The latest on a pair of East Coast franchises…
- Even if the Mets trade Jose Bautista this month, it’s “likely” they’ll attempt to re-sign the soon-to-be free agent prior to next season, Mike Puma of the New York Post hears (Twitter link). Signing Bautista, whom New York added May 22 shortly after the division-rival Braves released him, is one of the few moves that have paid off in a disastrous season for the Mets. The Blue Jays legend has slashed a useful .215/.364/.390 with six home runs in 214 plate appearances during his two-plus-month run with the Amazins. If he does continue his career in 2019, Bautista – who has primarily lined up in the outfield with the Mets after a short-lived third base experiment with the Braves – will play his age-38 campaign.
- The belief is Rays shortstop Adeiny Hechavarria has cleared waivers, Marc Topkin of the Tampa Bay Times tweets. If true, the Rays could trade Hechavarria to any team. Tampa Bay designated Hechavarria this week after watching the 29-year-old offer his usual blend of weak offense and strong defense in 2018. Hechavarria hit just .258/.289/.332 in 237 PAs, but he did total four Defensive Runs Saved in the field. He’s due around $1.9MM for the rest of the season, Topkin notes.
- Back to the Mets, who are in the midst of increasing catcher Kevin Plawecki’s playing time as they look toward 2019, Anthony DiComo of MLB.com writes. Plawecki started for the fourth time in five games Saturday and, per DiComo, is a lock to return to the Mets next season. The only question is whether the 27-year-old will start or serve as a backup. Current starter Devin Mesoraco is set to hit free agency in the offseason, meaning he’ll cede playing time to Plawecki down the stretch. The Mets can still control catcher Travis d’Arnaud for another season via arbitration, but injuries have long haunted the 29-year-old – including in 2018, which ended for him in early April on account of a UCL tear in his right elbow. Shortly after, the Mets lost Plawecki to a hairline fracture in his left hand, but he was able to return in late May. Injury aside, this has been a decent offensive season for Plawecki, who has slashed .231/.345/.372 in 142 PAs. Plawecki is scheduled to go through his first of four potential trips through arbitration over the winter.
How is a guy with a .215 average useful? Why do they need him? Because his salary is cheap?
Because his OPS is still .754. Even if he isn’t hitting for average, he’s still getting on base. Is .754 stellar? Not really, but it’s more than serviceable.
dimitrios in la
And his defense is what?
He still “sounds like” a star name who younger fans may want to see to the point that he’ll almost pay for himself. While most teams will either try to win now or develop young players, the Mutts’ #1 goal is increasing capital for their real estate ventures. Name recognition at minimal net cost seems on par for them.
That really says it all. The “Coupons” main business is real estate and the Mets are a afterthought. Team needs to be sold
Abbott and Costello love to play make believe in the off-season. It’s a perfect move—especially him playing 3B—though his contract will require a catcher’s mask and chest protector along with a hockey goalie’s gloves.
Harper was hitting .218 and was starting the All Star game. You better be upset about that too if you don’t understand stats aside from batting average.
Aside from stats, All-Star voting is a joke. To think it used to determine home field advantage
Agree. Fan voting via Internet is also a joke. Harper belonged in the Derby this yesr on his home field but an all star? Never happen but I wish they’d get rid of the DH except for exhibitions like the ASG.
Useful if you’re talking. AKA trying to lose and get better draft picks.
Because his OBP is .354, which is above average.
That slash line isn’t all that impressive. Mets should be focusing on starters for the field rather than players like Bautista.
gol d. pond
A useful .215? Since when did players hitting .215 become useful? I guess when you’re the Mets walks is all you want, even when you don’t have anyone to hit them in
Oh man, are people still using batting average to measure offense? Oh. I guess they are.
Oh man, are people still complaining because not everyone thinks like them? Oh, I guess they are.
Oh man, are people still making sarcastically ironic comments instead of engaging in a meaningful conversation?
Oh; I guess they are.
Oh man, people are still dragging the jokes on way too long?
Oh, I guess they are!
Oh man, are people still pointing out the obvious? Oh, I guess they are!
