The Red Sox are firing pitching coach Dave Bush and will not retain third base coach Carlos Febles, reports Alex Speier of the Boston Globe. The club has yet to confirm the news.
Bush has led the Boston pitching staff for four seasons. The Sox hired the former big league right-hander in October 2019. He held the role during Ron Roenicke’s year as interim manager and remained on staff when the Sox re-hired Alex Cora during the 2020-21 offseason.
The Sox have been a below-average run prevention team over the past four seasons. They rank 23rd in ERA during that stretch and finished 21st this year, allowing 4.51 earned runs per nine. That’s not all on the pitching staff. Playing in the AL East has pitted Boston against generally strong offenses. The Sox have also consistently run out a mediocre defensive alignment. Only the Cardinals, Rockies and A’s allowed a higher percentage of batted balls to fall for hits this past season.
From a strikeout and walk perspective, the Red Sox were a middle-of-the-pack group. They ranked 14th with a 23.1% strikeout percentage and 10th in walks, surrendering free passes at an 8.1% clip. Young right-hander Brayan Bello had a reasonably encouraging first full MLB season, although his production dropped markedly in the second half. It was the opposite story for Nick Pivetta, who was dominant late in the season after being bumped from the rotation by mid-May.
Aside from Bello, Boston shuttled through a number of pitchers in the rotation this year. Corey Kluber, James Paxton, Tanner Houck and Chris Sale all dealt with injury issues. That was also true of Garrett Whitlock, who didn’t find the expected level of success upon a move from the bullpen to the rotation. Kutter Crawford also bounced from the relief corps to the starting staff midway through the year. The pitching staff’s flux isn’t necessarily a reflection on Bush’s work — it was always likely to be a high-variance group given Paxton’s and Sale’s injury histories and the inexperience of Whitlock, Houck and Bello as starters — but the Sox will look for a new voice to lead their pitchers moving forward.
Febles has worked in the Boston organization for nearly two decades. He had been on the MLB staff as third base coach since 2018. A former infielder, Febles spent parts of six seasons in the majors with the Royals around the turn of the century.
Good. Those two were not good fit us this year
So, will they fill the positions or wait and let the new POBO fill them?
suit – Cheeky, I like it!
I’ve been calling out those two constantly for the past few weeks, and wrote earlier today wondering what happened with last week’s meetings. I’m just glad they are removed, although I hate when anybody loses their job.
Whomever makes the replacement decisions, just please don’t bring back either Windmill Kim or Send ‘Em In Kim ;O)
I thought it was Wavin Wendell. May he rest in peace
Harry – Oh man, I did not know he passed. Now I feel bad.
Fever – Feebles was the main co-conspirator in the media gate scandal that got dismissed. He is a close friend of Cora and ONE CAN ONLY HOPE that ownership in acts that they should be waiting for the new POBO to do fires Cora along with his cheating buddy.
This is ridiculous that Kennedy is acting like he has a clue. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Kennedy is on a huge ego trip right now and I have ZERO confidence he will make wise decisions. If he fires Cora, then I will support him making other choices.
Febles was definitely a favorite of Cora. I had a front row seat in Tampa when he (Febles) grabbed Devers on the field and slapped him in the face while lecturing him in Spanish, you would have loved that. Haha!
Little known fact, Febles was not only the 3B coach but he was also the infield instructor. And he had been in the organization for 17 years.
Silver lining: It appears someone – probably Romero – is reigning in Cora by making these changes after Cora declared all the coaches would return.
And an even bigger silver lining: Cora hasn’t been given an extension yet. As long as he’s a lame duck manager, there’s hope for us all.
Not for what he did for us…. More for what he couldn’t do that the Dodgers pitching coach did for Brais…..
olmtiant – Snappy Bra response.
Cora deflecting blame…
wjf – True, but in this case the changes were warranted.
Why not stop here….. remove the real issue…. the finger pointer himself.
Cooper – BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SOLD!!!!
I am in an extreme minority here, but I stopped pulling for the Sox (after nearly 30 years of doing so) the moment they rehired Cora. The Astros cheating scandal and the virtually nonexistent punishments “dished out” made me so sick with the MLB in general. Having Cora get a year off slap on the wrist… only to return back with open arms… was just sickening to me.
I guess most other fans either didn’t have an issue with it or care more about the on field results (winning a WS can earn a lot of goodwill naturally). But he inherited an already-good team in 2018 and then proceeded to coach just barely over .500 for the next four years. I don’t think the FO has done him any favors and they did go for a rebuild of sorts… but it’s about time his seat started warming up.
The ALE is far more competitive these days and that doesn’t look to be changing anytime soon. If he misses the playoffs next year, that will make it 4 in 6 seasons.
Trust me. I’m a diehard Sox fan and it has never sat well with me. I hope the new GM gets rid of him if they misstep at all in 24.
Mostly, I’m with you on Cora and I’ve questioned why ownership loves him. Given my dislike for ownership I guess it makes sense that they have a solid relationship. I’ve been a Sox fan long before Henry got into baseball and thus, I refuse to not follow them. I just hate what Henry did to Tom Yawkey who grew up in a different world. If it weren’t for Mr. Yawkey, there might be baseball in Boston but it wouldn’t be the Red Sox. He saved the team for the city. He also did so much for the Jimmy Fund and other charities. Memo to John Henry and the City of Boston: return the street name to Yawkey Way and teach children about how the world changes without trying to rewrite history. Today is a good day for this as while some communities have removed Columbus statues, others are still celebrating today as a holiday.
True, dewey. Henry leans so far left, he can’t stand up. There are times when one needs to use logic over personal feelings. Same with the front office decisions. Cora should never have been allowed back and should have been fired in early September. They could have brought someone (anyone) in to close out the year and show the fans they want to start fresh. Instead, we’ll have Cora and his Spanish Inquisition ruining another season in 2024.
Dewey—Legend has it that Tom Yawkey was racist and showed his racism by refusing to sign Jackie Robinson. But I don’t know if that is true or not. I believe that Jackie Robinson tried out for the Red Sox in April 1945 after being hounded by the Boston sportswriters.
Passed on Willie Mays too.
