The Orioles remade their rotation in the offseason, but to the extent hoped for by Baltimore fans. Corbin Burnes departed in free agency, netting a compensatory draft pick, but the front office opted to go with a series of older veterans on one-year deals to round out the staff. Charlie Morton signed for $15MM. Longtime NPB ace Tomoyuki Sugano landed a $13MM guarantee. Old friend Kyle Gibson signed late, inking a $5MM deal in late March. It was a big bet on in-house arms taking a step forward and on some older free agents fending off Father Time for another season.
That bet hasn’t paid off.
Baltimore starters have the worst earned run average in the majors, checking in at 6.11. Their combined 15.4% strikeout rate is also last in the majors, as is their 7.9% swinging-strike rate. No team’s rotation has allowed home runs at a higher rate than the Orioles’ 1.86 HR/9, and only two have yielded higher marks in terms of average exit velocity and hard-hit rate.
Sugano and Zach Eflin are the only two Orioles starters with an ERA under 6.00. Sugano’s 9.2% strikeout rate is the third-lowest among all starters with at least 10 innings, leading only Antonio Senzatela and Randy Vasquez. Eflin, at an uncharacteristic 11.8%, has the sixth-worst strikeout rate in that same set. He’s also on the injured list due to a mild lat strain. Grayson Rodriguez, the team’s best young starter, is currently out with a shoulder injury for which he recently sought a second opinion.
Currently, the O’s are trotting out a quartet of Sugano, Morton, Dean Kremer and Cade Povich. Morton, 41, has struggled more than any pitcher in baseball, yielding a 10.89 ERA with five homers in his 20 2/3 innings. Manager Brandon Hyde was asked about Morton today and wouldn’t commit to the veteran keeping his rotation spot. “I think anything’s on the table at this point, Hyde said, per Jake Rill of MLB.com. “We’re going to get through this series and then kind of see where we are.” Kremer, sitting on a 6.41 ERA, has also served up five homers in just 19 2/3 innings. Povich has been tagged for four homers in 18 1/3 innings and seen more than half of his opponents’ batted balls leave the bat with an exit velocity of at least 95 mph.
The Orioles drew plenty of criticism for their cautious offseason. They reportedly offered Burnes a four-year deal to stay, one that’s said to have come with a $45MM annual value, but a four-year term for a 30-year-old former Cy Young winner in free agency never seemed like it’d get the job done. The team seemed to place a heavy emphasis on sustaining long-term flexibility, which has been a theme under GM Mike Elias as he navigated his club’s lengthy rebuild.
Some of that lack of multi-year spending in past offseasons could be attributable both to the team’s rebuilding status and due to the now-former ownership group helmed by the Angelos family. There was significant in-fighting among the Angelos family over control of the franchise, and in any scenario where a team is up for sale, the current owners are going to be reluctant to commit to pricey, long-term commitments.
There was some hope that’d change under new owner David Rubenstein, who purchased the team last spring. But while the O’s have spent more both at the trade deadline and this past offseason, the commitments remained short term. Tyler O’Neill is the only free agent to sign a multi-year deal under Elias, but his contract lets him opt out after the current season. Eflin was controlled beyond 2024, but only for one additional season. Right or wrong, the perception exists that the Orioles are rather squeamish when it comes to longer-term spending.
Whether it was a deliberate calculation or mere happenstance that the O’s again went short-term in the rotation, the end result is a struggling group that runs the risk of undercutting a lineup full of excellent young hitters. There’s no firm indication as to when Rodriguez will be back. Eflin has been throwing on flat ground but has yet to work off a mound. He’ll presumably need a rehab assignment, too. A mid-May return seems like a best-case scenario. Right-handers Tyler Wells and Kyle Bradish had UCL surgery last year and won’t be available until midseason. Albert Suarez was placed on the 15-day injured list after one appearance due to shoulder inflammation and has since been transferred to the 60-day IL.
There are some reinforcements coming for the Orioles, but none of it is likely to pitch at a front-of-the-rotation level. MASNsports.com’s Roch Kubatko writes that Gibson could join the big league club as soon as Friday. (Kubatko’s piece also contains candid, thoughtful and lengthy comments from Morton on his 2025 struggles, which readers are encouraged to check out in full.) Gibson has tossed 12 minor league innings and been effective in building up for the season, but the 37-year-old veteran is at best an innings-eating fourth starter at this point in his career.
Gibson isn’t the only arm on the mend. The Orioles announced this morning that left-hander Trevor Rogers will begin a rehab assignment at Double-A this week. Acquired last July in trade that sent Connor Norby and Kyle Stowers to the Marlins, Rogers is a former top-10 pick, top prospect and Rookie of the Year candidate whose star has dimmed amid a lengthy series of injuries. He was rocked for 15 runs in 19 innings for the Orioles following the trade before being optioned to Triple-A and closing out the year with a 5.65 ERA in his final five minor league starts. He’s a possible fresh arm, which the team needs, but it’s hard to bank on him contributing quality innings. He’ll also probably need a rehab stint of some length, given that he’s been dealing with his current knee issue since January.
For all their pitching struggles, the Orioles sit at 9-12. Their -20 run differential suggests they may be fortunate to be “only” three games under .500, but they’ve kept themselves afloat. If they can stick around in contention while patching together the rotation, then further adding to the rotation will be a primary focus once the trade market opens more fully in the summer. Until then, they’ll likely have to rely on in-house arms and hope the farm yields an unexpectedly productive option. Righty Brandon Young has already made his debut, and it stands to reason that names like Kyle Brnovich, Cameron Weston and perhaps former Nationals Rule 5 pick Thaddeus Ward could get looks if the current struggles continue to mount.
Could have had Cease for Kjersted/Mountcastle…….
I honestly would have thought Baltimore could have done more. They have the money and the young prospects to take over the division. I’m not sure what the teams issues are. The time is now, and if not now, then when???
Owner gave permission to spend, Mikey didn’t want to!😡
Wow! Do you have sources? I’d love to read more about this!
coop – That seems odd, to say the least.
Was there a specific dollar amount budgeted for payroll that was released publicly?
Or are you going by just the generic “we will spend whatever is necessary” that teams often use to appease fans.
It’s because they prospect hoard; they could have traded for the Marlins Sandy Alcartna. (Sp)
1-Sandy probably won’t be on the trading block until he starts pitching well.
2-His 7.27 ERA wouldn’t be as helpful as you think it is.
They dont want to trade any prospects, including Kjerstad who they also seem to not want to play very much, and think Mountcastle is some great get that they should deserve some big haul for.
If that’s the case they’re either gonna have to spend on that rotation, or get used to it being 30th in the league
The only reason Kjerstad hasn’t played much is because he keeps getting hurt
I doubt that would have cleared the hurdle, Verm. All indications say that Preller asked for alot more than that… and rightfully so.
The O’s fans are really overrating their prospects. So far, Kjerstad has a been a platoon/DH/LF so far. The 117 OPS+ is good, but not great, and will weaken as he is exposed to more lefties.
Blows my mind Orioles didn’t jump at the chance to get Cease and the QO pick he will command for Kjerstad, Williams, Fabian, Pham, Young
Padres could have used a restock of the farm with some lower level lottery tickets, gotten their long term LF, picked up an interesting C/1B in Williams
Orioles could have helped their rotation and picked up another 1st round pick if/when cease leaves
But again, why would the Pads trade Cease for nothing more than a King’s ransom? They’re contenders, and trading Cease away changes those dynamics.
Hindsight is always 20/20 but Padres acted like they were operating under financial restraints unwilling to cross over into luxury tax territory. They really stalled out in free agency and made no attempts to replace Profar or Scott or many of their free agents who went elsewhere.
Padres could have used the 14 mill elsewhere to improve the roster this year.
