Though the Rangers supposedly renewed interest in White Sox lefty Jose Quintana has already been largely shot down by the Dallas/Fort Worth media, general interest in the 28-year-old lefty “has remained strong throughout the offseason,” writes Dan Hayes of CSN Chicago. The Sox would prefer to trade Quintana prior to Opening Day so as not to risk any scenario in which his value deteriorates, per Hayes, but GM Rick Hahn has steadfastly refused to drop his asking price.
On a related note, Astros owner Jim Crane suggests to USA Today’s Bob Nightengale that commissioner Rob Manfred’s decision to award the Astros the top two picks remaining in the Cardinals’ draft (following the infamous Ground Control data breach scandal) could impact Houston’s willingness to part with young talent in trades.
“We’re hoping something will break,” Crane tells Nightengale. “It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that … getting two picks from the Cardinals gives us more depth in the system. We’re still looking into it. The thing about pitching is that it keeps games under control. And you got to have someone who can slam that door.”
Chicago reportedly asked the Astros for a package including young right-hander Joe Musgrove and top prospects Francis Martes and Kyle Tucker when the two sides last engaged in serious Quintana talks, and that package was deemed too steep by Houston. Musgrove, after all, made his big league debut at age 23 last year and threw 62 solid innings with a 4.06 ERA, 8.0 K/9, 2.3 BB/9 and a 43.4 percent ground-ball rate. He’d be controllable for at least another six seasons and possibly seven, depending on how much service time he accumulates in 2017. Martes and Tucker, meanwhile, are considered two of Houston’s best prospects and both ranked within the game’s top 35 prospect in MLB.com’s recent rankings. (Both were within the top 60 on this week’s top 100 rankings from ESPN’s Keith Law, as well.)
While the extra draft picks do give the Astros a quicker avenue to replace some of the talent they’d lose in a theoretical Quintana trade, it does seem somewhat unlikely that the addition of two new draft selections will prompt GM Jeff Luhnow to part with Musgrove, Martes and Tucker. That doesn’t mean, of course, that the two sides can’t find an alternative package, but as Hayes notes, Hahn flatly said, “…we’re not going to compromise on this,” on CSN’s SportsTalk Live last week when asked about the asking price on his remaining trade assets. Per Hayes, there’s a belief that the Sox are looking for two elite prospects and a high-quality third piece, which would align with the reported initial proposal to Houston.
As has been mentioned on numerous occasions in the past, the White Sox aren’t necessarily under any sort of deadline to move Quintana. The lefty has four years of club control remaining at an eminently affordable total of $36.85MM. Only two of those seasons and a total of $16.85MM are guaranteed to Quintana, with the remainder coming via club options, further enhancing his appeal. So long as he remains healthy, Quintana will carry enormous value at any point in the next several seasons — particularly come this summer’s trade deadline. But even if he spends a full season with the Sox, Quintana would carry significant value next winter, when he could be controlled for another three years at a total of $29.85MM.
Hold tight Luhnow. It is interesting to note however that the 2nd pick the Astros received is a competitive balance pick, meaning it’s tradable. I’d bet that pick would be part of any deal for Quintana.
Ed Wade would have traded the Astros farm to the Phillies by now. I miss Ed Wade. Too bad got strangled to death by Shawn Chacon.
Comp Balance picks can only be traded during the regular season. The two sides could agree to kind of work around that — Houston trades the pick to Chicago for a non-prospect on Opening Day — but it can’t be directly included in an offseason trade.
Either way, it’s a win-win. Holding onto Jose, or pulling in top tier prospects. It’s tough pill to swallow, but the future is getting much brighter.
Yeah until that moment Jose feels a pop in his elbow … or the innings he racks up catches up to him in some other way. Feels like Astros/Pirates/mystery teams have the upper hand on this, big time.
Big time?
Sorry, that’s not right, Chicago has the asset. HOU and PIT need to be better this year. Chicago can wait. It has 4 years of control.
Yeah, but those 4 years of control are part of the value.
This idea that a team “doesn’t have to trade him right now” is so odd to me. obviously they don’t need to trade him at this moment, but the risk of injury is a realistic concern with pitchers and the longer you keep the asset the less value they have from control. You are hoping that this gets offset by a ‘trade deadline premium”, but again, that is a risk.
Apparently the WS have decided that the risk of injury and loss of control is worth holding out for a better offer. Don’t know if that’s the correct idea, but the more risk adverse might say it is not.
Per Rick Hahn from the Dan Hayes link:
“The price isn’t going to be lowered unless it serves the greater good of advancing what we’re trying to accomplish,” Hahn said last Friday on SportsTalkLive. “The only way we’re going to move what we feel is an appropriate value on any of our players, especially premium assets who have been the most rumored in recent weeks, is if there’s some sort of injury or underperformance or the contractual control significantly changes, like a year from now for example, and therefore the value of what we’re trading has changed.
“But based upon what we feel our current players are worth, based on their recent performance, health and control going forward, we’re not going to compromise on this.”
Hahn knows he still has the best hand and hasn’t wavered.
Love guys mentioning a dudes elbow popping….stay classy
What am I missing? The Sox obvious trading partner would be the Cubs. Quintana would give the Cubs a better chance of repeating for the WS for the next couple years and they could easily part [no place for them on their roster] with Happ, Jiminez, and Candelario [3 high ceiling position players who fit perfectly into the Chisox’s plans].
GM’s for both teams have said that due to potential fan backlash a “blockbuster” deal between them would never happen.