The Jackie Robinson tryout was a sham. And the Red Sox were the last team to have a black player in the majors. Tom Yawkey was a great sportsman and owner but a shameless racist. He failed to win a single championship. Why celebrate him? The Red Sox 1967 season saved the team. And that was YAZ. And he and Ted loved Tom Yawkey. But neither of them were racists. Check out Ted’s HOF speech. By the way, Ted was half Mexican, and he was ashamed of it. What a messed up situation.
If that’s true, as I have understood it, then removing the Yawkey names in Morse Code from the Green Monster scoreboard and re-naming Yawkey Way was the right thing to do.
I celebrated today by being outside in nature. My family came here in 1635. But there were people here well before them. So today I celebrate those people. Columbus? Nope.
Thanks Milt. I’m proud to be a Democrat but progressives are not democrats as I’m as polar opposite on so many issues.
Fat. Again he grew up I believe in the deep south when the world was split. Character Archie Bunker changed. I realize he was not real but people do changem. We need to look at a full body of work. Not a snapshot in time.
I’ve said my thoughts. We each have different views.
“I’m proud to be a Democrat but progressives are not democrats as I’m as polar opposite on so many issues.”
Dewey, I’m an embarrassed Republican because the current state of the GOP is a ship show. I’m a believer in the institutions as much as private industry. Spent decades in both to know that there is competence and plenty more incompetence in both. The idea of privatization is utterly ridiculous. No fan of big government, but if it helps keep us on track, so be it. What stinks is how small the center has become, we vote out moderates in favor of wing nuts on either side. Truly a bad move.
Dewey—good points. I think you’re right: what tends to happen is that we freeze people in time. I certainly wouldn’t want anyone to condemn me because of a thoughtless comment or action on my part. But in this case, as was previously stated, Tom Yawkey and the Red Sox overall were the last to integrate. However, there was also a lot of pressure from around MLB owners to not sign “minority” players. Maybe Mr. Yawkey caved to the pressure. I really shouldn’t judge the man because I never knew him.
Fat – I didn’t want to enter this discussion, but now I feel I should.
It’s not just Tom’s name that was on the street signs or in morse code on the Monster.
Jean Yawkey did just as much as Tom, if not more, to warrant keeping the Yawkey name in and around Fenway.
Jean co-owned the Red Sox from 1944 to 1976, then ran it herself from 1976 to 1992.
She attended nearly every game, provided baseball gear to thousands of Boston youth baseball players, served as a trustee and chairwoman of the Jimmy Fund, and was a director of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. She was the first woman ever on the HOF’s board. Her legacy remains at the HOF Museum in a permanent exhibit.
But John Henry doesn’t give a crap about any of that, he just wanted to earn brownie points with the liberal community by ridding Fenway of the Yawkey name even though Jean has never been accused of being racist.
And BTW when Jean ran the team by herself for a quarter century, the Red Sox had the 2nd-most wins in MLB.
Fat – There are so many aspects that are never talked about, perhaps due to ignorance or just because certain people want to destroy the Yawkey legacy.
I already posted about one aspect, that the Yawkey name belonged to Jean too.
Another aspect I never hear anyone talk about, the entire city of Boston was extremely racist back then. What kind of treatment and reception do you think African American players would have gotten in Fenway during the 1940’s and early 1950’s? Back then business owners catered to their fanbase, and back then the Red Sox fanbase was mostly racist.
Even the Celtics didn’t have an African American player until the 1950’s.
I’m as polar opposite on so many issues.
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We need more people like you. I am generally RW, but swing far left on issues related to the environment. Way too many people think you have to buy the entire package.
because certain people want to destroy the Yawkey legacy.
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Certain people want to destroy EVERY legacy. Judging people from different eras is never going to work. I’m not sure any major monument in the world was built without slave labor. I’m not sure any major military leader didn’t occasionally massacre people.
Joe – So true, so very very true.
It’s like arresting someone for doing something that was legal at the time.
In the 1800’s it was common for girls between 9-14 to get legally married. Times change, what is deemed acceptable often changes.
mostly – YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All my Boston shirts dating back to the start of the 60s have been permanently shelved until CORA is gone. I’m embarrassed to tell people I am a fan of a franchise that condones what CORA did. The organization has no integrity as long as Cora is associated with it. I still love individual players but the franchise is an embarrassment to me and all ex players I know. Cora deserved a lifetime ban along with Hinch and Beltran. It’s just that simple. They disgraced the sport in a manner far greater than any other indiscretion in the history of the sport.
Wait a minute. Didn’t Cora just say that he and the coaches had a meeting and that all coaches would be back?
Is it just me or does Cora say a lot of things only to have the exact opposite happen shortly after?
That might not have been his call. I don’t recall him having said that, but if he did, that’s what might’ve gotten them fired. Maybe Henry thought this was the new POBO’s call, and pre-empted any controversy by canning them.
Joe – As always I’m happy to help.
google.com/amp/s/www.masslive.com/redsox/2023/10/a…
Asked Monday if he believes staff changes are needed for the Red Sox to improve, Cora said no.
“I don’t believe so,” Cora said. “I think we just have to be better, in a sense. We have to be willing to go and talk to people and adjust our routines. That’s something that we’ve been talking about the whole season. I know people talk about the coaching stuff and everything but the people that followed us the whole time saw that we did a lot of things that we don’t usually do. It didn’t work but it’s not lack of trying. It’s not lack of effort. It’s not lack of knowledge. It’s just that you’ve gotta keep trying to find ways for these guys to be better.”
Fever – What better proof that Cora has no idea what he’s talking about. He’s not a bright man. He’s not an ethical man. He’s not a thinker but he is a cheater. So much to hate about Cora and yet ownership still keeps the human embarrassment for a man in the dugout. That speaks volumes about ownership too.
A full fledged house cleaning is needed NOW. We have to wash away the stench of Cora and Bloom.
FPG, thanks for the repost. I forgot where I read it… I read all of the boston sites lol
Well teams aren’t allowed to make major announcements until after the WS, so we probably won’t know who the POBO is until the second week of November. So Cora is probably safe for at least one more month.