Which would help most in 2025 and beyond
Cease and a 4th round pick they’ll receive since they are in tax payer territory
Kjerstad, other prospects, and 14 mill
My Pads are in the second tier of the CBT. Profar was overpaid; i would have hunted AJ down if he resigned him for anything close to that. Stalled out in FA, or already had 36 of 40 roster spots full over the Offseason? Big difference…
36 of 40 roster spots filled
Chose Heyward and Joe to replace Profar
Chose no one to replace Scott in pen
Chose Diaz to replace Higashioka
They could have traded Cease and used the funds to sign
Quintana for 4 mill instead of Hart or 5 mill. Could have brought back Perez for 5 mill, and Caleb Ferguson for 3 mill
And have Kjerstad for OF instead of Heyward Joe Gonzalez etc etc
Ok, but no TOR buddy for King and Darvish. Gotta look ahead to the Postseason where you need 3 viable starters. If the wheels fall off, then sure, trade the house at the TDL. Doesn’t make any sense before then… unless you’re blown away by an outstanding offer. I suspect Kjerstad or Mayo plus Basallo & Povich might have gotten AJ’s attention. And by Perez, do you mean Martin who is basically out all year? The Pads did a fine job in the Offseason. Minimal holes to fill, and they were. Taylor Scott was expendable by the end, and replaced as Closer by Suarez. We’ll see where the chips all fall by the end, but I would take the Pads roster over the O’s right now.
Swapping out Cease for Kjerstad Quintana Perez and Ferguson definitely would have been a smart move esp since they signed Pivetta who’s been a god send
They’d definitely be better off than they currently are in LF.
And a rotation of
King
Quintana
Pivetta
Perez
5th
Definitely has more appeal than
King
Cease
Pivetta
Vasquez
Hart
Again, Perez is probably out for the year… and just who would be your hypothetical 5th? The Pad’s roster is 10 times better as currently constructed. I’ll take
King
Cease
Darvish
Pivetta
Hart/Vasquez
Any day of the week over that mess. We’re tied for 1st, Dodgers. Maybe you’re just showing your fear?
“FIRST TO 10. FIRST TO 15” vibes from gwynning
So? Perez could have stayed healthy all year with the padres for all we know. And he’s a better 5 than Vasquez and Hart.
That’s fine
Kjerstad Quintana Perez a relief arm > Cease Hart Hayward Joe Gonzalez
Agree to disagree. Cheers bub!
Easy – most Pad fans agree trading King / Cease was not a good idea and based on 24 games so far, we are good.
This is a competitive team – why worry about building up the farm to the detriment of the 2025 mlb team.
Profar – even before the suspension most SD fans were saying happy to let him go at 45 mil.
Not knocking his time in SD.
Gwynning – right on. Those last 3-4 spots on the roster are not going to make or break a competitive team. Guy 26 doesn’t win (or lose) a team many games.
Anyone seen Solano’s stats so far! Wow has he cratered. Peralta not even signed!
AJ found the 2025 version of 3 older vet bench pieces – some work out and some don’t – always going to be that way.
Let’s roll in 25 with what we got – and what we should get back real soon!
Hoeing, Reynolds, Merrill, Jake, and Luis all back within next 3-10 games and then Yu at end of May/early June – that could be like a trade deadline pick up.
Dodgers thinking the same for Ohtani (pitching), CK and Gonsonlin for example.
This could turn into a dogfight that even SD fans didn’t date hope for after all LA did in offseason.
A. You don’t know if Q would have signed with SD – not rotisserie league.
B. Never improve tour team by trading a top 5 CY guy.
C. A 2.0 WAR LF is a lot easier to find than any a Dylan Cease type SP.
D. LF will be fine – will have to work thru some guys to find the answer but there are plenty of guys theee.
E. SD fans and AJ knew Scott was expendable and well, he wasn’t signing to be an 8th inning guy. If you want proof, look at SD BP stats – and we are missing 2 guys in Reynolds and Hoeing both due back soon.
BP is fine.
Best record in MLB and you want to criticize the moves made or not made. Enjoy the ride!
Dodgers – at least you are pushing how SD would be better with Profar in LF!
Again, SD is ok where they are so, let’s just roll.
Kjerstad, Williams, Fabian, Pham, Young
======================
That’s not enough. Four of those guys look like career minor leaguers. And Kjerstad doesn’t move the needle enough.
Could have had Max Fried
Really? Think players are dumb?
The O’s have no veteran leadership. The youngsters don’t play defense well or execute fundamentals. Their way of working with pitchers sends them to the IL and potentially can ruin their careers.
O’s need a lot more than one big-name starting pitcher that might throw 160 innings a year.
The FO totally messed up the rebuild. Letting McCann go – the team leader, a great handler of pitchers, and a gamer was the final sign for me….worse yet they replaced him with Gary Sánchez.
That organization is in bad, bad trouble. They have major systemic problems in the FO that need to be addressed.
So why are Orioles pitchers getting hurt at a higher rate than the rest of the league, and if they are (obviously not) can you explain to me why they’re getting hurt?
No “star” free agent is signing with Baltimore unless the deal is nearly double what the second-best offer is. This isn’t 1972. Baltimore is a horrendous area and I can’t see a high-profile free agent moving his family anywhere near that dump.
Hey, shootings are down to 12 a night. Where’s the love?
No one saw this coming.
Who would have thought your only TOR arm in Burnes leaving and failing to replace him AND add another TOR instead opting to sign 4s and 5s would wind up like this.
Bummer they couldn’t sign Burnes. He was the right TOR to pursue. IE. small injury history.
Signing innings eaters to 1 yr deals worked out in 22, 23 & 24. After losing out on Burnes, they went to that strategy again in 25. And I get it. They seem to see Bradish and Rodriguez as long term answers … and possibly Wells … to their rotation success. So bring in guys like Surgano, Morton and Gibson as placeholders until they r back to health. Yes? No? Maybe?
1 year deals didn’t work out. Zero playoff series won. What am I missing here?
Relatively speaking they worked out in light of the run of losing seasons they had prior to 22. By the way, it was the hitting that faltered in the playoff years of 23 and 24.
Burnes pitched as advertised last year. the measure of success is not only on playoff series wins. I get your point but when the bats don’t show up, you can hardly blame the pitchers. no pitcher has ever pitched a negative ERA to win in lieu of offense.
it is too easy to stick to a single smug narrative like “1 yr deals don’t work”. you have to find the right fit for a pitcher and also hope for health. AND the bats need to figure it out. we can see what happens when the offense dries up this season… there is no margin for error with these current healthy starters but that’s where the bats need to do their thing to allow us to be competitive.
it’s been very hard to stomach this year but outside of Perez, the Pen has done a good and mostly consistent job (minus the massacre game). if the bats do what they are capable of, even our meh starters could compete and not feel like they can’t attack the zone.
hard to keep your chin up when there’s no clear time table for when the better starters will return.
I think it actually starts with better defense and base running … the basics, when your arms are iffy, you can’t give away outs.
By your logic, if the Pirates beat the Doyers in a 3 game series that automatically makes them better.
Jeff – What is going on with O’Neill and his reverse splits?
He’s just 2-for-21 with no extra base hits against LHP??? That is really, really strange.
I think there’s like a 95% chance he does NOT opt out after this season.
Hey FPG. Crazy indeed. And then there’s a guy like Mullins who, except for 2021, is a career below average hitter hitting lights out. The kick in the teeth here? O’Neil probably does stay by opting in and Mullins goes to the highest bidder which I can’t believe would be the Orioles. Ugh.
C Yards Jeff;
No.
It was clear going back to mid-2024 when they traded Austin Hays that they were dumping the veterans. Their veteran players were shocked, they saw the handwriting on the wall.
If I figured that out at the time, what makes you think players and their agents didn’t? What FA pitcher – let alone those in the most demand – wants to sign a long-term contract with a team that’s dumping the veterans that lead to their contending, so that they can spend the next 2-3 years going through growing pains that might not work out?