Neither GM ever said a, “deal between them would never happen”. They only acknowledged the scenario of a “potential fan backlash”, similar to what might also occur in a trade between two staunch division rivals.
Rick Hahn addressed this very issue last December 1st heading into the winter meetings:
“To clarify any confusion regarding our stance on possible trading partners, we want to once again make it clear that our primary goal is to make our club better. We will consider any trade, with any team, that improves the Chicago White Sox.
“As I have said many times over the years, we are always open to discussing trades with all 29 other clubs. We even have completed trades within our division, despite facing these teams 19 times a year, and while trades between the Cubs and White Sox will always draw heightened scrutiny and attention, it makes no sense for us to ever eliminate any potential trading partners.”
The whole “Sox and Cubs won’t trade with each other” was more during the time of Chris Sale speculation. Sale will sell tickets, so the White Sox didn’t want to see him generating buzz for the Cubs. Quintana is not as big a draw; maybe they wouldn’t mind trading him to the Cubs for the right price.
Seriously? How many more tickets could Chris Sale possibly sell for a now World Series championship Cub team that routinely fills Wrigley Field for each home game anyway?
I had also proposed trade scenarios involving Sale to the Cubs but they had to start with either Kyle Schwarber or Javier Baez as centerpieces, something the White Sox would have jumped at but the Cubs were reluctant to do because they were each considered key players on their 2017 active roster.
I proposed this very trade months ago, even before the new 2017 prospect rating came out which had Eloy Jiminez rated much lower. I got bashed by Cub and White Sox fans alike, each feeling their team was being short-changed in such a deal.
Funny thing too, since I am a die-hard fan of both Chicago teams and don’t hold any bias.
My biggest flaw is selfishness in wanting to see “Q” remain in Chicago and have a much deserved chance to finally pitch in the postseason and possibly win a World Series ring, something he hasn’t come close to achieving on the South Side.
I am also exceeding familiar with the prospects in each teams farm system. I would love to see 3 hitting talents like Jiminez, Happ and Candelario provide some offense to shore up the White Sox feeble attack. Unlike the Cubs, the Sox have been much better at acquiring and developing pitchers in recent year. A matchup between the two clubs just makes too much sense despite the potential “political” backlash from their respective fan bases.
The cubs have been way better at acquiring and developing pitchers. See Arrieta, Hendricks, strope, Rondon, etc. the sox have this myth surrounding them that they can develop pitchers. Sale was up and in the majors the same season he was drafted. Quintana was a mets product, they got lucky as he left right when he started to blossom. Rodon and Fullmer have largely disappointed thus far. Don Cooper is overrated. I’d say Bosio blows him out of the water.
Maybe in another 100 years
You’re right. Coop probably had nothing to do with anyone ever pitching well. But just for fun –
Arrieta was a Baltimore product, they got lucky as he started to blossom right when he left.
Hendricks was a Texas product. His numbers in the minors with Texas were every bit as good as they were when he went to the Cubs. How much have they actually “improved” him?
Interesting how that works both ways…
Arrieta was almost ruined by Baltimore, Hendricks went from a 5th starter to cry young candidate, q went from the mets and immediately has success on the sox. same with the sale. To think the sox develop pitchers better than the cubs is ridiculous. That was fun. Thanks.
Spoken like a true blue Cub fan who also happens to despise anything White Sox.
You also seem to possess a limited knowledge of other MLB organizations. Jose Quintana was in the Yankee system prior to being signed by the White Sox as a minor league free agent. He actually spent far more time pitching in the Yankee system than his original Met organization, primarily due to a suspension for using a banned substance when he was 17. Quintana had been given medicine for a back problem from someone he described as an unaffiliated sports medicine doctor and had no idea he had taken anything illegal.
Arrieta went from the Orioles and immediately had success with the Cubs. We can keep doing this all night… You don’t have to be a Sox hater just because you’re a Cubs homer.
Also, I’d love to hear about when Hendricks was a 5th starter… He had a 2.99 career ERA in A+ (20 of his 25 games with Texas – he was significantly worse when he went to the Cubs actually). Then the following year he had a 2.00 ERA (21 starts at AA; 6 at AAA). Then the following year he had a 3.59 ERA in 17 AAA starts before being called up to the majors, where he had a 2.46 ERA in 13 starts (with a 3.32 FIP). The last 2 years he has had a 3.95 ERA (3.36 FIP) and 2.13 ERA (3.20 FIP). What part of that says “#5 starter” at any point?
And before anyone says it, yes, I know ERA isn’t the best way to judge pitchers, but that was the most readily available minor league info I found without doing way too much research to prove a point that really doesn’t need much proving…
One last point – Quintana had a 3.76 ERA (4.23 FIP) in his first year with the White Sox in 22 starts. I’d say he has improved quite a bit since then.
Good try though. Thanks for the effort.
It’s funny to hear and read Cubs fans suddenly having an arrogance. Guess you’re making up for 100 years of bland mediocrity. Yeah, we can salute the Cubs farm system as the place that cultivated the talents of players like Bryant and Rizzo but at the end of the day it once again came down to ownership with deep pockets willing to pay anything to win. Just like I hate MLB for allowing it for so long, I hate teams like the Yanks, Red Sox and now, Cubs
Hope season long slumps are coming your way
Hmm… is Musgrove the issue? How about Martes, Tucker, and Fisher (and maybe a lotto-pick type lower level prospect)? Not sure what the Astros would think, but as a Sox fan I think that would be good. Am I missing something?
