The Braves are “aggressively swapping offers” with other organizations for starters, according to ESPN.com’s Buster Olney (Twitter link). Atlanta has been rumored to have inquired on basically all of the quality, young, controllable arms that might be available, and it seems that the organization is serious about pursuing a major strike. One such pitcher, of course, is White Sox lefty Chris Sale, who has also reportedly been asked about by the Braves’ division rivals to the north. Adding a starting pitcher isn’t exactly a priority for the Nationals, at least from the perspective of need, but Barry Svrluga of the Washington Post argues that the team ought to push hard for Sale. By Svrluga’s reckoning, the team has the prospect arsenal needed to get something done; after another postseason disappointment, he says, adding another ace could get the team over the hump.
Here are a few more notes on the developing market:
- There are five teams in on free agent utilityman Sean Rodriguez, reports Chris Cotillo of SB Nation (via Twitter). One is the Pirates, who have said they’re interested in a reunion, and the Dodgers are also intrigued, per Robert Murray of Fan Rag. MLBTR rated Rodriguez as the 35th-best free agent available after his productive 2016 campaign.
- We’ve heard discussion about the possibility of the Phillies dealing Cesar Hernandez, particularly after the team acquired second-base-capable Howie Kendrick, and CSNPhilly.com’s Corey Seidman takes a look at his possible trade market. His productive 2016 and cheap control make him an interesting option for other organizations, though the question remains whether he can sustain his breakout. Seidman discusses some players who could hold appeal to Philadelphia, suggesting that the club would be most interested in a major league return.
- Lefty Johan Santana may not be done yet, Cotillo adds on Twitter. He’s planning on winter ball in Venezuela in hopes that he can land an opportunity with a major league organization. This certainly isn’t the first time that Santana, now 37, has had a crack at a return, but his prior efforts have all been thwarted by injury. The two-time Cy Young winner has not seen major league action since 2012.
- Free agent slugger Wilin Rosario is still hopeful of landing with a major league club after spending a year in Korea, Cotillo tweets, but he’s not committed to playing in North America. A return to the KBO could also be a consideration, per the report. Rosario, 27, may no longer be an option behind the dish, but his power should intrigue regardless. Over 532 plate appearances last year with the Hanwha Eagles, he posted a .321/.367/.593 batting line with 33 long balls, though of course the KBO is a notably friendly league for hitters.
Does anyone think that the White Sox will actually give up Sale? Who would the Braves even give up to get him?
Quote me
He is going no where !
Sox will give it one more try, before rebuiling.
I agree with WS4e
I wouldn’t doubt the interest of Coppy in Sale, but I also wouldn’t doubt his ability to use the media as leverage in trade discussions for another trade.
Other teams do have better prospects (LAD, BOS), but are they willing to give them up? BOS now has another Cy Young pitcher, do they use their farm to stockpile another elite arm or fill the DH spot, reinforce the bullpen and obtain another lesser arm (without giving up the farm)?
I think Coppy is looking for a team that will not only deal an ‘ace type’ pitcher (Sale, Quintana, Gray or Archer) but one that will do it without including Swanson, Albies, or Maitan. I DON’T think that such a deal exists without there being some creative thinking (such as perhaps taking on James Shields and his salary as well). I also don’t think Coppy really wants to subtract significant pieces from the major league roster either (in other words pieces like Inciarte or Folty).
I also think that the Braves would seek to include Fried and/or Sims (if possible) in any such deal IF it were to take place before Friday’s deadline on establishing a 40 man roster in order to protect eligible prospects from the Rule 5 draft. Doing so would enable them to have more flexibility in case the team is looking to add more pieces down the road without exposing higher end prospects that might be desired by other teams.
Personally I’m afraid that any trade to acquire and ‘ace type’ pitcher will be extremely costly and one that Braves fans in the long run will deeply regret.
I don’t think Braves fans will regret it if they get Sale. It’s not like we’re giving up a Sale package for Archer.
Archer will command an even bigger package than Sale since he has more years of control, he is younger, and he is cheaper. I doubt very much you get Archer cheaper than you would pay for Sale.
If the White Sox are truly rebuilding, why would they forego more prospects to get rid of the Shields contract? A non-competitive team can more easily stomach that as a sunk cost, so there’s no reason to clear payroll space and drag down the return of a Sale trade in the process.
I agree with this. I don’t think the desire to deal Sale isn’t there. If there was ever a market to do it, this is it. However, he’s still so valuable it would be hard to come to terms on it. Similar to theories of Mike Trout trades (although obviously not as steep a price). It’s not that there isn’t a price that could be paid, it’s just that that price is insane and no team could really afford to pay it unless they slash and burn the farm system. That of course comes with a different set of problems.
Braves won’t give up what the Sox ask. I doubt they would want to pay the package for even Archer.
Hard to see it happening..looking at what the Braves got for Shelby Miller, why would any team gut their whole farm system? It will be interesting, to be sure…
I kind of agree with you that they won’t end up trading Sale but the Braves have 7 top 100 prospects and to land Sale it would take 3 maybe 4 of them and another mid level guy
Anyone else starting to feel as if we will be hearing “x” team showing interest in Sale still in March. White Sox should absolutely keep the price sky high and if it’s met….great! Adding Castro and a DH (Beltran?) is a good option regardless of the future direction. Otherwise 2017 is going to be frustrating cause the market will pass us by.
