Here are some notes from FOX Sports’ Ken Rosenthal as he looks back on an incredibly busy Deadline Day…
- Several Cardinals players were unhappy that Allen Craig and Joe Kelly were traded away, which didn’t necessarily surprise St. Louis GM John Mozeliak. “We’ve had a tight clubhouse for many years, a lot of homegrown players who have been together a long time….When you have a young team, sometimes you don’t see these types of trades happening while you’re competing,” Mozeliak told Rosenthal. “It caught some people off-guard. But time will heal all wounds.” Rosenthal wonders if this trade and the recent signing of “notorious irritant” A.J. Pierzynski could’ve been made in order to shake up a clubhouse that had “perhaps grown too comfortable.”
- The Brewers and Tigers were the other finalists for Andrew Miller’s services before the Red Sox decided to trade the southpaw to the Orioles. Boston received inquiries from between 10-12 teams about Miller’s services. Jon Morosi, Rosenthal’s FOX Sports colleague, reported yesterday that Detroit was close to a deal for Miller about 2.5 hours before the trade with Baltimore was finalized.
- Some pundits have argued that the Rays should’ve gotten more from the Tigers and Mariners in the David Price trade, but Rosenthal is withholding judgement given how difficult the circumstances were for Rays executive VP Andrew Friedman. The return could’ve been even less had Friedman waited until the offseason to move his ace.
- In a tweet, Rosenthal notes that the Athletics decided against pursuing a Price trade in part because GM Billy Beane was worried that it would be tough to deal the southpaw this winter. Price could earn up to $20MM on his 2015 contract in his last year of arbitration eligibility, so as good as the left-hander is, the salary and only the one year of control would limit Price’s trade value.
Ortiz and Cespedes appear to be fast friends already. Wonder if he can play a role in helping the Sox extend him…
Knew that was going to happen
Papi hasn’t had a fellow Spanish-speaking power hitter in the lineup since Gonzalez left!
I think Ortiz will take Cespedes under his wing and try to help him becoe a better hitter which would be fun to see.
I think Cespedes will be a Red Sox for another 4-6 years after 2015 when he is a FE…He is a very dynamic player who should have 30-40 HR and 80-100 RBI easy
Would love to see him extended this offseason. Add 5 years 85 million to his 2015 salary and its a 6 years 95 million deal with an AAV under 16.
I agree, Papi will make him feel at home and help settle him down the way he does all the Latin kids. However, Cespedes strikes me as being a bit oversize for left field.
I loved the deal initially with OAK for Cespedes, but the more I think about it the more I feel that Cespedes has to be extended and at least 2 starters need to be brought in this offseason for me to be confident in this team, preferably 3 starters. I think FA 1, FA 2, Buccholz, FA 3 and rookie should make out the rotation
Free Agency is an awfully expensive way to build a rotation.
Agreed. But this team has their entire roster set for >$100mil next year except a few bullpen slots and the rotation. Maybe not all of it through Free agency, but if the Sox truly want to compete then they need to revamp the rotation with an ace, and at least 1 starter considered a #2/3.
I agree. I think they got good value, but I’m not sure it fits what they really needed. If they can’t land a top starter, I could see them shopping Cespedes.
I would really hate to see them deal him considering he is exactly what they needed. To me, if they can manage to get Lester/Scherzer for 6 years or less and an AAV of $25mil or less than do it, if not do everything you can to get Shields on a short deal, get Masterson as a rebound option, and then make a trade for a 1 or 1A….possibly Latos?
Both Lester and Scherzer should cost 6/$150. It is far more likely that the Red Sox give Shields 3/$60, which makes sense, because they should be able to produce enough offense with the addition of Cespedes and Craig to get by with Shields, Buchholz, et al.
Are you serious? Buccholz has been atrocious, and is injured all the time. There is a good chance he bounces back, but will most likely only make 20 starts. I don’t want that in the top 3 of my rotation, which is why signing the top tier player is preferred when you have the money to do so
I don’t disagree. I think that paying Lester and/or Scherzer market value makes a lot of sense, but I don’t see Cherington et al doing that. With their current offense and Shields, the Red Sox should be able to win 90 games without breaking too much of a sweat. With Lester or Scherzer, they probably win 95 or more.
