With the 2023 MLB regular season 60% complete, here are three things we’ll be keeping an eye on around the baseball world throughout the day today:
1. Hall of Fame Induction Weekend:
The Hall of Fame induction ceremony for the class of 2023 is set to take place this weekend, with Fred McGriff and Scott Rolen set officially join the ranks of Hall of Famers enshrined in Cooperstown. 50 Hall of Famers will be in attendance in total, with the full list of participants available through the National Baseball Hall of Fame website. A variety of programming leading up to the induction ceremony is scheduled on MLB Network throughout the weekend. The ceremony itself will take place on Sunday at 12:30pm CT and can be watched via MLB Network, MLB.com, MLB.TV, or through the MLB app.
2. Mejia to undergo MRI:
Rays catcher Francisco Mejia exited yesterday’s game with the Orioles after the sixth inning after seemingly injuring his knee on a play at the plate in the fourth inning. Following the game, manager Kevin Cash told reporters, including Kristie Ackert of the Tampa Bay Times, that Mejia was undergoing an MRI to determine the severity of the injury, which Cash suggested could be a sprain. The only extra catcher on the club’s 40-man roster is Rene Pinto, who Ackert notes is currently with the Florida Complex League on a rehab assignment.
If Mejia misses time and Pinto isn’t ready to go, the club’s other Triple-A options are Blake Hunt, Roberto Alvarez, and Nick Dini. Of the three, only Dini has past experience in the majors. If Mejia’s injury proves to be significant, it could incentivize the club to swing a deal for a catcher ahead of the trade deadline. Joey Bart of the Giants and Yan Gomes of the Cubs were the only two catchers to appear on MLBTR’s Top 50 Deadline Trade Candidates list earlier this month, though Tom Murphy of the Mariners and Austin Hedges of the Pirates both received additional mentions.
3. Cubs infielders getting healthy:
Some positive injury news from the north side of Chicago today, as infielder Nick Madrigal is headed for a rehab assignment with Triple-A Iowa, per MLB.com. The 26 year old has been on the injured list since the beginning of the month with a hamstring strain. Madrigal isn’t the only infielder who could return to the lineup in the near future, as MLB.com adds that 2023 All Star Dansby Swanson could be activated from the 10-day injured list during this weekend’s series against the Cardinals. Swanson has been out with a bruised heel for just over two weeks to this point.
In 167 trips to the plate this season, Madrigal has hit .278/.335/.364 with a wRC+ of 95 while primarily playing solid defense at both second and third base. Madrigal struggled badly in the early part of the season to the point where he was optioned to Triple-A in mid-May, but since returning to the big leagues he’s improved dramatically with a .328/.408/.466 slash line in 19 games. Swanson, on the other hand, has slashed a solid .258/.343/.409 (108 wRC+) in 367 plate appearances with the Cubs to go along with stellar defense at shortstop but had cooled off in the weeks prior to his injury, with an uninspiring .237/.297/.330 line in his last 30 games.
I was fortunate enough to be in attendance for Fred McGriff’s final home run. Absolutely crushed it. I stood and applauded along with an elderly man a few rows ahead.
I was there when Julio Cruz stole his 300th career base. They stopped the game so Julio could pull the base from the ground and hold it over his head like he was Rickey Henderson. Then a grounds crewman came out and switched the base with a new one.
Living just outside Toronto I got to see a fair amount of McGriff growing up. What a pretty swing. He also owns one of the best nicknames of all time.
Just a fluke occurrence, I happened to get tickets to an Indians game when they opened their new stadium. It was the last series of the season (The Indians had a sellout streak when the stadium opened). I was able to watch Albert Belle become the only player in Major League History to hit 50 HRs AND 50 Doubles in the same season! That’s a Hall of Fame worthy feat.
Just like Ritchie Allen, who should also be in the HOF, the media didn’t like them. That’s what’s kept them out all these years. They’ll probably get in long after their dead by the veterans committee. And how long does Shoeless Joe’s family have to wait until he gets in? He was given a life’s sentence not to be involved in bb. He was the only hitter Ty Cobb feared to take the batting title away from him.Shoeless Joe died in the ’50’s. How much longer does his family have to wait?
Maybe if Pete Rose gets in, then the ancient people in power who have trouble taking a p!ss will allow for sports betting so I can catch up to the runaway cost of living
Not sure about HOF worthy, but there’s absolutely no doubt Belle should have been the AL MVP in 1995! One of the biggest slights of all time that the writers awarded MO Vaughn the MVP.
