Major League Baseball has concluded its investigation into the Cardinals’ illegal accessing of the Astros’ proprietary database, ruling that St. Louis will have to send two draft picks to the Astros and pay a $2MM fine to the Astros as punishment, Major League Baseball commissioner Rob Manfred announced on Monday. The Cardinals will lose their top two picks, Nos. 56 and 75 overall, as punishment. Manfred also announced that former Cardinals scouting director Chris Correa, who was fired and sentenced to prison time for accessing the Astros’ database, has been placed on the “permanently ineligible” list, thus banning him from baseball.
The Cardinals had already forfeited their top pick in the 2017 draft in order to sign Dexter Fowler to a five-year contract, and they’ll now be left without any selections in the top two rounds of the draft as a result of commissioner Manfred’s ruling. (The second pick they’re forfeiting is a Competitive Balance, Round B selection.) In addition to losing those two draft picks, the Cardinals will also lost the bonus slots that are associated with those selections.
Via the announcement on the matter, the league’s investigation “did not establish that any Cardinals’ employee other than Mr. Correa (who was the only individual charged by the federal government) was responsible for the intrusions into the Astros’ electronic systems.” As such, there are no penalties to further Cardinals employees (either current or former). Manfred continues to state that he holds the Cardinals organization “vicariously liable for [Correa’s] misconduct,” adding that the Astros “suffered material harm as a result of Mr. Correa’s conduct.” Beyond the loss of proprietary knowledge that Manfred terms “not amenable to precise quantification,” he adds that the Astros “suffered substantial negative publicity and had to endure the time, expense and distraction of both a lengthy government investigation and an MLB investigation.”
Over the weekend, David Barron and Jake Kaplan of the Houston Chronicle reported that documents which were recently unsealed by a federal judge had expedited the investigation and brought the commissioner’s office to the verge of a conclusion. Per the Chronicle duo, Correa accessed the Astros’ “Ground Control” database on 48 instances over a span of two and a half years and also accessed Houston GM Jeff Luhnow’s trade notes on 14 occasions. Beyond that, assistant U.S. attorney Michael Chu believes Correa to have been the responsible party for leaking 10 months’ worth of private trade notes to Deadspin — all of which became available for public consumption back in 2013.
The penalty is certainly not inconsequential for the Cardinals, but it’s already drawn mixed reviews and assuredly will continue to do so. Ben Badler of Baseball America, for instance, tweets that the league stripped the Red Sox of five prospects and imposed a two-year ban on Boston’s ability to sign international prospects last year due to their efforts to circumvent international signing restrictions by signing multiple players in package deals. Meanwhile, the Cardinals will not forfeit so much as a top 50 overall pick in the upcoming 2017 draft.
Nonetheless, the Cardinals will feel the punishment in this summer’s draft. St. Louis already had he second-lowest overall draft bonus pool, checking in at $3,925,500 this year, as Baseball America’s Hudson Belinsky recently reported. Now, they’ll lose pick No. 56 ($1,122,400) and No. 75 ($730,800), thereby dropping their overall pool to $2,072,300 — far and away the lowest in the league. (Cleveland’s $3,646,100 pool is the next-lowest, for context.)
And the Astros, meanwhile, stand to benefit from today’s ruling as well. Houston had a $6,755,100 bonus pool that will now rise to $8,608,300 (also via Belinsky’s figures). That’s certainly a far cry from the 2014 draft, when Houston had two of the top five picks (and three of the top 37) and a whopping $13,362,200 pool. But, the bump to just over $8.6MM does give the Astros the 11th-largest pool in the 2017 amateur draft — a notable bump up from their previous standing of 18th.
Hell yea!!!! Give us top picks please$$$$$$
Cardinals should have to throw in a case of Budweiser, two dozen toasted ravioli, and a Clydesdale.
Meanwhile, Trump swears, contrary to the CIA, that Putin had nothing to do with the hacking. But how do we know? Couldn’t Correa be a double agent? If he were, he’d keep quiet and not cooperate.
As for those that hate the Cardinals, they’re just jealous they have the best hackers in baseball.
Are both picks in this next draft
Yes. #56 and #75 I believe. 2nd round and sandwich pick between 2-3 rounds.
Thanks Cardinals! Everyone was bashing Luhnow for this but now it’s all good
He’s still an idiot who should be fired on the spot along with everyone else on his team that re-used old passwords from a previous job at a new job.
But, we all know that doesn’t happen with execs, even the dumbest ones.
He’s an idiot but what the Cards did was way over the top, not to mention illegal. Can’t imagine he was preparing for his old team to hack into the database of his new one.
The only person who should be fired in the situation is Correa, not Luhnow. I’m sure Mozeliak et all new to some extent what was going on, but difficult to prove anything more than speculation.
” Cards did was way over the top” … I think what you meant was what Correa did was over the top.
Good excuse
Yeah accuracy is an excuse nowadays. (eye roll)
Correa was a Cards employee using their equipment, so don’t try and make it look this isn’t on the whole Cardinals organization.
stfu cardinal homer
An employee represents the organization. Thus the organization is responsible for this incident.
The actions of one don’t represent the entire organization. It’s safe to assume that Correa’s actions benefited the Cardinals front office, which is why the organization was penalized. There is, however, no evidence to suggest anyone but Correa was aware of the illegal hacking.
