Red Sox’s brass met with reporters and fans at their Winter Weekend convention this evening. Manager Alex Cora and chief baseball officer Chaim Bloom each addressed the roster status with roughly two months remaining in the offseason.
The middle infield is among the biggest questions. With Xander Bogaerts in San Diego and Trevor Story set to miss at least a notable portion of the upcoming season, Boston has very little certainty up the middle. Adam Duvall agreed to a one-year deal earlier this week to man center field, likely kicking Enrique Hernández back to the infield.
Manager Alex Cora suggested that was currently the team’s plan, implying that Hernández was the in-house favorite to play shortstop (via Ian Browne of MLB.com). That leaves Christian Arroyo as the likeliest option to man second base. Bloom indicated the team remained open to adding help from outside the organization (relayed by Julian McWilliams of the Boston Globe) but the Hernández – Arroyo pairing seemingly has the inside track among internal candidates.
Hernández has experience at every non-catching position on the diamond. He’s primarily played center field or second base, logging just 618 shortstop innings through parts of nine MLB seasons. Defensive Runs Saved has looked favorably upon his limited work there, rating him as nine runs better than average overall. Hernández has typically graded out as a solid or better second baseman and a particularly strong center fielder, where he spent the bulk of his time in 2022.
Arroyo has been in the Boston second base mix for the past couple seasons. He’s hit at a roughly league average level in both years, making plenty of contact to compensate for low walk rates. Arroyo has logged just under 900 major league innings at the keystone. Defensive Runs Saved has pegged him an excellent 10 runs better than the average defender there, while Statcast has rated him as an exactly average gloveman.
There aren’t many middle infield options remaining in free agency. Elvis Andrus and Josh Harrison are probably the top players still available. The Sox have been loosely tied to both in recent days. Donovan Solano, César Hernández and José Iglesias are among the depth types remaining as well.
There’s also a fair amount of uncertainty on the pitching side of things in Fenway, largely thanks to injury. Chris Sale, Tanner Houck and Garrett Whitlock each ended the 2022 season on the injured list. Whitlock is returning from hip surgery, while Houck underwent a back procedure. Sale had myriad health concerns that culminated in surgery to repair a fracture in his right wrist sustained in a bicycle accident.
Cora said this evening that all three pitchers have been throwing off a mound (relayed by Jen McCaffrey of the Athletic). All three could factor into the rotation. Sale’s a lock for the starting five if healthy. The Sox have already announced they plan to give Whitlock a rotation opportunity. Houck’s role seems more fluid, as he could crack the starting five or remain in a high-leverage relief capacity. The former first-round pick has been the subject of some recent trade speculation, though there’s no indication a deal is on the horizon or especially likely to transpire.
Trivia: Who has the highest strikeout to walk ratio in MLB history with at least 1000 IP? The answer is in this article. It’s quite marvelous. Injuries aside, this is the perfect type of pitcher.
Chris Scratch and Dent Sale
Bingo! A former workhorse who now needs knight gear to stay healthy! No clue how that happened
I often read in the past that his mechanics are particularly terrible and that they always make him an injury waiting to happen. Of course, he has figured out numerous ways to get scratched or dented since then, but I don’t think anyone expected him to be without significant injury risk over the long haul.
Still, 25 or more starts every season until he got injured seems decent. Is it his sidearm delivery?
25 or more starts every season until he got injured seems decent.
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Absolutely no one knows Sale’s 2023 story yet. His innings in his 2021 return weren’t a lot, but he did look good. His 2022 was lost to injuries not related to his arm.
If I were a betting man, I’d guess the Hernández / Arroyo tandem is what we’re getting at this point. Not sure any of the remaining free agents are really an improvement over that and I doubt you could go out and trade for something better by dangling the likes of Bobby Dalbec.
And when Arroyo goes on the IL? I love his key hit ability but why should anyone think he’ll suddenly be able to stay on the field? Sign Iglesias ASAP!
Maybe because all his injuries tended to happen when he tried playing other positions than his normal 2B? Just a thought.
Sure, okay, but he hasn’t played just one position in a season since 2013 when he was an 18 year old shortstop in Rookie ball, I can’t for sure say that he wasn’t injured that year, but it seems odd all of a sudden to expect a guy who has never been healthy enough to play more than 87 games at the ML level, to suddenly not get hurt because he only has to play one position. I mean second base has only been his “normal” position since 2021. I guess you could argue 2020 if you wanted because he played 13/15 of the games he was actually healthy enough to play at the ML level at second. Dude has been all over for his entire career. It ain’t that. Although we’d all be happy never to have to see him at 1B or outfield again.
Thank you Mookie for putting my thoughts out there better than I could have. I know he’s not ready and the idea is for Yorke and MM to play together in the minors but I’m hoping Yorke has an incredible spring training and forced himself onto the roster should they not add an infielder.
