During the Winter Meetings, it emerged that the Astros had asked the White Sox about lefty Jose Quintana, and that the Astros believed the White Sox’ price to be too steep. Today, Peter Gammons tweets that the White Sox asked the Astros for big-league righty Joe Musgrove plus their top two prospects, righty Francis Martes and outfielder Kyle Tucker.
The White Sox’ ask continued their pattern of aiming high (which has worked twice so far this week) and suggests it might be true that, as has previously been reported, the White Sox see no pressing need to trade Quintana, who is controllable at reasonable prices through 2020. The 27-year-old Quintana has emerged as a workhorse, throwing 200-plus high-quality innings in each of the last four seasons. Last season, he posted a 3.20 ERA, 7.8 K/9 and 2.2 BB/9 in 208 frames.
The 24-year-old Musgrove had a successful rookie season last year, posting a 4.06 ERA, 8.0 K/9 and 2.3 BB/9 in 62 innings. Baseball America ranked him the No. 86 prospect in baseball heading into the season.
Martes has emerged as the Astros’ best prospect since arriving from the Marlins’ system in the Jarred Cosart deal in 2014. The 21-year-old posted a 3.30 ERA, 9.4 K/9 and 3.4 BB/9 in 125 1/3 innings at Double-A Corpus Christi in 2016, winning praise from MLB.com (which ranks him the No. 29 prospect in the game) for his 93-95 MPH fastball and filthy curveball.
Tucker was the fifth overall pick in the 2015 draft, and MLB.com now ranks him the No. 50 prospect in baseball. The 19-year-old held his own at Class A Quad Cities in 2016, batting .276/.348/.402, then hit very well in a small sample after heading to Class A+ Lancaster.
I cursed when i saw this post. Absolutely unreasonable.
Actually it’s not unreasonable at all. Musgrove must be the issue I’m guessing. But for a pitcher like Q that’s what you need to give up.
Agreed. Dude is severely underrated signed to a team friendly deal for the next 4 years. Meatheads look at his wins and losses and say he’s awful lol he’s had the worst run support over the past 5 years and the most no-decisions over that time.
In Quintana’s first 100 games started with the white sox 66 of those starts were no decisions. If you want to curse ALTUVE2017MVP, curse about that. I hope the Astros don’t make the trade and either don’t make the playoffs or get knocked out in the Wildcard game because of it.
He’s had absolutely horrific run support his entire career. The no-decisions mean nothing.
The no decisions mean he gave you more than 66 quality starts.
They want the number 1 and 2 prospects plus a ML arm. Martes is projected to be a TOR guy and is expected to make his ML debut in 2017. I think in a short amount of time, maybe as soon as 2018, martes will be a better pitcher than Quintana. I don’t think what they asked for is unreasonable, especially after getting the haul from the Nats and the Red Sox earlier this week. But if you are the Astros, this is pretty easy to pass on.
Boomer14, tell me how any pitcher in the American League can control how much the offense scores for him? Bottom line is the only thing he can control is his own numbers. Those are ERA, quality starts WHIP etc. he is one of the most underrated pitchers in baseball, and is well worth the asking price. 4 yrs on a cost friendly contract is a no brainer . Good luck finding anyone giving you a better deal in a trade for your return. Your paying that in any trade this year and bottom line is Houston needs rotation help. Your loss
baseballkings99 I think your misinterpreting boomers post. He’s saying JQ is giving quality starts, but no run support. He’s the most underrated pitcher in the AL.
I’m with altuve2017mvp. I love Quintana, but I don’t think passing on this really high price is going to be the difference between missing the playoffs. Musgroves is going to be a fixture in the rotation this year. Martes could as well by mid season. Both of them should be fixtures years to come. So just in those two guys, you are trading two potentially mid-to-top rotation pieces for one. And Musgroves has already proved he can be effective at the big league level.
Plus you can’t overlook Tucker who is a stud, and is viewed as the ‘Stros corner OF of the future.
Most of all, just because the Astros don’t make this deal now, doesn’t mean they don’t make a more palatable one in the future. The Astros are very comfortable being in a great position in July to make a deadline deal that puts them over the top. Just because you guys don’t know the Astros farm system well enough and you are only seeing the Quintana, Mustgroves-side of this deal, doesn’t mean it’s a horrible pass.
Sorry boomer misunderstood your first post
Baseballkings99 im a huge Quintana fan. I think you are misunderstanding me.
Ha all good
I think Boomer14 and baseballkings99 are arguing the same point: Quintana is a great pitcher and completely underrated.
The issue I had with this trade proposal is once again Hahn was going after more pitchers than position players in all of these trades. Someone needs to nudge him and tell him he needs at least 1 OF, a 3B prospect, 1B prospect and maybe catcher. Now I get that the pitching could also be flipped for position players, but I would like to see the Sox minor league system develop some position players.
Something they haven’t been able to do since the 90s, the early 90s. And who have the sox really developed as far as pitchers? Sale was in the majors the same year he was drafted. Q was signed by the sox in December and in the majors for good by may. The real travesty is how the Mets completely whiffed in him. But the point is they haven’t developed a single player. Rodon was supposed to follow in sales footsteps to a lesser degree and up till now has been underwhelming. Fulmer was pushed to move at the same pace as the previous two and hasn’t impressed in his first MLB stint. He flat out sucked. Burdi is being face tracked now too. The only way this team ever really turns the corner and is able to fully succeed is when Reinsdorf kicks the bucket and Williams takes his hands off the wheel and lets Hahn drive. Hahn can’t make a move without those two meatheads signing off on everything. Might be top ten worst owner in the game.
I agree. They had no reason to trade Easton or Sale without receiving huge hauls in return, which they got. Same applies to Quin, so they’ll set the price wherever they want, and if they don’t get it, they’ve got for years to try to get back to competing with him or trade him. No reason not too aim higher than he may be worth.
Thought what they got for Sale might have been to high, then what they got for Eaton was just wild. Considering the returns so far? What was asked of Houston was reasonable in my thinking. Hang onto Quintana. teams must be looking over his roster and making outlandish offers.
Agreed. I would fault the White Sox for asking. I also wouldn’t fault the Astros for refusing. Just because Boston and Washington overpaid, doesn’t mean Houston should.
That asking price is not an overpayment. Houston does not have the blue chip prospects that Washington and Boston could offer so there needs to be more high quality in a deal
Quintana’s surplus value is equal or more valuable than Sale due to the extra year of control
Hate to tell you Boston didn’t over pay. Prospects don’t all hit. Essentially moancada for sale is the deal cause he is pretty much can’t miss. The other guys may pan out and may not as well
Your smoking dope. Astros are flush with good prospects. The thing is the 3 they are asking for have been the same that teams have been asking for for 2 years, minus Kyle Tucker. If they looked into the Astros minors there are players to get a deal done. One where the Astros and White Soxs both win.
Since when does Q deserve someone’s best prospects in return? Keep smoking crack
Why do you think one of the top 20 pitchers in baseball isn’t worth a prospect ranked in the 15-25 range? If Martes is half the pitcher that Quintana is, it would be considered a huge success.
Not only one of the top 20-25 pitchers in baseball, but also a pitcher signed on an excellent team friendly contract
I hope the Astros don’t believe so, as a Tigers fan I really hope he leaves the central. Quintana is a stud and always seems to baffle our lineup. We can make contact, but never solid contact. Seemed like even the 2nd or 3rd time through the lineup we could get to Sale. Seemed to always be a rough day when facing Q though.
completely agree with you
Yea im wrong you all are right. I forget all the rings the white soxs have won with sale and Q in the rotation. What was i thinking. Throw in bregman as well….
Yes, because that’s the best way to judge their value. How many rings does Kershaw have? What about Trout? What about Correa, Altuve, Bregman, etc.?
I’m not a Sox fan, but this is a really weak argument. The Astros aren’t exactly swimming in rings, so it must be time to trade Altuve for whatever anyone offers right?
Maybe so, but the Astros have a legit chance to win a ring in 2017 with a better staff supporting a great lineup. Pitching wins championships and the Astros are not at the same level with the Indians or Red Sox.
Btw-Don’t get too cocky. The Astros have never won a ring in their entire existence. They only reached the World Series once and had their hats handed to them by the White Sox in 2005…because of pitching!
I’m sure a bad offense, weak bottom or the rotation and poor bullpen had nothing to do with the White Sox not winning rings. It was probably all because of the excellent pitching by Sale and Q
You must keep Q he is the right age to keep and Abeau also young enough to be good when the team gets good
Wasn’t Sale also though?
I think there was more to Sale being traded though. For one, more spectacular, and an high draft pick. Quintana was signed as a Minor league FA.
Sale gets tons of K’s (also gave up a lot of homers); Quintana can have games with double digit Ks, but mostly uses deception and pitches to contact (like another ‘scrub’ player Mark Buehrle, but what did he ever do?/sarcasm)
Quintana has another year on his contract and is as even keeled as they come.