So when a player is caught using steroids, the team should be punished?
It was pretty obvious from this report that only Correa was found guilty.
I guess when a player hides steroids they should suspend the entire organization then and make them forfeit games??
What?!? I assume you work for McDonalds. If I order a BigMac and you spit on it in front of me and try and serve it to me YOU would pay the price and get fired. They wouldnt shut down the Mcdonalds – It would make that location look bad however. Corneas actions put him in jail and they Cardinals got a penalty for it. One mans actions shouldn’t reflect on an entire organization. Also change your password.
But do you really think he didn’t share with the Cardinals? Only then to leak it to deadspin?
He was a cardinal. You can’t claim an employee athlete or front office only when they are good and playing the game legally ! You have to own them , whether it is steroid use or federal felonies.
Suspending the player IS penalizing the team
Of course there’s no evidence, but to think that Mozeliak and his top guys didn’t know is naive. The reason why there’s no evidence is that no trail provides plausible deniability. But to be sure, they knew.
Did you think of this all on your own?
Not always. The Yankees made out great when A-rod got suspended. I am sure they would be really ecstatic if he got caught using today.
Even if it is naive, you can’t just assume that’s the case. In this country, we’re innocent until proven guilty.
So was losing your Scouting Director, 2 draft picks, and $2 million
Love this. Glad MLB didn’t let them off scott free.
Woohoo! As a Cardinals fan I’d say we got off light! This is a relief.
This is gonna hurt there bonus pool which will prohibit them from signing guys to overslot deals
Agreed. I expected a draft pick this season and a first-rounder next season, as well as a larger fine.
The $2MM fine, I believe, is the maximum that Manfred can bring against a team. I’ll look further into that, though.
Good point. Thanks, Steve.
Steve, MLB Radio on SiriusXM has been saying that $2 million is to cover draft slot value of a #56 and #75 pick.
steve, question….
lets say the cards trade for a competitive balance A pick. will that pick now go to the astros, or are the picks going to houston locked in and this new pick is ours?
No, they get the picks and therefore the bonus money with those picks in addition to the 2MM fine
Yeah no big deal at all. Exactly what I expected. Move on
No really.. The Cardinals didnt just lose two picks they surrender them to Houston. Which is fair but it does make the damage deeper.
Honest question emo2002, what kind of penalty were you expecting if this is a relief? I haven’t paid much attention to this topic except for what is offered on this site.
I expected some sort of penalty over multiple drafts – say the first pick of theirs in the next two drafts. Or even more extreme for them to be banned from this year’s draft altogether. Yes the Cardinals could miss out on some potential talent but players are a boom or bust in the draft at times. Cards could get lucky again and get a Pujols in the 13th round. The $2 mil fine seems very low considering that is pennies to a major organization.
As a Cards fan, I couldn’t agree more. I was thinking we were looking at a Red Sox type of punishment. Very happy with the outcome and look forward to moving on.
Hmmm maybe the Astros will be more willing to deal for Quintana knowing they have 2 additional picks in the early rounds of the draft?
I don’t think the picks they received are significant enough to have much of an effect. If it was a first and second… maybe.
I wasn’t really referring to the Astros sending the picks to the Sox (one is a competitive balance pick so I assume that would be movable?). Moreso for the Astros to make up some prospect depth with the draft in June.
cant trade draft picks
One of them is a competitive balance pick, they can be traded.
you are right i forgot that
I know exactly what you meant. Houston isn’t gonna suddenly give up more because of these picks because they aren’t first or between round 1 and 2.
Well, depends on their scouting.
John Lackey 68th
Chase Utley 76th
Jason Giambi 58th
Dustin Pedroia 65th
Giancarlo Stanton 76th
Charlie Blackmon 72nd
Nolan Arenado 59th
Jason Kipnis 63rd
Andrelton Simmons 70th
If it’s anything like their ability to find top talent via trades for fringe players such as the Francis Marte or David Paulino swaps; it should turn out pretty well.
Wow, I had forgotten they turned Jose Veras and Jarred Cosart into those prospects. They also got Marisnick and Moran (in addition to Martes) for Cosart
And the draft pick that they chose Daz Cameron with.
draft picks are overrated.. the penalties could have been worse for STL. as a Cards fan for nearly 60 years, this is embarassing. this is NOT what the cardinals nation expects. it’s something you would expect from the new england patriots.
Of course talent comes from the second and later. What exactly is this trying to prove? How many teams passed on trout? What rounds were pujols and piazza drafted in?
But these picks, while something they may get lucky on, are lowish in value.
Well good thing they signed dexter fowler and lost a draft pick for him too.
So instead of giving up top 20 pick and 56 to Houston, they gave up 56 and 75 while gaining fowler.
They probably had a good idea of what the fine was going to be at that time, maybe it’s why they overpaid for Fowler
Overpaid? They got Fowler for half of what the cubs paid for Heyward last year and Fowler is twice as good as Heyward.
Fowlers contract will be bad at the end
No that’s not how it works
They paid half as much for Fowler than the cubs paid for Heyward and Fowler is twice as good. How is that an overpay?