I had read Musgrove was the issue, which makes sense on the Astros side given he has the 3rd best upside of any of their MLB ready starters. the return for Q is going to fall between eaton and sale, so the package you proposed + the comp pick should do it unless pit comes back with meadows+
Yeah, I would rather have Meadows + from the Pirates. But if Houston is willing to part with Martes, Tucker, Fisher + something else than the Sox should pull the trigger.
If the White Sox wanted Bell as part of that deal, it probably won’t happen now….Bell just had knee surgery (minor), but will be out 4-6 weeks probably. That would certainly dampen their interest, I think.
I am pretty “meh” on Bell… but thats just my personal opinion
Bell will be a solid hitter. High batting avg and high obp to go with a low strikeout rate.
The Pirates aren’t moving on from bell. They haven’t had an everyday first baseman since LaRoche, the defense will improve, and his bat is solid. He will be a very good player for the Pirates.
That would depend on the cause of the injury and how likely it is to be a recurring problem. Simply being out 6 weeks won’t cause him to lose any value because the WS are already writing off this year.
Martes is the issue, not Musgrove, but I doubt they really want to part with him either.
The Sox are great at developing pitchers, but not at position players, can’t see why a package with Tucker, Cameron and Reed along with multiple pitchers not named Martes or Musgrove wouldn’t work.
It’s like they’re hung up on rankings but not actual value.,
“It’s like they’re hung up on rankings but not actual value”
Says someone that is not privy to the actual conversations taking place between the GM’s…
As a White Sox fan I would agree with this comment. OF Kyle Tucker, CF Daz Cameron and 1B A.J. Reed would all fill a huge need in their system or future MLB roster. The White Sox need hitters with power to be successful in their home park. Each and every season in which they have made the postseason since leaving the old Comiskey Park the White Sox have slugged at least 200 HR’s to go along with an excellent pitching staff.
Tucker, the Astros #2 prospect, grades best with his hit and power tool, along with an arm that would play in RF. His ETA is 2019
Cameron’s father Mike should be familiar to all White Sox fans as a former MLB All-Star and GG center fielder. His son is currently the Astros #6 prospect and has much of his father’s attributes including the ability to hit, run and especially cover ground in CF. Like Tucker, cameron’s ETA is also 2019.
Finally, A.J. Reed could provide the White Sox with a MLB ready left-handed power bat they have desperately sought for many years. This huge man may have struggled making contact in his brief debut last season but he was also one of the Astros elite prospects at this time a year ago. Per his MLB.com prospect report:
Reed was one of the best two-way college players during his career at Kentucky, where he served as the Wildcats ace and first baseman. As a junior, he led the country with 23 home runs and went 12-2 with a 2.09 ERA on the mound. His prolific play in both facets of the game helped him win the 2014 Golden Spikes Award as the best amateur player in the country.
At one time, scouts preferred Reed as a pitcher. But he has the type of left-handed power that is difficult to find, and the Astros have made him a full-time first baseman. While power is his best tool, Reed is more than just a masher. He made significant strides as a hitter in college and can consistently square balls up without sacrificing power.
Reed doesn’t run well enough to play a position other than first base, but he has a strong arm and is a capable defender.
Reed already appears to be a better defender than current White Sox slugging 1B Jose Abreu. Reed could provide an immediate alternative at 1B versus right-handed pitching or also become their primary DH until Abreu gets dealt as part of their on going rebuild.
Add another pitching prospect not named Musgrove or Martes and the White Sox and Astros should have an agreeable deal.
Just curious for the Pirates fans perspectives on meadows, bell, and glassnow. Meadows seems like he is the next Grady Sizemoore. Everything I read about him I keep coming across his bad legs and reoccurring hamstring issues. Bell offensively seems legit but seems to hold below average defensive value. Glassnow seems like a candidate the Pirates want to try and sell while his potential value is at perhaps at what it will be his highest point in his pirate career. Reason I say that is he seems to have control issues. No player is perfect and I understand prospects are in the minors working on there game. However I’m not sure any of the three mentioned players above will amount to much in the MLB. Bell would be my pick to be most successful of the group. Pirates fans educate me on these three please.
I honestly don’t think the Stros would do Martes and Tucker straight up. Quintana’s a fine pitcher but his value is overrated right now. Major trades don’t generally happen this time of year for a reason. Sox need to hold their breath and hope Q has a normal injury free first half, then try again at deadline.
The hell is wrong with people.
Jose Quintana has been in the league for 5 seasons and a full time starter for the last four. In each of the last four years, he’s pitched over 200 innings with ERAs of 3.51, 3.32, 3.36, and then 3.20 last year. Every year, he’s about a 5 WAR player, and over the four years he’s been a full time starter he’s something like 3rd in baseball in WAR for pitchers. He’s not overrated, he’s absolutely underrated. That you can even say he’s overrated is proof of how incredibly underrated he is. It would be easier to make a case that Jose Quintana is the best pitcher in baseball than it is to make a case that he’s overrated.
The comments section on every article about Jose Quintana devolves into a bunch of people trying to claim he is overrated because he is not an “ace” or a “true number one” and a willful disregard of multiple, unbiased metrics that demonstrate (unbiasedly) his value,
Plus, there is tons of value in 4 years of a team friendly contract.
Reports are that Martes is the one ‘Stros won’t trade.
Swap out Paulino for Martes and I would still think its a good deal
As a White Sox fan, Martes/Tucker/Fisher would work for me. If the Astros need to keep their pitching, then I also would be fine with Tucker/A.J. Reed/Fisher and a throw-in to add a little value for having to come down off an asking price that included Martes.
