The Reds announced their two-year extension with manager Dusty Baker, tweets SI's Jon Heyman. Baker's likely deal was first reported by Hal McCoy of the Dayton Daily News on September 30th.
The Reds initially hired Baker with a three-year, $10.5MM deal back in '07. The Reds finished under .500 in '08 and '09 but won the NL Central this year.
So now the long term futures of the Reds pitchers are doomed?
You got your spring training gear yet Wainwrights_Meatball?
really? One year and you pull out this? stay classy
I wouldn’t be too worried. When the Reds suck again because Volquez, Cueto, and Leake all have serious arm issues due to Dusty working them like slaves, the “Reds fans” will go back into hiding again. Let them have their fun.
Again, how does he “work them like slaves” or how has he done it within the past 3 years? They actually limited Leake’s innings pitched this year and shut him down.
If you’re going to make a comment, at least be logical when doing it.
Cardinals fans are a bunch of idiots who can’t think for themselves. It’s pretty pathetic that you just say stuff because Cubs fans say it. Do some research Meatball. Wood was always injury plagued. Go follow your managers lead and cry in your hands. You guys whine and whine about everything. Biggest bunch of babies in sports. “The balls are too slick!” and “it’s raining too hard!” Waahh Waahh! Play the game and stop complaining babies.
Umm Carpenter isn’t getting any younger, Pujols will be Pujols, and the rest of the lineup will have to umm….PRODUCE!! The Cards aren’t exactly a run away with the division for next year IMO. Besides the Reds are a younger (pitching and hitting) team and will be fine.
I’ll let you Cards fans have your fun if Albert leaves.
He has been with the Reds for 3 years already, so the myth about him destroying young arms should be thrown aside. He hasn’t done that at all in Cincinnati.
He’s perfectly fine, and he deserves the extension.
Agreed. He had some bad luck with the Cubs young staff. Mark Prior would have never been able to stay healthy if he put him at a 50 inning limit. Wood has had to move to the bullpen because he could never stay healthy. Dusty was just the easy one to blaim. Him and Jocketty have done a fine job building this Reds team.
“He hasn’t done that at all in Cincinnati.”
May 25, 2008, Baker had Harang throw four innings (63 pitches) in an extra inning game on two days’ rest. As a result, Harang pitched three times in eight days, and has been terrible ever since.
He may indeed deserve the extension, but I take issue with your revisionist history.
So for 3 years he has control and consistency problems as a result of that relief appearance? I keep hearing this same excuse from people on here, and I just have a hard time believing it.
He had an elbow injury from hitting his arm in the shower, an appendectomy, and and ankle problem this year. All different injuries…so all of them are Dusty Baker’s fault?
The legitimacy of this argument is about as solid as a mashed potato rocking chair. I’m not saying Dusty wasn’t dumb for making that decision, I am just saying he can’t be totally blamed. One 4-inning appearance 3 years prior DOES NOT explain or account for control and consistency problems. Even Edison Volquez has since gone down and recovered from Tommy John surgery within the time frame.
In 2008, his ERA was 3.50 and his WHIP was 1.22 before the extra-inning fiasco by Dusty. Afterward, he was so bad that his ERA rose to 4.78 and his WHIP rose to 1.38, and then his season ended by going on the DL with a forearm strain.You are the one setting up the mashed potato rocking chair. Yes, Harang had several other injuries since then. But his performance the rest of that season, BEFORE the other injuries you brought up, and the subsequent forearm strain later that season are clear indicators that SOMETHING happened to him because of Dusty using a starter 3 times in 8 days.Perhaps you are a pitcher or a pitching coach or have some insight into pitching mechanics. But if not, I am extremely skeptical of the validity of your statement “one 4-inning appearance 3 years prior DOES NOT explain or account for control and consistency problems.” Now that’s a statement I have a hard time believing. A pitcher trying to throw a ball as fast as he can AND locate it precisely can’t be affected by a lingering forearm strain incurred because of overuse? The fact that one of your pitchers (Volquez) successfully came back from Tommy John surgery has no relevance for a discussion of a different pitcher with a different injury.
