The Hall of Fame announced this evening that Adrián Beltré, Joe Mauer and Todd Helton have been elected by the Baseball Writers Association of America. They will be elected alongside Jim Leyland, who was selected by the Era Committee last month.
Beltré received 95.1% of the vote, Helton 79.7% and Mauer 76.1%. Billy Wagner got 73.8%, just shy of the 75% threshold. This was his ninth year on the ballot, meaning next year will be his last. Gary Sheffield received 63.9% of the vote in his 10th year on the ballot and will therefore not be present on next year’s. The full results can be found at this link from the BBWAA.
Beltré was an international signing of the Dodgers out of the Dominican Republic. He debuted in the majors in 1998 when still just 19 years old. Though it took him some time to realize his full potential, he would eventually go on to have an incredible career in just about every respect.
He eventually played in parts of 21 seasons with the Dodgers, Mariners, Red Sox and Rangers. In 2,933 career games, he had 3,166 hits, which included 636 doubles, 38 triples and 477 home runs. He was also considered to be an excellent third baseman, tallying 200 Defensive Runs Saved even though that metric didn’t exist for the first few years of his career. He also stole 121 bases over the years.
Due to the combination of his offense, defense and longevity, he produced 83.8 wins above replacement in eyes of FanGraphs while Baseball Reference has him a 93.5. He was on four All-Star teams, won five Gold Glove awards and four Silver Slugger Awards. This was his first year on the ballot.
Mauer’s career exploits were many, but there was also a poetic connective tissue in that he was so specifically tied to one franchise. Born and raised in Saint Paul, Minnesota, he entered the 2001 Major League Baseball draft and the Twins used the first overall pick to select him.
He would go on to play his entire career for the Twins, which lasted from his 2004 debut through the 2018 season. He played in 1,858 games, with injuries reducing his playing time and eventually moving him from catcher to first base. But he still managed to notch 2,123 hits and finish his career with a .306 batting average.
Of the seven batting titles won by catchers, Mauer has three of them. That included his 2009 season, wherein he hit .365 and won Most Valuable Player in the American League. He finished his career with 53 fWAR and 55.2 bWAR. He was selected to six All-Star teams, won three Gold Glove awards and five Silver Slugger Awards. This was his first year on the ballot.
Helton also spent his entire career with one organization, having been drafted eighth overall by the Rockies in 1995. He would make his major league debut in 1997 and stick with the Rockies through 2013.
In his 2,247 games, he tallied 2,519 hits, including 1,521 doubles and 369 home runs. In 2000, he hit .372 with 40 home runs, then followed that up by hitting 49 homers with a .336 batting average the year after. He made five All-Star teams, won three Gold Glove awards and five Silver Sluggers. He has career tallies of 54.9 fWAR and 61.8 bWAR. This was his sixth year on the ballot.
Per the BBWAA, this was the 10th time they elected three players, the last being when Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines and Iván Rodríguez were elected in 2017.
deGrom/Langford Texas Ranger
“One of these things is not like the others.”
Sunday Lasagna
What an interesting career Beltre had. Solid years leading to one spectacular year with the Dodgers, but then back to more just solid years in his late 20’s.
Went to Boston and got to play with David Ortiz and his production took off and remained stellar for years in Texas after that.
Wonder if Ortiz gave him some batting tips on how to prosper in the bigs after age 30.
JoeBrady
his production took off
==========================
Not really. Beltre only had one season with more than 36 HRs. It was his fielding, health, and consistency that got him in.
Sunday Lasagna
OPS+ of 139 in the 5 years including his Boston year and first 4 with Texas…….well above his career mark
Fever Pitch Guy
Joe – It was also Beltre’s ability to take down Red Sox teammates.
You should have seen his collisions with Ellsbury and Hermida, they were epic hits WWE-worthy.
Beltre cracked 4 of Ellsbury’s ribs!
JoeBrady
Joe – It was also Beltre’s ability to take down Red Sox teammates.
============================
I don’t know what he looked like in TX, but when he was with the RS, the dude was a rock. I agreed with Theo at the time, but in retrospect, letting him leave might not have been the best idea.
Blue Baron
@Joe Brady: Beltre was a free agent and no longer under contract, so it wasn’t up to Theo to “let him leave.”
It was, and always is, the player’s decision.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Don’t mess with his head. Wait, look it’s a bird!! AND IN SWOOPS ELVIS ANDRUS WITH A PAT ON THE HEAD
kje76
He went from a pitcher’s park in Seattle to much more offensively inclined parks in Boston and Arlington. It’s a fair reason why his production took off.
User 3044878754
No way a banjo hitter like Mauer should make the HALL
DarkSide830
Wow, a 1st ballot catcher? Very rare company Joe, very rare.
baseballpun
Well, sometimes catcher.
Steve(shs22)
If he was a 1st basemen from the get go he would of played 20 years vs 15.
So I don’t really get people’s longevity argument.
Trollfree
For many years if you asked who was the top Catcher in baseball Mauer would have been in the discussion. Jeter played 20 plus years and it could be argued that not one year he would have been considered the best but maybe a top 5. If Mauer was a Yankee he would have been unanimous. How screwed up is the HOF? Can’t think of a more poorly run organization except maybe the Red Sox!!
Blue Baron
@Steve: If you finished high school, you would HAVE known that he would HAVE, not OF, played 20 years vs 15.
okaybluejays
I understand your point but Jeter’s postseason success put him in a different category than Mauer. A fairer comparison for Mauer would be Don Mattingly. He played his entire career for the Yanks and was considered one of the best at his position, yet he’s not in the hall. I think the fact Mauer was a catcher is what gave him the edge
deGrom/Langford Texas Ranger
@Blue Baron Fi ishing high school and graduating from Cornell are basically at rhe same level anyways. There is nothing to be cocky about.
Blue Baron
@deGrom: What an amazingly dumb comment. Are you an example of what the Texas schools produce?
AM21
*sometimes catcher
Call it what it is.
baseballpun
If he was a 1B for 20 years and was compared to other 1Bs, would he be in the HOF?
I’m fine with him being in the HOF on the merits of his career but comparing him to guys who caught their whole 15+ year careers seems wrong to me.
unpaidobserver
MLB history is littered with “what if” guys. By and large theyre not in the hall of fame.
deGrom/Langford Texas Ranger
@Blue Baron I went to JHU and really don’t care what you think. Tbh, most college students are probably diversity admits anyways, and college just proves you have the money and ability to pass classes. It proves your ability, but it doesn’t change your intellect a bit. Also, for the record, JHU has consistently been ranked top 10 in the US. You can choose to think I went to John Doe University for all I care. Honestly, most employers don’t care if I went to JHU or JMU. A guy who is 2 levels above me was a farmer who taught himself to code.
TrumboRedux
Farmer who taught himself to code?? How the heck did he do that?? H
Blue Baron
I remember Cornell kicking JHU’s butt In men’s lacrosse several times.
But if you attended an elite university, why would you make such an ignorant comment denigrating another elite university?
TrumboRedux
I remember you, Baron. Harvard Row team. Class of 84. You were 2nd team all Ivy League if memory serves haha 2 years in a row! Pun intended..
TrumboRedux
P.S. Baron, do me a favor and see about my application to The Harvard Club. They say an AA from a juco here in SoCal doesn’t cut the mustard though I am dubious.
Blue Baron
LOL! Actually, you’re asking about the wrong club. My master’s degree is from Yale when Bart Giamatti was still president, just before he left to become NL president and then MLB commissioner.
TrumboRedux
Haha My mistake, Baron. Forgive me once again for prying, but if your expertise (degree) wasn’t in Economics I would be a bit stunned! Am I close?
deGrom/Langford Texas Ranger
@Blue Baron
It’s more about how Cornell’s graduates handled Covid more than anything. After a Cornell/JHU/Harvard study showed that COVID lockdowns will kill an expected 0.8 million more people over the next 15 years, JHU had a strict in person policy. The only professor to cancel more than 25 percent of in person classes was a guy from Cornell. He shut He canceled 7 of 8 one semester and supposedly did the same lazy stuff thr prior semester. Also, guess where the fear over facts guy Fauci went to college? In spite of empirical evidence from the NY Times and CDC that show a mere 1% death rate amongst those infected, they decided to shut down Cornell. My point is you shouldn’t be so condescending because people don’t seem well-educated. At the end of the day, even Einstein doesn’t have that much power. The joke about Cornell was meant to add humor to the topic.
Study link if interested: google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j…
Trump graduated from U Penn, Obama graduated from Harvard, the Bushes gradusted Harvard, and Clinton graduated from Yale. How much of that matters to you or anyone?
Blue Baron
But I went there more than 40 years ago, and not for med school. I am not responsible for what any other alumnus does.
What Cornell does deserve criticism for is how its president, who happens to be Jewish, has failed to effectively deal with antisemitism on campus.
And BTW, the Bushes attended Yale and President Obama attended Columbia as an undergraduate.
Why should any of that matter to anyone?
deGrom/Langford Texas Ranger
*Actually, the 3rd college was Duke, not Cornell. I felt like I forgot something there. Lol
Blue Baron
Close. I received my MBA with concentrations in accounting and finance.
TrumboRedux
Wouldn’t expect/accept anything less! Reminds me of my rocket scientist pal who received his MS in Aerospace Engineering with a concentration in “Fluid Mechanics” haha
Fever Pitch Guy
TF – Superb post as always!!
You want to know how idiotic HOF voters are?
3 guys didn’t vote for Griffey Jr
5 guys didn’t vote for Seaver
6 guys didn’t vote for Ryan
8 guys didn’t vote for Ripken
9 guys didn’t vote for Brett
9 guys didn’t vote for Aaron
13 guys didn’t vote for Gwynn
Look at these others …. ABSURD!!!
Randy Johnson (97.3%), Greg Maddux (97.2%), Chipper Jones (97.2%), Mike Schmidt (96.5%), Johnny Bench (96.4%), Steve Carlton (95.6%), Babe Ruth (95.1%), Honus Wagner (95.1%), Rickey Henderson (94.8%), Willie Mays (94.7%), Carl Yastrzemski (94.6%), Luke Appling (94.0%), Bob Feller (93.8%), Reggie Jackson (93.6%), Ted Williams (93.4%), Stan Musial (93.2%), Vladimir Guerrero (92.9%), Roberto Clemente (92.7%), Jim Palmer (92.6%), Brooks Robinson (92.0%), Tom Glavine (91.9%), Wade Boggs (91.9%), Ozzie Smith (91.7%), Pedro Martínez (91.1%), Christy Mathewson (90.7%), Rod Carew (90.5%) and Roberto Alomar (90.0%).
Blue Baron
And sorry, not sorry, but when someone doesn’t know basic English like should have vs should of, it hits me like scratching a blackboard, so I say something.
deGrom/Langford Texas Ranger
whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/presidents/ge…
Harvard MBA for Bush Jr – Regardless, I’m saying your premise that dumb people are uneducated is undercut by how the public perceives many of those “well-educated” folk.
Fever Pitch Guy
letsplayball – If you’re gonna lean on postseason success more heavily, then Schilling should have been a first-ballot.
Blue Baron
@unpaidobserver: Not by and large, they’re just not in the hall of fame.
Blue Baron
I wish you could have accepted my student loans!
Blue Baron
@deGrom: Where did I say dumb people are uneducated?
Although many are, including those who support Trump.
But dumb people are dumb and uneducated people are uneducated.
However, I refuse to believe that anyone – Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, Obama, or Trump – capable of being elected and rising to the presidency is a stupid person.
They may have undesirable personal qualities, but they are most definitely not stupid.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
20 years of no power. He would have been a slightly better Sean Casey.
Blue Baron
@Trumbo: Funny, my best friend at Cornell majored in Animal Breeding and Genetics in the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, but took a lot of computer science classes and wound up making his career in IT.
Not exactly a farmer learning to code, but close.
He and his wife actually do own and live on a farm up that way.
TrumboRedux
Haha That is pretty neat, and unique.
iverbure
Who cares.
TrumboRedux
You care. Enough to read Baron’s entire post and reply. Don’t be rude and snarky for no reason, iverbure.
Wolf Hoffmann
Texas HS diploma > Cornell anything
TrumboRedux
Wolf, honest mistake I’m sure, but you probably got it backwards, amigo.
Blue Baron
@Wolf Hoffmann: Typically ignorant comment.
TrumboRedux
Baron, it’s all the “anti-semitic” news that has everyone boycotting the Ivy League. It will blow over. I would still gladly take an Ivy League degree to add to my resume, obviously..
TrumboRedux
**to my
padam
@Steve – if Mauer was a first baseman, he’d be Mark Grace, this not in the HOF.
deGrom/Langford Texas Ranger
Yes. I can assure you that the elite schools are probably in line with other colleges in this regard. I have see that younger generations are overbelmingly anti-Semitic to where a bunch of guys 18-25 actually believe the Hol
o
caust (avoiding auto censors) never happned, and about half support Ham a s. It’s something I never realized.
JoeBrady
Although many are, including those who support Trump.
==============================
It isn’t so much that people support Trump as the fact that they do not support the village idiots in the WH currently.
Past that, while I agree that none of the people you named are stupid, only Clinton stands out intellectually.
JoeBrady
Texas HS diploma > Cornell anything
===========================
Texas HS’s are certainly better in FB.
Blue Baron
@Joe Brady: Can’t argue about that.
My point about presidents is that nobody capable of becoming president is a stupid person.
JoeBrady
Trump is probably as smart as any of them. His issues are more related to being Asberger-y than anything else. It’s everything he does. Probably 90% of the country agrees with his immigration policy, including most of the democrats in NYC and Chicago. Then he completely derails it by insulting the Mexicans.
And he does that all the time.
Blue Baron
Definitely
Dumpster Divin Theo
What kind of ashat goes on a baseball chat board and says look at me, I went to an ivy league school, then proceeds to dis people for not finishing high school?
Dumpster Divin Theo
Humble brag on a baseball chat group, that’s gotta be a new low for a self proclaimed ivy league alum. Anyone else wanna call bs on that?
Dumpster Divin Theo
Degrom- mad respect for not whipping out your bonafides until confronting a chat room bully. Love that Homewood neighborhood Upper Charles. Kinda wish I was around when old Memorial Stadium was around. Did you ever go to an Os game or was that before your time? (See a point referencing a school and place relevant to baseball, and not blah blah blah I went to Cornell)
Blue Baron
Go ahead, call BS. Whatever floats your boat.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Harvard Club of New York’s got fancy peloton machines. But they nickel and dime everyone on salty snacks. Guess who loads up their trenchcoat and sport jacket pockets with cashews before being shooed out the bar. Just sayin’
Blue Baron
@Dumpster: Love the irony of you calling anyone a chatroom bully!
Blue Baron
Must be you. I never attended Harvard and don’t frequent the Harvard Club.
Only someone who does something knows what is possible.
“Just sayin.”
deGrom/Langford Texas Ranger
I was born in 1999, so I didn’t get to see that park. I got into baseball in 2010 (back to back WS for Texas). I did attend quite a few Texas Baltimore games and even a Baltimore LA game, though. I now live in DeSantisland (some call this place “Florida” for some reason).