I prefer the athleticism and CF glove of Daz Cameron over the weak armed Derek Fisher who will need to play LF in MLB. Imo, Fisher won’t provide the necessary hit tool and power as a corner OF and the White Sox already have enough “suspects” in their farm system who’s best attribute is their run tool.
RF Kyle Tucker, 1B A.J. Reed, CF Daz Cameron and RHP Forrest Whitley works for me in a trade for Jose Quintana if Frances Martes and Joe Musgrove are off the table.
I like Quintana and think he’d have been a good fit in Pittsburgh, but not for what the Sox were apparently asking. With no reference to the Bucs in this article, I’m taking it that brass feels the same way
Do it already!
Agreed! I’m sick of all the speculation on possible packages coming back to the Sox. Trade him and tank this season.
Astros have even more reason to do it with more ammunition in the upcoming draft, and watch them still not pull the trigger. I’d make the trade if I were HOU. They need more top-tier consistency than relying on Keuchel/McCullers, etc.
Agree. You can pencil in 200 IP sub 3.50 ERA for Quintana, something you can’t guarantee with the rest of that staff.
If that’s all the Stros are getting, no thanks. For what the Sox are asking, he better do sub 3.
That’s the floor, man. He’s going into his prime and he’d be mostly pitching in a more pitcher-friendly park in HOU than CHW. Again, HOU’s staff has no consistency, and there’s few pitchers on the market with his level of consistent track record, and being locked up for a nice series of runs by HOU.
Who knows when and if Martes/Tucker/etc. will be ready. If you can get him and not give up Bregman, pull the trigger. Who knows if you’ll be getting 2015 or 2016 Dallas.
To be clear, I wasn’t saying those are bad numbers. In fact, his ERA is even lower than that the past 3 years I think it was. I just put a benchmark up there. Plus a better defense can get to more balls that would normally be hits with the Sox defense.
2 meh draft picks don’t change the calculus on giving up 2+ of your better prospects.
We’re exactly 0 games into the 2017 season, why exactly do the Astros need to do it already? The White Sox are the ones selling a guy with 4 years remaining, therefore, they have the leverage. Why would the Astros meet such a high asking price right now, when they can literally just wait and see how their already stacked team plays for the first 80 games and then reevaluate the situation? Either way, they’ll have the same opportunity to acquire a guy for 4 seasons and 4 potential postseasons. I would argue, the reason they’re getting him in the first place, is to have experienced pitching for when playoffs come around. They’ve already shown they’re capable to make it to playoffs with just about the same team they’ve got. So then, why make a trade in February when it will likely benefit them to wait until July? Could this simply be bc you’re a fan seeking stimulus from league activity? If not, I’d like to hear some solid points from you as to, why it would hurt the Astros to wait until the trade deadline to make a move for an ace.
Agreed. Astros totally are in the drivers seat if they’re the only trade partner. Could be a mystery team, but I doubt it this time of year.
Disagree. A full season of Quintana instead of half a season could be the difference between making the playoffs or missing them. The White Sox will be terrible either way. Sounds like the Astros have more pressure.
It could benefit them to wait for July, but by then, Quintana could be elsewhere or the price is even higher. Granted, Quintana could get hurt or pitch bad, but if he pitches to his normal self the price goes up because its the trade deadline (where teams usually always overpay) and if he pitches better than normal, the price will naturally go up. I agree that the Astros don’t have to make a move now, but if the price comes down a little, I think they should say yes.
he has as good of a chance of getting hurt/declining as he does of getting noticeably better, doesn’t he?
I think the certainty to know where you are half way in the season and know where he is is worth whatever increase in price the deadline brings is worth it.
There is also the chance that there are other pitchers available at the deadline to trade for.
Chance, chance ,chance.,,
The chance also exists that the Astros could have problems with their rotation far before the summer trade deadline, perhaps even during spring training. Waiting 80 games could be just as costly to their chances for making the playoffs. After all, the team failed to make the postseason just last season and were eliminated in the first (division) round in 2015 after winning the wild card contest. There is the added benefit of acquiring a pitcher of Quintana’s magnitude now to set yourself up for a deep postseason run, something the Astros haven’t accomplished since their World Series defeat in 2005.
To the dirty south siders. They should just give quintana to the stros as a thank you gift for giving them the world series !
I would say it would be smart for both the Astros and White Sox to wait until the deadline to make a move. However, there is risk in both of these teams going with that strategy. The most obvious would be injury with any of the players involved or a decreased production. Whether it is with the prospects the Astros are willing to part with or Quintana.
Another issue could be the market. We just don’t know what the market will be for starting pitchers at the deadline. I am assuming Archer, Gray may be available as well. How many teams will be looking for a starting pitcher in July? If the Dodgers, Yankees, Pittsburgh, etc. are all in the market it could drive the price up (depending on how Quintana and other SPs are performing).
With that being said there are many unknowns but there is always a risk on both sides waiting to make a trade. I agree with you though, I think it would be smart for Houston to hold off and see where they are at. Quintana could stubble a bit, their rotation could perform better than expected, or their could be a slow market developing for SP which could keep the price the same or drop it a little.
The Astros “stacked?” They’re a fine team, but they may not even be the best team in their own division (Rangers, Mariners)..
And the longer the Astros wait, the more teams that could potentially get involved who feel they are one arm short for the pennant drive.