Just like Ritchie Allen, who should also be in the HOF, the media didn’t like them.
===============================
Belle shouldn’t even get a ticket to the HOF, let alone get voted in.
Allen, OTOH, should’ve been a 1st ballot HOF. He is 27th all-time in RC+, which alone should get him in. But the 26 in front of him includes 2 PEDs users, 8 players with less than 5,000 PAs, and 3 active players whose RC+ might decline as they age.
For the 11-year period from 1964-1975, he has the highest RC+ in baseball, with his 163 being 5 points better than McCovey, Robinson and Aaron (who were older), and 13 points ahead of Stargell, who was his contemporary and a very good comp.
The writers, imo, don’t know that much about BB. Even with Rolen, 89.8% of the writers didn’t think he was a HOFer in his first vote. It was only after seeing a few other writers voting for him that they decided to look at Baseball Reference to see who he was.
There’s a lot of Rose’s stuff in the HOF. Why not take those out and give them back to hi if he”s such a villain? I can see why he’s not in the hall. Nobody from the Black Sox is in although, come on, put Shoeless Joe in already. But it doesn’t matter if Rose has a plaque in the hall. Anyone who knows bb knows that he is one. Anyone who is the all-time hits leader ahead of the great Ty Cobb is a HOF’er.
Crazy numbers aside, your opinion is right. Just because he avoided media should be no reason to leave Allen out. Where the hell is the voter’s committee? They don’t even consider Ritchie or Joe Jackson.
“will allow for sports betting”
There has been strides in that. It’s not federally banned any more but I remember reading an article about 10 years ago when Chris Christie started that lawsuit to allow sports betting that if it was allowed to happen it could open the door for states to have more rights over the federal government like abortion and gun rights.
It’s become more and more obvious that betting happens by players far more than we know of. The NFL has had its recent issues and European soccer typically has a scandal every few years especially at the lower levels when players don’t get paid much like in the time of the black soxs. I can see Jackson getting in before Rose as Rose has some other stains against his image and in todays world people are so afraid of cancel culture. Rose is also more known to people who don’t watch the sport as his image is more recent in peoples eyes than Jackson. Ex Pete Rose is in the WWE HoF.
It’s all a holdover from puritanical times which allow church and state to be blurred. It’s similar to states that don’t sell alcohol on Sundays. There’s no rational justification, but people go along with it and politicians are seldom brave enough to object to it.
Hey Chicago what do you say, who are you going to trade today?
This was probably directed at Cubs fans, but the White Sox are still a Chicago team, so I’ll say nobody yet, but Giolito, Graveman, Middleton, Kelly, Lynn, and if we’re lucky, someone will give something of value for TA.
Stroman
Bellinger
Leiter
If someone wants Smyly, Madrigal, Wisdom, or Fulmer, they’re available.
I think the Cubs are stuck with Mancini until they jettison him into the wild blue yonder.
Speaking of which, I’d like to jettison Ben Verlander and Ali McCann from Baseball Reference.
No one on either the Cubs or White Sox should be untouchable. The Southsiders can get significant returns if Cease and Robert are available. But that’s obviously a huge decision for the front office to make. Both teams are masters of lackluster baseball.
Scott Rolen…inductee in the Hall of Very Good.
Rolen ranks #102 all-time in bWAR at 70.1, ahead of Tony Gwynn, John Smoltz, Jim Palmer, and Carlton Fisk. Just a little behind Johnny Mize, Derek Jeter, Jim Thome, and Frank Thomas. If that’s not HOF territory to you, what is?
His offense wasn’t elite like many of those players I just listed, but he was a heck of a defender. I think he deserves it.
And for the record, I and many other fans are happy McGriff is finally getting inducted. His career bWAR? 52.6. If he deserves it, Rolen deserves it more.
I’m happy with McGriff in the HOF also. Long overdue.
If you’re qualifying defense then Omar Vizquel should be in as well.
Too many truly borderline players getting elected over the last decade or so. Harold Baines? Really? Jim Kaat? Jack Morris is another borderline case.
Vizquel is not deserving. He probably would have been manager of the White Sox if he didn’t do what he did and I won’t get into what he did.