Dumpster Divin Theo
Cornell is the Joe Mauer of Ivy league schools.
Blue Baron
And Mauer’s a first-ballot HOFer.
So whatever you mean by that, it’s a nice compliment.
terrymesmer
You are [censored] crazy.
TrumboRedux
Terry, why is your Mother your profile pic??? Pretty weird, friendo!
TrumboRedux
Baron, Theo, you two are pretty good jokesters on here, you shouldn’t be squabbling with each other! There are actually bonafide trolls on here as of late that are much more deserving of a good smacking!
TrumboRedux
deGrom, must be nice!!! I used to be a young buck with the world as my oyster as well haha
Blue Baron
I’m cool with Theo, but I have no idea why he’s so angry and hostile that he felt the need to come out of nowhere with a personal attack about things that come up in conversation.
Being a chatroom bully and calling me one, lol.
Pot, meet Kettle.
TrumboRedux
Welp, Theo is a “Harvard Man” and you are an ex prodigy from Yale haha. I suppose it’s merely nature haha Basic interleague showmanship haha
Blue Baron
Really? Must be all the times Cornell whipped their butts in ice hockey!
TrumboRedux
LOL! You strike me as an ex-hockey player as well, Baron! I feel like you probably played till around high school..Or “Young Gentleman’s Finishing School” in your case haha Old John Steed (Avengers) reference..
Blue Baron
No, just a fan and part-time sportswriter.
TrumboRedux
& Part-Time MLBTR comment thread communist…I mean columnist!! LOL!
fox471 Dave
10 straight years as a catcher, not sometime catcher.
TrumboRedux
Good point Fox! 10 straight years!!!
JoeBrady
Good point Fox! 10 straight years!!!
=========================
He’s only had 5 seasons with more than 88 starts at catcher. Even in a shortened career, Munson had 9 seasons of 108 GS or better.
towinagain
Safe to say the Padres won the Sheffield trade lol
el jefe
Marlins won the World Series with Sheffield. What did San Diego do? That’s right, 1998 runners-up and they wasted Tony Gwynn and Trevor Hoffman’s careers.
shibbynotdude
Yeah Mauer doesn’t really pass the eye test as a first ballot HOF. If he played more of his career at Catcher maybe. I think he belongs but I can’t see a difference between him and Helton except Helton’s WAR, which is ballpark adjusted, is better. I think he’s a Hall of Famer but don’t understand how he’s a first ballot while others aren’t.
filihok
snd
“don’t understand how he’s a first ballot while others aren’t.”
The idea of “first ballot hall of famer” is one of the dumbest things
You’re a hall 9f famer, or you’re not
You get in by getting a certain percent of the vote.
Should the voters all get together to make sure a deserving hall of famer doesn’t accidentally get enough votes in their first year?
And what if all the voters decide he’s not a first balloter,, so mo one votes for him and falls off the ballot completely
Voters vote, if the player gets enough, they are in.
That’s it
Sunday Lasagna
If a writer votes for a player one year and then doesn’t vote for the player the next year or if a writer doesn’t vote for a player one year and then does vote for them wouldn’t that imply that the writer didn’t put enough time and effort into their prior year ballot?
If not lack of preparation what changes their minds? Peer pressure? Public Opinion? Fresh baked cookies from the players wife?
If a writer put in the time and effort to determine that x player is not worthy, then one would think that writer would deem the same player unworthy all ten years.
Just the fact that we see these swells of voting percentages growing year on year brings into question the integrity of the voters.
Hey writers, if you are reading this,…..Do your research, make a decision you are proud of and stick to it!
Dumpster Divin Theo
Some of it actually is politicking, at least those who cast the maximum no of votes and try to use their votes to keep players on ballots while subtracting support from someone they feel is safe.
EscapedFromLA
I think the HoF class may also play into things as far as who gets votes.. A weaker class makes it easier to vote for someone who may get a pass in the first round over other players. It’s not like Mauer ran the table. He barely made it in, but he did and I think most people feel he does deserve a spot in Cooperstown. Optics (good or bad) also plays a roll I think. Piazza should’ve been a first-ballot HoF’er but steroid rumors even if unsubstantiated hurt him. Seems like Mauer was pretty widely liked which made it easier for the writers to vote for him.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
Indeed. Yogi Berra? Nope. Gary Carter? Nope. Carlton Fisk? Nope. Mike Piazza? Nope. Joe Mauer, Ivan Rodriguez, and Johnny Bench are the only three catchers to make the Hall on the first ballot. That’s some elite company. I understand there are nuances (like who else is on the ballot, the curmudgeonly ways of voters from days past who often resisted first ballot players, the knowledge that sabremetrics brings to a players worth, etc) that can help explain why Mauer is in such elite company but this is still a very big honor.
Blue Baron
@Comrade: But ultimately, getting in or not is what matters. First ballot, third ballot, eighth ballot et al is just a detail.
TrumboRedux
Very true Baron. Ideally before the ex-player becomes a Great-Grandparent. But yes, it really “shouldn’t” matter unless it is some kind of obvious travesty at play.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
I disagree. Being a first ballot HOFer has an honor to it. But as I stated, there are nuances.
TrumboRedux
If you got elected on the 10th ballot, you probably should have been elected on the 1st.
Dumpster Divin Theo
That’s only if they get in to the HOF. Then they become a Great Grandparent. Unlike say Donnie Baseball or Gracie or Will the Thrill or Willie Horton, who are Very Good-Grandparents.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Speaking of parents, how confusing must it have been for the father-son ice scrimmage when someone shows up and they ask “qui est vous?” And he responds “je suis Mr. Parent. Je suis le parent du Bernie Parent. That older gent there, he’s grandpapa. Le Grand parent du Bernie Parent. Meet the Parents.” But I digress. Beltre and his potential head pat. Great! Helton and Mauer. Meh.
Dumpster Divin Theo
“If you’re not elected first, you’re last!” – R. Bobbie
Dumpster Divin Theo
That would be like Tricky Dick. Maybe that’s why he was so tortured and turned to a life of chicanery and flim flam, instead of going down in history is the greatest liberal Era president in history. Never got over that first ballot snub. JFK got all the glory and pub and hotties. Tricky Dick had to wallow in shame in purgatory and get in on the 10th ballot. At least he finally got in, like the Denver Broncos. Unlike Adlai Stevenson or the Buffalo Bills.
brickhaus
Known steroid cheat who didn’t play in the field David Ortiz already broke the “first ballot” system.
Johnny Devil
How weak is this class. You said it. Joe Mauer 1st ballot.
davidk1979
Hopefully Wagner gets in next year
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
It took 16 years for Lew Smith to get voted in and he had 2nd most all time saves until Trevor Hoffman passed him. Wagner is 6th all time right now. He should’ve been in by now.
It had to be from the committee. Which is just BS if you ask me.
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
Lee*
I made 2 edits and I missed the most glaring one. Haha
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
I still think Lew Ford should be in the Hall.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
I missed an edit, too.
377194
The Long Island Ducks think so.
dasit
another overlooked reliever is joe nathan. if he threw a few more innings to qualify for the leader board he would have the 6th highest ERA+ in history. insane peak from 2004-2009
Non Roster Invitee
I just saw his post season stats and threw up a little.
dasit
yeah his post-season performance is a bummer
MWeller77
Yeah, I agree. Perhaps the standard should be higher for closers, since they typically pitch one inning, but I think Wagner meets whatever standard we can set. Not as dominant as Rivera, but who is?
Flanster
100% right
I.M. Insane
Had Wagner been a Yankee, he’d have been a 1st or 2nd ballot inductee.
whatwouldyogido
Then why haven’t Pettitte, Posada, Bernie, and Sheffield gotten in?
steven st croix
We know why Sheff is not in. I think Pettitte was good, not great. Bernie has a case and Posada has more of a case than Bernie. Still, Billy Wagner is a hall of famer and should be in.
gwynnpadreshof2007
3 of them didn’t put out the requiste stats to make it, though time maybe be on Bernie’s side in the future, and Sheff has that whole PED allegation plus he wasn’t a kiss ass to the writers who gate keep the hall.
DarkSide830
Kidna crazy to me Mauer is 1st ballot but Posada didn’t even stick on the ballot.
BaseballisLife
Because they were no where near as dominant as Wagner.
dasit
bernie is better than people remember check his numbers from 1996-2002
posada is my all-time favorite player. he wasn’t made a starter until his age 30 season otherwise he’d be in
azcrook
Buster Posey will be the next catcher in the HOF
User 2079935927
@azcrook Not before Stassi…lol
28rings
Pettitte and Sheffield both linked to PED… veterans committee will put Posada and Bernie in eventually.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
Only Sheffield deserves it amongst those four. You’d be better off bringing up Munson who should be in the Hall. But don’t bring up Earle Combs, Phil Rizzuto, Lefty Gomez, Catfish Hunter, Tony Lazzeri, Herb Pennock, Joe Gordon (borderline), Waite Hoyt, because if you did, you’d prove IM’s point.
TigersLoveCinnamon
You say check 96-02, yet his best year was 95 where he was actually decent defensively. Pretty bad every year after that
EscapedFromLA
Could be. Buster will be class of 2026. Now idea who else will be on the ballot then. The year after will have Yadier Molina. I see a very high chance of Yadi being a first ballot HoF’er.
Johnny Devil
The kid was still throwing gas when he walked away. Shameful Wagner isn’t in the hall. Almost as Shameful as Pete.
Sunday Lasagna
If any GM had their choice of having a player with Andy Pettitte’s career stats or Bill Wagner’s they are taking Andy every time. Wagner was a great reliever but the value of a one inning pitcher can’t be compared to a starter.
fox471 Dave
No.
28rings
neither was Big Papi… maybe Posada would be in if he took what Oritz did
28rings
a dWAR of around (-1) that he had from 96-01 is not BAD for a MLB centerfielder, especially with his offensive skills, it’s just slightly below average “for a centerfielder”.. he’d be well above league average if they had a need to move him to the corner OF spots… his dWAR after that was bad, but by then he was 33 and past his prime…. Andruw Jones (arguably the greatest defensive CF) has a negative dWAR after age 30 as well….
Joe says...
I M Insane let’s play a game. For every borderline Yankee that got in that you think shouldn’t, I will name two borderline Yankees who didn’t make it.
Non Roster Invitee
The Yankees would not have won a World Series.
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
Only Queens could handle him.
deGrom/Langford Texas Ranger
Hopefully, Bonds, Beltran (even as a Texas fan who dislikes Houston), and Manny Ramirez make it in. Sheffield unfairly got grouped in with the others, while Ortiz was essentially in a similar situation and got in instantly.
avenger65
deGrom: bonds should NEVER be in the HOF. I find it interesting that when McGwire was proven to be a PED cheater they took the single season HR record away from him. But even after bonds admitted using PEDs they still haven’t erased his bogus records and other statistics
KingKen
Who took it away from McGwire? He was listed as the single season HR leader for the 3 years he held the title and is still listed at #2 on the list.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
No one took the HR record away from McGwire (except Bonds and kinda Sosa) and he never got an asterisk. But Maris got an asterisk. Maybe you are confusing Roger Maris with Mark McGwire? That’d be silly, but……….
gbs42
avenger, where did you get the idea anyone took away McGwire’s record?
Trollfree
Davidk1979 – As a fantasy player for 4 decades I remember where players went in drafts and Wagner was never a top closer pick. In fact, other than a few great years he always seem very mediocre but he could throw 100 so people talked about him.
Considering how long it took voters to recognize maybe the best closer of all time,Trevor Hoffman, it’s not surprising Wagner has been over looked. If Hoffman had been a Yankee he would have been a first year unanimous selection. Wagner would be in by now if he had been a Yankee.
The BOGUS HOF is located in NY and caters to the NYY. Dozens of non Yankees have had to wait far longer than they should have. It’s a joke.
Add to that Selig changing the baseball in 1995 and an entire generation of baseball players being robbed of their place in the HOF because Selig suggested the massive HR jump was steroids NOT THE BASEBALL he changed!! Then the HOF elected Selig. How f’d up is that?
Bonds, McGwire and all the steroid generation guys should have been judged like every other generation because there is no proof steroids was the cause of their sudden success. The juiced baseball, however, closely correlates with the jump in HRs. So Selig secretly cheated to raise attendance at baseball games and then gets to be in the HOF and some of the greatest players of all time are not allowed in because of his lie.
Great tribute to baseball. Kennisaw Mountain Landis has probably rolled over twice in his grave over the wrongful steroid scandal which should have been called the Juiced Ball scandal and then the Cora sign stealing scandals. One group gets wrongfully punished then the three culprits behind the biggest cheating scandal get off with a slap of the hands.
THE HOF IS A JOKE!!!
User 2079935927
Troll-You could saved all that verbage and just put HOF is a joke.
Not everyone is going to agree who should get in and who shouldn’t.
Beltre was an excellent excellent defensive player. Amazing .
Too bad he spent 4 years in exile in Seattle.
I hope during the HOF Ceremonies as Beltre is waking up to the podium to give his speech someone touches his hair.
I know he hates that. Anyone know the back story to that?
fox471 Dave
Actually, Troll, your post, if not a joke, is pretty funny.
JoeBrady
there is no proof steroids was the cause of their sudden success.
=================================
No one goes from a 35-HR (1 per 13.56 ABs) type to hitting 73 (1 per 6.52 ABs) at age 36 without help.
Blue Baron
@davidk1979: It would be nice. But whether he does or not, life will go on as we know it.
deGrom/Langford Texas Ranger
Don’t worry. Honus is already in.
AngelsFan1972
Congrats to all!
Habitual Truth Teller
Good for Joe Mauer. Cut short by injuries but dude was the best catcher in baseball for a long while.
mlbnyyfan
Congratulations to the players. How is Beltre in the Hall but not Neetles.
dshires4
Because Beltre was better.
CardsFan57
I think Nettles should be in but Beltre is better across the board.
User 2079935927
There’s always a chance the Veterans committee will vote him in. I’m hoping Bobby Grich goes in with Trammel.
SimbaHOF2019
Grich and Dwight Evans both deserving. Played before advanced metrics.
fitted54
Beltre has over 3,000 hits, more homers and rbi than Nettles
rct
To echo others, Nettles is more than deserving and should definitely be in but Beltre was much better.
gwynnpadreshof2007
Nettles: 22 yrs .248AVG, .750OPS, 2225 Hits, 390 HR’s 6xAS, 2xGG, 67.9 WAR
Beltre: 21 yrs .286AVG, .816OPS, 3166 Hits, 477 HR’s 4xAS 5xGG, 2xPlat Glove, 93.5 WAR
Maybe that is how Beltre got in and how Nettles isn’t really deserving
CardsFan57
In fairness, Nettles would have won a lot more gold gloves if he hadn’t been competing with the best fielder to ever play the game – Brooks Robinson.
TrumboRedux
To get 2225 hits with a .248 career BA you better keep your butt in the show for 22 years!
AngelsFan1972
I get your argument BUT couldn’t that be said about just about anyone else?
All the SS who played during Ozzie Smith’s career?
Same for Omar Vizquel?
Pitchers in same era as Maddux?