Because the starting rotation even with kuechel in top form needs a top tier low era high innings pitcher. It is as simple as that. We will score more runs and hopefully hit and run better this year but it will not get us to the postseason, or if they somehow squeaked out a postseason berth it would not see us through to a World Series .
Because losses in April, May and June count just as much as losses in July, August and September. The Astros missed the playoffs last season and 3 of the 4 teams in their division have improved this offseason. The Astros have also improved, but it was with a lot of win now moves. Why not get another player that helps you win now and also 3 years down the road?
Trade the farm away, Astros. But not for Quintana. Ask for the recipe for a Chicago style hot dog and a deep dish recipe to be named later.
You are willing to trade your farm system for deep dish pizza? Dude, please tell me this is a joke and you actually have higher standards.
In my opinion, this article just reinforces the importance for the Astros to wait until the all star break to make a trade for a pitcher like Quintana, Archer, Gray etc. It not only gives them time to see how these top pitchers will do under the spotlight of trade talks all year but they’ll also have another chance to have a solid draft class. Not to mention, the value of giving some of their formidable prospects, like Reed, Fisher, Teoscar, and Paulino, the extra time to showcase their developing skills. If all goes well, the Astros will be at or very close to the top of their division and they’ll have a farm system that’s overflowing with talent, which will put them in a great position to slide some big chips to the middle of the table for an ace and a serious push for the pennant…this is gunna be fun!
Quintana may not make it to the deadline!
True. It’s possible a team that hasn’t been linked to him could be interested if a starter goes down. I’m thinking Dodgers in particular if Hill were to miss a lot of time.
They’ve been against trading their major prospects and have like 9 starters
There are potentially Gray, Archer, Verlander, Greinke, Darvish ect that could be traded mid season. Honestly I would prefer to take on a large contract and keep more of our better prospects than give in to the high asking price for Quintana.
Gray wouldn’t be cheap and would cost more (same division tax on Astros), Tigers could be competitive, Greinke I doubt goes anywhere (D-Backs didn’t deal him last year when a team wanted him. Also getting older and getting paid a ton), Rangers will probably be good so Darvish won’t be available unless someting terrible happens (also same division tax on Astros).
With the exception of Yu Darvish, each one of those pitchers were also mentioned as potentially available trade pieces this very offseason.
“Chicago reportedly asked the Astros for a package including young right-hander Joe Musgrove and top prospects Francis Martes and Kyle Tucker when the two sides last engaged in serious Quintana talks…”, with ” there’s a belief that the Sox are looking for two elite prospects and a high-quality third piece, which would align with the reported initial proposal to Houston.”
I am thinking this means the Sox think of Tucker as not elite but just high-quality. Sox have also been on record as wanting talent that is close to being MLB ready, so that is why they may not be as high on Tucker, given that he only made it to the A+ level last season.
But still.. per the recent new MLB rankings Martes is #20, Tucker #35 and Fisher #83. Those three + something else that allows the Sox to save face for coming down off of Musgrove should be enough to make a deal.
Tucker was the #5 pick in the 2015 draft and was regarded as the best pure hitter in the HS class. Most kids play in short season ball there first year out of HS, Tucker played in Low-A and had a pretty solid year while being one of the youngest (If not the youngest) at that level. He moved up to High-A and excelled. He is a blue chip prospect.
That being said, you can take Fisher. Please take him. That guy has no business being in a top 100 list.
I’d take Fisher as a third piece. Tucker, Whitley/Paulino, Fisher, Stubbs. Boom
That’s reasonable. I’d hate to lose Tucker and Whitley but that is a fair amount of talent to give up.
The White Sox don’t need Derek Fisher. They have enough OF “suspects” in their system whose best tool is their running game. This would include Adam Engel and Jacob May who, like Fisher, also possess a 45 hit tool.
OF Kyle Tucker, along with CF Daz Cameron, 1B A.J. Reed and a pitching prospect not named Musgrove and Marte might be a package that would be amenable to both sides.
I doubt the Cardinals’ top two picks would be enough for the Astros to give in. It seems like it makes the most sense to hold onto Q until the summer and drum up a bidding war.
The two picks is two more prospects for the system. The luxury they were not going to have when discussing these deals prior to the news. They also offered that huge package for Archer not knowing they were going to receive 2 players. I think it’ll end up taking a one player less in that deal to get Q.
Thanks Cashman!! For not destroying what your organization built. I hope Sale like the Red Sox jerseys!!
You do know that most prospects turn out to be nothing-burgers, right?
Cashman has been around for roughly 15-20 years, so I wouldn’t say “what your organization built” but what Cashman built. I’m sure if it was up to the Steinbrenners, they’d be signing every big free agent and trading the farm for high quality players.
I think if the Yankees are committed to a rebuild, they should move Betances now. His value is going to drop like a hammer.
58th in the majors among qualified relievers in ERA. Tied for 4th in the AL with 5 blown saves. A career 3.98ERA in Sept/Oct. It already has.
The Sox are fearful Q gets hurt or plays terribly. The Astros have little to lose by waiting till July.
The extra picks shouldn’t mean much.
My $0.02 is that if the Sox were fearful I think they would have moved him already. Now, sure, there is still time before spring training and the season starts, and maybe they come down by then. I don’t see it, though. I know there is risk with any player, especially a pitcher, but he has been very consistent in his performance and healthy.
I wish the Tribe could swing a trade for him. We need a lefty starter.
they could do it, but it would gut the farm and probably not be worth it in the long run
I dare say you don’t need it. Just get all your arms back healthy and reinforce the bullpen and you’re good to go. I hope you take out the other AL elites.