DBH – You’re welcome, I think with the Pats having an awful season there will be a lot more media attention on the Sox this offseason.
He doesnt say all the coaches will be back in the article. He says they need to do better.
If he had said “The players need to do better next year” — would that be guaranteeing the whole team would be back, with no changes?
“I don’t believe so,” Cora said.
=======================
Basically what I said. He needed to comment, and anytime people aren’t sure, they get vague. “I believe so” is my standard response in place of “I don’t know”. And nothing he said after that indicated any confidence in the coaching staff.
My guess is that they already gone at that point, but no one had been told.
People read what they want to be true.
Joe – Everybody is different. But when somebody says they don’t believe so, that’s a definitive answer.
A non-definitive answer would have been something like “I’m not sure” or “Hasn’t been decided yet” or “No changes planned at this time” etc.
I know Cora is a BS artist, but I have no reason to believe he was lying about the coaches meetings scheduled last week. It’s group decisions, Cora needs approval to keep or let go any of the coaches.
Cora saying:
“I dont believe so”
Is not the same as:
“Didnt Cora just say that he and the coaches had a meeting and that all coaches would be back”
No matter how hard you want to spin it.
He’s clearly saying he’s doesnt know and its not his job to make that call.
About friggin time yayyyyyyyyy
if I was going to see him mumble into his hand
one more year I was gonna lose it
Although it is pretty hard to be a pitching coach when you don’t have pitchers, I agree that a shakeup is needed.
ray win – Most of us don’t see this as an egg versus the chicken question.
Hard to have good pitching with such bad coaches.
Also looking at guys who leave Boston, then evaluating how they do elsewhere, plays into the equation
You’d think the Angels would be making an announcement like this
A friend of mine said they need to fire their trainer.. too many players with oblique injuries this year..
.500 team next year.
Despite a 92-win club that finished two victories shy of the World Series in 2021, over the past four regular seasons the Red Sox have a cumulative losing record. That’s not a small sample.
harmony55 – NEVER think of 2021 as finishing close to a world series bid.
It’s like an average to below average team claiming that they were close to winning the NBA title because they were lucky enough to make it to the semi-finals against the old Golden State Warriors ballclub with Curry and gang. Count the victory as making it to play them but NEVER NEVER suggest you were close to beating them. 2 games vs the Houston Astros in 2021 might as well been pulling a lotto selection. The odds were comparable.
BOSTON WAS NEVER CLOSE TO WINNING ANYTHING UNDER BLOOM!!!!!!!!!
They got two lucky breaks by beating NY in a one game playoff and they got by the severely depleted of stars TB Rays to face the juggernaut of the AL. Even during Blooms losing years Boston had more talent than TB yet did so much less with it thanks to Cora.
Lol, just because you declare it doesn’t make it true, and it is not remotely true. Boston lost the first game by a run (could have easily gone either way) and then handily won the next two games. In other words, had the super close first game gone otherwise, Boston would have been virtually assured of going to the WS, in which case whatever would have been would have been.
You’re in denial because you’ve chosen your point and that locks you in to needing to twist the evidence to fit your desired point. Not a great plan.
The 2021 Red Sox got very close, and your NBA analogy is laughable in that the NBA and MLB playoffs don’t work remotely similarly in terms of competitive odds of success for various matchup levels.
Not many people realize the Sox would have missed the playoffs in 2021 if not for a Devers homerun in the 9th inning on the last day of the regular season.
redsox – Not many people realize that first game loss was due to the ballboy refusing to lift his stool which therefore caused a fair ball to hit it, preventing the Red Sox from scoring a run.
I remember that. They should have allowed the run to score.
suit – Agreed, but unfortunately any fair ball that hits an object or person on the field is considered live. Only a dead ball situation would allow the umpires to use their discretion in determining whether a runner would have scored.
redsoxU571 and the two clowns who gave him a thumbs up for his ridiculous comments – Did you guys even watch the series? Do you know the talent that was on the Houston team?
Game 1 – You described it as super close. You looked at the final score and decided that because had you checked the box score it took a ridiculous 2nd HR by a crap hitter named Kike to bring them within 1 run in the 9th. I’m sure guys like Altuve and Correa producing the runs for Houston was lucky while the Red Sox runs came from a lifetime .239 hitter. Sure Boston was clearly ripped off by not winning that game!! hahahaha
Game 2 – Boston had the favorable pitching match-up with my man Eovaldi going for them and they won 9-5. That was ONE legitimate win.
Game 3 – The most inconsistent pitcher the Red Sox had chose to pitch well in this game and held the other team to only 3 runs in 6 innings then the idiot manager used Robles, M Perez and Sawamura to close it out. Luck? hahaha Not one of the pitchers are with Boston anymore. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn!! Oh wow, Boston is so close!!!! hahahaha
Game 4 – Greinke spots the Red Sox two runs in the first and then Houston uses it’s pen and Boston doesn’t score again. In the meantime, Pivetta does his usual solid job and holds a 2-1 lead and passes the ball to Whitlock who does well in the 7th inning. Then Cora, the mindless manager, decides to leave him in for a second inning and Altuve homers to tie the game. At this point Red Sox fans have to realize that Cora is still calling the shots so the chances of winning are near zero. In a classic bonehead move by Cora, he brings back Eovaldi on short rest to start the 9th. 7 runs later the game is over in what appears to be a lop-sided game.
This is how I know you didn’t watch the series because you would have pointed out this game not game one as the one they could have won if not for Cora. But Cora was a part of the team and his mistakes were factored into the NO CHANCE comment I made. Cora makes more mistakes than Devers makes errors. That’s saying a lot!!
Game 5 = Framber Valdez shows his stuff. Sale pitches well enough to keep them in the game going into the 6th. Then a walk and a Schwarber error opens the door for Alvarez to drive in a couple of runs and Cora panics and replaces Sale with kerosene Brasier. Poof the 1-0 game goes to 6-0 thanks to Cora once again and the series is now 3-2 Houston.
