Joel Sherman of the New York Post dishes out the latest Yankees buzz in a series of articles…
- Sherman notes that Diamondbacks GM Kevin Towers has knowledge of the Yankees farm system after working for the team last year, which makes a Justin Upton match intriguing. However, Sherman feels that the Yankees would get involved most likely if Cliff Lee signs elsewhere and they look to trade an outfielder for a starter. Teams have inquired on Nick Swisher, Curtis Granderson, and Brett Gardner, notes Sherman.
- Executives Sherman spoke to continue to express the opinion that the Yankees will land Lee.
- The Yanks are also working hard to find a setup man, calling on about a dozen free agents including Pedro Feliciano. They've checked in on Rafael Soriano "as a fallback position in the incredibly small likelihood that Mariano Rivera does not re-sign." Sherman says to forget the idea of Soriano signing as Rivera's setup man and closer-in-waiting. Neither side is interested in that scenario.
- Sherman analyzes the Derek Jeter situation, which he feels could become "one of the most interesting games of contract chicken in history." The main sticking point seems to be the number of years.
Montero, Gardner, Betances for Upton?
wow really? stop drinking before posting.
umm ok great insight there champ..
You do realize that Upton is one of the most valuable players in the league, only 23 years old and a pretty much sure thing…
where as montero, betances are just chances, and gardner is a question mark. .
No need to overreact like that little man
“gardner is a question mark” … really?
at 27 Garnder has career averages of .268/.358/.367
at 23 Upton has career averages of .272/.352/.471 (with a considerable amount of more PA)
my point here, i guess, is that Gardner has one good season under his belt at 27, while Upton has 4 good seasons under his belt at 23….
put Upton in the 9th spot on the Yankees and see the kind of pitches he sees – his OBP will go up, and his power will too.
Upton doesn’t have 4 good seasons, he’s played 4 seasons. And of the 4, only 2 of them were good.Gardner’s WAR last year has been better than Upton’s WAR the past 2 seasons combinedWith the lineup the Yankees have, Gardner is way more important for them than Upton. As I said, nothing against Upton, but power is not needed in the Yankees lineup.
Although I’d love to see Upton roaming in the Yankee OF for the next several years, sending Montero/Betances/Garnder simply isn’t worth it. The production those 3 players will provide would greatly outweight anything brought back by Upton; hence its an uneven trade.
Also the fact that Upton is “only 23 with a team friendly contract” is an entirely useless point; Montero is 21 Betances is 22 and Gardner/Montero/Betances all have much more “team friendly contracts”.
No way Cashman makes a move here, its just a case of him picking up the phone and calling Towers when he hears that a 23 yr old All Star CF is available.
I agree.
You pay a premium when you trade prospects… because prospects aren’t sure things..Montero’s bat could easily not translate to the bigs, and betances could end up in relief duty.. thats why you have to pay more… I’m sure Angel fans were once screaming to not trade brandon wood because he’s going to be so awesome, and baseball american ranked him a heck of a lot higher then they’ve ever rated montero or betances.. but prospects are what they are, sometimes then end up like hanley ramirez and sometimes they end up like the crap that the phillies got when they traded lee. its a chance.
Although I’d love to see Upton roaming in the Yankee OF for the next several years, sending Montero/Betances/Garnder simply isn’t worth it. The production those 3 players will provide would greatly outweight anything brought back by Upton; hence its an uneven trade.
Also the fact that Upton is “only 23 with a team friendly contract” is an entirely useless point; Montero is 21 Betances is 22 and Gardner/Montero/Betances all have much more “team friendly contracts”.
No way Cashman makes a move here, its just a case of him picking up the phone and calling Towers when he hears that a 23 yr old All Star CF is available.
in 09 Zobrist has the 3rd highest WAR in the league, higher then Chase Utley…
So to you if the Rays were offered Utley for Zobrist you wouldnt do it.. because of WAR right?
All depends on the team and lineup there is. Since the Yankees have one of the best 2B in the game, why the hell woudl they need Utley? Whereas Zobrist can practically play every position on the field, I’d take Zobrist (IN THE YANKEES LINEUP) over Utley. Whereas for any average or below average offensive team, I’d take Utley in the lineup.
So he had one good year and all of a sudden he’s an mvp candidate ? give me a break
I’m not saying he’s not good, but he’s no sure thing.
