Dallas Keuchel is the newest member of the White Sox, courtesy of a three-year, $55.5MM deal with a vesting option that could push the final value of the deal to 4/$74MM. At 31 years old, Keuchel can’t be called an upside play, nor is he likely, given recent performance, to repeat the kind of output that saw him earn a Cy Young award back in 2015. But, in committing multiple years and an $18.5MM AAV to the lefty, the White Sox seemed to, for the moment, answer an age-old question: just what is the value of “pretty good”, anyway?
For front offices in recent offseasons, “pretty good” has seemed to be a non-starter. When Keuchel was on the market just last winter, more than a few observers offered opinions on why the lefty struggled to find a long-term deal: there was the dip in velocity; the mid-3.00 FIPs; a resounding lack of strikeout oomph. Few argued that Keuchel was an incompetent pitcher, but words like “impact”, “upside”, and “premier” were not what one would have ascribed to him. A year later, debate will likely still follow his receipt of a deal that, if vested, will be within throwing distance of a $100MM.
Then again, if the case of Dallas Keuchel and his recent forays into the open market say anything, the commentary may be more about the current qualifying offer system than anything else. Sure, one could argue that the prorated, one-year, $13MM deal he signed with the Braves last year was of the “prove it” variety— a chance to show that downward trends in velocity and underlying metrics wouldn’t threaten his bottom-line results. But did Keuchel really prove that in 2019?
Across 112.2 innings with Atlanta, Keuchel basically pitched to career averages. His 3.72 ERA (3.67 career ERA), 7.27 K/9 (7.16 career K/9), and 60.1% GB rate (58.9% career GB rate) in 2019 were all in keeping with his broader body of work, if not slightly better. Meanwhile, he continued to show diminished velocity (88.3 mean mph in 2019) and his 4.72 FIP would tell you he was somewhat benefitted by the defense playing behind him in Atlanta—leaving some remaining question as to whether his performance is sustainable. Basically, Keuchel is the same guy who entered last offseason in search of a long-term deal—except one year older, and, perhaps more critically, free of a QO. For those inclined to criticize this deal as an overpay based on what the lefty received last offseason, it would pay to bear that in mind.
Within the context of this offseason, Keuchel checks in comfortably below what Madison Bumgarner received from Arizona. That five-year, $85MM was slightly lighter in terms of AAV, although that was likely a secondary consideration with respect to the opportunity to maximize guaranteed dollars—plus, we know Bumgarner was rather adamant about ending up in Arizona and may have left richer offers on the table. Meanwhile, it trumps what Kyle Gibson earned, and is miles above the one-year, $9MM guarantee that Julio Teheran—another player comfortably within the hall of pretty good—received from Los Angeles. This may not register as brilliant analysis, but, for the moment, Keuchel’s deal seems to occupy its own little window in the winter of 2019-2020.
For a relatively recent precedent, we might look, perhaps a bit ironically, to the four-year, $67.5MM contract Nathan Eovaldi drew from the Red Sox in the very same offseason that saw Keuchel left out in the cold. Eovaldi was likely able to earn that sum because of his relative youth, postseason performance, and, of course, premier amounts of impact/upside. Keuchel was lacking in a few of those departments last offseason, but, then again, he offered a few things Eovaldi did not: a broad track record of stability, numerous 30-start seasons, and a sinker-based repertoire that may prove more immune to season-over-season vagaries. He may lack Eovaldi’s horizon, but he offers a “pretty good” floor. That Keuchel should ultimately line up alongside Eovaldi in terms of AAV is perhaps a fitting commentary on his value.
So, what say you? Is this an overpay for veteran stability or a reasonable investment in the market’s mid-point? Just what is the value of pretty good, anyway? (Poll link for app users)
laswagn
Someone might want to check if Friedman still has a pulse.
coachjpark
Dallas Keuchel would have a hard time slotting in as the 5th pitcher inn the Dodger rotation.
bitteroldman
So would most mid rotation starters in either league. Come up with a real comparison.
sorayablue
You’re proving his point, no?
juanpursuit
He’s saying that the Dodgers didn’t need Keuchel.
Bochys Retirement Fund
Can’t imagine he was ever high on their radar.
But solid B overall. Maybe even B+ when taking consideration the teams spending habitats, having a ton of young arms and need for consistency. Plus Kuechel is still a solid pitcher in his own right
halos101
Was sort of suprised/bummed the angels didn’t top this at first, but really… i wouldn’t want keuchel for 18.5 mill for the next three years. That money will be better spent elsewhere than on an average, declining pitcher. Good for sox though, not a terrible deal for a club like them looking for a veteran who can produce at the same time
delete
The Angels need to overpay and take some risks to have a competitive rotation within their limited window of contention.
californiaangels
limited window ? once pooholes and Simmons are off the books theres 40 mil more to spend and really start
Ejemp2006
Simmons is a generational glove at SS. His bat is never gonna be consistently good but he certainly isn’t the reason the Angels suck.
That being said, the Angels would be wise to bring in some ground ball specialist and play to their strengths. Porcello and Keuchel would have nice. Bring us October Trout.
Vizionaire
pooholes? you are the lowest!
gmenfan
Who let a kindergartner on here ?
braves2
yea but they will probably pay some 33 yr old has-been 40 mil a year for 10 years
halos101
limited window is a stretch
delete
Unlimited? What are you trying to say?
bass86
I think what he’s trying to say is there is no window. They play in the same division as the Houston Astros. easily one of the most talented teams in baseball.