Exactly. Firstly, most of his injuries occurred last year when he was used all over the place. I think being consistent at second base (which I also believe is his natural position) will help his cause to stay healthy. Let’s just hope Arroyo can maintain a good bat.
The truth is, he was never a starter, he was always a bench player who played limited time and multiple positions so I think it’s not really fair to assume anything until we see him actually start.
king – You’re right. I vividly remember Arroyo injuring himself flailing his arms in panic as he lost an easy fly ball while playing RF at Fenway against the Yankees.
Yet another incredibly dumb move by Cora, having Arroyo play RF at Fenway.
Valdez in the minors might be a dark horse option late April
Solano is a good fit
Ditto Dewey. Wtf is keeping us from signing Iglesias?
No idea. His showcase in late 21 and last year elsewhere show me he’s got the bat and is still average or above in the field.
I agree. It doesn’t seem likely that they will add a fourth RHB in the mix for these three positions. One of Andrus/Iglesias/Harrison made much more sense prior to Duvall. They don’t have great options for LHH bench/platoon bats as it is; adding another one of the RH middle infielders means they can carry a maximum of one LHH on the bench (catcher, RH infielder, Refsnyder all RHH)
Refsnyder was GREAT last year but the jury is still out on him. Let him and Iglesias for example fight it out. If anything, the Duvall signing makes RR more expendable. With anticipated injuries, I think there’s room for both. Also, I can see KH in center, Duvall in a corner against lefties leaving either Yoshida or Verdugo occasionally available to pinch hit.
? What are you on drugs? Who’s paying someone over 100 mill to be a pinch hitter? Go watch synchronize swimming that’s more up your alley.
Jury still out on refsnyder ?? As if u don’t know what he is by now give me a break
Before last year, he was a journeyman utility player who had a tough time keeping a roster spot. To expect him to automatically play as well in 23 is wishful thinking. He could be a valuable bench player but he could also easily be cut before opening day.
Jurassic, you talking to me? Who’s the $100m bench player? Yoshida? He’ll still get off days and so will Verdugo. Synchronized swimming? Not sure why you have to be disrespectful. You may want to seek out Dr. Phil to understand why you can’t simply disagree.
Before last year, he was a journeyman utility player who had a tough time keeping a roster spot.
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kmk prefers quantity of comments over quality. I like RR as a #4, hoping he can keep some of the 2022 magic, but he is hardly a sure thing.
I don’t think you’re wrong that it’s possible 2022 ends up as an outlier/career year for Refsnyder- maybe he even gets pushed off the roster late in the year. He’s 100% breaking camp, though. They are starting two LHB in the corner outfield. He’s going to caddy that situation. If you don’t carry Refsnyder, who is your RH pinch hitter. Dalbec? He can’t play corner outfield.
He can’t really pinch hit either. Hopefully 23 is Dalbec’s breakout year. Imagine if everyone hits. A nice problem for Cora to have.
I don’t understand how this article considers hernandez a ‘solid or better second baseman’ when his lifetime line as a 2B calls him a UZR of -6.1, a UZR/150 of -5.3, an OAA of -5…
I’d say by most measures, he doesn’t grade out as particularly good there, no?
GASox – Defensive metrics are questionable at best, I wouldn’t put so much stock in it.
When Hernandez was first signed prior to the 2021 season the original plan was for him to be the starting 2B. I’d rather see him at 2B than SS. I envision him splitting time between 2B and CF, rotating with Duvall/Arroyo.
Expecting Arroyo to stay healthy all season is a stretch.
But Fever, even the ‘eye’ test is somewhat underwhelming at 2b for him.
Iggy has lost a step or two, but, I’d still rather have him at 2b and get hernandez back in CF where he belongs.
There’s so many guys all shifted out of their best positions on the depth chart on this team.
Sox up the middle –
C McGuire
2B Arroyo
SS Hernandez
CF Duvall
Me to Chaim Bloom: You’re kidding right?
The best way to make Devers look better on defense is to lower the bar all around him….
GASox – I agree, lots of guys out of position. It’s not a well constructed team, and it’s been this way for a while now. Bloom bungling the offseason made the situation even worse, he will probably end up making a bad trade to fill a hole or two that he himself created.
So if Iglesias plays 2B, who do you have at SS?
Personally I think their declaration of Hernandez as the starting SS is just a way to get more leverage in trades, they are using the media to their advantage.
That didn’t work with Bogie…I still want Hernandez in center. Fenway is tough and he and Bradley made it look easy. My fear is Duvall ends up more like Duran and Bennie, neither of which showed they could handle it in small sample sizes. The best Duvall ends up is Pillar who was good as a visitor and average in his small Sox opportunities.
