Baseball fans everywhere were stripped of high-level trade deadline intrigue last season, as Ken Rosenthal details in a stunning report for The Athletic, when a trade that would have sent Bryce Harper to the Astros in exchange for a trio of prospects was nixed by Washington’s ownership group. The trade, said to have been agreed upon a day before the July 31 deadline, would have sent 2017 first-rounder J.B. Bukauskas to the Nats, as well as two other prospects, one of which was reportedly catcher Garrett Stubbs. Though Bukauskas faces questions about a third pitch, which could relegate him to eventual relief duty, and Stubbs has cooled after a blistering 2016 performance for Double-A Corpus Christi, the package was surely superior in value to the compensatory pick the Nationals will receive should Harper depart in free agency, which, as Rosenthal notes, will come after the fourth round in next year’s draft, by virtue of the club exceeding the luxury tax total in 2018. Houston, which received middling corner-outfield production from Josh Reddick and Marwin Gonzalez last season, would certainly have benefitted from Harper’s presence in a lineup diminished by injuries to Carlos Correa and a substandard season from George Springer, though the departing asset cost would’ve assuredly been hefty for only two months of the 25-year-old superstar.
- Though no official reason was offered for the disapproval, Rosenthal speculates the Nationals owners may have been worried about damaging their relationship with Harper in the offseason to come. The club, after all, did offer Harper a reported $300MM over ten years on the last day of the 2018 season, and figures to further its aggression in efforts to sign the generational talent. During the August waiver period, the club also shot down a Dodger effort to acquire Harper, according to a report from the Los Angeles Times. It appears this offer, which reportedly included outfielder Yasiel Puig at its center, was nixed at the front office level, though it’s certainly plausible that previous ownership mandates were a significant factor in the team’s eventual refusal to depart with the star. Puig, certainly, would have been an intriguing return for just over a month’s use of Harper – the 27-year-old has had his share of on-field dustups, to be sure, but has remained a force at the plate: in an odd reverse split, the polarizing Cuban has put up a 142 wRC+ against right-handed pitching the last two seasons, good for 12th among qualifiers in baseball during that span, and is under team control through the 2019 season.
- After being stonewalled in their Harper pursuit, sources told Rosenthal that the Astros pivoted their attention (to, obviously, no avail) in the final hours to White Sox outfielder Avisail Garcia, dangling right-handed pitching prospect Francis Martes, whose damaged right elbow was apparently of no concern to the Southsiders. Garcia, who’s been around replacement-level in five of his six major league seasons thus far, seemed an odd target for an Astro club not much in need of a right-handed boost – the 27-year-old, after all, posted a minuscule 1.4% BB rate in the season’s first half, and again sunk to a level of below-league-average production by the time his season ended in knee surgery in mid-September.
MetsYankeesRedSox
Yankees
#Fantasygeekland
Padres
RedFeather
Jets
kreplech
Jets
EndinStealth
Nets
ryanl1204
Jets
costergaard2
Winnipeg or Florham Park ?
xabial
In the past, Boras has given the Yankees discounts for star OF who wanted to play for them.
“In 2004, Boras reached out to Yankee officials and said his client Carlos Beltran preferred NYY would accept a contract for 6 years, $99.6M, $19M less than the Mets
Yankees didnt want to pay 40M extra in taxes, top of contract, and did not want to do that, even if given the chance to pay about $19M less, than Mets had to pay.”
Of course things were different then. Mets actually paid nypost.com/2005/01/10/for-mets-third-choice-a-char…
baseball1600
Ok. What the hell is your point. If a player wants to play somewhere, of course they’d take a discount.
Slevin
I think his point is the Yankees can work with Boras on signing Harper.
bringoutthegimp
And so can the Nationals.
MetsYankeesRedSox
It’s more fun downvoting ey & Mr Marmalade but I guess you’ll do.
xabial
Don’t mind baseball1600, just Giants’ fan who thinks Giants sign Bryce, or Machado Lol
Slevin
He’s one of the two crazies on here that think the Giants will.
Slevin
I thought we were simpatico
baseball1600
Screenshotting this comment for when the Giants sign Bryce
MetsYankeesRedSox
Screenshot this one too.
You have NO life!
Slevin
ey is writing a screenplay based off this screenshot
bravesfan88
I lol’ed…Got Heeeeem
baseball1600
Never heard that one in my life. Enjoy being a fan of the Yankees, Red Sox, and Mets.
baseball1600
It’s also quite hilarious how triggering a simple comment is. Can anyone bring forth solid evidence disproving the possibility of the Giants signing Bryce? No. So I will continue to believe it as a possibility until I’m proven wrong. Have a nice day.
Balk
Baseball1600, it’s about time I finally hear some common sense out of someone on this sight. I really don’t care if the Giants grab Harper or not. But the facts are, just like Boras said, is he loves San Francisco, loves the fan base. I’m sure if the Giants made an offer it would be a competitive one. Not sure if that’s there plan though. But definitely possible.