Phantom X
Houston doesn’t have too much longer as the top club in the AL West.
RockHard
+1
rct
“Houston doesn’t have too much longer as the top club in the AL West.”
They’ll be fine. Home Depot always has trash cans for sale.
bhambrave
The Angels’ window is just now opening. They need Ryu.
delete
The Angels need an entire pitching staff before their window opens. Adding Ryu doesn’t get them to the wild card game. they need to act quickly. They have already wasted more than half of Mike trout’s career
Brain
Trouts career will be entirely wasted with the Angel’s when it’s all said and done. Such a shame.
davelsu
I’m a ChiSox fan & it’s an obvious overpay but its basically a supply & demand situation. A decent innings eater with a sub 4.00 ERA is now a rarity. Shorter term and won’t kill the franchise if it doesn’t work!
TheMick7
Look, it’s a good signing. Sub-4 era, 121 era+, 4 xFIP. And all the Angels’ fans have criticized everything from the Cole signing, to this signing and pretty much everything in between. Funny how everything they do seems to be defensible and miraculous…. like “we wouldn’t overpay like this, so we don’t want him anyway.” The reality is when Simmons goes, yes they will save money for a starter, they have to find a replacement ss, which, if baseball history is any indication, will cost quite a bit of money.
And for comparisons, look at MadBum – one year apart in age, and most of the metrics are very similar. Plus Dallas has that heavy sinker with a good ground ball rate. He’s never really relied on velo so he shouldn’t decline too quickly.
Whifff
Good points. And MadBum would get killed giving up all those flyballs at Guaranteed Rate Launching Pad. Keuchel a better ballpark fit.
TheMick7
Yes, very true, MadBum’s xFIP is almost a full point higher. People vastly underestimate Dallas’ 60% ground ball rate in today’s fly ball game. Combine that with the ChiSox middle infield and that’s a recipe for success. They’re going to be better than many of the critics on here think, whether they like it or not. I’ve said before, when their young pitching gets going, they’re going to have a nasty rotation.
Plus, they got Grandal, who is one of the best catchers in the game right now, imo……Thanks man.
fox471 Dave
Xfip, era-/+, etc. Gotta love the saber metrics. Is he a decent pitcher or not? Was this a good pickup for the Sox or not? Will he provide value to a second tier team? Yes, yes and maybe. End of story.
TheMick7
Fox471, I think all three answers are yes, but the reason for sabermetrics is because everything else is purely subjective.
It is effectually countering an argument with factual information that is incontestable. But, I’m this case, your opinion is supported by metrics. It’s like saying who cares about batting average and homeruns, he’s a great hitter. It is counterintuitive, sir.
Could be
I think CWS infield D will be pretty good and Grandall will help all pitchers be better. Yes an over pay but team will be good this year. Get Cespedes wont cost anything and a good relever we are done.
antibelt
Why Cespedes? Same amount of money can get you Puig. They still need to search for one more swingman 6th starter type. That rotation definitely needs more depth.
Priggs89
Giolito
Lopez
Cease
Gonzalez
Keuchel
Kopech
Rodon (middle of year)
They aren’t signing any more starters
EarlAverill21
A solid B. He’ll give you around 3.50-4.00 but you’re certainly paying for it. However, the White Sox desperately need a guy who can do that if they want to compete for the ALC. He’s immediately their #2.
Moneyballer
It’s a C at best he’s another John Danks. Far from a shutdown starter but will grind out games and give them a chance. Meh.
ramonskee
Danks won a World Series, won a Cy Young, had a 4-2 playoff record, and won 4 Gold Gloves? I must’ve missed those seasons of baseball.
BasedBallGuru
No, but he had a no-hitter in teeball.
Almost as recent as when DK did those things.
Aaron Sapoznik
You are missing a lot ‘more’ than just “those seasons of baseball” with your ridiculous comment. For a moment there I thought you were referring to Mark Buehrle and just bestowing a CY Young Award on him post-retirement. You’re description is also very close to Buehrle ‘clone’ Dallas Keuchel who actually did win a CYA in 2015 with the Astros.
myaccount
Come on, Aaron Sapoznik… He was literally naming Keuchel’s accolades to chide the Danks’ comparison, obviously.
dynamite drop in monty
…. whoosh
ramonskee
A-Aron: Stop typing so many words and start reading more words. Must be a pleasure to deal with you on a daily basis…
Aaron Sapoznik
John Danks? You mean the White Sox southpaw the team chose to extend rather than re-sign a true Dallas Keuchel comp in Mark Buehrle.
Danks was a ‘grinder’ until his left arm began ‘falling-off’ shortly after that extension. Keuchel had a couple of injury issues relating mostly to his back and neck in 2016 and 2017 but never an arm ailment like the shoulder issues Danks suffered through until he finally had to retire. You must have also missed the fact that Keuchel won a Cy Young Award in 2015, was a two-time All-Star, has 4 Gold Glove awards and earned a World Series ring. Danks had none of that on his MLB resume while Keuchel can still add more hardware to his since he won’t turn 32 until New Year’s Day.