My argument wasn’t an all-or-nothing on the value of defense. Vizquel didn’t provide much offense. Rolen wasn’t elite offensively, but he was very good (career 82 OPS+ for Vizquel vs 122 OPS+ for Rolen). Vizquel shouldn’t be elected and Baines, Kaat, and Morris shouldn’t have been, either. All were good players, but none of them were ever elite, so we agree there.
Vizquel’s percentages were rising at a rate that probably would have gotten to 75% eventually. Then in 2020 he was accused of things that I won’t list here due to the nature of the accusations. His percentages dropped slightly. He was then sued in 2021 for different accusations. I won’t list those because of the nature. His percentages then dropped significantly and I believe his chances are now gone. I don’t know what has come of these incidents but let’s just say that even being accused of these is pretty unrecoverable.
Try looking at Vizquel’s offensive stats again. Those, plus his top-tier defense, should have gotten him in the Hall long ago.
But no, let’s put cheaters like David Ortiz in. Weak offensive stats, and couldn’t play defense if his life depended on it.
Vizquel hit and stole bases but because of what he did after Baseball in the minors he is out of luck.
McGriff? Really? Rolen? Really? Sometimes it’s OK not to vote anyone in.
No it isn’t. There’s 20 or 30 deserving guys that aren’t in yet. If anything, your ballot should be taken away if you don’t vote for 10 guys
Jack Morris was the Dominant Pitcher of his time. Well deserved.
Vizquel has a VERY DARK SIDE that “most” of the public doesn’t know about. This goes back to the early-mid 1990’s. Since the Baseball Hall of Fame has a “character/integrity” clause (qualification), he DEFINITELY doesn’t belong. I’m not talking about a 1-2 time offender either. We all have issues, things in our past (or even present) that are unsavory or wrong. I’m not judging him as a person, but I am pointing out that his (lack of) character disqualifies him from the HOF.
stymeedone: you’re absolutely right. Jack Morris definitely belongs in the Hall. How do I know? Because I SAW him pitch.
Albert Belle shed some light on that when he responded to Vizquel’s book. Yes, that Albert Belle.
Very happy Crime Dog finally got in. He was never fully appreciated during his career because of the number of juicers stealing headlines. For the longest time, HOF voters discounted those guys’ stats, but they never went back and gave a second look to those that did it the right way. Glad it finally happened.
Check out Jim Kaat’s numbers? Borderline? He had almost 300 wins, plus a 3.45 era. Pitched a long career or his era would be 3.20. He might also be the best defensive pitcher ever. He definitely deserves to be in and that is why he got in. Jack Morris was the best pitcher of his time. Led 3 teams to 4 WS titles.
Just goes to show that analytics mean nothing.
bWAR is not the barometer you measure for the Hall of Fame. Just because someone says it should be does not mean it’s correct.
Scott Rolen is Hall of Very Good. Brooklyn62 is absolutely correct.
So your measure is…? Eye test? HR’s? Major awards?
I can understand an argument that WAR is not the be-all, end-all stat for this, but when you have arguably the top defensive 3B ever who was also 22% better (by OPS+) at the plate than his peers over the course of a lengthy career, that’s HOF to me. If you’re looking at offense only, I agree, but top of the scale defense should be considered, too.
Just because Rolen doesn’t have inner-circle noteriety doesn’t mean he’s undeserving. Here are some reasons why:
-There are only five third basemen with 2000+ hits, 300+ home runs, and an OPS+ of 120 or greater. Those five include Mike Schmidt, Eddie Matthews, Chipper Jones, George Brett, and Rolen.
-There is also only five 3Bs with 300+ HRS and 100+ SBS: Rolen, Schmidt, Brett, Jones, and Adrian Beltre
-Defensive runs saved became an offical statstic in 2003. Scott Rolen is one of only 21 current players with 100 or more DRS. Rolen was already 28 and six years into his MLB career when the stat offically became recognized. Rolen ranks 16th.
-Only three third basemen have won more Gold Gloves than Rolen: Brooks Robinson, Nolan Arenado, Mike Schmidt. Rolen has eight. The next closest active players are Evan Longoria and Matt Champan with three.
-Other accolades: seven all-star games, a Rookie of the Year, one Silver Slugger, and a World Series ring.
-Other statistics that support his case: tenth all time in 3B bWAR and JAWS, averages the same WAR/162 games as Chipper Jones, one of 6 3Bs with 500+ doubles.