Balk
Baseball1600, look at all the down votes! Lol, not one could give you a reason why it’s not possible for him to go to the Giants! Just down votes! Cracks me up! Low baseball iq yankee fans! Lol!
Balk
What’s crazy is that Yankees fans still believe the front office is going after another outfielder, much less try and take Harper and move him to first! Lol! Pitching is there and should be the fans concern. CC isn’t going to cut it. Harper is no more going to the Yankees then he’s going to the Giants.
baseball1600
Hey man, I know how it goes on this site, but I don’t really care about the downvotes. They are there for a reason, and if someone disagrees with my opinion, than so be it, it’s the point of the system. I just don’t agree with many of their justifications for disagreeing, because the Giants have just as much money as anybody, and I’ve heard people talk about how Tampa is more likely to sign Harper than SF, which is absolutely hilarious. I get how many dislike the Giants, but revenue is revenue, and if they really wanted to, they could sign Harper.
Slevin
One name that sums up the Giants lack of appeal…Giancarlo Stanton
jleve618
I think giants are definetely a top 3 spot for bryce. Way higher chance than yankees unless they trade stanton to dodgers.
baseball1600
Slevin, what are you going on about? Are you assuming that since Stanton didn’t want to play for SF, a team he grew up rooting against, that Harper is inclined to believe the same? I understand why you might disagree with my opinion, but are you seriously going to assume that since Giancarlo didn’t want to go to SF, Harper automatically doesn’t want to either? That’s extremely low.
Cashford64
Slevin “One player didn’t want to play for the Giants, therefore noone does.”
Brilliant.
AllRiseForTheJudge
That’s what they said about Stanton last winter when he was destined for the Giants or Cardinals and ended up with the Yankees for half the return.
As long as Bryce Harper is a free agent, all 30 teams have an equal chance of signing him. It doesn’t matter what a team’s current roster looks like, you find ways to make room for a guy like Harper.
– Yankees fan
baseball1600
Before you play the “Giants future is trash” card, just realize that this contract will be over 10 years. Please think logically, is Harper seriously concerned over how the Giants may be right now? For all we know, the Astros could lose 100 games in 10 years, and the Orioles could win the World Series in 10 years. Alright, I’m going to conclude my case, I wish you a fantastic day.
AllRiseForTheJudge
Don’t lump all Yankees fans together. Is it possible for Harper to sign with the Giants? Of course it’s possible, just like it’s possible for him to sign with the Marlins, Reds, Royals or any other last place team.
Why won’t he? Because the Giants aren’t going to seriously pursue him. They aren’t a contender, they don’t have the pitching behind Bumgarner to make a serious run at the division as long as LA is as good as they are, and adding Harper doesn’t win SF the division. It MAYBE gets them to the Wild Card game, but even if they win that they don’t have the pitching to make it out of the first round against LA or the Cubs, or even the Brewers. They’re one more bad season away from blowing the whole thing up and starting over, and if they’re out of it next July I’d be willing to bet Bumgarner is a Yankee.
Adding Harper is a put-the-team-over-the-top move, and he doesn’t put the Giants over the top. He doesn’t even get them to the dance. That’s why he won’t sign with the Giants.
– Yankees fan who understands baseball.
callingoutdummies247
Xabial, the queen of posting articles in the comment sections of article. Well done your majesty
callingoutdummies247
Harper is the most overrated player in professional sports. Career .279 hitter with only 2 seasons over 30 HR, only 1 season with 100 RBI. He won the rookie of the year in a year where Wade Miley, Todd Frazier, Wilin Rosario and Nori Aoki rounded out the top five. Rosario had more HR, RBI and a better BA and OPS than Bryce. I wish the Media would stop over rating this guy. He’s good, not great and definitely not generational. Mike Trout is a generational talent. (I’m like Xabial only I use stats and write my own comment and not plagiarize other people)
xabial
“Xabial, the queen of posting articles in the comment sections of article. Well done your majesty.”
You make no sense…
It wasn’t even the longest post here. If was too much for you, maybe that makes u the dummy
(I’m like Xabial only I use stats and write my own comment and not plagiarize other people)
“QUOTES” (?) u know meaning of plagiarism?
xabial
Only conclusion can come up with: Mets’ fan.
I’m sorry, guy.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
baseball1600 and balk – I won’t say the Giants are out. There would be an upside for them as far as fan excitement. My reasons and logic though tell me that it would be a bad business deal at this time because, let’s be honest, the Giants have an aging club and work to do. I had to look up their payroll and I saw it was between $142M and $162M, depending on which site one trusts, which is affordable for Harper. BUT to me, the roster is aging and they have to make a decision. I do not believe the Giants are one move away from contention. They are he 3rd best team now in the NL West (D-Backs I am saying 4th due to the Corbin loss). I believe signing Harper may excite the fanbase, but it will hamper them on improving elsewhere.
Does my opinion matter? Not one bit. Could I be wrong? Yes. You asked a sincere question and this is how I see it from the outside. That all said, if Bryce Harper wants to play there, he will. So I am in the minority who think about 6 teams are within reason.