Robust Scouting
In baseball years, 2015 was a long time ago. What a player did almost 5 years ago is not relevant. Especially when you compare it to his most recent years. This is an overpay. This is baseball now. A #4 or 5 starter is getting $14-18M a year now. It’s sad but true.
artfay
I don’t think the grading scale is to evaluate Keuchel’s talent and velocity. I’d give it an A since it’s exactly what the Sox needed:
Consistent innings with QS to balance and eat innings while all the flame-throwing ace-types develop
towinagain
Great move by the Sox. No ones expecting him to be the pitcher he was with the Stros but he will provide solid innings and flashes of brilliance. Hes not a strikeput guy relying on high velocity, hes a savy vet and his experience will only enhance the Sox rotation.
Dbird777
He’s been no better a pitcher the last 3 years than Gio or Miley yet somehow gets more than twice as much money and AAV. Another Boras smoke n mirrors act and the Pale Hose fell for it lol.
ramonskee
Three years ago, Miley was 8-15 with a 5.61 ERA. Are you sure you want me to continue? OK, I will – Keuchel’s ERA has been North of 3.75 only once over the last six seasons!
Dbird777
Keuchel’s WHIP has skyrocketed the last 2 years and his peripherals are even worse. The White Sox—and every other team should’ve known and paid him no more than Miley.
ramonskee
His WHIP the last two seasons fell in between his first two seasons (ERA was ~5.20) and his seasons 3 thru 6 (ERA was ~3.00). Guess what the in between ERA is? ~4.00. The Sox will take that in the AL especially with that 60% GB rate at Guaranteed Rate Field.
Jeff Zanghi
I feel like Gio is the outlier in all of this… I don’t really understand why he got so little $ and only over 1 season. I mean look at the Red Sox signing Martin Perez (5.50+ ERA) for almost the same $ ($1.5M less) than Gio. I agree this is probably a slight overpay BUT I think more inexplicable is that Gio Gonzalez was such a massive ‘Under’-pay
Nationals17
Keuchel is a Boras client, Gio isn’t. That’s the difference.
Robust Scouting
Gio is 34
Could be
Saw a Bumgarner Gonzales comp and they were remarkably similar…. a bit of an overpay on Keuchel but Gonzales was cheap
Robust Scouting
Compare Bumgarner and Gio post season stats. That’s what teams are banking on. Get to the playoffs and watch them shine. That’s MadBum.
AtlSoxFan
Also chalk some of that up to Perez being a bad signing by a rookie gm who doesn’t know better
johns-11
Does japan have robots call8ng strikes 🙂
MikeyHammer
Japan has giant creatures ravaging their cities, Goldar and Silvar will save the world, nevertheless.
ChiSoxCity
Wow, you just brought me back in time. Don’t forget Spectre Man.
fishy14
I would of rather had Tehran for 1/9 and I’m a die hard Sox fan
ramonskee
How does it feel to be The Lone Wolf on a topic? Must be a cool feeling.
myaccount
Lone wolf? Look at the poll. Lots of Cs and Ds. Massive overpay, which I’m sure they had to do.
ChiSoxCity
Why do so many fans treat major league baseball as some kind of financial sim game? Keuchel’s AAV is about what you’d expect for a 32 year old lefty with some hardware in the trophy case. The Sox obviously overpaid slightly by about $2M annually, but who cares about “nickels”? The Sox still have substantial room to add to the roster later.
mike127
@ Chisox—thank you, thank you, thank you…..you nailed it. It’s certainly not a financial sim game—every team, every owner has the ability to pay whatever they want to any player. Every once in a while the contract turns bad–but it’s never about the amount they pay (they have the money)…every once in a while the length of the deal bites them. Most fans can’t even fathom the money, nor understand it…….speaking for myself, I can’t scratch the lowest of low league minimums when I go to the bank……so I kind of just wait and watch the games as they are played. It’s not my money that is paying these guys.
8ManLineupNoPitcherNoDH
Youre just trying to justify a move your team made to make you feel better about it. It’s not a good signing dude.
MoRivera 1999
Not if that’s what it takes to bring the pitcher onto that team.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Its also opportunity cost/value. Keuchels value to a non contender like the Os or Marlins is middling, even negative if it gets you a few more unneeded wins. The marginal value associated with getting a young White Sox staff over the hump, aiding in development, logging innings, is huge…similar to the outsize value of Lester to the Cubs in 15, where he was more valuable in that environment than anywhere else. Solid A
fox471 Dave
You obviously are a fair weather fan and will never be satisfied.
phillyballers
Is Keuchel a lefty? I’m going to ask 1 more time, is he a lefty? Okay so really we should only compare his contract to other lefties that have signed i.e. MadBum, Cole Hamels. The velocity issue doesnt phase me much, as long as he is producing a high GB%. His 200k season is more anomaly than the norm. He is a #2-3 on a marginal rotation or on a good rotation a #4. This is kind of the going rate for FAs in that role that have had success elsewhere. Solid B signing. Ryu is the riskier lefty signing, albiet he is the better pitcher.
Jeff Zanghi
Why can you only compare LHP to LHP and RHP to RHP? That makes 0 sense… I’ll say it one more time… that makes 0 sense.
phillyballers
If you don’t know that LHP are more valuable than RHP you know jack about baseball. There’s a reason LOOGY existed until they changed the rules for pitching changes due to abuse and not a ROOGY.