I thought the recent White Sox and Phillies rebuilds were a mirage, and the Pirates never really even showed any signs of any possible success. The FO on this one might well be the most tone deaf.
The mess is just starting…..
Oh, darn Samuel figured everything out after they traded Hays! Another laughable comment and take.
You seem to only possess the ability to recognize things that exist in your echo chamber of ignorance, as if your take is the only possible explanation and outcome.
Hays? A player so good that he had a couple good games in Philly and was largely a below average player. A player who is such a coveted talent veteran that he was only able to find a one year contract with the reds at the end of January. Again, he’s had a good few games but is hardly a needle mover. It was THAT transaction that gave you the basis for your hot take?
MLB front offices, take note, get this guy in the front office!
Yes, I did.
Why would their veterans be shocked that they dropped a declining Austin Hays, given the number of solid outfield (and infield) prospects like Kjerstad waiting for their turn in the big leagues? And they did go out and sign the veteran Tyler O’Neill, a player who’s still in his prime and capable of having a great season, unlike Austin Hays.
Hays always got hurt and was essentially a platoon player against lefties after losing the starting spot to Colton Cowser. Trading Hays made too much sense to everyone.
I to was wondering why any vets would’ve been shocked. I’m not shocked that’s Samuel was as usual pompice and failed to consider what trading Hays provided BAL.
Pache was tossed into trade and a non factor. Seranothy Dominguez though was a different story. In the 22 games he appeared in for BAL they were 18-4. He obviously wasn’t singlehandedly winning those games, but he helped a team with playoff aspirations make the playoffs.
As for Hays he was gone anyways. BAL is overflowing with position talent. It’s quite convenient that he was the example here. His stats for a brief sample that has been 2025 look nice at quick glance and him having settled for a 1-yr added to that brief sample of stats fits the narrative of he wants.
Unsurprisingly, he chose nor mention Santander leaving. But his stats don’t support the narrative he wants, nor does he look like as much of a bargain.
Austin Hays is mediocre.
That he is and BAL has a ton of young MLB talent and there 40 man roster has same finite quantity of spots as every other MLB team.
But when accounting for nothing else Hays at a very quick surface glance is easy to formulate a narrative around. Samuel just yearns to sound as though brilliant. On many occasions he does have some good takes. However he also often has some enormous swing and misses such as this. Of course he’d never take any semblance of accountability for misses such as this.
Samuel. IMO, Elias and crew did not anticipate the success they had so soon in to the rebuild. The position player vets he envisioned as placeholders turned out to be winners. IE. specifically Hays, Santander and Mullins.
So whatta ya do. Do you stick with the long term plan of integrating the newbies to eventually turning the roster over to them or keep these vet winners around. To me it’s obvious they’re sticking to their long term plan. Pretty sure Mullins is next to go. Cheers.
C Yards Jeff;
I don’t think you’re comprehending the extent of recent actions by the FO.
This FO has been in place for 6 years now. They HAVN’T DEVELOPED ONE starting pitcher that’s stayed healthy and productive for any length of time. I can’t detail the mistakes Gunner makes playing SS. Yet they keep him there. Holiday’s natural position is clearly SS, he’s not comfortable playing 2B. Gunner is not the only kamikaze defensive player – Cowser has spent more time on the IL than the active roster since being called up – for running into walls and bases that didn’t make a difference in the games he did it in. The young guys on the team don’t play good and smart defense, run the bases well, or do situational hitting. They don’t recognize what point the team is in during a game and adjust their approach. And again, how can a team not develop one consistent, relatively healthy starting pitcher in 6 years and expect to be a sustainable playoff contender?
I’ve seen successful rebuilds. In them veterans were used to be leaders and acclimate the youngsters to not only the way to play ball at the ML level, but what they had to do on the field to help the team win. The O’s youngsters were seeing that with the veterans when the team won 101 games in 2023. But now the FO is systematically dumping them when it’s clear that the youngsters are pretty much still at square one. OK. Tellme, what young players do they have that play the game correctly are are ready to assume leadership?
–
I saw the owner talking quite a bit to Cal Ripken during the game a few nights ago. The man bought the franchise for $1.725 billion in January, 2024. He probably has some minority investors as well as some pretty big debt payments to make. In cases like this (in any business) an owner will usually find some outside consultants to discuss the situation – why and what options there are to right the ship. Retired MLB FO people do that sort of consulting. My guess is that at some point Mr. Rubenstein will be going over the situation with someone(s) outside of the organization. Again, it’s normal in business.
–
You want to see a young team play ML baseball correctly? Watch some Brewers games. They are what the O’s were supposed to be.
Samuel. Other than the Eflin trade and in hindsight the Siranthony (sp) one, overall poor returns. Elias went cheap; hoping players struggling with other teams could catch fire here. When you’re playoff bound spend on proven talent and preferably with playoff experience. The cheap way first caught my attention in 23 when the Os were in need of a quality set up arm. They acquired that Fujinami guy instead going for a Pierce Johnson type which AA in Atlanta pounced on.
Oh, IMO, too early to bring in consultants. Let’s see how the season progresses. I’m excited to see if the returns of Bradish, Rodriguez and Wells have positive impact.
What FA pitcher – let alone those in the most demand – wants to sign a long-term contract with a team….
===========================
Pitchers sign with bad teams all the time, provided they have money.
Samuel – let’s not go nuts on Hays
Hays was a slightly above average outfielder who was good for half a season of good play, a long slump, decent defense, and an injury every year.
I don’t equate moving him out of the way for a rookie who outproduced him immediately offensively and is a clearly better defender “dumping the veterans”
Jeff
23 was a low 90s win team that got lucky. Compare the health of that team to this year’s team or last year’s team, the 30-16 one run record, late and close hitting stats, RISP stats.
Never been high on Wells. If Rodriguez’s shoulder needs surgery, he’s done as a front line starter hope realistically. Then down to a maybe on Bradish.
There were many, many other options available over the past couple winters but they chose not to spend or pursue. Luzardo was available for peanuts. Fried cost less than the sum of Sugano, Morton, and Gibson. They chose to sell Irvin as a diamond in the rough find.
The Orioles thought they were one step away, they were fooling themselves. 2025 is making that painfully evident.
I’m holding out hope TM. I’m holding out hope. Still early. Hoping Bradish and Rodriguez can be productive when back. But to your point, sketchy indeed. I like Wells; so curious about him too. Speaking of good health. Cowser is out and I’m thinking guys like Westburg and Rutschman have gotta be banged up. Curious there too.
Jeff
I don’t think Westburg is 100%. He hasn’t looked the same.
Rutschman is puzzling. Many highlights of him hitting the ball hard and right at someone or good plays being made, it seems. Can’t be a total luck thing can it?
Gunnar looks completely off. He also has lost any semblance of patience, which is worrisome.
Wells – I think the low WHIP he gets, especially 2023, is an illusion that hides bad FIP and getting hit hard. He hits a wall at 100 innings, he seems to always gets hurt, he’s turning 31,
The good news is they can’t play worse than this, they are still 9-13 and there are no 1984 Tigers running away with the East. Good Orioles teams from my youth often were still .500 going into June. If they go 11-7, that’s 20-20 (25% is when I stop saying “early”). They have the lineup to do it if they start taking a few pitches. Good Orioles teams from my youth had good starting rotations though.
Thorn – Imagine if the O’s had given the same contract to Pivetta that the Padres gave.
Or had given Imanaga the same contract that the Cubs gave.
Those are just two of the many affordable options they ignored.
Fever – I was working on a list of affordable options who you’d put on the top half of a contending rotation, literally just wrote down Pivetta when I got to your post.
Imanaga is an option too, doesn’t have the track record, but plays back to the Orioles bargain hunting in Japan in the past versus what they would have paid in the US. Certainly paying off so far!
Thornton – Do you have Lugo on your list? He was a bargain last year, not as effective this year but it’s still early.
TM: You’ve got me rethinking Wells. Thanks for the take.
