do so. The Padres have too many players at similar positions and will have to move someone if they intend to improve elsewhere. AJ Preller has never been known for his patience. The Padres are over supplied and other teams know it.
Brew’88
@ hi flew, on the contrary. The SD OF is undersupplied, and other teams know it.
websoulsurfer
Not sure why you think that moving Kim to 2B would hurt the Padres. IF he is an exceptional SS on defense, and he definitely is, he would be an exceptional 2B on defense. His bat is above league average.
The Padres have no NEED to trade Kim. None whatsoever. In fact, if they trade Kim, they create a hole elsewhere.
Cronenworth would have to move back to 2B and that leaves an All Star sized hole at 1B with no one on the FA market to replace him. Where are you getting a 1B with a bat as good or better than Cronenworth that plays great defense at the position?
gwynngwyn
Ridiculous take
Deleted Userrr
The defensive spectrum is why moving Kim to 2B hurts the Padres. And Cronenworth’s bat is only “ok” as a first baseman but as a second baseman he’s one of if not the best in MLB.
websoulsurfer
How does it hurt the Padres? Kim will be a great 2B defensively and his bat plays better at 2B.
Cronenworth’s bat is better at 1B than any of the 1B still on the market or rumored to be on the trade market. His defense at 1B is better than nearly any other 1B period.
Having them both on the roster gives the Padres incredible versatility if there is an injury at any infield position.
So again, how does playing them hurt the Padres?
Deleted Userrr
What? Kim’s bat plays better at shortstop. Shortstop is further to the right on the defensive spectrum than 2nd base. His glove also plays better at shortstop.
The same is true for Cronenworth at 2nd base vs. 1st base.
It is not smart baseball to move an elite defensive player from a premium position to a less premium one in deference to an inferior defender just because the inferior defender hits better or has more name value. That is what your Padres are doing.
Seamaholic
Why do they have to move them?
websoulsurfer
Who has to move whom?
The Padres have said unequivocally that they are not trading Kim. In that article they are quoted as they are going to play the infield as is, Machado, Bogaerts, Kim, Cronenworth. They have no necessity for trading Kim.
Grisham is not worth much because he hit so poorly last season, so keeping him and hoping for a rebound with the bat makes more sense.
Poolhalljunkies
Red sox could use kim…fun to see the spin on that..
Rishi
Operating differently than most clubs after a rebuild by using a successful young player (Kim) as trade bait and signing older ones to large deals at the same position. Could make for a more win now mentality versus a perennial contender. But it’s just two guys being speculated on for now. They are shaping up to be really good.
MoTownTigers
Kim would be a nice fit for the tigers who need a third baseman. Good defense, decent offense, and the ability to play around the Diamond if a prospect emerges at an affordable price. The tigers have pitching to trade, so this would make sense.
stymeedone
Tigers need offense. Kim is a fine player for 2B or SS. He just can’t provide what’s needed from the corner IF. They are better off trying Kreidler.
Wilmer the Thrillmer
If someone thinks Kim is overrated, they haven’t seen him play much. The guy is a crazy good fielder, hits well in the clutch and has a great attitude.
If I were Farhan, I’d overpay to pick the guy up to play second. With the new balanced schedule, hopefully teams will start trading within their divisions.
Javia135
The Padres are looking for an MLB quality starter in return. Let’s hear the trade ideas.
AverageCommenter
Kim for Houck and Winckowski, plus a lower level guy like Cutter Coffey
Redsoxx_62
Yeah I think Houck for Kim would be a good starting point
Javia135
The Padres are looking for a starter, not a reliever.
Redsoxx_62
Houck is a starter. The Red Sox plan for him in 2023 is to have him start
Javia135
Call Preller. I don’t know enough about Houck but it seems like it could work then.
Brew’88
Why would the Pads part with a starting OF to fill need for SP when they need more OFers, not less?
Lin has created nonsensical discussions here.
websoulsurfer
Padres will be looking for a proven starter, not a prospect. Houck is a question mark at this point, and they have enough of those. The only reason to trade a 5+ WAR player is to get rid of a question mark at another position.
Add to that the fact that Houck cannot be stretched out beyond about 100 innings coming off 2 straight seasons with just 60 IP and that is a definite no.
butch779988
Nick Pivetta and Houck, who is nasty, might work for Kim. Grisham basically is Jackie Bradley Jr.
websoulsurfer
I have been thinking about this a lot since starting on this thread.
The Padres don’t need prospects. They are in win now mode. If the player they trade for is not stepping into the middle of their rotation and eating up innings while providing an ERA below 3.50, then why bother?
If they were to even consider trading Kim, they would be looking for a major league starting pitcher and he would have to be a really good one since Kim put up a 5.1 WAR last season and has 2 years off team control remaining.
A number 2 starter is what is a probable price for Kim.
Start there and then come up with some trade propositions. Probably not going to be a contending team making the trade since they would be weakening their rotation to shore up SS, but maybe if they have a great rotation and minor league depth.
Deleted Userrr
Only contending teams would be interested in Kim because as you mentioned he only has 2 years of control.
websoulsurfer
What contending team is going to be willing to give up a proven MLB starting pitcher for Kim?