“ . . . are people still complaining because not everyone thinks like them?”
This isn’t about thought control, this is science vs. anti-science. Those who have taken the time to study the question, the scientists, have determined that BA is a poor indicator of batter performance, inferior to OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, wOBA and others metrics. Your response wasn’t to criticize the methodology of the scientists, which is always appropriate, but to dismiss those who cite their work as an attempt at thought control. Using BA as an indicator of batter performance isn’t a different way of thinking, rather it’s a lame way of avoiding thinking and doing any relevant homework. Tell me, hiflew, why are you taking the anti-science position here?
Just to tick you off. Didn’t you know my entire life is dedicated to finding ways to annoy you? BTW, if you are so scientifically minded, go do something more important. Someone with your obvious vast intelligence should not be wasting their time arguing with inferior troglodytes such as myself on subjects which have no real relevance to making society a better place. Perhaps you could go and discover a planet or cure a disease or even make a better tasting malt liquor. I will have to tell my grandchildren (assuming I ever learn the science behind procreation) one day that I was able to share the same cyberspace with the smartest man in the universe. I bid you adieu.
PS – I believe I have discovered the “major flaw.”
“Didn’t you know my entire life is dedicated to finding ways to annoy you.”
You are mistaking amusement for annoyance. I can swat flies in my sleep.
“BTW, if you are so scientifically minded, go do something more important . . .”
Sorry, I’ve reached the point where I get to decide how I spend my time and I choose to spend much of it on baseball. If that doesn’t fit your agenda it’s just too darn bad.
Also worth noting that, once again, you provide a passive-aggressive response rather than a shred of evidence in support of your silly position. I’m sure nobody will notice.
“I bid you adieu.”
I prefer arrivederci.
Hey Hi-join the club. Flaw is an attorney in disguise, possessing a complex that makes him always right.
Yea batting average is part of what counts
“ batting average is a part of what counts”
Yes, it’s contained and contextualized in OBP but BA alone doesn’t count for anything. I realize that’s a difficult point to digest, as I can recall a time when BA was the only number you were given when a batter stepped to the plate. Triples are a part of what counts too, yet you wouldn’t consider a player’s number of triples an adequate indicator of his performance, would you?
BA ignores BB as if they did not occur and doesn’t distinguish between a 500’ HR and a 15’ IF single. While not completely useless it is close to being so and it remains difficult to understand why anyone would use BA when there are so many better, more comprehensive numbers available.
Adeiny Hechavarria was worth +1.1 WAR (bbref)
If you use Fangraphs, +0.4 WAR so far 2018
This guy really gonna clear waivers?
Yes he’s awful
I guess teams realize that he can be had at the league minimum without giving up anything in a week. Wouldnt be shocked however to see a team drop a PTBNL for him while TB pays his entire salary down.
The eye test suggests he can play SS with mostly anyone. With a .250 average and he’ll find a new home. Had Boegarts’ wrist been worse, the Sox I believe would have jumped on him to start at short.
Since when is .215 batting average with poor defense useful? Don’t the Mets have anyone better at their AAA level? If not, Cubs will trade AAA OF Zagunis for DeGrom.
Who cares about batting average? Dude still gets on base whether singles or walks. He’s not crushing it but he’s no liability at the plate either. His WRC+ is 105.
A 38year old who can’t defend? No wonder the Mets fail.
Agreed John. WRC+ and other video game stats are good for fantasy and maybe Strat-o-matic but seeing is believing. For those who remember the old Strat-o-matic game, he’d be a “3” or “4” in the field who may draw a walk or hit an occasional homer but will not steal a base or bunt a player over. How is a player like that a positive anything? Name a playoff contending team he’d start for. Case closed in my book.
Those stats are how you build good teams. Don’t tell me teams go around scouting players looking at their batting average
There must be at least 1 kid in the minors equally as good or better that should be playing as opposed to JB
He should have retired and became the hitting coach for the Jays
Ah, Strat-o-matic baseball (I really had to fight with auto-correct on that one): What a waste of time.
Btw, Bautista is a 4 in RF for 2017. Also, a 4 at 1B and 3B.