On a personal note, I hope he signs there. I don’t want him.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
xabial – You don’t plagiarize. I would love to think he is a Mets’ fan too LOL
I wrote like 3 long posts tonight. It is a Saturday. You can tell I have no life.
I should have just read yours and wrote “xabial, ditto,”
deweybelongsinthehall
I guess I’m the other one. When the sun sets I see Harper either resigning with Washington (when the money he’s expecting isn’t offered and Boras creatively saves face) or the Giants, relatively speaking a lot closer to his home than the East coast or Central based teams that might enter the bidding.
deweybelongsinthehall
It must be true because #1 East coast Giant fan Mad Dog Russo believes it will happen. In this case so do I should he leave Washington.
deweybelongsinthehall
Slavin, the Giants have a great fan base and beautifully park. Granted the ball doesn’t fly out like elsewhere but Harper less so than Machado doesn’t need a hitter’s park. Stanton grew up in Southern CA so perhaps that’s why he didn’t want to go to SF. Most players will go where the money is. Stanton got hus snd a no trade so he was able to dictate. More players if everything is equal would probably rather want to play in SF, a great area to live in that mist of us would also want to if we could afford it.
Knowthemarket
So the Giants sign Harper and they become the Angels of the NL West. Harper will become Trout part two.
Slevin
Oh so now Stanton didn’t want to play for SF because he grew up rooting against them, and it’s not because he saw no chance to win there anytime soon..lofl
Some Giants fans are in complete denial. No I don’t believe these two nuts make up the entire fan base, because theres quite a few who post reality on here.
Slevin
Yea because Mad Dog was so right about the Yankees running away with the division in 2018…lol
MetsYankeesRedSox
I’m waiting for the screenplay of all this Harper to SF nonsense.
WestCoastSoxFan
Agreed 1000%. Somehow a guy with ONE top-10 MVP finish became a “generational talent” because Scott Boras said so. He’s young, so that obviously helps, but I don’t see ANY reason to pay this guy top dollar on a 10+ year contract. The team that does that will seriously regret the back half of the deal.
Slevin
Synopsis of the screenplay…Giants sign Harper-Because he loves the city of San Francisco so much more than any other. Harper-breaks all of Bonds single season records. Harper-single handedly carries the Giants to the World Series, and comes out of the pen in game seven to strike out Boston’s last three hitters to win the ship. Harper-is made mayor of San Francisco, and solves the homeless issue by providing free housing to all…fade to black
WestCoastSoxFan
San Francisco USED to be a beautiful city. It was one of the best cities in America(even within the last 10 years). But the homelessness and open drug abuse on the streets have taken over now. I’m almost afraid to go there anymore. It’s a shame what happened to that city.
Balk
I think you make valid points towards the signing of Harper. IF they decided to spend big it would be for the reason that next year or the year after they could be big contenders. People have to remember though, that Crawford, Longo, Posey, Belt could put together a potential big season, and return to form and surprise a lot of people. So with a couple of pitching additions and a power bat, That can move the reconstruction right along. Agree or disagree doesnt matter to me. The good thing is they are on the rise.
Balk
You’re sad Slevin! You’re a hater plain and simple. Low baseball iq. Period
baseball1600
He’s one of those one sided baseball fans. Only thinks his team is the best, thinks every other team has major flaws, yet knows virtually nothing about baseball. It’s quite sad that there are commenters like his on this website. I don’t mind Xabial, because he does bring some valid points from time to time, but Slevin is completely one sided and should just keep his mouth shut for topics he knows nothing about.
Slevin
There’s one team, and one team only. You two need to get a room.
bigkempin
So you bring up 1 instance from 14 years ago….
Balk
What’s funny is Yankees fans believe they are the superior team, and that every player would love to play for the Yankees! Lol, joke. Shoot, kid slevin up there swears the Giants are going into rebuild mode! Lol, I agree, the giants have a mess, but that mess includes a team full of injured players, and contracts that have no trade clauses. Crawford, Posey, Longo, Belt won’t be going anywhere. That leaves Panik and MAYBE Bum, and for Bum, IF they were going to trade him, be ready to give up mlb ready talent and some. As for Harper, that isn’t out of the question that he doesn’t sign with the Giants. As a Giants fan, I could care less to see him in a Giants uni. He’s really been a spotty player. The Giants don’t need another one of those guys. I see three rings built with players who had chemistry. Without that chemistry, you end up like the Dodgers, with a lot of star players and no ring. (To many chiefs, not enough Indians.) happy Saturday!
Balk
Look at all these Yankees haters! lol. Love it. Love to watch another team like the Dodgers try to find that chemistry Lol. Like I said yankee fans are jokes!
Slevin
boohoo spanky ain’t gettin no love.