He questioned what you wrote, nowhere did he, or I previously, say he’s an MVP candidate.
yah thanks, I’m merely just pointing out that HE HAD ONE GOOD YEAR. and people are treating him like derek friggin jeter.
Yes he’s had 1 good year, in his first full year. Whereas he only played 60 games and 104 games before. Upton has had TWO GOOD YEARS (typing in caps because you just did), in 4 years. And his numbers were way worse this year than last year. Anything can happen in the future, Gardner may do worse, Gardner may stay the same. Upton may stay the same, Upton may get better.
The D Backs need arms and a young big bat. The Yankees have several arms, the one big bat would be Montero. I would work the deal like this. Joba Chamerlain, Jesus Montero, Curtis Granderson, and Andrew Brackman for Justin Upton. D Backs get a young corner stone outfielder who can play at the big league level like Justin Upton. They get Jesus Montero who can play first base or catch who is going to hit at the big leauge level. And they Joba Chamberlain with a change of scenery would be a dynamic pitcher once again in either the pen or in the rotation. And you get Brackman who is a west coast guy.
The positive for the Yankees would be simple your acquiring a 23 year old outfielder who has a ton of upside. Reminds me of the Delmon Young deal but better because Upton has a lot more upside than Young. This guy fits as a strong right handed bat in a left handed lineup. Hee is young and athletic, the Yankees can always use more of that. And this guy is 23! The Yankees don’t even have a productive 23 year old position player in there farm system. And of course trading Montero would be tough. But there is Austin Romine, and there is Gary Sanchez who is suppose to be a stud behind the dish and a power bat. Also Jorge Posada could spend his last year behind the plate, it wouldn’t be forcing him out if you give the year to Romine as 4 day a week catcher. Montero catching takes a lot of time away from Jorge, and for good reason, don’t get me wrong. But I’m willing to stick with my five time world series catcher for one more season, if it brings in a young talented outfieldler like Justin Upton.
Another move I’d make would be maybe getting Gordon Beckham. He wouldn’t cost nearly as much as Upton. But this is a young infielder who was a productive college player. The Yankees have benefited from the Whitesox cast offs before. Beckham in a big city like New York could be what the guy needs. Plus that ables to move A Rod to the DH spot, if anyone is willing to do it.
It’s just spitballing here. But the idea that two former top prospects are on the trading block this early in both of there careers is a red alarm. But the moves that could be capitalize by the New York Yankees.
yah thanks, I’m merely just pointing out that HE HAD ONE GOOD YEAR. and people are treating him like derek friggin jeter.
So he had one good year and all of a sudden he’s an mvp candidate ? give me a break
I’m not saying he’s not good, but he’s no sure thing.
I wouldn’t put Montero in the same league as Betances, and say hes more than just a “chance”
Has there really been that much precedence for players who couldn’t handle the major leagues after OPSing almost 1.000 in AAA at age 20?
comment removed
comment removed
They don’t need a catcher really and yes, it does seem like Montero is definitively going to be part of the Yanks organization next season. I think something more a long the lines of Brackman, Gardner, and Joba. The D-Backs need arms. No other way to look at it. The Yanks do match up well regardless. I am a bit torn on which and who I would like to see play on this team next season. I’d be ok with them moving Swisher to be honest. I’d prefer to keep Gardner. An outfield of Upton, Granderson and Gardner is just ridiculous. UZR would be off the charts and would arguably be the best outfield in the majors. It will be interesting to see where this goes considering Towers and Cashmans relationship and Towers knowledge of the Yanks farm system.
You need a top prospect going back the diamond backs way… no way it just takes brackman, gardner and joba. .. other teams would be lining up with better deals
I’m waffling, so i take it back
A joke, right? I mean I can’t discredit Upton, but he is not even remotely close to being worth those 3 players.Heck according to WAR, Gardner in 2010 and his career has been betterGardner has played exactly 300 games and has a 8.6 WAR. Upton in 422 games has a 7.7 WAR. That is a humongous difference. 122 games more played and his total WAR is almost a Win lessThat pretty much even tell me that Gardner for Upton straight up is a loss (Value wise) for the Yankees.
Hey did you know that Gardner last year had a higher WAR then Joe Maeur???
So what you’re saying is that you rather have gardner then Joe Maeur?