I’m actually thinking that the White Sox plan for a full scale tear down that will be signaled by dealing Chris Sale. They then will deal away all their high value players (but not someone like Anderson who has so much control left) to push back their timeline until 2019/2020 or so. Those types of moves will not be popular with a large portion of their fan base, but in the long run will bring the chance of sustainable long term competitiveness to the White Sox. The White Sox have been trying the same type of stars and scrubs method for years and it has NOT been working for them. Many of the Chicago baseball fans have departed the pale hose for the Cubbies and their recent success so I just don’t see the White Sox having the monetary resources, the tradeable player resources at the major league level (because when you start trading away just a few of the ones with value it significantly weakens the major league product), or the farm system currently to be truly competitive in the next couple of seasons anyway.
The sox fan base of about 10,000 barely know when the team plays.sale trade would be the best thing they could do to push reset and start over they certainly haven’t won with him plus it time to break up the all lefty rotation
Johan Santana having his career fall apart due to injury just sucks. He could very realistically STILL be a top flight pitcher otherwise. I’d love to see him pitch a bit again.
There are numerous pitchers that you could say the same about. Mark Mulder comes to mind. He was dominate. Then a shoulder injury.
There should be a 30-for-30 of the legend of Mark Prior.
I would hope it would be on “the arms Dusty killed” and include Kerry Wood
Kerry Wood at least went on to pitch out of the pen for another 8 years (after 03 when Dusty “ruined their arms”). Prior never saw the majors again after 06
Roy Halladay, Roy Oswalt, and Cliff Lee – all destroyed by Age 35 or after the 2011 season.
Brandon Webb
Steve Avery
The Sox will be trading Chris Sale somewhere if their demands are met. It makes too much sense. Their owner won’t spend big, and their patchwork crap has led to them to being 68 games under 500 since 2013. Time to go a different route, and they can kick start it big time this off season, and they will.
Reinsdorf will shell out the money for his prized White Sox. He always has. The problem is the organization is a joke, at every level. They always just sign the wrong guys. They have terrible scouts, analytics teams, managers, and an atrocious front office (cough, cough…Kenny Williams). They sign the big names when they are in the last 75% of their career, or even the twilight of their career.
Supposedly:
“Albert Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing something over and over again and expecting a different result.”
Whether Einstein really said that or not, the point remains that Reinsdorf may not continue to do what he has done over and over because of the simple fact is that it isn’t working very well following that method.
I really do not understand some of the trade proposals I have seen for Sale. If anyone trades for him its going to hurt, there is no way around it. It is hilarious that people think they can trade a bunch of fringe prospects and get Sale.
Look at the returns for Shelby Miller, Andrew Miller, Aradolis Chapman, even Drew Pomeranz.
That is why honestly I think the team with the best legitimate shot at Sale is the Red Sox with Moncada and Bentintendi. And I already know Red Sox fans will say that will never happen, but I think that is what it will take.
The White Sox cannot handle the HR mess that would come with a botched Chris Sale trade.
So I think they have to feel that they won the trade or hang on to him. The White Sox are in the drivers seat. (weak free agent market, any mlb team could afford his contract, and an amazing talent in his prime)
The only way I see the Braves trading would be mid season and if Folty pitches well. Folty, Ender, Albies, Newcomb, Allard. Three controlled starters who would have to have performed well in 2017 and 2 pitching prospects. One risky with high potential and one in A ball.
That said the trade would have to happen at the trade deadline with those 3 players putting up good numbers for the ML club.
Still nowhere near enough for a top flight, cheap, and young lefty.
Are you kidding? Thats enough and quit frankly I doubt the braves would part of either ender or folty for him
Not when White Sox fans want Benintendi, Moncada,Kopech,Devers plus for Sale. Let’s be real if the Whits Sox fans are anywhere on the same page as ownership he won’t be moved end of story.
Fans are never on the same page as ownership and/or reality.
The problem with your scenario is that if those 3 are putting up good numbers, Atlanta will be less likely to part with them. Young players doing well is what you build your team with, and the most valuable asset in the game.
Any trade with the Braves has to start with Swanson. Plain and simple.
Not true. The Atlanta braves will not trade Dansby Swanson and they don’t need to. They have the best farm system in baseball.
I don’t know about best, but they have one of the deepest, even with obvious holes at several positions. I’d kill to some of the Red Sox position prospects — if they’re not duking it out with CHC with that farm and 2 Cy Young winners — Matt Damon and Ben Affleck better run DD outta town.
Then they will not be getting chris sale. Because every team in baseball wants chris sale and someone will give up a package with a young mlb player and other quality prospects. You aren’t gonna get Chris Sale for just prospects, there is just too much risk there for the white sox.
That’s why I don’t believe Sale will happen, but those players are replaceable. If a trade were to happen, that’s the only way I see it happening
Good to know that you’re apparently the White Sox GM now and/or can read minds.
I agree. There would have to be a level of consent that the White Sox won the trade on the level of Atlanta and Shelby Miller.
I also agree that such a trade with Boston would have to include Moncada, Benitendi, plus more, which would be too rich for DD’s blood.
I agree with what you are saying
Any finalized deal would have to be an enormous return for the White Sox that clearly offers a brighter future
Considering what the Braves got in return for Miller, the bar is set extremely high for what it would take to get Sale. Eventually a team will pony up in an effort to get over the hump.
As I have said before the return for Miller was an outlier by a GM who has lost his job and was a bad GM. I think if a trade goes down the White Sox fans will be upset at the return. As a Red Sox fan I would be upset to completely gut one of the best farms in baseball for one guy. A guy who has an unusual high arm stress delivery. I believe that he might get traded but it wont be for what the White Sox fans think they are getting. I hope the White Sox keep him and don’t trade him and try to reload.
I can’t see the Braves pulling this off. If I were the Braves I’d make an offer of Inciarte, Albies, Newcomb, Ruiz and Muller and pray they’d take it. Without a premium bat and a premium arm the Sox have no reason to make that deal though. Red Sox, Cubs and maybe the Rangers seem like better fits.