Catchers when Pudge was back there?
shall I continue?
TrumboRedux
AF1972, it’s still a fair point in terms of measuring greatness. You gotta be able to make the comparisons to other players. Especially if we are only talking GH’s here. But it really extends to any comparison you want to make between multiple great players and their stats.
CardsFan57
I say that because Nettles is in the all time top 5 for dWAR at 3B. He was elite defensively being compared to the most elite fielder of any position.
AngelsFan1972
In other words had he put the ball in play more he would have had more hits………….
I understood the argument. I was merely pointing out it was a little flawed.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
Or maybe that they both are but one is a sure first ballot hall of famer and one will have to go through a tumultuous process to get in.
CardsFan57
That analogy is horrible. There’s only one gold glove per year for each position in the league. Who you compete against matters a great deal. The other hitters have nothing to do with the number of hits you get.
stymeedone
Aurelio Rodriguez deserved a gold glove or two during the “Lets give it to Brooks again” era. It used to be so much easier before stats. They could just continually give the award to the same player based on reputation, rather than actual performance. Brooks was amazing, just not the actual “best” every year.
AngelsFan1972
You are right. Perhaps I stretched my point a tad bit too far.
I wasn’t arguing the Nettles doesn’t deserve to get it. But I doubt he isn’t in because he didn’t win more GG’s
TrumboRedux
*GG’s
TrumboRedux
I guess winning a lot of GG’s makes any player look more attractive, especially when they are on the fringe. Maybe it will help Arrenado get in one day haha I don’t know.
CardsFan57
Luckily I think they have simply started taking defensive stats into consideration. I think that’s a good thing, especially at defense first positions like 3rd, short, and center. I also think Andrew Jones deserves to be in because for ten years he was the best defensive center fielder who ever played the game. He coupled it with high level offense for those ten years.
fox471 Dave
He batted .248 for his career.
uvmfiji
LOL Nettles was Pete Rose WAR good!
JoeBrady
I’m one of the few that thinks Nettles should even be on the veteran’s ballot, but Beltre was twice as good.
RodBecksBurnerAccount
Nettles numbers are no where near Beltre’s.
TrumboRedux
Maybe the most impressive/best hitter in the game for a while as well!
MWeller77
I’m curious: from when to when would you say Mauer was the best hitter in the game? IIRC Pujols broke in three years before and Cabrera a year before, and I think they were always better hitters than Mauer. But I haven’t looked at the stats closely so I’m curious to know what you think.
TrumboRedux
I would say for about 3-4 years. 06-09. Not as many homers as those 2 but equally impressive to me. Just as dangerous of a hitter to me.
Joe Kerr
As a WSox fan, I can tell you that it always felt like he got 2 or more hits per game, was knocking in an rbi or 2 just taking what the pitchers gave him. He was also smart behind the plate, good arm, just too bad he couldn’t stay back there due to concussions. Always a team first player, doing what he could do to win. I met him when he was a rookie looking like a real tall 14 year old . and he was super nice and down to earth. So much respect for this man. He 100% deserves to be in IMO
TrumboRedux
JoeK, That sounds about right!!
fox471 Dave
Mweller: they weren’t catchers!
KingKen
I wouldn’t really call 6 years a “long while”. And that’s the period of time Mauer primarily played as a catcher, from 2005 through 2010. After that he played more DH and 1B than catcher.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
Yeah because he didn’t catch EVER again after his switch until his final game (for one ceremonial symbolic pitch).
metslvt17
Billy Wagner should get in next year. Too bad for Sheffield though. He was a close call.
skinsfandfw
The Veterans Committee will let him in a la Crimedog
Pads Fans
sfgate.com/sports/shea/article/sheffield-tells-of-…
Sheffield won’t get in. Veterans hate steroid users much more than BBWAA voters do.
skinsfandfw
Pads – He never failed a test. It all comes down to whether or not people believe his story about not knowing what the cream had in it.
BaseballisLife
Skin, Sheffield ADMITTED he used steroids. He failed a test in 2003. Named in the Mitchell Report. The evidence is irrefutable that he cheated.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
I am not doubting you but can you show the link where he admits to using? I have never seen it. And, to be fair, steroids were part of the game during his time. Many users are in. Sheffield, Bonds, Sosa, McGwire (etc) never failed a test after rigorous testing and punishment came into being. I also don’t think failing a test should be an automatic HOF rejection. People can make mistakes. Everyone reading this would be sent to Pastafarian Hell based on that logic.
mrmackey
His training partner was Barroid.
BaseballisLife
ONE of the links is above in Pads post. Google it and you will find their are entire books about it.
its_happening
BALCO?
redsoxu571
McGwire didn’t fail a test because he two full seasons retired before testing began. Sosa didn’t fail a test, but his career fell off the table hard at the same time, so…not hard to connect the dots there. Bonds didn’t fail a test, but there is a mountain of evidence that proves his massive usage beyond any shadow of a doubt. Sheffield has the weakest case in terms of playing without dropping way off while testing is happening and such, so he’s left to be judged by other potential evidence.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
Books about Sheffield admitting to steroids? I doubt that. I googled the claim, and while technically true (Pud Galvin, Mickey Mantle, and Babe Ruth have also admitted to using steroids, just so people know), there is a caveat: Sheffield claimed he used them unknowingly while living with Bonds and working out with him.
fox471 Dave
Well that is you.
kylegocougs
Okay Todd Helton wasn’t juicing give me a break
TheMan 3
Helton played his entire career in Colorado. Suggesting he was “ juicing “ indicates that you don’t know about the light air as a result of higher altitude and the ball travels higher
Then again nothing surprises me on this site
I.M. Insane
Check Todd’s bloated steroid-era stats.
hiflew
Check the fact that Coors wasn’t using a humidor the first few years of Todd’s career.
DrDick
Check his entire career of home and away stats.
stymeedone
They weren’t using a humidor when he played. The ball flew in Mile High.
fox471 Dave
Drdick, yes. Home and away is the key.
jramey1
And people don’t look at the other prospective: Having to adjust when leaving Coors. The grind of coming and going of Coors field has to be the hardest mental and physical adjustment in all of baseball.
hiflew
Okay I will. Helton’s career road OPS (.855) is substantially higher than the total career OPS of both Adrian Beltre (.819) and Joe Mauer.(.827).
redsoxu571
How was Helton juicing? He played a number of very productive seasons under testing, his career followed a proper non-PED baseball career arc, etc. His numbers are bloated because Coors Field was broken for most of his career, but Helton’s road numbers represent the very very good (shouldn’t be a HOFer, but next-best thing IMO) hitter and player he really was.
TrumboRedux
First time I have ever even heard that nasty little rumor.
JoeBrady
He likely didn’t use. That’s a claim people often use to justify rooting for a player that did use PEDs.
hiflew
Helton’s road slash lines are better than Beltre’s total slash lines. Are you saying Beltre doesn’t deserve to be in either?
Yanks2
Mauer is no where close to being in the HOF so this shows what a joke it has become. Where in his stats or where is there longevity that even remotely has him in HOF discussions?
Motown is My Town
First catcher to win the batting title since Ernie Lombardi in the 40’s and he won it 3 times. He was elite long enough to achieve this honor. Sometimes it not just the longevity or the stats and Mauer is one of those cases….
JHoward1030
Three years is not a career bro. You have to have certain stats at the end of your career. Mauer doesn’t have it, especially since he spent a third of his career as a mediocre no power first baseman just to get the career numbers he has which are woefully unimpressive. Didn’t even drive in 1,000 runs. Let’s put Chase Utley in next year to further make a joke out of the Hall Of Fame. This new age of voters wants to put everybody in and it’s disgusting.
Steve(shs22)
56 career War for Mauer
Yadier Molina has 43 or 45 for comparison sake
baseballpun
I have no problem with Mauer getting in. But Molina caught 2184 games. Mauer caught 921.
Unclemike1525
You do know you’re not eligible until 5 years after you retire right?
User 2079935927
Baseballspun-He’s not eligible to be on the ballot until for 5 years.
baseballpun
Yeah I know….Steve brought up Molina.
User 2079935927
Yeah. they do that in case a retied player decides to un retire after 1 year or so.
The real Oscar Gamble
And 46.1 war in 10 and a half years for Thurman. I think he might belong in there
phenomenalajs
Mauer, 40, who played in 15 major-league seasons, all with the Minnesota Twins, won American League batting titles in 2006, 2008 and 2009, the most by a catcher. He was the AL MVP in that 2009 season when he hit .365 with career-high totals in home runs (28) and runs batted in (96) and becoming the first catcher in either league to lead the majors in on-base average plus slugging percentage (1.031). Mauer, who spent his final five seasons primarily at first base, is the only catcher in history with at least 2.000 hits (2,123), a .300 batting average (.306) and a .380 on-base percentage (.388).
Sid Bream Speed Demon
Except five seasons of that didn’t occur at catcher, did it?
avenger65
Sid: Good observation. They should only count his statistics for the time he was behind the plate before being called a great C. However, his overall offensive stats are good enough to get into the Hall, imo.
TexRanchHand
6 x All Star, 5 x Silver slugger, 3 x Gold glove, 3 x batting title, 1 x MVP, 3 other top ten MVP finishes. Career .306 ba. What is your criteria for the HOF? Walking on water?
Slow day at work
Not popularity awards, that’s for sure. I think Mauer deserves to be in the HOF, but I think it’s a travesty that he gets in before Andruw Jones who is a more worthy candidate.
fox471 Dave
Did you see Jones play after Atlanta? Terrible!
TrumboRedux
Come on Yanks, Even if you didn’t think his resume is as impressive as the voters did, saying he is “nowhere close” to being HOF worthy is a big stretch.
DrDick
If he played his entire career as a catcher. Let’s face it… he was a lousy 1B for a third of his career.
fathead0507
3 batting titles , 3 gold gloves.. higher WAR than Molina.. yea what a bum
TrumboRedux
Higher WAR than Molina? Interesting..Nice stat fathead!
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
Clearly the writers and most fans think you (Yankee Doodle Dandy) is full of Shiiiiit. I commend you being so boldly ignorant.
DeepDownSouth
Only player of that 3 that made HOF inductees should be Beltre. The other 2 no so fast. HOF voting is bigus
TrumboRedux
Bigly? Or Bogus?
redsoxu571
If you think Mauer isn’t a HOFer, you have no idea what the HOF bar is a for a catch. He was a HOFer the day he put his catching equipment away; his decade of excellence at the position both offensively and defensively clear that bar. You don’t need longevity if your excellence is great enough – see Sandy Koufax.
TrumboRedux
WoooooOooo!!!! Amen!!!!!!
its_happening
This should put Munson into the HOF.
TrumboRedux
Munson should be in the Hall. I agree.
hiflew
He is actually very close. He will enshrined in July I believe.
Buzzz Killington
Andruw Jones when?
Bucket Number Six
2027?
Craviduce
He did go up in votes, just not enough. Ichiro and C.C. are on the ballot next year. Will Andruw be able to get 13.4% more in votes to crack 75%? That’s big leap in 1 year
Rsox
Ichiro may be unanimously voted in next year (or pretty close to it)
TrumboRedux
WooooOo!!!! Sure hope so Rsox!!
hiflew
When the Hall gets even more watered down to want to accept a guy that hit .254 for his career, which would be the lowest batting average of ANY Hall of Famer. Including all the ones that you guys say don’t belong. He was a great defender, but so was Jim Edmonds and Edmonds didn’t even get to 5% on his first ballot. Jones should not be anywhere close in my opinion.
brooklyn62
Preach it brother! Agree with you 100%! I’d take Edmonds over Jones all day long for HOF.
JHoward1030
Neither belongs. Edmonds who I am a fan of didn’t even reach 2,000 hits and his sub 400 home run total doesn’t make up for it. Thank God he already fell off the ballot years ago or he would be going in as well at some point with these pathetic voters in charge of it now. I hope some bonafide HOFers start speaking out about all these undeserving players getting in and watering it down like Deion Sanders did about the NFL HOF going the same way a few years ago.
avenger65
hiflew: I think Jones does belong in the Hall. Take a look at Ozzie Smith’s numbers. He couldn’t hit. It was strictly his defense (and back-flips) that got him in.
hiflew
Ozzie Smith “couldn’t hit” and yet he has 700 more career hits than Jones. So what does that say?
LouWhitakerHOF
Yeah i agree. The back flips …. Omar Vizquel had better numbers than Ozzie Smith. But those off the field issues has messed up Vizquel’s chances.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
Ozzie Smith got better as a hitter over time. He even hit over .300 one year. In fact, his offensive WAR is 48.8. which on its own is on the lower end of HOF borderline. Add in his 44.2 defensive WAR and he clearly deserves it. It’s these conservative voters and fans who can’t accept newer ways of analyzing the game that are freaking out.
Addendum: Smith finished second (barely) to Dawson in the MVP vote in 1987 BUT had a much higher offensive WAR than Dawson that year (and a much much higher overall WAR).
mrmackey
He had about 2000 more ABs.
Ozzie became a genuine pest with the Cards though. He was pretty bad as a hitter with the Padres.
SimbaHOF2019
Omar could carry Ozzies Jock strap. Hes a very poor man’s Ozzie Smith. Your the first person I have ever heard say that. Ozzie was a Much better hitter, Much better fielder, and much better base runner.. should have an MVP award as well.
hiflew
Longevity is part of the equation for the HOF as well. I think if Jones had tailed off in his 30s instead of absolutely dropping off a cliff due to his not staying in shape, he’d already be in the Hall. But he didn’t. In my mind, his career is nothing more than a good start with a bad finish. A lot of wasted talent.
JHoward1030
Agreed, shouldn’t even be in the discussion and should already be off the ballot.
baseballpun
Yeah I’m not advocating for either player but the disparity between Edmonds and Jones baffles me.
hiflew
There really wasn’t a lot of disparity at first. Edmonds got 2.5% of the vote in 2016. Jones got 7.3% of the vote in 2018 and only 7.5% the next year. Just a handful fewer votes for Jones either year and NO ONE would consider him in the HOF discussion other than a few hardcore fans. The only difference is people had more time to look at Jones since he topped the 5% mark, If Edmonds had stayed on the ballot after that first year, he probably would be somewhere in the 60-70% range also.
brooklyn62
I lived in Seattle during Griffey Jr’s prime years as a Mariner(1989-99),saw hundreds of games at the Kingdome and Safeco. TBH…IMHO,Edmonds was a better defensive CFer than Jr. M’s fans, take your best shot…
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
I agree hiflew. I think Edmonds and Jones are pretty equal with Jones getting a slight edge. I also think that if Lofton and Joe Nathan and Johan Santana had gotten that 5% we might be having some interesting conversations about them as well.
JHoward1030
I’m utterly disgusted by what these modern day writers are doing to the Hall. Their predecessors must be utterly disgusted. The Hall Of Fame used to be something very special. Now if you retired after 2005 and have 300 homers and 2,000 hits you get in. A decade ago guys like that fell off the ballot after 2 or 3 years. The standards for non middle infielders was 3,000 or close to and 500 or close to. If you didnt have that you weren’t getting in. Didn’t matter how many times you were shown on cable television highlight shows.
hiflew
Don’t you have a cloud to shake your fist at?