War is a bullshit stat, its why so many different websites have completely different WAR systems that fluctuate the numbers like you wouldnt believe
get you’re mind out the sabermetrics for a little bit and be reasonable here.
I’m not a saber guy much, but I’m just letting you know in case you were since I have no idea if you were or weren’t.
You have failed to tell us how Upton is better For The Yankees.
Trading those 3 players for Upton would almost make the Jay Buhner trade a Positive trade for the Yankees.
Again, not saying Gardner is better, but for the Yankees lineup, Gardner is needed and Upton is not.
Since you seem to like HR and RBI, Upton had 17 HR and 73 RBI. Know where that would rank in the Yankees lineup? He’d be 7th in HR and 5th in RBI.
Marcus Thames had 12 HR for the year but he had a HR in every 17.6 AB’s. Upton had a HR every 29.1 AB’s, therefore he’d be 8th in HR if Thames was a full time DH.
you keep saying gardner is better for the yankees lineup, as if you are garanteeing that Gardner can re do what he did next year?? He’s had one good year as a 27 year old . i’m not taking anything away from him.. but at the same time Upton had a starting Job at 20 years old. While upton has never gotten on base at .383 (gardners 2010 obp) he has consistently hovered over .350, .366 being his career high…Now you move him to a potent lineup, with plate protection, and he’ll easily be more valuable to the Yankees then Gardner ever could. It’s a difference of .030 obp, which is the equivalent to 15 walks, when you factor in that upton can hit 15 more homeruns, 10 more doubles and can steal the same amount of bases.. So essentially what you are saying is that the Yankees are better off with 15 more walks/singles (if gardner has another good season) then another 15 hr’s, and 10 doubles (if upton has another down season) Its pretty much a no brainer who could be more valuable to the yankees
Clearly you do not follow the Yankees if you think that Gardner and Upton steal the same amount of bases. Gardner’s 47 SB’s do not even show the difference his presence alone on the bases makes. Pitchers have to focus on him rather than their pitches and he racks up the run scored. Gardner fits the Yankee lineup very well.
that was my mistake, i didnt realize how many bases gardner swiped last year
Least you admit that, that’s why they think highly of him. If he had similar or less speed than Gardner, then I understand and you have an even stronger argument.
Least you admit that, that’s why they think highly of him. If he had similar or less speed than Gardner, then I understand and you have an even stronger argument.
same amount of SB’s??? really? how did you figure that out?
keep it down
keep it down
same amount of SB’s??? really? how did you figure that out?
Maybe if you actually understood WAR, you’d realize it is not a bullshit stat. You just have to take the stat at face value.WAR includes defense. There isn’t a valuable defensive measurement for catchers so WAR normalizes catcher defense to 0.0. Therefore the WAR you see for someone like Mauer is only his offensive WAR, where as Gardner is his Offensive WAR + his defensive WAR.It’s apples to oranges.Also, WAR is a value based stat in terms of past value, not future value. Obviously, it doesn’t take into account that Upton in the future > Gardner in the future. Was Gardner more valuable than Upton last year? Yes. Will he be in the future? No.
I understand WAR, and i still feel as if its bullshit.. I mean quickly scroll through baseball reference and then fangraphs, the fluctuation between WAR numbers are huge, there are so many variables that change from year to year, not to mention how it has a lot to do with UZR which is also a highly flawed stat.
I’ll take WAR seriously when different minds all agree on one set of parameters, in 2009 Fangraphs as Aaron Hill’s WAR at 3.9 where as baseball reference has it at 5.4…. thats 1.5 Wins over replacement difference, and by no means a rare example, all sites fluctuate to a point where limited stock can be taken in these numbers
First of all, B-R and Fangraphs use two different formulas. Even though its called the same, they are completely different statistics. B-R doesn’t even use UZR, it uses TZ instead, and that’s not the only difference.
Second of all, again, UZR tends to be accurate in large sample sizes on positions that are not 1B/C, therefore WAR does give you an accurate representation of value in large sample sizes (ie. Career WAR.) I agree you should be weary using something like Gardner’s 5.4 WAR last year to measure future performance, but to completely negate the stat’s worth is ignorant.
ignorant eh?
ok so basing entire statistics on UZR, which even with large sample sizes is so flawed, thats what? enlightened?