Kenleyfornia74
A team without chemistry is the Dodgers? What a bunch of garbage. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about
Balk
Ok, where’s the chemistry? Year after year after year, in fact for six straight years they have won the division. So if I don’t know what I’m talking about how does a wild card team come in and win a ring? Chemistry. Guys that bond on the field and learn how to win together. That means the Dodgers would fall out of that conversation there dude. Sorry man. But I think I do know what I’m talking about. And if it was all about a player wanting to play for a certain team, why pass up on 300 MILLION? It’s about money, not about wanting to play for the Yankees! Lol, joke!
Slevin
Actually I was offered a job last spring with the Giants, but decided to turn it down. I took a job with an organization that’s got a much brighter future..Sears.
Balk
Tokyo Giants? Not bad, but Sears probably would pay you more that’s for sure!
Kenleyfornia74
There are many reasons why they have gone all the way to the world series and lost for 2 years in a row. Chemistry has absolutely nothing to do with it. None. I will say under Mattingly it was an issue but he has been gone for 3 years. Under Dave “chemistry” has been fine
Balk
Well, that’s where we disagree! I see a team that every year goes out and spends big on players that come to your club with there own agenda. Machado had no chemistry with your team, Darvish had no chemistry with your team. And that’s underneath Roberts. So there’s two of the six etc…etc
Kenleyfornia74
They haven’t brought in a bigh priced free agent since Greinke. I feel like you are viewing the world with orange and black glasses. Darvish was fantastic for the Dodgers all the way until the WS. He choked bad in the WS but didn’t have any trouble before it. Whats more logical, tipping your pitches or all of a sudden laying an egg because of “chemistry”
quxdraw
Chemistry? Where was this great Giant chemistry in 2016. Best record in 1st half, worst in 2nd. Lost game 4 against the Cubs with a meltdown in the 9th. Should not this great chemistry, the bonding o. the field learning how to win as a team been able to win that game? How about the last two years, 98 and 89 losses with payroll of over 200 million, where was the chemistry then. Injuries is not an excuse.
Blue_Painted_Dreams_LA
This is probably one of the worst things I’ve heard in a while. Chemistry? Why did the Red Soxs beat the Dodgers? Well because they were better. The Dodgers this year were a very good team. They basically went full platoons with any b****ing. The last two years chemistry has not been the issue at all. The fact of the matter is the Dodgers had a small margin for victory and ended up faltering when they had chances to put the game away or keep the game close. Sure Machado wasn’t necessarily a fit. But chemistry didn’t cause Darvish to get lit by the Astros. I mean they had such bad chemistry last year they took it to game 7. Stop it please. The real answer to the question of why they didn’t win last year was bc their stars didn’t execute. Even with Darvish failing, if their stars execute then this isn’t a talking point. Jansen not missing 0-2 mid mid, Kersh holding one of two leads so on so forth. This isn’t the Mattingly/Colletti Dodgers with a toxic clubhouse, this team as whole has shown to be unselfish. If clubhouse chemistry was an issue this team would have packed it in with the injury of Turner and when Seager went down especially with Jansen faltering out of the gate.
Balk
All who say that chemistry between players doesn’t play in baseball is absolutely crazy. In 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 the Giants have been trying to retool and couldn’t find that chemistry along with production from their players. Having good players on your team doesn’t equal a ring. My point with the Dodgers. Having not one prediction in 2012, 2014 that the Giants could make it to the show and beyond that even win it all shows that the bond those players had with each other defeated the Verlander team in Detroit, and Kansas City. That’s the chemistry I’m talking about.
thegreatcerealfamine
X, I’ve been reading these articles over the last couple weeks on Harper, and I totally agree with you. I think they really want him, and I think he’s always wanted to wear the pinstripes. Add in Corbin as a signing and it would be a pretty solid winter.
thecoffinnail
He didn’t give them a discount on Ellsbury.
Steve scott
Harper isn’t worth buying. Period. He’s an average player at this point in time. He was above average when he came into the league, but his below average energy and his attitude make him the player he is today. I just don’t see a team winning with him. He is overvalued for what he exhibits in play. The Washington Nationals are best served getting anoth Max Scherzer and an All Star catcher for even the $300m offered to Harper. Thank God, that he turned it down!
mikeyank55
Boras tried because Beltran didn’t want to play for the Mets
Alex Bregman
I bet J.B. could strike out Bryce 6 out of 10 times. A stud arm plus another strong prospect for a ‘clown’ who rather play for the Yanks, Dodgers, or Cubs anyway. Bad move Nationals owner. J.B. is unreal…bad move.
jb19
I bet the real Alex bregman would have had a comment similar to this one… but I agree, that’s a great trade package for half a year of Harper. Doesn’t even matter whoever that 3rd unknown prospects was.
joedirte4life
The Nats ownership was dumb. They could have gotten 3 prospects
unpaidobserver
But then been unable to extend Harper, which is what they intended. We should credit an ownership group for trying to keep its stars even at a noted prospect cost.
mdbaseball05
I definitely think they should have traded him. Trading someone at the deadline to a playoff team when you’re out of the playoff picture for half a season doesn’t impact whether the player will sign back with you again. Look at Chapman. He was traded to the Cubs midway through the season, then signed back with the Yankees.