Fowler’s contract is a little below his value based on WAR. He has averaged 3.1 fWAR over the past 3 seasons which would place his FA value at $24 million per season. He had a 2.1, 2.3 and 2.2 fWAR the previous 3 seasons, so his WAR-based value is probably just north of $17.5 million per season based on those seasons. The $16.5 million AAV he got is pretty reasonable.
Setting aside the question of whether they overpaid for Fowler, I do wonder if this played into their willingness to surrender a draft pick. I think it’s the first time the Cardinals signed a QO guy.
That’s why I figured a pick this year and an essentially protected first-rounder next year would be part of the penalty.
right….and they get a guy who help right away. who knows when or IF a draft pick will ever help you.
Seems light to me.
What more do you want? Do you want some innocent person fired? Do you think they needed to be fined more heavily? Do you think they should have been forced to give up more draft picks? If so, they shouldn’t go to Houston, talk about a competitive disadvantage for the rest of the AL West… When penalizing a team and making them pay reparations of some sort, it’s important to not disturb the competitive balance in the league.
They should have lost a first round pick from the 2018 draft instead of one of the lesser picks from this year.
Cardinals probably regret not signing another player with the qualified offer. Hellickson would have been perfect
Hellickson accepted the Phillies Q.O. He never became a free agent.
Yes he was. During the QO period they are free agents and outside teams can make an offer
that is not true they are not a free agent until they reject the QO and the Cardinals dont really need him
Where do you people get this information from. Brett anderson had offers from multiple teams before taking the qo from the dodgers. Cuddyer would have accepted the qo from the rockies if the mets didn’t give him a deal
they can survey the market but can not sign with anyone until it is rejected
Hellickson would have been starting in AAA. I’d rather keep the 4th rounder than sign him.
As a Cards fan, I’m glad it’s finally over. Losing the draft picks hurts moving forward, but the organization cheated and deserves the punishment.
Really did the whole organization do it because last time I heard it was one guy.
Correa was the Director of Scouting. How many people in the organization have to be involved for it to be considered “the organization”. He was pretty high up on the chain of command and this wasn’t just a one time login.
All of his hacking incidents, however occurred before he was Director of Scouting.
He joined the Cardinals in 2009 as a data analyst. He was promoted in 2012 to Manager of Baseball Development (a mid-level position), and then director of that department in 2014.. All of his jobs with the Cardinals to that point were in statistical analysis. He was promoted to Director of Scouting in December 2014, and fired in June 2015. His hacking occurred from between at least March 2013 through June 2014.
The Cardinals needed to be punished, because they did benefit from Correa’s espionage, regardless of whether they knew or not, but based on the unsealed documents, this smells much more like a employee using illegal means to get ahead in his own career.
He wasn’t the SD when he did this. He received the promotion after and before the news came out.
Hmm … I hope there’s some evidence that Houston actually was hurt by the Cards action. I agree with the Cards losing the picks, but handing them to the Astros seems odd. I doubt they were substantially hurt by the hacking at all.
Well, they accessed Marco Gonzales’ information in the Astros database, and then took him with the #19 pick. Did it prevent Houston from getting him? Probably not, but they used proprietary information for their own gain.
If it prevented Houston from getting him, maybe they owe the Cardinals for that.
I kid, I kid (kind of)
Marco went 19th
The Cards also had the 28th pick
The Astros didn’t pick again until number 40, he wasn’t going to last that long.
More likely, he used another teams scouting information to see if suggesting to the SD and GM if taking him was a good idea or not.
It seems to me the teams hurt most by this decision are the other teams in the AL Central and competitive American League teams. The Cards should have lost the draft picks, but I don’t think this decision to give the Astros two picks is fair to the teams competing with the Astros. Astros fans must love Correa at this point.
The Cardinals get wrist slap and the game goes on.
$2 million is the cost of a backup catcher or 5th OF.
2nd and 3rd round draft picks are meh. About $3 million total in slot money and a 6.6% chance of becoming a major league regular.
MLB just forced the Cardinals to spend a few extra bucks in the FA market in 2019.
Cardinals got off easy
Ouch
This is light. Should have been two firsts.
Should have been much, much harsher. Sorry if you’re a St. Louis fan but “”48 instances over a span of two and a half years”” and then dumping the intel on the internet is devastating for a team. If Houston had done that to the Cards then you KNOW the redbird fans would be screaming for blood.
As Lunhow said from the beginning, by the time anything was released, it was irrelevant. It’s a business that changes rapidly. Lunhow himself said many times that there wasn’t much damage done.
I’m not saying it’s not wrong. I’m glad they’re punished and it’s over. But I knew from the beginning Cardinalities haters were going to be disappointed when the punishment came out.
They were in the Astros’ heads for two and a half years. The punishment should be something that hinders the Cardinals’ player acquisition for two and a half years. Personally I like the ‘Death Penalty’ idea – either force a sale of the franchise or accept a three-year ban from postseason play.
It’s done. You have no say in the penalty. Get over it. You can whine all day or all week and nothing is going to change. With a guy like Luhnow who doesn’t change his password and an incompetent IT staff I highly doubt that this was the first, nor will it be the last time the Astros are hacked. Maybe you should direct your venom at them for being so bad.
I mean, obviously I’m biased here, but I think it’s pretty safe to assume you are, as well.
I’m not saying the Cardinals did not gain anything from it, but it was one guy out of a whole draft team that was accessing it. So yes, maybe he was using the information, but he wasn’t in charge of running a draft by himself.