Game 6 = Eovaldi gets yet another pitching opportunity by the desperate Cora and Luis Garcia tries to bounce back from his horrible outing in Game 2 against Eovaldi. Houston scored in the 1st and never looked back winning by a score of 5-0 ending the incredibly close series!! hahahaha
Boston scored 3 runs in the last 3 games of the series which was typical of what the Astro pitching staff had done all year. Kike played out of his mind for two weeks and most Boston fans remember him for that but they forget he was terrible for the other 50 weeks he was with the team. If you look up LUCK in the dictionary it says “ANY” good hitting streak by Kike!!!!
This series was NEVER close unless you count things like the Patriots going up 3 points on the Bears in Superbowl 20. Was that your idea of a close game since a lucky first drive produced points against a FAR FAR superior team? The Pats lost 46-10. Is that so much different than Boston scoring 3 runs in the final 3 games of a best of 7 series? The early part of the series was closer than it should have been just like the Pats scoring before the Bears. Neither situation reflected the skills of the participants. Talent dictates who is the more likely team to win, not luck. Boston ONLY had luck in 2021 thanks to Bloom.
My point is derivative of the actual events not the other way around. You may back into your comments that way but I simply document the facts and the facts were that HOUSTON was a FAR, FAR superior team to the RED SOX in 2021.
Finally, your comment on the NBA and MLB shows you are NOT versed in odds making, statistics or probabilities. All sports are measured by betting services and odds are created. I’m not sure what world you live in but team dominance in sports has always existed and in 2021 HOUSTON was dominant and BOSTON over-performed to barely make the playoffs. I chose Seattle as my NBA analogy but I could have pointed to the pre-1962 Yankees, the New England Patriots with Brady or the Russian Hockey team that competed in the Olympics prior to 1980. It’s all the same and you should know that but you don’t.
I’m in denial? Seriously, next time think before you write.
Speaking of The Great Nate …. another STELLAR postseason performance tonight!
He’s the new Curt Schilling of the postseason, totally dominant when it matters most. I really hope the Rangers face the Phillies in the WS … there would be (off the top of my head) at least 6 former members of the Red Sox between those two teams.
Fever – The Rangers are local for me so I’m hoping for a WS with the Phillies too!!! DD versus Young’s revitalized Rangers with Boche. I have no idea how effective Scherzer might be if he can make it back for the ALCS but it would make the Ranger staff extremely formidable without deGrom, Jon Gray and Odorizzi. Next year when the entire pitching staff is healthy, they will have the best staff in baseball. It’s very exciting to be a Ranger fan.
The young kids are surprising me daily. Jung was a guy I had hoped Boston could trade for but now he’s an all-star candidate for the next decade and he can FIELD REALLY WELL!!! And Carter came out of nowhere and is shockingly good right now. I have no idea if he can maintain his rise in 2024 but what fun it’s been in 2023!! Can you image facing Texas with deGrom, Scherzer, Eovaldi, Montgomery and Dunning, Heaney or Gray? Quality starters with quality depth. Something Bloom could never comprehend. Chris Young should be GM of the Year. The Ranger roster may have more talent than teams like ATL, LAD, PHI and any AL East team. Boy I wish Boston could find a Chris Young type GM and not limit him to 4 years!!!
This is f’ing stupid. Another Red Sox FO failure. Bush was not the problem. Not having enough healthy and decent pitchers was the problem.
web – There’s a long list of Red Sox pitchers that sucked in a Red Sox uniform, but pitched much better after leaving. Health had nothing to do with it.
Can you name a few over the last 4 years? Now can you name the ones that did better after getting to the Red Sox.
Bush was not the issue. Health and Bloom not adding good pitching was. Look at what Devers and other Red Sox players said about that subject.
web – I’ve already named several pitchers. I never said Bush was the only issue, but he certainly was a big part of the problem.
I don’t see where you named any pitchers. Can you copy and paste from wherever you posted that because I don’t see it.
web – Here is one of my posts:
mlbtraderumors.com/2023/09/red-sox-designate-kyle-…
As for just prior 4 years, there’s Diekman & Strahm & Springs & ERod & of course my man Brasier.
Houck, Sale, Whitlock all injured. There was no one else. That is on Bloom, not Bush.
websoulsurfter – I think you are confused about the role of the many parties involved in success of a pitching staff.
1 – There is the pitching coach who should be working with the farm system to develop pitching concepts that will be followed throughout the organization.
2 – There is the manager and his use of the talent he’s received from the GM. Cora can’t manage a pitching staff so he should be the primary source of dissatisfaction with the pitching performances during Bloom’s era.
3 – The GM provides the talent and Bloom procured a mixed bag of talent. He had his good choices that worked out in Pivetta Wacha and Paxton and his bad choices in Kluber, Hill and others. Not resigning was his biggest mistake along with paying half Price’s salary.
In the end, Cora deserves to be fired first but the pitching went downhill after Farrell was no longer the manager. The impact of Bush was not as negative as Cora but it wasn’t positive eitehr. He’s the equivalent of a league average player but instead is a league average pitching coach. The new GM needs to re-define the organization structure. The GM spot and below needs to be the decision of the new GM. Firing Bush is fine as long as nobody is hired until after the GM is signed.
web – I don’t understand what you are saying here. Assuming you are referring to this year, Houck had a 5.05 ERA prior to getting hit in the face. Sale had a 4.58 ERA before he suffered the injury. And Whitlock was bad for most of the season, 5.49 ERA before the Labor Day weekend tragedy.
The biggest concern was Bello’s 5.49 ERA in the second half of the season, if a pitching coach has a talented young pitcher regress that much in his first full season then clearly he’s not helping the pitcher much.
Great post as always! What makes it even more aggravating about Cora is that he got the job by cheating. Farrell was fired because 2017 was the second straight year the Red Sox were eliminated in the ALDS, and we all know why the Sox lost in 2017.
So think about it …. Farrell gets fired immediately after two consecutive 93-win division championship seasons.
Tito gets fired immediately after a 90-win season (granted, historic collapse).
Grady gets fired after a 95-win ALCS season, which came after a 93-win season (granted, he blew the ALCS)
Where’s the justice if Cora does return after two identical 78-84 last place seasons.
FPG!!!! Yeah name 1!!!!! Can’t resist….
Olmtiant – You always put a smile on my face, thank you man!