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
Conservative thinking is what ruins the game. If we stayed conservative, only one team would win their respective league. If we stayed conservative, free agency would not exist and players would be essentially forced to play for whatever team signed them for just peanuts.
Writers have generally done a great job in the post-integration era with their selections. And they have (slowly) changed with the times on how to evaluate players. It is the Veterans Committees (and its various incarnations) of ALL eras that have been the true head scratchers at times (a bunch of undeserving Yankees, Giants, Pirates, etc making hall in second half of 20th C for example).
TrumboRedux
Very happy for Mauer and Helton! Happy for Beltre too but figured he practically had both feet in the door already. Very let down about Wagner though..I can’t find the results anywhere. Anyone know what % Billy came in at??
Pads Fans
73.8% I think the HOF site says 5 votes shy.
TrumboRedux
**update** Darragh just updated article with vote counts! Thanks Darragh!
Unclemike1525
Those guys deserve the honor. But Billy Wagner gets screwed again. Sad.
TrumboRedux
UncleMike, I can’t find the voting results. What % did Wags come in at?
Unclemike1525
73.8
cbssports.com/mlb/news/2024-baseball-hall-of-fame-…
TrumboRedux
Thanks UM!
Hawkeye75
I wonder how many votes short that became
AndyMeyer
he came in 5 votes shy. Somewhere around 73 % I think
TrumboRedux
5 votes?! Ahhhh that is a freakin travesty!!! He HAS to make it next year right?????
Bucket Number Six
Next year will be Ichiro and Wagner.
TrumboRedux
That would be AWESOME!!! Solid pair to go in together! 2 of my all time favorites.
TrumboRedux
Solid TRIO to go in together!! Hah
hiflew
I think CC gets in too. Maybe not first ballot, he could be a 3rd or 4th ballot guy. But then again, I thought that about Mauer too.
avenger65
Ichiro should go in on the first ballot. There’s still the matter of Joe Jackson, the only hitter Ty Cobb feared.
Unclemike1525
Trumbo- I think Wagner gets screwed because he wasn’t exactly a Sportswriters dream. In fact if I remember right he was pretty cantankerous with most of them. Could be payback for some. But if that’s true they shouldn’t be allowed to vote.
TrumboRedux
He definitely said Joe was the best hitter he had ever seen but I also heard he said the same thing about Hornsby on occassion.
hiflew
I think the ship has sailed on Shoeless Joe. Although he did get a movie made about him which is far more than most HOFers. I would venture to say that more people remember him than Sam Crawford or Tris Speaker or many of the other hitters from the era that did get enshrined.
TrumboRedux
Speaker and his 792 doubles..That’s definitely a record that is never getting broken. Not even Pete could do it with his 40 years in the show.
stubby66
I’m sorry but what he did in Milwaukee that year proves he is a first time ballot. In all honestly I think he could’ve been a full time dh too and still be better then 3/4 of the dhs too.
hiflew
Crawford;s triples record of 336 is the more likely to never be broken considering there have only been two players (Clemente, Musial) since World War 2 to even get half way to it. And the current active leader is Charlie Blackmon with 61.
TrumboRedux
Agreed hiflew. And lets not even get into Walter Johnson’s Shutouts..
hiflew
Yeah I doubt any starting pitcher record (Wins, Innings Pitched, Shutouts, Complete Games) will ever come close to being touched again. But people will still try to argue that guys pitching 150 innings a year are much better than the guys that pitched 300-400 innings a year.
DeepDownSouth
Is that the years where the gloves were as small as the hand was? I hate when ppl compare the early 1900-1940 years. Wayyyy different type of baseball. Big hulking ball players in those years were 6’1 185 pounds. Modern teams of now would crush them guys
TrumboRedux
Plenty of the greats from that era could compete with the ones from today. Not every player has to be big and hulking.
fox471 Dave
Shoeless Joe not being in the HOF is truly a travesty.
Bucket Number Six
73.8%
exile
I think the voters are punishing Wagner for his postseason stats..
uvmfiji
I don’t think Davey Johnson is hall worthy but he was a better manager than Jim Leyland. And Leyland over Piniella is a crime.
Bucket Number Six
How about Bob Melvin?
retire21
Danny Murtaugh should be in before any of these 4 names mentioned.
avenger65
Bucket: Not sure, but I think Melvin is still active. Tune in to the Giants games this summer to find out for sure.
jason830
Beltre and Mauer I understand getting in but not so sure on Helton, he played half his games at Coors of course his stats would be ridiculous. He is a great player though.
CravenMoorehead
Don Mattingly and Keith Hernandez should be in if Helton is tbh
377194
Agree all three should.
powerslave777
Helton’s career road OPS is higher than both Beltres and Mauers home OPS (and road OPS). It’s not everything and there’s positional and defensive considerations, but I’d say Helton is as equal as these two.
CravenMoorehead
Helton is basically Will Clark with Coors Field padded stats
rct
You say that like it’s a bad thing. Clark was great and (imo) a borderline HoF himself.
CravenMoorehead
Loved “Will the Thrill” but unfortunately like Mattingly and Hernandez he is also not in the HOF
avenger65
I question whether Will Clark is worthy, but what might be keeping him out is his temper. He was a scary guy. Maybe he blew off the media one day and now they won’t vote him in. Same with Richie Allen. You vote a guy in based on his numbers, not how he treated the press.
JHoward1030
Not even close, not even worthy of discussion, and I saw 5 years of his solid but not great career every day here in Dallas.
JHoward1030
Well said.
fox471 Dave
Nope. He is right where he should be.
Rsox
The most glaring part of Helton getting in with fewer than 400 Home Runs is the fact that Fred McGriff was seemingly punished by being kept out for not reaching 500 and McGriff was about as consistent an offensive producer you could find before the late 90’s offensive explosion
JHoward1030
Why is it that the white boy gets in with inferior numbers on his 6th ballot while McGriff with decidedly superior numbers can’t break 40 percent with these guys in 10 years?
Dumpster Divin Theo
He was too busy taking a bite out of crime
hiflew
Why is it that certain people can get away with making racial slurs in comment, but others would be banned for life if the races were reversed?
JoeBrady
Nonsense.
McG and Helton both had almost identical OPS+, and Helton was a better fielder. Helton had a higher bWAR, and a higher bWAR/650 PAs.
I wouldn’t have voted for Helton, but he was a better player than McG.
17dizzy
All very deserving.
Jdice150
How does Sheffield not make it if Mauer does?
skinsfandfw
He never got along with the writers. Vets committee will let him in easily.
Jdice150
That’s so ridiculous lol, his numbers and longevity aren’t even subjective. Thanks for that info
BaseballisLife
Veteran committee has given a lower percentage of votes to known steroids users than the BBWAA voters. If he missed in his 10 years of voting the Veterans Committee is far less likely to vote him in.
MWeller77
I have a similar question: how much does Sheffield’s connection to BALCO affect his results?
I agree completely that Sheffield was a better player than Mauer, but I’m also conflicted on whether or not he should be voted in. I loved him as a player (that stance with the crazy bat action!), but if he’s dirty, then I think he should get the same treatment as players I didn’t like (eg Bonds).
Pads Fans
Admitted steroid use.
sfgate.com/sports/shea/article/sheffield-tells-of-…
skinsfandfw
Pads – He didn’t admit to using steroids. He admitted to using the cream, which he claims he didn’t know it had steroids in it. Big difference.
BaseballisLife
He admitted using steroids, he tested positive in 2003, and was named in the Mitchell Report.
He knew he was cheating.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
So? Half the players were doing it. Over a dozen players who used are likely already in the Hall. It was part of the game. The line should be drawn after testing and punishment was given teeth. And even then I think players should be given some leeway. One mistake shouldn’t keep a player out. People are human.
fox471 Dave
One mistake kept Shoeless Joe out. Forever, apparently. Pete Rose should have an entire wing at Cooperstown.
deeds
Love seeing guys who stayed with one team their entire career make it in.
mlb1225
I only hear about the characters clause to keep great players out. Mauer is a case where it may have helped a good player get in. You never hear anything bad about Mauer. Just a good player with an outstanding reputation. That should count for something in his Hall candidacy
avenger65
MLB: Cobb wasn’t exactly the nicest guy in the game, but he’s one of the five chartered members when the hall opened. The media is so flawed. You vote a guy in based on what he did on the field, not how he treated the media.
cbraves
Mauer gets in but not Sheffield or Jones?
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
You are correct. Mauer is a first ballot HOFer but Sheffield and Jones are not. Thank you for paying attention.
fox471 Dave
Not Jones! .248 lifetime BA. Good lord.
Goose
Mauer and Helton were solid players but NO WAY Hall of Fame Mauer’s career got derailed by injuries but he is like this generations Fred Lynn. Good player but that is life. Helton played his career in Colorado. He didn’t even break 400 home runs at 1B and half of his career he didn’t even hit 20.
TrumboRedux
Goose, not only is Mauer an easy HOF choice, but easy enough that he is 1ST BALLOT! His stats speak for themselves. MVP, 3 GG’s, 3 batting titles (as a freakin catcher!), .306 career hitter, over 400 dubs, only struck out 100+ times in a season once (1034K’s in a 15yr career).
TrumboRedux
3 batting titles is super elite company and unrivaled for a catcher.
JHoward1030
Barely 2,000 hits and less than 1,000 rbi is not a HOF. Let me educate the easily impressed which sadly now includes most of the HOF voters. The Hall reserved for the best 1 percent of players who ever put on a major league uniform. Three great years or five great years is not enough if the career numbers aren’t there. The only one who had HOF worthy numbers elected was Beltre. Wagner and Carlos Beltran should have been voted in. All you Helton marks go take a look at Carlos Beltran’s career stats and Helton’s and you will see the difference in a true hall of famer and a bogus one.
TrumboRedux
Sorry, I respectfully disagree.
hiflew
Helton wasn’t a HR hitter. He was a doubles hitter. You might as well get mad because he didn’t steal enough bases or win a Gold Glove at third base. It just wasn’t really part of his game.
And BTW, this is the MLB Hall of Fame and Colorado has been a part of MLB for 32 years now. Playing in Colorado should not be a punishing factor.. Unless you plan on keeping Kershaw out because he pitched his whole career in Dodger Stadium as well,
TrumboRedux
hiflew, Spot…ON!
The idea that an otherwise HOF bound player should be “punished” for playing @ Coors is one of the most maddening things in the world to me!
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
Or every Yankee hitter who had 275 foot left field fences.
brooklyn62
Amen! I’m so tired of the Coors field argument! The fact that Helton attained his stats should be proof enough of his ability as a ballplayer. How many other players that donned a Rockies uniform have the same career stats? Should we also examine every HOfer that was a LH hitter that took advantage of the short porch in Yankee Stadium or every RH batter that took advantage of the monster in Fenway? The absolute fact is that a player that is deserving of HOF consideration/enshrinement actually delivers at the plate no matter where he plays!
DeepDownSouth
Rightfully 295
fox471 Dave
Well said, hiflew. Helton belongs.
JHoward1030
If he wasn’t a home run hitter he needed to get there on his hot total and 2,500 is not enough. If he had say 2,700 hits to go along with that weak sub 400 home run total I’d say you can have the Veteran’s Comitee put him in in day another 15-20
years.
hiflew
Well you can do that in your little fantasy world if you want. No one is stopping you.
redsoxu571
Mauer was not a “solid” player; he was a terrific all-around catcher for a decade. The Lynn comp doesn’t really work because his positional bar is very different from that of Mauer. Also, Lynn didn’t fall off nearly as early or hard as made out to be; that perception is fueled in large part by the era he played in, which was not strong offensively.
Rick Pernell
Steroids – No Steroids
No Sheffield either – THANK YOU!!!
Lars MacDonald
Todd Helton Home / Away splits:
AB 4038 / 3924
HR 227 / 142
RBI 859 / 547
SO 514 / 661
BA 345 / 287
OBP 441 / 386
OPS 1048 / 855
If you doubled the away numbers, would that get you in the Hall?
Pads Fans
Now compare that to other home away splits of his era. Look at OPS+, a stat that adjusts for ballpark and league, for others in his era, Helton belongs. A no doubter that has been kept out for far too long.
BaseballisLife
4 HOF 1B with a lower ROAD OPS than Helton.
redsoxu571
133 OPS+ is not particularly impressive for a 1Bman. He had some great OPS+ figures in his prime, but it couldn’t be more obvious that certain players received larger boosts than the typical hitter and he was one of those. Baseball shouldn’t be played in thin air, and while that isn’t Helton’s fault we should be thoughtful about his case. Either way, he was a terrific ballplayer and no insult to be included so it’s not a big deal either way.
JoeBrady
redsoxu571
133 OPS+ is not particularly impressive for a 1Bman.
=================================
That’s my argument as well.
Dewey Evans had a 127 OPS+ and a great fielder.
Reggie Smith had a 137+ and a great fielder.
Grich had a 125+ and a great fielder.
I would take those three guys in a heartbeat over Helton.
baseballpun
That’s not really fair, as Coors seems to have an effect of deflating the away numbers as well as inflating the home numbers.
But regardless, part of the criteria is contribution to your team(s). Guys like Helton who are true, career-long faces of franchises I do think deserve a little extra consideration beyond the pure numbers. Not that everyone who spends 15 years with one team should be in the HOF, but the fact that Helton is THE Colorado Rocky (Rockie? Rockies?) should boost him from borderline to over the line.
hiflew
We prefer Rockie as singular.
The reason Rockies hitters have lower away numbers than the rest of the league are three fold.
1. With the unbalanced shedule, a full one third of the Rockies road stats were SD, SF, and LA. Three of the most pitcher friendly stadiums in the league. When calculating an average, that really drags down good numbers.
2. There is a proven effect of breaking balls not working the same in Coors as elsewhere. Rockies hitters always have a tendency to need a game or two to catch back up when starting a road trip. It’s been that way since 1993 and probably will never change.
3. And most importantly in my mind. The Rockies are the only hitters that don’t get Coors Field stats added to their road averages. When the schedule was unbalanced, Coors Field accounted for over 10% of the road totals for all 4 other NL West teams. Nobody ever said anything about that.
Kaz
I dunno, if you doubled his BA, OBP, and OPS I’d say he was the greatest player of all time but that’s just my opinion.
RockinRobin
Awesome.
rct
So he had a slash of .287/.386/.469/855 over nearly 4000 ABs on the road? And you’re saying this trying to discredit him?
redsoxu571
It’s not discrediting him; for the era in which he played, that line from 1B was still very good, but not even remotely HOF worthy. Baseball is the thinker’s sport, and we shouldn’t disparage or straw man analysis efforts.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
How many hitters are much better at home than on the road? GO take a look.
Quick example (homeruns):
Chuck Klein 191 home 109 road
Ron Santo 217 home 125 road
Mel Ott 323 home 188road
377194
Add some Gold Gloves.
fox471 Dave
Lars: Helton was a hitter, not a home run guy. Everyone wants to talk about Coors field. Ok. For comparison, Helton’s away batting average was .287. Beltre’s CAREER batting average was .286.