Rolen was never considered one of the best players in baseball. Not even at his peak in 2004. He was also injury-prone. Being injured and sitting never factors into the “WAR” argument, but by not playing I bet that hurt his team.
Now, your counter argument will be “well then his WAR was really high for a player who did not play a lot”. Yes. All the more reason to dive deeper. Strong defender, but were the metrics correct? Why do pro-analytic people favour the walk over an RBI groundout when a walk sets up the double play? The metrics do not always tell the best story.
My measuring stick is Gene Tenace
He should be the worst guy in Cooperstown (so kick out Jesse Haines, Pie Traynor, George Kelly, probably a couple others too)
Rolen and McGriff were better than Gene Tenace was
Rolen doesn’t have inner circle notoriety because he only had two seasons where he earned it (2003-2004).
Many names you mention in your first two points did things Rolen did not or could not do. That matters.
Hall of Very Good. No doubt you wanted him on your team to win. Staying healthy matters, being the best player in the game matters, hard to say whether he was the best at his position for any length of time.
Gene Tenace should not be in Cooperstown unless it’s a family trip.
Not making an out is always better than making an out.
1 run is always better than scoring zero.
BizzyDat: You really should read more about Pie Traynor. And, if the entire Yankees team of the 1920’s can be voted in by the pro-yankee committee, then Gene Tenace definitely belongs.
So your measure is…? Eye test? HR’s? Major awards?
================================
That’s my whole argument with folks that don’t like WAR. It’s a baseline statistic that tries to capture both offense and defense. If anyone has anything better, I would be glad to hear it.
He’s still #14 in HRs with guys that actually played 3rd. He still has 8 GG and is considered one of the best fielders in history. That alone is Hall-worthy.
Whoa, much better analysis than what I provided. Kudos!
“That alone is Hall-worthy”.
Proves Brooklyn’s point. Lowering the bar to say that alone is Hall-worthy speaks on how you judge the hall of fame. If you’re very good, you’re in according to JoeBrady.
Being 14th in homeruns for 3B is not good enough. Gold Gloves? As good a defender as he was (and he certainly was), there are many average defenders with multiple GG awards. It’s like saying McGriff only went to 5 all-star games. An argument can be made Beltre deserved GGs over Rolen, and thus a popularity contest pushes a very good player in the Hall.
Staying healthy matters, but he still averaged 136 games and 555 plate appearances from his rookie year through 2010. Despite that, he has multiple notable counting stat milestones (such as home runs, hits, SBS), and multiple seasons with 100+ RBIs (five to be exact). That’s not even considering WAR.
It depends if one run or more than one run is needed and how many outs are left. Generally, extending the inning by not making outs will score more runs.
I don’t care if analytics show everyone and his kid brother should make the hall. When Mike Schmidt played, the fewest amount of position players in the hall was 3b. I got to see Schmidt play. I’ve never seen an all-around player like him. He could hit. He could field. One year he changed his stance in the batter’s box where he reach almost every pitch. Maldonado and Arenado are great 3b, but nobody was better than Schmidt.
1 run is always better than none. No guarantee for a big inning. If your thought process worked, Oakland A’s would have multiple World Series titles in the Billy Beane era.
mlb1225, you are citing a Hall of Very Good player. Proving Brooklyn’s point. Very good numbers.
@its_happening I didn’t know kw George Brett, Chipper Jones, Adrian Beltre, Eddie Matthews, and Mike Schmidt were only Hall of very good players. Thought most saw them as the very best 3B in the sport’s history.
Shows that analytics prove nothing. If you honestly believe Rolen was a better player than any of the ones you mentioned, it’s time to throw the calculator away.
He wasn’t in the same league as most of them with a bat, but he was easily the best defender of the ones I listed. You can change a game just as easily by making a diving stop on a shot down the line as you can by hitting a double.
Which many 3B can do. That does not make Rolen a deserving Hall of Famer.
Previous post was directed to hyraxwithaflamethrower several posts back.
When you do it better than perhaps anybody who’s ever played your position, while also hitting solidly above average, it does.
You disagree, that’s fine. It comes down to how much his defense is valued and how much better you believe he was than his peers. I think he prevented a number of runs with his glove and that has the same effect as if he’d driven in a run.
Rolen ranks #102 all-time in bWAR at 70.1,
==========================
FG has him at 69.9, good for #10 among 3B’s. If I took the time to extrapolate based on PAs, he probably moves up to maybe 5th place. He belongs
Rolen was a better player than Derek Jeter. He’s an easy no-brainer choice for the Hall. You people with your “eye test” opinions don’t matter. Analytics rule the day.