Obviously, we would both make the investment for the extra 5 wins, but neither of us are running the Red Sox. I just hope that the Yankees can sign Lester. It will make the next six years even more fun. If the Red Sox do decide to go for Lester or Scherzer, they would probably be better off signing Scherzer, simply because Fenway Park is going to be more forgiving for a 35+ year-old RHP than a 35+ year-old LHP.
How do you figure? Lester will most likely come slightly cheaper and I would take the lefty who has proven himself in this market over the righty who hasn’t anyday
Lester or Hamels on a trade (but I think he’d be too expensive prospectwise) and Shields at 3 years 60 million. I think you can probably get Lester for around the deal Scherzer turned down from the Tigers 6 years 144. No need for Masterson or Latos. You’ll have Kelly, Buchholz, De La Rosa, Workman, Webster, Ranaudo, Owens, Barnes, to fill out the rest of the roster. And if you’re going to pay 55 million for your top two guys, you have to fill out the last two spots with major league minimum players.
I am fine with that, you have a 1-2 punch, but I just don’t trust buccholz and I see Don Kelly as more of a bullpen arm, He struggled in the NL, I don’t want to imagine what the DH will do to his numbers
I think that Kelly will be fine with the Red Sox, except when he pitches in Yankee Stadium.
Mets have Gee to deal.
And Colon. Gee has more upside, but oddly enough, Colon appears to be in better shape physically.
and at 42 going into next year, I would take Gee and is additional team control over Colon every single day of the week
Understandable, but what would the Red Sox have to give up to get Gee? I could see the Red Sox sending Shane Victorino and cash to the Mets for Colon.
Because of his age and additional team control, the Red Sox would probably have to give up somebody like Brock Holt or Will Middlebrooks for Gee. If I am the Red Sox, I would prefer the former deal to the latter.
Gee wouldn’t even be my number one option, we don’t match up well with the Mets. I would rather go to a team with a true ace that needs young pitching depth and tell them to pick any 2 of our pitching prospects not named owens and throw them a few additional prospects
They’re not going to shop Cespedes in the offseason, trading him for pitching would be basically going back to the problem they’ve been having all season, no offense. The Sox have a deep farm and there are always surprises in the offseason.
Cespedes is exactly what they needed as he is both a dynamic pure OF something they lack in the minors/majors and a right handed power bat which they lack as well.
Craig was one of the best hitters in baseball for 3 years before this and even if he splits the difference between this year and those 3 that is still a 110 WRC+ making him another good right handed bat to add to the lineup.
Can’t see them shopping Cespedes unless next deadline they are out of it again but I doubt that will happen becaus ownership knows they need to win and they will spend to win.
Right now I’d say next year’s rotation will contain Buc, De La Rosa, and possibly 2 of Webster, Workman, Kelly, and possibly Ranaudo depending on the next couple of months and spring training. My guess is they’ll target Shields or Masterson and possibly target someone via trade. You might see one or 2 new faces on next year’s rotation compared to now.
They have stated they want to compete, and that would be hard to do with an injury prone #3, a #4/5, and 3 rookies. They almost have to attack the pitching market this offseason, and they will almost certainly go into next season with an ace caliber pitcher
They need a one and two. I would rather sign a number one as a free agent or make a trade and maybe sign Shields as a number two. You have to figure a three year deal would get the job done there.
Agreed, but you want to leave 2 and a half rotation slots up to rookies? If they want to compete they need more than that. Masterson on a 3 year deal, Shields on a 3 year deal, sign/trade for the ace and stick Buccholz and the rookies in the bottom of the rotation to maintain depth
And then you’re stuck with question marks in both the number 3 and number 4 slot? No thanks. Kelly is not a rookie, and neither will Workman or De La Rosa be by next year. I’m going to take young guys at the minimum over Masterson who has progressively lost velocity over the last few years any day of the week.
