Cardinals chairman Bill DeWitt Jr. spoke with reporters on Monday afternoon to conclude the organization’s Winter Warm-Up weekend. Unsurprisingly, he touched on the team’s biggest offseason storyline: the Nolan Arenado trade discussions.
Most notably, DeWitt said that the team wasn’t motivated to cut payroll in another area if they can’t line up an Arenado deal. “No, I don’t think so,” he replied when asked if a failure to trade the third baseman meant they needed to slash spending elsewhere (link via Katie Woo of The Athletic). President of baseball operations John Mozeliak made similar comments over the weekend, suggesting that ownership was supporting a higher payroll than the front office initially expected “because we haven’t been able to accomplish what we thought we would by now (on the trade market).”
Much of that is due to the no-trade rights of the Cards’ most expensive players. Willson Contreras and Sonny Gray each indicated they preferred to stay in St. Louis rather than waive their no-trade clauses. Arenado was more open to a trade in theory, though he nixed a deal to the Astros. That confirmed he’d be particular about his next destination if he were to move.
The Cardinals are on the hook for $64MM of the $74MM owed to Arenado over the next three seasons. The Rockies are responsible for $5MM annually over the next two years. A combined $12MM in salary over the next two seasons is deferred, reducing the Cardinals’ portion of the contract’s remaining net present value to around $60MM.
St. Louis has primarily focused on salary relief. The Astros were reportedly set to assume at least $45MM of the remaining money had Arenado not vetoed the trade. With Houston quickly moving on, talks have quieted over the past month. Mozeliak made clear over the weekend that the Cardinals are still trying to line up a trade that makes sense for everyone involved. That has been more challenging than the organization anticipated.
Nevertheless, there’s still a chance for a late-offseason deal. Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch writes that there are multiple teams that would be open to circling back on Arenado if the Cardinals are open to paying down a bigger portion of the contract. It remains to be seen whether St. Louis will eventually be willing to do that, but they’re generally downplaying the need to make trades to cut spending at this point. There’s also the matter of free agency delaying the trade market. Alex Bregman remains unsigned and there’s surely some overlap between the teams involved on the two players.
Goold adds that some teams have called the Cardinals to see whether they can talk Gray off his opposition to waiving the no-trade clause. There’s nothing to suggest the righty is reconsidering that stance, though there’s no harm for other teams in trying to change his mind. Gray is owed $65MM over the next two seasons on his backloaded three-year free agent deal. He turned in a 3.84 ERA over 28 starts during his first season with St. Louis.
Fleet Admiral Ackbar says, “It’s a re-build”
The Cardinals should just keep Arenado. He is still a fine player, just not a #3 in the lineup hitter anymore. Move him to 7th in the batting order, and then his offensive stats lineup better plus he will provide above average defense at 3rd base.
You’re right. The money isn’t that bad and Arenado still offers value. If we are stuck with him, just stop batting him 3rd or 4th. He is no longer that hitter. Marmol will prob do that anyway since he bows to the vets.
DeWitt is a billionaire. Of course he doesn’t have to cut payroll, he is choosing to. Maybe he is just tired of Arenado sulking and wants him gone. I still think he will be traded to a team that misses out on Bregman. Either way, there is no justification for not making any other moves while this plays out. They have the money to do more, a lot more. May be a long season unless Gorman and Walker surprise us all and figure things out.
For whatever reason this sounds more like a save face quote in that the returns aren’t what they hoped for. Why a team rep would announce certain things unless misdirection is a question I’ve often asked myself. I know when I negotiate professionally, I don’t spill my hand as it gives the other side leverage.
Do you really think a team is going to offer the Cardinals less just because they publicly said they were shopping him?
Either someone wants him or they don’t. And if that team wants him he has to say yes. It’s not about leverage because the team doesn’t have to trade him and frankly I don’t think they even want to.
BITA, when someone publicly says they want to reduce payroll, yes I do think they get at least at first lower offers to see how bad they want to get rid of a contract. I negotiate sometimes very large construction accidents and typically use a mediator to funnel back and forth discussions. Instead of just making a counteroffer, I’ll ask the neutral what he or she recommends. They’re privy to discussions with the other side and sometimes their suggestion is less than what I was going to offer. I can always counter with less than the mediator’s suggestion but once the higher amount is put out there, it affects all future negotiations.