Just because I don’t like to post without proof
Nate McLouth had a UZR of -13.8 in 2008, then +3.6 in 2009
All coincidental.
ok so basing entire statistics on UZR, which even with large sample sizes is so flawed, thats what? enlightened?It’s not basing entire “statistics” on UZR, or whatever that means. It is a measurement of one item, which is why I said you need to take it at face value. it means what it means. No one is saying that 2011 Adrian Beltre will be better than Robbie Cano. He might be, but he also might not be. What IT IS saying is that over the course of their careers, Adrian Beltre has been worth more wins above an average replacement player. that is itIt is not the fault of the formula that people consistently misuse it.Also, when I’m talking about large sample sizes, I’m speaking about 3 or 4 year averages. That is something much of the sabr community agrees upon. You are misinterpreting it and then refuting claims that are entirely false and nonexistent. No one things UZR on a year to year basis is a good measurement. Your ignorance keeps getting exposed with every further post.
I don’t even know what you’re talking about.. When did I ever say that it can be used to determined that one player will be better..
What i’m saying is that it serves no purpose because its highly flawed, I keep giving you examples but instead you keep calling me ignorant as some sort of defense.
What exactly is the purpose of WAR, if it just tells you how a player did LAST year… Its useless and a bullshit stat that serves no purpose whats so ever. UZR is just as flawed and now every tom dick and harry uses it to defend someones defense in every other post.
What I’m saying is that Cano had a better year offensively then Beltre (just slightly) yet Beltre has a 7.1 WAR to Cano’s 6.4… major difference? because Beltre’s UZR is like 18 where as Cano’s is -.2 ….. now hmmmm why would that be? you’re a smart boy, I’m sure a pompous know it all prick can figure that one out.
Well clearly since you can’t understand how to properly apply WAR in the right context while continuing to spout the same baseless argument, there is no need for further discussion.
I don’t even know what you’re talking about.. When did I ever say that it can be used to determined that one player will be better..
What i’m saying is that it serves no purpose because its highly flawed, I keep giving you examples but instead you keep calling me ignorant as some sort of defense.
What exactly is the purpose of WAR, if it just tells you how a player did LAST year… Its useless and a bullshit stat that serves no purpose whats so ever. UZR is just as flawed and now every tom dick and harry uses it to defend someones defense in every other post.
What I’m saying is that Cano had a better year offensively then Beltre (just slightly) yet Beltre has a 7.1 WAR to Cano’s 6.4… major difference? because Beltre’s UZR is like 18 where as Cano’s is -.2 ….. now hmmmm why would that be? you’re a smart boy, I’m sure a pompous know it all prick can figure that one out.
ok so basing entire statistics on UZR, which even with large sample sizes is so flawed, thats what? enlightened?It’s not basing entire “statistics” on UZR, or whatever that means. It is a measurement of one item, which is why I said you need to take it at face value. it means what it means. No one is saying that 2011 Adrian Beltre will be better than Robbie Cano. He might be, but he also might not be. What IT IS saying is that over the course of their careers, Adrian Beltre has been worth more wins above an average replacement player. that is itIt is not the fault of the formula that people consistently misuse it.Also, when I’m talking about large sample sizes, I’m speaking about 3 or 4 year averages. That is something much of the sabr community agrees upon. You are misinterpreting it and then refuting claims that are entirely false and nonexistent. No one things UZR on a year to year basis is a good measurement. Your ignorance keeps getting exposed with every further post.
I’m not a big UZR follower, but from what I hear, and I’m not sure how, it takes 3 full years to compromise how good a player is defensively on it.
I didn’t make it, I just look at it lol. There’s an article on it how you shouldn’t look at 1 year to see but it takes 3 years of data worth. No idea lol
Maybe if you actually understood WAR, you’d realize it is not a bullshit stat. You just have to take the stat at face value.WAR includes defense. There isn’t a valuable defensive measurement for catchers so WAR normalizes catcher defense to 0.0. Therefore the WAR you see for someone like Mauer is only his offensive WAR, where as Gardner is his Offensive WAR + his defensive WAR.It’s apples to oranges.Also, WAR is a value based stat in terms of past value, not future value. Obviously, it doesn’t take into account that Upton in the future > Gardner in the future. Was Gardner more valuable than Upton last year? Yes. Will he be in the future? No.