I mentioned Kim and a mid-level prospect for Wright. That would be a fair trade for both teams. Do you think the Braves make that trade?
What other contending teams are going to be willing to give up their #2 or #3 starter?
OldSaltUSNR
Who says the Padres seek, or need, a #2 or #3 starter?
As far as relative value, starting position players trump pitching arms, UNLESS the pitcher is a true TOR starter, and there’s only a handful of those throughout major league baseball.
And as I mentioned in my post (probably near the bottom of this stack), thinking in terms of 1 to 1 trades, Kim for some other players, is misguided. Matchups are difficult at best, and 1 to 1 types, unless bench or PTBNL types, are almost impossible. Think in terms of what Preller could do for several teams, with Grisham, Kim, and possibly a prospect or two, maybe even a relief arm. Then you’ll start to see the possibilities, e.g. say Padres get a RELIABLE #4 or #5 innings eater, good for 10 wins and showing for 190 innings, maybe a CF upgrade, versus some package including Kim, Grisham, prospects, and some unknown MLB player no one is talking about (no, not Tatis, don’t bother restarting that B.S.)..
Deleted Userrr
Only team I can think of that would be willing to trade a starter for a MLB position player is the Marlins and they probably want someone with more of a bat than Kim.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Padres offer Trevor Rogers and Wendle for Kim and Eguy Rosario
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Kim and Grisham for Sale, Verdugo, Dalbec, and cash.
Henry Silvestre
Sale has negative value bro you would have to add Devers +Sale to be in the ballpark for Kim
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
No way on Devers. Kim is a great player but not worth Devers at all. That would be stupid.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
I’d take just Kim for Sale and Dalbec but I would hate to see Sale go.
Manfred’s playing with the balls
Pablo Lopez for C Luis Campusano, LHP Jackson Wolf, LHP Ryan Weathers and CF Trent Grisham?
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
A’s fan-I’d do that in a second if I was the Padres
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
The Marlins want a huge amount. Look at their sky-high demands from the Yankees. Besides, I think they wanted an offensive upgrade, and Grisham being the center of that deal (or Luis Campusano) likely isn’t good enough. They wanted that top Yankees shortstop prospect.
Henry Silvestre
That’s actually pretty close.. switch Wolf for Henry Williams and it’s a good deal for both
Wilmer the Thrillmer
Cobb plus a top 10 organizational starting pitcher (Carson Whisenhunt #7)? Cobb had a nice year last year.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
I feel like Kim, and Grisham to Boston for Verdugo, Sale, Dalbec, and probably 50m cash could work. Pads need an OF, 1B, and another starter, and the Sox need a SS and CF. Seems like a good fit.
Henry Silvestre
I think of you switch Dalbec for Casas that deal aint bad
AverageCommenter
No way the Sox trade Casas. I actually think it’s fine as is, depending on how much the Padres like Dalbec
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Average..Agreed..Dalbec would play 1st/platoon with Carpenter..Cronenworth stays at 2nd, Tatis to CF, Soto to LF, and Verdugo to RF. Eguy Rosario gets his shot as the utility guy, and AJ gets his starter..essentially free for two years..It makes tons of sense.
websoulsurfer
Let me take that one piece at a time.
Grisham was more valuable than Verdugo last season. More than double the value.
Sale is a net negative in any trade. The Red Sox would have to pay all of his remaining contract and add prospects just to get rid of him, much like the Padres did to get rid of Hosmer.
Dalbec is also a net negative in any trade. He is a replacement level player. We used to call guys like him AAAA players. Too good for AAA, but not good enough to be in the majors.
So, if it was Grisham for Sale, Dalbec, Verdugo and $40-50 million, that might be fair to the Padres.
Add Kim and it’s a no go.
Deleted Userrr
If Sale’s trade value were really that far underwater the Red Sox would just release him. Attaching prospects and eating the whole contract would just be stupid. It was stupid when Preller did it with Hosmer too.
Bobby Dalbec is making the league minimum. He can’t be a net negative in a trade.
websoulsurfer
Sale has negative trade value. Just like Price a few years back. The Red Sox will have to pay both a large amount of money and prospects to get rid of him or eat a huge contract in return. Maybe they only have to pay $50 million of the $55 million he is owed, not all of it.
Dalbec is bad defensively regardless of where he plays and he can’t hit plus would take up a 40 man roster on his new team with little chance of making the major league squad, so he has negative value in a trade. It has nothing to do with how much or how little he is being paid.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Web-His value on paper may be negative, but you and I both know that if he can put together a single season during the rest of his contract being even reasonably healthy, he’s one of the best in the game, and is a bonafide game 1 playoff starter. If the Sox paid 50m, that would leave the Padres on the hook for 3yrs, 29m..which would be a steal..and which in my opinion, puts him back on the plus side value wise..which in my opinion, makes the deal worth it when adding in Verdugo and Dalbec.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Dalbec would platoon with Carpenter at DH/1B, and Verdugo would be an excellent 7 hitter when added to the Pads lineup.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Give them Winckowski too then you have a deal
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Pwndroia-Done. We’ll take him as minor league depth. Draw up the paperwork.
Deleted Userrr
If a player is owed the league minimum the absolute lowest his trade value can be no matter how bad he is is zero.