Brasier is an example of a guy who had unbelievable success after he left this organization. Is it better coaching snd training? I don’t know but there has to be something. I never saw a team make errors like they did this year. Cora cannot make chicken sss as lad out of chicken feathers. It is also up to the GM to get the talent to win. I don’t think Bloom did that with the pitching staff we had this year. He use to always look for those proverbial bargsind
WebSoulsurfer… It was collective failure from top to bottom with the pitching staff, but real problem is still calling the shots to cover up for his failures.
Bush was not the problem.
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What do you base that on? Crawford did well, but I was a little disappointed that neither Whitlock nor Houck developed as a starter.
Overall, I’m an agnostic on Bush, but I don’t really see anything impressive. But like the author so eloquently said, a lot of variance was to be expected.
Thumbs Up
Aside from this being a *start* to good news on cutting loose underperformers from the staff, this also raises another tidbit:
Anyone recall just recently implying that the coachong staff would be back for next year? Meaning, perhaps, more changes could be in the future depending on the PBO including the manager position….
GASox – Don’t tease me like that!
Ya think John Henry hired a henchman to sneak into Cora’s Peel P50 and steal the pictures of Henry in a hot tub at Mara-A-Lago?
For the first offseason since 2019 at least there’s *HOPE* and a sense of anticipation for *POSITIVE* changes to the ballclub.
Maybe we dont get the clean sweep we would prefer, and maybe we do. But either way, three dominoes have been topples, Bloom, Bush, and Feebles.
That clean sweep to give you hope would have to include Cora to be complete, right?
Yessir websoul, it absolutely would.
Watch with hope, but not much expectation. If you don’t kill off all the cancer, it’ll just continue to spread.
FPG… those pictures were probably taken on an Island that was frequented by lots of Hollywood “stars”.
Henry wouldn’t be caught dead at Mar-a-Lago he’s a stone cold liberal. And speaking of our mysterious owner — what nobody seems to notice is that he isn’t the billionaire investment house guy anymore he’s the multiple sports franchise owner now which is why the Sox were 12th in payroll. Don’t look for it to change much Henry and his “investors” have way too many pies to take care of. What the Sox REALLY need is new ownership. Someone who is really wealthy and is laser focused on just the Sox. The Red Sox are an iconic property and deserve to be treated as such. Not just another bobble in a collection like it is now with FSG.
Box – Great post, I would love to have new ownership but as long as FSG continues to have large profits from all their revenue streams I don’t see that happening … at least not until the Fenway Corners development is complete.
And yes I know Henry is far left, hence the reason why he’d do anything to keep pictures of him at Mar-A-Lago from surfacing. Get it? Haha!
Is this the MLB guy with a 92 ERA+ and a 4.73 ERA over his career? I know things don’t correlate perfectly, but maybe hiring from the pool of above-average former players may help here.
It is that Dave Bush. But typically your pitching coaches and such aren’t the most successful of pitchers. It doesn’t necessarily mean they didn’t know how to pitch, it mostly means they didn’t have the right stuff. Bush for example didn’t have a hard hitting fastball. His peak if I remember correctly was like lower 90s. That’s also why Mike Maddux is a pitching coach but Greg Maddux isn’t. Greg had a longer, more successful career with more money made. Mike on the other hand had more time on his hands.
That being said, I didn’t even know Bush was the Red Sox pitching coach. Nor do I know much about how their pitching staff faired overall. But I do know that most pitching coaches aren’t people who had overall largely successful playing careers themselves.
I’m not sure that’s the case at all. A ton of great batting and pitching coaches were middling to poor major leaguers at best. The greats aren’t good at teaching, which makes a lot of sense.
Heck just look at Kevin Cash. He was teammates with Dave Bush in Toronto and stunk worse than Bush ever did. But he’s a damn good manager.
This post has nothing to do with Bush. He was adequate. Nothing more or less. By many accounts he was a liked man in the organization. He is not the problem, and whatever one-man band aid they bring in will not be the answer either.
The first thing the Red Sox have to do is admit to themselves they are perhaps the worst franchise in major league history at scouting, developing, and fixing major league pitching. They have to do a top to bottom assessment of how this could possibly be true stretching nearly the entire team’s history. That is not a wild claim. They are beyond the pale abysmal for over a 100+ years at generating top pitching.
The entire franchise’s philosophy has to be thrown out the window on principle. A complete tear down and rework that has been overdue for over 80 years. Anyone associated with the club in regard to pitching should be immediately reviewed and terminated if necessary. Not a single entrenched view should survive any review. They need to spend significant money to review and bolster their scouting throughout the world, poach every single pitching scout they can get their hands on, and they need to hire the best minds they can find to address their inability to better develop, improve, correct, reinvent and reclaim pitching talent from the A level to MLB level. Since they rarely develop any of their own talent, they need scouts dedicated to scouting other teams’ talent for opportunities until they can become a respectable franchise in at least some aspects.
William – You’re one of my favorite posters, but I have to disagree with you on the scouting of pitchers. It was an organizational philosophy, led by Bloom, to use high draft picks on only position players, and then fill out the pitching staff via free agency, trades, dumpster dives, etc.
Look at the draft history under Bloom. It’s not that his pitchers didn’t live up to their draft slot …. he simply didn’t have any pitchers that were high draft picks, and that was by choice.
I never mentioned Bloom, and didn’t blame Bush. This is an organization Achilles heal that has been around longer than probably any living poster on MLBRumors. We are in fact one of the worst organizations ever at developing pitching, perhaps the single worst ever. It is my opinion we are the worst, but it is provable we are top 3 worst ever, easily.
This is our organizations single biggest weakness in nearly every year we ever existed. You would think it would be the greatest priority, especially when playing in a ballpark that is proven to make bad lineups look fine, good lineups look great, and great lineups look unstoppable.
I agree. I did a quick & dirty analysis. I believe that we spent as much draft capital under Theo on pitching as Cleveland did. But Cleveland always has pitching.
William: spot on the organization has historically been bad a producing pitching. In the last 40 years I would say Clemens , Lester , and Papalabon for any type of careers .