WOW! Perhaps one of the dumbest comments I’ve read today! I absolutely despise the Yankees,but one can not deny the greatness of Jeter both offensively and defensively and in clutch situations. To even consider Rolen being a better player than Jeter is absurd!
That’s why Oakland and Cleveland win zeros of titles Hank. It’s more than analytics. Way more.
Still not a case, JoeB.
If Scott Rolen can get in then Ron Cey should be in!
Except Cey’s value was much lower overall. Rolen was a little better offensively and much better defensively.
People vastly underestimating Rolen. He’s a no doubter. Arguably best defensive 3B in history.
Look up Pie Traynor. If you weren’t fortunate enough to see Mike Schmidt play, you wouldn’t think as highly of Rolen. And I don’t mean by analytics. I mean but what you see. The talent has been greatly diluted by expansion.
We haven’t had expansion for 25-30 years. It’s time to dilute the talent again.
Schmidt benefited from expansion more than Rolen did. The player pool increased 20% in 1969 and another 8% in 1977.
Schmidt entered in 1972 so you can eliminate your 1969 point. That’s like saying Rolen benefitted from the 1993 expansion. And then 1998.
But, definitely expansion. Something all parties should have agreed on at the last CBA to generate new money.
Did you see Rolen play? I saw them both play. Do you know who said Rolen was better defensively than Schmidt? Schmidt said that. True or not, the point is made. Schmidt had great respect for Rolen’s defensive talent.
Rolen was fantastic at 3rd base. Having him at third was the only reason the Cardinals were able to win a championship with no range Eckstein at short. Eckstein cheated towards second all year while Rolen successfully covered part of the shortstop range.
Rolen was a far better player than Pie Freakin’ Traynor. Obviously Schmidt towers above them all.
What’s Schmidt supposed to say? You’re good, but you’re not as good as me.”
Did you ever see Pie Freakin’ Traynor play? Then you have no idea if he was better or worse than Rolen.
I can’t comment on how good Traynor was, but I can tell you that Rolen cleared him easily as a hitter, so unless Traynor was the best fielder ever by a massive margin Rolen was easily better overall. Too many defense-only players in the Hall. Rolen may have been defense-first, but a career OPS beyond .850 is hardly poor hitting. If Rolen isn’t in then no way should guys like Mazeroski or Ozzie, and certainly not all those old-timers stiffs voted in.
Dark Side: When Traynor played it was a different day than when Rolen played. Traynor had to deal with worse fields, gloves and other equipment than Rolen. When the ball is bouncing all over the place on inferior fields and Traynor was still able to field it and throw the runner out, that’s a great third baseman.
Congratulations to the Crime Dog. He was always a Hall of Famer for me
Really happy Crime Dog is getting in. It’s about time.
The rays will be able to find a back up back stop like Austin Hedges for next to nothing.. other that getting next to nothing for him, that’s what the Rays will get from him…
unless the Rays decide they’re serious about contending this year…
If TB is willing to give the Pirates anything at all for Hedges, they should take it. Even a 1991 Saturn with the transmission laying on the ground next to it will suffice.
Yan Gomes is having a great year perfect fit for the Rays
Except for when he ruined Drew Smyly’s Perfect Game
That was a bang bang play doubt either gets the runner if no collision
Hopefully the Cubs trade Stroman and Smyly and bring up Ben Brown and Jordan Wicks so we can see if they could be used next year
Maybe Brown in September when the roster is expanded. Let Wicks simmer until next season.
It is puzzling that the cubs haven’t even talked to Stroman. Maybe Stroman made a mistake by saying he wants to stay. That gives the FO an advantage. If they keep him, the cubs can low-ball him because they know he wants to stay. I hope Stroman goes to a team, preferably a contender, who will appreciate his ability and maybe even help his new team win a WS.
Without Bonds, it’s the Hall of Shame.
Would you elect Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, A-Rod, Palmerio, etc, too?
McGwire and Sosa weren’t HoFs without PEDs, but A Rod and the others probably were. There was a clear jump for Sosa and McGwire.
So you think Bonds with Pittsburgh was the HOF player and what happened in ‘Frisco on should be ignored?
How would you know if A-Rod would make it without steroids? His high school teammates said he started using in high school.