I’m sure they believe it would have hurt their chances, but I’m sure Harper understands from a baseball perspective. The only way it hurts their chances is by it allowing him to see what it’s like to play for a different franchise.
JKB 2
Disagree. They could have tried to extend him before the deadline. No excuse. Bad move by Nationals
imgman09
Once he rejected 300 Mil. He gone!
Cam
Unfortunately, every man and their dog knew 300mm with no opt outs wouldn’t get the job done. Except the Nats, by the looks.
Blue_Painted_Dreams_LA
You think they didn’t know or more so wanted to put on a good face for their fan base? A 300 M offer isn’t anything to laugh at. Granted there are no opt outs and as a first offer it lacks, but this seems more like hey let’s show we at least tried a little.
KP23
See, I think the nats, also knew he’d decline the offer, it seems like they also leaked the offer purposely to the media to say to Nats fans, that they tried to get him back, saves face with a fan base that would no doubt be upset after letting arguably the face of the franchise go, not to mention the repeated posturing by the front office in the media saying that they want him back
KP23
Blue painted and I, posted the same thing. It’s the only obvious answer, rizzo is not a dummy, he is actually one of the few that seems to have a handle on how to run a ballclub well, outside of them not winning a series, he’s had his team in it consistently for a while.
WestCoastSoxFan
Remember when they shut Strasburg down because they’d have a bunch of other chances and Strasburg got hurt anyway? Good times. Rizzo is in over his head.
natsgm
Strasburg reinjured his elbow?? Them shutting him down was a main reason he wanted to stay with the Nats. Shutting him down was the right call and there is so much evidence to show that
MetsYankeesRedSox
He’s fragile
WestCoastSoxFan
Strasburg is fool’s gold. They’d be better off spending that money elsewhere. Whenever you need him most, Strasburg is MIA.
jleve618
Not to mention you KNOW there was deferred money in that contract offer.
WestCoastSoxFan
Red Sox need to think this way with Sale, Bogaerts and Porcello next season. It would stink to see them all leave for a 4th round pick.
mikeyank55
Your prediction will come true and become your nightmare. Too bad Trader Dave has emptied the farm system. Like happened I. Detroit, he will be long gone when the evidence builds for the ruins of the franchise.
WestCoastSoxFan
You could be right, but I won’t care because he already won a WS and has them in fantastic position to do it again next year. Also he hasn’t traded anyone good anyway(other than Travis Shaw).
astros_fan_84
Wow!
I wonder how that would have effected the ALCS?
indiansfan44
Probably wouldn’t impacted it much. Even if Harper replaced Gonzalez you would think it still would of been Miller coming in for the matchup and Miller wasn’t himself this year. The Astros were the better team regardless and probably still would of been a sweep.
Whyamihere
The Astros played the Red Sox in the ALCS…
nymetsking
The baseball season ended when the Indians lost. The Astros, Redsox, Dodgers and Brewers all took a trip to Vegas.
mikeyank55
Awesome insight King!
It’s interesting when a fan can develop broad understanding when their team drops out of contention in May.
How many Mets games did you attend this summer when you were doing diligence in this study?
Rocket32
Probably wouldn’t have changed the end result. No one was beating that Boston team this year, and I don’t think 1 player changes a 4-1 series loss to a series victory.
Brandon
I don’t know. It felt like the Astros were putting guys on base all series and just never could find the timely hit to plate a few runs. An impact bat like that added to the middle of the lineup could have changed a lot. Just one of those “what if’s” with no real answer.
Kenleyfornia74
Both packages were pretty nice for the little amount of control Harper had left. If he leaves they really will regret not getting more for Harper than a comp pick
RedRooster
I doubt whether allowing Harper to finish out the season playing for the defending champs who were looking just as good as the year before and to not be eligible for a QO would have damaged their relationship with him.
JKB 2
Exactly RedRooster
WestCoastSoxFan
Exactly. Especially since Harper is a Boras guy and will sign the highest offer anyway.
Waitings The Hardest Part
Nationals should have traded Harper.
Also, the Nats shouldn’t sign Harper.
They should extend Rendon
Let Soto, Robles, Eaton be their OF.
Sign someone like Jon Jay to be the 4th OF in the event Eaton or someone gets hurt.
Resign Ramos to be the primary catcher or give up the pick theyll have to sign Grandal since theyll net a 1st for Harper.
Either trade for Starlin Castro or sign Cabrera or Harrison to play 2B.
Pick up some SP depth- 1 or 2 of Sanchez, Ross, Hellickson, Richards, Cahill to serve as depth.
Get some pen help.
sidewinder11
They won’t net a 1st for Harper. Exceeding the luxury tax puts their compensation pick a lot lower. Not sure exactly where though
Whyamihere
After the 4th round. It was mentioned in Rosenthal’s article, seems like it would have been good to included it in the blurb on this site.
mdbaseball05
I agree for the most part. I don’t think they need a 2B .They have a veteran at the spot already and they could just shift Kieboom over there when he comes up since Turner will stay at SS.
