With the trade deadline 10 days away, Cardinals president of baseball operations John Mozeliak said he plans to meet with Nolan Arenado in the coming week (relayed by John Denton of MLB.com). That’ll be an exploratory discussion to see if the 10-time Gold Glove winner has changed his mind at all regarding a potential trade. Arenado has full no-trade rights and famously invoked that clause to kill an offseason deal that would have sent him to Houston.
Arenado reportedly wanted more time to evaluate the Astros’ direction after they’d traded Kyle Tucker. Offseason reporting suggested he was only interested in approving a deal to five clubs: the Yankees, Padres, Dodgers, Red Sox and potentially Astros once he had a better feel for their competitive outlook. Aside from Houston, none of those teams seemed to show much interest. They moved on to signing Christian Walker when Arenado didn’t immediately accept a deal.
The Red Sox, Dodgers and Padres all have established third basemen. (Max Muncy is currently on the injured list for L.A., but he’s expected back in August and the Dodgers don’t intend to trade for third base help.) While Houston did just lose Isaac Paredes to a hamstring strain, they’re within a few million dollars of the luxury tax threshold and are highly unlikely to trade for Arenado. The Yankees absolutely need a third baseman, yet Jon Heyman of The New York Post wrote earlier this month that New York’s front office is concerned about Arenado’s declining offensive output in his mid-30s. That aligns with reporting from various Yankees beat writers dating back to the offseason which downplayed the team’s interest.
If Arenado’s trade preferences are unchanged, it’s very difficult to see a deal coming together. That’d probably remain the case even if he were willing to broaden his list of destinations. His bat has declined in three consecutive seasons. Arenado took a .241/.299/.381 slash line into tonight’s game — his worst numbers in a full season since his 2013 rookie year. He is playing on a $32MM salary, $5MM of which is covered by the Rockies. He’ll make $27MM next year (again with $5MM paid by Colorado) and $15MM in 2027. In this season and next, $6MM is deferred. It’s still a significant sum for a player who looks like a league average hitter at this point, even if he remains a quality defender.
Mozeliak acknowledged that as things currently stand, he “would envision (Arenado) being a part of this in the future.” That reflects the challenges of aligning on a deal, though the front office head added that “if something were to pop up, I would definitely discuss it with him.” In any case, the Cardinals appear increasingly likely to deal some veteran pieces. They’re trying to find a taker for struggling starting pitcher Erick Fedde. Reporting last week indicated they were fielding interest on impending free agent relievers Ryan Helsley, Phil Maton and Steven Matz.
That was before they got swept by the Diamondbacks in their first series out of the All-Star Break. The NL Central looks to be a two-horse race between the Cubs and Brewers. The Cards have dropped four games behind the Padres for the final Wild Card spot with the Reds and Giants in between them. They’ve gone 4-10 this month (pending the result of tonight’s game in Colorado). After outperforming expectations for much of the season, they’re hitting a skid right as the time comes for the front office to pick a direction.
Mozeliak acknowledged the downward trend, especially the recent sweep, in sounding more amenable to selling. “Clearly the weekend was not what we wanted to see, and now we’ve got to understand what the future looks like,” he told reporters (link via Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch). “Where we are in the standings definitely affects our decision-making moving forward at the deadline. Playing those three games and losing all three is not helpful. (We) wanted to come out of the break having a positive start to it. We didn’t. As we reflect on what’s best for the organization, there is the longer view in terms of: Are there decisions that we can make that will better situate the franchise in 2026 and beyond?”
The team still has a bit of runway to pull back into the race. They should expect to win the series against the Rockies, and a sweep isn’t outlandish. They’ll then have a direct matchup with one of their top competitors, as they host the Padres for four games to close out the week. They’ll welcome the Marlins to Busch Stadium for the final three games before the deadline.
Nolan, Helsley and Fedde to Dodgers?
Don’t see why the dodgers would have any I rest in Nolan or Fedde.
Arenado and Fedde to the Padres. Nolan can play left field and Fedde can Fedde.
:p
The Dodgers don’t need them, and the Padres can’t afford them!!!
Which is why I recommend them to the Padres front office. You never know with AJ
Bird – I think you missed the big part in the article that said Muncy is expected to return soon and the Dodgers have no interest in finding another 3B.