The “subsequent forearm strain” was him hitting his arm in the shower. He even told this to the press and said it had NOTHING to do with Dusty sticking him into that game.
I’m not totally sure you’re understanding what I’m saying, so I’ll elaborate a bit more. The Reds, like any other ball club, have a staff of trainers, orthopedic surgeons, and doctors on staff. If Harang wasn’t the healthy by just a TINY fraction, he would be sit down and put on the DL. We saw that with his ankle injury this year, after he bumped his arm in 2008, and then when he had his appendix removed.
The point you are trying to make is that he has “lingering forearm issues,” that of which he does not. He went out yesterday with a blister. Is that because Dusty started him 3 years ago?
I understand where you are coming from with the statistics, but the fact of the matter is that after 3 years and no “nagging injuries” that people keep throwing the blame towards, his control, placement, and consistency should have improved. As previously mentioned, if he was injured, he would be out of the game and on the DL…period. No one would put themselves through 3 years of pain of nagging injuries WITHOUT some sort of surgery in the off-season. It just doesn’t happen.
Edison Volquez has went down and recovered from Tommy John Surgery and found his control, placement, and consistency all within that time frame whilst Harang has not. It has plenty of relevance whilst pointing out that it’s not an injury problem, but a mental and mechanics problem. As the author of this article wrote, Harang throws 90-92 and is fly-ball prone. Throw off his control and consistency by the SLIGHTEST and you’ll see the Harang we see today.
Good move – don’t worry about pitchers – he had to deal with the Cub babies
Apparently in San Fran, he ruined Jason Schmidt and Russ Ortiz’s arms too. Or at least this is what I keep hearing from some naysayers around here. I’ve never been high on Dusty Baker myself because I’ve seen him make some real boneheaded moves, but he’s done really well this year, and sending the Reds to the playoffs for the first time in 15 years deserves the extension he is getting.
And unlike the Cubbies…the Reds have been the World Series quite a few times in the past 100 years.
I agree with everything you said; I just want to add to the list of pitchers he ruined Rob Nen. Baker effectively ended Nen’s career by the way he overused him in the World Series and that came straight from Nen & his teammates in interviews since. I am a Giants fan, live in Ohio, and hope Baker continues to do well in Cincinnati, but one can’t ignore his history of handling of pitchers in Chicago and SF. I truly hope he’s learned from his past mistakes and it doesn’t happen to the Reds. Best of luck in the playoffs.
Dusty haters have brain rot.
Dusty baker once said “”Their on-base percentages are higher than some of the guys who are hitting. I know they can hit, but it also helps to get on base and put a pitcher in the stretch. That’s the thing. Most starters don’t like being in the stretch.”
Yes Dusty, the only advantage to being on base is that it forces the pitcher to throw out of the stretch. As a Cardinals fan, I am very, very happy for this development.
I’d take Dusty over LaRussa. Hell, I’d take a dead armadillo over LaRussa.
The last line of your argument totally discredited anything you wrote.
Hey…I have an idea….let’s sit Colby Rasmus and other young players and play Aaron Miles and Pedro Feliz!!!
“and other young players” why don’t you just say ” I’ve read people say Larussa was playing the wrong guys” I would like to know who the “other young players” are….Freese? he was hurt Ryan? he is horrible Schumaker? equal to Ryan without the defense Lopez? Haven’t seen a worse combination of just being flat out bad and having a bad attitude in quite awhile. And maybe you should look at Aaron Miles and Pedro Feliz numbers before you are so quick to mouth. While I am no fan of either and hope both are gone next year, both actually played quite well in their time in St. Louis.
So you don’t have anyone in the farm system that should be given a shot? Ruben Gotay had a pretty good year in Triple-A…not worth the promotion because of Pedro Feliz, though?
I don’t want to hear anything about Dusty Baker being bad from a Cardinals fan, when LaRussa is just as bad — ie. Mark Mulder with arm problems, Chris Carpenter and Tommy John surgery, and his knack for playing past-their-prime veterans over any of the younger players in the organization.