The Astros are one of my favorite teams to follow, I really hate that this happened. I think the Cardinals, Astros, and MLB were all pretty embarrassed by this and I’m glad it’s over.
Personally, I like the “revoke your internet privileges” idea because you are too stupid to even suggest such a thing there.so as the public should be protected from your idiocy
That is quite possibly the dumbest thing i have ever seen. If the cardinals are banned from post season play, then what is to stop them from tanking an entire 3 year stretch? What exactly do they have to play for? That punishes an entire fanbase, and that is the last thing that should even be considered.
I am not saying they don’t deserve to be punished, but I am honestly torn about whether I even feel that this is a worse offense than Preller lying about medicals for the players he trades away.
This was bad, but in no way do I think that a “death penalty”is warranted.
And lastly, I am going to assume that you are a cubs dan that just wants to see an organization ruined.
Nah, I hate the Cubs. But this is baseball, and it is historically a sport that demands character. if you bet on baseball, you are banned for life even if you are the all-time hits leader. Your teammate threw a world series game? You and all your friends are banned for life.
You infiltrate another team’s data warehouse and steal information for two and a half years? Oh, you’re the Cardinals – just don’t get caught next time.
dumbest idea I have heard so far. An owner who had nothing to do with it forced to sell his team? for one how does it really hurt the Cardinals they could end up with an owner willing to spend more. and a 3 year ban from postseason. even 1 year will never happen the players union wont allow it. It gives the players nothing to play for, wont play up to their standard lose money on contracts. Players wont sign there making 1 less team in comp for them meaning less money to the players
Maybe you didn’t read the part that says Correa(you know, the guy who did it) is banned for life!
Wow, see there. When Rose was caught betting, the Reds didn’t get the death penalty. It was, you know, the person Responsible!
So say the owner was forced to sell…you do realize that a forced sale will devastate the market value…Do you honestly believe that this is worth forcing an owner to take a potential billion dollar loss on the value of a franchise?
Jesus Christ what a stupid thing to say
I think the MLB should actually be so embarrassed that someone that worked for them in a way they should have to fold the entire league
Are you replying to me with that???
Yeah, just like John Podesta. It was his fault.
To suggest banishment or a ban from post season play or a ban from player acquisition is not only steep, but completely unrealistic.
Everyone knew this would be fairly minor, and likely in the area where it landed.
It was a member of the organization. He more than likely, was doing this to advance his own career, as opposed to attempting to benefit others. He is being punished massively, and the Cards received a solid punishment as well.
If you expected more, then you haven’t paid much attention.
Drew – death penalty. That would be funny. Maybe in your baseball fantasy league you can be commissioner and not allow anyone to draft any Cardinal players. Would that make you feel better?
They already don’t have their first pick this draft.
Well I guess in the sense that the Astros draft the highest possible pick this year and then the first pick in 18.
The $2 million fine is all the Astros will get in extra slot money to pay for a 2nd round and sandwich round pick according to MLB Radio on SiriusXM.
Actually they get the 2 picks and the slot money that comes with it. The $2 million is a separate and additional fine paid to the Astros.
Not according to Dan Halem of MLB. He said on SiriusXM that the $2 million is all the Astros get. He said they do not get any additional slot money above and beyond the $2 million which is $147,000 over the slot value of the picks.
The “which is $147,000 over the slot value of the picks” was an aside by me and not something Halem said.
Halem said that the reason it was $2 million exactly is that is the maximum penalty the commissioner can impose. Anything above and beyond that would need to be negotiated with the MLBPA. According to Halem, the players union made it clear they would not go for anything that lowered the amount of slot money available in the draft. That total amount of slot money was “hotly negotiated”.
It was clear that the Astros got all of the money that the Commissioner was allowed to fine the Cardinals and that it would also be all they got in slot money for the 2 picks, not above and beyond the slot money.
Well, technically the Astros don’t “get” any extra money in their bonus pool. They just get a boost in the amount of money they’re allowed to spend on it without incurring penalties.
So in a way, it is like the $2M fine is going towards the bonus pool, since it just about allows them to cover the extra cost of the draft bonuses that they wouldn’t have spent otherwise.
I’m actually really pissed about how light this is. The Astros were humiliated and their private information was used during the draft and the trade deadline.
MLB gets the money and the Astros get a 2nd and 3rd round pick? Manfred is a turd.
You’re pissed about them being humiliated? Then be pissed at whose fault it was : Luhnow.
Big Astros fan, love what Luhnow is doing, but part of this is on him.
Part of this is on the IT squad for Houston for not knowing who was accessing their database also.
You realize Lunhow had nothing to do with Sig Medjal being dimwitted and using “Eckstein123” for his Cardinals and Astros passwords, right? Or do you think there is one mighty password to access the “Ground Control” software?
I have to change my passwords at work every 30 days and none of them can be the same as the last 10 I have used, and that dumbass uses the same password as he used for another organization? And for how long?
Any reasonable person would have changed their password. Maybe Luhnow is actually a genius and he knew this would be a way to get future draft pics from his old team. Ha ha
The money is going to the Astros as far as what they are saying on MLB channel on SiriusXM. $1.2 million of the fine is to cover the 2nd round pick and $800K to cover the sandwich pick.