Sale whined about losing their 12 yr old ‘leader’ in Drake LaRoche in the spring and then took scissors to a uni he did not like right before the game.
IMO Sale was more temperamental and was no borrowed time when he told KW to ‘get the BLEEP out of our locker room’ back in the spring.
Sale has a higher reward, but IMO a higher risk that Quintana who just goes out and does his thing. Does not complain at all if there is a lack of run support, but still goes out there and pitches his game. Keep a good defense around him and he should still be able to win games.
I agree. The white sox traded their two biggest dbags and got a haul for them. Well except Brett Lawrie. He’s on the mt Rushmore of biggest bags in the game with Sean Rodriguez, Y. Ventura and angel pagan
Adam eaton is a class act. Was player rep to management and the MLB. Check out this link about him and tell me if u think he’s still a d-bag. google.com/amp/ftw.usatoday.com/2016/03/adam-eaton…
…and Eaton even more so. Not a logical argument for a team finally looking to tear things up instead of re-tooling or re-loading every off-season. If the White Sox want to extract the best prospects for this rebuild the organization needs to deal it’s best assets in order to accomplish this. That would be Sale, Eaton, Quintana and Abreu. The short term vets are as good as gone also but they won’t command the same level of talent.
It’s about turning one guy into 2 or 3. Taking. Chance that more than 1 of those guys “hits” and you’ve multiplied your assets
I would take that.
it the stros dont want to pay up for a guy with ace abilities under 5 years of control than have fun getting knocked out in the first round
Agreed!
They don’t want to give up Bregman, so that’s the price.
Bregman wasn’t mentioned, so your point is invalid. But since you brought him up, the White Sox would trade Q for Bregman straight up, so would probably every other GM but ours. Why? Because he impacts every game, and Q impacts every 5th game. You can’t value them against each other since you can’t compare a hitter vs a pitcher, however a hitter like Bregman holds more overall value.
Dig the salty sox fans projecting ill will for not getting every team’s top prospects.
Don’t even think they’ll make the first round
he only has 4 years of control
Four years of very cheap control is a huge bargain
Cool? That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that dewssox incorrectly stated that he has 5 years of control.
Don’t worry Astros fans! White Sux are trying to string arm you into thinking it’s Quintana or bust. There’s other starters out there that maybe don’t have Quintana pedigree as a lefty but you won’t have to give up a return like that.
This comment makes no sense. of COURSE you can get lesser pitchers for less…
Nah I get what you’re saying. Some of the comments earlier suggested, the Astros will suck in playoffs bc they don’t want to mortgage their future due to the way market currently stands. I think it IS worth mentioning there are other pitchers available that certainly fit their needs on paper while also costing them significantly less. They have a core of about 8 or 9 young/capable starters for next season, that said, not many are established but most will have that chance very soon. So I’m glad they didn’t ship away 3 great prospects for an experienced #2. They’re fully aware there is NOT an immediate rush to ship prospects for a controllable stud. And they know they can make a move during the season, if it doesn’t click well during the first half.
Sounding salty since your team will be sniffing the cellar all year. While his peripherals are appealing, the Astros aren’t going to trade their top pitching prospect and arguably their top hitting prospect for him. Musgrove would be easy to include, however there is no reason to mortgage the future for a guy who pitches every 5 days.
I think that’s a pretty fair price for a top 15-20 pitcher on a team-friendly contract. Houston has glaring holes and questions in the rotation, so they have to do something.
They do have something, but Keuchel has not proven consistent though obviously has a high-ceiling, while McCullers is another high-ceiling arm that is having a tough time taking the field. Quintana provides that durability and consistency that a young team needs to grow. ATL has recognized that but is addressing it by getting 1-year vets that are innings eaters (i.e. Colon, Dickey), and another with health issues that could very well eat innings too (Jaime Garcia).
By trading 1 mlb starter and a guy that has a real chance to be one? That makes no sense for the stros.. The ask isn’t crazy, but like with sale and eaton, it doesn’t make a lot of sense for a team to subtract from their MLB roster to add a player like Q.
One ESTABLISHED guy who CAN pitch for a guy that MAYBE can pitch in the majors? The correct answer is Yes if you want to win sooner than later.
“”glaring holes….have to do something.”
We have a lot of depth in our rotation; while we would love to have an ace at the top, it’s not going to happen at the expense of all 3 of these critical pieces.
Luhnow has already said it would take an overwhelming offer to move any player that is going to contribute significantly in 2017. Quintana alone is not an overwhelming offer.
In the end it’s not about what we feel is a fair deal. It comes down to Luhnow and the rest of the organization’s view of their needs.
Luhnow fully intends to use Musgrove and Martes in the 2017 rotation at some point during the year. He also views both Martes and K Tucker as untouchable, ala Bregman.
I don’t see Luhnow making a move anytime soon. The price demands are insane.
The most coherent post I’ve read on this topic. Just because HOU doesn’t wanna pay up doesn’t mean they wont make the playoffs/get bounced in the first round. I feel that they will be very competitive with or without him.
The price is too high in their mind and subtracting from parts that will contribute to the team this year makes little sense. Even if it is a player like Q. Its not a disrespect to him, its just not what the Astro’s need to drop their most valuable assets on.
Thanks for the kind words.
I agree completely and people take things entirely too personally. It seems that several Sox fans keep commenting how the Astros will be one and done in the playoffs, and maybe so, but their team won’t be within 15 games of .500. Our lineup is probably the deepest in the AL and a playoff rotation of Keuchel, McCullers, and whomever would be slotted 3rd will be highly competitive. Quintana would look good in that 3rd spot, but the reality is that McHugh can easily be dominate as he’s proven many times.
I’ll never value a SP the way everyone else does, and mainly because they contribute only 20% of the time. If a SP dominated every start then that would be one thing, however they are typically good only 60-70% of the time (even the best ones), so in theory they only have a positive effect on about 12-14% of the games.
What would you say is reasonable ? What if they threw in Nate Jones as well ??
No way would I do that as a Sox fan. Nate Jones has good value now and could skyrocket this deadline.
Agreed, plus if the Sox trade Robertson I see Jones being the closer at least until the AS break if not sticking around longer.
Jones has considerable value in his own right. That is a very fair asking price for four cheap seasons of Quintana
Do it Astro’s , all of those Guys are unproven, your getting a “Star” Major League Pitcher , Just Do it !
Theo got carried away the time for slowing down and see what you got now that can help the future is now. I bet DJ Lamioa was a Cub
I don’t think this is really a great point…
If Theo doesn’t trade Lemahieu, he also doesn’t trade for Arrieta, Hendricks, Russell, Rizzo, Strop, Edwards, Montero, Grimm, or Woods.
i’m biased, but that return looks really fair. astros should stick to the free agent market if they think every prospect they have is untouchable. Q’s value will only get higher now that he’s out of sale’s shadow.
Sounds like a pretty fair deal.
I wonder if Gerrit Cole could fetch a similar return.
Quintana is better than Cole and under control for more years. So no.
I tend to agree because Cole is coming off a down year and is a Boras guy, but…is Quintana better than 2015 Cole? Forget the contracts, etc.
2015 Gerrit Cole, but I doubt 2016 Gerrit Cole could equal a Quintana return.
I think Cole is as likely to be traded as McCutchen in the next 365 days.
Pirates have to hope both of those guys bounce back and can bring a large return.
The Pirates TV deal expires in 2019, so hopefully, they can keep the rest of the young core intact and sign them long term after those two trades.
Quintana season in and season out has been a great pitcher for the past 4 seasons, period. I scoff at those saying ‘well Quintana in 16 vs this or that pitcher in one of the last few years’… Quintana is as steady as they come, no injuries, and even keeled and a good team mate. You could not say all of that about Sale.Even had a better WaR than Sale this past season.
That’d be a hefty price. I could possibly give up that package for Archer, but not Quintana. For Quintana, I’d be comfortable giving up Musgrove, Tucker, Fisher and Gustave. Or Musgrove, Tucker and Feliz but Martes would be off limits for me. Definitely not Martes and Tucker.
It’s very weird that you value Archer over Quintana, he has a slightly better contract but is 8 months older and quite a bit worse
The love for Quintana has gone to far.. solid, not a season changing player.. everyone devalues prospects now, yea it’s 3 “unproven” guys for a “proven” starter.. there is no surplus value in the deal, astros would be better off keeping there guys
Have you been living under a rock? Prospects are overvalued SIGNIFICANTLY more than they are undervalued these days.
Quintana has been a top 20 pitcher for years, if he’s not game changing there are like 5 pitchers that are
Tell that to the nats..