The pot calling the kettle black. Get over it.
I actually said above that Baker was just the easy target for the pitching problems and I don’t think it was his fault. The only time Rasmus missed many at bats he was hurt, same with Ludwick(when he was with the team) Every team has had pitchers with arm troubles. Carpenter’s started before he was ever signed by the Cardinals so I have no clue how that would go on TLR. Mulder was just a bad case, he was a work horse with Oakland and never had any troubles, it caught up with him and his career is pretty much over. No, there is no one in the farm system ready to man the infield everyday, I wish there was, but no. I am ready for TLR to move on, I wasn’t mouthing Baker, just pointing out that your post had nothing to it.
It was from my understanding that Rasmus missed a lot of time because LaRussa didn’t like him not taking the ball to all parts of the field. I understand that, but you don’t sit a dude because of it. Let him play through it and work with him to get better at it and you’ll see the improvement.
But then trading away Ludwick for Westbrook? The Cards didn’t need the pitching….they needed sticks in the lineup. Trading away Ludwick definitely didn’t help their cause.
The Cardinals HAD to have pitching. I’m not saying that trading Ludwick was good, that can be discussed. But throwing Walters and Suppan was horrible. At the time of the trade the Cardinals were somewhere around 20 games over .500 when the top 3 took the mound( Waino, Carp, garcia) and around 12 games under when anyone else took the mound. To me, that screams needing a pitcher, I’m not saying they made the right move, but keeping Ludwick and not getting Westrbook does not put this team in the playoffs.
John Jay is good, don’t get me wrong. And I am not saying that trading Ludwick didn’t need to be done to get a good quality pitcher, because it did. But Jake Westbrook? This is a guy that was considering retirement almost a year ago!
Just saying it wasn’t done in the right fashion, and you should’ve gotten more for Ludwick.
Ludwick is getting expensive and probably wouldn’t have fit into next years payroll. Maybe the Padres non-tender him. I see what your saying, that’s why I’m not saying it was a good move. But at the same time the Cardinals are working to re-build the farm system. This was their way of getting the pitcher they thought they needed, while not surrendering any more prospects. That’s why I don’t think it was a horrible move, but I don’t think it was a great move either. Remember Ludwick had missed significant time before he was traded. He wasn’t a huge factor in getting them to where they were at the time, I’m sure they thought they could continue without him.
Reds fans, stop being so defensive. Baker has managed the Reds well and his success warrants his extension. Still, he does put a lot of strain on his starting pitchers (Harang, Schmidt, Ortiz, Wood, Prior, etc.). Maybe its not cause and effect and maybe he’s been better with the arms in Cincinnatti. Remember, Joe Torre also destroys arms (though his are bullpen arms) and he is still seen as a very good manager.
Honestly speaking. Go back thru history and see the workload that many of the pitchers pitched back then. Even look at a couple of relievers who pitched more than 1 innings in an appearance. The idea that Dusty wore his pitchers in the ground is a little silly. I’m sure you can find examples of pitchers with similar time and career workloads who folded. Maybe there’s something to their preperation or training but it’s too simplistic to point a finger and say “He’s the bad guy”. Hate for being a bad strategist or for not using some current evaluation tools if you want but saying he wears his arms out is silly. Look at all starting staffs prior to 1980.
Every club has to deal with injured pitchers. Every one of them. Throwing a ball overhand at 90+ miles an hour is an unnatural act. Pitching causes pitching injuries; the pitchers that never get injured are the freaks, exceptions, lucky or blessed with good genes. Because almost all of them at some point miss time to injuries. No matter who their manager or pitching coach is, which organization they’re in doesn’t make much difference. A big chunk of DL time is filled with pitchers.Cincinnati kept most of their pitching staff relatively healthy this year. The only pitcher I think they overused was Arthur Rhodes. And he’s the kind of guy who says, “Give me the damn ball!” and he’s 40 years old. Probably the one guy you might as well give the ball to. Until someone comes up with the exact protocol for keeping pitchers injury free, you should point the finger at everyone or at no one.
I’m not going to blame Dusty.