Just curious , how were they humiliated? What information was released
When the leak happened, lots of personal notes on players were released. The Astros were humiliated in the press for a while until it was determined that it was crime.
They were humiliated because Lunhow asked for some pretty ridiculous returns for average players in trades. That part wasn’t really a big deal. It appears the biggest thing Correa did was access medical information of Astro employees.
Thi is funny
I love how the Cardinal haters skip over the part of the article that says “”the league’s investigation “did not establish that any Cardinals’ employee other than Mr. Correa (who was the only individual charged by the federal government) was responsible for the intrusions into the Astros’ electronic systems” then proceed to indicate that others within the team knew. Never let the facts get in the way of a conspiracy!
Having said that, I think the penalty sounds about right. While it’s a single rogue employee, he was still part of the Cardinals and the team has to share some responsibility for his behavior.
Agreed
I concur. I’d bet my house and car that Correa kept the Cards in the dark as to the source of the info he had. If Correa had said “hey look what I found from the Astros”, they would have fired him immediately and notified MLB immediately.
No other cardinals employee hacked Houston, but they knew it was going on. Correa himself admitted it
According to the unsealed documents of the federal investigation, Correa insisted that he never told colleagues what he was doing.
“He accessed the Astros’ database 48 times during a 2½-year period, according to the same court filing, and another document argues that Correa may have personally benefitted from the information and that he accessed data that could not reveal whether the Astros used analytic approaches developed by the Cardinals. In several spots the documents reference Correa’s statement that he “(kept) his intrusions a secret from his colleagues.”
Hmmm, I seen on Twitter Jeff passan tweeted out what looked to be a court document saying Correa told colleagues about it. Idk though
I remember the tweet, but I don’t remember there being a document. I don’t think Passan actually had the document, since they were sealed and were never leaked. He probably got the information second hand, and got it wrong.
I love how Cards lovers feel like “not able to establish” means they are completely innocent. No, it just means MLB couldn’t prove it. Too bad they didn’t offer Correa a plea bargain if he rolled over on others who saw the Astros info.
You don’t think they did? If not,you’re definitely not familiar with our court systems The FBI did a klotof ddigging trying to come up with others. Everything they could find was linked back to Correa.
so the astros draft pool increases ~30%? their already deep farm system is gonna get a whole lot better.
How convenient for the Cardinals that this be a year where they don’t have a first round pick or a competitive balance pick.
But they do (The second pick they’re forfeiting is a Competitive Balance, Round B selection.)
I meant first round Competitive Balance. Should’ve clarified.
Likely why the sacrificed their first round pick for the first time in 16 years. They haven’t given up a 1st rounder since they signed Izzy in 2002.
So in effect, they get to screw the Astros twice? lol
More likely about preserving organizational value where possible.
Not nearly severe enough. It’s not a complete joke, but not only is it not an effective deterrent to teams performing this type of action int he future, it’s not proportionate to the damage done to the Astros.
At least the League did something, I was worried that they loved the Cardinals too much to do anything at all. I suppose I should thank them for not being completely spineless.
Go Cardinals!
Only cardinals fans love the cardinals, everyone else hates them with a passion.
Jealousy I suppose
Actually I don’t like them because there is a lot of arrogant fans
Says the guy arrogant enough to judge a whole fan base off of a couple life experiences he has.
Haha
Because their fans are an embarrassment ti MLB. Probably brain damaged from their skunky beer.
As I’ve said all along, everyone would be disappointed by the punishment. I’m glad this is finally over.
Way to light
IMO the punishment was far too light for the harm to the Astros and the integrity of MLB generally. History never forgets and this will certainly stand as a black mark on the St. Louis Cardinals organization. Historically, it will probably eventually be viewed as the first (of many to come) modern major sports league hacking scandals.
If all teams IT departments are as incompetent as the Astros, then I think you are right about the hacking being the first of many.
I certainly don’t run a billion dollar enterprise like the Astros, but my employees have to change their passwords every 90 days. It’s automated so they are asked every 90 days to change the password and can’t use one they have used in the past 18 months. We use Google for our email so that they can access anywhere, but it has two step authentication and they still have to change passwords for that every 90 days. Easy peasy. Took my IT guy about an hour to set up.
You would think the Astros would have at least the same level of sophistication as a small business that does about the same amount of business a year as they pay their 1B.
Make sure to be forgiving to the next person who walks into your house and steals your TV because the door was unlocked while you were in the back yard.
I’m not that stupid, I have an alarm, and I live in a gated community.
Someone installed that alarm. There’s a chance knows how to bypass it. Maybe he’ll let himself in 48 times over a span of two and a half years.
Baseball just had two other scandals.
Red Sox and Padres both. Did you miss those?
Cards got off light, I would put hacking another team up there with the deadly sins of baseball up there with gambling and PEDs. At least they got some punishment and hopefully it’s enough to deter anything like this ever happening again.
“All of their top draft picks for the next 3 years, plus 100 million in fines, and 2 players of their choice that’s about right” -every astros fan before the punishment
Not exactly. 2 firsts and 5 million was what I was hoping for.