Fever – if he wasn’t 35. The way he’s pitched the last year or two yeah. The Royals are kind of like the bizarro-Orioles with him.
Jeff – Wells would be a good spot starter/long reliever/swing man TBH but not a rotation fixture. It would be tough to find a great role for him with limitation on staff #’s
Geez, almost everyone saw this coming. Eflin is forever injured, Morton is 49 years old, Rodriguez appears to always be injured, Kremer is as a 5th starter on a bad team.
Yup, if they had only added Burnes -0- wins and 5.42 FIP to their rotation…..
Sure, it’s a small sample size, but I can’t believe that anyone wants Burnes’ contract at this point.
First sentence is awkward, Steve. Missing a “not” perhaps? Love your show anyway, hanging up meow.
Gwynn – Based on my interactions with O’s fans, I’d say the “not” was definitely an omission!
Trade Mountcastle + a prospect for an ace
To whom? And for whom? I regret to inform you that Mounty has minimal trade value attached. Aces cost more than *that*, even moreso for one with control. Mounty + any prospect on Earth isn’t even close to enough for a pseudo-TOR guy in Alcantara.
@gwynning. I’m waiting to hear mountcastle and Morton for cease and saurez and the old gum ball machine.
Heck, get Billy to pay for the Pepsi machine and we might have a deal Huds! J/k 😛
@gwynning. Good luck he couldn’t even pay for a hair transplant. Jk. I was just saying that because cubs fans are already starting offers, and yes the padres are in first. Doesn’t look like it’s going to happen. The only thing i can see happening and a big is saurez. Maybe they can pull two prospects and a ready bullpen piece.
Mountcastle and a prospect could absolutely land an ace. Problem is Cal Ripken hasn’t been a prospect in over 40 years….
This!
You know what fine. Mounty + a prospect for a #2 guy. Just give me a starting pitcher.
With all the young first basemen getting off to good starts this year, how much appeal can Ryan Mountcastle have? He’s below average and isn’t going to bring much back in a trade.
@Gabriel Mountcastle and a prospect probably couldn’t land most of the current #3’s in MLB rotations. Most teams don’t think that highly of Mountcastle for the same reasons you wouldn’t mind seeing him dealt.
Mountcastle seems routinely overrated for some reason. A 2-win 1Bman, light on OBP and with no upside beyond that, with two years of team control remaining and salaries figuring to be around $7m and $10m in 2025 and 2026?
That’s roughly $15m in surplus value if he holds serve on 2023 and ’24, again with no upside but plenty of downside (players with his record regularly disappear the moment their reflexes decline just a little) which doesn’t get you near a solid MOR, let alone a TOR. He might tip the scales if a prospect haul is otherwise almost enough to get a postseason caliber starter, but he’d be only very supplementary in that kind of deal.
@jackstrawb. I don’t think anyone is saying you can’t trade mountcastle.
You would just have to be trading him separately. The only rebuilding team i could’ve seen doing it was the whitesox as a kicker for crochet. Someone might bite at the deadline if injuries occur. It will be something to soften the blow by giving up 4 top prospects to get a ace. It’s a preller move, and just hope you hit on the trade. Mountcastle should bring back two guys.
Even if that prospect was Basallo, you’re not getting a true ace for that and Mountcastle. The Cubs are going to be heavily involved in the pitching market, and they’ll drive the bids up.
The problem is, the rest of the league doesn’t value Mountcastle very high. Reports are that Baltimore tried but teams just weren’t interested. The guys hosting the weekly chats have repeatedly said as much. Teams were interested in the youngsters, who they aren’t willing to trade.
sillywabbit
The problem is, the rest of the league doesn’t value Mountcastle very high.
============================
Mountie has a 110 OPS+ over the past 3+ seasons. That’s okay, but no one is giving you a real prospect for that, and certainly not a top-100.
Limited baseball intelligence if thinking Mountcastle and a prospect have any value
Too late to trade Mountcastle. His trade value was middling to begin the season and is only lower now.
Mountcastle’s realistic peak trade value was in July 2024 when he was hitting in the .270s before he got hurt and a few contenders needed a 1B/DH type who had pop. Before he got hurt. Again. He still had value in the offseason when teams were shopping for this. He has no value now when no one’s shopping and he’s not hitting.
(I say “realistic” because the Orioles weren’t going to put him on the market prior to this, though he probably had more value after the 2023 season).
I remember when people were saying sugano was going to suck.
@.@
I hope Sugano/his interpreters continue to ignore everything he’s being told by Orioles coaches and trainers.
He’s done pretty well so far. I don’t like some of his underlying numbers. 8K’s in 21 IP and 5.60 FIP are ugly. But too early to tell, need at least 3-5 more starts.
@thornton. He’s not a high k guy. If he causes ground outs with the d behind it should be sustainable. It definitely looks like a bargain compared to Cobb or Morton. Definitely not saying he’s a ace but he’s a solid 4th, 5th
Rex – ok, given that then the beware sign should be if balls start getting hit in the air off Sugano. I’d be fine if he was at the back end of a good rotation.
This thread wouldn’t be here if the Orioles’ rotation was Fried-Eflin-Luzardo-Sugano-Kremer, and awaiting Bradish or Rodriguez back from injury to replace Kremer.
He probably does suck. He has a 8/5 K/W in 21 IPs, with 4 HRs.
I can’t get over the lack of outrage from the fanbase the past few seasons. The excitement fans got from only getting Jack Flaherty in 2023 was embarrassing. I thought things would change with Rubenstein, but they haven’t, but more because Elias it seems as rumors say Elias has been given an open check book. I thought the rotation would be better this year, but I’m not surprised they have performed how they have. The offense is inconsistent. Idk what’s with Adley but it’s coming to a point where I am concerned about his future. I still think the offense can turn it around, but it would’ve been nice to do more to upgrade than Tyler O’Neil. I still wish they’d go out and get someone with Mayo. There’s no place for him. You can have Adley, Basallo, Holliday, Gunnar, and Westburg for the next 5+ years. Go out and get Crochet, sign fried or Snell. There’s your rotation. Does that fix the offense? Probably not, but maybe less pressure on them. But that’s the offseason I was hoping for. Idk. Just ranting. I’m just worried the window is closing and am frustrated at Elias. Still excited for the future and think there’s still time to turn it around
I think you should be open-minded about Rubes for now, lest we forget that players decide where to sign, not the opposite. Be patient, I think you’ve got a better Ownership sitch in hand.
I’m good with him. He seems great. Especially compared to the Angelos’s. I’m more just in shock of Elias if he truly does have free reign to spend at a higher rate. I’m not expecting Soto or ohtani, but I expected more
I had a hunch that you guys were going to get Snell…
I know your “frustration” as I somewhat feel it, too. Maybe a little known fact here but your O’s are my favorite AL team and I almost always root for them. I feel somewhat disappointed about their Offseason too, but you can’t lose sight of the fact that ultimately players decide where to play. Who would you like to move and bring in via trade? That’s a distinct possibility… still! Cheers amigo
I was big on Crochet. At this point I feel like waiting for next year when Bradish and hopefully Grayson are healthy. If I’m remembering right, there are some good arms in FA next year. If the mariners would part with one of their top guys, I’d for sure be in. They need an ace. And they need to be willing to make a splash. And cheers to you too!
Yeah, nailed it. Don’t be gunshy, even after the Flaherty nosedive. I think that’s the ticket. Just gotta find the right dance partner.
There are only 6 players the Mariners won’t trade. Cal, Julio, & the 4 young starting pitchers. Baltimore it appears feels the same way about its talented young infielder group.
Luis Castillo is a number 2 that was available, but terms couldn’t be agreed upon; they apparently declined an offer of Mountcastle.
Elias, great at drafting and development of hitters. Poor at everything else. Really poor at pitching evaluation.
Everyone that watches MLB knew they needed SP. Besides that, where are the surprise finds in the pitching dept? Nada.