“Just get all your arms back healthy”
Easier said than done.
Also, I’m sure the White Sox would LOVE adding Zimmer and Mejia, so let’s make a deal!
In the same division, unlikely, even with the Sox not contending. Besides, Cleveland already seems like a virtual lock for the playoffs. It’s teams like Houston and Pittsburgh that are on the edge and need improvements.
Hahn needs to bend here. The Astros have a deep enough system to get something done without Martes or Musgrove.
Astros need both for 2017. It’s not like the’ll suddenly be available at the deadline.
Some combination of Tucker, Perez, Whitley, Laureano, Stubbs, M. Sierra could net a higher upside return than those 2.
Reason #2 Hahn needs to budge is there is virtually no comparable pitcher available right now.
The Quintana waters could be muddied at the deadline if Tanaka, Gray, Odorizzi and Archer become available.
Why? Hahn does not have to trade Quintana in 2017 at all. He is under control for 4 more seasons. Why can’t the White Sox shop him at the deadline or next offseason for that matter? The price will not change all that much next offseason when he has three years of control left
My proposal is Martes + Tucker + Perez + Reed for Quintana
Houston gets to keep Musgrove, but must add more to the back end of the trade for the Sox to accept
Not a bad trade proposal but I believe the Astros are also reluctant to part with Frances Martes because he is a near ready MLB starter.
That’s why I had suggested the alternative trade of RF Kyle Tucker, SP Forrest Whitley, CF Daz Cameron and 1B A.J. Reed. The outfielders are both a ways off before any possible big league debut, as is Whitley who was drafted out of high school in the 2016 Rule 4 draft.
Reed is the one player who has seemingly proven enough in the minors and should be ready to assume at least a part time role as a left-handed power hitting 1B/DH in the big leagues, a role still open on the current White Sox roster.
Each one of these positional players would also fit an organizational need for the White Sox who are fairly weak in the outfield and at 1B system wide.
I love how white sox fans and organization think Q is worth a teams top 3 but obviously 29 other teams think differently. Then sox fans argue with everyone thinking other teams are delusional
He is if the top 3 on their team are the right combo of skill
They believe it because the Nationals gave up the farm for Eaton. They set the bar and now the White Sox want the world.
Exactly, the nats were desperate to make a move since they lost out on every single move they wanted to make. That’s the only way the sox get what they want, if a team is desperate
Ah, the desperation factor. It plays especially well at the summer trade deadline when it’s virtually guaranteed that any number of teams would be willing to overpay for an asset with similar or even less value than “Q”.
It is based on his performance over the course of his career.
Funny isn’t the 1 thing holding the Astros back is pitching? Yes the price is never fair to get a top of the line starter but when your pitching staff is hot garbage and implodes every year ya might wanna make the deal!
Another thing is if you see what they got for Sale and Eaton, why settle for anything less then a ridiculous return? They already have enough pieces to Jumpstart a rebuild. Why sell off a really good pitcher with a ridiculously good valued contract for fair value? I wouldn’t!
Because 95% of fair value is still a pretty darn good return.
Contract is great and he is better than anything they got.
Astros better hope those prospects become superstars real quick, because in the next 3 years they lose Dallas, Altuve, and more. Good luck betting on prospects while your window closes.
The team right now is stacked. The minors right now are stacked at every level and only getting better. Window closing? Not any time soon. Peanut butter and jealous.
And that “stacked” system still won’t get you past Boston anytime soon.
Keep building that legacy, maybe you can be next Lovable Losers.
Good thing the stro’s don’t have to compete with the redsox for a playoff spot. Then in the playoffs anything can happen like the sox getting swept, so your comment has nothing to do with the game that’s actually played on the field
I forget, how far did the Astros go in the playoffs last year?
Same as the redsox kinda
Red Sox 0 playoff wins
Astros 0 playoff wins
I’m sorry…has the team not already aquired a Catcher that can actually hit, a Right Fielder that pushes the gold glove caliber Springer to Center, a DH that put the Rangers into the playoffs last year, and healed the top two arms in their rotation?
Not to mention cutting ties with the abomination of Carlos Gomez and parting ways with Colby Rasmus and his .200 BA.
The lineup has no holes. The rotation is inconsistent at worst. The bullpen is top 5. The minor leagues are top 10. The core is young the payroll is low and the future is bright.
Poor current analogy in comparing the Red Sox and Astros chances based on last years postseason. Last I checked, Boston acquired Chris Sale to beef up an already formidable rotation while Houston has only added offense and seems reluctant to add to a pitching staff with many question marks.
They won’t lose them. That’s why all the free agents they signed are relatively short term,
I wouldn’t be surprised if they lock up Altuve sometime this year, he’s well underpaid.
Seems fairly straightforward, Astros don’t believe Quitana’s value is 2 + 1 prospects and the Sox won’t move him for anything less. Both teams need to see how the first 2-3 months of the season shake out and reassess the market then. Currently, the market for Quintana seems to be 2 teams (maybe 3). At the deadline (factoring in inevitable injuries, poor performance, or great performances by unexpected teams ), I expect the number of interested contending teams to be greater than 2. As far as injuries go, it is far more likely that one of Keuchel, McCullers, McHugh, Fiers, Morton sustains an injury than Quintana does individually. I don’t think the Astros trade for Quintana unless the have an injury in their rotation or are trailing the division leader significantly 2+ months into the season.
Yes! Pirates are not brought up in this scam anymore. I think N.H is making a wise decision by not being baited by Chicago. Greed has gotten a hold of Chicago by the trades of Eaton and Sale. They got way more than they should by any standards.