The only real stopgap left at that point on the FA market is andrus.
The problem is, I’d bet his camp is angling for a 3 year deal right now, but, I’d think a 1yr+player option might get it done, especially knowing it’s starting and not a platoon situation. It’s boras though so…. eh? Who knows.
Although there are guys out there in trade I’d rather hold onto the prospects. I’d be willing to ship out Verdugo at this point though if you’re committed to yoshi in LF, hernandez in CF, and Duvall in RF.
We can hope fever but I want Iglesias primarily for short to move KH back to center. While he’s not the glove he was, that combo still is the best overall and his bat is dependable for the bottom of the order.
Iglesias at short.
Jose Iglesias!!!!!
Kike is super overrated and there’s a reason he was never a starter for the dodgers
Man what a glove glove duo
I don’t think the team is complete. I think they will pick up at least one more middle infielder.
Regarding the last sentence: there is an indication a trade is on the horizon. Bloom explicitly said so during his Q&A and they’re hoping to announce it in the next few days. Could see a couple players heading out of Boston given how space needs to be made for Duvall
I really hope you’re right, because going into the season with Arroyo as the 2nd baseman is a terrifying thought. He’ll be hurt in 2 weeks.
My guess…. Houck for Kim
Elbo – Yeah it’s been a while since we’ve had a bad trade on the level of Bagwell for Andersen.
I don’t think that would be the full trade. Trading TH for anything but supreme value is stupid and his surgery means his value to other clubs has not peaked. He’s got the size and two pitches to be an elite closer if not starter. I’m looking for him to learn from Jansen and take over the closer role by August. If the team is out by the deadline but Jansen is doing his thing, he becomes a great trade chip then. Alternatively, TH shows he’s healthy and he becomes a major trade target and then (worth far more then than now in return value).
I think Houck is likely headed for TJ surgery due to his high stress delivery. Trading him now wouldn’t be the worst thing.
Wouldn’t be the case
What about a trade with COL for Rodgers? Boston has some young pitching like they wanted out of MIA.
Maybe more enticing would be Verdugo. COL wanted a LH CF but got priced out of the market. Maybe Verdugo and a pitching prospect, plus send 5m cash this season to help with their payroll crunch to get branden Rodgers back on the return?
Verdugo is not a CFer.
He’s not a RFer for fenway either which is the same demands of position. If one flailing franchise plays him there so can another. But, he has taken his reps there which is something, and, more importantly the OF signing spree has left him with 2 years control, but no real position left on the depth chart so…
My lineup has Verdugo returning to left, Hernandez in Center, Duvall in right with Yoshida the DH on days when Turner is not DHing. Injuries will likely make it so there is not one set lineup. To me, I still want Iglesias at short and to move to second should Arroyo go down. That’s when KH moves to short and Yoshida goes to left.
Sign Solano and also add another reliever like Chafin
Hoping it is not Houck. There are few others I wouldn’t mind see leaving!
You’re not alone with that thought but you have to give to get. No one wants Boston scraps. Unless you’re looking for scraps back.
And the couple guys left on the free agent Market are holding out for 2-year deals rather than what’s currently offered by everyone which is one year small money. May as well wait it out which makes sense for those Players whose demand could rise as we get closer to Spring training.
It’s a case of giving a year and a second year player option, something boston has done a lot of the last few seasons to make a bigger 1 year payout split over two years for CBT purposes.
Lack of planning, poor payroll allocation, and a little bad luck on top haven’t left a lot of choices, so, time to suck it up and lie in the bed they made.
Get it done before there’s no choices left, but, don’t trade away the young pitching.
Gary – You’re talking about trading a young stud pitcher with 5 years of control remaining for a guy who will be keeping the SS position warm for Mayer’s debut within less than 2 years. Not a good idea IMO.
Fever, see my other reply. If TH is dealt, it shouldn’t be one for one. That said, his value is depressed by his surgery so the deadline is the better time to trade him or Jansen.
5 years of control remaining for a guy who will be keeping the SS position warm for Mayer’s debut within less than 2 years.
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It’s four years of control for a SS that had a 5.1 bWAR last year (and 5.2/650 over two years) for a RP. Unless Houck becomes an SP or a closer, Kim is more valuable.
I seriously doubt SD would make that trade straight-up.
his value is depressed by his surgery
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It’s also depressed by the fact that he is neither a starter nor a closer.
Joe, a big if but if TH is healthy, a team will see him for what they need. Either due to health or mismanagement, he has no present defined role.
That’s mostly my point. For whatever reason, he is neither a starter nor a closer. I love a 2-inning middle relief guys as much as anyone. But that’s not the way the league values MIRP.
But there will always be at least one GM that will think they smarter than everyone else, and will be able to maximize Houck’s. value. And they could be right.