Dewey – You are 100% correct. When announcements like this are made publicly, there’s ulterior motives behind it. They don’t want to appear desperate to shed payroll because if they do they are giving leverage to other teams. Common sense here.
The Astros’ offer probably showed the max that any other team wanted him, and the Cards missed a golden opportunity to move him because he was being too picky.
With the NT clause, it is his right, of course. But he really screwed his team (and himself, IMO) by saying, “um, not right now.”
Unless he starts 2025 hot and then gets moved prior to the deadline, I don’t see any team paying $45 million of that deal like the Astros offered.
Bob – Exactly! It’s quite clear trading Arenado is a far bigger priority to the Cards than it is to Arenado.
I think the notion a billionaire has liquid personal capital around really needs to be dealt with as myth. The Cardinals operate as their own business entity. We’re absolutely blessed as various team fans when a billionaire owner decides to float personal cash to win. Detroit owes Illitch a deep debt of gratitude for all his trying to win one for the city….didn’t happen. But he spent $ well beyond what the budget would have indicated.
Unless the new hitting coaches can change Gorman into a contact hitter instead of a 200 per year strikeout man —- I’d say we move on from him to Saggesse (sp).
Walker hit .275 his first year as a line drive, contact hitter, and regressed to nothing last season when his coaches decided Launch angle was more important than contact hitting for him. (Very Poor Advice!!).
Moving him to 7th means that you have six better hitters. I don’t see that on the Cardinals.
Everybody can’t bat 7th
@rm, agree. Probably more likely to be a two-hole hitter, or a five-hole hitter, with 5-hole making the most sense IMHO.
Probably correct. One could make the case that Herrera could move into the 5 hole but I would give it a month or so with Arenado there. Witt, Donovan, Contreras, Burleson, Arenado, Nootbar, Herrera, Walker/Gorman (DH), Siani. That line-up should score runs, unlike 2024, which I think was a bit of an outlier. They still need some bullpen help unless they think Hence and Mathews could fill in.
Yes, not 3rd, but surely higher than 7th. Against righties, the Cardinals should place a combination of Winn, Contreras, Burleson, and maybe Donovan and/or Nootbaar ahead of him, but that’s it. Against lefties, he should probably bat either 2nd or 4th (assuming Contreras is 3rd), unless Walker shows a big improvement with the bat.
They sure as hell don’t have 6 hitters better than him.
That’s DeWitt Jr. doing the positive talking.
If it was DeWitt III talking, … it’ll be just the opposite!!
I sincerely believe —— the fall of the Cardinals has slowing progressed on a parallel line with DeWitt Jr. gradually passing off more and more responsibility to DeWitt III.
Bill DeWitt III is way too conservative as compared to Bill DeWitt Jr.
This is when losers meet baseball chat rooms lol
Cardinals front office has gone back and forth on so many things. Contreras moving off C, buying at the deadline and taking on more $, insinuating a large payroll reducing, now little to no payroll reduction is good enough. My prediction is we will be buyers next month and sign Bregman and Alonso
Wishful thinking. Not gonna happen. You sent your slugging first baseman away that would have played for 1/2 of what Pete wants. They aren’t clearing out Nolan to pay Bregman double either.
That slugging 1st baseman couldn’t hit a fastball last season. He is fine being allowed to walk.
Not counting that thing that only lasted a week last spring, Contreras moving off catcher is a new development.
They bought at last year’s deadline, because they were still in contention at that point. ultimately, they fell out of the race and decided they needed to move in a new direction this offseason.
They HAVE already cut a bunch of payroll just with all the free agents they let walk, so yes, it is good enough. They never said until now exactly how much they needed to cut.
DeWitt in essence saying we have no one else to trade that would save us on payroll so we are going with a larger payroll than we expected. We suck at getting trades done so we will just have to suck it up for a year.