Meadows isn’t going to the White Sox, but you fans can dream. To be honest, keeping Newman and Bell as well is in the best interest of the Pirates. Pirates plan to win long term, and passing around future talent to the quantity the Sox want, would be a huge step backwards. I don’t see Sox getting a deal they drive up for On Q. Too damn pricey and critical to any teams depths.
The controversy surrounding a trade of this magnitude is hardly anything new. You only need to review the previous offseason deal involving SP Shelby Miller to know that this isn’t just about White Sox “greed”. You might also want to refresh your memory concerning the prospects dished out last summer for two Yankee relievers who possessed far less control than Jose Quintana has currently.
I think the Shelby Miller deal is an example of why you dont make that kind of trade. Every year there is a team that gets bent over. This year the White Sox are playing the role of Zed in Pulp Fiction. The Red Sox are Ving Rhames and the Nationals are the gimp in the trunk.
The Red Sox trade for Chris Sale at the most recent winter meetings could prove to be an example as to why a club should make such a trade. Boston has solidified their chances of not only winning the A.L. East in 2017 but making a deep postseason run with a strong opportunity for a 4th world championship since 2004.
At the end of the day, every trade is a risk for both parties. Sale could get injured with his funky delivery and Moncada could be a superstar. Just as easily, Moncada could struggle like Buxton has and Sale could finally win the Cy Young. But it will always cost more in prospect potential than current star potential because the former is unknown and the latter is more solidified.
Those two relievers are also far more dominant then Quintana that being said they are just relievers but possibly the 2 best, definitely the two best lefties. It goes back to teams being desperate at the deadline but both trades where fair at the time. It might end up the Torres trade instead of the chapman trade and miller has 2 yeas left. I know q has 4 left but it seems like teams want the flashy dominant reliever more than the good reliable starter and they’re willing to pay for it
Did I mention the Yankees trade? Refresh my memory? Nor do I care or should care about that trade. Desperate teams make desperate decisions. Washington is an example of desperation to win. They traded their farm system for a single player. That itself is their bad play. Prospects are better than depending on a veteran who may start to decline. Q is 28 now and could be the next Donte Willis. Or he can prove me wrong and turn out to be C.C Sabatha. Point is, as a small market club trading away prospects, is a step backwards. Even so, how can you mention Yankees to the Pirates? That is like oil and water.
Based on payroll alone, the Washington Nationals are also “like oil and water” in comparison to the Pirates. Just saying…
Now you are just trolling. I believe you fill us this topic by yourself alone. All these trade deals that you toss out for everyone to go mumbling about, is something a troll would do. You hardly make any sense. First the Yankees trade and now going to payroll in regards to Washington? Seriously, the point really is, desperate teams make desperate decisions. Pirates are not even desperate enough to trade their system for a pitcher alone. Pirates are one of the smartest organizations (findings of talent) in the league. Players like Marte or Polanco have made the majors and was overlooked by many clubs. They have been smart by drafting if need, not of a “want”. Drafts of guys like Newman, Tallion, Cole, Bell, Connor Joe, etc, are example of using tools and evaluation of talent. White Sox obviously don’t utilize the tools to make smart choices or finding the right talent. Otherwise the Sox wouldn’t always be rebuilding.
Exactly right. Look, I’d love to have the guy. He might be the ace of the staff. But to give the Sox what they are purported to want–a number of top prospects–is insanity. Even with him, they’re not going to touch the Cubs if they stay healthy
“Touch the Cubs”? That would only happen if the Astros were fortunate enough to advance to the World Series, something that would be more likely to happen with “Q” in their rotation rather than on some other contenders staff.
In a perfect world Reinsdorf would of kept same team and Sign Encanarcion and Cespedes for 55mill ………. Instead of Signing Rondo (who will be released ) Wade ( plays once a week ) and Lopez ( would be good if it was 1993 ) for 52 million
Despite both clubs being owned by Jerry Reinsdorf, they are entirely separate entities. The White Sox payroll has no effect on the Bulls and vice versa. Each franchise has their own budget which is also subject to league rules.
Professional sports owners do not take money out of their own pockets and infuse it into their clubs. If this were the case, many “small” market clubs who are owned by far wealthier people than Reinsdorf would be spending on a par with the richer “large” market teams like the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox and Cubs.
Contending teams will do whatever it takes to win. Witness the Cubs and Indians and what they gave up for Chapman and Miller.
Rebuilding teams will wait on players to develop.
The majority of teams will sit in the middle and think that a couple of tweaks will put them in contention. They will sign a free agent or two and maybe make a minor trade. Some will get good performances and be competitive, others will not.
Is the best path to be competitive and hope luck falls your way or is it to do whatever it takes to win a World Series?
For every team for whom going all in worked out, there’s a team that bombed. If you bomb, you can set the franchise back 5 years because there will be no prospects to call up and no one will want your overpaid pieces. A few years ago, the Nats had a rotation for the ages…which then proceeded to struggle. The D’backs got Greinke and Shelby Miller after impressive seasons by both…and then both bombed. To answer your question, I think the best path is to not mortgage your future to increase your odds of winning this year by a small percentage. Try to be competitive every year rather than giving away the farm for rentals or signing sluggers for long contracts that will become anchors with four years left.
So you are content to be competitive and maybe get a wild card berth, then hope some miracle happens. That’s a legitimate option. I just thought that a team that has been in just one World Series, and lost, might be more aggressive. But if you are happy with the status quo, then I am happy for you.. Anyone remember who won that year?