I really hope that trade would never go down. Losing Inciarte and Albies both would be too much.
So you think your going to get an ace pitchers without loosing premium players? In my opinion that offer couldn’t even get Archer. I do not see that Braves having enough to offer for a premium pitcher and still have enough left over to compete.
I think the Braves would be rushing things by a year by trading prospects now for a premium pitcher. They aren’t going to the playoffs next year, so why trade prospects now. They are not ready to compete with the Nationals and Mets. I would give it another year or two before I would trade any prospects away.
No, I mean I understand Sale will require a lot. and rightly so… Gray would obviously be relatively cheaper and I think would be the better option. I think the base for any deal will involve Albies and Newcomb though. Two of the top 30 prospects in baseball is a pretty good starting point. I cannot justify losing our gold glove starting CF and leadoff hitter though. He has too much value for the team.
I agree it’s a lot to include Inciarte but offensively he’s really nothing special. No power and doesn’t steal a ton of bases. He gets on base okay but I think Mallex has more potential. Albies looks like a player but who knows, he’s injured now and maybe he comes up and can’t get on base. Newcomb has control issues. All those guys are imperfect prospects which is why the Sox won’t do it. I think he’ll be in Boston personally.
And I agree on Gray as well. I’d much rather have him if the cost is lower. Albies and Newcomb alone should get that conversation started.
Albies will be a special player. He is playing way above his age in AA and AAA and looks to have plenty of ceiling left in his floor. Any deal with Albies, Allard, or Maitan should be off-limits if Atlanta hopes to maintain a decent prospect pipeline.
Like others, I do not think Atlanta is ready at the big league level or in the farm system for a Chris Sale type of deal, unless Atlanta plans to watch another Teixeira type timeline play out. Texeira was obtained with a bevvy of topnotch prospects that Atlanta watched develop into numerous big league players, while they missed the window and failed to truly compete with Teixeira in tow only to lose him to free agency.
Another year with a great draft and time to develop some of the prospects and season newcomers to the big league squad is in order. Still, its always good to kick the tires and put some offers out there, in case there is a deal to be had that doesn’t include those three or Swanson. Putting Julio Teheran in the mix or taking Shields might get a good deal done for both teams.
I don’t see why putting Teheran in the trade makes sense of either team. The Braves would be improving their #1 starter, but what they need at SP is depth more than anything. The White Sox would be downgrading, but the types of prospects (or fringe MiLBer) coming back wouldn’t be steller. Its the type of “half rebuild” move that doesn’t do much to help the White Sox enough now or in the future to justify it.
I agree if the scenario ended there it wouldn’t work out well for the White Sox, so adding in Shields to clear money would be needed to reduce the prospects for Atlanta further and keep their rebuild alive. As for the White Sox mini-rebuild, they would have another valuable trade piece in Teheran and have cleared salary to put towards the international and domestic drafts this summer. I don’t like it for Atlanta or Chicago, but it might work. A “half rebuild” move for both teams with more work to do. Neither club will be where they need after one move, anyway.
I don’t like the idea of Atlanta doing this kind of trade at this point, at all. Still, both Sale and Teheran have trade value further down the road.
Inciarte was a 3.6 win player last year, with a down season at the plate, and still has 4/5 more years of control left! So inciarte+a top 20 overall prospect+another top 50 prospect+a near MLB ready thirdbaseman+an incredibly highly rated first round draft pick is not enough?? honestly, i think the braves turn that trade down
You are out of your mind. Why even rebuild to give it all away?
It’s all in the market. You trade away when you can’t compete and then buy when you can. Take some risks on unhealthy pitchers and when their value rises send them off and keep the guys you know won’t go South. Most of the Braves prospects are cut off that cloth. Losing them isn’t an issue. Also the rule 5 draft might become a big problem in the coming years. Braves need to make some trades, but more trading quantity for quality. So trading for an Ace isn’t what they need to do
It’s so funny to see braves’ fans who wanted Moncada for Julio Teheran think they can get Chris Sale for a package that doesn’t gut the system.
I completely agree. Most of the Red Sox proposals I have seen are usually a little light for what I think the Sox could get, but most of the Braves proposals are just ridiculous. Most of them seem completely out of touch for what it takes to get an Ace pitcher, especially one for so cheap and under control of three years.
Players Salaries over the next three Years:
Kershaw $105.5
Greinke $102.5
Price $90
Verlander $84
Scherzer $81
Lester $80
SALE $38
So get out of here with these prospects are untouchable. No prospect is untouchable for a player like that if you are trying to go for it.
And of course the Braves do not really make sense because they are not a big market team. Boston and LA can cut their system and then go out a buy players on the free agent market when need be. Braves not so much.
It’s so funny to see you keep acting the entire fanbase is a few posters on this site. LOL.
I absolutely disagree with that offer, why would the Braves give up that much for three years of control? I see no way the Braves could extend Sale past 2019, therefore they’d be forced to trade Sale prior to the 2019 season for the best return or in season 2019 for a lesser return. I agree that the White Sox should expect a “Huge Haul” but in my opinion that haul will come from somewhere other than Atlanta. Think “Usual Suspects”, LA, Boston, Washington, with Houston also having a shot.
I’d prefer an Archer trade, controlled through 2021, but again it would take a huge haul. I’d really like to see Albies, Muller, Inciarte and Newcomb playing at Sun Trust Field wearing a Brave’s uniform.
As a Braves fan I gotta agree with this. Chris Sale by himself isn’t going to launch the Braves into contention next season. He’s the type of piece a playoff contender trades for to become a world series contender. Braves had a good offensive surge in the second half of the season but I hope the FO doesn’t read too much into that and think that it will sustain itself into 2017. The Braves should be better next year, probably even flirt with .500, but they still have more holes to fill before they can think about taking on the Nationals.