It’s simply untrue to state the Cardinals don’t have anyone else to trade to save on payroll.
There’s no single player that would save as much as Arenado, but Helsley ($8.2 million in 2025) and Fedde ($7.5 million) both have positive trade value.
Matz is making $12.5 million in 2025. That’s underwater, but I think another team would take on some of that (maybe $5 million?) in a pure salary dump by the Cardinals.
So that adds up to ~$20 million in 2025 payroll, and all 3 of those players are FA’s after 2025.
The team appears to be pursuing a middle-ground of neither a big teardown, nor making any significant outside additions. I have my doubts that’s a wise strategy, but it seems to be their plan.
You are correct about Fedde. Helsley does have trade value, but Mo has said the Cardinals are not trading him. Matz has so much negative trade value that they could not save money by trading him. They would have to attach a prospect to get rid of him.
That adds up to $7.5 million. Not enough to bother. Just run it back and see if they can win a weak Central.
That is what Chaim Bloom did in Boston. Results speak for themselves.
I agree they’re they’re a middle of the pack team now, but I wonder how underwhelming trade conversations around Fedde and Helsley have been for them to decide on this path. They can probably get more for both of those guys at the deadline, I would probably take the risk and do the same thing if I was them
“We suck at getting trades done”….you have veteran players who WANTED to play in St Louis, because they always have wanted to. Gray would have probably loved to have been a LIFETIME Cardinal. Guy has a no trade clause and loves the org and region. He’s not waiving that a year in
They don’t have to suck it up for a whole year. They can keep him to start the season and hope he puts up better numbers. Then look to move him near the halfway mark.
With another half year off the books the contract becomes less onerous. Look forward to seeing him wear the birds on the bat again.
If a player with an NTC refuses to allow the trade, it means the GM sucks at his job of convincing them to take the trade. If they won’t go now, why would they move in the middle of the season? Because the team sucks more?
The GM also showed he sucks by not figuring out a way to move contracts like Matz and refusing to even try to trade Helsley on a team that will be lucky to win 85 games.
Unfortunately, that’s exactly what I’m afraid of. By having Mozeliak remain as the Cardinals as the President of baseball in their front office, if the Cardinals surprise everyone and are in contendining position at the All-Star break or Trading Deadline —- you can bet —- John Mozeliak won’t be trading to try to make the team better!!!!
With Mozeliak still employed —- he will be trying to dump the Cardinals best and highest priced players still on their roster at the trading deadline!!
Of course we know he’s banking on dumping Arenado, Matz, Fedde, Mikolas, and Gray if possible before he leaves.
My fear is he’ll also let good players like Donavan, go too…… but keep questionable 200 strikeouts per season player like Gorman and pitchers like Libertore hang around.
What do you all think???
Why they take on the contract if they couldn’t afford it? Everyone else in the league knew his numbers were inflated from playing at coors
They have been so hard to watch for the last couple years. Looks like a lot of the same for this year.
Don’t act like a spoiled brat. A winning team isn’t hard to watch at all. Fans didn’t find it hard to watch when the team missed the playoffs 3 years in a row from 2016-2018 yet still had a winning record each year.
That’s because they are a loyal fan base. But, the FO keeps trying to pass off the same fib over and over and the fans are tired of it. They have more than once refused to get a few player at the deadline that would push them over into playoffs/deep run, but instead allow the team to falter.
They fired the good manager and kept the yes man who can’t manage himself out of a paper bag. Veterans may like Marmol, but you think the guy who couldn’t get out of A ball and publicly goes after a player gets respect from the veterans? Team will never improve until the FO and Marmol are gone.
They generally DO add rather well at the trade deadline. They got Lester and Happ in 2021 to push them into the playoffs, then the same with Montgomery and Quintana in 2022. Either year, they could’ve easily had a better playoff run if a few things had gone differently.
While they didn’t get into the playoffs last year, it wasn’t the fault of the trade deadline additions, Fedde and Pham.
Schildt may have been better, but Marmol is still a decent manager at worst who overall has a winning record at the helm over his three years to date. No manager could’ve salvaged the 2023 team after most of the pitching unexpectedly blew up.