The Astros core is cost effective until after the 2019 season, they brought in veterans on reasonable or short deals.
It’s about a window, not this season. If it were about this season they would have paid up for Sale or Archer.
And Jose Quintana has four more prime years of control that makes him “cost effective” through the 2020 season.
Btw-Chris Sale could have been cost effective through 2019 and Chris Archer through 2021, not just for “this season”.
Btw-Reportedly, Alex Bregman was the starting point for any chance the Astros had of acquiring Sale. They refused and I certainly can’t fault them for that. So, in essence, the Astros would not have “paid up for Sale”.
I’m saying if you’re going all-in, you’d better do so with an absolutely dominant team. I’m a Cubs and White Sox fan, but as excited as I was to see the Cubs finally win, I’d pick the field over the Cubs for this coming year. Boston, Washington, and San Francisco all got better (short-term, at least), the Mets and Indians will (hopefully) be healthier, and who knows who will make a surprise run? Mathematically, you have a higher chance of winning a World Series by taking a 10% chance 4 years in a row than you do for 1 year with even a 33% chance. Plus, there’s also the case of the Marlins, who went all-in a couple times, actually won it, but then had a fire sale and watched as revenues tanked for years. Long-term competitiveness is not just good for winning the World Series; it’s good for the fans and business, too.
I remember how great the feeling was when my White Sox won the WS. I am sure Cubs fans can attest to the joy and euphoria they felt last fall. Irregardless of how your team performs in subsequent years, the feeling stays with you and nobody can take it away. It is worth it and always will be.
Bet money a trade is made after the WBC after Q performs as usual. You heard it here first.
Don’t think the WBC will have any bearing on this. Everyone in baseball knows what he’s capable of already. No need for him to prove anything else.
True, but sometimes humans need to be reminded by actions it’s just the way we work.
You’ll see
It’s entirely possible that Quintana could get traded following the WBC. It’s far more likely that would occur for other reasons, like a spring training injury or poor performance in some contenders starting rotation.
Being consistently very good doesn’t make you great. Even if WAR doesn’t know the difference.
I have NEVER, not once, heard anyone talk about one of Jose Quintana’s pitches.
I do hear people talk all the time about great pitchers’ great pitches. Kershaw’s curve, Syndergaard’s slider, etc.
Never Quintana’s.
If I were a team and I was going to give up my top prospects, I’d go after Archer. He has the stuff to be an ace and any team would be lucky to have him as the face of their franchise. Great kid, too.
Yet Quintana has been better than Archer every year except 2015, and even that year was close. Funny how that works. Having flashy pitches doesn’t make you a great pitcher. It can absolutely help, but there’s a LOT more that goes into it.
Nobody with a brain is comparing him to truly GREAT pitchers like Kershaw/Syndergaard. His numbers make him a backend #1 or great #2. Add that to an extremely team friendly contract (and his age), and you’re going to be giving up a lot to get him.
If you prefer Archer, that’s fine. But it’s certainly not because he’s the no brainer better pitcher right now.
Am I the only Sox fan who feels we didn’t get anywhere near enough for Sale. I won’t deny Kershaw is the best pitcher in baseball but Sale’s stuff is harder to hit. Sale would of never let the Cubs pound him Clayton got shelled. Can’t wait to see how great Chris is in playoffs this year. How do you not get someone like Bogaerts plus Moncada & Kopech for a top 3 pitcher in baseball. Moncada better be the next Cano. I believe they may have won Eaton trade only time will tell. Eaton’s nothing special, but he is an A++ effort guy. Top 5 coach gets CWS in playoffs 2 out of last 4 years. Going straight to rebuild after Ventura is heartbreaking. Robertson, Melky, vampire boy, Frazier trades should net us plenty of young talent w/o parting with the Jose’s. They need to be competitive in 2019. In a perfect world Reinsdorf sells both Sox & Bulls to get management that has a clue
Yet so many Red Sox fans are lambasting Dave Dombrowski for giving up too much for Sale. lol
The White Sox were not making the postseason in any of the past 4 seasons that Robin Ventura managed. They were 36 games below .500 in 2013, 16 below in 2014, 10 below in 2015 and 6 below last season. No manager in MLB would have secured a playoff spot with those ball clubs.
Only in 2012, Ventura’s first as manager, did the White Sox have a solid chance for the playoffs. They actually led the A.L. Central for much of that season before crumbling down the stretch to the eventual A.L. champ Tigers. A good, experienced manager may have gotten that club over the hump and into the postseason.
81-year old Jerry Reinsdorf will likely sell the White Sox soon after their rebuild comes to a (hopeful) conclusion. He’ll probably retain the Bulls where his son Michael is the team President.
GM Rick Hahn’s fate will likely be determined by the success of the rebuild, even if the team is sold. He is more than qualified to be a MLB General Manager with degrees from the University of Michigan, Harvard Business School and an MBA from the Kellogg School of Management, as well as his work as Assistant GM under Kenny Williams through the 2012 season.
Are you kidding me you aren’t getting Boegarts plus even for a pitcher like Sale. I think the White Sox got fair value. If the White Sox wanted Bogey then it would of been a 1 for 1 or Bogey plus a lesser prospect. The White Sox wanted prospects and Bogey ain’t a prospect anymore. I’m pretty confident that in the future this trade will be looked at as a win-win. I’m guessing that Moncada is going to be a monster and Kopech will be very good too. The White Sox would still have Sale if they demanded Bogey as part of the return.