It doesn’t need to be Masterson, guys at the minimum are nice, and I get your point on Kelly, DLR and Workman, but they are still young and for the most part unproven. I would take battle tested guys over a question mark every single time. Though that could change over the last 2 months of the season, if 2 of them show they can take the mound every 5th day and be a consistent arm in the rotation then that’s a different story, but for the time being we need to replace the top 1-3 slots in the rotation
Replacing Peavy shouldn’t be difficult, he was one of the ten worst starting pitchers in baseball this year. There is little point in having such an outstanding farm if you can’t find two guys there who can start at the Major League level.
The Red Sox are not going to sign both Masterson and Shields AND trade for an ace. If they sign Masterson and Shields, they will be part of your top 3 with Buchholz, followed by Kelly and Workman or one or two of the other young starters.
Masterson was just a name I threw out there, He is definitely not my top option, But Shields, an ace and another arm would be solid… Like I’ve continuously said, Buchholz scares me with the injuries and inconsistency
Do the Royals give Shields a QO? I think if they do that might limit the Red Sox interest, but it would all depend on if they play bad enough to get a protected pick for next year.
When it comes to number two starters the QO doesn’t mean squat. Particularly when your number one is likely to be protected because you played so poorly this year. They also picked up a competitive balance pick in the Oakland deal. You’re not going to prefer a second round pick to James Shields who has double digits wins and 200 ip in the past 7 seasons.
What do you think about trading for Ceuto/Latos in the offseason?
I can’t say I see the necessity. Sign two free agents and use these prospects as actual players. You’re going to have to resign Cueto and Latos for what you’d pay on the market anyway.
I just feel like Cueto is definitely better then anything on the market outside Lester +Scherzer and Latos when healthy has been better then the rest of them as well.
Might make sense to move the losers of the bottom two rotation spots for one of them if FA prices are too high.
I would be shocked if the Red Sox are not able to sign Shields to a 3/$60MM contract. Between him, Buchholz, Kelly, Workman, Webster, De La Rosa, and Ranaudo, they will be fine. If they are really nervous about their starting pitching, which they shouldn’t be, they could always trade Shane Victorino and cash to the Mets for Bartolo Colon. If Victorino makes it back from the DL before September 1, it would be interesting to see if both he and Colon could clear waivers, paving the way for a deal like this to be done this year rather than during the offseason.
Why would the Sox do that though? Victorino although oft injured, provides OF depth behind JBJ if he falters next season and there are much better options through trade and FA that can help address the Sox issues. The Sox have one of the deepest farms in the majors and can definitely use it to their advantage
Because he cannot provide depth if he is always on the DL. Move him and cut your losses. That way you can have Nava as a fourth outfielder and Betts as a fifth.
Understandable, but for Colon? there has to be a better option
No, no Colon ever.
They seem pretty committed to JBJ and Victorino as a 4th outfielder is a waste of a good, albeit injuy-prone player. Colon clearly has at least one year left in him and it would be better for the Red Sox to develop or save their best prospects when they have a more pressing need. They can most certainly get by without Colon, but I think that he can do more for the Red Sox pitching staff than Victorino can do for the Red Sox offense as OF depth.
No to Colon, there is no way
Well Holt/Betts/and even Cespedes offers depth at CF as well and if Vic can return a guy that can pitch in the majors (obviously someone other than Colon) it might make sense to clear his 13 million salary Just not for Colon.
No thanks on Colon. What is he like 39?
I thought he was like 42
Jeez, ew, who could afford to sign him as a number two, my god no. The Mets have to live with that decision.
The Mets def overpaid but I could see a team desperate for pitching making a play at him this offseason if the Mets eat the majority of his salary.
That would be a horrible starting rotation. They need to sign a bonafide ace or two if they want to compete next year.
Colon quit on the sox a few years ago in the middle of the season.
Well it depends on how the rest of the season goes. Right now De La Rosa is pitching well, Ranaudo pitched well tonight and has excelled in AAA, and Webster doesn’t have anything left to prove in AAA. Add in Workman who had a good couple starts last year and they have 4 guys that for me to be comfortable with their chances would battle it out for the back 2 spots of the rotation with the 2 losers going to the pen or AAA or traded.
SP 1- Lester, Shields, or Trade Target
SP 2- Shields, Trade Target, Ervin Santana, Masterson, other FA
SP 3- Clay
SP 4- De La Rosa/Webster
SP 5- Workman or Ranaudo.