I wonder if Houston would reconsider Arenado if it becomes increasingly likely Paredes will be out for a long time?
More importantly, would Arenado accept a trade to Houston? He turned down a trade there last year, would he change his mind with some chance to get a ring THIS year?
More importantly would Houston want to trade for a guy with a sub .300 obp, they wouldn’t. Not at 32 million a year
Charlie – At the time, which was during last ST, it was believed he turned it down because he was looking for additional financial incentive to approve and he believed the Red Sox would have been a better fit. Make no mistake, if the Sox didn’t sign Bregman then Arenado would be in Boston right now. And that would have been a bad thing for the Sox.
While the Astris will be aggressive in trade discussions, they will not pursue Arenado again.
Get ready to speak New York buddy
Fuggedaboutit!
If you have a no trade it means no trade.
It’s that simple and unless the cba entices the player Va his new team/old ownership why would anyone take less/differed money on a chance vs financial security as a .240 hitter in his 30s?
Huh? A NTC to some (most?) players just means they retain the “power” on choosing where to go, and usually with a provisional bonus attached. In exceedingly rare circumstances (J-Ram?) does a NTC mean the player doesn’t want to be traded at all.
Arenado has listed the Yankees, Dodgers, Padres, Detroit, and Red Sox as possibilities. And his preferences can certainly change since the clock is running and he might have a chance at a ring THIS season.
None of those teams would be interested in Arenado.
Yankees need a third baseman and Nado’s glove is still Gold Glove caliber.
Agreed!!!
The Yankees already have a good defensive third baseman that can’t hit. And he’s making league minimum.
Charlie – Sorry but no, it’s not.
Arenado is 7th in DRS and 6th in OAA & Range.
He’s still solid, but not in the GG discussion.
IMO, Arenado is much better. More expensive for sure, but they need to ensure a playoff slot at this point.
Well we saw how Devers meeting went with Henry/breslow. Have you seen Melvin’s comments on the urgency to have him play 1b. It’s comical stuff.
In a world where no means no, no trade clauses are maybes?
Arrenado just ain’t that guy but his contract affords him that option yo act like this. Absolutely
I think a deal could be made with the Yankees. Nolan(a bunch of money), helsley,romero and Burleson for schmidt(who is out awhile) and dominguez.
Personally I was thinking Miguel Andujar, Clint Frazier, and Gary Sanchez for Nolan.
Jokes aside… Nolan is washed, he’s gonna be the next Josh Donaldson if he ends up in NY. Yanks do love their expensive regressing old guys tho.
Domingo German too.
Why would the Yankees want his salary at his age? Let the Cadinals keep him.
@bighiggy. LOL
New York is the only team I see him possibly going to. Dodgers, Houston, and Padres are wild cards
@bighiggy Unbiased fan translation “Cardinals, give the Yankees your 4 best players & pay most of Arenado’s contract and will give you Jasson Dominguez (who we don’t want) and Clarke Schmidt who you will be lucky to have back in almost 2 years time”
Arenado is not having a good year. The Yankees do need 3b help and they tend to like older players. But he has negative trade value as is. I dont see a deal coming together.
The only value would be to the Yankees if Manfred could get the Cards to gift him to the Yankees like in 2021 when the Yankees acquired Anthony Rizzo, Joey Gallo, and Joely Rodriguez. $8.6 million worth of salary all paid for by the trading teams
You consider Joey Gallo to be a gift? I’m glad we don’t exchange Christmas presents. Not to mention Joely Rodriguez wasn’t exactly tearing it up for Texas when the Yankees got him an it would be nice to have Josh Smith about right now.
Arenado has become Evan Longoria when he was in SF. League average and dropping. He’s been in decline for several years now, and maybe that’s a function of being too comfortable in STL. Regardless, it’s hard to imagine Mozeliak finding a trade partner.
Yeah he basically is Longoria at this point. And thats ok. Not all 3b age well and hes still playing decent just not worth his salary.
Just get it done Mo. Do one thing right. GET IT DONE!
Why would you want him gone?
Why would they want to keep him? He’s 34, his numbers have dwindled every year since 2022 to the point where he has a sub-.700 OPS, and is still owed $32 million over the next 2 seasons.
The money is a non issue because its already spent. If they trade him they will have to eat salary. And he still plays good defense hes not a bum just overpaid and getting old.