Just to further my WAR debate and how absolutely idiotic it is to use it as a sole means to compare players…Adrian Beltre is a career 50 WAR to Robby Cano’s 18… Now, even with Beltres good year last year, Cano is by far the better player…. but why is there such a WAR difference? Ben Zobrist had the highest WAR in the league a few years ago? I guess the Rays can now trade him to the yankees for Cano? Because Cano has never posted a WAR higher then 7, yet Ben Freaking Zobrist has. It’s so relative.. So to simply say oh Gardner has a higher WAR, no thank you is just plain ridiculous … Gardner @ age 27 268/.358/.367 Upton @ age 23 272/.352/.471
This is operating under a false assumption.That Upton and Gardner are at the same points in their careers. Gardner is 27. He is at the pinnacle of his career, coming off a season where he added 5.4 WAR (which is most of the 8.6 WAR you are citing.) That may be the best season he’ll put up ever in his career. Gardner was never projected to be a great major league hitter, and I would be greatly surprised if he didn’t regress.Justin Upton is 23. His career is still on the rise. His 3.1 WAR he put up last year is only a fraction of what he will probably put up each year for the next 5 years. Justin Upton is a potential superstar. I know it’s just “potential” and “probable”, but this is why each team employs a scouting department. Risk Assessment is an important part of moves like this. The chance Upton becomes a superstar is MUCH MUCH better than Gardner’s, and I’d even say the chance that Upton’s WAR on a year by year basis will be higher than Gardner’s in the upcoming years is very high. Those are odds I’d be willing to take even when considering you are giving up other top prospects.
I’m not saying that I WOULD want to include Gardner in a trade for Upton, but I’m just saying your logic is off.
Not the point I was making overall.
The point is, Gardner is needed in the Yankees lineup and Upton is not. Case closed.
Now if we are talking about which of these guys in the lineup would be a better asset to say the Mariners, I think we know the answer.
It is relevant to the point you were making because it points out a logical fallacy that is the foundation for your entire point.
You are saying that Gardner is more valuable than Upton by using Wins Above Replacement. I am saying that Wins Above Replacement only accounts for what they have done in the past and doesn’t account for the potential they might achieve in the future. The Yankees needed Gardner more than they needed Upton last year. That does NOT account for 2 or 3 years down the line when Upton is coming into his prime. I’m thinking long term.
Well I wasn’t speaking long term, meaning 5-10 years, I was speaking for the next few years.
If you think Upton helps the Yankees lineup (Right Now), more than Gardner, then tell me how? Moonraker has yet to answer that, can you?
In the next “few” years IE 3 years, Upton will be 26, going into the prime of his career, and Garder will will be 30 presumably entering his decline.Gardner is currently at the ceiling of his potential. 5.4 WAR is the best is going to do (presumably of course, but this is under credible information.) Upton’s 3.1 WAR is at the BOTTOM of his potential, he IS going to be better in next few years. There is so much more room for growth with Upton, its not even funny. Again, if it comes down to Risk Assessment, there is a better chance Upton will be better within the next few years than Gardner will. Right Now in 2011? Again, Upton’s ceiling is higher than Gardner’s and Gardner will PROBABLY regresses to his true abilities while Upton progresses to his true abilities, therefore Upton will PROBABLY be more valuable than Gardner next year. It’s about selling high and buying low.
If you can’t understand that Upton is a potential superstar with the probable odds to be much better than Gardner in the upcoming years, then there is no point is furthering this discussion.
Tell me how that dumb trade he thought of (no offense moon) up top helps the Yankees right now?
It doesn’t. I wouldn’t trade Montero AND Gardner for Upton because Montero has the ability to be a superstar as well at a more premium position. I agree, its a dumb trade. However, saying you wouldn’t trade Gardner for Upton straight up is also dumb, and that was the statement I was directly refuting.
I also forgot to add that Justin Upton instantly gives them a #2 hitter, a big piece they have been missing since Johnny Damon left, and his numbers will easily rise hitting in front of Tex and Arod.
Since when does Montero play a premium position? I havent found one scout who thinks he can stick at Catcher..
Cashman has come out and said that Jesus Montero will be the 2011 starting catcher for the New York Yankees and as far as I’m concerned, his credibility > your credibility.
So because he’s starting there that means he will stick there? sound reasoning
Because the Yankee organization trusts enough defensively to start at C, and I trust the Yankee organization to make the right moves, I have no reason to believe he will move from the position. That is much more sound reasoning than media hearsay.