I like the idea of Ramos again. For pitching, I wouldn’t mind seeing them pay someone like Keuchel to add to the rotation. And yes, extend Rendon and get some pitching depth/bullpen help. Rosenthal was a great addition already.
Knowthemarket
Yep. I agree with where you are going. That could be a really good outfield. Sign Grandal and you have a pretty tough line up.
WestCoastSoxFan
Harper is very good, but enough with this “generational talent” crap. Mike Trout is a generational talent. Harper is a stud, for sure, but he has one top-10 MVP finish and he doesn’t seem to be improving at all.
SuperSinker
Mike Trout is a transcendent, inner circle HOF player.
duke1776
Nationals owners and management are a joke. Harper will be on a different team next season and you’ll get nothing for it.
seamaholic 2
Meh. They have a great OF without him. Better off using his payroll slot on a pitcher. Much better.
Samuel
I like Rizzo a lot. But for 3-4 years now he’s made questionable moves that hurt the team.
It’s coming clear that no matter their good intentions, the Lerner family’s interference hurts the teams performance. It’s not Rizzo and his staff.
To start, they wouldn’t authorize the going rate to pay Rizzo’s choice as Manager a few years ago – Bud Black. They stuck Dusty on him. Oh, he won a bit. But he screwed up the clubhouse and pitching. Enter Martinez. A nice enough guy that changed the line-up, positions, and roles daily in 2018, leaving the players in confusion (they played so sloppily that I stopped watching them in early July). The teams weak spot? Pitching depth. Two aces, a closer, and pray. Bud Blacks specialty? Pitching.
Ah, HA! Now we know why veteran players want out of there. Howie Kendrick suffered a major leg injury in LF which ended his season. Why the heck was Howie playing OF?
Marc (Phillies Phan)
I agree with you, except I think Rizzo is an idiot as a GM and the ownership only knows him and Jim Bowden. In probably most other organizations, he would have been gone with one of the many managers they all fired.
But I agree with you on the rest; though I think some of this is Rizzo not having any backbone with them OR going along with a bad plan. Either way, not good on his part.
Thumbs up.
Samuel
How exactly is Bryce Harper “a superstar”?
He wins HR Derby? He walks a lot? His hat fly’s off when he’s running the bases really, like, you know, honestly, actually, really really hard.
The guys a 2nd rate OF. Not a very smart player. Hit .249 in 2018. And Fangraphs had him 78th in 2018 MLB WAR.
Hello!
Codeeg
This is 2018, if you cite batting average as a measure of any value then you’re losing credibility.
steelerbravenation
Ok so now in the sabermetric world Batting Avg holds absolutely no value ? So please enlighten me to the actual analytics that are most important to the number crunching geeks that were never good enough athletically to succeed in sports so they crunch numbers to discredit the actual good athletes to say none of them are good enough. Oh my bad the only player in baseball according to them is Mike Trout everybody else sucks.
Your right it’s 2018 and WAR and it’s concept is still the stupidest thing I ever heard. My bad you geek’s god Bill James saying players are as important as beer vendors is the stupidest thing I ever heard.
simschifan
Very well said, batting average does matter, Hawk Harrelson once said Todd Frazier is better than Kris Bryant even though his batting average was like.218. He also said batting average doesn’t matter, well it does if you bat 10 times and only get one hit and that hit is a homerun, yes you have a high slugging percentage and a homerun and rbi, but if you go 4 for 10 with 3 doubles and a walk to me that is more valuable.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
I will take the thumbs down. I am progressive with my 2018 beliefs but sabermetrics are terrible. When the A’s win it all (with Billy Beane at the helm) I may change my mind. Old school stats are fine, WAR I can handle, but if you accept that batting average is worthless, then I guess we need to close part of the Hall of Fame and evict people. Just sayin’
KP23
Eh, hollow argument, because of course batting average matters, however, Bryce Harper is a star, and forget the stats, follow the money, multiple teams will be in on him for 300 plus, you’d think they would know more than you here on a chat board. Harper’s plate discipline is ridiculous, what you’d consider a “down” season, many teams would sign up for every single day, and you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think the guy effects the pitching behind and in front of him, many teams aren’t pitching to him, at all, if he’s as bad as you say, teams would never do that. Shake my head at the wannabe trolls on here, I can’t believe some of the arguments. Harper’s not a star, but mlb marketing and media, teams and money, fans, aside from a few dullards, Say otherwise, if he doesn’t get paid like a star, i’ll gladly say I was wrong, but I doubt that will even remotely come to pass. Keep catching you’re daily Bryce not a star Harper updates, here and any other baseball related blog, i’ll hang up and listen to your response
mdbaseball05
@Phillies Phan I find it interesting that you say you’ll believe sabermetrics are terrible until the A’s win it all under Billy Beane. Really, so it’s World Series win or nothing for you to believe it?