Wow, you’re basing your statement off of one whole trade? Not to mention that, according to all accounts, they aren’t nearly as high on Giolito anymore compared to what others think. And their rotation is pretty locked up with Scherzer/Strasburg/Roark/Ross/Gio. Obviously pitching prospects aren’t as valuable to a team with that kind or rotation locked up.
Quintana has been better than Archer every single season and consistently puts up 200 innings along with a sub 3.50 era with crappy run support
Musgrove or Reed + Martes + Tucker is a fair ask in a trade for Quintana. He won’t be dealt for a return less than that
Not sure I’m following your reasoning here…. Yes, Archer has 5 years of control to 4 years of Quintana. But future value that far off is always a bit discounted by the team acquiring the major piece (in this case Q or Archer). There are too many variables to say player X will be great that far into the future, and wins now matter more than wins 5 years down the road, because you never know what unforseen turns your franchise will take. I just don’t buy Archer being more valuable than Quintana. Quintana has been criminally underrated for three seasons now. He projects to be a top 10 starter next season, and even if you don’t buy into projections, he’s been slightly more consistent than archer over the last 3 years, while making half of his starts in one of the most hitter friendly parks in baseball. I’m not saying Q is exponentially more valuable than Archer, it’s just their values are about the same in my opinion
Archer & Q have basically the same numbers… with Q in a hitters park.
Q is 6’1 220 lbs lefty who doesnt rely on power pitches, Archer is a rail thin 6’3 190 lbs righty who does… Q is the much safer investment.
I’d bet the majority of GM’s around the game disagree
The White Sox, at some point, need to add position players, which they have a lack of, into these asking prices for their tradable assets,wouldn’t you think?
At this point White Sox need to get the best prospects they can
They already had pitching. What good is a rebuild if you’re merely repeating a bad situation three years from now (lack of positional talent/offense)?
Agreed, Now, it could be that the Sox could flip pitchers later for a position player prospect or two, but really they need to focus on getting some more position player prospects in their system.
It’s meaningless the pitching they had when they are replacing the 2 pitchers that made the rotation good. Rondon will probably be good for them for awhile but he hasn’t shown star level performance, and they have very little in terms of pitching prospects. When you are 2-3 years away from possibly putting together a competent team the worst thing you can do is go for need (which btw pitching is for them) over BPA
Rondon? He is a reliever for the Cubs. Rodon could be an ace (I said could not sure on him) but if Quintana does stick around the rotation is not as bad as people think. Plus there are also 1 year rentals as well (nevermind they have two guys in the minors in Hansen and Burdi who could be up in a season, if not this season.
Zack Burdi, the White Sox second first round pick (#26) last June would have been promoted to the White Sox active roster in September had the team been a contender, just like Chris Sale was back in 2010 when he was drafted.
Burdi made it all the way to AAA in his dominant first pro season as a short reliever. He is the likely White Sox closer at some point in 2017 or 2018 once David Robertson, and perhaps Nate Jones, are ultimately dealt. He possesses a 75 grade fastball which has touched 101 on the radar gun, as well as a 60 grade slider. With a 55 grade changeup also, he has a chance to become a starter at some point with better control.
I agree, they should ask for tucker fisher sierra and Hernandez
Tucker is a very good prospect, but he alone ois not a good enough prospect to centerpiece a Quintana deal. The package you proposed is way below the return for Chris Sale
I’d love it if that was the deal, but that asking price is way low.
I take what Gammons says with a grain of salt.
This is a good point tho, Gammons has gotten a lot wrong the last few years
Especially when he said the league would dissolve the Angels and move the Athletics to Anaheim.
He needs to go away.
He has good stories though…
I actually think this is light if true. There are zero elite prospects in those 3. There is a strong chance Musgrove is just a back end starter, Martes and Tucker have very high ceilings but Martes in particular is a huge bullpen risk, Tucker has yet to hit upper levels. Quintana is a top 15 pitcher that is going to turn 28 in like a month under contract for 4 more years at 36.35 milion total. If he was a free agent this year and only wanted a 4 year deal he would easily get 100 million+. He has tremendous trade value.
Depends how you define elite. Tucker and martes are both huge, huge gets. If you think otherwise, well, I simply don’t know what to say to that.
They are good top 25ish prospects with huge risks (especially martes). Neither should headline a deal for a star starter with a ridiculous bargain contract on the right side of 30.
Why is martes a “huge risk?”
So Marte, a righty who performed very well in the Texas League at age 19, is not an elite or top-level prospect? Matte is the reason the Astros were okay with the asking price for Ken Giles. Marte is also considered by many to be a better arm than Kopech, who was the strong #2 piece in the Sale trade.
I think “meh” of Musgrove, but the guy’s fastball command is very impressive. I don’t see him as SP5 material…maybe SP2/SP3 ceiling. I am not all that impressed with Tucker and an inflated Cal League statline, but he has decent tools.
Long story short, this is absolutely a fair ask for Quintana. It’s not realistic, but it’s fair.
Way to much for Quintana, I understand the wSox trying to get the most out of it but be real. That’s probably more then the rSox gave up for Sale.
None of musgrove/martes/tucker is on the level of yoan moncada
They don’t need to be because they are all good and together are better than yoan.
Also he isn’t a ace so he shouldn’t get the same level deal
He shouldn’t but he’s only slightly worse and in the top 15. I agree that Musgrove/Martes/Tucker>Moncada. But Moncada/Kopech/Basabe>Musgrove/Martes/Tucker with ease
Definitely not more than the Red Sox gave up for Sale.
Actually it’s not at all.
both moncada and kopech are better than any of the names in that astros package
Kopech is roughly on par with Martes, maybe a touch lower.
I’d say ok not to Musgrave and give me Martes, Tucker, Fisher and a prospect.
Not sure why you’d give that for Archer and not Quintana. Quintana has been worth 14.7 fWAR over Archer worth 11.5 fWAR over the last 3 seasons.
Looking at what it cost for Sale and Eaton, the Sox have every right to ask for that.
Archer supposedly isn’t being moved and there is no top of the rotation starters available.
quintana: 5.2 WAR and an era 125
archer: 1.8 WAR and an era 101
again if you dont want to pay than trade for a crappier pitcher. but the stros rotation is hot garbage.
That’s a one year sample size. Not fair to compare them based off of one year. Major league front offices won’t, so I’m not sure why you’re taking that approach. That’s like saying Kyle Hendricks is as good as David Price, or JA Happ is better than Sonny Gray
Agreed, but Quintana is a better pitcher than people give him credit for. He leads the lead in no decisions over the past 4 season. I blame the ineptitude of Robin Ventura for that more than Quintana. If Quintana could get the run support he would easily be at least a 15-20 win per season kind of pitcher.
Is Archer the better pitcher? I dunno, the numbers he had could be a blip or a trend.
Lol
Hot garbage? They ranked slightly above average even in a down year and with injuries to 3 of 5 starting pitchers. I wouldn’t call them garbage. If Lance can stay healthy and Dallas can get back anywhere near his 2015 cy young year they may surprise. Plus Mosgrove was a rookie who showed flashes at times. Marte is looking very good. McHugh is a good 4 or 5 guy. They would just fine with another good arm with the offensive upgrades they accomplished. Astros only average 4.4 runs last year. Average run support. Should see improvement. They could use an Ace but aren’t desperate for one.
Good comment 19astros. The Astros last month was brutal from the SPs, which did not include Kuechel or McCullers. Musgrove was also reaching his inning limit. They were still in the WC hunt while the while the sox, with their two all star pitchers, were trying to get to .500. An ace would be nice, hell we had one in 2015, but 2016 was not “hot garbage”…. And neither will 2017, especially if everyone stays healthy.
Don’t try to offer logic or reason, it will fall on deaf ears. He looked up ESPN stats (assuming he even did that) and deemed the Astros rotation garbage. I’ve watched Quintana pitch in person several times (I travel to Chicago very regularly), and I would take McCullers talent-wise over him in a heartbeat. Too bad Lance can’t stay healthy!
I went to the McCullers vs tanaka game this past year, the Yankees could barely get the ball out of the infield. I wish the guy would stay healthy all year. I agree with you, McCullers would have a sub 3.20 ERA over the course of a season imo.
I truly hope he doesn’t end up having a “what if” career.
In my opinion, that is too steep of a price to pay for Quintana. I understand that they may have fleeced other organizations, but as an Astros fan, I’m glad that they didn’t succumb to the Sox demands.
Do you not understand the value for a cost controlled ace? These pitchers are getting minimum 150 million on the open market, and you’re getting them at bargain rates while obtaining their prime years. Plus, Sale and Quintana have proven they can sustain that type of performance over the long haul, so that extra level of consistency also raises the asking price. Out of all starting pitchers, they’re two of the surest bets to repeat past performances out there….. And the package isn’t anything ridiculous. Musgrave is most likely a mid rotation starter at best, while Martes still has some scouts claiming he will be a bullpen piece. Tucker still hasn’t proven he can hit above A ball, and his numbers last year weren’t exactly world beating…. If anything, I’d call that a pretty fair offer
Cost isn’t the problem for Houston. They’d be MUCH better off moving for s guy like verlander and keeping martes and Tucker. They can take a contract like that, no problem.