But Kim is a lot closer to a sure thing. That said, I think it is a moot point, since I don’t think the Padres would make a 1-1 trade.
The three up-the-middle players mentioned are all RHB. Career OPS+ RvR: Kike (84), Arroyo (97), Duvall (98)
That’s actually a bit better than I was expecting. It would really help if one of their in-house LHB could force their way into a platoon. Emmanuel Valdez (2B) and Jarren Duran (CF) are probably the best opportunities to do that.
I love Kike but I am not a fan of trying to start him at SS 150 times.
There seems to be a plethora, a veritable deluge of new screen names on this site I have never seen before over the last week. So is it because everyone has 8 or 9 alt/burner accounts just for trolling & causing mayhem or to argue the irrelevancy of counting stats or what is it?
As for newbie me, I’m from NC and have been a Sox fan since 1965…Sonny Siebert for 9 straight
and Yaz. I copied his batting stance through h.s. and college
Welcome! Glad to have ya!
Elbo – Welcome! Have you ever seen the videos of Batting Stance Guy? He’s amazing.
Elbo, my first visit to Fenway was before the DH. Seibert homered his first two ABs and then missed a third into the screen by a few feet. Ninth inning Sox up when Boog Powell almost caused a sudden loss. His “check swing” was caught in the triangle. 4-1 Sox win as I recall.
Just looked it up. 3-0 was the final.
Yaz. I copied his batting stance through h.s. and college
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I did the same. When we were kids playing stickball, I’d also bat lefty. I liked my lefty swing better, and had a better eye, but couldn’t generate any power and abandoned it.
Joe, me too! I’m picturing myself in my old room listening to Ned Martin with my bat sticking straight up.
No, but I’ll take a look
Awesome, I’ve seen the Sox in Boston when I flew into Pease (AF) . Playing Oakland with Canseco and McGuire …. Had a great time, got seafood with my crew in Kittery and Portsmouth plus visited historical sites.
I loved it, wasn’t that the year Gibson and the Cards beat them in the WS?
Me the same, had to go back to rightie lol
NM
I go back even further: Dick Stewart at first and Frank Malzone (at the end of the line) at third. Pete Tunnels. Chuck Shilling (no relation ). Speaking of Sonny Siebert, does anyone remember the Siebert/Vida Blue duel in 1969? Blue was 10-0 and Siebert was 9-1. Blue won and a week later Charlie Finley tore up his rookie contract (they actually use to do that), gave him a raise and a blue colored Cadillac!
Man you are the true Die hards!!!! I thought telling the youngsters I was to Fenway when there was no seats on monster and I was John Marzannos (c) only fan like now with Braiser… YOU are the guys I wish I would talk Redsox with when I’m in Boston at Buffs pub!!!!
LOL. How many of us ended up switch hitters copying Yaz? Bend the right knee a little, lean forward, 3 twirls of the bat. Hah. I miss my youth!
Yes, only now, should you be worried about the veritas of people’s alt accounts.
There just seems to be an uptick, that’s all. Maybe the eventual answer is to only allow commenting by paid subscribers (badge people) but then I would have to get a job.
You’re totally right. Only money, or those spending it, will make things right… Ahem
Pardon my salt, but do you honestly care? If someone had to create 7 million other accounts to make their opinion feel accepted/validated/or gives them the courage to participate, that’s on them. If there is to be fearmongering. Be more fearful of the world in which you feel the same. Would love to talk baseball meow.
I can’t help it if he won’t let me out of the briefcase!
Whoah! Dang brah looks you’re the one taking things too seriously! People being so prickly these days. It’s Friday night relax my man. I was just having a conversation. Right right back to baseball. It’s all good.
You implied something with little to no information and formed an opinion. None of this was baseball related. It’s fine to air caution, but none of it was needed. Especially not here. If people are online and commenting; I would doubt theyre just figuring out about bots, alt accounts, scammers, hackers, etc. You implied something baseless and suggested a very rash answer… To hold people without a subscription with contempt isn’t a solution and is just blind hatred/poorly thought out. To act empathetic and pretend that it is emotion and not information that drives me is also silly. There is no need for calm since this is simply dialogue. Did you consider people feeling more entitled since they’re all paying for a subscription? What about a total drop off in participation w comments? It’s been too easy to say “not that” without even suggesting a proper or productive solution. I hope these words not only find you, but inspire you as well. Cheers
Know what I’m sayins? Have a good weekend
Right now the only other middle infielder headed to ST is NRI Niko Goodrum. Arroto as starring 2B and Goodrum in Arroyo’s role is obviously very weak, so they can be expected to add someone, and that would be a SS like Andrus or a SS / 2B like Joey Wendle (and yes, the Marlins can give up his walk year and come out ahead).