Bonds last 3 years in Pittsburgh when it comes to MVP voting: first, second, first. I would say that’s HOF trajectory right there.
Discount the PEDs, and he is a HoF guy. I also know guys who saw Bill Gates once rob a homeless person. Maybe, the guy just wants attention, just like the ARod High School guys.
All his consecutive 1.000+ OPS seasons were HoF worthy. Give an average MLB guy PEDs and see if he can put up 1.400 OPS seasons and 232 walks to 41 strikeouts. How about 40/40 and all those 30/30 seasons? Defense?
The fact remains that A-Rod never saw the same spike in prodution as the other PED users. Why is that? Why did he keep risking his career by using them?
A Rod is likely still on PEDs.
So A-Rod puts up 1.000+ OPS while on steroids but the average guy needs to put up a 1.400 OPS to show that steroids matter?
The fact remains the evindence points to A-Rod being on steroids his entire career. We will never know his natural ability the way we know Bonds was already a HOF player before steroids. There’s no ignoring the Bonds performance spike when he should have been declining.
I was talking about Bonds with the 1.400. Rodriguez and Bonds both had 40 40 seasons. Rodriguez was a shortstop, not an outfielder.
There are a couple of things that Bonds, McGwire and Sosa are MOST gulity of:
1. Hitting more than 61 home runs in a season. If they never “broke” that record, nobody would care. I’m sure that there are players in the Hall that topped out in the 50s that we using.
2. None of them did the jason Giambi/Andy Pettitte “I’m sorry” thing that they did it….(and Bonds is slightly doing it now in a round about way with the “those weren’t the rules thing” statements recently).
If Bonds topped out at 59 homers and hit 627 in his career he’d be in.
You know who loved that Sosa and McGwire each hit over 61 homerruns? MLB owners at the time.
MLB slept in the same bed as PEDs. After the 1994 strike, PEDs brought a lot of attention back to the game. PEDs happened because they helped fix the game. And MLB loved that part.
Games were played with PEDs and who knows for certain who did or did not use. Are we supposed to act like those games didn’t happen? It makes a mockery of the whole generation that took place.
I say you let them all in if the stats merrit election and stop cherry-picking. Every generation had some sort of drug issue and many of those users are already in the Hall of Fame.
Read this: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_baseball
“Slept in the same bed as” could be a perfect defense for a lot of people these days…
Bonds probably was, then he had to ruin it with PEDs. I hope he never gets in. Clemens, I don’t understand. If I have the right guy, he made comments that the media took offense at. And that keeps him out of the Hall despite his HOF achievements.
Bob Costas said that at the end of a particular season Bonds looked big but nothing really out of the ordinary for a player who lifts weights. Then the next spring training Bonds admitted his shoe size had gone up by five. Costas said he was enormous compared to the guy he had seen months before. Protein powder ain’t gonna do that.
I would elect A-Rod as the 1st inductee into the Hall of Fake Plastic Sports Personalities. Got a plaque waiting for Russell Wilson when he hangs it up.
Yes. FP Santangelo, Matt Lawton, and Jason Grimsley juiced. Why didn’t they put up HOF numbers?
Career minor leagers without steroids.
Because it makes you better and they were worse then the Bonds/A-Rod types pre-juicing?
The more they dilute the HOF with good players instead of great the less interest people will have of it. I mean, who wants to read about Harold Baines and his one year leading the league in slugging, or Rolen and his 2,000 hits and 300 homers?
You do know that defense matters, too, right?
I have to agree with you. Defensive prowess has a big tendency to be overlooked. Rolen is still borderline for me.
There are 10 HOF third basemen with a lower WAR than Rolen. Once Beltre goes in, there will be 9 HOF third basemen with a higher WAR,
Ozzie Smith would agree.
Rolen’s an easy HoF call. Stop ignoring half the sport, the one you play with a glove on.
In terms of rate stats, couting stats, and whatever else you can possibly think of, Scott Rolen is almost identical to Ron Santo. Doubt there would be much argument for Ron Santo’s inclusion into the Hall.
Ahem, Santo was inducted in 2012. Not a clear-cut no-doubter like, say, Mike Schmidt, but a defensible choice. Similar to Rolen in that respect.
I have an argument with that. Average at best. Best heel-clicker since Michael Flatley.
The Rays should trade for one of the Cardinals catchers and maybe a starter while they’re at it.
