The Blue Jays opened “serious discussions” with the Reds last summer about a possible deal to add star first baseman Joey Votto, according to Richard Griffin of the Toronto Star. But those talks “never gained momentum,” per the report.
Instead, Toronto shifted its attention to adding Troy Tulowitzki and David Price in a pair of blockbusters that helped push the club into the post-season. While the dialogue with the Reds seemingly did not get very far down the line, Griffin says that the expectation was that Cincinnati would hold onto some of the large financial commitments to Votto, who is owed $179MM after the end of the 2016 season. (Ultimately, the Blue Jays took on Tulowitzki’s own lengthy deal, but sent Jose Reyes back to the Rockies to help offset the cost.)
Of course, it must be emphasized that those moves — as well as the chatter with Cincinnati — all took place under former general manager Alex Anthopoulos. He left over the offseason after the team hired Mark Shapiro as club president, with Shapiro ultimately bringing in Ross Atkins to step into the GM role.
It’s not clear whether or not the new front office leadership would share the interest of its predecessors in adding Votto. A native of Ontario, Votto would surely be desirable to any organization, as he continues to put up stellar offensive numbers (.309/.433/.522 with 20 home runs thus far in 2016). But the monster contract is another matter, especially for a player who will soon turn 33 years of age.
We’ve yet to hear of any current interest in such a maneuver from the Shapiro/Atkins front office group, so for now it’s all hypothetical, but Griffin goes on to argue that Votto still makes sense as a target for the Jays. It seems likely that Votto will clear waivers, and perhaps he’d be amenable to waiving his no-trade clause for a chance to return to his native land. In the near-term, he’d represent a major boost to a team that has seen its best left-handed hitters fade of late, and then he’d step into the void left when Edwin Encarnacion and Jose Bautista reach the open market after the season.
There’s certainly some facial appeal to the suggestion, but it bears noting that there are plenty of hurdles even if Toronto were to pursue Votto. Among other things, the Reds would presumably want to minimize their  ongoing salary obligations while also reaping a nice package of young talent to part with their best player.
A healthy productive Votto would be a huge addition for any playoff contender. Cincy would have to eat some salary to garner better prospects but it is definitely possible that if Votto waives his ‘no trade rights’ then it could get done.
“Votto, who is owed $179MM after the end of the 2016 season…” Whoops. I believe he signed an extension and it may start after 2016, but it definitely doesn’t end in 2016 for $179m.
No “whoops” – the sentence is correct as stated. Votto is owed 179 million from 2017 (aka “after 2016”) through 2023, including a 7 million buyout for 2024
Yep.
Read it again Eastern Canadian!
It doesn’t say “by the end of 2016”, it says “after the end of 2016”, which is correct.
Obviously anyone would like Votto’s bat in the lineup, but if the Jays had to acquire an expensive veteran and part with prospects too, I am much happier with the Tulo deal. He plays plus defense at a premium position, while Votto makes the logjam at 1B/DH even worse for the Jays.
Exactly! Couldn’t agree more. Also, Tulo is on a shorter deal for shorter dollars.
At least Votto stays on the field.
Unless he gets suspended due to a temper tantrum. He is way too mentally unstable and quite simply just plain mean.
True. 2Low the Glass Boy. Take Votto any day.
You know what you’re going to get with Votto and Tulo. In Votto’s case that’s a compliment, in Tulo’s that’s not so much. One will lead the league in OBP (or at least be up among the league leaders), the other will spend a bunch of time on the DL.
One has more defensive value, the other spends a lot more time on the field.
And it’s equally important to note, when Tulo’s durability is questioned, that Votto has had similar issues the last few years.
Votto has had a couple of knee(ish) injuries in the past, in 2012 and 2014, but he’s had no problems in 2015 and 2016. Unlike SS, 1b isn’t a particularly dangerous/injury prone position. Votto has twice missed large numbers of games with problems to that same knee, but hasn’t missed time with other random fluke injuries, for whatever that’s worth.