ChiSoxCity
It’s called a Market. Lefty staters are more rare, and the Sox needed one.
mike127
You do understand that the Astros went to the World Series and all the way to game seven (lost, I know) with exactly ZERO lefties on their pitching staff, don’t you?
ChiSoxCity
I said the SOX wanted one, not me. Strategically, it makes sense to deviate against lineups that don’t hit lefties well, but a good pitcher is a good pitcher no matter what arm they throw with.
TheMick7
Wellllllllll, the Astros also had a little “help” getting that far too……. just sayin’
Koamalu
80% of hitters are RH. That is why Astros had the platoon advantage in most games.
mlb1225
If he is given a full and proper spring training, I could see some improvement from 2019. Not back to all-star levels, but something similar to 2018 (3.70 ERA/FIP, solid walk rate, high ground ball %).
The Ghost of Bobby Bonilla
Biggest overpay I’ve seen in baseball other than Miggy Cabrera or Pujols.
But not my money, so go nuts White Sox.
ramonskee
Mike Hampton?
Jason Heyward?
Mo Vaughn?
Kevin Brown?
Craig Kimbrel?
Yoenis Cespedes?
Were you just born today??
TheMick7
David Price
Giancarlo Stanton
Zach Wheeler
chippahawk
Chris davis and Josh Hamilton have entered the building
zpgreen
Vernon Wells has entered the chat.
maximumvelocity
The irony of the Ghost of Bobby Bonilla complaining about an overpay.
Paulie0514
Bobby is still gettin’ paid!
ChiSoxCity
Why even bother responding to this dumb post? Oh, wait…
Soxfan8722
3 year deals with no draft pick compensation aren’t in the conversation of worst overpays. Its the 6-10 year contracts that can financially ruin some teams. I don’t love the guy, but it’s a good signing
fox471 Dave
Geez! The further I scroll down, the dumber the comments get. Gerritt Cole was a good signing for nine years and $324M. Keuchel was a terrible signing for three years and 54M. Cole may or may not earn his nine years of pay, with one good year (two?) behind him. Keuchel has proved he is a good pitcher.
bush1
Cole is the best pitcher in baseball and a true difference maker, whose peripheral and performance were at a career best before the signing. Regardless, of him getting paid massively there’s an argument he’s well worth it. Keuchel’s arrow has been pointing in the wrong direction for years now, he’s older, and has very very little upside. It’s pretty obvious why his signing is viewed more harshly.
BeeVeeTee
Correction, Cole was the best pitcher in the MLB since joining Verlander in Houston. Verlander helped Cole establishment himself in the past two seasons, but prior to that Cole was somewhat a fading star in Pittsburgh in the two years before that. Cole’s velocity will start dipping in a few years and that contract is going to look bad.
bush1
Obviously eventually the end of the contract won’t be great, but the Yankees have the best pitcher in baseball whose pitching out of his mind right now and figured out how to maximize his enormous stuff. All that has an enormous cost because everyone wants it badly.
someoldguy
and the oft missed point: Teacher for those sterling young arms who will benefit… Intangibles are very valuable… they can lift teammates mired in mediocrity to much greater things.. Cruz was an inspiration and inspired the youth.. I was hoping the Twins would make Kuetchel one of the 2 starter signings they needed..along with the ace they don’t have.. But no.. now I see the White sox on par with the Twins.. and I doubt there will be 300 HR driving the offense this year..
ramonskee
A lot of luck, on both sides of the ball, will need to continue for the Twins if they want to repeat. I just don’t see it.
bush1
Apparently, leading all of MLB in homers and setting the all time record in homers is all luck based. It’s not that difficult to see why they could succeed again even with a mediocre pitching staff.
someoldguy
in their 103 loss season the Twins hit 200 Home runs… home runs don’t pitch and don’t play defense… right now the Twins have a starting rotation of Berrios, Odorizzi and Pineda with Dobnak and maybe Graterol.. thats 2 rookies they have to count on, No 1st base man to speak of.. a porous infield defense, Buxton may or may not come back from shoulder surgery and hit the ball.. Odorizzi is a 5 and fly type pitcher.. Last Year most all things that could go right went right… if there are 2 things that matter in baseball that are not that well understood Luck and Timing .. these will not be the same next year chances are… Virtually zero chances the Twins hit over 300 HR again.. they may fall back to the 200 level..
TheAdrianBeltre
For the reason you named, I thought the White Sox might go after Porcello…
axisofhonor25
This is a great signing. Just listened to a podcast with Chuck Garfien interviewing Steve Stone, the color commentator of the White Sox. This signing wasn’t just about fortifying the rotation, it was about bringing Keuchel’s leadership, playoff experience, and mentoring skills to the rotation that desperately needed it. He also doesn’t need a lot of velocity being a control pitcher. He and Gio Gonzalez rank as some of the top pitchers who paint the corners and that’s coupled with a catcher behind the mound in Grandal that is known to steal a couple of strikeouts for his pitchers. Add in Keuchels gold glove experience, you have a guy who can shore up the infield on his own and take pressure off the youngsters at the keystone and shortstop. And the White Sox made history signing a Scott Boras client which basically never happens. It also helps ease Kopech back into the rotation with the expectation that there will be an innings count. Creates competition for the back end of the rotation as well. Overall great signing and should work out just fine.
ChiSoxCity
Excellent post.
I wonder if the Sox plan to bring Steve Stone back next year.
Whifff
Nah. He is a right hander…….