Verlander is aging, whereas Quintana is 28 and in his prime. Bank on Verlander all you want, but it’s a pretty easy guess who will have better numbers over the next 4 years
What do you think it would take to get Verlander? Your 30th ranked prospect? Any team trading controllable starting pitching is going to want top talent coming back. Especially front of the rotation starting pitching.
How is cost not a problem for Houston?
Cost is always relevant to every team, but it’s especially important for a team like the Astros. They haven’t had an opening day payroll over $71 million since Jim Crane bought the team in 2011. They’ll pass it this year, but it’s still likely going to be under $100 million. They’ve been in the bottom three payrolls in each of the past five years – what tells you that they have no problem spending money?
If Verlander’s contract is no problem, why didn’t they sign Rich Hill this year? Or Greinke, Cueto, Price, Zimmermann, Samardzija, or Kazmir last year? Or Lester or Scherzer the year before?
And Verlander has a pricey contract, but he was arguably the best pitcher in the league last year. If he’s moved, it’s still not going to be for free.
With what’s going on now in the A.L. Central with the White Sox in full rebuild mode and the Royals on the verge, it makes little sense that Justin Verlander gets traded this offseason. The Tigers would be wise to hang on to their veterans and move them in the summer if the team shows little sign of being a viable postseason contender.
I think the bigger issue is that the Tigers will not get what they want for Verlander unless they eat a lot of his salary.
The Tigers front office announced that their transaction office is “Open for Business…” However, I suspect that they re not as open as we originally assumed. With the division looking weaker, they may just pick up a CF and L-RP they need for their final push.
I think that the key word in your response was “ace”. I would be comfortable with relinquishing those prospects for an “ace”, but Quintana is not an “ace”!
I guess a guy who has been a top 15 starter in all of baseball over his last 600 ip isn’t an ace in your book. Maybe we have different definitions of an ace. Just because he doesn’t throw 99, it doesn’t mean he isn’t an ace. I remember a guy named Greg Maddux who didn’t do anything particularly sexy, but he was one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived. You don’t need guady strikeout numbers to be an ace in my book. I think being in the top 10 percent of your profession, like Quintana has been over his last three years, is enough to warrant an ace label
Absolutely. It also didn’t help that “Q” has pitched in the shadow of Chris Sale his entire career. Sale may have been the White Sox top “ace”, but where’s it written that a rotation can’t have multiple ones? It’s happened throughout the history of MLB and Sale/Quintana both qualify.
Btw-There are numerous clubs in MLB where “Q” would be the top dog if in their rotation. The Astros could be counted among them.
“Quintana isn’t an ace, Keuchel is” – Astros fans.
Even with his Cy Young Award in 2015 there should be little doubt who the better pitcher is.
Jose Quintana > Dallas Keuchel
That’s debatable. Keuchel had two dominant seasons. Quintana has had more solid seasons. If I had to choose between the two, I’d take Keuchel. He is a big game pitcher. His stats were deceptive last season. While not dominant, he pitched late into many games and gave up a lot of runs at the end of his starts. Just ran out of gas and had shoulder problems. He’ll be fine.
I’m not disputing the numbers that Quintana has produced, but some people just throw the term “ace” around around too much for me. Not all teams have a true “ace”. I would include my Astros in that group! In my opinion, the package requested should be “ace” worthy. If the market has gotten that tough, then I agree with the front offices choice to stand pat for now!
Why is this even a debate? Dallas Keuchel is a better pitcher when he’s healthy. Quintana is a hell of a pitcher and durable. They’re both valuable. But if I had to pick one to pitch in a must win game, I’d pick Dallas because he’s a big game pitcher.
Dalla Keuchel has had one great year in his career. That’s wrapped in between one good year, a couple bad years, and an average at best year. Stop overrating Keuchel because he won 1 Cy Young award.
And I love when people make comments like “when he’s healthy” or “if healthy.” The fact that he can’t stay healthy takes away from his value. Unlike Quintana, who actually can stay healthy and perform all year every year. That’s a HUGE advantage for Quintana.
Fact is, Jose Quintana has never missed a start since becoming a fixture in the White Sox rotation in late May of 2012. He has pitched at least 200 innings in each of his four full seasons in the rotation, has been remarkably consistent in ERA (3.51, 3.32, 3.36, 3.20) and in WAR (5.4, 3.5, 4.0, 5.2) while pitching in one of the more hitter friendly parks in all of MLB.
Oh please, Keuchel was hurt for a part of one season. It’s an overreaction to state that he can’t stay healthy. Keuchel is a better pitcher. That must sting a little bit, but it’s the truth. Don’t worry, you’ll get some other team to give you their best prospects for your pitcher, but it won’t be Houston.
Which pitcher is better again? Since the start of 2014 here are their stats.
Keuchel: 600 ip 3.21 era 3.28 fip, 7.59 k/9, 2.20 bb/9, 0.72 hr/9
Quintana: 614 IP, 3.29 era, 3.19 FIP, 7.85 k/9, 2.14 bb/9, 0.70 HR/9
Quintana is also a year younger and comes with two extra years of control at a significantly lower cost. Think about what you would expect back in a trade for Keuchel, now double it to get an idea of what Quintana is worth.
Your argument is based solely on the fact that there are two extra years of control for Quintana, and you somehow think that makes him worth twice as much in return. The stats shown are nearly identical their salary this year is nearly identical as well. Keuchel’s salary next year will also most likely be in the same range as what Quintana will be getting then too. Your logic makes zero sense to say he’s worth double, but as this thread has proven, there are a lot of homers who highly overvalue their players.
Clearly all of you White Sox fans value your pitcher far more than all of the experts who run these teams. Teams were willing to pay a top return for Sale because he is a legitimate ace, but they won’t be getting the same return for Quintana.
I’ll agree that both players are basically the same, so who do you think is more valuable below?
Contract A, 29 years old, 2/$22+mm or
Contract B, 28 years old, 4/$38mm with only 2 years and $16mm guaranteed.
The Quintana contract is exactly why teams value young players and prospects so highly. You are hoping to get above average production for below average cost. The difference with Q and prospects are, you have a fairly reasonable expectation for the results to expect, unlike prospects where even the top guys fail more than they succeed.
If the Astros really are looking for sustained success, contract B is very attractive. You may not like to hear it, but contracts and salary matter to every team for every player. And I’m not a fan of either team.
The two additional years of cheap control absolutely make him worth a ton in a trade
The White Sox are not going to be dealing Quintana for anything less than a stellar return. Mark my words
Then keep your “ace”, and Houston will keep their best prospects. Houston doesn’t need anyone at this point, it’d just be gravy.
Four four years of cheap control I don’t think that is an unreasonable asking price at all. Why should the Sox trade Quintana for any less than a return like that? Quintana would instantly give the Astros a reliable #1 or #2 starter
Why is it steep? Quintana is proven and there is no guarantee any of those guys will be good major leaguers
we have james shields if you dont want to be cheap with your specs
Shields is addition by subtraction for the Sox, lol. Just like Danks, LaRoache, and Dunn were.
Bucket of bubble gum >>> Shields
Closet full of old Sale uniforms >>> Shields
Yoan Moncada autographed baseball >>> Shields
its called sarcasm kid.
I feel like the bucket of signed balls joke is getting old, but that might be just me.
It’s been old for awhile.
C’mon Cash… Severino, Sheffield and Judge. Wrap it up and bring Quintana back to the Bronx.
You guys are better off waiting a year, assessing your young talent some more, then make a push in 2017. You will have a better idea of what your youngsters can do at the major league level, thus giving you more information in regards to where you should spend some money in free agency, and who exactly you should attack on the FA market. The yankees best case scenario is a wild card at this point, and you’ve already got a competitive field
*trade market, not FA
Considering age, contract, and historical stats for Quintana I don’t think that asking price was too steep. Astros need pitching, they have their hitting core together and Bregman was not part of the package, that should have been a slam dunk for the Astros. As a Rangers fan I’m sure as hell glad they didn’t pull the trigger on it, I’m still hoping Rangers make a play for him as well but definitely don’t want to go up against him 5-7 times a year for the next 5 years
Far from a slam dunk. Quintana is a good get, but they still lack that “ace.”
Martes could legitimately be that. I don’t care what his prospect ranking is. He’s got nasty stuff, polish, and is near MLB ready. He throws a mid to high 90’s fastball, has a plus curve/slider (I say it like that because he calls it a curveball but it’s more like a slider) and a good change up.