Also, I’d like you to post sources from scouts that specifically say that he will not be able to stick at C.
How does losing 2 prospects, and gardner in exchange for Upton NOT help your roster right now? If I had said hughes, or someone else who has an important part of the current roster then you have a point, but trading prospects and gardner for Upton would help the ball club immediately… you keep working off the false assumption that gardner can post another 5 war season.
I bet you said going into 2010 that Upton was going to have a great year after the year he had in 09 when in fact this season his numbers were way down compaared to last year.
Montero is going to contribute to the club immediately so I don’t thinking saying “2 prospects and gardner” is accurate.
You can’t prove that montero will contribute immediately… How many top prospects rose to the bigs only to never succeed?
I’ll agree that Montero is as good as they come from AAA, but his defense has been criticized from day 1, the yanks have already offered him up in 3 or 4 potential trades already, and again no one knows how his bat will translate to the bigs.
Brandon Wood was rated the #3 prospect in all of baseball in 2006 after hitting
.321 with 43 Homeruns in AAA… he’s hit 11 homers in 4 seasons since..
And you can’t prove Upton is going to be successful every year and more than Gardner. Nor can I prove Gardner is going to be more successful than Upton.
And when I mean better, I’m not talking solely on power hitting of course.
3 words, Wait and see.
I understand what your saying, but there is a reason why Upton was drafted 1st overall, there is a reason why teams have scouting departments
its because baseball is all about future predictions
So if you have to predict right here right now, who will have the better career, gardner or justin upton, its a clear cut choice.. ofcourse anything can happen.
I understand what your saying, but there is a reason why Upton was drafted 1st overall, there is a reason why teams have scouting departments
its because baseball is all about future predictions
So if you have to predict right here right now, who will have the better career, gardner or justin upton, its a clear cut choice.. ofcourse anything can happen.
You can’t prove it, but any derived projection model will tell you that Upton is most likely be better than Gardner, as I have stated before.
Again, its about risk assessment.
Mark, I never said Gardner is and will be better than Upton. I said he’s more useful Right Now for the Yankees than Upton is.
You can’t prove it, but any derived projection model will tell you that Upton is most likely be better than Gardner, as I have stated before.
Again, its about risk assessment.
Jesus Montero is 21 years old and was rated a top 10 prospect in all of baseball the past couple years. Brandon Wood was 23 when he truly started to mash in AAA and 25 before he really got action in the majors. For someone who was boasting about Upton’s age before, you sure do know how to pick and choose your arguments.
Brandon Wood has always had horrible peripherals. Average 32% K rate with a 2% BB Rate. Montero’s peripherals are much much better. Plate Discipline has always been much much better for Montero.
Keep posting ridiculous claims and I’ll keep picking them apart.
Jesus Montero is 21 years old and was rated a top 10 prospect in all of baseball the past couple years. Brandon Wood was 23 when he truly started to mash in AAA and 25 before he really got action in the majors. For someone who was boasting about Upton’s age before, you sure do know how to pick and choose your arguments.
Brandon Wood has always had horrible peripherals. Average 32% K rate with a 2% BB Rate. Montero’s peripherals are much much better. Plate Discipline has always been much much better for Montero.
Keep posting ridiculous claims and I’ll keep picking them apart.
Because the Yankees would lose their top base stealer and top defender (IN 2010)Yes, we don’t know how good/bad he will do next year and upcoming years, but that can be said for Almost any player, hitter or pitcher, in the entire game of baseball, and that includes Justin Upton.
In the next “few” years IE 3 years, Upton will be 26, going into the prime of his career, and Garder will will be 30 presumably entering his decline.Gardner is currently at the ceiling of his potential. 5.4 WAR is the best is going to do (presumably of course, but this is under credible information.) Upton’s 3.1 WAR is at the BOTTOM of his potential, he IS going to be better in next few years. There is so much more room for growth with Upton, its not even funny. Again, if it comes down to Risk Assessment, there is a better chance Upton will be better within the next few years than Gardner will. Right Now in 2011? Again, Upton’s ceiling is higher than Gardner’s and Gardner will PROBABLY regresses to his true abilities while Upton progresses to his true abilities, therefore Upton will PROBABLY be more valuable than Gardner next year. It’s about selling high and buying low.
If you can’t understand that Upton is a potential superstar with the probable odds to be much better than Gardner in the upcoming years, then there is no point is furthering this discussion.