JoeBrady
Maybe they only have to pay $50 million of the $55 million he is owed, not all of it.
=================================
That’s ridiculous. You’re treating Sale as if he were dead. FWIW, FG projects a 2.9 WAR. Given the contracts being handed out this off-season, I’m not all inclined to trade him.
If I were the RS, I’d tell SD that that Verdugo, Houck, Dalbec & Duran in some combination for Kim and/or Grisham.
jimd-2
Braves or Phillies should be looking to add Grisham. He owned the Mets and Scherzer in the NL playoffs.
SeibuLionsNPB
If I was AA I’d call up and see if you could get both Kim and Grisham for a package that has either Padres pick of Ian Anderson or bryce elder, shuster, roddery munoz, cody milligan, and eddie rosario to offset some salary.it may be an overpay for atlanta but it improves the braves who are in win now mode. The padres get an mlb ready pitcher and 3 of the braves top 30 prospects in Shuster, munoz, and milligan. Rosario is an outfielder to return back to the padres who would need a mlb caliber upgrade and it offsets some salary for both sides.
j_butte
I’d rather have Rosario than Grisham. Eddie had better offensive numbers blind last year than Trent and a much longer track record of offensive success. Kim I’d be interested in though.
hammertime510
Irvin and Kemp for Kim
PutPeteinthehall
Trent needs a hitting lab. Probably needed to be sent down last season. The focus at major league level is to win games. The focus at triple a is to develop players. The best is yet to come. He was rushed to MLB.
ClevelandSteelEngines
Kim to Sox in exchange for fans forgiving Padres for stealing Bogaerts.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Kim and a prospect to Sox for Hendricks
BigFred
Grisham sounds like another Cody Bellinger.
Seamaholic
Better fielder, worse hitter
websoulsurfer
Last season Grisham was better at both. That is incredible to type, but true. Wow! If I had not looked it up, I would not have believed it.
83 OPS+, 8 DRS, 17 OAA
78 OPS+, 0 DRS, 7 OAA
cbraves
Braves could use both of them .
99socalfrc
HSK to the Braves would probably end up with another parade in Atlanta and AA stealing the “Rockstar” GM nickname right out from under clueless Preller.
websoulsurfer
Kim and mid-level prospect to the Braves for Wright.
bkbk
Kim to the Angels for moniak and jordyn adams
Javia135
2 failed prospects for Kim? No thanks.
getrealgone2
The Braves don’t have much else to offer SD.
Henry Silvestre
D’arnaud for Kim..
Padres could then send Grish and Campy to Fish for Lopez + Berti
Gman7777
That looks like an even-up swap that works perfect for both teams. Their contract $ are almost identical other than D’Arnaud’s option year is 2024 (no buyout) and Kim’s option yr is 2025 ($2m buyout).
Kim and Grissom would be Belliard/Blauser all over again. Not great but just good enough.
VegasMoved
I don’t know, trading Kim would mean the Padres only have 4 shortstops in their lineup…
Henry Silvestre
5 but who is counting Nola was a SS
Javia135
Machado, Bogaerts, Kim, Cronenworth, Tatis and Nola = 6.
Henry Silvestre
He meant after the trade ..yes we have 6 but would still have 5 if Kim moved
Brew’88
Rosario can also play SS, in fact he has the best throwing arm of the other 6
Javia135
Actually, Tatis had the fastest infield throw on record in MLB until O’Neil Cruz threw one faster.
Brew’88
Faster yes, Tatis has the canon of cannons, but not rated as better (includes accuracy)
Henry Silvestre
I can see a Kim for Arraez type deal with the Twins..Crone stays at 2B and Arraez starts at 1B
websoulsurfer
That is the 1st trade proposition that actually seems doable and fair for both teams on this board so far.
Gwynning
I was thinking Twins too. Kim and Grish for Bailey Ober and Buxton. If they whine, we throw in Weathers and 2 Zoo passes.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Who wants Buxton at this point? April/May hitter and injured the rest of the time.
Gwynning
I’d be banking on the ol’ change of scenery speculation for Bux… but you’re probably right Pedey.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
I can’t even use that argument. Scenery isn’t the problem when you hit over .300 in April and May. He just can’t hit for average outsthose months. months.
Henry Silvestre
I can see Kim to Boston for Cadas + Sale + $30mil to offset Sales negative value
Henry Silvestre
Casas
dirty617water
And who would play 1st???
coup
I’m sorry Henry but I strongly doubt Boston would do that. I can see a KIm for Arraez deal happening though. I’d love to be proven wrong about your. Bosox proposal That would be an awesome deal for the Padres!
websoulsurfer
It would be a total fail for the Padres. An above average hitter and exceptional defensive SS for a 1B prospect that has not proven he can play at the major league level? No.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Not when you get Chris Sale with him.
coup
I hope Henry’s Bosox proposal will happen. I love Casas and Sale!
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
I don’t think we will trade Casas. Dalbec is more likely but who would want him?
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Not Casas but Dalbec and Sale.