Musgrove, Fisher, Whitley, Daz? Ok. Sure. Don’t love it for Houston, but it’s tolerable. Musgrove was a top 100 guy last year and would surely be ranked even higher this year if on the charts. Whitley and fisher are both also top 100 prospects. Elite prospects? Not really. But some real quality depth for a starter who is also not elite, but very good.
Zero chance Houston gets to keep Martes and Tucker in a Quintana deal. Sox are not stupid.
Lets be honest here. The chances that Martes ends up being as good as or better than Quintana are what? 5?% at best?
Quintana is and has been a top 20 mlb starting pitcher year after year. Sox won’t deal his cheap four years of control unless the return is excellent.
why would the sox trade for a guy who has a 5% chance of being good?
What about the other pitching prospects they got? Do they have a 5% also? Or since their on your team it’s 95%?
Like most fans, you’re criminally underrating Quintana, and you’re overrating the value of your own prospects…. As to the “not elite” label, he’s a top 15 starter in all of baseball over his last 600 IP. There are theoretically 150 rotation spots in today’s game. That puts him in the top 10 percent. Being in the top 10 percent of your profession would be what most reasonable people refer to as elite
What’s more valuable? One great starter or two solid starters? An ace can only pitch every 5 games, while two solid pitchers pitch 40% of the games. It’s not always black and white.
You do realize that they’d grab another starter from somewhere, right? And unless it’s James Shields, he’d probably be average or SLIGHTLY below average. And at that point, one great starter + one slightly below average starter is much more valuable than 2 “solid starters.” Also, say what you want about the regular season, but once the postseason comes around, the great starter will be SIGNIFICANTLY more valuable than the solid starters.
Agreed. It’s an overpayment but not egregious, sounds about the right price.
I think the inclusion of Tucker is what negated a deal from being completed to be honest. I’ve yet to see him but he’s supposedly considered “special” and projects to be a stud big leaguer. Obviously it’s a 50/50 shot, but if he’s that special he’s worth holding onto.
Of course the rSox gave up more, They got a much better pitcher. wSox should wait until the trade deadline I think they would get what they need then
Maybe risk a freak accident to Q. I bet they’re definitely trying everything in their power to move him in the next couple months.
They better hope Moncada is the real deal as well, I think he is but we shall c,
fangraphs.com/blogs/the-price-for-jose-quintana-sh…
Please read this article to understand why Quintana’s price tag should be sky high
I think it’s a reasonable trade package, if the goal is to win the World Series this year. However, if the goal is to win the division 8 out of the next ten, then the Astros should pass.
My guess is that Jim Crane/Lunhow want to be perennial contenders. If the window was closing, this would be the right move.
Without extensions, you would get 6 years from two prospects who have potential or 4 years from a proven front line pitcher. Being a perennial contender is still possible with Quintana if they made this move. What if one of the prospects ends up in the bullpen?
Speaking of extensions, I would love to see Crane/Lunhow spend $500 million on Correa, Altuve, Springer, and Bregman.
That’s the thing some fans don’t get. The Astros are not making a move to go all in for this year, they have a good window of contention and the idea is to build up to a title winning club. So some risks that other clubs make to win this year doesn’t really apply.
And that’s the thing that other fans don’t get. Trading for Quintana isn’t “going all in for this year.” He has 4 cheap years of control. And unless they’re giving up Bregman, I wouldn’t consider that “going all in.” Even then, they still have options behind him. They have so much young talent on the big league club already that trading away a few prospects is NOT mortgaging the future by any means.
I don’t think this trade would be going all in, since it’s 4 year player.
But if Martes hits and Musgrove becomes a fixture, that gives the Astros a ton of flexibility for years. Plus Tucker in 2 or 3 years.
Except that the young talent they asked for are coming from positions that we do NOT have solidified for the next several years. While Martes/Quintana could be a wash, we do not have any true stud blue chips in the OF outside of Springer, and Tucker is the only one in the system. Fisher is a good player, but he’s far from a blue chip prospect.
Throw in losing Musgrove as well and you’ve weakened your rotation/staff overall with the loss of Musgrove and Martes (expected to be a significant contributor this season), and replacing with only Quintana. That equates to a net loss overall.
I’d propose a different trade. Franklin Perez and Reed for Quintana. That’s our 4th and 5th best prospects and it gives them a highly rated pitcher and a power bat. If they don’t like it, then move on.
Haha trying to play hard ball when the Sox have leverage is not going to work.
Think about it from the Sox perspective. Would you accept that horrible offer of Perez and Reed for Quintana? A deal has to work for both teams.
Musgrove/Martes/Tucker is a very reasonable asking price for a TOR starter under control for 4 cheap seasons
I think I might have done the deal if I’m the stros. The everyday lineup is too good to not put some pitching with it, 4 years lines up nicely with their players taboot. I still believe with that starting staff they’re the third best team in that division, ala the marlins last year, if they’re lucky.
Their pitching staff was 5th in WAR last year, and they’re losing only Neshek and FIster, who aren’t much of a loss. They’re projected to be the best in the division in both starting staff and relief staff. I’m kinda curious why you feel their pitching isn’t enough to win the division.
I don’t understand a number of the comments. This is absolutely a reasonable ask, especially as a starting point for negotiations. But it’s also very reasonable for the Astros to decide that this isn’t in the best interest of their organization. I find the vitriol bizarre.
Are we forgetting that “prospects’ are “suspects”? Anyone who saw Moncada play last year saw somebody who had such a disinterested style of play, I thought Pedroia was going to wack him. Kopeck has all kinds of off-field issues. 5 years from now, Basabe might have been the best “get”.
Giolito? Dropping off the radar faster than ice at 90 degrees. Dunning? considered an overdraft when he was taken. Lopez? Got 3rd starter written all over him.
Not saying these guys are bums, just that they have holes in their games. White Sox did best they could; what the heck, they aren’t going anywhere even WITH Sale and Eaton. Might as well take a shot.
Return from Astros would be light, IMHO; Q really has been the most unheralded pitcher in MLB for years. If he was a FA, he’d be looking a HUGE money; not Kershaw’s, but a lot closer than you think. AND he pitches in a hitter’s paradise.
They should hold out for the best return. I’m not sure Astros offer is the best they can get. Musgrove is “meh”; you should always worry when scouts are divided on weather Martes’s a starter or reliever. And not sure that Tucker ever develops much power, and has little speed.
Saw a piece on Giolito on MLB Network. The spin rate on his fastball is well below that of an average MLB starter. He threw 278 fastballs and the hitters made contact on all but 13. He only got 13 swings and misses on his fastball. That’s alarming.
This from a guy whose claim to fame is his fastball.
So glad the deal with the Pirates for Cutch fell through. That deal didn”t have Lopez, who I did want with Joe Ross. Just the two suspects.
If Quintana is so awesome then you should enjoy watching him pitch for the Sox. Sure, there is a chance none of the prospects go on to have meaningful careers, but they also don’t all have to turn into superstars either for them to be solid contributers to a winning club. Tucker’s power will most likely come with time, he’s still really young. I haven’t heard much about Martes being a bullpen pitcher and Musgrove is better than “meh”. If the Sox got that package they’d be jumping up and down. Face it, the Sox aren’t holding Houston hostage. The Sox are obviously going all in on a rebuild and need a trade to happen more than Houston does. Hopefully they find the right package from someone, but in no way shape or form does Houston owe Chicago anything.
I believe that was the scouting report projection on Frances Martes (who just turned 21) two years ago. Before his secondary pitches developed into more nastier compliments to his devastating FB. Martes is the #5 ranked RHP prospect in baseball; #29 ranked prospect overall. He has more control of his pitches than Lance McCullers did at this stage of development. Calling Musgrove “meh” doesn’t even come close to accurately describing him. He finished 4-4 with a 4.06 ERA while turning out really good performances against the Cubs, Dodgers, and Rangers down the stretch. Quintana would be a very good pick-up for the Astros. He is highly durable and would slide into the Astros rotation as their #3 starter behind Keuchel and McCullers. I can see why the Sox asked for Musgrove-Martes-Tucker. I can also see why the Astros ultimately passed. Musgrove and Martes are two solid starting pitchers that are expected to contribute in 2017. I don’t like the idea of the Astros going through a rebuilding effort like the Sox are now then turn around and trade the fruits of that rebuild to other teams. The Gomez and Giles trades probably left Luhnow a little gun shy as they turned out to not be prudent moves. Astros should stick to the plan of developing a pipeline of talent to the big league club. The Astros have arguably the best infield combination in MLB with Bregman, Correa, and Altuve. A rotation that includes Keuchel, McCullers, McHugh, Musgrove, and Martes gives the Astros a solid starting 5 with nice depth. Pass on Quintana. Let the Sox rebuild around him.