Doing nothing, or replacing Arroyo with rumored Josh Harrison, is not an option for a team that will contend if even half of the huge number of players with uncertain outcomes but big-time upside (Casas, Bello, Whitlock, Houck, Yoshida, Sale and Paxton, etc.) realize the latter.
Free Arroyo
kyred – Bronson is a full time musician now.
That Jeter Downs DFA looking pretty bad right now.
Why? Hopefully he makes it big with Washington but he’s shown us nothing to suggest he will.
Jeter Downs was so bad, he was released by his winter league team. He batted .190 and .191 on AAA the last two years. He was worse than terrible.
So you think Downs would be playing for the RS now had he not been released?
Please tell me why you think Jeter Downs was worth keeping.
1000% Excited & Finally Christian Arroyo may get the opportunity he ABSOLUTELY CAN RISE TO THE OCCASION FOR! AT either SS or 2B & yes for the season! I hope they extend him feom age 27 through 33 (his prime for 7 years 15 million) prior as he will definitely be at 15-25 million after 550-600 at bats & flawless defense! Arroyo has long (minus Story) been our beat infielder on the team! YUP! I said that! He has! Drafted 25th overall in the 1st round for a reason over compensatory 1st round pick (32) Aaron Judge! Go get em “Menace” in 2023! Can not wait! Our money is best spent for a Brand Hand LHRP &/or Trevor Baeur…sign those 2 & now we are in the AL East Discussion for the division! 100%! Good additions with Duvall & Tapia…conaidering who is left to be had we did great there! DO NOT TRADE Tanner McNasty! Please! That is all…Arroyo MUST get 550-600 ABs! Story or no Story!
1000% Excited & Finally Christian Arroyo may get the opportunity he ABSOLUTELY CAN RISE TO THE OCCASION FOR! AT either SS or 2B & yes for the season! I hope they extend him from age 27 through 33 (his prime for 7 years 15 million) prior (as he will definitely be at 15-25 million after 550-600 at bats & flawless defense!) Arroyo has long (minus Story) been our BEST infielder on the field/team! YUP! I said that! It’s 100$ True! He has! Drafted 25th overall in the 1st round 2013 for a reason over compensatory 1st round pick (32) Aaron Judge! Go get em “Menace” in 2023! Never be a guy they don’t give 500-600abs too again in any capacity, utility(resting guys daily at 1b,2b,SS,3b,RF/LF) Can not wait! Start him every dam day! From there…Our money is best spent for a Brand Hand LHRP &/or Trevor Baeur…sign those 2 & now we are in the AL East Discussion for the division! 100%! Good additions with Duvall & Tapia…considering who was left to be hadn we did great there! DO NOT TRADE Tanner McNasty Houch! Please! That is all…Arroyo MUST get 550-600 ABs! Story or no Story!
I want whatever this guy is on
It’s times like this that i wish this site had gifs hah
Seriously. Pass it around.
Staying healthy is his biggest worry
EXTEND Christian Arroyo 7 years 27-33 for 15 million before he becomes 20+ million aav after showing a full season! I bet he ranks in the top 3 at 2b or SS with a full season!
SIGN TREVOR BAUER! 100%! Innocent until proven guilty…a woman goes back twice because she was abused so bad the 1st time? Makes zero sense! Shame on MLB for a suspention at all without evidence for criminal, civil or restraining orders! Can’t just ruin a mans career because he was a millionaire accused for preceived PR points! And there are plenty of crazed woman who cry wolf when spurned or left by choice.
That makes sense but you have to understand that that will never happen while John “Woke” Henry is the principal owner of the Red Sox.
Amen to that lol. I’m all for second chances
Personally no Bauer fan but the guy can pitch. As far as the kink goes from what I understand groupies have been known to set people up. It’s not like that’s not a thing. But as uptight as this ownership group is I doubt their smart enough to sign the man. All it takes is one GM though. Someone will sign him if not before ST than after a starter is injured.
Ryan Braiser is expendable! Should already be gone before Ward, Song, Politi, Hernandez, Downs, Sawamura, and the water boy! Go get Brad Hand, then Trevor Bauer for Matt Barnes.
Enough picking on my man BRAIS….. when he becomes our everyday SS you’ll be sorry you’ve been ripping on him!!!!
Can refsnyder play 2nd
He came up an infielder but his best position today is as a corner outfielder.
No but Turner can
Instead of signing Story and Yoshida we could have signed Boegarts…a proven Fenway hitter who was never out of the lineup.
Total incompetence by Bloom and ownership.
Shouldn’t you be Grogan’s Gyros, you know for the alliteration that’s not really alliteration?
I think incompetence would be paying Bogaerts until he is almost 41.