Well I wasn’t speaking long term, meaning 5-10 years, I was speaking for the next few years.
If you think Upton helps the Yankees lineup (Right Now), more than Gardner, then tell me how? Moonraker has yet to answer that, can you?
This is operating under a false assumption.That Upton and Gardner are at the same points in their careers. Gardner is 27. He is at the pinnacle of his career, coming off a season where he added 5.4 WAR (which is most of the 8.6 WAR you are citing.) That may be the best season he’ll put up ever in his career. Gardner was never projected to be a great major league hitter, and I would be greatly surprised if he didn’t regress.Justin Upton is 23. His career is still on the rise. His 3.1 WAR he put up last year is only a fraction of what he will probably put up each year for the next 5 years. Justin Upton is a potential superstar. I know it’s just “potential” and “probable”, but this is why each team employs a scouting department. Risk Assessment is an important part of moves like this. The chance Upton becomes a superstar is MUCH MUCH better than Gardner’s, and I’d even say the chance that Upton’s WAR on a year by year basis will be higher than Gardner’s in the upcoming years is very high. Those are odds I’d be willing to take even when considering you are giving up other top prospects.
I’m not saying that I WOULD want to include Gardner in a trade for Upton, but I’m just saying your logic is off.
Montero is going to be the Yankees starting catcher next year, so hes not going unless the Giants trade Lincecum
Thought Montero was getting a shot at starting C this year?
He will be the starting C outside of showing up for ST at 300lbs or by some weird miracle where Romine(sp?) beats him out.
Hell No!!!
Why would you trade all of that for Upton???? Joba and Gardner…if that doesn’t work, keep what we have.
joba and gardner? that wouldnt even land you bj upton let alone justin
That’s my point…if it doesn’t….move on. We don’t need Upton in that lineup. We need pitching. Betances is supposed to be the real deal. I know, it’s a question mark, but Upton only has had one good year. Same and BJ……could be an Upton trait.
He’s a 272/.352/.471 never posted an OPS under .799 and is only 23 years old with plenty of room to still get better, not to mention he’s locked up to a pretty team friendly category… but okay
He also stuck out 152 times last year, he pretty much gets thrown out every other time he steals…that’s great? I’m not saying he’s not a really good player, I just don’t want the Yanks to throw the farm system at him.
Who has more upside…Upton or Montero? I’d say Montero…just my opinion of course
Ummmm, Upton does… 1b/dh with power are a dime a dozen. Thats not even close man.
haha stick with the Jays bro.
What does this even mean!? ^
it means ignorance
It means for moonraker45 to worry about who the Jays should give up and not the Yanks. His first trade he thought of is a nightmare for the Yanks and no GM in their right mind would ever do that trade.
It means for moonraker45 to worry about who the Jays should give up and not the Yanks. His first trade he thought of is a nightmare for the Yanks and no GM in their right mind would ever do that trade.
Ummmm, Upton does… 1b/dh with power are a dime a dozen. Thats not even close man.
He will earn 10 mil in 2 years and 15 mil in 3 and 4 years. Not exactly team friendly
you’re paying Arod 33 million a year, just keep it down.
I am not saying it is a bad contract, I would not call it team friendly however. Keep it down.
I am not saying it is a bad contract, I would not call it team friendly however. Keep it down.
I think the Yankees sit this one out (Upton). If you do not include Montero, then you probably have no chance at Upton. It might be different if you were one of a few teams that could take on his contract, but for 5 years of cost control, other teams with deeper farm systems and spare MLB parts to trade will be bidding. The Twins could snag him; so could the Rays. I hope the Royals make a run at it.
Just look at the top 10 farm systems in baseball (maybe only top 5) — everyone else will either have to strip their team to get Upton or will be outbid by a team with better players to trade.
I think the Yankees sit this one out (Upton). If you do not include Montero, then you probably have no chance at Upton. It might be different if you were one of a few teams that could take on his contract, but for 5 years of cost control, other teams with deeper farm systems and spare MLB parts to trade will be bidding. The Twins could snag him; so could the Rays. I hope the Royals make a run at it.
Just look at the top 10 farm systems in baseball (maybe only top 5) — everyone else will either have to strip their team to get Upton or will be outbid by a team with better players to trade.