Finally agree with you on something. Trading him NOW doesn’t make a lot of sense and would certainly include eating salary with little to no return. Honestly, I don’t even think Arenado wants to leave.
Nolan is not having a bad year. He’s just not having a great year. ’25 is definitely better than ’23 and ’24. Take a dive into his stats, his walk rate is up. His s/o is down, even his defense is better this year compared to the last few. Just sayin’!!
@davidrocholl Yes, but his OPS, wOBA, and wRC+ are also down, his xwOBA is below .300, and his barrel rate and exit velocity are both under the 15th percentile. It’s not like his walk rate is up that much, from 6.8% to only 7.2%. In 600 plate appearances, that’s the difference between like 40-41 walks and 43 walks.
Pretty easy to see why you’d want to move him. He’s in decline and you can shed some money. They’ll be eating money but you can shift Donovan to 3B and clear the way for Weatherholtz. A player who will actually contribute to the next good Cardinals team.
The Cards really messed up holding onto Helsley. He would’ve went for a solid return in March. They’ll certainly get less now.
Who cares about cutting payroll? And Donovan doesnt really belong at 3b. Wetherholt will be playing 2b soon thata for sure.
The Cardinals are having a decent year. They didnt mess anything up.
I have nothing against Arenado. And you are correct in the fact that the Cardinals will have to eat most of the money left on the contract so the financial savings are negligible.
I want Mo to trade him because he is not going to help the Cardinals get back to the playoffs and he is blocking the players who might be able to help them. The Cardinals currently have more position players than positions to play them and Wetherholt is coming on fast.
If Mo can’t trade Arenado, then the next move is to trade Donovan, Nootbaar, or both. I HATE saying that. But they have limited team control so they are at point where you either extend them or trade them. Noot hasn’t earned an extension and if Arenado is playing 3rd and Wetherholt is playing 2B, then Donny is playing LF where he is less valuable, and the outfield is too crowded. Somebody has to go. I would MUCH rather trade Arenado or Contreras or both, but none of that seems likely.
Areando is blocking NOBODY
Sagfese is unproven and 3b is not his best position.
Gorman doesnt belong at 3b
Donovan doesnt belong at 3b
Wetherholt is going to be playing 2b everyday. Soon.
I think trading Nootbaar makes sense. And I wouldn’t be against trading Donovan if its for a good return. Arenado needs to stay.
Ok so if Donovan doesn’t play 2B then what? You’re trading him?
I think dealing Nootbaar makes more sense but the situation is fluid. Wetherholt will be the everyday 2b by next July at the absolute latest I am sure of that. Someone has to go.
Like I said, trade him or extend him. But he is at peak trade value right now. The team is going nowhere this season and only ownership knows how committed they are to next season. If the DeWitts are going to pout about lowered attendance and not invest next year, they should trade Donovan now. I don’t like it. It’s just the best utilization of assets.
Donovan can help the team win this year, 2026 and 2027. The team is decent as it is. With the Mikolas, Matz and Fedde money spent better next year the team can be even better. No reason to trade your best player. I wouldn’t mind seeing Nootbaar traded because I think Chruch deserves a chance. But Donovan can play everywhere hes really valuable.
Son of a b****!!!!!! Just get rid of Fedde!!!! I don’t care what else happens. We traded Tommy Freakin Edman for this loser! Mo can’t go soon enough.
Matz to Mets where he’ll be a starter again then tjs. Full circle!
Can definitely see Nolan in pinstripes. Cards can have Peraza, Efforts and Carrasco. We’ll even throw in Escarra as icing on the cake!
I’ll bite. Who is the back up catcher if JCE gets traded?
Yankee fans want everyone in pinstripes. Cost no object. As soon as things turn sour, they complain and say to drop the guy.
Unless cardinals willing to eat more salary , unlikely to get more than mid level prospects at best .
Your not getting mid level prospects if your not beating any money. You’re probably getting a rostered player like a Stroman whose contract expires after this season because Nolan value is negative and not worth a mid level prospect.
He is owed $32 million between 2026 and 2027. Would probably have to eat a large chunk of that to even get a mid-level prospect.
It doesn’t seem realistic that with 10 days to go they would just now start discussing no trade preferences with him, more like now is when he needs to inform them of his decision. It feels to late start to contemplate them with himself and his family.