Totally forgot about Kelly he could be equal to a Masterson or other 2nd tier FA.
I’ve been saying I prefer Kelly in the ‘pen, but if that doesn’t happen I would prefer him as Clay’s inevitable injury replacement
Thats actually not a bad idea have him and Workman stretched as long relievers/slash high leverage guys that can spot start fill in for stretches.
Listen time will tell if Franklin and Adames turn into stars, and I hope they do But it’s pretty much indisputable that the Rays didn’t get enough in return. In fact, I think the Rays should of held on to him for the stuff they got in return. They should of at least gotten around the same return they got for Shields, if not more.
Maybe Rays’ fans feel different, but I feel like they gave him up for pennies on the dollar.
It’s not like at $20MM for one year, David Price would have been overpaid. I think that the Yankees would have had no problem taking him for a year, knowing that there was a better than 50/50 chance that they could have extended him shortly after trading for him. The bigger problem is that Tampa would not have taken Yoenis Cespedes in return for Price.
They probably would have had to trade Sonny Gray and possibly another player or prospect to get Price and probably would not have been able to get equivalent players/prospects back from the Yankees in return for him this offseason. If Michael Pineda comes back this month and pitches well over the next six weeks, would his value approximate Gray’s? Probably not. Judge and Severino? Closer or further?
If Detroit resigns Scherzer this offseason, do they keep Price in 2015 or do they try to trade him? What can they expect in return? Would Judge and Severino be enough or would the Yankees have to include Sanchez as well?
I think Price takes the Tigers out of the Scherzer race, they have been said to be up against their cap, which was the reason for the fister trade, and they are trading one ace for another in next years rotation to stay competitive while maintaining a similar payroll
They can always trade Sanchez..3 more years of control at $16.8MM a year is very tradeable for an ERA champ with a record of durability. Jackson was due $8MM or so next year…if the Tigers bump payroll from 165 to 175 they can keep both Scherzer and Price long term based on how their contracts are set up with the rest of the club and the churn that will happen with Porcello, Nathan, Soria etc over the next 2 years
That is definitely a possibility, but they have smarter places they can use the savings in the offseason, for instance, the holes in the OF that Austin Jackson and possibly a retiring Torii Hunter present. They will have more pressing needs than a 1-2 punch of ace level pitchers, hoping Verlander can return to form for a 3rd. They have pitching locked in and will need to address the ‘pen and OF
It would be ironic if Anibal Sanchez found himself traded back to the Red Sox. What would it cost to get him? Jackie Bradley Jr., Brock Holt, and Brandon Workman?
I could think of many far worse ways for the Tigers to spend $80MM per year for the next six years than having Price, Scherzer, and Verlander at the top of their starting rotation.
With those three locked in, they could also afford to cash in on Rick Porcello’s breakout/fluke season and trade him for another contender’s cheaper/younger pitching and maybe even a productive offensive piece or two.
Porcello is probably going if Sanchez is staying or if they drop the cash bomb to keep all 3 Cy Guys. Bradley Holt and Workman I would do for sure for Sanchez. Bradley slots into CF, Holt into super utility and Workman is the type of guy DD drafts…tall wide frame projectable power arm…
If I were the Tigers, I would definitely drop the cash bomb on Price, Scherzer, and Verlander and go cheap everywhere else. With a ballpark like theirs, the only power guys that they should bother with are Cabrera and Martinez.
Fill the rest of the lineup with cheap, young, singles, doubles, and triples hitters who have enough plate discipline to get on base 35% of the time. Until PEDs are legal again, that is the best route to 90 wins.
We blame the owners for jacking up salaries, but when a guy can get $20 million in arbitration, who is to blame then? Clearly there is a precedent being set not just by owners that is resulting in salaries skyrocketing. When some teams can barely afford to retain their star players even in their arbitration years (or likewise can’t get as good a return for them as they otherwise might have because of their projected salaries), that is a major problem.
How do you propose it is fixed though? Teams already have plenty of ways of suppressing talent and manipulating service time to get maximum value. How does aiding billionaire owners keep money in their pockets help the game as a whole? If a player is a stud and earns the money he is worth, he should be paid appropriately
Reorganize the two leagues into one league for large market teams and another league for small market teams. The Yankee league has no luxury tax, revenue sharing, or salary cap. The Met league has a luxury tax, revenue sharing, and salary cap.