No credit to the fact that the A’s won 97 games despite playing in the AL West? They had a better regular season than the Yankees last year despite having a team salary half of the Yankees. And yes, I realize the Yankees had 3 more wins, but they also got to play the Orioles 17 times. The worst team in the AL West finished 20 games above the Orioles.
I just don’t see how you can discount sabermetrics. Yes, BA can’t totally be discounted, but there are better stats that give a better picture. Lots that goes into it.
Samuel
Willie Mays was a superstar. Mickey Mantle. Ted Williams. Jackie Robinson. Others.
Sure they affected how pitchers approached batters in front of them. I played ball and know it’s true.
But they were pitched around routinely. They walked a lot. But they also put balls in play. They never hit .249 in their prime when they weren’t injured.
You like more new wave stats? I gave you Harper’s 2018 WAR. Heavens, Nimmo of the Mets finished 30 places ahead of him. Rookie Juan Soto finished 14 places ahead of him. I was on here saying I’d watched Nats games, and that Soto was a better overall player. Got scolded for that.
There are now dozens of stats out there. MLBTR, other stat blogs, individual geeks, agents and front offices can cobble together favorable or unfavorable profiles for players they like or don’t like. Happens all the time. The fact is that like Darryl Strawberry, and Hershel Walker in football, Harper came in with a world of talent. Opponents and teammates were awed by their physical abilities. All of those guys had their moments, and some very good years. But did they dominate as superstars?
MetsYankeesRedSox
Little League?
Samuel
“No credit to the fact that the A’s won 97 games despite playing in the AL West?”
@goplen05;
Just stop with that.
The 2018 A’s were 33-40 vs teams +/= .500.
They were 64-25 vs. teams -/= .500.
They beat up on the crummy teams. Couldn't play with the big dogs.
justin-turner overdrive
They got beat up by Houston early in the season, its very misleading to post stats like that when the breakdown of those stats tells a way different story. The A’s were awful until June or so, no one is denying that, but they ended the season way better than those numbers.
justin-turner overdrive
Why do the A’s need to win when Theo has ripped off Beane’s strategy to a tee and won titles already? Bostons first title is the first true Moneyball title, because Theo just did what Beane did.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
goplen05 – Thank you for the honest questions and being respectful. I appreciate that. I am very open to new things. I have been very open to sabermetrics. We do agree that there is a place for them. I cannot deny that they are a tool to use. I also am writing this at 1:45am, so I am hoping my thoughts are given honestly and I am writing them clearly.
I actually like the A’s. I like Bob Melvin and they are rooted in Philadelphia. But where I have a problem is any team (or in life, any person or organization) that introduces a new concept and backs it up. If the A’s had outed sabermetrics and won a World Series (or even appeared in a World Series), to me that would lend some credibility in how to use it. The Astros and Red Sox, to their defense, used stats and then adjusted on the fly. No offense to the Dodgers but that is why I believe the Astros and Sox won it. I could go back further, but for the sake of argument….
Furthermore, I have a Ph.D. and I know stats and I can give you a lot of info from traditional stats. I am no better than anyone. I only give that piece of advice to say that traditional stats should never be discounted. Yes, a batting average does not tell everything – as no one stat does. But do I really need 3-4 stats that tell me the same things that a baseball slash line can tell me? I can tell you he had some bad luck in 2018 with the slash line. That looks better than his 1.3 WAR,
All of that to say, if we discount a batting average as the one poster said, we may as well kick people like Ted Williams out of the HOF because his .406 average in 1941 did not even earn him an MVP.
Yes, that is sarcasm (not at you) but I am opposed to discounting traditional stats and I believe sabermetrics have a place, but I do not like how they are used.
Hope this helps explain it. You seem very nice and I wanted to give you an explanation.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
Samuel, watching the Nats play the Phillies all year – I will also go on record that Soto was a better player this year than Harper. The key here is Harper is a good player, when he is on. He is streaky and his stats show that. Soto was consistent.
I won’t say Soto is an overall better player. When they both retire, I will answer that. But in 2018, Soto was.
Samuel
@Phillies Phan;
If you’re looking back in – thoughtful comments on your part.
Here goes…..
Forget stats. I watch a lot of MLB games and have for 50 years. Winning teams and players try to play clean, consistent baseball. Physical errors happen, and are accepted. Mental and fundamental errors – not so much.
Soto is 19 years-old and in his 1st ML season. He played solid D. Threw to the right base depending on the game situation. Ran the bases smartly. Worked pitchers well. Choked up with 2 strikes shortened his swing, and put the ball in play.
Harper is 25 in his 7th ML season. He plays inconsistent D – takes bad routes to balls, often misjudging them which cause him to throw the ball in off balance. His head is often not in the game on D (maybe thinking about his last AB?), and often throws to the wrong base – showing off his arm strength like a middle school kid. He swings with all his might no matter the pitch count, and tries to pull everything, hitting into shifts instead of massive open spaces. He is a stubborn, immature player that is still running into walls – i.e. not knowing where he is on the field, what he can do to help his team win, and what not to do that puts his team at risk.