Morton, Eflin, Gibson, Rogers?? really?
Thank you! Finally! Someone who understand that free agents don’t have to sign with whomever throws the most cash at em. I get so frustrated when people say “they should have signed X and Y”. Not how it works.
You should be extremely frustrated.
You could have kept Flaherty but you treated him poorly and it took the Tigers coaching staff to get him back on line. Look what Detroit has now with 5 great starters and some really good relievers. Yes. You can beat them because they can’t hit but good pitching wins a lot of games.
2012 – were you not seeing any of my posts? lol My latest diatribe about pitching is below.
They could have had Fried and Luzardo over this past winter. Snell 2 winters ago but that was “too risky.” This when they knew going into the offseason injury-prone Rodriguez was coming off another injury, Bradish out at least 60% of 2025 at minimum, Means likely done, Burnes was a free agent. They did NOTHING.
The offense is team-wide regression. Only Holliday among the young core is showing any progress this spring. The others are showing alarming steps backward. Only Mullins (playing in a contract year) looks like a hitter right now.
The fact that NOTHING was done after losing 24-2, the warehouse was absolutely silent Monday on an off day – Morton, Perez, Mateo, and Hyde all remained Orioles – shows that all accepted the status quo and there will be no accountability. The team saw this and went out to be one-hit against the Nats in a listless performance as you’d expect.
I remember during ST reading an article about how Rutschman turned it around after ditching his IG influencer girlfriend, but apparently he just got a bounce from that and is now back in the ditch. Also keep hearing how Hyde is on the hot seat, but I don’t think even Connie Mack could do anything with that rotation.
You can have Adley, Basallo, Holliday, Gunnar, and Westburg for the next 5+ years. Go out and get Crochet,
=======================
No, you can’t. The opening bid for Crochet would start with Basallo or Holliday.
Pitcher Justin Wrobleski for center field Cedric Mullins.
Mullins will be a free agent after this season.
Orioles have 2 or 3 promising outfielders coming.
Enrique Bradfield Jr., Vance Honeycutt & Dylan Beavers. Doubt if the Orioles are looking to extend/offer Mullins a contract for next year and beyond.
Throw in Bobby Miller and I suspect the O’s do that trade today. Pick a lower tier O’s prospect for balance, if necessary.
Yeah, although I think Friedman would want Mullins to agree to sign a 2 or 3 year contract before including Miller along with a lower prospect from the Orioles like you said.
Deferrals included in Mullins new contract!
There, got that out of the way too!
Why would the Orioles do that? They are trying to compete in 2025.
Ohhhhhhh Joel…
King. Of. Crazy. More like it!
You better hope the Padres can win in 2025. The future isn’t looking too bright…..
Worry about your Cards. We’re fine!
As every Charles Schwab commercial says “Past performance does not guarantee future results”
Cards – are they? Have you watched this team outside of Mullins play this year?
Who would have known letting your ace walk was bad!
The offered him way more money at a higher yearly rate than Arizona. That’s not letting him walk. Burnes wanted to pitch at home
Actually, they offered him LESS money at a higher yearly rate. He signed for $30M more than the Orioles alleged offer.
Also Maryland’s tax rate is about a point higher than Arizona.
They didn’t “let” Burnes walk – he decided to sign elsewhere as a free agent.
Right! Then they did nothing to refill the gaping hole at SP 1.
Who was there to after Burnes signed? Please educate me. Theres less than 12 number 1s in the league. Hindsight is 20/20 but I don’t think shoring up the back of the rotation was a bad pivot at the time
Sean Manaea
Griffin Canning
Jesus Luzardo
Clay Holmes
Max Fried
Marcus Stroman (just kidding)
Garrett Crochet
Luis Severino
Eovaldi
That’s all for now.
Again…..
What makes you kids think that bringing in a big-name starting pitcher to throw 160 innings a year….maybe….is going to resolve the challenge to cover the 1,400 innings a ML team pitches in the regular season?
And this team at one point had SIX STARTING PITCHERS ON THE IL. No players agent worth his or her salt with a marketable FA starting pitcher will let their client sign with the O’s – it may well not only ruin the pitchers career….it may ruin the agents. This is not rotisserie league. Peoples careers are on the line here.
If the Orioles offered any top starter more money than the other teams, then yes, their agent should have certainly encouraged their player to sign with Baltimore. They are no more likely to get injured there than with the Dodgers, the Rays, the Toledo Mud Hens, or any other team.
Incorrect. None of those players signed after Burnes did. Literally zero of them. And since u mentioned that the orioles let their number 1 starter go, how many of those players are aces?
Etched in stone. You think Elias didn’t know what Burnes was thinking? Gimme a freaking break.
They have a gaping hole at SP 1,2 4 and 7,8.
Samuel
They could have had Luzardo for two mid tier minor leaguers on 12/22/24. Luzardo looks great this year.
They could have had Fried for what they are paying Morton, Sugano, and Gibson prior to any of those three moves. Fried looks awesome this year.
Did they know in January that the rotation in March and April was apparently made out of paper clips.
But I think having Fried and Luzardo as 1-2 before you even talk about Rodriguez at a 3, or Kremer, Povich, McDermott, Young, is a heck of a lot better than the giant pile of sludge they have now for basically the same money!
Maybe other pitchers/free agents to be see Fried and Luzardo go to Baltimore and go hmm, Baltimore’s finally serious about building a contending staff, we should think about going there!
Six on the IL sounds like a valid excuse; but the Dodgers used 40 pitchers last year and still won the World Series. Contenders now plan on going 7-8-9 starters deep.
DarkSide830
Who would have known letting your ace walk was bad!
========================
Small sample size warning, but Burnes has stunk this year.
Hyde should have been canned last year.
I’d kick him upstairs. He’s a loyal employee that offers value to the model.
Bring in a veteran manager ala a Bochy or Francona. One caveat. That crew in the warehouse will need to let go of controlling what happens on the field and put full trust in the old field manager to do his job. Can you do that Elias? I like Joe Madden.
C Yards Jeff;
There is nothing wrong with Hyde. They let him go it will be like the Cards firing Mike Schildt. Mr. Hyde would be scooped up quickly.
There is a major problem with the way they handle pitchers, and especially that pitching coach.
Fair point Samuel. I’m chewing on it. Recent history of LaRussa losing the clubhouse in Chicago was the genesis of my thought path. Hmm.
Samuel – ok, then please give us the positives about Hyde. I see mismanagement of the rotation and lack of consistency with the lineup that has contributed to problems this season, and I see regression of the young hitters, I see lack of accountability.
He doesn’t pitch.
How is it Hyde’s fault that the GM gave him almost nothing to build a rotation with? As someone already mentioned, Hyde can’t take the hill. There isn’t a manager on the planet that could win with the O’s current rotation.
Local story floating around that there’s a moral issue in the clubhouse. It seems to be on the hitting side of things. Too much platooning and movement of hitters up and down the line up. Not good.
C Yards Jeff;
Clubhouses are run by the players. Not the coaches, manager, or FO.
They let go some of their veterans. Refuse to even speak with Mullins agents about an extension when he wants to stay, and will no doubt dump other veterans even before the end of the season let alone the offseason.
There is no veteran leadership. That’s rotisserie league stuff. I knew what was going to happen this season when they let McCann go – very possibly the most respected player in the clubhouse. How tone deaf is that FO? Embarrassing. I’ve done a 180 on them.
Rotisserie league stuff, lol
McCann is one of those guys you keep around because of his leadership abilities. I bet the Braves are happy.
A moral issue in the clubhouse? Like chewing gum, throwing popcorn at Minecraft, listening to Frank Zappa and that rap music not walking old ladies across the street?
Moral issues in the clubhouse are a real thing. I’ve been there. Managers can not let that fester. Recent history of LaRussa losing the White Sox clubhouse is my example.
I hope and assume the word you all mean is “morale.”