They can keep the team as is. That’s not really much of a revelation. They just shouldn’t do that if no other holes are going to be patched up.
Holding Fedde in particular makes no sense to me. Why risk injury or performance decline on him?
Fedde wasn’t all that good for the Cardinals in 2024. What the heck do you think he’s worth?
People keep talking about making these trades but for what? What prospects are the team missing out on?
He’s a bargain at his salary.
They’ll get nothing at the deadline for him if he’s hurt or regresses. You talk about all these Cardinals pitchers that you want to see start—-there’s a rotation spot opened up. Fedde will get an actual prospect back today.
Matz/Mikolas’ will not be able to be dumped off without attaching something of value.
The increase of playoff odds is worth the chances of Fedde declining or getting hurt. The same goes for Helsley.
Mikolas, agreed, but Matz has some trade value as long as they eat part of his salary.
What playoff odds? Currently the Cardinals are expected to finish last in the Central with an O/U of 76.5 wins. That is with a healthy Fedde.
He’s probably a 3.20-3.30 ERA starter. That’s worth quite a bit, especially at his relatively low salary. His ERA with the Cards after that first rough start was 3.19, so he certainly showed when he settled in after that start. He’s not a superstar, but a quality 2-3 guy at a low salary is worth a lot.
If cutting payroll was such a priority then why has the team traded ZERO PLAYERS? And why would they be trying so hard to trade a guy with a NTC?
Arenado wants out. That is a fact. Whats not a fact is the team wants him out.
BITA
Who can they deal? Sonny Gray probably gave them a better deal than he’d have given elsewhere and has a full no trade. Super family oriented guy who always had a desire to be a Cardinal.
Players love playing for St. Louis.
Yeah Gray signed at a discounted although the deal is backloaded. Matz is the guy to trade sure the team would have to eat some salary but not all of it.
Not a lot of real value though in Matz. Someone has to throw innings in StL. They aren’t tanking. That’ll never fly.
Get Chaim Bloom rolling…let him work the development system. It’ll be a few mediocre seasons.
McGreevy can jump right into the rotation. They could give Liberatore a chance. It would not be difficult to replace whatever Matz would hopefully produce. And that would save the team money if that’s really their goal.
But here we are and nobody has been traded. Not 1 single player…..
My theory is if you’re not going to be GOOD…be INTERESTING. The Cardinals are boring. It’s just true. This is a boring baseball team right now.
If they do trade Arenado i want them to also trade Matz too. Then sign Scherzer and Moncada.
Scherzer would be interesting. Fans would show up to watch him pitch for the Cardinals.
But who and for what? I don’t like the (reset) but it is what it is. At least til the All-Star break give many one last chance. Gorman, Walker, Herrera, McGreevy, Libertore, Arenado, and others all have question marks. Even Nootbar and Siani or Scott. If they fail then it is time to move on, but at least they will be given a full opportunity.
Give it up! The Cardinals have no interest in signing any free agent starters, even if they trade one of their existing starters. They certainly wouldn’t go after someone as expensive as Scherzer would be. It would’ve been quite a bit cheaper just to pick up Gibson’s option.
Agreed on McGreevy and the possibility of trading Matz.
However, if he actually stays healthy, Matz would easily outproduce Liberatore. They’ll give someone like Rom or Graceffo the opportunity instead if Matz gets hurt again or gets traded.
Scherzer could help pay for his salary with increased ticket sales. This is a player a LOT of Cardinals fans want to see pitch for their team. And they can still trade him at the deadline if he’s pitching well and the team isn’t playing well.
Rom is a complete unknown. Graceffo could get some opportunities especially if he gets off to a good start at Memphis. Same with Robberse. But Liberste deserves a shot too.
I doubt anyone has come calling for Matz except to say, if you eat almost all his salary, we’ll take him off your hands. That doesn’t help.
Because even with Gray’s raise they already dumped enough payroll just by letting Goldschmidt, Gibson, Lynn, Kittredge, and Carpenter walk in free agency, while they’re still trying to compete on a lower payroll with the guys they still have, save for maybe Arenado. It’s not that hard to understand
That is a false fact. Arenado is just open to leaving. If he really wanted out, he wouldn’t be so stingy with his no trade rights.