Sure, let’s take Anthony Reyes and Carlos Martinez. The Astros could use them. Lol
I was blown away to find out that of the 46 month sentence that Correa received, 36 months are for HIPAA violations. Under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, HIPAA medical records fraud has some of the longest jail time and he was charged with 5 counts. He repeatedly accessed medical files and the prosecutors felt that was the most serious violation. Just accessing the accounts of people too stupid to change their passwords was apparently not all that serious. Accessing medical records was and it got him 3 years in jail. He can be released as early as this May.
As opposed to people who are so stupid they blame the victim.
I don’t blame them, what Correa did was wrong. But it is laughable that it was that easy to gain access.
Please. Like half of the Cards execs don’t still have “PUJOLSRULEZ” as their passwords. Only thing is, you don’t see other teams being classless enough to try and hack them.
It’s also sad that you feel the need to comment on something you know nothing about. Correa was a pissed off employee that Lunhow didn’t take him to Houston. This was all done out of spite.
But the passwords in STL were updated to “thankyounelsoncruzfor#11in11”
::Joe Buck Voice::
Best fans in baseball.
Damn straight!
So our second rounder and our pick we get for being a small market team? Not that really, could have been way worse. I’m relieved that’s it.
the only precedent that this sets is that teams should want to get hacked now.
the bonehead correa gained nothing of any real merit in old trade notes and scouting reports of draftees that were probably not too dissimilar to what they had themselves.
whereas all the astros really gave up was a little embarrassment. pretty sure every team in the league would trade that for 2 draft picks and the bonus money they come with.
You lose all credibility when you say they gained nothing of any real merit. You have no idea what they gained, and if it was nothing, why look 48 times? How about the timing of the hacks? Around the draft and trade deadline. Right nothing of anything there. Gtfo of here with that bs
luhnow himself said the info gained from trade talk was dated and insignificant almost immediately after the talks happened.
and stl has a scouting dept themselves. if you honestly think correa told people, “i read on the astros system as to why we need this guy” or something of that nature leaving the source out, then you are mistaken.
the only way he can make an argument to pick someone is to mostly reference their own scouting dept.
So I’ll ask again, if it was meaningless information they got, why keep accessing it?
You’re just a Homer cards fan who can’t see past your own team. Everyone sees it, just carry on. Hopefully we land some meaningful players with those picks and they are always referenced as “cards comp picks”
If the info was so worthless then why access the account multiple times and then release the info publicly?
correa kept accessing it because he was insecure about job knowledge in his field and that he still had the pw.
nothing of real merit was gained for the STL organization. only person who gained anything was the loser correa and none of it was actionable for anything on the field or the minor league system
Stop saying nothing was gained for the organization. It’s ridiculous! In the court docs, the biggest violation was the hippa act which was the major reason for the prison time for cc. Why access the astros medical records on certain players? “Well, you know, bc Chris correa is so insecure about his job”. Do you see how stupid that’s sounds when you read it?
Yeah, the info wasn’t worthless; it obviously helped Correa and the Cardinals decide on drafting Marco Gonzales.
But releasing the info apparently was done by Correa to humiliate the Astros after Lunhow and Sig Mejdal got a lot of publicity for their “Ground Control” data system. Basically, Correa appears to be a Grade A twit.
Man, if only everyone who was angry called everyone else a Grade A twit
You realize Lunhow made those comments before the extent of the hacking came out. At that point all that was known was that the database was accessed at some point and the trade information was leaked. I doubt the Astros draft information was obsolete on draft day.
read what was accessed. Most of the draft guys he accessed were not even drafted by either team. They unsealed the documents you can see what and who he looked at
Any team in the league would trade a pair of picks and $2M to gain unlimited perspective of another organization for 2.5 years. It gives you the ability to more than just see what someone is planning, it allows you to triangulate every decision you make over time. It’s like paying a consulting staff as large as your own organization to help you evaluate all of your decisions. The Cardinals now own something that no other organization has ever owned, and it will benefit them for a generation.
I’m pretty sure Manfred gave the Cardinals the largest penalty that owners would allow, because it is not nearly proportionate to the injury.
I personally think it’s the opposite, Dewitt is a very powerful owner, with lots of influence.over the league, I think they gave the cardinals the minimum amount of penalty that they could justify to the other owners.
>>>”I’m pretty sure Manfred gave the Cardinals the largest penalty that owners would allow, because it is not nearly proportionate to the injury.”
Not really.
1. Manfred does not believe the Cardinals knew what Correa was doing. In earlier statements last year, he said that would be a major factor in what penalties he wanted to occur, and took pains to point out that it is a lot different than what happened with the Red Sox.
“I do not see a great parallel between the Red Sox situation and the St. Louis situation, principally for these reasons: The Red Sox, to their credit, accepted organization responsibility for what went on,” Manfred said. “We don’t have all of the facts in the St. Louis/Houston situation. To date, there has been no implication that this was an organizational problem but there has been an indication that it was one employee, did something inappropriate, the organization found out about it, and fired the employee. Those are very, very different things.”
stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/birdland…
2. The $2 million is the limit Manfred can fine an organization, but, as that article points out, MLB can increase the fine because it has the right to access damages. He chose not to in this case. Mostly likely because, according to the unsealed court documents, Correa apparently wanted to cause $1.7 million in damages against the Astros, so the $2 million is to compensate them for that damage (everything the Cardinals are forking over is being turned over to the Astros)..