ChiSoxCity
lol
Bronyaur111
Stone’s tweets from last night make it clear that he doesn’t know whether or not he is coming back as the Sox analyst.
Could be
Totally agree, great signings that make sense this year and going forward. We have 6 young pitchers in Giolito, Kopech, Cease, Lopez, Stiever and Dunning that could very good and even if some dont develop there will be salary room to make new acquisitions. I hate 6 year and longer…. they rarely seem to work and are a burden staying competitive.
fox471 Dave
Well said, Axis.
ramonskee
I feel like this story would’ve had a much more positive twist had the Cubs signed Keuchel. Not whining, just facts. This is a more impressive signing than when Cole Hamels went to the Cubs but I remember the spin in that story on MLBTR being how well Hamels pitched against the NL Central. Keuchel has GREAT numbers vs the AL Central but nowhere in this diatribe do I see that mentioned. Keep the disrespect coming – even us Sox fans thrive off of it.
Indians: 7 starts, 51.2 IP, 38 K, 14 BB, 2.79 ERA
Twins: 5 starts, 30.0 IP, 33 K, 16 BB, 3.60 ERA
Tigers: 7 starts, 46.2 IP, 37 K, 15 BB, 4.05 ERA
Royals: 9 starts, 58.2 IP, 52 K, 13 BB, 2.61 ERA
(Credit to @Sean_W10 on Twitter)
bush1
That’s not true at all. There was tons of hate on the Cubs for the Hamels trade after his bad performance in Texas. White Sox fans brought up how bad he’d been nonstop. It’s so typical that White Sox fans forget how massively they trolled everything Cubs for the last 5 years and act like there the first team to have anything negatively said about them. I don’t hate the signing of Keuchel, but there’s no doubt the White Sox have to either tack on years or money of any decent free agent. That says all anyone needs to know about how the White Sox are viewed.
Aaron Sapoznik
Anyone who gave a grade anything less than a ‘B’ is a White Sox hater or drunk on advanced analytics.
I gave it an ‘A’ because I am neither. I also happen to be a 64-year old White Sox fan who has seen some pretty good pitchers on the southside of Chicago since their late ‘Go-Go’ period including many southpaws who had a similar profile to Dallas Keuchel. This included Gary Peters in the 1960’s, Tommy John a decade later all the way up to my favorite comparison of Mark Buehrle.
The Buehrle comps are especially relevant since both he and Keuchel pitched in a common era. Aside from their physical resemblance, stuff and command each have been All-Stars, led the AL in CG and IP, won multiple Gold Glove awards, earned World Series rings and perhaps most importantly have pitched successfully in home venues considered both hitter and HR friendly. Keuchel has also earned a Cy Young Award while Buehrle tossed two no-hitters that included a perfect game.
Both are considered warriors on the mound with Keuchel perhaps being a little too much so in 2016 and 2017 when he was less than forthcoming with some neck and back issues that limited his effectiveness and innings. He didn’t want to let the Astros down and took the ball when he would have been better served going on the DL/IL for a spell to fully recover. He’s been healthy ever since and his stuff as a soon to be 32-year old lower velocity/command pitcher figures to age better than others who rely more on high octane arms. Pitching to newly acquired catcher and elite pitch framer Yasmani Grandal should also benefit Keuchel who needs to work around the knees and the corners to be effective.
Bottom line: The White Sox tried their best to sign power righty Zack Wheeler as their #1 FA target but he chose geography and $118MM from the Phillies over their offer of $125MM. So the White Sox ‘settled’ on Buehrle ‘clone’ southpaw Keuchel as their veteran anchor along with lefty Gio Gonzalez to fortify the back end of their rotation for far less dollars and also come away with a more balanced rotation going forward, one that will feature the right-handed power arms of Lucas Giolito, Reynaldo Lopez and Dylan Cease on opening day along with Micheal Kopech at some point soon there after. Power lefty Carlos Rodon should be available by mid-summer as he continues to rehab from his May TJ procedure which should provide the White Sox with a pretty deep rotation as the season progresses.
Pingleja
So you’re bias, got it.
But they needed to sign a pitcher. I would give it an A as well. Non-Sox fan.
Aaron Sapoznik
Is there such a thing as an unbiased fan, short for fanatic? lol
I also claim the Cubs as my other favorite ‘die-hard’ team as a Chicagoan who wasn’t born into an allegiance. Baseball is also the only sport I am truly passionate about. I played it through high school and have been following MLB and MiLB ‘religiously’ since the early 1960’s. I also enjoy watching college baseball when available on TV and pay attention to the local high school teams and players where I reside.
Appalachian_Outlaw
I wouldn’t quite go “A” on it, because I think ideally you try to get him for closer to 15m per year. I did give it a “B” though because I think it’s silly to haggle over a few million when you can fill a need on the mound, and in the leadership department.
bush1
I don’t hate the signing as much as some, but advanced metrics have a lot more value than you are indicating. I go with a C because the White Sox has to do it to have a chance in an awful division. But there’s no doubt they had to overpay to some extent to sign any FA who isn’t bad, which can become a problem fairly easily. So the risk is there for sure.
Koamalu
i gave it a D because he is not enough to put the White Sox into contention. They are still a 3rd place team in the AL Central Spend the money when it will contribute directly to a contending team. By the time they are ready to contend he will be gone. .