Houston is an obvious suitor, but the Sox have all the leverage as they do not have to move Quintana this offseason
Martes has yet to pitch above AA ball, you can’t pencil him in to contribute in 2017 that easily
If I’m Jeff Luhnow, I let the season unfold a bit and wait til close to trade deadline to add an elite arm at that price.
The price is going to be higher at the deadline
Maybe, though there’s a chance Keuchel bounces back, and Quintana is a luxury. Or Martes takes the majors by storm and is worth more the Q himself. Or Q gets injured and wouldn’t help. Or Altuve and Correa tear ACLs and they won’t compete this year anyways. Prices are higher at the deadline because performance and playoff chances are more certain. I don’t fault the white sox for making this their asking price, but I don’t blame the Astros for turning it down. Their staff should be upper third in the league as it is, and their offense should be among the best.
There are going to be a lot of free-agent starting pitchers at the end of the year. Those players are going to be the one to be target, not Quintana. They will be cheap because they won’t have much left on their deal.
Never assume that anything will come cheap at the deadline. Impact rental players can be VERY expensive…see what the Yankees received in return for Chapman and Miller
I agree, martes and Musgrove should both contribute for them this year and possibly lock down rotation spots for next season.
At what point would Sox trade to Cubs? Great fit for Cubs and could offer Baez and prospects or stud prospects
I don’t see it. They are targeting essentially MLB ready pitching which the Cubs don’t have. They also probably don’t want the pr destruction if those prospects don’t pan out while extending the Cubs run. They have to many teams in play to target parts they want. Now if it’s an expiring contract they’d have no problem but what they have the Cubs don’t need.
I agree but if all other teams balk. Cubs don’t have the pitching but Have happ Jimenez candelerio Baez.
But that’s the thing they can hold onto him until they get what they want. Especially at the trade deadline there’s always that one team that get extremely desperate. Although once FA gets moving again I think we’ll get a clearer sense and see him moved.
Your probably right. If a team is sniffing wild card or gm going to lose his job if team misses will give farm for him.
I feel like the Pirates have the prospects to make a push for Quintana. And would fit perfectly in Pittsburgh with the rotation needs. Baffles me if the front office wouldn’t try or hasn’t tried for this, but instead ships prospects off to Toronto to dump Liriano’s affordable contract for an SP.
A rotation of
Cole, Quintana, Taillon, Kuhl, and Glasnow (or eventually kingham would make all the difference). They could compete with that, and for controllable years.
They have the chips to make it happen.
What do you think they could offer? Especially with Glasnow staying, I don’t see it.
Thats an easy deal if it where pirates. . they have a good farm system. hahn would ask for glasnow but would settle for bell,meadows,newman and hayes.
I would not trade bell, Glasgow, or Diaz. Bell
Glasnow
You wouldn’t trade a 26 year old minor league catcher that OPS’d under .600 in 25 AAA games last year?
I would avoid adding Diaz to a trade. Yes. He is an excellent defensive catcher and I find that to be extremely important. The reasoning as to why I feel the Pirates are tied to him (for now), is due to the stupid Liriano trade to Toronto where they gave up Reese. To me, that trade was idiotic.. on so many levels. But I digress. So yeah – my reasoning for keeping him is because we don’t have the depth there. If Cervelli goes down, Diaz starts. Not Stewart.
What about –
Meadows, Newman, Hayes,
This keeps cutting off half of my post… add Brault to that.
Im gonna make it simple for stros fans and my sox fans. Houston you need ace quality young starting picthing that is under control for the next 4 years. That means a 4 year window of contention for the playoffs and a shot to beat boston, your hated rivals, the rangers and very soon and up and coming yankees, along with the indians who will be back in playoffs again. Not to mention by the time the playoffs roll around its the dominant picthing and defense that wins championships. you guys have tons of offense Here it is, You can keep martes and musgrove. we get bregman, tucker, cionel perez,and and daz cameron. or you can keep perez and give us cash considerations for bonus international pool.
Would have never guessed you were a Sox fan.
Bregman can be a star in the Astros infield for the next 15 years. They aren’t trading him for 4 years of any pitcher.
The package the Sox asked for is pretty close to fair.
Then you dont get him. Someone else will. . you guys just signed gurriel. his natural position is 3rd base and he is just as good and provides more pop from his bat. you wont miss bregman., trust me.
Listen, I’d give you Bregman to get Quintana on my team in a heartbeat. I’m a Pirates fan. But, I don’t think the Astros feel like helping us out like that.
Chris Carter and/or Tyson Ross is about as big as we get to dream.
Just saying, Bregman has more value.
The Astro’s are not thinking about 15 years from now. If they are then they are failing at their jobs. A team like the Astros should be looking to win a championship in 2-3 years, not 15.
They have premium young talent and lots of money. Their window is 10 years right now, not 2-3.
IF you want to never have a good chance to win it all, yes think about 10 years from now.
Sorry, but winning over a decade > winning over 2-3 years. They just got over 3 consecutive 100 loss seasons. It wasn’t to win win win all in one or two seasons. It was to set themselves up for a long period of time. You’ll see. The Sox will probably trade all their value for prospects, and you’ll see how hard it is to build from the bottom.
We don’t need an ace starting pitcher to win our division. TEX is going to take a back-seat this year. Too many pieces lost without the $ to repair. SEA the closest contender, but HOU is stacked.
Time is our biggest ally. We need to see where our rotation is at in the first few months. If we get into a place of desperation, pull the trigger on a deal that helps. Until then, no need to hit the eject button.
Who exactly is Texas losing? Desmond and Moreland!? Oh no!!! The astros might as well take a page from Pedro’s playbook and call the rangers their daddy…
Umm…
Desmond
Moreland
Beltran
D Holland
Tolleson
Harrell
Lohse
C Lewis
Plus, Choo is another year older and will have to start in RF everyday. They currently have no DH, and can’t afford a good one. Back end of starting pitchers: Perez, Cashner, Griffin. In short, Rangers have the weakest OF in the division. IF they can get healthy seasons out of Darvish and Hamels, those 2 will have to carry the rotation, as the rest are very suspect.
Like I said Desmond and Moreland.. y’all were 3-13 against Texas last year.. Texas owns you
Lol. Times are changin my friend.
Houston doesn’t “need’ an ace. They have Dallas Keuchel. Maybe you’ve heard of him. He won a Cy Young. How many players on the Sox have Cy Youngs? Sale doesn’t even have one. So no, Houston doesn’t need Quintana.
No one ‘needs’ Quintana. If you want a greater chance of winning you will likely win more with him than without him.
Fail…
You can’t be serious with that absurd trade proposal. Clearly you know nothing about baseball and you are a fair-weather fan. Houston wouldn’t trade Bregman for Quintana straight up, actually NO team would. I won’t even bother discussing your proposal having anyone else even involved.
Yes Houston signed Gurriel, however he won’t be manning 3B for us because Bregman is better. Gurriel is going to be spending time at 1B and in the OF. We won’t miss Bregman huh? He’s a better hitter than Gurriel right now, no need for us to wait and see how we won’t miss him.
Since we’re doing insane proposals and because Sox fans are so desperate to move Quintana, I will propose a trade. Quintana and Abreu for Gurriel and a PTBNL or $50 cash money. Since Gurriel is so amazing he will make up for Abreu and the PTBNL can slide in and replace Quintana.
Feels good to be a Tigers fan that has a ROY that just barely missed getting the ERA title and two other very young controllable pitchers that should be in the league for a long time.
Amazing what they value they got out of the Price/Cespedes rentals. Looks like the White Sox simply copied that strategy, but in their case, the players they gave up were hardly rentals.
The White Sox are apparently offering Quintana at a bargain price. No Bregman? Qunitana is worth those three plus Bregman. Here’s why:
2012: 22 Games Started, 4 starts of 5+ ER
2013: 33 GS, 2 starts of 5+ ER
2014: 32 GS, 4 starts of 5+ ER
2015, 32 GS, 3 starts of 5+ ER
2016, 32 GS, 4 starts of 5+ ER
The guy is hugely consistent, and is a lock to give you 28 starts of 4 runs or less, on a team with a good offense, that’s nearly unbeatable. And he’s on a 4/38 contract? The guy’s value is almost the same as Sale’s imo.
Amen brotha! Someone else will pony up. Rockies, pirates, yankees,or braves.
let them. i don’t care if we lose out on jose.
He might not even be worth Bregman by himself. Bregman could be a 5 WAR player soon. You’re overselling how good Quintana is. If he was as good as Sale, then maybe you’d have an argument, but Bregman plus Houston’s two top prospects? Nah. That’s crazy talk..
Because he is that good. He keeps teams in games. he has lost games due to lack of run support, im talking 1-0,2-0,and at times 3-0.. keeps the ball in the park. He is an ace and number one starter for many teams right now. Marlins,pirates,rockies, angels, mariners, padres,etc….. But its ok good luck finding a guy that cheap who is a stud. In the mean time we will hold onto him while someone else ponies up for him. and someone will. You guys can miss the playoffs again because of pitching. Have fun with that.