Also why trade for an ace after stockpiling so many arms? I remember John Hart said that you don’t sign ace pitchers in FA and you don’t trade for them, you develop them internally. Would be a shame to dump the farm and then find out that we had that ace all along, he was only a year or 2 away at the time.
Something tells me, we want Archer, could settle for Gray, but would nab Sale if the price was right.
They all tie into each other because we would be leveraging the 3 between each other to get the best deal possible.
Chisox will probably be more stubborn since they can find a better offer, but until that offer comes, we can use them to lower the price on Archer(a little) and Gray.
I do not get your reasoning. All three pitchers are under team control long term. There is nothing that is going to lower their asking price. Worst case scenario they stay on their respective teams.
Teams do not trade ace pitchers for the sake of trading them.
I mean that Sale will be the biggest haul. Archer next, then Gray.
I’m not saying it won’t be a haul for either team. I’m saying that maybe one team might be more inclined to take a lesser deal(Quantity over Quality).
This all depends on how teams value our lower ranked prospects like Riley, Muller, Wentz, Demeritte, Fried, Sims, etc. knowing they can also get Newcomb or Allard.
The idea for the Braves is to avoid giving up Albies and keeping their MLB talents at home. That probably knocks Sale out of discussion, but maybe it opens up a deal for Archer and Gray(who I think it could).
I hope the Braves will pull the trigger on the cheapest between the three (Gray, Archer, and Sale) Obviously Sale would be nice, but the return he would demand will most likely be too much.
I doubt the A’s sell low on Gray. Unless Swanson is in the trade, I do not think the Braves have what the Sox want, so I see no trade happening there. And I think Archer would cost enough that it would set the team back.
I think the Braves would be rushing the rebuild to acquire any of those pitchers. The braves are not beating the Mets or Nationals next season, so I do not see the point. I would try to make some of those trades next offseason.
I think it is the 2018 & 2019 options which intrigue the Braves.
Heading into a new stadium with an Ace you can promise will be around for at minimum 3 years and a plan to try and compete in that time… I get that. Not sure I completely agree with it, but I get it
I think the Braves continue to push Dansby as the crowd pleaser in the new stadium. Hometown, “homegrown” kid who plays everyday at a premium position? That is what bobblehead give away days are made for.
I’m inclined to agree with you there, I think making a move right now like that could be a rash decision. I believe there is an ace or two in the pitchers the Braves have stockpiled in the minors and it’s just going to take some patience until they are ready to make a difference.
I think ATL knows what it has enough to be able to deal away some of it, and keep the pieces it believes will round out (i.e. Max Fried, Mike Soroka, Patrick Weigel over Sean Newcombe, Lucas Sims, etc.).
For me, Weigel should be nearly untouchable above all the other pitchers you list. Really think he is a future TOR arm. He should not be dealt. Period.
I feel the same way about Soroka. A kid that young with his command is very rare.
Yeah I like Soroka a good bit over Weigel. I do think that Weigel probably has the higher ceiling, but he is older and probably not as likely to reach that ceiling. Soroka seems like a sure bet to be a mid rotation arm.
Hope some other team pays the price for Sale and not the Braves. Don’t really want him. If push came to shove I’d rather have Archer. He has a cleaner delivery and hasn’t shown the attitude problems that Sale has shown.
Same. Archer just seems the better fit between team control and future success.
I think Archer is the target the whole time. Guy is great in the community, has a better contract than Teheran, is even consistent than Teheran and could be the 1-2 punch our rotation needs. And I don’t think he’ll cost Sale’s price.
Wow you’re going to be shocked by the sticker price then. You’re going to have to blown the Rays away. They have so many other pieces to trade to fill in around Archer, Snell and eventually Honeywell that they can wait to get exactly what they want. At five years he makes the same amount as Sale does for his 3. This whole winter is going to be sticker shock on SP that’s controllable.
Once you add in Archer’s 5/$39mm contract compared to Sale’s 3/$38 and I’m not so sure Archer will cost less than Sale to acquire.
Yeah. If we really wanted Sale, we wouldn’t be wasting time on Archer or Gray.
Seems like Coppy wants to use his mind tricks he used on Stewart to gather a baseline to compare and then actually make a strike.
****Plot twist
Archer and Gray costs the same as Sale, so we end up with both in a 3 team deal. Somehow we keep Folty, but lose Newk, Albies, Allard, Demeritte, Soroka, Sims, Riley, Mallex, and Muller,
Bummer, but we still have Acuna, Maitan, Anderson, Wentz, Touki, Fried, Wiegel, Minter, a boatload of younger talents, and the 2017 draft ahead of us.
We lose the immediate pipeline guys, but being so deep, who cares. You just added 2 guys that are already where we hope those prospects would make it to.
Rotation: Archer, Gray, Julio, Folty, and 40 year old pitcher. Basically cashed in on our bigger prospects and got 2 proven, cost controlled TOR arms. We compete for 2017, and makes us a promising young team to a 2018/19 big hitter.
Archer and Gray allows us to wait for Anderson and Wentz to develop, and that’s if Touki and Fried don’t make big enough jumps. Again, we have the 2017 draft as well to load back up.
Jesus that would be insane.
That would be one hell of a plot twist.
What, no one wants to talk about Sean Rodriguez?
Nope, just the same nonsense over and over about Sale going to the Braves or Red Sox. Getting tiresome.
White Sox aren’t looking for depth, they are looking for premium talent.
Drew Pomeranz brought back a top 15 prospect
Half a season of Chapman brought back a top 20 prospect
Also, it has been said the Sox are looking for position players, and other than Albies, the Braves no not have much else to offer.