User 589131137
Pick up the phone Antonetti….
rememberthecoop
I say “meh” on both players.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Kim had over 5 WAR. That was double Bryce Harper’s WAR in 2022
SODOMOJO
Seriously? Grish is the one they want to trade? We’ll take him off your hands. He’d look great next to Julo and Teoscar
CrikesAlready
The only player I cheered for on the Padres was HSK. Even offering him up for trade, a guy who really stepped up and helped the Padres immensely, while Preller wasn’t out getting a top flight first baseman…
All I could hope for is a team like the Dodgers or Giants get him and beat the crap out of the Padres every time they play. HSK is this Padre generation’s Tim Flannery, except HSK has talent.
SODOMOJO
I love watching HSK highlights. Guy can play some d. And makes it look smooth and simple
Brew’88
What makes you think the Pads are offering Kim up for trade?
99socalfrc
Kim raised his average 50 points in year 2 of MLB, is the best SS defensively on their roster (easily) and has 2 years of control left. Trading him would be pretty dumb.
Grisham is as good as gone, because selling low is one of Preller’s favorite go to’s. That the guy plays a great CF and you have no logical replacement seals the deal.
Seamaholic
He’s their only CF. Tatis has never played there.
Henry Silvestre
I dont know if Grish value is low with a 2nd GG in 2022 and a phenomenal WC series vs Mets and awesome NLCS vs LAD..Got to consider Grish is a FA in 2024.. and we can’t afford him with Manny/Xander/Tatis under control ..yes Manny staying (extension in Spring)..and Soto a FA as well in 24.. if they keep the Fearsome 4 some together (around $135mil per AAV.. the other 4 position players and DH + bench going to be a lot of pre-arb guys or arb 1, 2 max.. like Merrill taking over for Crone (traded) etc..cant keep the 4 and pay more than $10mil to more than one other + a bunch of minimums and $1-$2mil guys Pitching would take about $100mil so 3-4 SP get paid 3-4 BP get paid and the rest again from within controlled younger types
Simm
Grisham isn’t a free agent until after 2025. 3 more years of control still.
Consigliore
Grisham is painful to watch at the plate. He often seems lost and watches many strikes go by without swinging, especially with 2 strikes. Wha’?ver happened to “protecting the plate.”
mp9
I hope Twins gets Kim !!!
Cleon Jones
No way, zero chance, none, SD is trading Kim.
JoeBrady
No way, zero chance, none, SD is trading Kim.
===========================
Where does he play?
Javia135
Kim will begin the year as the Padres 2B. When Bogaerts defense starts to slip he and Kim will switch positions.
Brew’88
Mlbtr should have told that to Lin, rather than misrepresenting the speculation of Lin as some sort of source-based fact.
JoeBrady
I wouldn’t dismiss the rumors either. The best way for Preller to put the word out that Grisham and Kim are available is to let Lin write about without attribution. This way Preller doesn’t have to telegraph the fact that he is looking to move them.
And both names make
Brew88
I wouldn’t dismiss the rumor, I just don’t see evidence that it exists external to Lin’s self-admitted speculation
guilderc
Domingo German for Trent Grisham? I’d imagine the Yanks would have to throw in a prospect as well.
websoulsurfer
The article says that the Padres have steadfastly said that Kim was not available in trade, but that some unnamed sources in the industry are claiming they are open to trading him.
Brew’88
Unnamed sources = non story
raysiniowa
Tampa Bay Rays, here’s your lefty hitting outfielder, Grisham is a stud, get it done!
vacommish
This pair is tailor made for the Braves.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
I wouldn’t mind at all if Bloom took a shot at getting Kim. I think Kim has a lot of potential. He’s just playing on a crowded Padres team, which has not helped his cause.
MoTownTigers
@stymedone
1 Teams don’t have to have power at every position. Complementary players are import – as is defense and team chemistry.
2 please tell me where the Tigers are going to find a major league third baseman with 30 hr power.
3 if the rest of the lineup hits to their potential, there’s plenty of power on the team.
4 he very well might settle at second with greater range than schoop who can play third and will be gone next year.
5 kriedler hit 230 at aaa, and was below the Mendoza line with the Tigers last year.
Before correcting people, you should have a clue of what you’re talking about.
Dogs
Eduardo Rodriguez even up for Kim.
stymeedone
@motown
Are your feelings hurt because I disagreed with your opinion? I didn’t “correct” anyone. If you look at what Kim did in 2021, it left little optimism for what he did in 2022. Yet they played him and look what happened. Kreidler was a top prospect when the Tigers were ranked the 3rd best farm. I would like to see how much he can offer. As to last year, are you aware he was injured for much of the year? Also, where did you come up with the 30 HR requirement? It wasn’t from me. I would take Kim in a heartbeat over Baez, but at SS. Since Detroit has Baez, lets see what the Farm can provide (since Harris cut their best option, Candelario, arguing over $1mm).
ericl
I don’t think Grisham is enough to get Lopez from the Marlins. The Fish want to trade from their pitching depth to improve their offense. I think they’d want a better offensive threat than Grisham.
Javia135
Then it would have to be a 3-team trade. I don’t think the Padres should or will trade either one. This is just noise to get people talking.