They have “5” fielding ratings now. Kyle was one at C and LF.
Some teams don’t pay attention to batting average anymore
Agreed. I would actually argue that no teams pay attention to it anymore. The teams have all gotten smarter even if the average fan still holds on to antiquated statistics.
I would argue that knowing the older statistics could make you smarter. I was able to calculate the batting average or ERA of anyone in the game at the age of nine at any time with just a pencil and paper. Let’s take away your computer and smartphone and see if you can calculate anyone’s WAR or wOBA or FIP.
What difference does it make if you can compute it by hand? I’m sure someone can design a 90mph biplane by hand too, but an F22 built with fancy math and computers is still a better tool for many jobs. I’ll stick with the stats and algorithms that most accurately reflect achievement and ability, not those that I can calculate by hand.
Now I get why you came after me after I questioned the significance of RBIs in today (merely suggested 100+ RBI doesn’t make Pujols a great player)
Sounds like you hate (all?) new stats, hiflew.
Lol it’s also smarter to count without your fingers but that doesn’t mean you can evaluate baseball players as well as a GM
amen i agree
BA & ERA made my math better. I could calculate them in my head at the age of 12 because of them, but I’d probably have tried to learn ways to figure them out if they existed back then.
In my view Xab, it’s a faze the game is in due in large part to the juiced ball and bat. While offense creates excitement, the league will realize soon enough so does watching Rick Porcello pitch a gem or great defense by some phenoms currently playing center (see AL East). Starters on the mound should be renamed throwers because most don’t pitch.
“ . . . knowing the older stats could make you smarter. I was able to calculate the batting average or ERA of anyone in the game at the age of nine at any time with just a pencil and paper.”
The ability to do simple math without a calculator is a skill, not an indicator of intelligence. I, too, attended school long before calculators or computers were used. So what?
“Let’s take away your computer and smartphone and see if you can calculate anyone’s WAR or wOBA or FIP.”
I couldn’t do it as I’m not mathematically inclined and I haven’t learned the formulas but there are many who can. You haven’t made the connection between “useful baseball statistic” and “can be calculated with a pencil and paper” other than by implication. Why do you consider BA, a number you can calculate with pencil and paper, a better indicator of batter performance that OPS+, which you probably can’t?
Because instead of you computing the stat yourself, you are placing your trust in someone else to determine you thoughts. Besides, the only reason you think they are most accurate is because someone told you that, not because you figured it out yourself.
Sure BA and ERA might not be the best evaluators, but I could do it myself and have the pride of being able to do it myself. I didn’t have to depend on anyone else to do the work for me. What happens when Fangraphs and/or Baseball Reference shuts down?
I don’t hate ANY stats, they are just numbers. I only hate the attitude of people like you that question the intelligence of everyone that studied the game in the century before 2002 or so. Such as the person that used the pejorative term “antiquated” and people that still looked at them as not smart. I was only pointing out that going to fangraphs and reading a number that you can’t calculate does not make you smart, it makes you a parrot.
The RBI question is a completely separate topic.
IMO, anyone who believes that BA and RBIs mean NOTHING really doesn’t understand baseball. Do they mean what they use too? No they do not. But they do still have meaning.
“The RBI question is a completely separate topic.”
It’s the same topic. “Old” stat not viewed with as much reverence.
“Old” doesn’t mean “useless” nor mean I view people who value RBI #1 as “unintelligent” Your words, not mine. Get a grip.
But I won’t lie to you, the “old stats” debate, fascinates me. (Too many stats, pple prioritize them diff)
Quite getting so defensive! I’m not attacking you, or your line of thinking.
Could be interesting in a few years if as I believe this is a faze that Bill James picked up on. Right now most clubs management view is similar but there could me talk about trades if old school style picks up steam and there is again differences in what management believes is important.
Quit getting so defensive? When I am called out by name as hating something, it sure feels like an attack on my way of thinking.