3. The draft picks are a pretty hefty penalty for several reasons: (1) the Cardinals lose nearly $2 million in bonus allotment money that they can use to sign their picks, (2) Houston not only gets those picks, but gets that pool money for their own draft picks, and (3) signing Dexter Fowler means that the Cardinals will not pick until the 3rd round, with the 94th pick, which means this is probably a lost draft for the team. For two teams that rely on their farm systems for success this is a big punishment for the Cardinals and a boon for Houston, who now have 5 draft picks in the first two rounds.
In all honesty, this is a fair punishment. There’s no evidence that the Cardinals knew about Correa’s hacking (the aforementioned court documents repeatedly say that Correa kept his actions “secret” from his colleagues), but the team did benefit from the information he gave them and, as Manfred said, they’re liable for his misconduct. So, the Cardinals needed to be punished.
But this….
“unlimited perspective of another organization for 2.5 years. It gives you the ability to more than just see what someone is planning, it allows you to triangulate every decision you make over time.”
Shows a complete misunderstanding of the nature of Correa’s hacking. The court documents revealed that the kind of data Correa mined wouldn’t reveal the Astro’s analytical approaches (which was a big part of Correa’s defense), but was looking for specific information on players in upcoming drafts, such medical evaluations, internal scouting reports, and even trade discussions, that would give him a leg up in his own job, and by extension, would help the Cardinals (such as deciding whether or not to draft Marco Gonzales).. As Lunhow remarked shortly after the news of the hacking broke, that kind of information has a short shelf life, because all that information is fluid. There are no long term affects to Correa’s intrusion..
Good comment. However, you don’t need to see the Astros’ analytical approach in order to extrapolate it from the results. In fact you’d have to be pretty obtuse not to see it, especially if the data was in a database structured in the same fashion as your own and the data was something that you worked with on a professional basis. The individual data points were useful for a short time (over 2.5 years), but the longitudinal view of their asset management gave them a perspective on improving their own process that they will never relinquish. This wasn’t a simple data theft, it was an intellectual robbery.
Great comment
The penalty is a joke. Given that the Cards get Fowler for their top pick anyway, the punishment lacks bite. They should have voided Fowler’s deal and given that pick with the others to the Astros. Don’t give a fig that Cards fans are butthurt over this since they know they got off easy.
The Cardinals didn’t “get” Fowler for their top pick; they signed Fowler as a free agent and lost their first round pick in doing so. That’s unrelated.
They still have to hand over their next two picks to Houston. So, the Cardinals are now not picking until late until the third round. And they lose about $2 million in bonus allotment money, so it’s going to be much harder for them to sign any promising players they do draft to overslot deals. Which, as I mentioned in another post, makes the 2017 draft pretty much a lost draft for the Cardinals unless they get lucky with a late round pick (it happens less than you’d think).
Meanwhile, Houston now gets 5 picks before the third round–the 15th overall, 2 second round picks (53rd and 56th), and the Competitive Balance Pick at no. 75. That’s a nice reward for them for putting up with all this.
The difference with this penalty compared to others is that the team that was injured benefits directly from the team that’s being punished. Doesn’t usually happen that way.
Eh, the loss of pool money hurts but it doesn’t make this draft a wash for them. It’ll probably be a pretty heavy college senior draft, but that’s not uncommon for them to begin with. The Cardinals don’t tend to draft a ton over-slot guys.
This is kind of funny since you used to be the biggest Astro hater here. You used to bad mouth every thing they did. Now that they’re better than your Rangers, you hop on the bandwagon? Or you just still sad about 2011 so you hate the Cardinals?
The Astros gained more than the Cardinals lost. If they play it smart, and the they usually do, the Astros will be able to get some premium talent with later picks thanks to their new bonus pool
Glad that’s over with. Tired of hearing about how horrible the cardinals organization is, and how they should throw the book at us, etc. All three investigations showed he acted alone. He’s in jail. Cards pay penalty to set precedence. Done. Over. Bring on the baseball games now.
you dont think its in mlb’s best interest to keep as much info under wraps as possible? i’m 100% positive there was more dirty business being covered up…considering st louis is a storied franchise
Then more people would have been fired and prosecuted.
Correa wasn’t protected. Nor would someone else
Both good comments with great points. The Cardinals were really in a precarious position when Jocketty was given his walking papers. Luhnow wasn’t ready but his mind wasn’t one you wanted to lose. Mo has done great but don’t think for a second we don’t miss Luhnow. The guy always seemed to see potential in all the right guys. That’s why Correa poked his nose in he knew he was no Luhnow and he couldn’t handle it. Pure jealousy in my mind. At this time in baseball I’d never known a scouting directors name. But I knew Luhnows. He was big in St. Louis and rightfully so. Correa needed to beat Luhnow in his own mind. He went way to far and he’s doing his time for it
Finally a conclusion I was getting tired of reading how they were “close” to a punishment for months lol
way too lenient, but also LOL at cardinal homers who think they didn’t deserve this
I’m not a cards fan and I think its enough of a penalty.
Losing those 2 picks really cripples this years draft for them.
If they could prove more that 1 person was involved, it was way light, but they didnt.