Being stingy is often a negotiating tactic. Putting the most likely teams you’d be traded to as blocks. But in this case I think you’re right. Players love playing in St Louis. Usually competing…but right now probably not for a few seasons.
If it wasn’t Arenado who asked for a trade earlier in the offseason then who was it???
And if Arenado didn’t ask for a trade why is it so important for Mozeliak to trade him???
He wants out but he wants to go to a legit contender. The Astros traded away Tucker they aren’t legit their window is closing. He wants to go to a team who is clearly better than the Cardinals. Dodgers, Yankees and Mets all fit that criteria.
I’ve seen this in real time and I can give you how the convo goes…
GM: Nolan, I just dont see us having a competitive season. We need to start revamping the organization. We love you here in StL. And we know you love it too. Youre a winner. Would you be amenable to a deal to a team that might give you a better shot in the near term?
Nolan: I love playing here in StL. My family loves it. I’d really like to stay, but of the right deal comes…yeah I’d consider it.
Now…not saying THIS occured. But a lot of front offices and players aren’t as at eachothers throats as the media portrays.
That’s not how it went Elvis. Arenado came to the team and asked to be traded. He said he wants to play for a winner. The team said they will do their best to accommodate him.
….so I’m perplexed why there’s really discussion. BUT that’s a pretty dang good organization to have solid communication. I’m not worried about the Cardinals. They won’t be down too long.
Oh yeah, Gallegos’s salary is no longer on the books, either.
If Arenado does get traded i think the favorites are the Mets and the Red Sox in that order. The Red Sox would be a little complicating because they would have to move Yoshida in a separate deal and they would have to move Devers to 1b. The Mets i think will sign Bregman or Alonso or trade for Arenado. And it sounds like they have moved on from Alonso. The Mets also have a right handed hitting center fielder to trade which the Cardinals need and that could convince the Cardinals to pay down the salary.
Net present value. Oh Yeah !
Sounds like a Schoolhouse Rock cartoon followed by a Kool Aid commercial.
You signed Willson and Sonny to no trade contracts, so live with them.
Gladly! They’re still two of the team’s best players who are worth what they’re being paid.
Cut the front office. Hold tryouts for GM.
If i remember correctly, he was supposedly willing to go to the angels. They are less of a contender than houston but in a preferred geographic location. His contract isnt too bad, so id trade a couple depth type prospects for him if i were the angels.
Mo is so terrible at his job. For those blaming DeWallet — and often im in that group. The reality is the Cardinals payroll has been in the 150-185 range.
Those salary ranges SHOULD put your team into more than just contention. But it won’t if you keep making poor decisions, which comes down to Mo.
You signed a catcher who, despite almost common knowledge in the industry, wasn’t much of a catcher. To the largest FA contract the team has ever had.
You’ve traded away far more WAR than you’ve received back in trades.
You’ve failed in your developmental programs — especially since COVID — to the point where organizationally, this team is unrecognizable.
To me, most of that’s on Mo. You can blame DeWallet for giving Mo and Oli to long of leash. But they’ve hung themselves with it at this point.
This team is a rudderless ship which is why the fanbase has turned on it. It’s not payroll causing that.
It’s time for Mo to go. And he’s going. But he’s also a guy who succeeded a long, long time. So long an entire generation is reacting to the Cardinals losing…becsuse they’ve won their ENTIRE life. This team didn’t make the playoffs from 68-82 I dont believe. But, man, it’s been pretty good sailing since about ’98.
Not always. Winning baseball is about more than just payroll. They’ve just had one really bad year followed by a still decent year with a winning record after making the playoffs 4 years in a row.
Signing Contreras was and still is a good deal despite his overblown defensive issues, even as a 1B/DH.
That is absolutely false! Look at Mozeliak’s entire history of trades and you’ll find that he’s overall done an excellent job. Even in more recent recent years, he’s pulled off good or better trades for Goldschmidt, Arenado, Gallegos, Romero, Lester, Happ, Montgomery, Quintana, Kittredge, and Fedde to greatly more than make up for the occasional duds like the Ozuna and Liberatore trades.