B dog – Another which came first the chicken or the egg dilemma. Do we draft bad pitchers or is the farm system development of pitchers really bad or is it both? My vote is both BUT when Farrell was the manager the in game decisions were far better than with Cora. Ex=pitchers tend to understand pitching better than weasels who are below league average back-ups. Cora was a terrible player but he’s an even worse manager. The team wins 10 games a year more simply by taking away Cora from the in-game decision making process..
William – Perhaps we are looking at development differently, as I don’t view drafting as part of the development process. You can’t develop pitchers that you don’t have, correct?
I agree with your overall point that the organization has not been good at developing pitching. I’ll say again, at times (such as the Bloom regime) it was an organizational philosophy to not use high draft picks on pitchers.
Single worst ever at developing pitching? I wouldn’t even attempt to take on a massive research project such as that.
But off the top of my head, there were at least two periods where the Sox did in fact have good results developing pitchers.
The early 2000’s when guys like Lester, Buchholz, Papelbon were developed.
And the late 70’s-early 80’s when guys like Clemens, Tudor, Hurst, Ojeda and even Schilling (thru AA) were developed.
But without question, at least in my lifetime, the Sox have been awful at producing ML pitchers.
Each thing I mentioned is a separate, of course. Our scouting is not good. Our developing of talent is not good. Our ability to do reclamations is not good. Our ability to reinvent pitchers is not good.
The process of figuring out who is the worst was fairly easy. You look at any pitchers of note with any staying power in a club’s history. The list for some clubs is long, and for others (like the Red Sox) incredibly short. You then find out who originally selected or signed the pitcher. Did the pitcher come up with and begin his career with the team. How long were they with the team and were they elite, or simply considered solid and reliable for a time. Was that pitcher’s success over their career with the Red Sox or did that success happen after they left?
You brought up some names that are easy to deal with. We drafted Schilling and traded him away to Baltimore. I happen to know him, and he would be the first to tell you he didn’t become a pitcher until a couple of seasons into Philly. 2 organizations later. Ojeda, and Tudor were middling 4/5 slot pitchers that only saw success after leaving. During the 1985 off season and spring training Ojeda changed his approach which was not succeeding. Tudor claimed he was reinvented in Pittsburgh trying to find something to improve and struggled a little through that transition. The Cardinals saw that reinvention truly take hold as his control caught up with his new tailing movement and ability to change speeds on every single pitch in any count. These were two entirely different pitchers that did not exist for the Red Sox, and one that didn’t exist for them at all at the MLB level until he was ripped apart by Nolan Ryan as a Philly.
You are right about the 2000’s. That may be one of the bright spots in club history. We can claim nearly 4 upper talent pitchers during that 10 year period. The 1980’s also had as many as 4. The bar is so low that you may be able to include Oil Can Boyd for one passable season, and 2 fairly good ones.
Just to cement the situation. Bob Stanley to this day (over a 100 years) still rates as one of the best pitchers we ever drafted and brought up. BOB STANLEY!!!!!!
William/FPG… enjoyed reading your posts about Redsox not developing pitchers… spot on … if I had a dollar for every Aaron Sele ( actually not horrible) John Dobson and I’m sure of so many others ( some kid KELLY) we traded away was supposed to be second coming of Rocket.. but the best was William talking about my 2nd favorite reliever Bob Stanley… seriously the guy pitched 80-90 plus innings and was actually good minus 78 playoff game to Reggie and 86 worst time to uncork his first wild pitch of season( Gedman should have caught/ blocked) anyways enjoy the posts especially old school stuff as this…. And yeah I saw… you can take the Brais out of Boston but …. Damn Roberts!!lol
William – As always, I really enjoyed your post …. thank you!
Just curious, who is the 4th pitcher in the 2000’s that I missed?
I know it’s not the immortal Craig Hansen! LOL!
Masterson?
olmtiant – Bob Stanley was the very first Red Sox pitcher to aggravate the hell out of me! And if I recall correctly, didn’t he talk like Andre The Giant?
The second Red Sox pitcher to aggravate me was Way Back Wasdin.
Look at his picture here and tell me that’s not Ferris Bueller pretending to be a ML pitcher!
baseball-reference.com/players/w/wasdijo01.shtml
Back in the early nineties/ late 80’s was a big strato-matic fan… I swear my friend was billy beane before money ball… as stated before I couldn’t stand bill James… he adored him.. reason is wasdin/ Joe heskith/ Tim lollar… later my fav… el guapo… pretty brutal… can’t believe Wasdin pitched that long…. Joe sambito… Tony Fossas.. I’m leaving out a ton but my head hurts thinking about them…. No Steve Crawford… he gets pass for 86 alcs game 5!!!
There are 3 that are fringe. Masterson, Delcarmen, and Bard (this is a tragedy for us) in the 2000’s, and later 2010’s we develop Barnes who although the stats aren’t pretty, he does become a mainstay.
olmtiant – If you couldn’t stand Bill James, I guess that means you despised Mike Gimbel?
Did Offerman replace Mo Money because of OBP, or was it because of Jose’s anagram?
William – Ahhh, we were on the same page. I considered all three of those guys, but didn’t include them in my list because of their lack of longevity.
And yeah, Bard was indeed a tragedy. Such electric stuff those first couple years as a reliever. I was in Rogers Centre when he had the infamous meltdown, glad he was able to come back years later.
Another tragedy: Jeff Gray, who suffered a stroke on the 11 year anniversary when JR Richard also had a stroke.
Clueless in Seattle… had no clue who Gimbel was… no lie… so read articles about him in espn … worked with Dan who of all GM’s I wish won 1 was him… he’ll you trade for greatness pitcher in Redsox history and for me Rhp in my lifetime you get major kudos… I remember my dislike for James when in one of his abstracts he had Jim Ed at like the 15-20 best LF in baseball ( not all positions just LF) stated was below average fielding/ low obp and hit into to many DP…. All true but Jim Ed is main reason this kid from Cicero/ BERWYN Il became a Redsox fan…later on buddy shows.me most Dp”s in 80”s …. Yup my man… of course in 04 who do I get a visit from after ws… my buddy with an old James abstract.. smiles hands it to me and says How do you like him now??? Priceless
olmtiant – Yeah Duquette took a lot of heat for his pioneering use of analytics, he used the Moneyball approach (ie: focus on OBP) before Billy Beane stole it for the Moneyball book and movie, and Duquette got ostracized for doing so.