Brew’88
Exactly
VegasSDfan
Who would play Center? Also, who would play Short or 2nd for Kim. I want the Padres to keep Kim
Simm
Tatis would play center, Xander plays short and cronenworth plays second. Carpenter then goes to 1st or they add a player like Mancini.
Brew’88
Or they just add a SP and dont trade their starting CF
websoulsurfer
If Tatis plays CF, who plays LF? Azocar?
Deleted Userr
Tatis in CF, Bogaerts at SS and Cronenworth at 2B.
Brew’88
Keep Kim but sit him against tough RH pitchers, which means he starts about 60 games at 2B, and provides backup depth at SS and 3B. When Kim sits, Crone moves back to 2b, someone else, I guess Carpenter, plays 1b.
James Midway
Fake news
vaderzim
And after these guys had big moments in the postseason. I feel like they should ride the momentum, but I can’t blame them for wanting to improve and try to restock their younger arsenal.
DrDan75
Grisham has turned into a left handed Austin Hedges with an outfielder’s glove.
towinagain
Nope. Grisham has value
omahamadness
Two fresh start candidates, Jack Flaherty for Grisham, who says no?
fivepoundbass
Cards say no. They wouldn’t start Grisham over Carlson
comebackcub
Would leave the depth on the Padres until Tatis returns so you can see how he bounces back.
fivepoundbass
Agreed. Wrist surgery does not always to a simple recovery
tbone0816
Trent Grisham and Ha Sehong Kim for Dakota Hudson, Paul DeJong and Alec Burelson
Bruin1012
Lol
Bruin1012
Yea not going to happen but good try.
Jaysfan1981
Kim would look really good at 2nd on this current Jays squad
big tee
Paging the Jays…here is your real 3rd outfielder, do the right thing, make Kiermaier a bench player where he can get hurt and no one will care. Grisham is coming off a down year but he’s got some real talent and would fit in with this jays team. C’mon Russ!
towinagain
Pads need a starter
Sid Bream Speed Demon
OK AA, now is the time to step up.
lowgear22
Grisham and Kim for Kepler? Grisham and Kim seem like just the type of players that the Twins would take a flyer on, but I don’t know enough about them to honestly say this is a good value trade for both sides?
Javia135
Not close lowgear22.
lowgear22
Would Kim and Grisham for Kepler a reasonable swap? I didn’t know enough about those two players but it seems they are the type of players that the Twins might take a flyer on?
Bruin1012
No
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Is there any chance that Kim could play CF?
Deleted Userr
Frankly the Padres should be looking to move Kim. Only has 2 years of control, can’t hit a MLB fastball and is blocked at the only position where he’s really valuable.
Brew’88
I can fathom a Kim trade for the reasons you’ve given, but they need not just another SP, but also another OF and 1b/DH guy.
I like Bogaerts as a player and a personality, but I have to wonder if payroll could have been used to fill more pressing needs.
I don’t think they’ll sign anymore pricey FAs, if so they would have by now.
Jimbo_Jones
@brew88 they don’t need another OF or a 1b. They definitely need another SP even if that SP doesn’t go deep into games their BP can pickup the innings every 5 days. Cueto or Wacha would probably be enough
Brew’88
I do think they need another SP, my point is that they can’t part with a starting OF to get one, unless they want to start season with an OF of Azocar, minor leaguer who’s not ready, Soto.
Jimbo_Jones
For 20 games azocar would be sufficient but yeah I get what you’re saying
Brew’88
Is it just me or does anyone else feel concerned about Tatis being counted on as full time OF? A new position after all that he’s been through won’t be a seamless transition.Seems the Pads should be adding depth at OF, not parting with Grisham to solve lack of depth at SP.
Jimbo_Jones
You don’t think cueto or wacha would fill that role with the deep BP picking up the slack? No trade keep both Kim and Grish. Have a 6 man rotation. I think it’s a decent place to start to the season
Jimbo_Jones
@brew tatis has played RF in 2021 with his eyes closed. He complained about how boring it was. As it stands there are 4 OFs 5 if you count carpenter as a limited LF (I don’t but the org does). Something to keep in mind right field is huge at Petco LF is tight due to the foul zone. Azocar is underrated. He’s proven he can handle the defense most of the time minus a couple miscues.
Brew’88
@Jimbo. I think Cueto is who they want, and he would fit well, but I’m not sure they have the $ to sign another FA.
Simm
They offered judge 414m or thereabouts. They have the money. Cueto isn’t going to cost all that much.
Deleted Userr
I get that there weren’t any good free agent bats available at positions that were actually needs for the Padres, but I hate the fit with Bogaerts. I was all in on the “Kim at shortstop and Tatis at not shortstop” train. But I’d honestly rather they have not signed Bogaerts, put Tatis at shortstop and seen if he couldn’t dial back the throwing errors then spent the Bogaerts money on pitching.
Jimbo_Jones
@TLH Well said. Total head scratcher, could have picked up two solid SPs.
Jimbo_Jones
@ TLH Thumbs down. Look at their 40 man add Tatis. A SP maybe a catcher are of need. Is it lights out WS team WTFKs but there’s always the trade deadline
towinagain
Unless it’s a controllable arm, Twins and Marlins, match-up then sign a FA.