When was the last time a talent like Sale was traded with three years of control left and a way below market value contract? If a trade goes down, it will be for an absolute haul of players.
I guess that little note that Pomeranz and his injury isn’t worth mentioning…
What does that have to do with anything?
Great question… I have no idea what that has to do with anything. The Red Sox dealt for Pomeranz assuming he was healthy (based off the medical records they received from the Padres). Obviously the Padres would’ve gotten less if the Red Sox were given legitimate info. But they weren’t – and they gave up a top 20 prospect (elite talent) for Drew Pomeranz, a SIGNIFICANTLY worse pitcher than Chris Sale…
“The Braves no not have much else to offer” -chitown. Who else said that sentence in an Asian accent? Lol. Look buddy. The braves ABSOLUTELY have that to offer. Top flight talent: Albies, Anderson, Maitan, Newcomb, Wentz and Soroka are all premium talent.
The White Sox are looking for position players to headline the trade. So that would mean Albies or Swanson. Maitan is too young and too much of an unknown to head line a package for Sale. Never said the Braves do not have a good farm system, but they do not match up as well with Sox needs as the Astros, Rangers, Dodgers, and Red Sox.
Guess you should call up the Red Sox and Cubs then. Good luck with trying to squeeze Moncada or Jimenez away from them. In the meantime, hopefully Coppy will be on the phone with the Rays and a handful of other clubs talking about pitchers who don’t have risky delivery’s and declining stats.
You think the Rays are going to give archer away cheaply? He is a stud pitcher signed for 5 years for around $40 million. Good luck trying to try him away from the Rays. He will cost almost as much as Sale.
Is that what I said? Try reading comp 101. But I’d be a heck of a lot more comfortable giving up a big package for Archer than I would be Sale, if the FO is so determined to get one of them.
Okay, what is your realistic trade that lands Archer?
I don’t propose trades. That’s stupid and pointless. I’m not a GM and neither is anyone else here. How many trade proposals on this site have ever actually happened?
Cubs wouldn’t trade Jiminez for Sale?…
Agree
Two years ago, Josh Donaldson. But it was four years of control, not three. I wonder if Sale cutting up the jerseys and whatnot was his version of Donaldson dissing Billy Beane…
Sale is the better pitcher of the two but I’d rather see the Braves work out a deal for Quintana. Good LH starter on an affordable contract til 2020. Braves definitely have the pieces to work out a trade that doesn’t include Albies
The Sox want position players, so not they do not have the elite position players without Albies.
They want position players, but won’t scoff at pitchers either.
Trading a perennial Cy Young candidate with years left on his contract for more pitching defies logic. It would be met with apathy from Sox fans. The Sox lack hitting, power and speed, not arms that aren’t quite ready for the MLB.
how about sale and frazier for Meadows Glasnow and Newman
I got one. Drew Pomeranz for Freddy Freeman.
How does that make sense? The red Sox have Hanley at 1st and the braves don’t need a SS. I guess if you had Hanley and panda for freeman and Julio Teheran. The braves flip panda to the giants for a ptbnl
That might be the worst trade proposal ive ever seen. Ramirez wouldn’t get either of those guys, and adding Sandoval makes it even worse for Atlanta
If the Sox really want to over haul their team, they have Sale, Quintana, Frazier, Abreu, and Eaton to move. Those five players should get the Sox a complete overhaul. The Braves,Dodger, Yanks, Red Sox, Cubs and Nats would be in the mix. They should either be all in or all out. They could trade Sale to the Braves, for Albies, Inciartes, and Newcomb. Trade Quintana to the Dodgers or Yanks for Bellinger, and Deleon, or Judge and Mateo. Trade Frazier to the Mets for Matz or Wheeler. Trade Abreu to the Nats for Robles and Feede. You get 4 pitchers, 1B, 2b, ss, Cf, Rf, Lf, all in the top 100. Otherwise, try and win with what you have and add to it.
I dont know why people are getting all crazy on here. I think braves fans know the price ot would cost to aquire any pitcher and coppy already said he isnt after an ace. But hes going to do his due diligence and see what happens. Not like he knew he was going to get the return he did for miller
A Braves deal with the White Sox would look something like this. It would be a four for two trade. The Braves four would be: 1) Nick Markakis plus 2) pick of Sean Newcomb or Koby Allard, plus 3) pick of Mallex Smith or Rio Ruiz, plus 4) pick of Lucas Sims or Touki Toussaint. Braves value would be $2+$35+$25+$24 or a total of $86 Million and about 38 WAR over 20 contract years. The Sox two would be Chris Sale, $88, 18WAR, 3Years plus James Shields -$8, 2WAR, 2Years for a total of $80Million, 20 WAR, 5 Years. Chicago gains two top 100 pitching prospects (46,90) a young MLB ready position player and an excellent outfielder including 18 WAR spread over 15 contract years and reduced payroll by $40 over the next three years. Braves gain 6 WAR for next three years which moves them to a break even record or better and the ability to trade or flip a starter (Shields, Colon or Dickey) at the trade deadline or before.
I may not win the popular vote here, but I am for the Braves going after a controllable club ace type. With a rotation of Sale, Teheren, Colon, Folty, and Dickey, with the offense of the second half, and if Vizzy can stay healthy, I can see a wild card berth. With the new stadium, and with Dickey and Colon only being 1 year commitments, this could be a really good thing.
The Braves should go after Chris Archer and Evan Longoria as a package
Would be nice but man the return the Rays would want..
The Braves have a lot of young starting pitching and a couple of position players so i think they could swing it.
Archer is going to cost essentially Sale price plus now add in the face of a franchise. The problem is the Rays need and want offense badly. The braves just don’t have the high end offensive pieces needed especially with Swanson being untouchable.