One of the greatest injustices in sports has finally been corrected. Player committee is the best thing to happen to the hall. Congrats to the crime dog and to heck with the media.
McGriff was a no doubt HOF for me. Baines not even close. Rolen borderline.
Rolen is borderline until i remember watching him d for 2 years in his early thirties.
I can only imagine how incredible his d was in his 20es.
Easily one of the greatest defensive players of all time, not just his generation or position. EVER.
Offense was decent but just enough to push him over the top imo.
If it wasn’t for the greedy player strike in 1994 McGriff would have easily passed the magic 500 homer mark and been in the HOF long ago. He was a dominant player for years and is definitely HOF caliber.
Barry Bonds was also 65 hits shy of 3,000. If only they played out 1994. Greedy owners ruined a lot
So did PEDs.
But he was just a lowly first basemen and his neck didnt double in size over that era. so the too smart and cool for school media overlooked him even though he checked almost every box and was the antithesis of roids.
Does Jose Reyes ever make it to the Hall? I understand hits and stolen bases aren’t everything but Jose had more of both.
I would let Reyes in based on a decade of excellence. His hamstrings went when he turned 30ish, and most of his value as a player was tied up in speed, so yeah (yes, Dale Murphy is a HOFer)
Insert eye roll here…
I can’t think of a prominent player less likely to
make the Hall then Jose Reyes.
Chuck Finley
Finlay was an innovator in so many ways. Other owners hated him and I believe they have used their power to keep him out.
Why exactly is Scot Rolen going into the Hall again?
Its HoF day so good ol Pete Rose is across the street selling autographs for $75 a pop. It was $50 last year but with inflation and his gambling addiction his price had to go up.
People act as if the Hall Of Fame all of a sudden became super inclusive to every Hall of Very Good player. When you see Rolen or Baines get elected in, the only comparrison everyone makes is to inner-circle guys. Nobody is here to argue that Rolen is in the same echelon as Mike Schmidt, or that Harold Baines and Roberto Clemente were even close.
The Hall has 271 players. Not every single one of them was the very best of their era. Do you really think Bruce Sutter is up there with Mariano Rivera, Catfish Hunter is in the same tier as Bob Gibson, or that Orlando Cepeda should be regarded as just as good as Albert Pujols? I am not saying these players are bad or undeserving, but Rolen is far from the first player in the Hall’s long history to have been elected in without clear and ovbious HOF numbers.
There’s a myth about diluting the Hall when the facts say it gets harder with each generation to gain entry. Many of those elected prior to the 1980’s couldn’t get in by today’s standards.
I’ve long since thought the HOF curators should take a good look at who exactly is in the Hall. There are a lot of owners and other executives (mostly from the early days of the game) who put themselves in. Most should be thrown out. There’s also a lot of questionable players that should be given the boot. There’s no way some of the more recent players belong in a museum where Willie Mays and Ty Cobb are enshrined. It will never happen but there are a number of displays in the HOF that you can pass right by and not have missed anything.
Barry Bonds is the greatest ever!
The greatest roid user ever.
Do you think any of these guys of the era were clean? Bonds is still the greates among all users of steroids, HGH’s and even greenies. And better than drunk frie
Yes, I do. Maddux, Glavine, Griffey, Jr., Frank Thomas, some more. I believe there were some who weren’t caught, but I also believe there were some fantastic players who were clean.
Do you think any of these guys of the era were clean? Bonds is still the greates among all users of steroids, HGH’s and even greenies. And better than the drunk friend of mobs.
To end the dispute, they should open a new HOF on the south side of Chicago for all substance abusers (PEDs, HGH, etc.) Visitors will be given Kevlar body suits after they park their cars -which will promptly be stolen – for an enjoyable afternoon with you and the family. (WARNING: Children should be left at home where they will have a better chance of reaching adulthood.)
Always enjoyed watching McGriff hit, so consistent offensively before PED’s brought the offensive explosion to MLB.
Ah, time for the annual p!ss!ng contest about the Hall of Fame. Let’s lower the character bar to zero so everyone can get in. An argument by the typical six year old, “But maaaaaaaaammm, Jimmy’s mom said it was okay.” Stupid and worthless logic. Character counts, too bad for the big babies. On stats? I get it, I figured out how to calculate my batting average on a slide rule when I was in Little League and I’ve made plenty of money as a professional mathematician. My actuarial field is all about predictive analytics, so I can twiddle my thumbs with numbers all day long. Scott Rolen is a Hall of Famer on many levels, same with McGriff. Honestly, nothing and no one is cheapened by their election. Congratulations to two fine ball players.