Bluemarlin528
The hall of good
hiflew
So don’t go there if it bothers you that much, I don’t get how people get SO upset because someone that spent 20 years of their life entertaining YOU gets a small plaque in a museum to honor their career. Would you go to a retirement dinner at your job and complain about the guy getting a gold watch because there were far better workers than him?
JHoward1030
Because it’s supposed to be for the best of the best. It is supposed to be and was a sacred honor and ultra exclusive. Not for players who are equal to be about a hundred other non deserving players who must also get in if the standards are going to be lowered so much. For non middle infielders the HOF benchmarks are 3,000 hits 500 homers or close to one or the other. Is that standard of excellence so hard for you to understand?
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
There will ALWAYS be disagreements and mistakes. There will ALWAYS be changes in understanding the worth of a player. This is not static despite your protestations otherwise. And besides, PLENTY of mediocre players have made the hall in the past. Just roll your eyes and appreciate the ones you think deserve it.
dave frost nhlpa
Todd Helton?????
Not better than
Munson,Mattingly,Wagner,Sheffield,Jones,Evans,Albert Belle.
Asterisks? Should be on his plaque (Baines too).
exile
Helton hasn’t been proven to be linked to PED’s like Sheffield.
avenger65
Dave Frost: Is that right? Munson isn’t in the HOF? That surprises me. You don’t vote a guy in because he died tragically in a plane crash, but he was a great C. He should be in. And what about Dave Parker? If he’s not in, he should be.
JoeBrady
As a RS fan, I’d say Munson was as good as Fisk, and Nettles was as good as Boggs. Just a little different.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
You’re an asterisk. So is your mom.
fox471 Dave
Comparing Baines and Helton is absurd.
Padres-Padres-Padres
All 3 are truly deserving of this honor. I think the voters got this exactly right.
swtnes34
I know Shef can be a little crusty at times but damn, 500 HRs in this game is 500 HOME RUNS!
CravenMoorehead
Sheffield should be in the HOF for his batting stance that we all probably tried to imitate at 1 point playing backyard baseball 🙂
Rick Pernell
No 500 steroid induced home runs is not 500 home runs. Bonds, McGuire, Clemens or ANY of the Astros shouldn’t even be allowed to visit the Hall of Fame.
Shoeless Joe Jackson is debatable but the rest of these clowns were pure CHEATERS!
CravenMoorehead
Who’s this McGuire guy? He related to Canseco’s fellow “Bash Brother” Mark McGwire?
DarrenDreifortsContract
Beltre is one of the most underrated players in the last 25 years. Well deserved.
And didn’t Helton suddenly loser all of his power after that steroids hearing?
Candy Maldonado
His power began to decline starting in his age 31 season. If you want to use the loose timing of some other steroid stuff going on elsewhere as the cause to discredit his candidacy, you’re gonna find 100 other HoFers whose power didn’t hold up in their 30s,too.
hiflew
Coincidence. Coors Field added a humidor around the same time which stopped most of the 15-14 games. Other things happened in the game that had nothing to do with steroids.
AHH-Rox
Helton lost power when he started having back problems. The humidor in Denver also made a difference; his big HR numbers were pre-humidor and he was always more of a doubles hitter than a big HR slugger.
hiflew
Exactly. Helton is the top 20 of ALL TIME in doubles. If you are in the career top 20 in just about any major category in MLB history, you deserve to be in the HOF.
stymeedone
Gallo should make top 20 in strike outs, if he’s not there already. Lets put him in!
DroppedThirdStrike
Coots Field is a cavern and ANYTHING in the gaps is a double. It led all stadiums in doubles, triples, and homers.
This is accounted for in OPS+, but you can’t just bring it up as a counting stat without acknowledging that all power numbers are grossly inflated by the stadium.
He was a premium hitter for many years but is a very fringy HOFer for me.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
Humidor and age. Look it up.
fox471 Dave
No and Beltre was more than deserving.
Awesom-O
Sheffield deserves to be in, man. Mauer’s boring, barely HOF career could’ve waited.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
Your mom is boring. She can’t even keep up with the winkle man.
Awesom-O
Good one
Pads Fans
They got it right. Cheaters Sheffield and Beltran.were kept out.
Wagner should get in next year if history is any indication.
Hawkeye75
I didn’t think Wagner had any years left. Thought this was his last year on the ballot.
Hawkeye75
I just read the ESPN article—next season is Wagner’s last year….He came about 5 votes shy this year so I expect he’ll make it in next year.
BaseballisLife
Let’s hope so. He deserves to be in.
BaseballisLife
1 more year for Wagner.
Comrade Tipsy McBlotto
I think Wagner is borderline but Joe Nathan deserves it as much as him.
fox471 Dave
One more.
amk1920
A Coors Field 1B from the steroid era lmao
CravenMoorehead
Imagine 2001-2004 Barry Bonds playing home games at Coors Field
redsoxu571
I’d like to imagine a 2001-2004 Bonds who wasn’t shooting up a massive amount of steroids.
redsoxu571
I think Helton should have fallen short, but that’s terribly unfair. There’s zero evidence of any sort (even visual analysis of his body type) that suggests he was a roider. He was a supreme bat and eye guy who raked doubles and drove enough of those over the fence, who then saw his numbers see a big boost from his home ballpark. That should be factored in, but it’s not his fault. We’re talking about a .390 OBP guy from ages 34-37.
mlb1225
I know a lot of people are wondering how Mauer got in, but judging someone who played their best seasons as a catcher makes it a different beast to judge. I would have voted for him personally, but even I am a little surprised he was first ballot.
HalosHeavenJJ
I always liked watching Mauer play. Beltre was just magic with the glove and carried a big bat.
Sheffield was a better player than David Ortiz and failed fewer PED tests than David Ortiz. It sucks the bar is set that low, but it is. As such, he should be in if Artificially Big Papi is.
Informed Sportsball Discussion
If only Sheffield had a smile that made people feel really good about themselves, and had given himself a fun nickname like Big Sheffy.
CravenMoorehead
Both of you are spot on.
avenger65
Big Fly Sheffy.
BaseballisLife
Not true Halos. Sheffield admitted he used steroids, failed a test in 2003, and was named in the Mitchell Report.
Sheffield production declined after testing started. Ortiz’s production got better after testing started.
HalosHeavenJJ
The report written by a Red Sox employee that conveniently left out all Red Sox players?
My mistake on the fact he failed as many tests as Ortiz.
But Ortiz admitted to taking a level of tests you only receive for being in the program and getting his results in the mail which only happens when you fail. The fact he out did a 40 year old Bonds is proof he was roided to the end.
BaseballisLife
It didn’t leave out Red Sox players.
Informed Sportsball Discussion
According to Bing Chat, here are all 89 players who were named in the Mitchell Report.
Someone else can figure out who was on the Red Sox roster at the time, and whether or not “former Red Sock” is part of this definition.
Rick Ankiel
David Bell
Marvin Benard
Gary Bennett Jr.
Larry Bigbie
Barry Bonds
Kevin Brown
Paul Byrd
Jose Canseco
Mark Carreon
Jason Christiansen
Howie Clark
Roger Clemens
Paxton Crawford
Jack Cust
Brendan Donnelly
Chris Donnels
Lenny Dykstra
Matt Franco
Ryan Franklin
Eric Gagne
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Jay Gibbons
Troy Glaus
Juan Gonzalez
Jason Grimsley
Jose Guillen
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Matt Herges
Phil Hiatt
Glenallen Hill
Darren Holmes
Todd Hundley
Brian Hunter
Todd Jones
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Tim Laker
Mike Lansing
Paul Lo Duca
Nook Logan
Josias Manzanillo
Gary Matthews Jr.
Mark McGwire
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Bart Miadich
Hal Morris
Daniel Naulty
Denny Neagle
Jim Parque
Andy Pettitte
Adam Piatt
Todd Pratt
Stephen Randolph
Adam Riggs
Brian Roberts
John Rocker
F.P. Santangelo
Benito Santiago
Scott Schoeneweis
David Segui
Gary Sheffield
Mike Stanton
Miguel Tejada
Julian Tavarez
Fernando Tatis
Ron Villone
Jason Varitek
Ismael Valdez
Matt Williams
Steve Woodard
Kevin Young
Gregg Zaun
Rick White
Jeff Williams
Matt Herges
Kevin Witt
Rudy Seanez
Eric Chavez
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Matt Lawton
Mike Morse
Jay Gibbons
Rick Ankiel
Paul Lo Duca
Troy Glaus
Scott Schoeneweis
Ketch
I count at least 12 former Red Sox on that list.
shosho
There are several repeated names on that list
Informed Sportsball Discussion
Right, hence “according to Bing Chat”. It’s possible the AI made a mistake or two, hence me mentioning it as the source.
To be fair, maybe not everyone knows what Bing Chat is.
HalosHeavenJJ
On the roster at the time of the report: 0.
Stan Papi
Rick Ankiel must have been bad he’s on naughty list 2x
DeepDownSouth
Looking at that Mitchell’s Report only solidifies my belief that Steroids use was way overrrated
DroppedThirdStrike
I’d forgotten all about Juan González. An animal.
Informed Sportsball Discussion
@Stan He did double secret probation steroids.
Hey, Bing Chat said. And Bing Chat is never wrong.
Non Roster Invitee
Surprised he didn’t stay on ballot longer.
Unclenolanrules
Man I’m glad I ain’t on that list.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Repeat offenders maybe?
Dumpster Divin Theo
Bing chat, is that the portly dude from Friends who unfortunately o’ded in a hot tub and the silver fox who crooned White Christmas
Hawkeye75
Wagner got hosed
Non Roster Invitee
Over 10.00 ERA in 14 postseason games outs him on the outside looking in.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
Joe Mauer over Andruw Jones is the dumbest thing I have seen since Baines got in.
hiflew
The only dumber would be Andruw Jones getting elected at all. A .254 career batting average would be the lowest of any Hall of Famer, Mauer and Baines included.
HalosHeavenJJ
Jones played absolutely brilliant defense and at his peak had a decent bat (117 ops+ over his 20s, 111 for his career)
His 62.7 WAR is a bit low but still higher than David Ortiz. He just did his with a glove rather than a bat.
BaseballisLife
Ortiz was not an OF so you can’t compare the two.
Compare Jones to other OF.
hiflew
His WAR was higher than Mariano Rivera too, does that mean he should get higher than 100% if he gets inducted?
As far as offense v defense goes. In baseball, offense will always be more important. No matter how good your defense is, you still cannot win the game without scoring. No matter how bad your defense is, you can still outscore the other guy. Winning 9-8 is always going to be better than losing 1-0.
HalosHeavenJJ
I’m comparing Jones to the current low bar for entry.
HalosHeavenJJ
I hate WAR for pitchers.
A run saved is as good as a run scored. Run differential = winning. With good defense you can win 2-0. Having to score 9 runs a game isn’t sustainable.
hiflew
A run saved is not as good as a run scored. No one ever won a game 0 to negative 1. But plenty have won a game one to nothing.
And your example doesn’t work because good defense does not score 2 runs,. You can just as easily play perfect defense and still lose 2-0 due to 2 home runs. With good defense you can go to extra innings tied 0-0, but you still have to score at some point to win.
BaseballisLife
You. Can’t. Compare. DH. To. OF.
Compare CF to CF.
Jones –
Center Field:
62.7 career WAR | 46.4 7yr-peak WAR
Average HOF CF (out of 19):
71.6 career WAR | 44.7 7yr-peak WAR
Jones probably still belongs, but THAT is the comparison to make. Not to a DH.
Compare Ortiz to other players that played most of their career at DH and he is the 4th or 5th best ever. Thomas, Thome, Edgar Martinez. Those are his comps.
BaseballisLife
That is about the dumbest thing I have read today. A Run SAVED means it never makes it on the board so of course has the same value as a run scored.
HalosHeavenJJ
A Hall of Famer is elected based on the total value he provided on the field.
Currently the low bar for that value is 55 WAR.
Defending that by pointing out the 55 WAR player was incapable of playing defense or running bases just proves the 55 WAR player isn’t as valuable as many players who won’t get in.
BaseballisLife
A HOF is elected based on how he compares to other players at the position(s) he played in his career. So CF are compared to other CF. DH are compared to other DH.
Go Go Power Rangers
Congrats to Beltre! He was an inspiration during my teenage baseball years. Slickest Rangers 3rd baseman of all time.
CO Guardening
I think that’s a good class. Helton deserves it for sure, hopefully Wagner gets in next year.
leftcoaster
Let me get this straight, Mauer averaged about 9/10 home runs per year at catcher and first base and is in the hall of fame. That’s just great.
Samhaggertyplayoffhero
Homeruns is not everything
ntorsky
When you get on base 40% of the time, play elite defense at a premier position, and are adept enough at game/player management that you’re basically another bench coach, they tend to let you get away with things like low home run totals.
I.M. Insane
A good, but not great catcher, a guy who played his entire career in Denver and rocked during the steroid era and another cheater. The HOF is a farce now. The era of “every boy gets a trophy”.
avenger65
I.M. Insane: I know. I hate the everybody-gets-a-trophy-just-for-participating garbage. Expansion has definitely diluted the talent. How many really good catchers are there in the majors? Rutschman, Heim, Realmuto. I like d’Arnaud, but I don’t know if he’s a great C. Murphy can catch but is a little behind with his hitting.
HalosHeavenJJ
It is completely illogical at best.
The best steroid guys are out (Bonds, Clemens) while far less valuable roiders are in (Ortiz confirmed, Piazza, Ivan Rodriguez almost certainly).
It is clearly a club of guys who played nice with the writers.
BaseballisLife
Ortiz got BETTER after testing started in earnest and he had to be tested 10 times per year.
He was a mediocre player before testing started. 0.4 WAR per season. 108 OPS+. In the one season he tested positive for steroids during that preliminary test to see if testing would start he had a 120 OPS+.
AFTER testing started he averaged a 148 OPS+ and 4 WAR per season.
So without steroids (VERIFIED) he was the HOF player.
Wrian Washman
I assume this means Yadier Molina is a shoe in?
ntorsky
Should be, but they’re different players. Where Mauer has the edge in elite offensive production, Molina wins in longevity and sustained output. I might get in trouble for this one but at their peak, it’s a wash between the two defensively.
SimbaHOF2019
Yadi is the greatest defensive catcher ever. Every facet of catching he was the best. That alone should put him in. He also made himself a pretty good hitter.
DroppedThirdStrike
Bench was his equivalent on defense and Ivan was better. But Yadier was excellent.
BaseballisLife
He always has been.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Always has been a has been?
octavian8
Yes
Dumpster Divin Theo
Depends is Yadi a Nike or Adidas?
Oldguy58
Clueless voters
BaseballisLife
Clueless old guy.
splinkysf
This is a perfect vote outcome. If Bonds (no positive test), Clemens and Arod are excluded, I wouldn’t understand why Sheffield would be inducted. What am I missing there?
I am on the fence with Wagner, as are the writers.
Mad respect for this vote. Only objection— WHO WOULDN’T VITE FOR BELTRE?!