Hired Gun 23
I don’t see a trade happening…
roiste
Ha-Seong Kim fits the the Red Sox’s current needs like a glove. Decent right-handed bat who might gain a little power boost from the monster, and a Gold Glove-caliber SS who would instantly give the Sox one of the best defensive middle infields in the game with Story at second (a refreshing change of pace from recent years). Moreover, his two years of control would line up perfectly with Mayer’s projected timeline for debut.
In return, I think Tanner Houck makes sense to go to the Padres. SD has a great top three, but Nick Martinez has some question marks, and relying on Seth Lugo to switch back to starting at this point in his career is a risky gambit for a contending team, Houck would give the Padres a much better sixth starter than their fairly thin current options, and would slot in pretty naturally as high-level multi-inning guy in SD’s pen.
I might be misvaluing either player, but even if a package for Kim would look different I think the BoSox have plenty of resources to help the Padres with their relative weaknesses in the rotation and the outfield. I hope Bloom is engaged on Kim, because he’s the only shortstop available who seems like he could truly make a difference for the team’s Wild Card hopes.
Jimbo_Jones
@roiste currently the Pads have a iffy 6 man rotation with Martinez, Lugo and morejon at the back. Kim would require much more then a borderline starter. Kim and Rosario for a 3rd type starter might get it done. It sounds as though Grisham is the piece they would be willing to part with
websoulsurfer
Houck is a definite no. Padres are in win now mode and Houck won’t throw more than 100 innings in 2023 after 2 straight seasons around 60 IP. He doesn’t tip the scales and would not be enough for a 5+ WAR SS anyway.
roiste
Yeah, I don’t buy Kim as a 5+ win SS. He gets most of his value from his glove, which teams value much less than offensive production. Fangraph’s 3.7 WAR valuation is much more appropriate to me.
Houck’s production as a starter has been elite, even if you need to pull him fairly early in the game. The injury risk is there, but he’s a better bet to perform than Seth Lugo and Adrian Morejon. Plus, he has four years of cost control compared to Kim’s two.
Maybe the BoSox need to add another solid piece (not Casas), but the gap isn’t as big as you think.
urnuts
Kim ( who has had only 1 solid year) and Grisham to the Angels for Adell, Jared Walsh, and Barria?
Gwynning
urnuts!
urnuts
yup.
OldSaltUSNR
Grisham is the only legitimate CF on the Padres roster (at least defensively). Kim is only redundant, if greater needs are considered.
Therefore, if Preller does put together a trade involving Grisham, he needs a CF coming back. Thinking of Grisham and/or Kim in terms of some sort of 1 to 1 trade with another team is misguided. Matchups are difficult. However, as a multi-team package, add in some still valuable Padre prospects, and it starts making sense.
What are the Padres objectives?:
1) Upgrade CF
2) Add a reliable back end, starting pitcher.
The team is pretty well set, everywhere else, and can afford to move Kim. Kim is a GG caliber SS, with a serviceable bat. Before some of you sneer at that assessment, go look at Kim’s track record in the KBO. 2022 wasn’t some new “break out” season for a rookie. It was a return to form, for a playoff experienced veteran. Yep, MLB pitching has had his number, but he turned the corner in 2022. He’s worth a lot more than most here recognize. Grisham is a gold glove CF, with a history of hitting, albeit his recent troubles relegate him to a reliable defensive CF with potential upside. That still has value, as well.
If anyone can put together a three team, “win-win-win” trade, it’s Preller. Like he always stresses, it’s all about match ups and relative value. Maybe it happens. Maybe it doesn’t. I’m guessing that on the Padres trade board, it’s option #434., among all the deals they are trying to work. (- not 434 in priority; I mean that I believe that the Pads have dozens if not 100’s of potential scenarios on the board at any given time, and they’re probably not the only team like that.).
Jimbo_Jones
That’s well thought out. I believe this why logically they should stay the course. However AJ is unpredictable. As I’ve said before I think a cueto signing or wacha would be the most pragmatic move but it’s AJ after all. The catching situation is a concern too IMO
OldSaltUSNR
I heard that AJP has an allergy to some irritant called “stay the course”.
The Pads need a #6 pitcher. Even adding another back end starter, their rotation is still much weaker on paper, than last year. Fortunately, adding back end starters is about 100x easier than finding TOR, front end quality starters. I think they’ll get that done.
Otherwise, Grisham’s defense is all the Padres “must have” out of CF; any upside with his bat is a plus, given the rest of the lineup. Kim is the best defensive SS the Padres have, and probably, one of the top 4-5 in the MLB.. He’s a 5 WAR upgrade any place the Pads put him, and the kind of backup IF any W.S. contending team needs (at least, wants very badly).
Jimbo_Jones
As impressive as the rotation was on paper last year the production from manaea,clevinger and first half Snell was disappointing. The BP looks even better this year.
Bryan Reynolds looks ripe for a trade but the Pirates are nutts. I imagine as it gets closer to ST they become more pliable
Jimbo_Jones
I’m not sure how many games you watched last season but Grisham’s at bats are rage inducing. How does a guy with so much talent appear to take a majority of his at bats as though he’s a pitcher? Then a minority of his at bats he’s a slugger WTH!