A Braves deal with the White Sox would look something like this. It would be a four for two trade. The Braves four would be: 1) Nick Markakis plus 2) pick of Sean Newcomb or Koby Allard, plus 3) pick of Mallex Smith or Rio Ruiz, plus 4) pick of Lucas Sims or Touki Toussaint. Braves value would be $2+$35+$25+$24 or a total of $86 Million and about 38 WAR over 20 contract years. The Sox two would be Chris Sale, $88, 18WAR, 3Years plus James Shields -$8, 2WAR, 2Years for a total of $80Million, 20 WAR, 5 Years. Chicago gains two top 100 pitching prospects (46,90) a young MLB ready position player and an excellent outfielder including 18 WAR spread over 15 contract years and reduced payroll by $40 over the next three years. Braves gain 6 WAR for next three years which moves them to a break even record or better and the ability to trade or flip a starter (Shields, Colon or Dickey) at the trade deadline or before.
What if the braves pull off a deal for all 3. Sale, archer, gray. I’m daydreaming obviously, but gosh that would be some sort of rotation teheran and folty. Guess FA and colon would be bullpen pieces. but o well.
Got to dream every once in a while right?
As long as we’re dreaming………..I’m dreaming the Braves come up short and wind up taking Ubaldo off our hands
Of course he’ll then go on to win 20 games
A Braves trade is pretty simple to build around, and being stingy with your prospects is being unrealistic. Teams are going to ask for Swanson, probably won’t get him unless the Braves are getting an ace plus another good major league player. So after that, a deal revolves around Albies and whatever top pitching prospects the team wants. I can see Inciarte having value, but throwing him in is more of a win-now move, something that would be negated by giving up an ace. The only way that the Braves acquire an ace without giving up Albies/Swanson is if they completely gut the farm, and in this case, quantity does not equal or exceed quality. It’s Albies plus other top prospects, Swanson plus other top prospects (but less than what an Albies deal would cost), or gutting the rest of the farm for a deal. No deal is going to be headlined by a couple of lottery tickets or prospects in the 15-30 organizational ranking. Again, in this case, quantity does not equal quality. The Braves want a quality ace? They’re going to have to give up quality prospects/young players.
I agree that including Inciarte in a move would not be likely because 1) it severely hurts the current major league product of the Braves by removing a player that has averaged more than 4 WAR over the last 3 seasons and 2) it is more of a win now move by the acquiring team which is probably not what they are doing by selling an ace anyhow.
I agree that No deal is going to be headlined by a couple of lottery tickets or prospects in the 15-30 organizational rankings (my definition of lottery ticket is a rookie league or A ball pitcher who is under 20 years old with HIGH upside and has only had one or at most two years of pro experience and thus small sample size and not much experience at all OR someone with lights out tools but hasn’t put it all together yet—your definition may differ)
Personally I don’t want to see the Braves deal for an ace pitcher this off season, but I do want to point out that I strongly disagree with your statement that “quantity does not equal quality” in regards towards the Braves farm system. From my understanding by most major prospect list the Braves include 7 or more top 1oo prospects in all of baseball. That doesn’t even include Ronald Acuna who writers from both Fangraphs and BA said will be in the new top 100’s when they come out. The Braves top 10 is absolutely loaded and it’s players in the 10-20 range would in MOST organizations be in their top 5 prospect lists. The sheer quantity of high end prospects is one of the major factors in Coppy seeking a deal to begin with. He thinks someone will bite on what he has to offer.
I will also say that whatever deals happen or don’t happen it will be determined on how the braves perceive their players and how the other team perceives them as well. If the Braves think Swanson, Albies, and Maitan are the long term solution for the Braves and can’t miss, then they won’t deal them. Simple as that. Their perception of those prospects will guide whether they are ‘stingy’ with them or not.
There could be other deals that might work for both sides, although both teams will be left with too many holes to comfortably compete for a championship for my taste. Adding Teheran and Shields to the deal would change the prospect dynamics and possibly only cost three or four top pitching prospects, Something along those lines might be more realistic, but I would rather see the Braves wait another season with a deeper farm following this summer’s draft and more development time.
Why would the Sox ever Trade Sale for Teheran and prospects? If they trade Sale it is for maximum upside players. Shields $22 million is a sunk cost at this point.
Also, this would be a highly unpopular move by White Sox fans. You cannot trade the face of your franchise as part of a salary dump.
I only see the Sox trading Sale if they get exactly the high end prospects that they desire. Otherwise hold onto him.
I personally wish Reinsdorf would put some money into the team for once and go for it. The core is pretty solid. The Sox stay mediocre because they never spend on high end talent.
If its a sunk cost the White Sox wouldn’t trade Sale for that package. I thought it might be feasible if they cleared some salary, got an excellent trade piece in his own right in Teheran to use for part of the season and see, and scored 3-4 top 100 prospects.
We are talking about the White Sox starting the rebuilding process, here. Saving money is part of it, so you can take on bad contracts with other benefits.
What is maximum upside? Two MLB-ready caliber players and three prospects and the ChiSox are there? Is maximum like what would happen in the dream scenarios with the BoSox? I doubt Boston will trade their top two MLB-ready prospects together for anyone. They are too close and too good (they will be rookies this summer). Its probably one or the other and a package of four or five prospects.
First off if the Sox are totally rebuilding they don’t need to dump shields because they will get plenty of salary relief from the other players trade.
Second, the Sox do not do this trade because it would be a penny pinching half measure. I am not really sure how Boston could consider Moncada, Benintendi plus an overpay when you look what it has taken to get premium pitching.