What feels like I’m “calling you out” by name is merely to inform you this is a comment directed at you, (cuz you can’t tell when > 3 pple reply.. gotta admit that. appreciate it if u “called me out by name” so I know your comment (hopefully not attack) directed at me
Why do you make it so personal..? I engage in debates without insulting others… try it. You’re the master of passive aggressive, and my intention wasn’t (and still isn’t) to attack u.
Back up your replies with facts, not attacks.
“I’m not attacking you or your line of thinking.”
I am. In the past I ran into several longtime fans, folks whose memories went back to the 1920s and had no use for baseball statistics of any sort. They continued to evaluate players with their eyes, while rejecting stats like BA and ERA. Not saying that I agreed with their approach but I did understand it.
What I don’t understand is those folks who pick and choose which stats they like based on what was current when they became fans rather than relevance. It certainly appears that their refusal to deal with modern metrics is borne of laziness, not conviction.
BA wasn’t handed down to Moses along with the Ten Commandments, fercrissakes. It’s a formula someone came up with a hundred or so years ago. The old stats folks treat BA, W-L, RBI, and oddly enough, Saves as if their value is beyond question and it isn’t. Nothing is beyond question. If you don’t have anything substantive to add to the discussion or argument why participate at all.
And yes, I realize that your comment wasn’t directed at me, xabial.
Saves should be changed or eliminated because holds don’t to count. Why not get rid of holds and apply saves to any inning under certain conditions and then have a team saves category? Since winning is most important then give double credit for last inning saves. This gives importance to the concept of a team bullpen. Criteria can be adjusted if others have ways of improving the calculations.
If you think being able to do it yourself makes it a more important stat, here you go:
WAR = (Batting Runs + Base Running Runs +Fielding Runs + Positional Adjustment + League Adjustment +Replacement Runs) / (Runs Per Win).
And with all due respect, I also take pride in some of the things I do, but not basic multiplication and/or division.
WAR = (Batting Runs + Base Running Runs +Fielding Runs + Positional Adjustment + League Adjustment +Replacement Runs) / (Runs Per Win).
Thank you, Ted.
Chris Davis and his .159 average agrees.
to all the smart asses out there who say batting average dont matter. bottom line if you cant hit the fricken ball you loose. you hit the ball you just might win..
I think we can all agree that scoring more runs than your opponent is a good way to win games. I just took a look at team batting averages. The Dodgers and Marlins have identical below average .244 batting averages, but the Dodgers have scored the 6th most runs while the Marlins have scored the 4th fewest runs in MLB. Can you or any of the others here debating the importance of batting average help explain this discrepancy?
We’re not smart asses, we just evolved.
Two teams in MLB that are forever without a plan? Mets & Blue Jays. Fans of both teams deserve much better. I’m all for optimism, but not of the blind variety.
Out of place Met fan
Do you know many Mets fans? The aimlessness of the franchise could be karmic retribution for #MetsTwitter
Both teams had recent semi success. The Jays in my view will be back before the Mutts even in a division dominated by NY and Boston. The Mutts will spend but only just the perceived minimum to keep fans coming back.
Perceived minimum? Isn’t Cespedes at $29M this year one of the highest paid players in the game?
That’s a matter of stupidity prevailing when a deprived child is suddenly in a candy store with $29. With his stomach churning, he picks the wrong candy and with each successive bite becomes less satisfied.
Cespedes’ agent played Sandy like a cheap fiddle. He gifted the first contract and then made him pay for the last one.
And BTW—one contract does not prove that the Mets owners are not invested. They’ve been crying Bernie Maddoff for a (blanking) DECADE.
Look at the poor choice signings this winter. Who in their right mind would sign that group of players? Perhaps their end game was more team sponsorships, however Geritol didn’t bite.
Oh Gordon if I can read your mind….Agree with your comment
The jays certainly have a plan. The only thing we are missing is upper level pitching prospects. We have what looks to be nearly a full all star squad in 5 years (assuming all the prospects reach their potential)
Are all killing it in the minors and should be on the team next year
Plus we have a glutton of middle infield and catcher prospects to use in obtaining a few pitchers
We will suck next year while we wait out tulo and Martin’s contracts to expire.
2020 should be fun tho
Alford can be taken off that list.