Yes but extending Bogey before the season to similar maybe slightly larger contract then what Story got would of been the prudent play. Bogey said on numerous occasions he wanted to stay it took an incredibly stupid extension offer coupled with a gross miscalculation of Bogeys free agent value this debacle is on Bloom. The off-season would look a lot different if they had extended Bogey before the 2022 season.
I really doubt Bogaerts would have signed an extension without testing free agency. I can’t see Boras thinking that is a good idea. Boras is all about free agency and this is Bogaerts last big pay day. The smart move is to see what kind of money is available in free agency. He could always sign with Boston then. That’s my opinion.
Except Bogey already DID sign one deal the season before he was going to be a FA the first time around, and, it was while boras was agent….
Bogey came out and said how much now wanted to stay and hinted at something similar to what Story got maybe slightly more no all in the suit he was forced into free agency by a ridiculous extension offer. He has said on many occasions how much he wanted to stay. Mookie always talked about free agency and wanting to test the market Bogey never said such a thing all he said was he wanted to stay.
GASoxFan & Briun: Actions speak louder than words. Boagaerts opted out of his contract with the Red Sox (not forced into free agency). This tells me his top priority was not to stay in Boston. It looks to me like he was after a big pay day and he got it. Good for him. I am happy the Red Sox won’t be paying until he is almost 41.
No, bogeys priority was to be paid closer to a value commensurate with his services. Had nothing to do with staying or leaving.
BLOOM WAS CHEAP!!! He insulted the player and told Bogey he wasn’t worth anything to Boston and his services weren’t valued.
He offered to exercise vesting option money and tack on just a little extra, basically a slap in the face. Then he destroyed morale and showed that winning still wasnt a priority by his mid-season moves.
Had bloom went to Bogey last offseason with a 150m extension the player would’ve stayed.
But triggering an opt out after the team refused to amend a grossly undervalue deal isn’t saying you hate the city and want out.
GASoxFan: OK. We agree Bogaerts top priority was not to stay in Boston. He opted out of his current contract to get more money. You have no idea if Bogaerts would have accepted a $150M extension last offseason. There is no way you could possibly know this.
I disagree bogeys top priority was to get out of Boston, that’s the point. Stop twisting words or trying to lump me in with your insanity.
I can have 4 priorities, one worth 40% of my decision, one at 30%, one at 20%, one at 10%.
But if you screw up the other three so badly you’re on the losing end, the top priority 40% will be exceeded by the other 3 adding up to 60%.
The only thing we should be agreeing on is Bloom screwed up
GASoxFan: I have no need to twist your words. You said “bogeys priority was to be paid closer to a value commensurate with his services”. So I said we agree his top priority was not to stay in Boston. I don’t get your point with all the percents.
GASoxFan: Actually, I do see what you are saying with the percents, but you have no idea what Bogaerts percents were. The only screw up would be paying Bogaerts or any other free agent until they are almost 41. The Padres screwed up.
So. Since you came around on the percent, and you likewise don’t know how Bogey weighted things either, you cannot say his top priority was getting out of Boston.
That’s exactly why I say I don’t and am not saying his top priority wasn’t staying in boston. We don’t know, and, I won’t assign that to him.
As for the rest, had bloom not botched things, industry impressions are that he would’ve signed for less years and money than the FA bidding went to this offseason. Nobody expected that.
Bogey said many times that he wanted to stay in Boston it’s not even up for debate it’s a fact. Did he opt out out of his 20 million a year contract sure he did he signed a team friendly deal with an opt out. Bloom offered to extend the deal by one year and 30 million making it a 4/90 deal which was a joke that’s a fact. Bogey declined said no more negotiations he was testing free agency but yet again after the season started he said he was still open to negotiating an extension in leu of free agency. It wasn’t until he was convinced that Bloom wasn’t offering anything more that he just started to move on. That’s totally different then a guy such as Mookie who says he testing free agency. These are the facts. Now how much he wanted in an extension that’s up for debate but let’s also look at history here this an ownership group that is quick to point out what the player wanted and how it was a big overpayment and that didn’t happen in this case. I hope these facts help you out in understanding what happened.
It wasn’t even 1/30…. the time remaining on bogeys deal was 3/60 with a vesting 4th/20, or, a total of 4/80 on the deal he opted out of that required a very easily attainable PA count to trigger.
So, all bloom did was offer to remove the vesting requirement on the 4th year and add 10m to the total 4 year deal.
Sounds even worse when you read about that part doesn’t it?
GASoxFan: All you, me and anyone has is opinions and speculation. We differ in opinions. All we really know is that Bogaerts signed with the Padres for more dollars and years than the Red Sox were willing to go to. I am happy to not be paying Bogaerts until he is almost 41. In my opinion, about the worst mistake a team can make is to waste roster spots and salary cap dollars on old, declining players which is what Bogaerts will be for the last 5-6 years of his 11 year contract with the Padres…in my opinion. BTW, the Red Sox offer to Bogaerts had a higher AAV than the Padres. The Red Sox didn’t want to go to all those years.