Kinda like Dr. Atkins was shunned by the scientific community for his carbs-not-fat-are-the-enemy campaign, only to have it stolen and rebranded Keto, South Beach, etc. Poor guy slipped on ice and died before getting the satisfaction of being proven right.
Man you must have really hated when Bill James joined your favorite team’s front office!
Did you get the anagram reference?
Can’t lie… no so I googled it and Mike Gimbel .. you let HIT DOG walk and Jose was definitely not MAJOR OFFENSE LOL… as years went on I lightened up on Bill.. I couldn’t care if George Steinbrenner was the damn owner as long as I got to see 1!!! With 4 and hopefully a few more before I visit the nation in heaven I can still root aggressively but man after 75/86/88/90/03 like in the movie of your moniker where I thought I PLAYED a role in their success I’ve checked my anger/ disappointment/ frustration at the door… Still get worked up no doubt… forever hate Yankees… Astros very close second ( Bregman) but keep it real.. saw post about Nate… like you I hope he continues and they knock out Astros ( no faith in twins) I sure you remember what Bregman posted about Nate in 18 playoffs… so when he struck his Ass out in game 6 I was really jacked!!!!
I can’t believe you mentioned Jeff Gray. Bravo. That is the first pitcher to come into my mind a few years ago when I was breaking down how terrible the Red Sox are as an organization with pitching. I ran out of good in-house talent in minutes and started to go into the second tier.
Gray, DelCarmen, Suppan, Pavano, Sele, Etc. Most were eliminated. We didn’t draft them, or they actually had nearly 100% of their success somewhere else. Gray was a Reds product. I really liked him a lot. It was a huge blow to the team losing him.
William – That was my era, I was a kid with lots of spare time and no internet or cable TV or video games back then. So I was immersed in Red Sox baseball, either watching the games on channel 38 or listening to them on WTIC 1080. Gray became a really good pitcher right before that tragedy, I was devastated.
Suppan, now THAT is a name I haven’t heard in decades. Pavano was a local kid, I was friends with a relative of his.
Rose and Armas Jr were homegrown pitchers that were valuable trade chips, that should count for something right?
FPG, William and oimtiant – Thanks for that banter!!! Wow was that fun to read. It’s guys like you that will always keep me coming back to this website. Enjoyed it immensely!!!
Rose and Armas. Interesting. The answer is yes, they count, but only because of the talent they brought back. Do they really count as pitchers we scouted that we were right about? Well, no. They do not count. Rose was not very effective, and Armas Jr. was a serviceable pitcher with upside on paper, just not so much on the field. 53-65 4.65. I don’t think the Sox scouting department and development team gets a golf clap.
You might want to consider the ballpark before you lock in your stance on this. This is especially true for Fenway before the .400 club was built and changed the jet stream that had fueled the park being the best for hitters in baseball, but even after that Fenway has been a notable hitter’s park for a long, consistent time. All the pitchers they developed and kept have locked worse than they really were because of that. Just something to consider!
I do take the park into account for pitching also, however there is an issue. We didn’t exactly produce many pitchers over 120 years that went on to be great for anyone else either. The bottom line is this. We have been, and continue to be abysmal at locating talented pitchers, scouting them, drafting them, developing them, fixing them, and reinventing them to improve them. The track record of great pitchers that are truly Red Sox products we retained and can claim would fit on the front side of a business card in regular type.
He will wind traded along with Matt Bush to the Cardinals for newly signed free agent Brad Hand.
Because two Bushes on the Birds is worth more than one Hand.
Yikes, that was forced.
I hope you have a day job…
I was off today.
In more ways than one, apparently.
Either Ng or Counsell gets the job.
“Let’s go Red Sox’s, lets go Red Sox’s” .. clean house at the top if you want real change
Bush has never seemed like the right guy to lead the Pitching staff. Maybe it’s time to bring back John Farrell as Pitching coach. Couldn’t manage worth a damn but the team pitched pretty well when he was pitching coach
Rsox – I’m still wishing for Breslow in some capacity.
That guy did manage us to a World Series… not the best, agreed, but that is worth mentioning.
True, but i feel that was some otherworldly magic given they were horrendous in ’12 and just played probably well above their abilities after the marathon bombing
I like the story but don’t believe the bombing inspired them to win more than not. Most players did have career years in 13 though.
Let the fire sale begin
Anyone know how much a mlb pitching coach gets paid?
About $220k I think, with better ones closing in around $300k. No where near a managers pay. Not sure, but I think Cora may still be the lowest paid manager in baseball tied with a couple others for about $800k.
He didn’t have a great staff to work with, someone had to take the fall.
Maybe the Red Sox should look into the Dodgers coaching staff and see if they can pry a replacement for pitching coach.
The Dodgers are the model organization. They have been competitive for most of their west coast existence while still producing so many rookies of the year, and top 3 finishers that people tend to forget how many players they have produced that didn’t exactly set the world on fire when they got called up but did go on to have great careers.
Their scouting department, and developmental approach has always been elite.
William – I completely agree on the Dodgers. About a month ago I looked at their pitching staff this year, despite a massive number of injuries they still managed to produce replacements who performed quite well. No dumpster diving like Bloom did.
I’d also include Cleveland, Atlanta and Tampa as organizations that have been quite successful at producing and fixing pitchers.
The Rays, and Pittsburgh are near legend at this point for taking “used to be” and “never have been” pitchers and making something useful of them. At this point there is no way to look at it as luck, over and over, year after year. Whatever they have, bottle it, and NEVER SELL IT.
The Dodgers are expert in evaluating talent. They also are strong in how to exploit strengths and phase out weaknesses in pitchers to squeeze more out of them. They are close to the Rays imho.
William – One caveat to Tampa’s success at developing pitchers, they tend to sustain serious injuries a lot. Perhaps due to the max effort in short outings approach that allows them to constantly cycle pitchers on and off the roster … kinda like a former POBO that we know, except with far better results.