Could be
Great post, Grandal framing guys who play on the edges will make our pitching staff better and teach McCann and Collins to be better. Gio Gonzales was a steal and Kuechel and great match for this staff. Sox starting pitching got much better. I prefer Kuechel 3 year contract at $55MM to 9 years of Cole at $325MM flexibility going forward. CWS are planning for next year and years after both. I love everything they have done so far this year. They dont need a DH Collins (lefty), Grandal (both) Abreu (right) and McCann (right) can do. I would have preferred Joc Pederson to Mazara but ok. Need a good relief arm and Cespedes for eat salary for a year to share rf with Mazara and some DH
Pingleja
Hot take – White Sox for 95 wins this year
Bronyaur111
Yeah. They’ll win 80, and give away 15 to other teams they play.
mpmks
It’s a good signing on the short term as it seems Sox want to try and compete in the central and looks like they can. Needed another starter and got a vet with a resume. If he vests for s 4th year and was fading in year 3 could be tough then. But a playoff run in year 1 or 2 will make it money well spent
bitteroldman
The White Sox have to overpay at this juncture for FA’s; that may change in the next few years. They needed a left handed starter as their top pitching prospects are all right handed.. Hopefully this signing along with Gonzalez means Detwiller is nothing more than long relief/mop-up duty.
bush1
“At this juncture”? Pretty sure even if they were good they’d have to overpay for FA’s. So any juncture they’ll have to overpay.
outinleftfield
White Sox panicking. Over spent on an over the hill starter.
Idioms for Idiots
@outinleftfield
says the fan of the team who couldn’t sign him
Idioms for Idiots
Good! Now get an arm or two for the pen and roll with what they have. Make necessary in-season adjustments in June/July. Yes, RF is still an ugly spot, but I’m not liking Cast or Ozuna for that spot. Otherwise they’re fine for now, until we discover who hits and misses for the young core.
Megatron2005
It depends on the team and the situation.
Keuchel is a ground ball sinker pitcher. Those are needed at Comisky where the ball takes flight. A pitcher like Madbum wouldn’t last there because he’s a fly ball pitcher.
The Sox are a team that needed a veteran starter, especially a lefty. They have a lot of young talent in that rotation that could benefit from leadership and experience Keuchel brings. Kecuhel comes in at 2. A team like NY or Atlanta he’s a 4 at best.
It’s a 3 to 4 year deal not a 5 year with 100 plus million attached. Sox have a ton of payroll flexibility the next 3 years unlike some team that’s over the tax threshold.
So I give the Sox an A.
A team like NY would get a D or F
wild05fan
He’s sooooo avg now, and WSox paid him to be a #2/3 starter. Good luck lol
Matt Tobin
You could have had a pretty similar pitcher in Kyle Gibson for 1/2 the price. If you really buy into the ability to beat peripherals consistently, Julio Teheran does 85% of what Keuchel(albeit in quite a different way) does at 1/6 the price.
The White Sox need dependability and upside. A pitcher that will definitely still be at least solid in 2 years. While all pitchers carry risk, it seems entirely plausible to me that a 34 year-old Dallas Keuchel is out of baseball in 2 years…because when 88mph becomes 86mph, you are in big trouble, especially for a sinkerballer relying on weak contact.
I’d rather have Eovaldi’s contract than this one.
BeeVeeTee
As a White Sox I must say this Keuchel deal is a solid “A”. The White Sox brought in that veteran presence in the rotation to mentor guys like Giolito, Cease, Lopez and Kopech. Keuchel’s contract is only three years with a fourth year option. It’s nothing like the contracts dished Cole or Wheeler with the years to the yearly salary. The main things that separate Keuchel from Cole and Wheeler are his 2015 Cy Young and being part of a team that won the World Series in 2017.
maximumvelocity
Keuchel isn’t making ace money. He’s getting a market-rate contract for a no. 3 rotation arm who has a solid chance of minimal regression over the course of the contract.
Sure, his arm could go dead. But the odds are, Keuchel is going to take the ball every fifth day, continue to induce ground ball contact, and have an ERA under four, and pitch around 200 innings.
He is also a solid veteran presence for a very young rotation.
It’s an overpay, but so is pretty much any free agent contract in MLB. But he should still be a viable pitcher the duration on contract, which is more than you can say for guys who rely on K rate and velocity.
Besides. If the pitchers they have develop, he shouldn’t be any more than the No 3 or 4 starter anyway, with Giolito and Kopech as the top two guys.
tigerdoc616
You also cannot ignore the fact that a lot more teams are active in this year’s market than the past two.. That has driven up prices on the available talent and has led to a much more robust market. The QO did hamper him last season no doubt, but Keuchel also is in a much different market this off season. If this year’s FA market is any indication, a lot more teams intend to contend in 2020.
its_happening
Value seemed fair given his age and the way the market for pitching has turned out. White Sox are trying to show they want to take the next step and signing DK is in-line with their 2020 goal. Staying around the numbers he has put up the last 5-6 years would make this an A signing. We can’t predict what he’ll do the next 3 years but what he’s done so far earned him that contract.
rizdakc99
Julio Teheran is -not- in “the hall of pretty good.”
bhambrave
Career ERA+ of 110, averaged about 2 WAR over the last three years. That’s pretty good, as in, league average.
beastee
White Sox have Grandal as their starting catcher. Keuchel has amazing painting abilities and just got paired with the best framer in MLB. Keuchel at a 3-3.25 era is not impossible. Great consolation to wheelers wife wearing the pants
Melchez
White sox have done great so far this offseason. Keuchel adds a solid veteran to a young staff. They added an all star catcher. They have a chance to pass the dying indians and put a scare in the twinkies.