Nolan’s preferences can change day-to-day as the playoff standings change every day leading to the deadline. If he has a chance to get a ring THIS year, his list of acceptable trade partners might expand.
I posted on the other thread regarding Fedde a trade idea and was wondering how many yankee fans say yes and how many cards fans say yes.
Here it is:
Cards send :
Arenado and his 50m left
Donovan free agent 2028
Fedde
Matz
Yanks send:
Jazz Chisholm free agent 2027
Jorbit Vivas
Everson Pereira
Clayton Beeter
Stroman free agent after season to offset some money
What in the world is that awful smell….
Why would the Cardinals pay for Arenado to play for the Yankees? And give up Donovan too for a guy in Chisholm that likely would be a clubhouse problem, Stroman who is a clubhouse problem and some crap prospects?
That’s gonna be a “no”, dawg, like from any breathing person.
I have no horse in this race. But there’s no way the Yankees would make that trade.
If jazz gets traded, who’s stealing signs next?
Just out of curiosity, Why would the Yankees trade Chisholm? They love him there. This makes no sense for either side. Maybe in your fantasy baseball league though someone would do this deal
Lol no. Let’s review. The cards are not going to eat all of arenado’s money AND send Donovan for this package of 2nd tier 40 man depth in jorbit beeter and Everson plus guys with little control. Plus I have to think the yanks have some wariness about nado turning into josh Donaldson 2: electric Boogaloo. Jazz has skills Donovan doesn’t chiefly power (and swag lol) and I don’t see Donovan as being uniquely appealing enough to swap jazz out for him. Fedde has been bad enough to dfa and stroman has been good since coming off the IL so it’s literally a downgrade in an area of need for NY. Matz is ok but pricey for a lefty reliever. This makes no sense for either side.
Why care about anything Johnny Mo wants or thinks, he’s not going to be here.
Just smile and say nope, not going anywhere Johnny MO,
you promise me Pitching Pitching Pitching if I would come here. In your face Johnny MO in your face.
Arenado kinda sucks and is being paid a ton.
Yankees will rather trade for McMahon or Eugenio.
I think the Yankees will trade for Suarez and Detroit will ask about Arenado. I still think he might stay though.
I hope the Yankees trade for McMahon. The guy can’t hit in Colorado. What do you think he does in NY.
I’m so over Mo!! Why in the hell would he tell the press, before talking to Nando?
Probably just for show like a PR move. This makes it look like he tried either way but Nado can still say no. If he says yes to certain teams, that ignites the stove.
Could’ve tried replacing him, then ask him to give up fielding, then ask him to be a 1b mid season, then use the media to bad mouth him as a clubhouse cancer, and then the Giants would want him.
It does not make sense for the Cards to trade Arenado unless he wants out. He isn’t owed all that much the rest of this season and a fair chunk of the next two seasons salary is deferred. He is still solid defensively and neither Gorman nor Walker are having seasons that indicate they would produce any better. Eating a bunch of remaining salary for at best a lottery ticket just does not make sense. Why pay him to play someplace else? Just keep him and his nearly 60 career WAR and if he retires at the end of the contract hand him a red jacket and maybe just maybe he dons a red hat in Cooperstown instead of one with purple letters if he gets the call. If the Cards are selling then sell the closer to peak value guys. That isn’t many on the team this year unfortunately. Honestly it is a wonder they are only a few games out of the wild card considering the stats most of the team is carrying on the season.
IF he were to make it into the hall of fame, even finishing out this contract in St. Louis, he still likely goes in as a Rockie. He had more of his best years there. Sure. He had a couple years in St. Louis that were among his best. But a larger portion of them were from Colorado.
You may be right. Two third place finishes in MVP voting, one with each team. Most of his counting stats came in CO. Most of his milestone numbers will be in STL. The only thing that would have sealed the deal for STL would have been a WS appearance. It is currently a toss up that leans toward CO.
Arenado’s greatest strength has been his defense. Eight of those ten gold gloves were received in Colorado. Arenado goes into the HOF with a Rockies hat if he goes in at all. I do believe he will go in.
Agree. Hold onto him. Love watching him play D. No chance on the red jacket. Hopefully Mo does nothing and just fades to black.
Arenado is a beautiful example of why you DO NOT GIVE PLAYERS A STUPID MONEY CONTRACT!
They do get old.