Shelby Miller= brought back three premium talents
Half a season of Chapman= Top 20 prospect plus
Drew Pomeranz= Top 15 prosect
Andrew Miller= Top 25 prospect plus
In my estimation there has to be 3 top 50 prospect plus to even get the Sox attention, with the headliner being a top 15 prospect.
I don’t exactly know where the idea of the Braves throwing Teheran into the deal came from because I know I didn’t suggest that at all (although Xalz may have come up with it). I definitely don’t think the Braves would consider that in any way at all, nor do I think it makes much sense from a White Sox point of view either.
I do want to point out to chitown11 though that the Shelby Miller trade should NEVER be used as a comparison to any legitimate trade as setting a baseline. The Miller deal was universally thought to be horrible by everyone in the business except by Dave Stewart and it (among other stupid deals) ended up costing Stewart his job in the long run. The Miller deal is an abnormality among baseball trades and not one to base anything on at all.
Look what the Yankees got in return for 3 months of Chapman from the Cubs?
Now imagine what 3 years of Sale is worth…
If I am not getting a huge return I won’t trade him. An ace like Sale can anchor a playoff rotation and put a team over the top. Fans ALWAYS overvalue their teams prospects and think they all will end up being mlb regulars
Proven mlb talent is and always should be the most valuable trade chip. Left handed elite starters do not grow on trees and when a team has an opportunity to acquire one do not be surprised to see Sale dealt for a massive return.
Moncada and Nintendo are two top 10 prospects but it does not really matter because it appears that DD has grown tired of what the White Sox are asking for and has said that sure he is interested in trading for Sale if Moncada and Kopech are not included. Maybe it will change at the dead line but I don’t think anyone is going to pony up what the White Sox want for Sale. It appears that DD is already looking at Benintendi as a part of the big league team he didn’t mention him with the prospects. I think it is clear if you can make some deal without those guys then he is interested if not so be it he will roll with what he has.
With very very weak free agency pitching, someone should pony up to get Sale. Cubs gave up a lot to get Chapman and majority were slamming them. He helped win the World Series them. Would they trade with crosstown rivals? Happ 21 on prospect list, 23 Jimenez 97 cease 99 candelario, underwood, soler Baez. 4-5 of them get it done? Lester Hendricks arrietA Sale? Wow
No chance Sox trade with Cubs because it would be a PR nightmare. I agree that if you really like the package you should take it, but Reinsdorf will never do that.
Sale is the pitcher Theo wants, controllable for years, young,
Package would help sox out immediately . Last trade I think was bell for Sosa. White sox still stinging from that one . I’m going to keep dreaming 🙂
Actually, Sox got ’em back when they received Jon Garland (a Cubs 1st rounder) for Matt Karchner (set up guy) when the Cubs were in the Wild Card hunt in ’98. Jon Garland made a quantum leap along with Jose Contreras in 2005 and the Sox won the World Series.
Sox won’t trade Sale to the Cubs, even if the right offer came across. It would be a PR nightmare to trade the face of the franchise to the Cubs
I think the sox should gauge the market for sale ,Quintana , Frazier, melky, and Robertson those are needs for other teams around the league and should bring back some good league ready and near ready talent. I think it’s exciting what the white sox can do if they do it is another story
I think that the White Sox should just go into free agency and get some bats they have a good nucleus they should go for it with there guys. If at the Trade deadline they are out of it then you can do a complete overhaul and see what you can get. I don’t think any GM is going to do a bonehead move like Stewart did the White Sox are not going to get what they think they are going to get for Sale this is why he hasn’t been traded they are asking for the moon and no one is going to bite. The value of quality young players especially top 50 prospects has never been higher. The White Sox are not going to get 3 or 4 top 50 prospects for one guy even if that guy is Sale. They should just delve into the free agent market and go for it. They just have to get into the dance with there starting pitching who knows what could happen.
Didn’t they try that with Frazier , Robertson and shields At least gauge the market for your players maybe you’ll get better players now
I don’t think they are being realistic in the value of their players and need to plot a direction. If they are waiting for a haul like Atlanta got they will be waiting a long time. They have a good nucleous so why the hell not maybe they will be blown away by someone at the trade deadline, I doubt it, but you never know. In the meantime they could be a problem in the playoffs if they got in. This is just a thought at this time I don’t think they are moving anyone at this point.
I disagree with you.
If you were the Sox GM you would rightfully ask for the moon in return for Chris Sale and his cheap three years of control left
Given the total lack of quality FA starters on the market it will force teams to make trades in order to improve. Once the bidding war starts you never know who may jump into the mix to get him.
I think, if Sale is actually dealt, the White Sox fans are going to be very disappointed in what they actually get. If he does not get dealt that is because the White Sox ownership stuck to their guns and waited for the massive return. They have a better chance at the trading dead line when teams are willing to overpay for that chance at making the playoffs.
You do realize the amount of trades in the last year plus where top prospects were traded for top pitching. I have seen several articles where they said the White Sox ask is fair value. The winter has just begun.
Below shows exactly why a team will pay the price to get Sale. You simply cannot get a player of this caliber for the price. When account for the contract he is more valuable than every pitcher on this list.
Players Salaries over the next three Years:
Kershaw $105.5
Greinke $102.5
Price $90
Verlander $84
Scherzer $81
Lester $80
SALE $38
I have not seen one article anywhere that suggests anywhere near a Moncada and Benintendi plus others is what it should realistically take to get Sale. I have actually read that if the Red Sox are willing to trade Moncada then a deal will probably get done. At this point DD has said he is not interested in trading Moncada. DD is not afraid to trade prospects for proven big leaguers he does seem to also realize the Red Sox top prospects have the chance to be special and is probably not trading them at least not in the off season. If they need Sale at the dead line and he thinks that is the difference then he might bite but not now for what the White Sox want. The Red Sox will have a very formidable rotation I believe next year I also think Erod will take a giant step forward and emerge as there third top notch pitcher. The White Sox will have to look elsewhere for there trade maybe that is why there is so much talk that the Braves are pushing for Sale. Clearly the Dodgers and the Red Sox could beat the Braves if they wanted to but show no inclination so maybe what he Braves offer is the best they can do and he will be Brave this offseason.