Ribs, hips, quad… you never know what part of the body is going to put Tulo on the DL.
If I’m the Reds I wouldn’t pay a cent of Votto’s contract and would want multiple high end pieces.
Provided he can avoid injury Votto’s skill set is one that should age well.
That being said I hope the Reds don’t even consider moving him, or he uses his no trade. He’s a very productive player and one of the few reasons to watch them. Have no issues at all with him playing out the contract and retiring a Red.
As for Tulo I’d take Votto every day of the week over him, guy is a Coors field product who can’t stay on the field.
You beat me to it, but you’re absolutely right.
The Reds are trying to rebuild around Votto. He’s such a productive player and possesses a skill set that should age well, so he’s highly unlikely to be moved, and it’s even less likely for the Reds to eat money to move him. Votto and Bailey are the team’s only big contracts left going forward.
His contract is huge, but one that’s also justified by his own production. If he were a free agent this winter he’d get at least as much average annual value going forward as his current contract provides. A team that wants Votto would need to take his contract – essentially a free agent signing – at the expense of several high end prospects.
Also, for whatever it’s worth, the Reds have no in-house 1b replacement candidates. They haven’t tried particularly hard to find ones. Due to Votto’s long term deal 1b is the most barren position in the Reds’ farm system. A young 1b prospect would be a logical part of any Votto trade.
I seriously doubt these talks got very far, with both sides likely being on totally different pages. Heck, different chapters. Probably why we haven’t heard about this until now.
Votto’s 33 years old, they’re not building around him. By the time the Reds are ready to contend his contract will be an albatross.
They’re aiming for 2018, when he’s 34. Votto actually turns 33 next month. They should have a good idea of how their rebuilding efforts are going by the time he’s ~36.
They can aim for 2018 if they want but there is literally nothing on the team that points to that being realistic. Waiting for 2018 before evaluating whether or not to move the only valuable trade commodity they have would be idiotic. Outside of Winker and Herrera they don’t have any type of intriguing offensive talent in the higher levels, Votto could change that. Moving him before he gets hurt again or regresses should be of interest.
Nick Senzel isn’t an intriguing offensive talent? He’s currently lighting it up and looks like he could be the real deal. Do some research before you make comments your not sure of.
Tulo is not a Coors Field product other than the fact that he played at Coors Field. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this site. I wonder why we never hear that Clayton Kershaw is just a product of Dodger Stadium as well. He is hurt just as often and his park is as friendly to pitchers as Coors is to hitters. Of course I will never claim that because it is just as ridiculous a claim as yours.
I wish Dodger stadium was an extreme pitchers park to the level Coors is an extreme hitters park – Kershaw might actually be a God then.
Very few people are hurt as much as Tulo. Kershaw is not one of them.
To me it all depends on how much of the contract the Reds are willing to eat. If the Jays can get the Reds to cover a 1/4 of the contract (around 45 million) then they would be into Votto for 19.5 million a season (not including the 7 million option for 2024). IMO I couldn’t see the return being too steep either, a couple of prospects and possibly someone like Smoak to offset some salary, If the Reds want to fully rebuild, the money owed to Votto would be better spent elsewhere.
The Reds have already made most of their major rebuilding moves, moving most of the pitching staff (Cueto, Latos, Leake, Simon, Chapman), Frazier, Bruce. Zack Cozart is the last trade chip that anyone in Reds country seriously expects to be moved (perhaps Brandon Phillips too, if he changes his mind and accepts a trade despite previously exercising his 10/5 veto rights). At some point maybe Homer Bailey will get moved, once he proves he’s recovered from Tommy John surgery.
I don’t think anybody in Reds country seriously expects Votto to be traded in the near future.
How is Homer Bailey going to get moved? He has started 8 games over the past 2 seasons and is owed a minimum of $68M. Phillips won’t get moved since he wants a contract extension to waive his 10/5 rights.
If votto were to be claimed on waivers, would Cincinnati even pull him back? That’d be a decision their front office would have to think long and hard about
Yes, they’d pull him back. No, that absolutely wouldn’t be a hard decision.