OldSaltUSNR
It’s all in his head. Figure it out, and you’ve got an instant 7 figure job as a baseball shrink on any team in the majors.
SanDiegoSuperDissapointingPadres
I would hate to see Kim go, Grishtober was fun but I agree @Jimbo he makes me want to punch walls with his at bats. Especially with the blank face stupid look after countless called 3 strikeouts.
What was the kids name in Miami that threw like 200mph and had to get TJ? I think it was Sixto Sanchez. He was a bit wild but let Ruben get ahold of him he’ll get him dialed in. Grish for Sanchez!
Jimbo_Jones
@BBTR Sanchez had shoulder surgery around July of 21 from what I could gather. The fish believe he’ll be ready this spring but it’s a year and a half since homie has pitched (maybe more at this point). Dicey move. He’ll probably be relegated to the BP for sometime. We got saurez I’m thinking this isn’t the move but I could be off
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
Grisham should go back to single A to learn how to hit professional pitching before he is allowed to play another day in the MLB. He hits worse than many pitchers. Kim is more of a AAA/MLB guy. Defense gets guys like Fuld, Simmons, White, etc. bench roles. Offense gets guys paid.
SanDiegoSuperDissapointingPadres
I was going to let your comment sit but…bro, have you watched a Padres game before? Do you even know who Kim and Grisham are?
Yes, Grisham can be a liability at the plate at times. But, my man is a gold glove center fielder.
Kim, was a monster at shortstop this year. He got an MVP vote and gold glove consideration. He’s no AAA/MLB guy, he’s a starter on any team. He’s an average bat with good speed.
Watch a couple Padres games this year…
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
It’s an ironic comment, considering your username. I have watched White play, though, and I do remember Eli White’s superman jump that robbed Ji Man Choi of a 3 run homerun. Still, that defense doesn’t necessarily make up for having a black hole in the lineup. I know Grisham is far better offensively, but still. I have also watched Kiner-Falefa enough to know he wasn’t worth 6.7 WAR from 2021 to 2022. I mean Kim may be a solid regular, but he is no MVP.
This one belongs to the Reds
Cincy needs a CF but if the Pads want a SP, that isn’t happening. But Grisham would get well offensively in that ballpark if his mechanics are sound.
TennVol
Padres might have been a little late getting this word out. So many teams were looking for LH centerfield help, like the Jays, and have made other moves. The Jays and Padres would have made interesting trading partners for Grisham.
Simm
I’m sure if the jays were interested they have already spoken to the padres. It’s not like team woke up yesterday and decided to search for options.
By now I’m sure just about every team has spoken to every team about possible options they are interested in.
acoss13
Alright White Sox, start making calls to Preller, Kim would be the second baseman that is sorely needed.
YEP
Kinda what I’m thinking. Him or Jazz Chisholm Jr of Miami.
JoeBrady
I’d like either guy for the RS, but the lack of prospect development over the past, well, since Theo left.
Simm
I think any trade with the Red Sox would involve sale. He is a huge risk for the padres to acquire but they may chance that he can actually pitch more than 10 innnings. I’m sure it would require some cash coming from the Sox.
If the Sox decide to trade devers I could a much larger deal involving him.
Preller loves the shinny toys and worries about how they fit later.
Sale and devers for Grisham, Kim and prospects. The prospect level would be largely determined by how much of the contract the sox eat if any.
Deleted Userr
Preller blocks Bloom’s number if he suggests this trade.
Simm
Don’t underestimate prellers desire for shinny objects.
bwmiller
White Sox should be in on this trade:
Grisham
Kim
Campusano
Rosario
-for-
Giolito
Grandal
gives the Padres the SP they are after, and a high OBP starting catcher.
The Sox get a second baseman and their future catcher, and can start Grisham in center, they could then trade Luis Robert to the Marlins for say Max Meyer.
Simm
Haha, that is such a terrible trade for the padres.
Seriously awful.
Deleted Userr
Kim isn’t a 2nd baseman and BTV says Campusano on his own gets this trade done.
bwmiller
I dont know, Giolito is a better pitcher than Rogers and Lopez in Miami, he had a tough year but his strike out numbers were in line and he’s better than his ERA from ’22 suggests.
Grandal is still top five OBP catchers in MLB, and he has 20HR power, his defense is in decline and he’s a risk with his injury history but the Padres depth at C should allow them to take a risk here.
Campusano and Grisham is the return for Giolito, and that’s a fair deal. Grandal is a upgrade at C for the Padres.
Sox don’t need Kim, I like our infield prospects as much or more than Kim, but his salary offsets some of what Grandal is owed.
Rosario is a player that in my opinion that makes the deal good for the Sox.
Giolito is the center piece of that trade. Sox are the team taking on a CF who hit .190 last season, great defense but won’t stick around if he can’t hit. Campusano hasn’t proven to be good or great at the big league level. Rosario also a prospect.
I think it’s a good deal, but I guess it all depends on how you view Giolito, to me he is an SP2, SP3. And whether or not you consider Grandal to still have a good season behind the plate in him, because Padres are in win now mode, and if Grandal plays up to his capabilities, he adds significant value offensively to the Padres lineup.