Getting two additional picks in the first two rounds is HUGE for any organization. Houston now has 5 draft picks (15,53,56,75,91) in the first 100 picks. Only the Pirates have the same number of picks. Losing 2 prospects in the McCan trade is another reason this is a big gain for the Astros. It all comes down to scouting but if the 56th or 75th pick becomes any where close to a Nolan Arenado (59th), Dustin Pedroia (65th), Charlie Blackmon (72nd) or Giancarlo Stanton 76TH), PEOPLE WILL BE VERY HAPPY WITH THIS PENALITY.
Especially for a guy like Luhnow. Also allow him to draft and make trades for win now. Two million might not be huge but there are cases going to arbitration over less. Luhnow will do well with those picks(god I miss that man)
Pretty much what I expected all the way around…including the reactions from both sides. As far as the impact on the Cardinals: they prepared for this. They signed 16 Latin players. They went overslot to sign several players. The two compensatory picks in the 2016 draft negates a lot of the loss of the two picks in June. The loss of bonus pool is negated somewhat by the fact they’re not having to sign those picks and the ability to spend over the bonus pool by paying a tax. Finally the Cardinals can compensate for the loss of picks by being aggressive in the foreign free agent market. For all of you who are unhappy, on both sides, deal with it.
This is why Mo didn’t sign EE! He knew if he signed another free agent he would lose the 1st rounder in 2018. That was slick.
I would have thought the Astros would get the actual first round pick and the Fowler pick would end up being the Cards third pick. What if they had decided this punishment months ago before Fowler signed? Unless it was never going to be a first rounder.
Why do you think they signed Fowler? They knew this was coming.
Maybe they needed a very good centerfielder.
Then why did they sign Dexter Fowler?
He’s a very good centerfielder!
The Cards signed Fowler to prevent the Astros from getting their first pick? Doubtful.
Cardinals got off easy. They should have been banned from playing for the entire 2017 season. That would have been a reasonable punishment.
Maybe the Red Sox and Padres should be banned too?
I do see how some could didn’t value their first round pick because they knew it wouldn’t belong to them in the end. Idk maybe. But I think everyone knew the Cardinals had to go out and get someone like Fowler. Forget about the pick look at what they paid the guy. Just so they could give less of a pick to a team in the American League? Let’s go out and drop 80 million plus to screw the Astros. Nah
Justice in the US is hilarious. Someone could steal your Identity, rack up thousands of dollars in your name, and get probation. But hack a MLB scouting data base and all hell descends on you. Murica!
2 draft picks and 2 million is hardly hell for a billion dollar baseball club…
He’s speaking about the individual, Correa
Seriously? If this is the end result, it only encourages the behavior. How about the same action over the next 3-5 seasons.
What individual would even consider this after watching what Correa received as punishment?
What did the Cardinals gain from it?
I’m a Cardinals fan and hate having our name in the mud like this. Contrary to what some believe I feel totally confident Correa acted alone. First of all Luhnow and Dewitt are great friends. As good as Luhnow was here(I considered him the number one man in our front office) he was a business man who played fantasy baseball. That’s the extent of the mans preemployment he had no background. Dewitt took a chance and one that would have made him look like a complete fool had it not worked. He stuck by Luhnow as Jocketty tried to crush him and at that time Jocketty was huge in our organization with quite a track record. Second Correa didn’t just get fired he’s going to the big house. This isn’t some old school gangster here. If he had something we’d know about it I guarantee it. That being said we deserved to be punished. You can’t have rogue execs trying to do things like this and just brush it off because it was the sole act of one man. You have to hire good moral people. You evaluate your execs like players. You miss on a couple draft picks you lose the picks essentially and the bonus money you paid. That’s it. They missed and it’s time to pay the piper. It sucks but I’ll bet it’s the last time
Astros should get an option to obtain either Fowler and the 56th pick or they could stay with the way it is settled now. If they got Fowler, and they don’t need him, they could trade him for a higher pick. Houston should have received the number 20 and 56th!
They should’ve ruled before cards signed fowler. Then the astros would have received 1 and 2 picks and cards would’ve gave up 3rd pick for fowler. Cards also prob would’ve been more aggressive after QO free agents knowing they would be giving up later round picks instead of 1st round. Fowler chose to sign with cards, how could you punish him by forcing him to go to acteam that didn’t want him and that he didn’t want? Makes no sense at all.
Dunno if edited before or after, but Moss signed.
They should have lost 2 first round picks. What complete crap. They knew they were going to lose it, so they had no reservations with signing Fowler.
What a joke. Losing a second and third rounder. Well played Cardinals. Obviously Manfred Mann is your doormat.
I have decided after reading these comments that everyone is correct. I am enraged that the punishment was so heavy, and enraged that the punishment was so light.
All of this “lone wolf” comments are just stupid. During the trial, Correa told the judge that he was not the only one who knew what was going on:
Per bleachernation.com/2016/01/25/convicted-cardinals-…
When asked if he found any Cardinals information in the Astros’ system, Correa responded affirmatively.
“Who did you tell?” the judge asked.
“Colleagues,” Correa responded.
Correa went on to confirm that by “colleagues” he meant people he worked with in the St. Louis Cardinals organization. That seems like a very important revelation, because, if true, Correa just testified that at least some other Cardinals’ employees were 1) aware of the hack and 2) did nothing to stop, prevent or acknowledge the crime Correa committed. In other words, even if Correa did in fact act entirely alone, others in the Cardinals organization knew what he was doing.