He’s leading the league with a .433 OBP (and going way up ever since the All Star Break). He’s a superstar. His homeruns are down a little, but he’s otherwise the same player who won the 2010 MVP, and finished in the top 6 in voting 3 times since. The front office doesn’t need to think more than a second – you don’t let superstars get claimed off waivers.
They’re rebuilding, but have targeted close-to-ready major leaguers. The 2016 Reds have an ugly record, but they have one of the better records in baseball in the second half. Many of their top prospects are in or on the verge of joining the majors. Their goal is to contend in 2018. They’re not giving away their best player just when things are starting to look up.
But theyre paying him until hes 39, that’s pretty scary for a small market team
No it isn’t. If it was that scary, they never would have signed the deal in the first place. They are not the dullards that you take them for. They were perfectly aware that Votto was going to be 39 at the end of the deal when they signed it and were perfectly aware that at 39 he probably wouldn’t be the player he is at 30.
The Reds should not give up Votto without the other team paying the entire salary AND a minimum of one great and two very good prospects. On the open market, Votto would definitely get a QO and probably get a lot more money (or the same money for fewer years which is just as bad) and cost you a high draft pick. So the price really isn’t all that high.
You’re right, Votto could get at least as much as his current contract on the free agent market today. It’s a weird double standard that what would be an acceptable deal, once signed, is now undesirable or unmoveable. Several teams would be open to paying a guy like Joey Votto just what Votto gets paid, but for a trade, suddenly another team would need to eat money just to move him. That’s crazy.
But you’re not just paying him then, you’re also giving up prospects. Of course the other team is going to eat money then.
The Jays don’t have the option of just paying his salary do they? They have to pay prospects just to have that right. You’re basically saying that if the Jays would take on his entire salary, then the Reds should give him to them for free. That’s obviously ridiculous. The acquiring team doesn’t have the right to him at his contract value, as if they should only have to pay an amount equal to his salary in money and prospects.
I get that you’re a Reds fan and like him on your team, but the truth of their market size and ability means that they have to always consider to some realistic degree every opportunity that they get to shed the largest contract on their payroll.
He’s a superstar, yes, but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t let him and his contract go in the right scenario.
The ‘right scenario’ isn’t eating a bunch of his contract to move him today 🙂
I think the Reds need to see how their rebuild – with guys like Amir Garrett, Cody Reed, Robert Stephenson, Jesse Winker, Jose Peraza, Dilson Herrera, Nick Senzel, Billy Hamilton, Eugenio Suarez, Raisel Iglesias, Lorenzen, DeSclafani. – goes in 2017 and 2018. All those guys are in the majors, or on the verge of it.
Votto is signed through 2023. If the rebuild flops in 2018 or 2019, then look into moving Votto. Moving him now really undermines their hope of successfully rebuilding a contender.
Giving his entire contract away for nothing is probably best case scenario financially that the Reds could expect. Not only does it free up money for X free agent, or Y & Z international prospects, but you get to move a player that’s about to start declining in performance (if he has not already). Also, small markets can’t bet on a player’s skillset to go against the trend of decline as they age.
I like seeing Votto when the Reds are on the road in my town and would very much dislike seeing him go to the ALE, but it’s the rational baseball move to make for the long term success of the team.
Free up money for who or what? What better use is there for the Reds money than Joey Votto? Gamble that money on worse players?
It’s the same reason the Angels won’t trade Mike Trout.
How is this relevant?
This free content provided to more people than you is relevant to baseball, an obvious topic of your interest if you’re on this site.
Redbirds should get him for Edmund Sosa, Jaime Garcia, and jack flaherty
Jeff:
“(Ultimately, the Rockies took on Tulowitzki’s…”
Should be “(Ultimately, the Jays took on Tulowitzki’s…”
I want to see crooked trade proposals on here where you guys at!!!??