DarrenDreifortsContract
Adrian Gonzalez with less than 1%. At one point in his career it looked like he would be headed to the hall of fame one day.
Informed Sportsball Discussion
At least he’s in the Hall Of Former Padres Who Terrorized The Padres As Opposing Players.
baseballpun
This is largely off-topic, but I’m curious because there’s always the peak v. longevity argument when it comes to the HOF.
If Ohtani announced tomorrow that he was going to give the Dodgers their money back (in 40 years when he gets it) and quit baseball so he could become the world’s best soccer player, would you vote to put him in the baseball HOF based solely on what he’s done already?
avenger65
baseballpun: Yes.
88 Brooklyn Dodgers
Ohtani isn’t even remotely close to Hall of Fame worthy now. And he might never be worthy of it.
JCL10
Ohtani hasn’t played enough yet but when his career is over I guarantee he will be a first ballot hall of famer.
88 Brooklyn Dodgers
He won’t be a 2 way player again until his age 31 season (he’s already at the age when performance could fall off a cliff at any point and it likely will soon, as it does for the very large majority of players soon after entering their very late 20s/early 30s) and then who knows how much longer that will continue. It’s not certain at all that he will be deserving of the Hall of Fame. And it’s not because of getting a late start in MLB- he was only 23 when he first played in MLB. In all likelihood, he will either be undeserving of the Hall of Fame, or he will be barely deserving of it.
kje76
Wouldn’t be eligible – the rule is 10 seasons in the MLB. There have been waivers to the rule (Addie Joss only played 9 and change, for instance), but Ohtani’s 6 seasons are well too far under the mark.
Champs64
When considering whether a player is hall of fame worthy you must compare that player to players in the hall who play the same position. You cannot compare a relief pitcher to a catcher or a 3rd baseman to a center fielder.
baseballpun
What position do you compare Mauer to?
Prospectnvstr
baseballpun: Mauer (imo) is (should be) viewed as a catcher since that’s where he played the majority of his career, including his peak years.
baseballpun
According to baseball reference it was only about half of his games played.
Champs64
Baseballpun, agree with Prospectnvstr. Mauer has to be compared as a catcher. He definitely deserves to be a HOF player as a catcher. Ten of his best ten years were primarily as a catcher. An MVP, with four other years with down votes, five time silver slugger, three time gold glove, six time All Star. Only six other catchers in the Hall have a better JAWS rating. I think too much attention is placed on being voted into the Hall on their first ballot. Sometimes the field is just too crowded. This year it was not that at all.
sadmarinersfan
Wagner was just 5 votes shy…
Craviduce
yep…I thought he’d make it this year.
He’s in next year. No doubt. He’ll look good up their with Ichiro.
hiflew
No one will see him or Ichiro because CC’s frame will block them from view.
Dumpster Divin Theo
CC should get in solely for coining the phrase Weird Ass Minnesota Twins in his podcast rant about said weird ass Minnesota Twins and their selective outrage as the red ass self proclaimed defenders of the integrity of the game for throwing that Yermin Mercedes hissy fit
Dumpster Divin Theo
Wagner shy. Like the other Astro, Altuve. He shy too
TrumboRedux
The short one’s are always shy Theo…Don’t let baseball reference fool you. Wagner wasn’t a mite taller than 5’7!
Dumpster Divin Theo
The Houston wallflowers, p’shaw.
jumps
Happy for everyone who gets in, really happy for Helton. Shame Sheffield missed and hopefully Billy Wagner makes it, with it being his final eligible year.
Couple surprises though. Mainly Beltran and Utley, I’m surprised and would’ve thought their places on the list were reversed. Also, a little surprised that neither A-Rod or Manny got a bigger jump in votes. The steroid era is being forgiven as we get further away and at least Manny is more likable to the layman compared to guys like Bonds, Schilling, & Clemens. Just surprised they weren’t higher on the list.
Also, shoutout to that one voter who had Brandon Phillips on his list. While BP isn’t a hall of famer, during his peak, he was such a fun player to watch. One of those players who helped lead the resurgence of that franchise in the late 2000’s/early 2010’s.
avenger65
jumps: The steroid abusers are not being forgiven. Bonds was an obvious abuser, but Schilling said something he shouldn’t have (I don’t know what) and that’s what is keeping him out of the hall. Once again, piss off the media and you can forget about ever making it in even if you were a great player.
Manfred’s playing with the balls
Sheffield, Beltre and Helton were all likely PED users but only one of them pissed of baseball writers.
Ranger Danger19
Beltre had his best years by far in Texas long after the steroid era had ended and testing had become frequent. I think you’re a trash can banging troll
fox471 Dave
No they weren’t.
getrealgone2
Helton? yeeesh
deGrom/Langford Texas Ranger
I have a Beltre jersey and really enjoyed watching him play. With that said, I don’t think his longevity makes it fair for fans to unleash their wrath on whoever voted against him. He never really was a top 5 or 10 guy like Trout, Pujols, or Cabrera, but he was historically good at aging and ended up with one of the best contracts in Rangers’ history. Guys said he was overpaid, though I think he went from being underrated by a good amount to being a bit overrated. I am very glad I got to see this elite player for so long, and I really wish he got to win in 2011, but he at least got to throw out a 1st pitch on the WS run. I don’t usually overvalue defense, but I think thus guy’s above-average defense and elite offense made him rare, especially in his 30s.
Craviduce
I found it amazing he was only a 4 time all-star. 4 times???? Travesty
He deserved to go in. at 95%!
I was surprised he didn’t go in at more….what with the up to 10 person ballot that the BBWA has now.
Candy Maldonado
Almost 500 career home runs, all time great defender, 3000 hit club, almost 100 career bWAR (fifth all time among third basemen) and, if you’re talking about his peaks not being high enough, the sixth highest WAR among third basemen for his high 7 years.
Anyone who didn’t vote for him is a clown. Straight up. There’s a reason he was well over 90%.
jerseystrongsports
Mauer is in, but no Thurman. A joke, not to insult Mauer. But really???????
Old York
Hall of Mediocrity.
Meh…
hiflew
Oh well. Go watch soccer instead,
Old York
@hiflew
Oh, the bitterness of mediocrity must feel right at home for some. Enjoy your soccer – where every goal is as exciting as waiting for that Hall of Fame induction announcement.
Candy Maldonado
Even if you’re an anti-roid purist, still feels like a good handful of snubs here. Particularly Wagner and Jones.
JayRyder
If Mauer is in. Posey is in. I can see Helton. He was a force for that time period. Steroids or not. And the greatest Rockie. Has a lot going for him. Beltre got there thru longevity. Steroids? Probably something. But he played a long time. Gold gloves in general are iffy at best. And got a lot of hits. To me, Not a HOFer during his career. But a career worthy of induction thru longevity.
CentralFan71
The 19 voters that left Adrian Beltre off their ballots should be ashamed and have their voting rights removed. There is no argument for him not being a first ballot hall of famer. Just a bunch of grumpy old men wielding their power. So impressive…not!!!! And how the heck could Billy Wagner fall just 5 votes short on his penultimate BWAA ballot? They voters better get him in next year. It shouldn’t have to take him 10 years to get in. He is a sure fire hall of famer. He was flat out filthy and dominant. Other than that, glad to see Todd Helton and Joe Mauer get in the Hall. Very deserving and both were very talented football players, too. If they chose the other sport, maybe they would be in Canton right now. But, I think they made the right decision for sure. Congrats to this year’s class…including one of the best managers to ever grace the dugout in Jim Leyland!!!!
Viveleempireevil
If David Ortiz is a HOFer…then Gary Sheffield is 100% a HOFer.
BaseballisLife
Sheffield admitted using steroids, tested positive in 2003, was named in the Mitchell Report.
Most importantly Sheffield’s production fell once testing started and Ortiz’s went up after testing started.
Trollfree
Viveleempireevil – There is NO PROOF steroids changed the success of home run hitters. The juiced ball employed in 1995 changed the volume of home runs significantly. Selig did it. He got in and threw the players under the bus. By pointing to steroids the juiced ball never became publicized but check the numbers, it can’t be more clear. Writers don’t acknowledge it because that would mean they were fools in what they wrote about the impact of steroids. Verducci is the worst. He still contends it was steroids not the baseball despite the correlation coefficient between HRS and the Juice in the ball are far greater than the correlation coefficient of HRS and Steroids. In fact, that comparisons shows no relationship correlating the two!!! Not too many have publicized that fact!!! Why? Corruption in the highest segments of baseball. Corruption and commissions have a very high correlation!!
Sheffield should have been on the first vote just like Papi, Bonds, McGwire and Clemens. NO evidence but the players are still being persecuted.
Non Roster Invitee
Selig is in the HOF. LOL
Ranger Danger19
Congratulations to Mauer and Beltre. I have some pause in regards to Helton but it doesn’t matter what I think.
Curveball1984
Agreed on Beltre & Helton and congrats. Joe Mauer is NOT a Hall of Famer. Especially not 1st ballot. Maybe 25 years in the future on the Veteran’s Committee. Maybe.
JHoward1030
Mauer had a better case than Helton, but I agree he’s no Hall Of Famer, most certainly not first ballot. I hate how these new age writers are cheapening and polluting the HOF with all these undeserving Hall Of Very Goog players. The HOF used to be special until they gave the vote to all these needledick gen-x and millennial voters. I’m a millennial by the way and the only thing I appreciate about boomers is they atleast preserved the HOF for only those who truly deserved to be there.
JimEdmondsHOF
I always suspected Beltre to be a steroid user. Last season with LA before hitting free agency, no roids in Seattle, and then on the juice again in his one year with Boston and for the rest of his career. No proof of course, just a hunch. Helton as well, of course. On the other hand, I like the selection of Mauer, he looked to play clean–and so did freak of nature Wagner who will get in next year.
oldredgunslinger
Baloney.
BaseballisLife
Great job BBWAA. You got it right. Congrats to Beltre, Mauer, and Helton.
Would have loved to see Wagner get in, but he still has a chance next season.
For the Helton haters. There are 4 other HOF 1B that have a lower ROAD OPS. All players have lower road splits. His defense was exceptional.
JHoward1030
Doesn’t have the numbers. A first baseman must have 500 homers or 3,000 hits or somewhere within shouting distance of eithrf. His 363 Coors Field home runs and his 2,500 hits with no MVP don’t cut hall of fame mustard. Sorry but the Hall Of Fame is reserved for the best of the best, Helton is a tier or two below that.
BaseballisLife
Must eat at you that no matter what you think, he is 100% in the HOF.
4 other 1B that are in the HOF had a lower OPS. So Helton is above those 4 HOF 1B.
NOT sorry but all of your comment is BS.
JHoward1030
Only because the writers voting are a new generation of easily impressed fans like you. He’s not as bogus as Scott Rolen or Larry Walker but still totally undeserving.
BaseballisLife
Or morons like you don’t really understand wtf you are talking about.
If he is better than other 1B that are in the HOF then he is deserving.
TrumboRedux
No brainer Hall of famer. Just like his pal Walker!
JHoward1030
You are easily impressed. At this point why don’t we just put in every guy who made at least 5 all star games? That seems to be the standard these weak ass writers are setting.
TrumboRedux
3 batting titles isn’t quite the same thing as making an AS team a few times.
Slow day at work
“His defense was exceptional” his -5.0 dWAR says otherwise
JHoward1030
How many other first basemen are in that didn’t even have 400 home runs, 3,000 hits or an MVP? None of them had Coors Field enhanced numbers either. Carlos Beltran is a hall of famer, not Todd Helton.
kje76
Tony Perez
Gil Hodges
Johnny Mize
Bill Terry
George Kelly
Roger Connor
Dan Brouthers
Jake Beckley
Frank Chance
And Beltran is a non-flyer for obvious off-the-field reasons.
BaseballisLife
His DRS and RTOT tell a different story. If you want to be a hater you find a way even if it shows you never actually watched him play or looked deeper.
Slow day at work
Helton’s defense was pretty good, just not “exceptional” he definitely deserves to be in the HOF, IMO. But don’t embellish his accomplishments. Andruw Jones’ defense was exceptional, not Helton’s.
AHH-Rox
I’m just glad Helton got in so I won’t have another year of hearing the Rockies TV broadcasters go on and on about how deserving he is and how people misjudge the effects of Coors Field.
Baseball_dude
I didn’t see Mauer as a 1st ballot guy at all. Yes very good career, but not 1st Ballot
Jacksson13
How in the heck can 24% of the voters NOT include Joe Mauer.
The make-up of those having the PRIVILEGE of casting a vote
is clearly overdue for a review and overhaul.
Slow day at work
You got it backwards, how is it that 76% thought he deserves to be in the first ballot. That’s the real question.
30 Parks
Beltré was a leader & one of my all-time-favourites. Congrats to all four inductees – well deserved. Making Wagner wait another year speaks to the outdated methods of the HOF process.
88 Brooklyn Dodgers
joe mauer is **not** a Hall of Famer. Pathetic.
Trollfree
F22 – Actually his is and since you didn’t explain why he’s not I’ll explain why he is. Catchers haven’t hit much throughout the history of baseball. His three batting titles makes him incredibly unique. Add to it his good defense and great arm and he belongs. His time at 1B couldn’t be helped. Many great players have ended their careers at 1B and it didn’t tarnish what they did at their career position. Ernie Banks come to mind since I grew up in Chicago. Mauer deserves to be in.
Sky14
Actually just read that he is
JHoward1030
Couldn’t agree more. And the fact that he was elected on the first ballot is nauseating.
BaseballisLife
What is nauseating is your hate filled, uninformed garbage.
TrumboRedux
I just hope Elvis Andrus is at the induction ceremony to sneak up on stage while Beltre is giving his speech and pat him on the head.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Right??
JHoward1030
Joe Mauer is in no way shape or form a first ballot hall of famer. He didn’t play catcher long enough to get in on his numbers as a catcher and was a mediocre offensive first baseman. I don’t think he’s a hall of famer period, certainly not first ballot. This new generation of voters is so easily impressed putting in all these undeserving players in recent years like Scott Rolen and Larry Walker. Todd Helton is also not a hall of famer. He’s hall of great and comes up well short of a hall of fame career.
BaseballisLife
Both are HOF.
Trollfree
JHoward – Not sure what you beef is with Mauer but he was an exceptional catcher and then got moved to first to extend his career. Ernie Banks was a great SS and finished his career at 1B. At that point, he wasn’t as great a 1B as other career long 1Bs but his years at SS were exceptional just like Mauer’s were at catcher. ONE MVP and 6 of his 10 years at catcher he was top 20 in the MVP voting with four of the 5 when he didn’t win the MVP he was in the top 8. He won a Silver Slugger award 5 of the 10 years he caught and made the all=star team 6 times.
That’s a great career for a catcher. His years at 1B were disappointing but his 10 catcher years earn him a spot in the HOF as one of the greatest catchers ever.
FYI – Sandy Koufax had 7 ho hum years and suddenly got great in his 8th year and only pitched 5 great years and got in. Did he deserve to be there? Under your concepts the answer is no.
Frankly, I find it easier to justify Mauer over Koufax based on performance..