Samuel – of course Mullins wants to stay. He’s going to say that in April when he’s hot, and that no other team in April 2025 is going to value him and pay him more than the Orioles will at his age and situation. That’s common sense, and I won’t call Mullins greedy for that. I would say the exact same thing.
Mullins has been my favorite Oriole since Adam Jones left. The fact is he’s an incomplete player, he can’t hit lefties well (17 AB this year won’t change my stance on that). Still fast, can steal. A once great defender whose range has steadily declined each year to the point his defense is now average save for some highlight reel plays, and he’ll be turning 31 at the end of the season.
Its an odd place for a free agent to be without many comparables. If he stays hot he may play his way into a 3 or 4 year deal with a lot of incentives and make some money but he won’t hit the jackpot. I don’t see the Orioles paying him because 1. they’re cheap to begin with and 2. aforementioned prospects. I don’t think he’ll continue to produce like he has this spring but along his career average lines if kept away from lefties, steal some bases, may need to move to the corner.
Jeff completely agree with morale issues and the manager needing to provide guidance.
Strong manager in Davey Johnson and the return of Eddie Murray healed the 1996 Orioles – they jelled, went on a run, and made the ALCS.
I think morale issues and the lack of leadership skill in Ray Miller kept the 1998 and 1999 Orioles from at least getting a wild card. No way those teams don’t win at least 85-90 games..
“Ray Miller” LOL
LOL, paule. Put it on my ta.
Good point sleepy drunk Tony would lose the clubhouse also would lose his keys on the way from the bar to his ride
But when a guy has thrown 70 pitches going into the 5th, he’s in a groove and only given up 1 run, you don’t pull him when your bullpen is tired. You let him pitch the 5th at least.
Their minus 20 run differential suggests what exactly? They lost Morton’s most recent start by a score of 24-2. Throw that game out and they’re sitting at plus 2 runs for the season.
Plus 2 isn’t good for a team that’s supposed to be a contender. And you don’t get to take games out of the equation anyways.
You kids really think that’s the problem?
They got one hit tonight and getting an ace starting pitcher
is the problem?
How many weeks have you been following MLB?
Run differential means nothing to Samuel. If he even knows what it is.
LOL
When the team comes up in the bottom of the first down 4-0 or 5-0, as has happened a few times this year, that’s a problem!
Plus 2 runs for a team like this. That’s a substantial indication of problems.
Throw out their losses and they’re undefeated
Yeah and that’s why there’s still a little bit of hope among O’s fans. But who do you replace Morton with when your 1-3 starters are all hurt as well as few other potential replacements. It’s hard to see how it isn’t a lost season for the Os, especially pitching wise.
Trade Mayo, who btw still has no place to play, for pitching. I am a Cardinals fan Mayo could make sense for the Cardinals. Fedde, Matz and more that makes sense for both teams. The Cardinals are the ones looking at a lost season not the Orioles.
New owner, same attitude. Cheap and non-commital. As usual, they over value the youngsters, believing they’re all destined for Cooperstown.
Brutal reading.
My literary game needs more “happenstance”. Fine effort !
Signing Morton and Sugano instead of a top of the rotation pitcher was a huge mistake and it’s not hindsight. Could have traded Mayo for someone like Crochet they didn’t do that either.
What planet are you on?
You really think the White Sox would trade Crochet for Mayo? Have you seen him play at the ML level?
And has it occurred to you that quality FA pitchers are careful about teams they sign with? Going to a team that not only can’t develop starting pitching but gets most of their pitchers injured, isn’t exactly a desirable destination point.
Go back and talk to the kids in your rotisserie league.
Going into 2025 Mayo had a whopping 41 plate appearances at the big leafue level. He was and still currently is the number 13 prospect in all of baseball according to MLB.com.
Free agents want to go to winning teams and the Orioles have been winners in recent years with a still strong farm system.
A lot of men who are much smarter than you have been playing in rotisserie leagues for years. It’s a multi-million dollar industry. NFBC has leagues with entry fees over a thousand dollars. No kids are playing in those, I can assure you.
What top of the rotation starter was available after Burnes signed with Arizona? Also the Red Sox traded 4 prospects for crochet. 2 mlb top 50 prospects. The other two were top 15 in the Red Sox organization. Perhaps the orioles should of traded for crochet but it would of taken a lot more than mayo
Mayo was rated higher than any of the Red Sox prospects. His value is probably similar to the value of the 2 top 50 guys. So it wouldn’t have taken all that much more. And let’s keep in mind not only did the Orioles miss out their division rival got him. And the Orioles really needed a lefty as well. That was the deal to make they just didn’t make it.
Mayo is ranked 13th and teel was 25th. Not a huge difference. The orioles would have had to give up mayo and basallo to match the Red Sox value and I’m not willing to do that
Also garret crochet has one year of being an above average starter which was his only time ever pitching average mlb innings and has an extensive injury history. He is not without risk
Mayo is ranked much higher than Teel you just said so yourself. Why would the Orioles have to include Basallo too???? That makes no sense at all.
Of course Crochet came with risk. The extension they gave him was risky too. But now the Red Sox have an ace. And the Orioles dont.
The Red Sox traded 4 prospects for crochet. 2 top 50 in mlb and two others in the organization top 15.
Like I stated 4 times to you there isn’t a huge difference between the 13th and 25th ranked mlb prospects. Since you’re a cardinal fan I’m assuming I know more about the orioles farm system than you. To March bostons offer the orioles would have had to offer mayo or basallo, bradfield then two others like Fabian and McDermott. That’s a lot of prospect value.
Another way to equate that value is basallo and mayo
Mayo, Bradfield, Fabian and McDermott. That’s fair. The Orioles don’t need any of those guys. Why would you not want to do that deal?
1. Crochet isn’t a clean, flawless player as explained
2. If there’s one orioles prospect I’m not trading it’s bradfield. If he reaches his potential he’s Juan Pierre. Exactly what this offense needs
Sugano doesn’t look like a bad signing at all. He’s the only healthy pitcher that’s pitching half decent.
Fire Hyde
simple solutions come from simple thinkers
MacGromit;
You’re great.
But it gets worse here every year.
Brandon Hyde? More like Brandon Jeckyl amirite?
Hoarding prospects window closing back to meh crowds hello 4th place my old friend
The Orioles had more than enough payroll flexibility AND prospect capital to bring in at least one top of the rotation starter in the offseason. They probably could have beaten the Red Sox offer for Crochet if they had tried to, and easily could have signed at least one good free agent starter. They simply didn’t get it done, and are already paying the price for it.
An equivalent trade of orioles prospects for crochet would be mayo, basallo, Fabian and McDermott. That’s a lot to pay for a pitcher with an extensive injury history and literally one year as an above average starter. Maybe the orioles should have done it but people act like it’s a no brainer and it’s not. It’s extremely high risk/high reward
Total nonsense. Basallo and Mayo are and were rated much much higher than the Red Sox prospects were.
All big signings and big trades are high risk high reward. Signing Morton was high risk low reward. That was stupid.
Prospect hoarding with such a good group is a silly game to play, if the Red Sox and orioles stay this mediocre you have that to blame. That said at least the Sox got crochet…
How have the O’s hoarded prospects when they traded prospects for Burnes, Eflin and Trevor Rogers? The difference is the Red Sox signed Crochet to an extension where the O’s haven’t signed anyone to an extension yet.
Again would u trade basallo and mayo for crochet? Two top 15 mlb prospects for a one year starter with tjs on his history?
Also the difference between the prospects in the teens of the top 100 and twenties is negligible
Etch: Dumb question. The Red Sox already acquired and extended Crochet, so he’s not available to the Orioles.
I’m responding to king of cards with that comment
“The Orioles remade their rotation in the offseason, but to the extent hoped for by Baltimore fans.”
Dollars to donuts old Steve Adams left out a “not” and nobody bothered to proofread or edit the piece.