Trade long term could benefit the Sox but short term Padres upgrade their rotation significantly and add a potential difference maker to their offense.
Simm
Grandal has neg trade value. Gio had a terrible year last year. You add him with neg grandal and I’m not sure you get a single thing for the pair unless the white Sox including a bag of cash. When I said a bag I mean a big bag.
Deleted Userr
Giolito is coming off a down season and is also a one year rental. Grandal has negative trade value and was already a Padre previously and Preller hated him so much he traded him for Matt Kemp. Plus the Padres are already set at C.
bwmiller
Yeah you’re wrong about Grandal, the calculator may say he has negative trade value but he is a year removed from a .240/.420/.520 over 400 ABs and that looks real good when you are all in to win in ’23 – Grandal is a guy that has proven it over a career, .350 OBP and is only 34.
Was hurt last year, worst year of his career, but if he checks out physically and is good for 400 ABs and average defense, I’m sure the Padres would be interested.
As far as Giolito goes, I’m certain they would be interested. At this point taking on the extra salary to get a front line starting pitcher and a catcher that has the potential to be the best offensive catcher in the league, well I’m sure the Padres would consider the trade.
The Sox could win this year, I think they have the team to win the central, that’s also in large part dependent on Giolito and Grandal, it all comes down to who has more proclivity to take on the risk that they bounce back and I’d say the Padres are that team, so the trade makes sense from that standpoint.
Simm
Current value if grandal is negative. Doesn’t matter what he did two years ago. He is over paid and under performed. Gio still has some value but packaging him with grandal removes most if not all of his value.
Zero chance the padres would do that for anything if value.
Deleted Userr
Grandal has negative trade value. Full stop.
The Padres could definitely use Giolito but with him being a one-year rental and coming off a down season his trade value, it’s limited.
bwmiller
You can peg a guy as having negative value with calculations but the wins and the losses come from risk reward propositions and being on the right side of those decisions. This is a somewhat risky trade, but has a big pay off, and in my opinion is less risky than the numbers of last season make it out to be because Giolito has been fairly consistent as a front line starter and Grandal has produced over a long career consistently. If both are healthy its not as risky of a trade as it may seem to be, betting that both players rebound to their former mean.
When you are in the Padres position, having a one year window with Juan Soto, where payroll in ’23 is more or less a non factor at this point, the real consideration is how much better does the trade make the team?
And, can you do better elsewhere? I don’t know if they can or can’t but I think the trade I proposed is a good deal for both teams and a good trade.
If it was Grisham and Campusano straight up for Lopez, or the trade I proposed, if I was SD, I’d prefer to take on the salary this season for Giolito and Grandal with both off the books in ’24, sort of fits with the Juan Soto situation.
Simm
I would do the Lopez deal all day before that trade you mentioned.
We have Soto for at least 2 more years so 23’ isn’t the in all be all.
Your trade has way too much risk and what you get back has almost no risk. Even if you paid all of grandals salary I wouldn’t do that trade.
bwmiller
Two years left with Soto, I thought it was one year before he was FA – that changes things a little in regards to the comparison of the Giolito trade VS. the Lopez trade, but I’d still go for Giolito because I think he is the better pitcher and ’24 has a strong FA class of SP’s, as far as not taking on Grandal with his salary paid, that’s not an issue because the trade is no good for the Sox if you don’t pick up his salary. We have a CF in the minors who can hit .190 with 20HRs, he has a good arm too.
Brew88
Gio would be a nice rental piece at trade deadline, when clean socks are 18 games out of first and need to launder
Brew88
Is it me or are NL CFs who can hit a thing of the past? I can count Reynolds and maybe Nimmo, who else?
Deleted Userr
Except you’re forgetting the part where the Padres already had Grandal and Preller hated him so much he traded him for Matt Kemp.
You’re also probably forgetting the part where the Padres’ offer to Manny Machado was 200x better than the White Sox’s offer.
Billy Baroo
Did Preller have time to even meet Grandal before trading him, let alone start hating him? That move seemed like he asked Bud Black, who channeled Mike Scioscia and said “a catcher who can hit? Pshaw! Away with him!”
JoeBrady
bwmiller3 days ago
White Sox should be in on this trade:
Grisham
Kim
Campusano
Rosario
-for-
Giolito
Grandal
============================
My guess is that Giolito + Grandal is not a deal I’d make even if I didn’t have to give up a single prospect. Their combined cost is about $28M, and their combined bWAR last year was a negative -0.9. They should be a lot better, but I wouldn’t expect much of a return.
bwmiller
Kemp hit .290/.350/.500 the year he was traded to San Diego and was a Gold Glove CF, Grandal at the time only had 600 ABs and was a highly regarded prospect but didn’t hit until after he was traded to the Dodgers.
That was a good trade for the Dodgers who flipped Zach Eflin to the Phillies for Jimmy Rollins.
Deleted Userr
He was also criminally overpaid, was a clubhouse cancer and lost just as much value with the glove as he made up with the bat.
damascusj
For the love of Jesus, actually read the article before writing this crap.
Lin NEVER said the padres are open to trading either, Lin ONLY said that it could happen as a hypothetical.
“If they traded this, they could get this…”
Never once has ANYONE suggested trading Kim.