What?
You asked for a proposal to fix the current system. I gave you one.
Yes, One with 15 heavy weights and another full of triple A teams that always lose their talent through free agency
But at least the AAAA teams are playing most of their games against other AAAA teams and the MLB teams are playing most of their games against other MLB teams.
and half the teams lose their fanbase and every single world series for the rest of time
Not necessarily. Anything can happen in a short series.
I don’t think that any team would lose their fan base. Fans in small markets are as loyal as fans in large markets if not moreso.
I was pretty sure you were joking until I clicked the “Load More Comments” button and read the rest of what you had to say. I wish I had never clicked that button…
The blame lies in MLB expanding baseball teams into areas that cannot sustain them, not in the salaries. There are probably 8 teams that could not afford to pay Price. The vast majority of teams can afford to pay a player 20 Million.
You think there are even that many teams that can’t afford it? By my count there is Tampa, Oak, KC, SD, and PIT
I think Shields would fit in nicely in Boston if they could get a reasonable deal worked out with him,and I feel that they wouldn’t mind giving up a sandwich pick for him, it just depends on what his price tag would be.
Have to figure three years 60 or thereabouts.
Looking at the current team, I count 10+ internal options that could make an impact at the ML level within the next 2 years. Exclude Owens from the conversation, package 2-3 of those arms in a trade for a proven commodity, you still have ridiculous depth, someone at the top of the rotation, money for more top of the rotation arms through FA, and 1 slot (plus the slot Buccholz leaves when he inevitably goes down) in the rotation for the league minimum guys
There is no reason to trade for a starter when the free agent market is full of them. Particularly when you have about ten of them available for two open spots next year after you’ve signed a few free agents. No need to make a trade, particularly when one of the only top of the rotation arms available is Hamels and RAJ wants four top prospects for him.
To be fair, Cherrington could overhype his prospects to RAJ and he would eat it up.
You said it yourself, there are 10 options vying for 5 slots. I’m not saying blow the farm and deal with RAJ, but trading 2-3 of them for a proven commodity would be worthwhile when trying to make the playoffs
Joe Kelly is a good pitcher. He was never given the opportunity to start on a consistent basis this year. Last year he was 10-5 with a 2.69 ERA working as a reliever/starter. The Red Sox have committed to him as a starter. He has good stuff and should be fine. His issue was he never had a defined role.
He missed several weeks with a hamstring injury. Hard to say they didn’t give him a chance this year when he was on the DL.
Yes but prior to that he was a sixth starter. Moving back and forth between the bullpen and the starting rotation. Tough to get a rhythm that way.
I was commenting on this season. Yes he has flipped between the pen and starting in previous years, but this year he has started all 7 games he appeared in. The injury was why he has not had consistent starts.
If the sox stay in the bottom 10 i think that is a moot point
Scherzer is probably going to cost more than Lester.
It depends on their respective markets. Who will be bidding for Lester? Who will be bidding for Scherzer? If I am Brian Cashman, I am going to be far more interested in Lester than Scherzer, knowing that in the last three years of their six-year contracts, Lester is going to be better in Yankee Stadium than Scherzer.
Conversely, if I am Ben Cherington, I know that Scherzer is probably going to be better suited to pitching in Fenway than Lester when they are both 35+. Also, the Red Sox might not even be in the bidding for either of them. They might decide to go after Shields since he can probably be had on a 3-year deal.
The Dodgers and Tigers could be in the bidding for both Lester and Scherzer, but aside from them, who else will be bidding 6/$150 or more? The Cubs have the money, but I don’t think that they are at a point where they are going to start spending big to ramp up to contention.
I just don’t see the market for either Lester or Scherzer to be so big that the bidding gets much higher than 6/$150 and the fact that the Yankees could/should be more interested in Lester than Scherzer should enable the lefty to keep pace with the righty.