It hasn’t been THAT bad, but that’s why they’re now trying to fix the problem.
Much of what you said is true, but it’s that recent history of the terrible Ozuna trade, the bust of a Liberatore trade, the odd early decision to give up on Garcia and get nothing for him, the decision that Lane Thomas was the most expendable OF you had in the stable, the timing and cost/length of contract on Fowler, the terrible timing and terrible decisions on expensive contract extensions for guys like Carpenter and Mikolas, the swing and a miss on Matz, the decision to relive old glory days with last year’s roster, and some still unsettling moves on several reclamation project pitchers that cost way too much money at way too high of risk that have fans calling for Mo’s job. He has absolutely made some good moves, but that long list is what fans are more focused on at this point.
Someday front offices will realize that overpaying for an older player will only crunch your financial limitations later. Arenado was a bad contract and they added to it with Sonny Gray. $30 mil for the next 2 years? Ouch.
Those are our most productive 2 players.
Mason Wynn?
He certainly regressed as the season went on. We can only hope he makes the adjustments he needs to quickly. All the talent is there, but that falloff was troubling.
15M a season for Sonny Gray is a steal. I’ll take him. Dodgers are paying relievers that.
It was the Rockies who gave Arenado that huge contract, and they had to eat a whole bunch of it to trade him to the Cardinals. So far, Arenado has provided decent value for what the Cardinals are paying, and his salary goes down over the last two years of the deal to where the Cardinals (or an acquiring team) only owe him $10M in 2027.
Gray is still a great pitcher, so there’s nothing wrong with his contract.
Deep dark horse for Arenado? I’ll take Kansas City.
I don’t want to hear the Cardinals complain in 2025 about fan support with this horrible team..
Then it’s a good thing they still have a decent team.
Worst thing the Cardinals can do is placate fans to produce an avg product. Stl fans are probably the smartest in baseball. They want stuff done right and they want to win the Cardinals way. So do it. Even if it costs a couple seasons. A two year blip on the way to regearing a wonderful franchise with great fans is nothing.
Win and they’ll be alright
Franco, grammar.
The team already cut 20% of the payroll without adding any new players. “Rebuilt!”
I only came here to observe the interaction between BITA and the rational posters.
Would St.Louis do a swap Arenado for Bohm & a prospect. Then maybe they put Hesley in the deal as well
Why would they want Bohm? Part of the reason for trading Arenado is that they already have in-house players to take over at 3B, and Arenado is still a much better player than Bohm, anyway.
Why in the world would Helsley ever be included?! Helsley alone is worth more than Bohm and a prospect.
I had a dream last night that Nado ended up on the Dodgers,
When did the Cardinals become the Marlins/Pirates/Twins?
He should sell the team.
SELL THE TEAM
Let’s be honest. Keeping Arenado won’t do any dent in the damage Mo has done. I say keep him, see what happens. Watch Mo walk after the season and see what the direction really is. This is currently baseball purgatory and Mo is trying to make Arenado look like some bad guy. Remember – Arenado could have opted out and signed a longer and more lucrative contract per year
Time for the Dewitt’s to sell this team. This line of BS is what will drive away more fans.
Bills best case regarding a financials reset is moving Nado in trade. He’s not forcing it. If a deal falls in his lap tomorrow, Nolan is gone.
STL is standing pat until their next opportunity to sell. They are sellers now, at the deadline and will be next offseason when up 45mil of FA’s-to-be will be off the 2026 books or traded prior. Full sell mode, don’t let them fool ya.
We have youth that needs playing time to sink or swim, and a handful of first rounders that need to step forward, but, why force it. Nolan staying is not a worst case.
I don’t think the Dewitts have any idea how much they are disintegrating their fanbase. Or they just don’t care. Not to have Chaim Bloom at winter warm-up either shows their arrogance (yet again) or their stupidity. Either way, the DeWitts should sell. Their model and outlook is ancient, outdated and doesn’t reflect where the game is, business-wise.