JHoward1030
My problem with Mauer is he barely cleared 2,000 hits and got many of those hits as a mediocre offensive first baseman. He also had no power. His credentials are much better than Scott Rolen, Larry Walker ot Todd Helton. He did win three batting titles and an MVP as a catcher and if he didn’t rack up so many of those barely 2,000 hits I would say yes as his career would be comparable enough to Gary Carter’s without the power. He was a much better hitter than Carter as far as average goes but as I said too many of those career hits came as a first baseman. Should have atleast waited until the fourth or fifth ballot. He doesn’t disgust me the way Scott Rolen does. If Rolen is a Hall Of Famer then so is Buddy Bell, Graig Nettles and a host of others who are decidedly not Hall Of Fame material.
hiflew
Graig Nettles? Please. The guy batted .248 for his career.
SimbaHOF2019
Rolen was better than Bell or Nettles and both those guys were great.. Do a little research and you will see. Rolen is a top 10 all time 3B. Watch some highlight reels if thats your thing.
TrumboRedux
JHoward, Re-check both of their stats.
ac000000
Probably not 1521 doubles for Helton
sweetg
Ortiz Sheffield . difference one guy was popular with media and fans. He is in. one guy gets benefit of doubt. Other is guilty.
This after all is group where next year someone will not vote for Ichiro but will vote Pedroia .
AHH-Rox
If we’re mentioning likely steroid users who got the benefit of the doubt due to popularity, Piazza has to join Ortiz at the top of the list.
Trollfree
sweetg – What a bizarre comment. Why would they vote against Ichiro and for Pedroia. Is this one of those ridiculous privileged comments?
Players should get in on the first vote if they earned it. Clearly Ichiro did and Pedroia also had an exceptional career that got cut short by injury (Thanks Manny Machado). But I dont’ believe anyone in their right mind thinks Ichiro’s career is less than Pedroia’s. Ichiro should be a year 1 choice and Pedroia based on other 2Bs will wait because 2Bs are not respected by hall voters unless they are Yankees. NY bias is huge in the voting and Pedroia played for their arch rival. Heck, Sandberg, arguably the greatest 2B of all time when he retired didn’t get in easily like he should have. The HOF voting is like mayoral voting, who do the powerful people in the HOF want in gets in and the ones they don’t want never make it until the Veteran’s Committee.
The HOF is all politics and I think that’s what your point was. Greatest players? NOPE Most liked? Maybe. Sheffield was not the guy who made the big speech after the Boston Bombing so he’s not as politically acceptable. It’s the way things work at the HOF. I agree with you but I don’t think Pedroia was a good example. He’s got no clout. He could drop off the ballet after the first year. Ichiro won’t even if he doesn’t get in the first year he is eligible. He’ll get in. Pedroia needs some powerful people to step up on his behalf to get in.
If I was picking teams in a sandlot, I would take Ichiro first, Pedroia second and Jeter third. That’s how screwed up the HOF voting is!!!
TrumboRedux
Ichiro is not just HOF worthy, he is in the running for best of all time in my book!
Enrico Pallazzo
Not sure how this is a trade rumor… but sure, I guess nothing else is going on.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Sing for your supper you imposter
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Honestly, these guys belong in the “Hall of Very Good,” but the Hall of Fame? Not sure they belong there (maybe Mauer), unless the standards have truly come down and we are letting a lot of guys in.
Belpre was great a few seasons but never his whole career and Helton was great but HoF?
Curt Schilling deserves it more than any of these three on stats alone.
Sky14
Schilling? And you want to criticize these guys as only belonging in the Hall of Very Good?
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Schilling is number 20 all time for strikeouts. Better than Glavine.
I know Belre has 3000 hits, but power hitters should have at least 500 homeruns. They should start using solid numbers rather than let everyone in.
BaseballisLife
Thanks for showing your ignorance of what matters.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
The ironic part is I have no clue which post of mine you’re even referring to.
Slow day at work
There’s nothing ironic about that.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Fair enough but he should be specific enough to make his post comprehensible.
BaseballisLife
Or you should make all of your posts comprehensible.
Slow day at work
@Chaim Breslow’s Purse why are you comparing Schilling to Glavine using strikeouts? Glavine was never a strikeout pitcher, he pitched to induce weak contact.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Okay, then. You obviously want attention or to pick a fight about something. Still have no idea what you’re fighting me about, but you can join the banned list.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
True, but Schilling has pitched far fewer innings and had great results. Point is, he has Hall of Fame numbers. Only reason he’s off the ballot is politics.
JHoward1030
Beltre clearly deserves to be in. He has over 3,000 hits and nearly 500 homers while playing exceptional third base defense. He’s a first ballot hall of famer without question. However, you are correct about the other two, neither deserves to ever get in. The true Hall Of Fame class from this year should be Beltre, Carlos Beltran, Billy Wagner and that’s it. Those guys are true hall of famers, Helton and Mauer totally bogus. Atleast they made Helton wait, Mauer getting in at all let alone first ballot proves this new generation of writers voting are a bunch of easily impressed fan boys. When I was growing up the standards were 3,000 hits, 300 wins and 500 homers. You had to have those numbers or a very well-rounded career at a middle infield position or catcher to make it. Otherwise, if you were a corner infielder or an outfielder you needed 3,000 or 500 or something very close to it like Andre Dawson and Carlos Beltran who are both very close to 3,000 hits and 500 homers. They both also stole over 300 bases and played gold glove defense.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
I don’t know about Beltre. Beltre was always overrated. He had a spectacular 2004 season and was great from 2010 on, but he was very basic every other year of his career, only hitting between .250 and .275 with a low OBP and about 20 something homers.
Those were “good” seasons, but not Hall-worthy seasons in my book. I guarantee there are guys out there with 500 homeruns in fewer seasons. Beltre hasn’t even gotten 500. 3000 hits, sure, but he played a lot of seasons.
To me, he’s in the Hall of Very Good. When his name comes up, I think of him as solid but nowhere near as perennially good as other Hall of Famers. He had a lot of “decent” seasons that everyone overlooks for his better days.
Schilling, like him or hate him, is number 20 all-time for strikeouts. It’s a crime he’s not in, even with his big mouth. It’s all political, and the Hall, in my book, has lost some credibility.
hiflew
Why do people think Fame and Very Good are on the same scale? They are not even similar in description.
Berischa
Obviously Ped’s helped Bonds to be a monster, but steroids can give you more power, energy, etc but can’t qive you talent and skills, he was already a great ballplayer before them, how many of hundred players used them and never came even close to his numbers? HOFamer or not, he was one of the very few best ball players ever, hitting, running, etc IMHO, also, where is Vizquel? If Ozzie Smith got there, he should also be there also, again IMHO
Informed Sportsball Discussion
Bonds could have stopped at 500 home runs and still been a Hall of Famer.
In fact, if I were the Hall, that’s exactly how I would handle it. Give him the plaque, but have it say 500 home runs.
I don’t think anyone alleges Bonds juiced for his entire career, so I don’t see why everything he did while not juicing gets thrown out because of what he did while allegedly juicing.
*shrug* It is what it is.
TrumboRedux
I would probably accept that.
hiflew
All the home runs he hit counted in official major league games. He was not suspended. None of the games he played in were ever vacated like the NCAA likes to do. Everything he did counts. If you don’t like it, well tough, get over it. I couldn’t stand Bonds as a player, but anyone thinking he is not among the greatest players of all time is just kidding themselves.
Informed Sportsball Discussion
@hiflew I said Bonds should be in the Hall of Fame, which by reasonable deduction means I agree he is one of the greatest players of all time. Your rant is misplaced.
hiflew
The rant was actually a reply to Berischa instead of you. No idea why it swapped spots.
Slow day at work
Just because Bonds isn’t in the HOF doesn’t mean people don’t think he isn’t among the greatest players. Being in the Hall is a reward he doesn’t deserve because he cheated. Plain and simple.
The other argument people always make is that other cheaters are already in, so we should just let all cheaters in. That’s a fallacy. The system isn’t perfect, that doesn’t mean it should be disregarded.
SimbaHOF2019
Viszquel Is not close to Ozzie Smith. Look up Jaws or WAR.
Atlanta Jack
Mark B
baseballteam
Todd Helton 58 points higher batting average at home and more than 80 HRs more at home. Fake HoF’er. How many pitchers that have played for the Rockies are in the Hall ?
JHoward1030
363 home runs and 2,500 hits is not a hall of fame first baseman end of story. Never won an MVP. The current HOF voting of the 5-6 years is just another example of society’s standards going down the tubes. Until this current generation of writers came in you had to have had a legit hall of fame career without using steroids. They made Andre Dawson wait 9 years after he was first eligible in 2002. Dawson had nearly 2,800 hits, 438 home runs, nearly 1,600 rbi, over 300 stolen bases, 8 gold gloves and won an mvp. That is a true hall of famer folks. Dawson should have been in on atleast year 2 of the ballot. Compare his career to hall of fame fraud Larry Walker and you will see what I’m talking about.
hiflew
First off, he SHOULD have won the MVP in 2000. So get off that subject altogether.
Second of all, I am tired of arguing about this. So I’ll just end with this thought.
“363 home runs and 2,500 hits is not a hall of fame first baseman”
IT IS NOW! Change your thought on the subject because you have no real voice on who is or is not a Hall of Famer. You can state your opinion, but it counts about as much as Monopoly money. Yeah it exists, but it’s not really worth anything at all.
JHoward1030
Another example of the standards of excellence being lowered. That is why this society is in the damn shape it’s in. Larry Walker, Todd Helton, Scott Rolen, Joe Mauer and possibly Tim Raines should all be recalled in order to debastardise the Hall. Of all the aforementioned Raines is the only one with a strong case and he may well deserve to be there but it’s very close. Compared to the others he’s a no brainer. For now on why don’t we save the time and trouble. If you made 5 all star teams you’re a Hall Of Famer.
hiflew
I’m sorry if Todd Helton’s election has destroyed your world, but I’m really not sorry at all.
kje76
You are a good 50+ years too late. If you think Walker, Helton, et al., are bastardizing the Hall, you obviously haven’t seen the cases of the New York Giants put in by the Veterans Committee of the 1970s – a couple of Giants putting in their old teammates.
filihok
bbt
“Todd Helton 58 points higher batting average at home and more than 80 HRs more at home. Fake HoF’er.”
Imagine knowing so,little about baseball and logic, that you think this is meaningful analysis
“How many pitchers that have played for the Rockies are in the Hall ?”
Zero?
So, what?
ayeah
I can understand some of your point with the home vs away stats. But if we take that into consideration.
Then we have to take that into account for every player whoever played in a home run hitting friendly park.
Which would mean any player who played on any of these teams and hit a lot of home runs during their career could not be HoF worthy either. Listed in order of HR friendly parks.
Rangers stadium – Oops! There goes Beltré.
Braves stadium
Red stadium
Dodgers stadium
Yankees stadium – Imagine all of those HoF’ers eliminated!
Angels stadium
Phillies stadium
Twins stadium
And now, finally on that list of the most friendly HR parks Rockies Coors field. The 9th ballpark on the list!!!
You are eliminating a LOT of other HoF players for a poor excuse to eliminate Helton because he played at a numbers skewed Coors Field.
DiMaggio hit almost more home runs on the road (213) than at home (148). Should we say he wasn’t deserving because his stats were skewed because of road games?
See how using a stadium’s stats can be misleading?
acoss13
Good on all three, all were certainly enjoyable to watch. Slight bias towards Todd Helton, loved watching him play. I won’t even look at the rest of the list, it’ll just infuriate me…
This one belongs to the Reds
Congrats to all three!
Sky14
All deserving.
ChiSox_Fan
Mark Buehrle to HOF in 2025!!
Rsox
Beltre is certainly deserving; The defensive accolades, 3000+ hits and almost 500 Home Runs. It’s the other tw9 I’m on the fence about. Perhaps rewarding each player for playing with only one team?
shosho
The way I see it, if I’m tasked with building the best roster possible, Mauer is on my short list. Maybe not quite a HOF career, but certainly a HOF player. Helton is more difficult, but I might disrespect first base a bit.
MWMet
The whole “one team” thing plays favorably for Wright, right? RIGHT? One can only delusionally hope.
hiflew
I think you should be impressed that he’ll make second ballot because I figured he would be one and done.
Bobcastelliniscat
The Maurer and Helton selections bode well for Joey Votto
exile
I think Votto was going to get into the Hall of Fame even if Helton never made the Hall of Fame.
ayeah
I can agree with you it “should” bode well for Votto.
But I believe Votto may have an uphill battle to be elected because of his coarse sense of humor personality. Personally, I love this about him!
But that personality doesn’t bode well with the writers and for that reason I could see him get shafted by the writers..don’t like your personality…so you’re not getting my vote. No matter how good you were or what your stats or career shows.
JHoward1030
A message to all you Larry Walker fanboys out there. If Walker is Hall Of Famer then why isn’t Dave Parker?
Walker: 2,160 hits, 383 homers, 1,311 rbi, 230 stolen bases, 7 gold gloves, one MVP.
Parker: 2,712 hits, 339 homers, 1,493 rbi, 154 stolen bases, 3 gold gloves, one MVP.
Neither are HOF they are both one tier below with Parker being the superior player. I typically hate when people play the race card but why are all these mediocre white players by HOF standards like Rolen, Walker and Helton in but guys while superior players like Parker and Carlos Beltran are not? And why did it take Andre Dawson nine years on the ballot to get in when he has nearly 3,000 hits and 500 homers to go along with over 300 stolen bases, 8 gold gloves(more than a few of them in center field) and a league MVP to his credit? When I look at these writers they are all a bunch of middle aged white men.
brooklyn62
I totally agree with your Dave Parker argument. Besides his stats, had a cannon for an arm which gets overlooked. Writers wouldn’t touch Parker because of the coke/greenies allegations of the 70s/80s Pirates. Glaring omission from the HOF,as well as Steve Garvey.
exile
Walker was better than Dave Parker. Before you bring up how Larry Walker played at Coors Field lets look at both players career road stats.
Walker in 3,478 AB – .278 AVG, 168 HR, .865 OPS, .495 SLG
Parker in 4,858 AB -, .278 AVG, 169 HR, .775 OPS, .447 SLG
brooklyn62
Walker is a legit HOFer. I hate the “played at Coors Field” argument. The fact is he delivered at the plate, doesn’t matter where he played.
JHoward1030
You think a guy with less than 400 homers and barely 2,000 hits is a HOFer? That opens the floodgates to all kinds of undeserving players who are Hall Of Very Good which Walker is a poster boy of.
brooklyn62
3 batting titles, 2 OBP titles,NL HR leader in 97. That’s a solid resume in comparison to many HOFers. As far as a poster boy for Hall of Very Good? Scott Rolen.
JHoward1030
I won’t disagree with you on Rolen. His presence in the Hall is a total bastardization of the once hallowed Hall Of Fame. He should be embarrassed to be called a Hall Of Famer.
JoeBrady
Walker is superior to many of his contemporaries. Just start with OPS+, which should eliminate park advantages.
Vlad G 140+
Raines 123
Griffey 136
Dawson 119
Gwynn 132
Sheffield 140
A. Jones 111
Walker 141
141 is excellent, and combined with his fielding, makes him automatic.