The Cubs could very well go hard in free agency, their prospects are knocking on the door and Baez, Bryant & Co. should be ready sometime throughout 2015, they have arrieta as a solid pitching option, and they have the money to go get 2 aces in free agency. If they load up like that and the prospects step up as hoped, they could contend next year, or 2016
Maybe, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
Why not? Lester was Theo’s guy, it would make sense to bring him in at the very least
It’s possible, but I don’t think Chicago is where Lester is going to wind up, especially when he can get top dollar from a contender.
I don’t really want Shields. I don’t think he’d pitch well here D:
He’d be a good number two in my mind, but I would never take him over Lester just to have a shorter contract. Solid guy, innings eater. I could see him having similar numbers to Lackey.
Don Kelly would be an awful pitcher, considering he’s a utility guy for Detroit xP
My bad, I meant Joe Kelly, but depending on how his audition goes down the stretch this year, I could see him in the ‘pen
I’ll give you Will Middlebrooks for a package of Oreos and a piece of blue string.
Who knows, Middlebrooks looks like he is swinging the bat with his eyes open in the game against NYY today. Could be progress
He always does that when he comes up from the minors then after a handful of games he forgets that some pitches aren’t fastballs down the middle.
Oh they’re bad enough.
Minnesota, the Marlins and Cleveland. Houston would just refuse on principal.
Cleveland can afford it if they didn’t blow their wad on swisher and bourne, Minnesota can spend, they have proven they just don’t know what ML talent is, and the Marlins have the money, Loria is just a snake. I was basing it on teams that legitimately could not afford it
Pittsburg made 21.8 million last year, so they could afford it too. Cleveland lost 1.9 million last year so they are out. It really doesn’t matter, you can decide who can afford whatever you want, it doesn’t make it true.
And Miami lost 8 million, so no they probably couldn’t afford a 20 million dollar pitcher.
fair enough, but it is speculation on both of our parts, it doesn’t automatically make you right
She offered facts though, based on franchise values and who gained/lost money. You offered unfounded feelings and opinions (“Loria is a snake…”). She wins.
No it certainly doesn’t but I have some actual numbers to back it up, not just a dislike of Loria.
Loria has proven that he can spend when he went out act got Reyes, Bell, & friends, then he pulled a fast one on the Miami fans to sell them all, by calling Loria a snake, i was alluding to that whole situation in which proves he has the money to spend
How about Anibal Sanchez? He is not an ace per se, especially not on the Tigers, but he should be a very good pitcher in Fenway with much more upside than Colon or Gee. Combine him with Buchholz, Kelly, Shields and your young starting pitching and youfr rotation would be in pretty good shape.
If that made sense for the Tigers I’d do it, but I still don’t see them moving him
I disagree. With their improved offense, they can get by with Shields et al. As much as I hope that the Yankees will be significantly better next year, I don’t expect that they will, nor do I expect the rest of the division to be much better than it is. The Red Sox will be fine. I don’t see them making a massive investment in a #1 pitcher, when they can by with a bunch of #2s and #3s.
No they can’t. not in the playoffs. The sox have always had an ace at the top since Henry took over. they always have the ace, they always spend the money, they will have the ace come opening day
That ace will more likely than not be Shields than someone like Lester or Scherzer. He’ll be good enough.
He is not an ace at this point, he is a 2 and the sox have always had that bonafide ace since 02 when Henry started his tenure. It went from Pedro to Schilling to Beckett to Lester. That ace was always there and I have no expectation of that changing. Shields isn’t on the same level
Hard to argue Beckett was a bonafide ace any year but 2007 and that came out of no where.
He was thought to be a top of the rotation arm in 05 when we acquired him, and proceeded to be an ace on a championship run, and basically every other year he was with the sox
2006 his first year with the team he had a 5 ERA, then in 2007 he pitched like an ace, 2008 4 ERA, 2008 3.8, 2010 5.8, 2011 2.89 but had chicken and beer fiasco, 2012 was terrible and got traded.
I mean he may have been the “Ace” on the team because there was no one better but he wasn’t a top 30 pitcher (what I consider an ace or number 1) any year but 2007. Especially with his injury concerns and attitude issues.
I’d forgotten that the Cardinals were the ones who took in AJP. He actually worked well with Lackey in Boston, about the only Sox starter who did.