In all seriousness Cincinatti should get a monster return, and if they pay some of that contract they pay the absolute minimum. Or nothing. Vottos return should be big because I feel as if the Reds returns for all the trades have been marginal. Finnegan, peraza and Herrera are the only two that really stand out to me. And that’s not much in my mind. I may definitely be forgetting someone but if they do this they need something huge. I think they’re rebuild will take quite some time.
Since the start of the rebuild they’ve added the three you mention, plus Cody Reed, Anthony DeSclafani, John Lamb, All Star Adam Duvall, Scott Schebler, and Eugenio Suarez. Plus successful waiver claim Dan Straily.
A couple of years ago when the Reds started selling, most of their top prospects were in the low minors, but now LHP Amir Garrett, RHP Robert Stephenson, OF Jesse Winker, are almost ready. Others, like Raisel Iglesias and Mike Lorenzen, are already in the majors. Several others, like RHP Sal Romano, RHP Tyler Mahle, RHP Rookie Davis, OF Phil Ervin, and INF Alex Blandino are slowly reaching the verge of the majors.
Additionally they drafted 3b Nick Senzel, who is widely expected to be one of the fastest rising picks of the 2016 draft class.
Maybe I’m missing somebody, but regardless of the popularity of individual trades, their combined asset makes a team that has a good chance of doing well in 2018. If all these guys go bust, then, maybe, you look at trading Joey Votto. But if you’re writing off 2018 already, why bother rebuilding or ever trying to win in the first place?
Okay so I did forget Duvall and desclafani, I like The latter of the 2, he seems to be a solid starter who you can depend on, I do like Duvall but am worried he won’t be consistent.
Idk how I feel about the other 2 lefties they got from KC because they were bombed this year but it is early to tell for them. Lorenzen seems destined for he pen, schebler doesn’t look like he will stick unless he break out in a big way (his recent success makes me have hope for him) and I did forget suarez.
The other few I don’t know much about but personally I see the Reds having a hard time truly competing in 2018. Obviously anything could happen but as of now, I just don’t see it. That’s just my opinion on the situation they are in.
It amazes me these mid market teams sometimes, Votto would be worth a tonne more right now if his contract expired at the end of the season, why they signed him to such a bid ridiculous extension, later in his career doesn’t make sense on many levels, you can now only trade him to a larger market, your only going to get barely prospects back unless you eat a bunch of money, and if you don’t your paying a tonne of money for an aging player who could start really declining in a couple years, what compelled the Reds to sign that extension?
A desire to lock down and retain Cincinnati’s resident superstar. The decision was made back when the Reds were a genuine contender.
The Reds had money. They decided that it was better to spend it on a good player, rather than spend it on other players.
The money in 4 or 5 years will look modest when we have $40 million per year hitters and pitchers. Even today Votto’s annual pay is not among the those at the top of the market. He is richly rewarded but so are all those other guys hitting .230 or with 4.90 ERA’s and making $15 million.
Tulo is no longer a superstar. Whether his superior numbers were Coors related or not he is no longer same player. He is being paid as one though. He is often injured but puts up better than average power numbers. Not sure how defensive metrics are this year.
is that so? ever since he came back from injury on june 18th he’s hitting over 300 with 13hrs with ops over 900. his defense is more than adequate for the time being. although still above average, the numbers are dragged down a bit from when he was playing through injury earlier in the year and made quite a few errors before hitting the dl.
Votto is a cuckoo bird, I see every game in Cincinnati. He can’t run the bases he’s a poor Fielder. Reds are not the Yankees and cannot throw money away on one player paying a quarter of their salary basically to him
They also must find a spot for Mesoraco . His catching days probably are over.
The Jays should trade for Votto quite frankly, because when Edwin and Bautista leave there are going to be gaping holes in their batting order and a LOT of production to make up.
As good as Votto is, his contract is obscene. The Reds will have to decide, if they move him, between two options: 1-Eat a large portion of his salary and get a bunch of good prospects in return or 2-Cover none of his salary and get very little back, simply a salary dump, as if he left as a free agent. No team is going to surrender much if they are expected to take on that contract in it’s entirety.