I’m surprised there’s no comments about how Jose Bautista is only batting .215. An average that low just doesn’t seem useful.
more interesting hank aaron never struck out a 100 time in a season … new york greatest ” michael conforto” has struck out 211 times in his last 207 games.. dam im confused.. hitting the ball and batting ave dont fricken count..
I’m confused by your grammar and “spelling.”
Interesting coming from a king of an ant hill.
Of course they do. What we have is some arrogant posters who THINK they know baseball but don’t really, like to pretend they are part of some new, in depth understanding of baseball. Is there some new more in depth information? Yes there is but that doesn’t mean some old info like BA, RBIs and home runs don’t still have meaning.
Joey Votto has only had over 100 RBI’s in only two of his ten first seasons. How could you possibly hold it against him that there is no one on base for him to drive in?
No “arrogant posters” think batting average doesn’t matter. They are just irrelevant in a vacuum. If two players both have an OBP of .370, I’d look to a few other stats (including average, but never RBI’s) to determine who is better.
If Bautista is there as a mentor and RH hitter against lefties, sure.
If Bautista is a .215 hitter with an OBP over .360, he is a walker, not a hitter.
Time to rephrase the description of players that cannot seem to make contact with a baseball despite having more advantages than every before (smaller strike zone, body armor, trigger-happy umpires serving warnings). If we’re satisfied with players taking walks, striking out a ton with a low average because their ‘WAR” looks good, it’s time to redefine what a hitter truly is.
Top 5 batting averages in the major leagues happen to be teams holding playoff spots (Boston, Chicago Cubs, Cleveland, Atlanta, Houston). As much as you WARriors want to preach OBP and OPS, you still need to hit the darn baseball. Hard to drive in guys with walks.
I think Hechavarria would make a good fit for the Brewers, at least as a late inning defensive replacement. As a much maligned Mets fan, I never want to see Jose Bautista again!
In this thread: a few dudes who decided to totally ignore every other stat imaginable and therefore cannot BELIEVE that a player could have a .215 batting average and be called “useful”.
Mind numbing. Grow up.
He’s also 38 justin turner overdrive, and that’s a whole other issue. Enough with the veteran retreads, and let’s see if any young players we have can help our future.
Useful? Lol. Must be because of the Dominican fan base in New York City. The Mets are a sorry franchise.
As a Mets fan, I can confirm we are a sorry franchise, and we deserve better!!!
Particularly in such a huge market. Sad to see.
The Mets play in a large market? Do the owners know?
Sure Abbott and Costello know that they play in a large market. They are able to rob more stupid fans than if they were in say, KC.
Then majorleaguemind, its time to join the Mets boycott.
No more Mets tickets purchased
No more SNY
Post on social media.
Pulls money out of mutt and Jeff’s wallets AND embarrass them.
The point is they say their planning on contending next year. And one of those pieces is a 38 year old who is no longer an impact player. Plus where are they gonna play him? Outfield? That makes no sense. Plus I guarantee you will see the same 2 catchers who started this season start next. Since the Mets have all the confidence in the world in them. I can’t believe they actually thing anyone still buys their BS.
That’s the point JWR…
DON’T buy it!
Join the Mets boycott.
No more ticket purchases.
Do not Watch SNY.
Post on social media that you want MLB to force an end to the farce. Embarrass Mutt and Jeff into selling.
This is depressing when they talk about Batista and plawecki as someone to look forward to. There is no turn around with this team unless hey sign big name players. No farm and already talking about players that are washed up to resign. This hurts following an organization that has no idea.
Big name players who are worth signing WILL NOT sign with the Mets. Look at last winter’s signings—they were the team of LAST RESORT.
Players worth signing want to earn the most AND have the BEST chance to win.
The Mets strike out on both counts.
Plus, can you imagine Scott Boras sitting down with those clowns?
Just to join the “ baseball metrics” discussion. The game has lost the “eye test”
A player is what his stats say he is and what we see he is. Nobody with a spreadsheet is going to tell me any different. The WAR is obviously a bunch of crap when a replacement level player obviously sucks when teams start guys that hit around.200