Unless, of course, Baltimore fans are happy with the team’s performance.
My hopes of seeing this dominant rotation and pen have collapsed:
Means
Bradish
Kremer
Rodriguez
Bautista
Cano
They have a bunch of 3-5 of the rotation guys pitching…. What do you expect. No aces no stud to lift them up.
Push the walls back, stop thinking about home runs all the time and form a balanced team.
You play cheapskate long enough, it will bite you in the ass sooner or later. I don’t care how much young, controllable talent you have on offense. You gotta have starting pitching, and lots of it. Owners don’t wanna spend, this is what you get.
@HAL
Numbers support that “not spending” and “bring cheap” was not the theme of this off season. The Orioles significantly increased payroll from near the bottom of the League to the middle. Percentage-wise, possibly more any other team.
it is very defensible to say the money wasn’t spent on the *right* place but you can’t just apply the “John Angelos is cheap” criticism to this 1st Rubenstein off-season.
Also, after the solid offer to Burnes was not accepted as he went to AZ, it was too late to retool for a run at Fried and he wasn’t as clear a homerun as retaining Burnes would have been.
Maybe I could be more onboard with you if you give specific examples of WHO they should have signed for the.top of their rotation?
HAL
MacGromit doesn’t understand that you get the most bang for your buck from good starting pitching.
I’ve said many times that they needed to invest their dollars in top of the rotation guys. Burnes added more value last year on less dollars than Morton, Sugano, and Gibson could add in 5 years. They could have had Fried for what they paid this trio. Luzardo would be #1 right now or right there with Eflin, he cost two 2nd tier minor leaguers.
The increase in payroll was to backfill the loss of Santander and McCann and at this point, they’ve gone backward there, and it was to keep up with arbitration increases basically as required in the collective bargaining agreement and then what now looks like desperation moves late in the offseason for Morton, Sugano, and now Gibson just to have bodies to put on the mound.
Kittredge as the alternative because they got scared of Hoffman’s as a medical risk is another one I have to laugh at now.
This is a leadership issue. Hyde needs to hit the road. No consistency, merry go round lineup. The poor pitching has masked his horrendous bullpen usage. The team needs a new message. If they hit they can’t pitch, if they pitch they can’t hit. Its a team issue
Nash – that’s next. Akin, Baker, Soto, and Bowman can’t pitch every other game. The bullpen is the only reason the team is within sight of .500. If the rotation is not fixed, the bullpen gets fried, and the only question is how bad the fade is in the 2nd half of the season.
The advantage of a young controllable core is that it allows you to splurge here & there to take advantage of that window of suppressed wages. Soon they won’t be able to afford any pitching even if they wanted to unless they, ironically, end up parting with some of those position players after all
It is like then old Baltimore team owner is still running the show. Truly unbelievable that they went so cheap with pitching. GM should be fired
Yep it’s the exact same as the Jones/Markakis/Davis era Orioles. At least they could hit consistently though. Now it’s the same horrible rotation to go with a lineup that will hit five home runs one day and then get 1 hit the next.
Could’ve had Crochet and Cease but wanted to hug those prospects. GM got lucky in draft since he is obviously clueless and now the fans pay the price.
As I have been posting for years, Mike Elias and Orioles using all their top draft picks on position players and passing on starting pitching.
Orioles need “balance” in their drafts,
Also, I had a long discussion with Orioles fans on these boards about
when the Orioles traded for Corbin Burnes that they should have “doubled down” and traded for more top of the rotation starting pitching.
Orioles invested in 2 years of Burns.
Mike Elias and Orioles had the chance to land another #1 starter like Skubal ( before he “broke out” and became a Cy Young pitcher).
At that time, the Tigers badly needed hitters/position players.
Mike Elias and Orioles decided it was a better strategy to
“hoard position player prospects than to secure
another top of the rotation starter that could have been their path to the World Series.
No one knew/thought Skubal was going to “break out that big”
and become a dominant #1 starter.
Orioles could have landed him, at before his breakout, with a nice package of position player talent.
BUT NO!
Both Mike Elias and Orioles fans were treating every Orioles prospect like they were sure fire future Hall of Famers.
If Mike Elias had pulled the Trigger on Skubal or another young pitcher like him that was ready to “break out” in the major leagues
then, as I was posting at the time, the Orioles would have been in the World Series with two #1 Starters: Burnes and a breakout #1 Skubal.
Flags Fly Forever.
Excessively hoarding prospects while other teams are rising in the AL East has certainly backfired badly on Mike Elias and the Orioles.
And, if the Orioles had landed Skubal or another young starter like him and gone deep in the playoffs and maybe even made the World Series, then do you think the chances of Burnes extending his contract
with the Orioles would have gone up bigtime?!
I think so.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
I was catching a lot a flack on these boards proposing these same
scenarios in real time as it was happening/or not happening
in this case years ago…
Mike Elias and the Orioles balked at giving up SS Jackson Holliday?!
Now, the are back to the drawing board on their rotation?!
Dave Dombrowski employed a daring strategy with the Tigers by sending Granderson to the Yankees and getting an unknown starter at the time named Max Scherzer in a 3 team blockbuster deal.
Mike Elias better get bolder or its back to the internal rebuild drawing board for the Orioles.
SportsFan – I give them a pass on Skubal because he stayed put last year when everyone was after him. I’m pretty sure the Tigers are glad they didn’t move him.
I was talking about the year before last when the Orioles landed Corbin Burnes for 2 years.
Skubal’s value was lower at the time.
He could have been landed for a a couple of top position prospects/hitters and maybe a few “lottery ticket” players
And, Skubal and Burnes would have been a devastating 1-2 punch for those 2 years and carried the Orioles into the World Series at least 1X and maybe even win it.
If Burnes and Skubal had teamed up and bonded, then perhaps both of them stay in Baltimore together on contract exrtensions.
Burnes wasn’t staying in Baltimore when
he was the #1 starter followed by 4 question marks in the Orioles rotation.
That is a deal breaker for most pitchers looking to secure championship rings.
SportsFan – I don’t remember Skubal specifically…but I do remember them taking a pass on getting Snell on the cheap multiple times. They were familiar with Snell too with his being on the Rays.
I think they could have gotten him on the relative cheap for minor leaguers after the 2020 season. But they decided that Matt Harvey was a better idea (he was super cheap) or they could make a starter out of Jorge Lopez (they could not),
IIRC he was also available for a short term deal at the same time as Burnes after the 2023 season and fits your narrative above. That would have worked out pretty well.
Orioles could have landed him, at before his breakout,
=======================
So the idea is to pick out the best pitchers from 2024, and then blame the Orioles for not having traded for them, before they became the best pitchers in BB????
Reading comprehension much?!
No, reread what I posted above.
It is “NOT HINDSIGHT 20/20”
I was discussing these exact same issues and players on these boards at the time of the Corbin Burnes trade to the Orioles(IN “REAL TIME”)
You must be New to MLBTR.
Orioles fans were ready to run me off these boards
and defending almost every young position player and prospect with the Orioles as the next Brooks or Frank Robinson.
And, Orioles fans were saying that Skubal was not that good, had a questionable future, was not even worth 1 top 30 prospect blah, blah, blah..
No!
You missed my point entirely.
I was on the sports forums including MLBTR at the time the Orioles traded for Corbin Burns.
I am not even an Orioles fan.
But, I posted, at the time, that Mike Elias and the Orioles
should have “doubled down” and traded for another top of the rotation starter to pair with Burnes to give them a fantastic 1-2 punch and get them through the playoffs to the WS.
At that time, I mentioned Skubal the Tigers etc.
At that time the Tigers had loads of pitching and were short on hitting. It seemed like a perfect fit to deal Skubal for some of those top young position players and prospects that the Orioles were piling up on their team and in their farm system.
I was attacked repeatedly for my views.
Passionate Orioles fans stated that the Orioles did not need a “mediocre” pitcher like Skubal who would never be a top of the rotation starter.