The Red Sox are sitting in the bushes, waiting for sale.
I for one hope they go w/the rebuild & youth movement. I’ve enjoyed watching Sale & Quintana pitch on the South side, but they’ve tried to build around them for the past 4-5yrs & it’s been a total disaster. The blame starts w/the FO (Kenny Hahn as i like to call them) & JR. As many have mentioned before JR doesn’t like making tough choices. Perfect example was the KW & Ozzie battle 5yrs ago, he had the opportunity to clean house & decided to let Ozzie walk away & kept KW & his bloated ego. So if the plan is to rebuild & that seems to be the direction if you believe everything you hear & read from the MLB pundits. Here’s the steps JR has to make for this rebuild to have a chance at working.
1. Tell KW to stay out of White Sox business. Let Hahn build his team w/out KW sticking his two cents into every decision .Thanks for 2005, now go fly a kite & shut the hell up.
2. Be transparent w/the players & fans. I know this is a stretch, especially for the Sox, but you have a chance to rebuild a team & a dying fan base. Be the anti-KW, don’t let your ego get in the way, I think fans will react better to some honesty & less of the cloak n’ dagger BS thats been in place the last 15yrs. Which leads to point number 3.
3. New young talent. As much as i can’t stand the team on the North side, they have a young likable team thats fun to watch. Can the same be said for the Sox? The simple answer is no. The last time we had a talented young team is the early 90’s w’the likes of Thomas, Ventura, McDowell, Fernadez, Bere & Alvarez.
4. Point 3 can only happen if you make the commitment to point 1. Let Hahn do his job. Now can he get the best talent for the value of Sale, Quintana, Frasier, Melky & Robertson? Let’s hope so. You can always say NO & wait for another over or start the season w/two of the best Lefties in MLB. Let the Garage Sale start. I can’t end w/out a couple trade proposals, again this is totally armchair GM’ing.
Trade1: Sale & Fraiser to the Dodgers for:Julio Urias, Bellinger, Deleon, Calhoun, Barnes & Rhame. Seems like a lot to give up if your the Dodgers, they lose 3 of their top 10 prospects & a young controllable pitcher in Urias. Barnes is a stopgap until Collins pushes him out. Rhame is a perfect High risk reward pitcher that Coop loves to work with. The Dodgers get 3yrs of Sale & Kershaw together (pretty nasty) & they get a little younger at 3b with some more power in the lineup. Now i’m sure the Dodgers will tell Hahn you can’t have DeLeon & Urias, the building blocks are Urias, Bellinger & Calhoun, after that you can negotiate.
or
Sale & Abreu to the Red Sox: for their scouting director & farm system 🙂 this deal would be crazy, so i won’t even try & speculate…Guessing names like Moncada, Benintendi, Devers & Kopech will be kicked around. Let that dream deal sink in, scary.
Trade2: Quintana & Courtney Hawkins to the Braves for: Albies, Wentz, Maitan & Weigel Braves get a stud pitcher to open their new ballpark & is controllable for the next 3yrs. Hawkins is a former #1 pick who needs a change of scenery & has some serious offense potential w/the right coaching. The Sox round out their middle infield w/the addition of Albies & get a lefty pitcher for the future. The key to the deal is Maitan, tons of talent at such a young age. You let him learn to play in the minors until he forces your hand. Brave’s lose their #2, #6  prospects, but keep Swanson. Is it a little light for the Sox?
You still have Robertson, Lawrie & Melky to dangle out there too. Again, it’s fun to armchair as a GM w/these deals. Hahn’s in a good spot, let teams compete for his attention & see what they can offer. If it’s not what your looking for move on & see what the next team will do.
Albies, Newcomb, Anderson, demerite, sims or fried, and one of Ruiz, Riley, acuna, Ellis for sale.
Quintana to the redsox for Devers, Basabe and Owens. Robertson to either the Giants or national depending on who doesn’t get a closer for beede and Garcia or freede and Stevenson.
Frazier and Lawrie to the Dodgers for bellinger and de Jong.
Abreu to the Indians( I know everyone wants to say they won’t trade in the division but it’s the best offer they will get) for McKenzie, jones, and Logan ice.
Or
Abreu to the redsox( he’s cheaper and younger the EE) for Travis, ball and Johnson
Or
Abreu to the rangers for Guzman, Ragans and a ptbnl
Eaton to the cardinals for bader, jones and Gonzales
Cabrera and cash to the Giants or Kansas City for a ptbnl
Gives them a ton of prospects and a ton a salary freedom for later on and they still have Anderson, Rondon, shields, fulmer, Garcia
Those Quintana and Eaton deals are REALLY bad for the White Sox.
Jesus! No way the Braves give up that much for Sale alone. You’re asking for possibly our entire top 10 minus Touki and Maitan it seems.
If the Sox think they will get that kind of Haul just because Dave Stewart was so generous then they will be highly disappointed. Chapman was literally an auction as well. Like the Yankees probably had every contender at that time on the phone.
I don’t think teams will line up to meet that kind of pricetag for Sale unless their respective GM is ready to follow the Dave Stewart career path
.Sale may be the best available, but it’s not the same as teams being mid season looking for the one last piece to push them ahead of the pack when Chapman was acquired.