Ehh idk Probly another shoulder waiting to Blow up …. A second opinion on outfielder Justin Upton’s ailing left shoulder revealed that the slight tear in his labrum that he suffered in 2006 has not gotten any worse and should not require surgery.
http://arizona.diamondbacks.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100928&content_id=15189434¬ebook_id=15195218&vkey=notebook_ari&c_id=ari
Two shoulder tears within couple years is not really a good thing
Ehh idk Probly another shoulder waiting to Blow up …. A second opinion on outfielder Justin Upton’s ailing left shoulder revealed that the slight tear in his labrum that he suffered in 2006 has not gotten any worse and should not require surgery.
http://arizona.diamondbacks.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100928&content_id=15189434¬ebook_id=15195218&vkey=notebook_ari&c_id=ari
Two shoulder tears within couple years is not really a good thing
And the area of immediate need that Upton fills is? Last I checked, we had three pretty good outfielders yet only three starting pitchers.
And the area of immediate need that Upton fills is? Last I checked, we had three pretty good outfielders yet only three starting pitchers.
Sherman can keep pouring that Kool-Aid for Yankee fans, but when Lee signs with the Rangers, he’ll regret his predictions. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that Lee’s wife has so much influence over him that the ugliness she experienced from Yankees fans who hurled beer and obscenities at her will push her and him away from NY. Essentially, it was a preview of how Yankees fans will treat Lee and his wife if he goes there and struggles or blows games.
And if Lee signs with Texas look for them to be bankrupt again in 5 years. Thanks to them using that tv contract money to financing the team.
You do realize that everyone, including his agent and Lee himself, have said that whole thing with the wife was blown way out of proportion by the media? People did not direct obscenities at ‘her,’ they directed them at a section full of Rangers fans in Yankee Stadium. I am sure a bunch of Yankee fans would get the same treatment in Arlington. His wife could walk around the whole stadium and not a single person would have a clue who she is. Use some common sense.
You do realize that everyone, including his agent and Lee himself, have said that whole thing with the wife was blown way out of proportion by the media? People did not direct obscenities at ‘her,’ they directed them at a section full of Rangers fans in Yankee Stadium. I am sure a bunch of Yankee fans would get the same treatment in Arlington. His wife could walk around the whole stadium and not a single person would have a clue who she is. Use some common sense.
I’ll end this ridiculous argument like this
Upton > Gardner
Gardner for the Yankees > Upton for the Yankees (short term but not in the late years). And Gardner at 27 is not old at all.
Put Gardner on a team like the A’s, Royals, Giants, Pirates, etc. and they’d take Upton over Gardner in a heartbeat
I was just thinking about how uneasy I felt about the Nick Swisher trade a few years ago. I didn’t picture him fitting into to Yankee lineup. I was glad I was 100% wrong. Could that be the same with Upton?
My other concern was about a comment that Towers made about a team having to “grossly over pay” for a talented player like Upton. I wonder what it would really cost to get Upton? We can speculate all we want, but Cashman has a history of blowing us away with the really well thought out trade OR dealing away everything for a “glass diamond”. (looks great but cracks under pressure)
I was just thinking about how uneasy I felt about the Nick Swisher trade a few years ago. I didn’t picture him fitting into to Yankee lineup. I was glad I was 100% wrong. Could that be the same with Upton?
My other concern was about a comment that Towers made about a team having to “grossly over pay” for a talented player like Upton. I wonder what it would really cost to get Upton? We can speculate all we want, but Cashman has a history of blowing us away with the really well thought out trade OR dealing away everything for a “glass diamond”. (looks great but cracks under pressure)
Well, I’ll help end the argument. Ryan Braun > Upton+Gardner.
Haha, I know irrelevant, but it’s about all I have to brag about lately, thanks for playing!
Well, I’ll help end the argument. Ryan Braun > Upton+Gardner.
Haha, I know irrelevant, but it’s about all I have to brag about lately, thanks for playing!
look how joba has been treated by the yankees fans. he’s booed loudly when he gives up a run or two months after the world series win. why wouldn’t lee be treated differently?
If he pitches well he won’t. I don’t think I’ve ever heard CC been booed in the Bronx, probably that’s because he’s had at most 2-3 bad starts in the Bronx. Even when he gave up a ton of runs in his start against the Orioles and the Rays, he wasn’t booed, or not heavily as much as Joba I should say.