Everything I said in my previous post is a fact that can be researched through articles and Bogeys quotes. These are not opinions other then what he may of what it would take to extend him that’s speculation but it’s an educated guess.
Bruin: Xander opted out because he wanted a raise in his salary. He opted out of a contract that he signed. We can assume he thought the contract was a good idea when he signed it. Then after 3 years, he didn’t like it anymore and opted out. So did he opt out because of money or being in Boston?? You are assuming that all the media’s reporting is 100% accurate. They are not always accurate. Also, please post a source for the 4 year/$90M offer. If the source is a reporter without a specific source, there is no reason to believe it.
Briun: Xander’s quotes mean nothing. It could all be public relations. It only matters when you sign a contract. He signed with the Padres for more money.
GASoxFan: What was the source for the Red Sox extension offer to Bogaerts? I have yet to see a good source for that.
Like I said the mistake with Xander was a colossal one made by Bloom when he offered to tack on one year and and 30 million making it a 4/90 contract it was well under market.
Bruin: If Bloom wants Marcelo Mayer at SS in 2-3 years, it makes sense to offer Xander a low value contract in terms of both years and dollars. If Xander is not in the future plans for SS, a low ball offer makes sense and is not a colossal mistake. That’s my opinion.
but you have no idea what Bogaerts percents were.
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Spot on correct. No one knows what Bogaerts or Boras were asking for. That’s just all speculation for the Bloom haters. If someone has some documentation where Bogaerts says “I offered to sign for $180M/7”, then we have a discussion. Otherwise, it is pure speculation.
It wasn’t until he was convinced that Bloom wasn’t offering anything more that he just started to move on. …These are the facts.
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Did Bogaerts say that? I don’t recall him saying that.
You can do your own research, Google is your friend. However, even if you don’t like Heyman:
http://www.nypost.com/2022/04/13/red-sox-far-apart-in-xander-bogaerts-rafael-devers-contract-talks
then do you like ESPN:
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/35265339/mlb-free-agency-red-sox-xander-bogaerts-rafael-devers
Or as has been reported here:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/12/chaim-bloom-discusses-xander-bogaerts-rafael-devers-extensions.html
The 1yr 30m addition to the 3/60 guaranteed remaining on the existing deal, which was a 4/80 with the option to begin with, is where 4/90 came from and why it was such an affront.
Believe me, if there was some gross inaccuracy to it the same exact figure wouldn’t be used by all the news outlets for over a year.
At this point you probably don’t get that smoking gun Joe, you’d have to read what little came from bogeys camp, best source (not saying it’s a GOOD one) is from when the 4/90 story broke and various publications discussed what those close to Bogey was expressing.
There’s 3 reasons for that:
1) Bogey – he was always something of a class act, and, would defer contract negotiation quotes to his agents. He isn’t the type of guy who, now with a new team, will come out and say ‘man, I liked my old team/city… had they offered me 100m less a year before id still be there…’
2) Bogey’s agents – they won’t admit to almost misreading the market for 40% and having tried to get their guy signed for 120m less just 4 months before a massive haul. That’s bad press for other/future clients to read.
3) red sox – No way. Just NO WAY do they admit to yet another misread and stoke the flames of the fan base about how sideways the whole process went and how they could’ve locked Bogey up for less than their final offer was just because bloom was cheap.
Maybe in 15 years a book will come out from someone in ownership detailing their 30 or 40 years at that point with the red sox, and a juicy tidbit will surface, albeit with a grain of salt as well.
But for now, nope, smoking gun on this one is hiding where they dumped Hoffa.
GASoxFan: Thanks. Those articles do not name any sources for extension offers made to Bogaerts. So, why should I believe they are accurate? I did see the following from the ESPN article which supports that Bogaerts wanted to see what was available in free agency:
“Before signing his first extension, Bogaerts told his agent, Scott Boras, that he wanted to stay in Boston. This time, though, he expressed a desire to explore free agency.
“I understand myself better,” Bogaerts told Boras. “I have more of a view of free agency. I want to look into it and see what’s available for me. I want to win, and I want to win now.”
This discussion has made me realize that, if Bloom wants Marcelo Mayer at SS in 2-3 years, it makes sense to offer Bogaerts a low value contract in terms of both years and dollars and that is not a colossal mistake. So, if we say the reported extension offers are accurate, that is fine with me because I want Mayer at SS instead of an aging, declining Bogaerts.
And if Mayer is a BUST like so many ‘touted prospects’ you still want him in 3 years? No matter how bad he stinks?