Besides, “everyone knowns” that all the young Orioles prospects and position players are all destined for the Hall of Fame
and must be hoarded and never traded LOL!
LMFAO!
The Orioles started believing that every prospect ranked nationally was going to be a hit. Let’s face it, very few prospects ever turn out to be superstars. When your window is open to make a deep playoff run you take it. Instead of sending the Tigers Holliday and Mayo for Skubal, they outsmarted themselves and made the move with the marlins for their upgraded SP. how did that turnout? Now some of those prospects are not hitting as well and their value has diminished greatly. Instead of battling for first place now they are destined to battle to stay out of last place.
TigersFan12
“The Orioles started believing that every prospect ranked nationally was going to be a hit.”
While I think every team does that to some extent, I don’t think any team’s perspective pulls further from reality than the Orioles. Matt Wieters elicited Johnny Bench from Orioles brass. At the least, perennial all-star.. Mike Young was hyped on 2 consecutive Orioles’ official previews as The Next Eddie Murray. Countless pitchers as The Next Jim Palmer.
The Orioles hoarding prospects reminds me of Cashman and the Yankees hoarding prospects (many that turned into busts and/or mediocre MLB players) and losing out on players and trades like
Justin Verlander from the Tigers to the Astros.
and Gerrit Cole from the Pirates to the Astros
Yankees have been and are serious “prospect hoarders”.
Orioles are going down that path also.
Some of the Yankees
“untouchable prospects”
Jesus Montero
Manny Banuelos
Andrew Brackman
Mason Williams
Gary Sanchez
Tyler Austin
Slade Heathcott
Greg Bird
Clint Frazier
Miguel Andujar
Estevan Florial
Justus Sheffield
Chance Adams
Deivi Garcia
Oswald Peraza
Everson Pereira
Limit long term deals and pocket the cash.
The O’s offense isn’t shining brightly right now either. Their lineup shows a lot of underperformance.
I for one am shocked that the rotation that looked horrible in the offseason turned out being horrible.
Pirates have good young pitching!? They can’t hit on a consistent basis! Young hitters for young pitchers? It’s not that hard to figure? Make a deal, neither team going anywhere with what they have!
I’ve been saying for years how bad of a GM that Ellias is. People called me crazy, delusional, stupid, etc. He essensially accumulated a lot of top draft picks from the Orioles sucking for 5 years. He prospect hugged when they needed pitching. He also made moves at the trade deadline that were the type of moves where he could have a toothpick in his mouth and act like a genius (picking up players on the cheap who he thinks he could fix, did not workout once) , instead of the big move to put them over the top. Worst GM in the game, but somehow he got “Executive of the year”
As a long time, non-delusional Orioles’ fan who is not blinded by orange tinted glasses, I think I bring a different wrinkle here. I took a lot of heat on these boards by criticizing Elias last winter when he snarkily laughed about the wall moving in during the winter meetings and signing O’Neill and Sanchez, while starting pitchers were signing elsewhere left and right and he did nothing about that. Luzardo was traded to the Phillies for two minor leaguers (not even the top tier ones) on December 22nd, certainly a trade the Orioles could have made from their war chest. The Yankees signed Fried for 31.5M and the self-proclaimed experts expounded that was far too much to spend on a pitcher, while the Orioles spent more than that combined on 41 year old Morton, 35 year old Sugano, and 37 year old Gibson. I’ve been on this team for years about not going after quality rotation guys. Not Gibson. Not Mark Hendrickson. Not Irvin.
That’s just a few examples from this past winter, added to the laundry list of the past four decades.
The problem statement: The Orioles have not been able to develop, keep, or obtain/maintain quality starting pitching for 40+ years. This problem statement transcends the Elias regime, it even overcomes Angelos. It is a sports truth that has outlived “the Cowboys can’t make the NFC championship” and “a Canadian team can’t win the Stanley Cup.”
When was the last time the starting rotation was the strength of a winning Orioles’ team? 1997. Before that? 1992 (maybe). 1984. Yeah. That far back.
How many Next Jim Palmers have we heard about? Eric Bell? Arm blown. Dylan Bundy? Ben McDonald showed flashes but never put it together long term. Grayson Rodriguez is finding himself in that category. Brian Matusz. Adam Loewen. John Maine. The Orioles don’t need Randy Johnson because they have the Dominican version in their system: Daniel Cabrera.
How many pitchers have only been bad in Baltimore? Has anyone taken a look at Jack Flaherty? How about Alex Cobb’s career? Other pitchers were great in other places and then terrible once they came to Baltimore like Sid Fernandez. Its sacrilege in Baltimore to say it, but I’ll put it out there: maybe it wasn’t Ubaldo’s fault how it went down. As soon as Jake Arrieta escaped and was allowed to throw a cutter, look what happened. Gausman’s had several few years after escaping as well.
Then they go for the “diamond in the rough” approach, which Elias has championed. Not that 29 other teams have robust scouting departments, but the Orioles continue to think they are the smartest in the room by unveiling signings of guys like Cole Irvin a couple years ago, trumpeting that they have found the young guy everyone else missed! We got him for cheap and he will exceed expectation, you watch! I was one among those who mentioned his splits outside Oakland Coliseum were not so hot, but I think his being put on waivers last year speaks for itself. No one thought of plucking Tsuyoshi Wada from Asia on the cheap either, not so cheap when you pay him and he doesn’t throw a pitch for you. (Koji Uehara of the same vein was ok salvaged as a good reliever but underwhelming especially compared to the original hype of his arrival).
Outside of that, its the tried and true “warm body” approach that begat guys like Kyle Gibson. Beware when you are being sold “innings eater” and “proven veteran” and “guy who can stabilize the young guns.” That’s your front office telling you they are saving money getting a past ripe guy because they don’t want to pay for anyone good and don’t have anyone else.. Because if you are lucky you’ll get their top end of high 4 or into the 5’s ERA, 160 IP over 30 starts of blah, if healthy. Gibson is the latest in a long line of guys like Mark Hendrickson, Kris Benson, Steve Trachsel, Doug Drabek, and Pat Hentgen.
Makes me wonder if Mike Mussina would have exceeded Randy Johnson or Tom Glavine or Pedro Martinez when one thinks of the truly dominant pitchers of that era had he not been drafted by the Orioles. Mussina always will be The Exception, the glimmer of hope everyone thinks of whenever there is a new prodigy such as Grayson Rodriguez who comes along..
Put crap in get crap out
When the O’s didn’t resign Burnes. Everyone should have known the direction of where this team was going. How do you let an Ace leave in free agency when you need an Ace and your a playoff to WS contender. The O’s did a con job with the fans and league and had people thinking they turned the corner.
holiday for bubic
Rich Hill is still available. He would probably be an improvement.
And now they go to Detroit to face Jobe, Mize and Skubal. But they miss Flaherty and Olson, who just completely dominated the Padres lineup the last 2 days.
Hyde will be the scapegoat. He won’t make it to September.
This was easily seen back in the winter. The O’s really did nothing to improve themselves and I said that it’s disappointing that they are not doing anything during their contention window, similar to what Jays. I would have thought the new owners would have wanted to put a better quality team on the field but I guess they’re looking to sell in July.
York
Exactly as I’m seeing it. There’s a point of no return where they’ll become sellers in July.
For sale and we’ll take your prospects: Eflin, Sugano (if he keeps this up), Dominguez, Soto, Mullins, O’Hearn
For sale, we’ll take anything we can get: Sanchez, Gibson, Morton (no one’s that stupid)
O’Neill is playing badly, he’ll take his player option. Mateo is useless so they’ll bring him back, Laureano doesn’t seem to have a place so they’ll bring him back, Kittredge hasn’t done anything yet so I can see them bringing him back.
Everyone else is trapped.
Not one cent committed for 2028, just like those other serious contenders, the White Sox and Marlins.