Interesting that a CWS fan is arguing so much to get rid of him.
It’s quite laughable how hurt their feelings are that the Astros management doesn’t view their beloved pitcher as much as they do. Clearly no other team does either…
Yanks have better pieces to give to the Sox, both Green and Severino have a WAR of 1.6 while Mustrave is only 0.7, add one of them to 3 prospects like Mateo, Judge, McKinney, Acevedo, and Tate. should get it done.
no sale is worth those 3 plus bregman. i would have taken the deal i think but then again im pretty sure all these people making these trade calls are GMs so they dont really know. They make it sound like Tucker is untouchable and martes they like alot.
i am glad that everyone on here is overpricing because they will all be shocked when its an average return.
Quintana is an ace. If he had any semblance of run support of the past 4 seasons he would likely have won about 15-20 games in those seasons.
Now, if the Astros do not want to give up a lot for him. Fine, lots of luck finding a guy with similar numbers that will not cost you a fortune. You think there are better pitchers? Well I’m guessing that anyone with a pitcher around Quintana’s talent is going to ask for the same, if not more. Then there are the intangibles: Good team mate, Even keeled, no injuries, and has a proven and consistent track record. Even Sale did not meet those traits (maybe a good team mate) As for those crying to not trade possible starters for a proven starter shows how little some people know IMO. A team like the Sox are rebuilding, it is likely that Quintana would be here maybe one more season before the Sox are ready (if the plan works BTW). A team like the Astros should be looking to win in the next 1-3 seasons. That is their window and if the team is one or two pieces away, you trade a bit of the future to win a title. It is simple as that.
The prices on SP will get cheaper the closer we get to FA18. Lots of talent up and coming. No need to get desperate and eject 2017 contributors and an elite hitter for 2019.
Agents will never let salaries for SP go down.
Talk to EE about that.
Edwin Encarnacion is not a pitcher
Starting pitcher salaries are set to explode in free agency soon, which makes a player like Quintana extremely valuable
On the open market he likely gets $30 million per for 6-7 years
well said.
You have mental issues if you think you’ll get ALEX FREAKING BREGMAN for Quintana let alone him along with those trio of prospects
Yes because according to you apparently all prospects are going to pan out and you cannot possibly trade potential for proven talent to win and make the playoffs.
That is fine, wait on Quintana (or anyone else) and guess what? The price will only rise come the AS break if the Astros are trying for the playoffs.
That doesn’t make sense at all. Pitchers soon to be FAs on teams that are out of contention only have a handful of starts remaining. Cost vs. the start of the season on such players is significantly less.
well said brotha
Actually you saying the Astros window is only 1-3 years prove what little YOU know. Look at our stud lineup and look up ages/contracts. The Astros are being built for the long haul and there was no interest in mortgaging the future for a guy who has an impact only every 5 days at best. He’d be a great addition at a lesser cost, and take out Tucker and I’d do the deal because then the deal still stings for both sides, however the opportunity cost is now closer to equal.
Yes, I said 1-3 years, because that is what most teams typically have as a window, despite their minor league systems or best efforts. All sorts of things can cause any ‘long haul’ plan to go out of whack: Injuries (including season and career ending), slumps, failure of prospects to pan out, another team in the division becomes a powerhouse as well. Any intelligent GM ( that is not rebuilding an org) knows you make moves to win sooner than later to win one WS. Most GMS realize that winning one WS alone makes it all worth it, not just making the playoffs 10 years in a row to get your keester handed to you every time in the playoffs.
How is a player like Brian McCann “built for the long haul” when he will be 33 for the 2017 season? Beltran will be 40 years old in 2017
Keuchel is a free agent after two more seasons…time is ticking
The Astros have a very good roster, but without pitching help I can’t see them going far in the playoffs, especially against rotation like Cleveland and Boston
Again I’ll say it. The people who leave comments on this App don’t have a clue.
Then don’t read the comments
I concur. We may all disagree and think each other’s view is nuts, but we all at least enjoy the banter and most do so respectfully. Sorry we don’t live up to your unobtainable knowledge of baseball!
Dodgers for bellinger, alvarez, Calhoun.
Nice, i like that offer, but i like this one better. Puig,bellinger, verdugo,calhoun,and alvarez. you get quintana, shields,and robertson if jensen doesnt resign.
What need do the dodgers have for Shields?
And on another point as much as I like Q, why would would the dodgers make that trade?They are flush Pitching wise and their Achilles heel has been developing and holding onto positional talent. So now they just depleted all three close to MLB positional prospects when they already have 10 SPs who made starts on their 40 man. It’s already a spot they need to thin a little so not only do you add Shields who’s big money but they already have Kaz,McCarthy,Ryu who are going to be next to impossible to move. I’m sorry Bellinger has to be untouchable and essentially is. He provides the dodgers the positional flexibility in which they’ll need this year considering Gonzo’s neck and back problems and Ethier’s inability to stay on the field. So yes you can keep Q and trade him elsewhere, and I understand he is essentially an ace, but as constructed the dodgers have more pressing needs.
What about Q, Frazier, Roberston and cash for Bellinger, Calhoun, Verdugo, Alavarez, Ruiz and Hansen.
hmmmm interesting but no cash. isntead we get the cash. we throw in cabrera for puig and one outfield prospect jacob may. prospect .
The dodgers are not going to trade for Quintana nor should they. Their pressing needs revolve around a RH bat. So whatever prospects people dream of having earmarked for Q are going to either Min or TB.
hmmm hmmm we have the best affordable right handed power bat available for 3 more years. Jose abreu.Plus he hits for high average. just saying.
It doesn’t matter seeing as Gonzo is un tradeable and has a partial NTC. It’s not happening.
Besides Eaton any other big prospect package the dodgers don’t match up well for a variety of reasons trade wise. I’m not even considering Sale because the Red Soxs were always going to obtain him if they wanted too.
Not worth it
If I’m Cashman I look at that the Musgrave 0.7WAR, Martes 29 top 100 and Tucker 50 top 100 and I make an offer of Severino or Green 1.6 WAR, Mateo 18 top 100 and choice of McKinney, Tate, Acevedo, or Fowler. I go get Quintana and the Yanks are contenders. They still have Torres, Frazier, Judge, Rutherford, and Sheffield coming up in the next 3 years. These players fit into what the Sox are trying to do.
No deal. If you want quintana, torres, gary sanchez , frazier, and rutherford. well throw in one of your old players in. melky cabrera.
Thre guys I gave you are better than the package they wanted from the Astros, that’s better than you will do from anyone else.
Green was bad last year, and outside of 1 year in AAA, he has never been really good… I do still like Severino’s potential, but he was brutal last year. His prospect status is quickly fading. Severino had a negative WAR last year, and Green’s was 0.2… That being said, WAR is not the way I’d value these pitchers. They are all relatively young with little big league experience. Their numbers so far only show a fraction of their actual value. Personally, I’d rank them Musgrove/Severino/Green. Any way you slice it, I don’t think any of them add THAT much value to the overall package. They are more like fillers (with potential to be more) for Q and/or Sale’s roster spot.
As for the prospects, I’m not in love with any of the ones you listed. Mateo is a good one rankings-wise, but I’m not THAT high on him. I’m not sold he’ll hit enough in the majors to be a legit asset. He’s a little over ranked IMO. The rest of the prospects are pretty mediocre at best (and I think McKinney is awful).
Martes/Tucker is worth more than any combination of the Yankee prospects you listed IMO. It’d probably take some combination of 2 of Frazier, Torres, Mateo, Judge, Rutherford, or Sheffield. I also kind of like Andujar, but I don’t think he has enough value to be the second piece in a Quintana deal. I think it’d be some sort of package of Severino/Green + Torres/Mateo + Frazier/Judge/Rutherford. That’s more inline with the Astros package depending on which guys from the package are chosen.
lmao! Listen i can get better guys from rockies and pirates.. Case in point yankees got a haul from cubs and indians for closers. not aces. Put it this way yankees have contracts coming off the books for several pitchers including cc sabathia. any gm in there right mind would want great young cheap picthing instead of paying an arm and a leg.
I don’t see it, I think the prospects I stated are more than anything the Astros are giving., we will have to wait and see. I think the Sox might hold on to Quintana anyway.
I am glad the Astros passed. JQ looks to be solid, so no argument on his credentials. But the top two pitchers in your system (who could turn into solid #2 guys) and the young man who was deemed to be the next TED WILLIAMS in Kyle Tucker is not as reasonable in the eyes of Lunow who brought these individuals into the franchise, as it is on paper. I think it was a smart pass.