It’s a mistake to let proven all star talent walk because maybe there’s a chance in a few years down the road that some a-level prospect might have a chance to make the mlb team, and, even smaller chance he actually produces.
But, the wanting to win is at odds with any bloom team, and, the win now isn’t supported by what bloom was showing at the trade deadline or since either.
GASoxFan: These are the big decisions a GM and POBO need to make. I like the approach of building a contender from the farm system. I think it can lead to more championships in the long run. At the trade deadlines, Bloom has been holding tight to prospects which supports that he values building the farm system more than winning now. I don’t think he has traded any significant prospects this offseason or last offseason. He signs free agents to 1 or 2 year deals which people don’t like. It looks like this is what is going on.
But, in 2019, they HAD those young, controllable mlb players on the roster with years of control left.
Did they go for it and build around them? No. It was bargain bin scrounging, buying bad contracts for prospects, etc. But they also didn’t trade away that control to accelerate the prospect collection.
Mostly, they rode out the controlled years while not going for it, implying that when the NEXT group of youngsters came up maybe they would finally go for it? Makes no sense.
GASoxFan: That is an interesting theory. I guess we will need to see what happens. I doubt Bloom would build a young core for years and not fill any holes through free agency. I would have liked to have traded Bogaerts, but it looks like they kept him to avoid triggering a sensitive fan base, but it didn’t work. They cried anyway. It looks like Bloom thinks he can compete and build the farm system at the same time. So, he does things that support each direction and that bothers a lot of people, including you it looks like. It is a valid complaint. I would prefer to totally tank to rebuild the farm system more quickly as I have said before. I like that Bloom is not piling up bad contracts which are or will be a waste of roster space and cap dollars like the Yankees. As long as you avoid this, I think most problems are short-term problems. In the end, I have not lost all faith and patience with Bloom so far. It looks like you have.
I lost patience with bloom for good by the middle of the 21-22 offseason… well, technically at the 21 trade deadline, but, yeah.
Just curious who all saw the video clips posted of the winter weekend where everyone repeated booed bloom and ownership, even getting the heckler yelling out Dave Dombrowski over bloom and getting laughs…
One thing is clear – signing Devers didn’t mollify the fanbase
I like Christian Arroyo I think he could be a steal with the big caveat is can he stay healthy? The guy came into the league in 2017 and has 786 plate appearances in that whole time. Let’s see if he can even get to 500 at bats in a season before talking about an extension this will be a big year for him to see if he can stay on the field.
Yeah that was a bad deal on SD’s part. The point ppl are making is if Bloom hadn’t lowballed him so bad it didn’t have to get to that point. If they had simply offered him what they ended up offering i the first place he’d be our starting SS.n
Boxscore: I simply don’t believe that. This is Bogaerts last big pay day. The smart move is to see what kind of money is available in free agency. The quote from Bogaerts I posted above shows that Bogaerts wanted to see what was available in free agency.
I go back to before Rico Petrocelli, so I’ve been through a lot over the decades.
This team has completely bypassed the notion of building your defense up the middle. They don’t have a true full time catcher, they don’t have a true full time second baseman, shortstop or even center fielder. They’re splicing together a bunch of players who can stand or squat in those spots.
I wish they would at least sign a shortstop. Have one those positions set. I like Arroyo and I even like Kiki and I can tolerate McGuire. But you had Xander at shortstop set, for better or worse till free agency departure. Replace the position holder.
This team has one it all with Pokey Reese, Julio Lugo, and Steven Drew.
We don’t need a star at that position.
Hazyzee… man you make me look like a rookie… all the way back to Rico…. Well I for one lost it when the traded Nomar… especially for Cabrera… and Dougie… glad I wasn’t the GM!!! While I was alive for Rico let’s just say Rooster was about my time…
olmtiant, I was the best man at a wedding of a Red Sox fan to a Yankee fan on the day Nomar was traded. Makes it easy to remember their anniversary. The youngsters there were in tears but us older guys were kid of willing to see him go because he was so unhappy. None of us expected the final result, that’s for sure!
Pokey Reese. There’s a name I haven’t heard in awhile. That 04 team is my favorite.
I go back to Milt Bolling at shortstop and have seen the Sox win championships with journeymen shortstops. Bogaerts is gone. Live with it.
PK, Milt was traded after I was born and I’m sure I cried that day, but not because he was traded. Because I was a tiny bugger.
as a yankee fan i sympathize with frustration over infield construction. both teams need infield prospects to step up ahead of schedule. FWIW i’m bullish on arroyo
While infield construction is bad, the OF is possibly worse. It’s a tough call. Then the backstop is a collection of real wildcards that lack good track records to base much off of, scary to turn over the pitching staff to