Stupid money for a lot of years contracts are, well, stupid.
And, unfortunately, they seem to be the new standard
The bigger example is the Cardinals GM, actually, Arenado couldn’t have had a huge amount of money spawn or given to him by forcing the team hostage. Someone in the front office was actually willing to give the money to him. Don’t hate the player, son
The contract was appropriate. There are many, many worse contracts out there.
If the Yankees were really looking into Kebryan Hayes, I dont get why they are out on NA regardless of money. If the Cardinals were to pay down his salary to Hayesish money, id easily prefer Nolan.
Neither are likely to help much at the plate, but at least Arrenado has a slight chance to let it rip for a series in October ala Donny Baseball.
He should be happy if somebody wants him.
Arenado is running an 89 wrc+ after 102 last year, the Trend is clearly moving down, age and back issues are getting to him and he doesn’t seem to bounce back.
If he gets traded the prospect return is small and cards still have to pay down part of the salary
This saga has gone on WAY too long. It’s time for both sides to either defecate or get off the pot.
Cardinals are in it this season. They need a front line starter and a DH. Herrera had to plug the hole at catcher.
JJ Weatherholt is ready and can hit MLB pitching, they could, Granillo should get another opportunity in the bullpen.
I don’t know why they would trade Arenado and Fedde is depth for the rotation.
I’m a fan, but it seems pretty clear this team isn’t built for postseason success this year. Getting a wildcard spot shouldn’t be the goal if it lessens the progress the team has been making. Time to cut bait, bring up JJ, and make other moves that set the team up for ’26.
They can get better results with someone in AAA or even Henderson in AA at this point. Fedde needs a change of scenery. Not that anyone is desperate enough for him.
It’s become clear that Herrera is a liability as a catcher. He’s someone’s 1B/DH in the future. That future isn’t likely to be with the Cardinals.
@57
Herrera is the best hitter on the team and the only hitter who slugs. Top of the list of things this team needs is cheap slug and Herrera fits that role. He’s taking reps in the OF and has been great as a DH.
He plays hard, he’s cheap, and he’s a good athlete. He’s not going anywhere any time soon.
Herrera is the best hitter the Cardinals have, I’m not sure I can see them moving him at all.
Remove April and Contreras is the Cardinals best hitter. Herrera is a very good hitter. His stats are currently skewed by a Barry Bonds like April. Contreras stats are skewed by an abysmal April.
I don’t see Herrara as an outfielder. The Cardinals don’t like a full time DH, so Herrera doesn’t have a clear place on the roster. He is a valuable trade piece. I believe a team could get Herrera in a trade by offering a proven controllable outfielder or pitching. Another team might give him a look at first base. The Cardinals have Contreras at first for the foreseeable future.
Cherry-pick stats as much as you would like, but let’s just agree to disagree. We’ll see who’s right sooner than later.
The stats aren’t skewed that much by the 21 ABs Herrera had in April. He outperformed Contreras in May as well. I guess you could be right, but I think the organization is going to want to hold on to Herrera for the time being. His potential as a hitter is far greater than an ageing Contreras, but I don’t think they need to make a decision between one or the other.
Yet half of his home runs came in those 21 ABs. It’s the very definition of skewed. He hasn’t slugged over 500 in any month since then. He hit well in May and June. That’s not enough to declare him the best hitter on the team in my opinion. I’ll need more of a track record when the league has had time to study him.
Donovan is clearly the best hitter on the team and that’s not all that impressive. But Herrera and Cabrera are the most feared hitters for sure. More likely to get a Hr from Herrera but more likely to get a strong AB from Contreras. Contreras just doesn’t seem to do the damage in pressure situations though.
Arenado and Fedde to the NY Mets.
Book it.
I like Arenado to the Mets for a lottery ticket, but the Cards will have to send $10 million or so to get it done. The Mets have the greatest need at third of all the contenders. I also think Arenado would hit a little better in that lineup.
Nado’s glove still plays and he has very little protection in the order in STL, so he should do better as a role-playing bat in a different lineup.
Kick in some money and move forward, Cards. But the Cards still need a 3B who can hit/slug…and that’s not in our system, currently, and it’s hard hard hard to find.