JoeBrady
JHoward103035 mins ago
A message to all you Larry Walker fanboys out there. If Walker is Hall Of Famer then why isn’t Dave Parker? When I look at these writers they are all a bunch of middle aged white men.
========================
Parker is not remotely close to Walker. Here are some bWAR/650 PAs for comparison purposes:
Walker 5.6
Reggie Smith 5.2
Andruw Jones 5.0
Dewey Evans 4.0
Parker 2.6
Not even remotely close.
JHoward1030
Save your nerd stats the HOF is reserved for guys who put up numbers that count.
JoeBrady
And who decides which stats count?
Walker’s OPS+ was 141.
Parker’s OPS+ was 121.
NOT close.
Walker was a much better fielder. Parker was good for a few seasons until he got out of shape, and then became a bad fielder.
Walker was a better baserunner. There was nothing that Parker was better at than Walker.
ayeah
No, it’s reserved for players who the writers liked as friends and treated the writers with kindness and respect.
It has absolutely nothing to do with stats, longevity or playing ability.
It all has to do with which players kissed the ground the writers walked on.
octavian8
Well, this tells me Joey Votto is a sure thing to enter the hall of fame.
JHoward1030
Vito’s HOF case is far less impressive than even Helton’s. You do know the HOF is reserved for the very best to ever play the game and not someone who was a perennial all-star in the era they played. Let’s put Darrell Evans in at this rate, he had over 400 homers.
hiflew
You are just a chore to deal with. Haven’t used the mute in a while, but I think it is appropriate here.
ayeah
“You do know the HOF is reserved for the very best to ever play the game and not someone who was a perennial all-star in the era they played.”
It is? You could have fooled me! The past few years have been more of a writers association popularity poll voting process. Than pure very best players to play the game elected votes.
Macbeth
Only Beltre should get it. Helton and Mauer no thanks.
filihok
MacB
“Only Beltre should get it. Helton and Mauer no thanks.”
I would agree
But, I also don’t really care
rowbradfo
Bartolo snub
kje76
I admit – I thought he’d survive one time around. I’m surprised AGonzalez and Reyes fell so flat. Middle of their careers, they were on the track.
astros_fan_84
I hate the HOF selection process. It’s as much a stain on the game as an cheating/steriod scandal.
its_happening
Thurman Munson should be in if Mauer is in, comparing both players to number of games caught. Both guys had careers shortened behind the plate for different reasons.
Wagner should have been in the year after Hoffman was inducted.
Beltre automatic HOF with 3000 hits.
Helton should do his induction speech from Coors Field where he had his only shot at Cooperstown. Not a Hall of Famer playing elsewhere.
rememberthecoop
No way Helton is a hall of famer if he didn’t play his entire career in Denver. His BA was 58 points lower on the road, and his power numbers were good but not hall of fame level outside of Colorado.
JHoward1030
A message to all Todd Helton Fanboys: If Todd Helton is such a bonafide HOFer why did it take him only 6 years on the ballot when Fred McGriff couldn’t get voted in by these idiot writers and in fact never even got 40 percent of the vote from these imbeciles.
Quick Career comparison:
Helton- 2,519 hits, 369 homers, 1,406 rbi, no MVP, no World Series Championship.
McGriff-2,490, hits 493 homers, 1,550 rbi, no MVP, one World Series Championship.
Like Dawson McGrifg should have been a second or third ballot HOFer yet he was on the ballot ten years and never even broke 40 percent. Why are all these inferior white players celebrated by these white bred writers and all these ultra deserving black and brown players with vastly superior numbers ignored. I think there is some serious racism in the HOF voting. Al and Jesse need to get on this!
rememberthecoop
I seriously hope you’re joking. Racism., really? Come on now, you’re smarter than that.
JHoward1030
Seriously, how is is that Fred McGriff with vastly superior numbers and post season accomplishments not even break 40 percent in 10 years and white bred Helton cruises in on his 6th vote with clearly inferior numbers. Neither won an MVP and McGriff played well in the postseason and won a World Series, something that can’t be said for Helton. When a man hits 493 home runs and he did it clean he’s atleast second or third ballot, especially when he is 10 hits shy of 2,500 with a solid 284 career batting average.
JoeBrady
Like Dawson McGrifg should have been a second or third ballot
=======================
McGriff isn’t half the player that Allen was.
Dawson wasn’t as good as Reggie Smith.
You are really overrating them.
JHoward1030
You’re a moron sit. Dawson had nearly 3,000 hits and 500 home runs. Anyone who achieves both is automatically one of the greatest players of all time. Dawson is on the doorstep of both and would have easily cleared those milestones if not for injury. Throw in stealing north of 300 bases, driving in nearly 1,600 runs and winning 8 gold gloves and that is one of the most impressive careers ever. It blows Joe Dimaggio’s career away. Reggie Smith barely cleared 2,000 hits barely cleared 300 homers. Are you some kind of boomer?
JoeBrady
Reggie had a better average, better OBP, better SLG and better OPS, better OPS, better K/W and better defender.
Dawson is only in the conversation because he played in the live-ball era, compared to Reggie’s time in the dead-ball era, and because Dawson had 42% more ABs.
Reggie’s WAR/650 was 5.2.
Dawson’s WAR/650 was 3.9.
It isn’t that close.
WhoNoze
“Al & Jesse”? Really? Two the most disgusting race-hustlers in history? If there are “donations”(aka extortion) $$ available, I’m sure they would already be on the case.
filihok
JHow
“Quick Career comparison:
Helton- 2,519 hits, 369 homers, 1,406 rbi, no MVP, no World Series Championship.
McGriff-2,490, hits 493 homers, 1,550 rbi, no MVP, one World Series Championship.”
Nothing you’ve posted indicates that you understand player evaluation
So, I’m not going to waste time trying to answer your question
I’d recommend you look at wRC+ and not things like RBi
WAR would be better than HR
For starters
sufferforsnakes
Mauer? What a f’n joke. Still waiting for Omar Vizquel to get in. He deserves it waaaaay more than Mauer.
Shawnpe
Sheff should be in. Thats baffling. Ticked off enough writers I guess.
BPax
Saw Beltre play lots of times. His glove was awesome. Well deserved HOFer,
Quinnap89
Mauer a 1st ballot HOF? I’m sorry but come on. He was a great player absolutely. But let me throw something out there. Almost similar stats is another catcher in Jason Kendall. He will never get in the Hall but PO% and hits are very close. They are very closely similar players. Mauer is a product of a guy well liked and was good for a period of time. His stats no way are HOF worthy. He didn’t even have 1000 RBI’s. The Hall is opening up a can of worms now. Guys that are well liked will start to get in. Forget the stats!
JHoward1030
Total bastardization of the once great and super exclusive HOF. It started about 15 years ago when they put Jim Rice. It took another 10 years to get Walker in and then last year Scott Rolen. Having all these undeserving players makes me not even want to visit Cooperstown anymore.
Non Roster Invitee
Rafael Palmiero GG while starting 28 games at first in ’99. Throw gold gloves out of the equation.
padam
I bet he was golden in those 28 games though.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Jeter
88 Brooklyn Dodgers
Wonder if the money-obsessed (‘shocker’) commissioner will be at the induction ceremony.
bighiggy
How does sheffield not get in? His career numbers are video gameish. Guy has 300 more career walks than strikeouts. Was he ever rumored to be juicing? I honestly can’t remember.
JHoward1030
Yes, otherwise he would be first ballot with his 509 home runs and close to 3,000 hit total but his numbers were inflated by drugs like Palmeiro, Sosa, ARoid and many others and therefore shouldn’t have even been on the ballot anymore and now he isn’t.
ramon garciaparra
Wagner had a 27 WAR and played in 900 innings in his career, the equivalent of 100 games. I can understand an elite guy like Mariano Rivera who also made an impact in the post season but closers in general really don’t belong in the Hall of Fame.
padam
Not sure I’m buying Mauer on a first ballot, nonetheless in the HOF when looking at some others that aren’t. Sheffield on stats alone should be in (I’m sure his edgy persona has much to do with not getting in, but at the end of the day he put up numbers that qualify). And Wagner needs to get in as well. He was still rocking, even his last year. Sure, he had some rough patches with the HR ball, but made up for it in his overall book of work. Those two need to be in more so than Mauer in my opinion.
martras
Whhhhaaaaaaa whaaaaaaa so-and-so didn’t get in but Mauer did!
TrumboRedux
Mauer got in 1st ballot people…His HOF “worthiness” is hardly debatable. It’s in the books…I would like to hear now why 100% of the voters will not select ICHIRO next year..?? Even though he might be the best to ever play the game!!
Unclenolanrules
Wagner has more strikeouts than Mariano Rivera in 3 fewer seasons. Wagner’s lifetime ERA is 2.31. Rivera, 2.21.
If they named the mfkn trophy for relief pitchers after a guy with a 2.21 ERA over 19 seasons, then a guy like Wagner should have been in early on in his years of eligibility.
The whole HOF selection process is stupid anyway. They need to overhaul all of it. Don’t ask me how.
Fg-3
Joe Mauer…. Don Mattingly. Same player same stats. And he gets in on first ballot. Posada has never sniffed the Hall. What is happening here???? Yes I’m a Yankees fan. But Joe Mauer???? Next to Bench and Pudge?? And Fisk?? It’s actually a disgrace.
I’m sure he’s a nice guy. So congratulations
Yankeesforever
I dont know, the HOF should equate to must see status when a player was active.
You know, “let’s go to the game because so and so is coming to town” or
“let’s head home early and beat the traffic”…..”ogh let’s hang around one more inning, Ohtani or Judge is coming up” or
“honey let’s go we are going to be late”…”one second I just want to watch so and so’s at bat”
How many people here with who get to the hall a half hour before closing would say we need to make sure we get to the wing housing these guys?
Stats are important of course, but there needs to be a generational quality to it.
Beff Jagwell
Wow, Mauer getting in at all is a joke, but first ballot???
Bill Bertolotti
I am shocked that Matt Holliday received only 1% and fell off the ballot.
GarryHarris
Billy Wagner and Curt Schilling are in my MLB HOF and so is Lou Whitaker.
Saint Nick
Mauer gets in but Andruw doesn’t smh
Salzilla
Congrats to all.
WhoNoze
HOF is nothing more than membership based on opinions, mostly from people who have little interest in the game other than a source of income. They key-in their columns and go home to the wife (or husband) and kids or off to the bar. Baseball is a job, a second or third choice to what they thought would be a yearly Pulitzer. Baseball needs a REAL HOF with members chosen by those who play and coach the game, void of socio-political correctness. I have no concern about a player’s private life; what they do there is not reflective of the game unless they engage in nefarious activities as part of the game, and it’s absurd to claim otherwise.
martras
Joe Mauer will be the greatest catcher not tainted by PEDs to play the game for 40 years through at least 2030 as there are no active catchers even close.
Peak 7 Years
1. Gary Carter 48.4 bWAR
2. Johnny Bench 47.2 bWAR
3 Mike Piazza* 43.1 bWAR
4 Ivan Rodriguez* 39.8 bWAR
5 JOE MAUER 39.0 bWAR
*Admitted PED user or strongly linked to PEDs
Tossing the PED users out, in his prime, Joe Mauer is the 3rd greatest catcher in MLB history. He was the greatest catcher of his era, and for a short stint, arguably the greatest player in MLB. That’s why he’s a first ballot Hall of Famer. I’ll admit I’m surprised BWAA felt this way because the career WAR is on the edge. Only 1 in 5 Hall of Famers get elected on their first ballot so that should say everything people need to know about Mauer’s case.
Thurmon Munson? 20% less career bWAR than Mauer. Lower peak. His career was about to be ended by natural decline before the plane crash. His career was already basically over, but Yankees fans……
Buster Posey? 20% less career bWAR than Mauer. Lower peak. I think Posey could have played a few more years and maybe added another 9ish WAR. Still would have been less than Mauer.
Yadier Molina? 25% less career bWAR than Mauer. Below average career hitter. A long career, average bat, defense first catcher. Ranks in the 20-25 range among catchers, historically.
JoeBrady
Thurmon Munson? 20% less career bWAR than Mauer. Lower peak. His career was about to be ended by natural decline before the plane crash.
==========================
1-Munson’s hitting at age 31/32 was abut the same as Mauer’s, so you have no idea of whether or not Munson couldn’t have taken the same track as Mauer.
2-Mauer’s bWAR thru age 32 was 47.6 against Munson’s 46.1.
3-Mauer only caught 885 games, while Munson caught 1,263.
4-Mauer’s 7 nest consecutive seasons yielded a 34.9 bWAR. Munson’s best 7 yielded a 35.2.
As a RS, who didn’t even like Munson, I’d say he was every bit as good as Mauer.
deGrom/Langford Texas Ranger
Did over 100 comments disappear?
OhioDodger
Not resigning Beltre was one of the biggest mistakes in Dodger history.
debubba
Beltre got in while being suspended for roids during his career. It’s time to let McGwire, arod, Sosa, Canseco, Clemens , bonds and palmiero in. It’s a museum of baseball, not a museum of ethics. cheating has been in baseball for a long time.
baseballteam
It’s supposed to stand for what is best about the sport, not sleaze bag cheaters.
AngelsFan1972
I don’t argue with people who take the “no roids route” because I do understand their argument. But I would like to point out the every era of baseball has players who looked to gain a competitive advantage by bending the rules. Examples are the spit ball, corked bats, greenies or speed, adoral, trash can bangers, video surveillance…..and on on and on and on
Ruth was not exactly a poster boys for ethics. Cobb was despicable as well. There are many more in the era that are of the same ilk.
I do defend McGwire because technically he didn’t cheat, he played within the rules, before the rules were laid out. I feel he saved baseball, for that alone he is a HOFer.
No Salary Cap For You! (Come Back One Year)
Mauer first ballot, yet Dale murphy still waits…
Viveleempireevil
If Mauer is in, then Don Mattingly should go in.
AngelsFan1972
If Mauer is in, then Don Mattingly should go in…..
and Steve Garvey
ayeah
This great news to hear for Helton and Maurer.
Sad to hear Billy Wagner fell short. But hopefully should be able to make it in next year. If not, the baseball writers clique of be a goody two shoes nice player and to them or get blacklisted from the Hall of Fame still rules.
(i.e., Dick Allen)
The surprise here is…Are the baseball writers getting soft on their players steroids stance? Beltre in on the first year? And on a 95.1% vote! I consider Beltre a potential HoF player. But I also had a lot of suspicion on him being a steroid player. Even more so playing during that era and keeping his stats up with those known steroid players. There has to be some doubt to not have him be elected in his first year and with a 95.1% vote.
Baseball is sinking lower in my respect for the game.
This is hypocritical right there with we will ban Pete Rose for betting on baseball. But then partner with and advertise all the sports betting sites and apps during pre-game, post games and during games non-stop!
So, MLB is 100% against players for betting on their games. But want everyone else to bet on their games, stats and players.
MLB is against steroid use and that era. But will now vote a player from that era, with potential suspicion, in on a first time ballot with that high of a vote.
Baseball is becoming a very sad sport.