I agree with everything except saying Kyle Tucker and Ted Williams in the same sentence. I know that isn’t an original thought, but if he can even play at a Matt Williams level it’s a big win for the Astros.
Prospects are just that, prospects. Take it from the White Sox, who refused to trade Gordon Beckham, after good months to end a season, for Adrian Gonzalez.
Obviously prospects do pan out, but it really is all a gamble. I think the team getting the guy with the known track record in the majors typically does better than the guy getting the prospects.
Can pretty much guaranty you that looking back you will laugh that you will laugh at mentioning Tucker and Ted Williams in the same sentence. That comparison is insane.
Williams career line was .344 batting average – .482 OBP – 1.116 OPS
I see Tucker’s potential to be Shawn Green if the power develops…but Ted Williams?! Come on
I will say this, my team is one that say’s they’re built on pitching and seemingly would paid nearly anything for the best rotation in baseball… that said they won’t pay that and I would never support that kind of overpay. Quintana is worth a lot, but not that much.
Seems in line with the Boston and Washington deals,
Doubt Martes is available, considering how the Astros are not sold on McHugh and Fiers, and that they’ve needed 7-9 starters each of the last two years.
There is a deal possible here, if the Astros can pivot from Martes and include Paulino and Fisher instead,
The younger Tucker is a quality prospect, but he’s blocked from a big league job, with Teoscar and Marisnick blocking him for a bench spot as well.
Kyle has played all of 16 games at High A. If he moves very fast, He’ll be up at the end of 2018, so there’s no reason to worry about him being blocked yet.
I agree with you on Paulino and Fisher, and while I see what you are saying about Tucker, it is not exactly true. He isn’t blocked by Teoscar or Marisnick as he is at minimum 2 years from being MLB ready. If he was MLB ready now he would be starting and neither Teoscar or Marisnick would be on the team given the rest of the talent on the roster.
There is close to zero chance Martes or Kyle Tucker go anywhere as their long term potential far outweighs the acquisition cost.
Quintana is not being traded to the Astros if Martes and Tucker are not in the deal
Other teams would easily be able to beat an Astros package
Kyle is 19 years old and is barely at A+. Soonest we will see him is 2019. He won’t be blocked by then.
He will get moved at the trade deadline watch
I agree . It’s just a matter of when. Pay them now or pay them later. If going to pay why not trade now so your team can have for entire year? Teams should understand you have a small window when the stars align and you can win it all. As a Cubs fan I was fine with Torres leaving for chapman. Cubs won it all and although on paper and at Vegas the favorites, injuries and bad seasons could keep them from getting back. If Astros are one stud starter from World Series I would say go for it. Once again I am a fan of a team that hadn’t won in 108 years.
well said. when a team is one player away like the cubs were, and they have the prospects to make a deal happen. you do it
If you would have traded for Chapman at the beginning of last year, asking for Martes, K Tucker and Musgrove would have been like asking for Almora, Baez, Torres and Mckinney..
Waiting until the deadline only cost you Torres and McKinney.
Brave could package Nick Markakis, Sean Newcomb and Aaron Blair for Jose Quintana and Todd Frazier.
Yes, I suppose they could. But then again, Rick Hahn could die from laughing before the deal could be completed.
Yeah he would die of laughter. so if the braves want him, i would take maitan, swanson , alex jackson and wentz.
That moment when you realize that Quintana and Bumgarner have equal values and productions.
Make it a 3 team trade. Quintana to Houston for Musgrove, Martes, Tucker and Todd Frasier to the Dodgers for Puig
That’s not a 3 team… That’s just 2 separate trades…
It’s basically 3 teams.
Stop the Dodgers really don’t want Frazier and no one wants Frazier he’s just being used as leverage. He’s a good player but Turner is head and shoulders above Frazier.
I think the Dodgers will sign Turner or go after Long!
Its cool dogders fan but how serious are dodger wanting to get rid of puig. Sox can dangle something their way of lets say bullpen help.
I think they want to get rid of him. I also tend to think he’ll be included as a throw in piece to a big package so they can rationalize it to themselves if he ever figures it out.
I don’t really care dude. I’m a cubs fan. I enjoy 3 and 4 team trades.
Should have done it
This is a fair price for Q. He is a very underrated pitcher bc he was in Sale’s shadow, & also so stigma bc he signed as a minor league FA. It’s going to cost too prospects for whichever team trades for him. If the Astros feel like the players being asked for will be significant contributors next season they should decline the offer. To get an established top 15-20 pitcher, it’s going to cost top prospects since you know what you’re getting, whereas prospects are wild card.
Q to Astros for Martes, Tucker and either Musgrove or Whitley or Q to Braves for Albies, Newcome and Allard or Q to Dodgers for Bellinger, DeLeon Verdugo and Calhoun. Other deals I would make if I’m Rick Hahn is Q to Pirates for Glasnow, Meadows,Bell and Craig or Q to Cardinals for Reyes, Weaver and Bader. The last one would be Q to Yankees for Frazier, Mateo and Torres.
Good luck
Sure Quintana and Abreu for Martes, Tucker, and Musgrove. I know all 30 of the White Sox faithful fans think that Quintana is an earth-shattering perennial Cy Young winner, however no one else views him that way. If any team at all viewed him anywhere close to what y’all do, a trade would’ve been made. There is a reason Sale was traded and why Q is still on your team, yet you all think that the return should be the same. Take off your homer glasses and see the bigger picture.
The upside and possibilities of Martes and Tucker alone are far greater than the actual value of Quintana. While he’s a good pitcher, he doesn’t have a blazing fastball or dominating stuff. Pitchers like that can be solid (as he’s been), however pitchers like that don’t generally have long term success either.
The Astros don’t need Quintana, but he’d be a nice addition for he right price. Our GM is far too smart to give away our best pitching and hitting prospects for a guy who may or may not still be good in 4 years. We will gladly take the upside of our prospects and you guys can keep him with his overrated value. We will still be a playoff team and legit contender the next 4 years and the White Sox will still be on vacation in October.
Quintana and Abreu for Musgrove, Martes and Tucker would result in Rick Hahn hanging up the phone and not picking it up again. That proposal is absurd.
Quintana is exactly the type of pitcher that can have long term success. He has proven to be very durable and has excellent command.
The White Sox will not trade him unless the return is excellent. Also, the Astros are not the only suitor, I can see the Rockies getting involved.
Astros are all in with their recent moves and the White Sox have all the leverage
Hey Astros astrosfan4lifefan, the White Sox last won the WS in 2005, when they swept your Astros. When was the last time the Astros won the WS? Oh, I forgot, NEVER. Keep living in prospect lala land.
most of those are gross of pays and almost enough to get chris sale. both the yankees and the pirates could of gotten chris sale with that deal and Quintana is no viewed as sale in the baseball world. the braves even said that when they heard the asking price. most of those deals are for aces and Quintana isn’t.
How is a player with a top 10 WAR over the past four seasons not an “ace” ?
Jose Quintana and likely destinations:
espn.co.uk/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/76925/lets-fin…
Key point from link to any fans doubting the status of “Q” as ace quality:
He’s really good. Over the past four seasons, the left-hander is seventh in the majors in WAR among pitchers, right behind Corey Kluber and just ahead of Felix Hernandez.
im not the one not calling him a ace, that would be the braves GM.
WAR in that 4 year span:
Quintana: 18.1
Keuchel: 12.7
WAR during past 3 seasons since Keuchel has been a starter exclusively
Quintana: 12.7
Keuchel: 12.7
Bottom line: WAR suggests Quintana has pitched ace quality ball since he became an exclusive starting pitcher in 2013, 4 seasons ago…at least in comparison to acknowledged ace pitchers like Corey Kluber and Felix Hernandez during that same time frame. Keuchel and Quintana have posted identical WAR metrics over the past 3 seasons. If Astro fans maintain Keuchel is an ace, then they would be hard pressed to not also agree that “Q” is one also..
Hopefully he stays with the white sox and gets to face Chris Sales and beats him so people can finally see Quintana is better
“Q” has had unparallelled non-support when both were teammates in Chicago. It’s hard to see how that changes with Sale moving to a team that is now considered the favorite to win the A.L. title in 2017 while the rebuilding White Sox figure to battle the Minnesota Twins for 4th place in a weaker looking A.L. Central.
The Astros GM is a like a parent buying a car for their new teenage driver. Eventually he will think he got the right car but it will need a new transmission and make their kid think about suicide once they see how ugly it is. Think Mercury Grand Marquis or Chevy Cavalier.
The Astros already did that last season with 31-year old Mike Fiers and 32-year Doug Fister in the rotation. Fiers was at least consistent with his 4.48 ERA but Fister finished the season looking more like a jalopy with a 6.20 ERA in the second half.
If the Astros want to contend with the pitching staffs in Cleveland and Boston, they ought to be thinking in terms of a Cadillac or Lincoln.