The Cardinals are in purgatory. You have a lame duck GM who won’t get out of the way for Bloom to take over. Arenado and Mikolas bloated contracts. Fedde no value and Gray no trade clause. They have a small core they can start to build around in Winn, Herrera, Scott, Walker and Libertore. Everyone else should be available and the you might get good returns on Donovan.and rebuild some of the farm with Burleson, Nootbar and Gorman.
That’s a pretty pathetic “core” that will get you a lot of last place finishes. Everyone should be available. The problem is no one wants their garbage. Beside a couple bullpen high leverage bullpen arms there isn’t anything in entire organization that gets anyone excited besides one or two guys. Those one or two guys they won’t trade out of fear the return won’t be as good as what they sending away. It’s just a very badly run organization. Hopefully the DeWitts are taking the Busch route and tanking the team with Bloom to get the liabilities of the books so they can sell. But that’s just a fantasy. Arby’s will continue owning the franchise from Cincinnati for a little while longer.
Arenado, best days are long gone. Who needs a 240 hitter with back problems?
who needs Gorman ? who at a young age has back problems and Noot who is injury prone
I am all for a trade with the Yankees and we should do whatever we have to do to make this happen with the target being Spencer Jones. Obviously Arenado won’t move the needle enough to get it done but will 20 million plus Helsley Matz and say choice of outfielder with say Beeter coming back with Jones? Thoughts?
I think Jones has hit himself into a long term extension with the Yankees.
How about trading the two delicate wall flowers? Gorman and Nootbar can’t stay healthy at their current age, why would we think they can stay healthy long term. Trade them while they have some value, and include Walker in the deal
Gorman has almost no trade value (at this point), but still has minor league options. Nootbarr has been mostly healthy this year, but may be on the trade block. Just not sure the Cards are (or should be) all in on Burleson as an everyday outfielder.
Good times 🙂
All the guys with NTCs are jerks. They claim they love it here. Yet, they are vey aware they aren’t going anywhere and staying here hurts the long term outlook of the team.
But from the players perspective why would they want to leave? They are overpaid, the cost of living is pennies on the dollar compare to other cities and there is zero pressure to win from the front office and most of the fan base. Why would they want to go somewhere else and play with stress and expectations?
And before i get told the fans expect winners, if you believe the Cardinals are a playoff team and are in a good spot overall, I am talking about you.
I don’t blame the players, they were likely sold a certain set of expectations to sign here and I don’t think the organization delivered. No sense in helping them out by leaving!
Exactly! There are well aware of the “right” thing to do. They probably know the best chance to get a ring is to be traded. But it’s like they all colluded together to tell the organization to go F themselves and they will just have to wait to try and fix things after they are all gone.
TBF, they’re all later in their career and having the peace of mind they won’t have to uproot their family is probably worth more than people consider. Considering Arenado in particular, he likes the STL area for some reason and has ties beyond baseball. Like you mentioned, why take a pay cut for higher stress and expectations of a place like NY? We’re sold this narrative of him wanting to compete but tbh, I don’t think he wants to leave. I guess we’ll see!
The Yankees aren’t going anywhere near Arenado. They learned their lesson with Donaldson. They would be better off with IKF whose contract is up at the end of the year.
I’ve made a significant move before the deadline: Paper Straws has been muted.
I get it. The truth can be painful.
The Yankees are concerned with Arenado’s offensive production? They didn’t seem to care about offensive production when they ran the clown squad out to 3B these past couple years.
The question for the Yankees is, is Arenado a better option than those other clowns or is it at best a lateral move for more money? Will Arenado sell jerseys in another city? For the Yankees, probably. He would fit really well in Houston and the Crawford boxes will make his bat look a lot better. He should be asking Mo to get him there.
Nooooo. Don’t trade Arenado.
This is a big departure from the offseason, when Mozeliak admitted he had not spoken to Arenado about his preferred trade destinations, then was surprised when Arenado said no to Houston, even though they weren’t on his publicly disclosed list.
I think a lot of folks are underestimating Arenado. He’s still a player, albeit an expensive player.
The question that needs to be asked is why are all these players with no trade clauses banding together in solidarity to not waive them? What professional athlete doesn’t want a legit shot at a ring, especially the guys nearing the end of their careers. It doesn’t make sense. And if they don’t care about a championship, they shouldn’t be here anyway.
One of them? Ok. I could understand that. But all of them? There is more to that m, that needs to be uncovered.