Melchez
Of course the qualifying offer hurt Keuchel. It is the lone reason he had to take a one year deal last year. Same with moose and Grandal.
TheMick7
Melchez, are you a ChiSox fan? This is the only time where we agree and are vehemently defending Dallas’ signing. It is a really good job by the ChiSox, and he will be pitching to Grandal… I think he will do well.
Melchez
No, I hate the White Sox almost as much as I hate the Yankees. But I think the White Sox did great this off season. They added some veteran leadership and high quality players to a very young talented core. They have the potential to take the division. Personally, I think the Twins will fall back to third (it was a fluke last year)… Indians in second and White Sox steal the division.
Yankees did great getting Cole. He is what was needed to get them to the World Series. That’s really all they needed. They may have to make some late season trades to fill any holes created by injury, but the Yankees should be favored to win it all. And really, I don’t hate the Yankees all that much. They built their team from within… added needed pieces to become a great team… other than Gardner banging his head on the clubhouse roof and the media drooling over everything Yankee related… I really have nothing against the Yankees.
ChiSoxCity
So, about RF…
fox471 Dave
Pederson from the Dodgers.
ChiSoxCity
Can’t hit lefties.
TheMick7
How about Frazier from the Yankees, if you don’t mind the 50/50 defense?
maximumvelocity
They should take a flier on Puig.
Bronyaur111
This Cubs fan believes that this is a good signing, and not an overpay in this market. Gino and Keuchel will likely more than make up for the reasonably expected regression from Gioloto, and they will have an overall improved rotation. And then there is Kopech, and whatever he might provide, which very well could be better than what they got elsewhere from their 2019 starters.
All said, maybe additional five to eight extra wins in 2020 might come from the rotation – they have a legit shot at .500 in 2020.
yankeetbv1
D…3 years 45 no vesting option, should have been there final offer. I believe it’s too much for someone who will be a 4th or 5th starter.
TheMick7
But, my fellow Yankee, every pitcher was overpaid and got too many years this offseason cycle. And, the W Sox most definitely needed the pitching, plus he’s arguably one of only two pitchers left on the market that could even make a starting rotation, the other being Ryu. Good points though, bro, and I can’t wait to see Cole pitching in October!!!
Whifff
Two thoughts: #1) I like the move overall and for those that don’t, then of all the pitchers available to help lead a young staff who was better? #2) my biggest fear would be what Tim Anderson’s defense might do to limit his productivity on the mound. I like the kid but he boots too many balls.
User 3044878754
Keuchel will be good for 3-4 wins against the the Indians only,
8ManLineupNoPitcherNoDH
Anyone who voted A should be banned from posting
BeeVeeTee
Please explain why we should be banned, then give us your expertise on this signing? Afterwards, I will give you a rebuttal.
Whifff
I voted B but your comment is foolish. No QO! Keuchel needs to steal strikes at the knees and he now has the best framer in the game. The staff was all right handed and young. How does this not check all the boxes thus meriting consideration for an A grade? Know thy facts before posting.
TheMick7
With Grandal behind the plate, who is arguably the second best catcher in the game, Dallas could be back to his 2016 numbers (year may be one off). Believe it or not, the catcher can make the pitcher, if the pitcher has the stuff, which Dallas has.
pplama
The Braves have the best framers in the game. Grandal gets him no appreciable increase in strikes, and McCann or Collins hurt him.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Anyone who posts simpleton declarative statements as gaseous as this should be banned from posting.
8ManLineupNoPitcherNoDH
ITT: white sox fans trying desperately to justify a bad signing. How unexpected.
BeeVeeTee
Or you just sound like a bitter Cubs’ fan who loves trolling on Sox posts since the Cubs never became this dynasty after one and done World Series!
ChiSoxCity
How is it “bad”? Sure, he’s slightly overpaid. That’s normal for a decent pitcher in a highly competitive free agent market. I would characterize Keuchel as a necessary signing for the White Sox. They need quality veteran presence on the team, and specifically, in that young rotation. With a little success, maybe this opens the door for some elite free agents down the road. The Sox probably need to make the playoffs before that happens.
TheMick7
For those bashing this signing, view my post above. You all vastly underestimate this signing, his ability, and the fact he’s throwing to a great catcher in Grandal. This could turn out to be one of the better offseason pickups.
Dumpster Divin Theo
ITT: random words on a page trying desperately to garner attention by trolling a random team. How unexpected.
TheMick7
A lot of people, including me, wrote substantive posts with more than just subjective opining and conjecture. And many of us, 8manlineup, are objective because we are not ChiSox fans. For example, I am obviously a Yankees fan. Therefore, general bashing and assumptions are subject to ridicule, whereas statistical comparisons with substantive information are inviolable.
I appreciate good discussion and healthy debate with information, but “bad signing, ITT,” is not productive.
Ignore him ITT, he’s being immature.
thurmanmerman33
Terrible signing. He’s simply not tall/big enough to be a top tier starter. He’s also a lot older than he’s saying. People from Oklahoma are notorious for lying about their age. He’s likely closer to 35-36.