Why is McGriff getting in? He’s not even as good as Carlos Delgado and he did not get in. His defense wasn’t amazing, just avg.. Great for fanboys, but not good for HoF, with the bar being set much lower.
While I do think we would have seen Scott Rolen in a better light if not for the steriod users, he is definetly not a hall of famer. If you have to keep looking at all these fancy stats to justify someone to get in, you probably are wrong. Scott Rolen was solid, no doubt about that. With that said, has anyone ever spent money at a game because they wanted to see the “hall of famer” Scott Rolen play? Doubt it. Just looking at modern day players, guys like Pujols, Verlander, Harper, Scherzer, Miggy, Kershaw, Arenado, Trout etc. These guys in their primes are household names that people come watch the games for. The Hof has been overtaken by analytical nerds that think they know everything
You act as if Rolen is the first good player who got in who wasn’t the best of the very best. It’s happened all throughout the Hall of Fame’s history. Even then, you don’t need the overly advanced stats to see why he deserves to be in the Hall:
-8 Gold Gloves (third most by a 3B)
-Over 2000 hits, 300 home runs, and 100 stolen bases as a third baseman. Milestones only accomplished by Rolen, Schmidt, Beltre, Jones, and Brett
-One of 5 3Bs with 2000+ hits, 300+ HRS, and an OPS+ of 120 or greater
-Only third baseman with 500+ doubles and 300+ HRS
-Over 100 defensive runs saved
-Better career fielding % at third base (.968) than Mike Schmidt (.955), and about on par with Brooks Robinson (.971)
-Similar counting stats and rate stats to Ron Santo
-7 ASGs, a silver slugger, ROY award, and WS ring
The more advanced stats, like WAR, JAWS, WAR7, are just icing on the cake for him.
-8 Gold Gloves (third most by a 3B)
Voted on. Not necessarily the best. Popularity contest award.
-Over 2000 hits, 300 home runs, and 100 stolen bases as a third baseman. Milestones only accomplished by Rolen, Schmidt, Beltre, Jones, and Brett
Sounds like Hall of Very Good numbers.
-One of 5 3Bs with 2000+ hits, 300+ HRS, and an OPS+ of 120 or greater
Sounds like Hall of Very Good numbers.
-Only third baseman with 500+ doubles and 300+ HRS
Played in newer parks with smaller foul territory to prolong at bats, and some smaller parks allowing for more offense.
-Over 100 defensive runs saved
Probably.
-Better career fielding % at third base (.968) than Mike Schmidt (.955), and about on par with Brooks Robinson (.971)
Questionable, as scorekeepers rarely call errors in today’s era. Very soft scorekeeping.
-Similar counting stats and rate stats to Ron Santo
Ron Santo should not be in the Hall of Fame either.
-7 ASGs, a silver slugger, ROY award, and WS ring
Hall of Very Good accomplishments.
@mlb1225 thats like saying Reggie Smith or Lou Whitaker should be in the hof. These guys should be compared to the greats, not the guys that barely got in
At this rate they just might.
McGriff should be scrutinized since he is a 1B. Schilling has a higher WAR and he was better than Rolen.
Kind of hard to compare a pitcher with a 3B, though I do believe Schilling belongs in the Hall. Whatever you think of his politics, he didn’t cheat on the field and he hasn’t committed a serious crime off it (to my knowledge). Being an a**hole shouldn’t keep you out of the Hall; if it did, Ty Cobb would never have gotten in.
Hey hyrax,I’ve enjoyed your analysis of the Rolen HOF debate, and additional related matter. You’ve got good analytical skills and it would be great to talk baseball and share some beers. Schilling belongs in the HOF.
Delgado is a good comp, he had 13 impactful year while McGriff had 16. I don’t know, it’s a good discussion to have. Rolen kind of compares with Delgado but he plays a tougher position, at least somewhat. Heck, I think Adrian Beltre might be a Hall of Famer. Just don’t rub his head, ok?
McGriff’s vote totals were ridiculous. He should have been in at least by his third year of eligibility.
Yeah, this is way overdue. I can see how he wasn’t a first-ballot guy, but no idea why it took this long.