Harper has been consoled by numerous managers, coaches, FO execs, veteran team leaders, and even his father. He continues to play me-first, look-at-me baseball. Like Grady Sizemore before him, he will never have the impact on games or the numbers that his God-given physical ability would dictate. In short, he is a bull-headed, low baseball-IQ player.
Samuel
@Phillies Phan;
Contrary to popular movie lore, Billy Beane did not bring computerized stats into the modern game. Sandy Alderson did, and hired Beane as a FO guy. OBP over BA? Branch Rickey valued that starting in 1915.
Sports are about competition. The lousy teams and the lousy players beat themselves more often then not. Beane goes after the low hanging fruit. His teams look at stats daily, and take the game to young and injured players. In 2018 they racked up 97 wins by beating the tar out of rebuilding teams whose managers were testing young players and allowing them to grow. Beane had his manager doing match-up’s as if each game was the 7th game of the WS. Quality teams rest their stars against those teams.
Billy Beane teams have won one playoff series in 20 years. Totally understandable. Like a boxer whose manager schedules the also ran’s to build up his record, only to find himself at some point overmatched in the ring against a quality opponent that knows how to box.
–
The 2018 A’s were 33-40 vs teams +/= .500.
They were 64-25 vs. teams -/= .500.
They beat up on the crummy teams. Couldn’t play with the big dogs.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
@Samuel, good thoughts on Soto and Harper. I wrote that at like 1am, but in the end I was agreeing. My only other point was I would want to see where Soto is in 7 years before I said which one was better overall. Right now, I would take Soto over Harper as a Nationals fan.
Never saw Moneyball. Don’t care to. Yes, I know Beane was not the architect, but he took on the role as the “face” because of the movie. The face of a product has to own it.
nymetsking
Did you also not see 78th in WAR? Is WAR too 2016 for you?
WestCoastSoxFan
Not only that, he’s suddenly a “generational talent” simply because Boras said he was. He’s damn good, but he’s had one top 10 MVP finish in his career. There’s nothing “generational” about that.
Syndergaarden Cop
Nats front office a joke
marijuasher
Puig my friend. Hope he stays in LA.
Papabueno
Trading Harper at the deadline was a must. Nats were out of it, and they needed to get something more than a pick. It would have increased Harpers value in FA by removing the draft pick penalty.
Nats payroll won’t support a long-term $35M per season contract anyway. Complete fail by Rizzo and the Lerner’s.
Samuel
“Complete fail by Rizzo and the Lerner’s.”
How is it a “complete fail” by Rizzo (and his staff) when they set-up the trade?
batty
Every off season we get reports of trades that didn’t happen, so this is nothing new. That said, not trading a player that can net you 3 decent, to above decent, players and settle for a low tier comp pick for the QO offer is short-sighted on the owner’s behalf. Trading a player into a competitive situation, such as the Astros, would likely have been very much appreciated by Harper. That alone might have helped sway his return to the Nats in free agency. It would have been a smart business decision by all concerned.
Seriously. If i’m that player (Harper) and i’ve played the early part of my career knowing and understanding that ML baseball is a business, then i’m questioning just how intelligently are the owners running the Nats organization. Allowing sentimentality override business smarts doesn’t bode well for the future.
Aaron Sapoznik
If the Rosenthal trade report involving Avisail Garcia to the Astros last summer had any credence to it then Rick Hahn ought to have resumed those discussions with Jeff Luhnow at the recently concluded GM meetings. Hahn should have made it clear that despite the no avail trade of Avisail he remains more than available. Garcia’s or rather gracias! lol
Priggs89
Not sure I’m buying that story, especially if the damaged elbow was a non-issue for the Sox.
steelerbravenation
I love Ronald Acuna but if he doesn’t sign an extension before his final year of arbitration than the Braves better trade him and trade him in the offseason so they would have time to find replacement level production.
I understand the players have minimal time to make their money and I am all for them getting as much as they possibly can. But in the same breath a player not taking some sort of discount to play for the team that developed him is showing no loyalty to the fans who supported said player during their development time.
#Fantasygeekland
That depends entirely on whether they are competitive that year or not lmao
Whyamihere
How about the Braves pay him an above market rate to show loyalty for the years that he provided value for being paid far less than he deserves?
steelerbravenation
I am just using Acuna as an example. They signed Freddie & Teheran to contracts so I expect them to do the same to Acuna and Albies.
I am just saying if he gets into Harper’s situation and turns down multiple contract offers they better trade him to fill needs.
justin-turner overdrive
Haha Harper pretty much would have been the difference between Boston and Houston – the Nats pretty much could have gotten Houston another title but didn’t so they could get a terrible draft pick instead hahah MLB FO incompetence is really funny sometimes
brandons-3
The Nationals know Harper and Boras better than a lot of teams do. They better feel really confident in their ability to resign with them because if not, it’s just bad management. All of a sudden you’re a franchise whose could only win four division titles in seven years with Bryce Harper and other elite players.
DannyQ3913
Phillies are getting Harper. Trout will be a Phillie starting 2021