Also the Rays are known to acquire many pitchers who have a pre-existing high probability of future injury.
I was about to mention as I was reading that they also take chances in the draft on guys that have had injuries, or they see a specific plus pitch in. They tend to pick a pitchers top 1 or 2 pitches and tell them to go out and use it into oblivion. They also are a changeup driven organization. Every pitcher pretty much has to learn one, and they work it as if it’s the only ticket to the pros. It may seem harsh, but there is no doubt they are very geared towards scouting weaknesses and trying to use strengths to near exclusivity for results.
So many pitchers inconsistently used.
I’m tired of the Red Sox having crappy pitching results. Maybe it is related to the pitching coach but it also depends on talent and health. Last year was an injury mess, almost every pitcher missed time and had trouble with consistency.
I would like to see them go out and get another starter who can give them innings, someone a little better than Pivetta. I can live with Crawford. Sale gets one more chance next year.
Most importantly, all these guys need specific roles on this staff. Houck and Whitlock need to turn it around. Figure out what their roles are and let them flourish again.
Maybe I’m pie in the sky, but there’s a lot more talent on the staff than the results indicate. And that’s why the coach is going to be replaced.
Stay tune for the ESPN 2 Hour Spectacular tonight. “Red Sox Nation in Crisis Mode”
Peter Gammons
Curt Gowdy
Dick Enberg
Bret Musberger
Cury Gowdy
Boy Howdy
Mr. Haney
Mr. Douglas
Mr. Drucker
The Monroe Bros.
“Electro” The Wonder eel
Moderated by Mel Tillis and Hank Kimble
What no Arnold Ziffle????
Past his bed time. Besides his parents are the only ones can understand is grunts
Winslow – I am very anxious what Curt Gowdy and Dick Enberg will have to say!
Scapegoat for numerous injuries. Too Bad!
He can thank Bloom for his dismissal. Darn Chaim.
Fever – It’s funny how from the day Bloom didn’t non-tender JBJ in December of 2019 I have been on his case for all his mistakes and there was always a large group of people who harassed me for my perspective. Loyal to the new guy without first doing their homework on his past. The trolls all disappeared when Bloom got fired. It’s been really nice!!
All I can tell you is that I’m not happy that I was right about Bloom and Cora because it cost Boston fans four years of torture. After the 86 year drought Red Sox fans didn’t deserve seeing Mookie tossed out with the trash and the Championship team being sold off for parts or simply discarded. They deserved prolonged success to make up for the 86 years.
Ownership needs to start considering the fans and stop with all the bizarre behavior they have committed since they fired Dombrowski. Let this team have a chance of winning in the future by dumping the Cheater CORA and then hiring a brilliant baseball mind who knows how to lead a big market organization. They don’t have to be perfect, they just need to bring back some Division Titles and rings. That’s not too much to ask for Red Sox Nation.
What are your thoughts on Daniels taking over as POBO? He’s had success, but he was fired mainly for relying too much on analytics.
Fever – I say no to Daniels. He was the problem not the solution in Texas. The gap between Nolan Ryan and Chris Young at GM in Texas is nearly as disheartening as the Bloom years. I want to see a bigger name who can bring in a REAL manager with past success and a working knowledge of pitching. If Boston could steal Young from Texas for more money I would support that whole-heartedly. He thinks and plans like DD and most importantly he’s not afraid of big contracts but he’s one of the best at landing REAL TALENT for big bucks not like Cashman or Bloom signing Devers. Seager, Semien, Scherzer and deGrom make up a core unlike many around baseball. Friedman screwed up and let Trea Turner go and DD stole him to make his team a contender beyond the Dodgers who have always been inept at winning in the post season. If not for the stealing of Mookie, LAD’s last success would be 1988 which is 35 years ago.
We need a GM who can put the ELITE players in baseball in his Sniper sights and spend big bucks to rebuild a core group like DD had. Looking at this off season free agents the new GM needs to focus only on the ELITE ones worth the money they will cost:
Ohtani – Best player in Baseball and is worth $50MM a year
Nola – Quality right hander worth $30MM a year
Montgomery – Tier 2 SP that is lefty which is a need right now worth $25MM
Everyone else is a filler that doesn’t add value so the GM must trade to get what is needed.
A 3B is critical. Excess baggage of Yoshida and Verdugo or Devers and Verdugo needs to be deal for a 3B who plays great defense and is an above league average hitter. There are not many players in the game that are available with those skills that is why I keep suggesting Arenado. He’s an equivalent to adding Seager in Texas or Harper/Turner in Philly. He also could solve the DH problem by having Yoshida or Devers in the deal. Devers money is so great I don’t believe anyone in their right mind would take his contract but a good salesman might show the value in an Arenado Devers swap. Youth at a lesser cost and Boston gets far better defense at a higher cost for a shorter time period while the player will be productive. That one deal could turn around the franchise along with the acquisition of two SPs. All the other problems are minor.
So lets start by stealing Young, then signing Ohtani and trading Devers for Arenado. At that point, the Bloom damage has been reversed.
Ohtani is a kryptonite to the Red Sox. As much as I think he is a next level of elite. We may be talking about nearly 1/4 of the entire payroll to a player that will not be able to pitch for another year, and we would have to cross our fingers on the recovery, and not reinjuring.
Obviously the first reaction to getting him is, HELL YES!!!!!! If he was the last missing piece. We have so many huge, blatant problems all over the place that we need upgrades in 7 places at once to compete in any meaningful way. This roster is pretty much a shambles. The rotation is noncompetitive for a team with playoff aspirations, the pen shouldn’t and doesn’t inspire much confidence if they are planning to poach from it to address the rotation, we don’t hit for much power, and we play extremely hard to watch defense,
If they raise the cap to 400 million, sure why not get Ohtani. That would give us the room to maybe fix a bunch of other terrible issues. My fear is we would talk about our interest for a few weeks. Low ball him, if we even make an offer at all. That seems to be the routine. See him sign elsewhere and talk about how we gave it a shot to the fans. Let’s get this pipe dream out of the way all. It isn’t going to happen, and if it did it would be one of the most insanely stupid moves in team history for where we are, what we are, and where we need to be.