TheMick7
Wha….. is……. did you……… uh, lolololol
TheAdrianBeltre
Well, I know the Yankees avoided him because the accommodating metrics said that shaving would add two more earned runs to every start.
TheMick7
I actually lol’d at that; well played,sir, well played.
ChiSoxCity
TF? lolol
Dumpster Divin Theo
Good points, thru and through and threw.
msqboxer
The deal makes sense….Giolito, Lopez, Gonzalez and Keuchel is a good 4. Your not sure what Rodon and Kopech will be in 2020. I’d like to see them sign Nova again and bring back Rodon/Kopech slowly. Would give you some trade bait.
oriole
He’s gonna be great now that he is in a weak division
TheMick7
Please stop with saying this signing is terrible –
There is no substantive information that indicates that, whether you go by AAV (18MM), or total years (3, so he will be 34 when he goes FA), or actual metrics which puts him right alongside MadBum…
Moreover, he has the second best catcher in the game right now, which will help immensely. He’s still got great sinking action, which is reflected in the 60% ground ball rating. This contract is, by all accounts, more team friendly than MadBum, and Dallas does not rely on velo, so he won’t decline as fast. As far as overpaying, look at the market this year, and he’s a Boras client. Stop hammering the ChiSox for successfully filling a team need while the young pitchers get better.
Then you have his intangibles, like clubhouse leadership, postseason experience, and institutional knowledge that he will pass on to the younger guys with tons of potential, i,e., Kopech, Cease, and Giolito. None of this includes Rodon’s return either, which could go either way.
Again, congratulations to ChiSox for good signing. I had them in front for this guy because it makes sense.
themaven
Solid A
Keuchel can still pitch,gives the Sox a veteran with a solid work ethic that will permeate the rest of their young rotation.
Three year contract is minimal risk and the money is in line with this years market..
8ManLineupNoPitcherNoDH
Solid A. You’re a joke
buckeye46
Not a bad last big contract for someone who isn’t gonna overwhelm you with lights out stuff. If the White Sox can get him to pitch right around his career levels or slightly above I’d say this a pretty good signing
CrikesAlready
The loss of velocity… Not a good deal, glad AJ Preller didn’t overpay on this one. Maybe the loss was the extended layoff… Is he a smarter pitcher now? Meh…
C-grade. If incentives were a bigger percentage of the same money, I’d make it a B.
richt
I’ve never seen more commas in a written piece. Most of them aren’t even needed. It’s absurd. This Dylan is the latest MLBTR staffer who thinks he’s much a better writer than he actually is.
Dumpster Divin Theo
“This may not register as brilliant analysis, but, for the moment,”. You mean that?
hiflyer000
The AAV is a bit too high. Personally I would have offered 3/$45mil and maybe pushed it to $50mil if I absolutely had to. I’m not too familiar with the White Sox payroll situation but that extra 3.5mil can be huge if they are close to the luxury cap threshold.
ChiSoxCity
They’re payroll is nothing.
As for Keuchel’s AAV, I don’t know where you got your numbers, but no starting pitching with Keuchel’s resume signs for $15M per. It’s also worth considering there were at least four other teams interested in him this offseason. The $3.5M is loose change and immaterial.
BeeVeeTee
The White Sox will not have any payroll issues during Keuchel’s contract. There are too many controllable young players that the White Sox have in the next three to four years during the duration of the contracts given out to Keuchel, Grandal and Abrue. After these guys contracts are up the White Sox would start focusing on keeping Giolito, Moncada and Cease around. Anderson can be one guy the White Sox may trade since he has a team friendly deal while Yolbert Sanchez is developing in the farm system and can be up in a few years.
wordonthestreet
3/45 was not going to work. Perhaps that is what some offered and lost out. The ChiSox themselves may have offered that at one point to. Market says he is worth more than $15 m AAV
Could be
Saw a Bumgarner Gonzales comp and they were remarkably similar…. a bit of an overpay on Keuchel but Gonzales was cheap
Payne Train
Was hoping that Cards would take a serious look – but for 18.5 million, no thanks !
TheMick7
But, for three years with his potential and their low payroll, it’s worth it. They cannot afford the “no thanks” approach because they need an experienced pitcher. Cards are in a much different situation and have a pretty good rotation that showed embodiment of their potential last year.
Cachhubguy
As a Cub fan, my honest answer is, don’t know, don’t care. From recent couple of years, it could go either way. But they have the money, and he’s better than Covey, so they definitely improved.
brucenewton
Keuchel and his high ground ball rate was more suited to the Angels infield defense. Sox defense will be one of baseball’s worst again next season. Money talks.
Jimwolfjr67
Getting wrapped up in the money on this deal doesn’t make alot of sense… money to an MLB franchise is cheap.
But… ok… I’ll take the bait. They can easily afford this contract. $55mil isn’t a “franchise killer” for the Sox. The one thing they cannot afford to do is sign someone to a long term deal and have it NOT workout. That would end us. This contract will be off the books when we need it to be.
This guy is a very good pitcher. Elite? No. That’s ok because he’s not being asked (or paid) to be. He’s a durable, consistent (with one outlier) lefty starter who pitches with craft in a ball park where you need to. The added bonus of being a veteran presence to a young and up and coming staff is just gravy.
This is an A for the Sox.