6:16PM: Harrison Bader and Lane Thomas aren’t expected to be part of the trade, Passan reports. Fowler also isn’t thought to be part of this deal, though he could eventually be on the move elsewhere since the Cardinals have been discussing him in other trade negotiations.
5:37PM: The trade is shaping up as a multi-player blockbuster, as The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal (Twitter links) reports that the Cardinals and Rays are each sending three “pieces” to the other in the deal. “At least two of those pieces are draft picks,” Rosenthal notes, indicating that Competitive Balance Round selections (the only type of draft picks that can be traded) are in play. The Cards are slated to pick in Competitive Balance Round A following the first round of the draft, whereas the Rays draw after the second round in Competitive Balance Round B, so there is roughly a 30-slot gap between the two picks.
4:57PM: The Cardinals have discussed Tyler O’Neill with the Rays and other teams this offseason, Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports, though there isn’t yet any indication that O’Neill could be involved in the Liberatore trade.
3:53PM: The Cardinals have acquired left-hander Matthew Liberatore from the Rays, ESPN.com’s Jeff Passan reports (Twitter link). The return headed back to Tampa Bay is expected to include at least one player from the Cards’ Major League roster, and hints at a very notable trade given Liberatore’s status as one of the top prospects in the Rays’ system.
Picked 16th overall in the 2018, Liberatore has gotten off to a solid start in his young career, with a 2.59 ERA, 9.2 K/9, and 2.57 K/BB rate over his first 111 professional innings. That includes a 3.10 ERA over 78 1/3 IP at the A-ball level in 2019, though Liberatore missed a bit of time with a minor back injury.
It was a performance that did nothing to dim Liberatore’s stock in the eyes of evaluators, as the most recent prospect rankings from Baseball America (31st), Baseball Prospectus (37th), MLB.com (41st), and Fangraphs (63rd) all place Liberatore solidly among the sport’s top minor leaguers. MLB Pipeline ranks Liberatore fourth on its list of the best left-handed pitching prospects, with a scouting report touting his potential for as many as three 60-grade pitches on the 20-80 scouting scale. In fact, Liberatore’s fastball, changeup, and slider all earned a 55 grade from Pipeline, while his “swing-and-miss hammer” of a curveball gets a 60 grade.
Liberatore is only 20 years old, and at 6’5″ and 200 pounds, might still need to add some bulk to withstand the workload of a Major League starting pitcher. He’ll now immediately become the most promising young arm in the St. Louis farm system, now that the likes of Jack Flaherty and Dakota Hudson have graduated to the big leagues, and Alex Reyes’ injury concerns continues to cloud his future. Many of the Cardinals’ current top youngsters are position players, which could be addressed by whatever player or players are sent back to Tampa Bay.
As Passan notes, the Rays have been looking for outfield help, so it’s logical to guess that the outfielder-heavy Cards could be dealing from their logjam on the grass. It’s probably safe to assume that the Rays aren’t taking on Dexter Fowler’s big contract (unless this is part of a much larger trade), but St. Louis has a wealth of younger outfielders that could be fits for Tampa Bay — Tyler O’Neill, Harrison Bader, Lane Thomas, Randy Arozarena, Jose Martinez, or utilityman Tommy Edman could all be part of this trade. One can’t even rule out top prospect Dylan Carlson, as while the Cardinals have been resistant to offers, it would take a promising young arm like Liberatore to even get the Cards’ attention on a Carlson deal. Still, St. Louis is probably less likely to deal a player who could help their team as early as 2020 in order to land a pitcher who is still at least a couple of years away.
jdgoat
Holy crap this gonna be big
Strike Four
Absolutely wild the Rays would let Liberatore go, he’s really going to be something special and the Rays must be getting something huge back.
Robust Scouting
Hopefully Wong and Bader. Aka Oscar and Mayer.
tg0880
Why wong isn’t that’s great and they already have keirmaier
belkiolle
Wong is the best defensive 2B in baseball and an above average bat. Not that great?
RedbirdJodella
Why would you want to trade the best young, with more upside, 2nd baseman in, at least, the NL? This isn’t fantasy ball you know.
Robust Scouting
Kiermaier isn’t that good either. And he has been hurt 3 years straight. Mine is wishful thinking. Wong overated too. Besides, I’m sure O’Neill and Bader are in this deal. Pham is gone from TB. So is Garcia. TB needs OF help.
Robust Scouting
A career .720 OPS 29 year old, no power Wong. Defense at 2B is not a factor in the game today. Why do you think about half the teams play different guys there? And at $10M and $12M in 2021, he ain’t worth keeping.
ThisHeat
You’re living in fantasy land if you’d take Wong over Albies and Lux, to name a few
moody
Above avg bat? Not since AAA…
belkiolle
Defensively? Any day of the week.
belkiolle
Or you know in 2019? 109 wRC+ which is above league average of 100.
MC Tim C
Kolten? Is that you?
GregF
Funny.
GregF
Overrated? Find another sport, because your sure as heck don’t know anything about baseball.
bgrant0224
Kiermaier won a golden glove last year yes his offense may be a bit shifty but has come in clutch situations which is a big plus if you know baseball so wel
PurpleLemon
Are you still sure O’neill and Bader are in this deal?
dfinmozarks
Robust — there are a number of guys in the HOF who were not sluggers but average hitters and great fielders. If Wong continues to be the genius with the glove that he’s shown us, a speedy base runner and can continue hitting at a 285 clip he’s going to be a star for many years. One that most teams would love to have.
dfinmozarks
285 BA last year.
the.sophisticant
My mom says I’m going to be something special…as soon as I move out 🙁
Coal tender
I don’t think the Cards have anyone on its major league roster going back to the Rays that would be comparable to the Liberatore acquisition. The Cards made a major coup! The Cards are smartly negotiating with the Rockies to get Arenado and will come off smelling pretty good if they pull that one off too.
spudchukar
Please don’t let it be Tommy Edman. He is going to be a star!
Birdsfordays
Probably is Tommy Edman. Versatile plenty of years of control. That’s right up the Rays alley.
lilpartialbaldo
Hearing Yairo Munoz is in the deal
the.sophisticant
I’m on Lipitor. That’s all.
mlb.fanatic
Hopefully to the Rockies for Nolan
mr. g
It’s bt the Cards and Rays???
ksbywaino
They could flip Liberatore to Rox
Strike Four
More likely to Boston for Betts
lilpartialbaldo
Hearing that Yairo Munoz is going back to TB
Royalsfan12
Please be Tyler O’Niel
seamaholic 2
If the Cards got Lberatore for Tyler O”Neill they robbed blind one of the smartest front offices in baseball.
andrewgauldin
It’s going to be more than just O’Neill. More like O’Neill and Reyes or Thompson. I’d be surprised if Dakota Hudson or Tommy Edman were in it.
cards81
Lol no way will it be Hudson
jrad2007
They aren’t trading Hudson a major league pitcher for a prospect pitcher. They are getting outfielders.
Royalsfan12
I’m just confused why they’re trading for a prospect in the first place
echozulu88
To keep the flow of pitchers coming and winning by pitching which has long been their strategy . Or use it to trade to a team that wants pitching not outfielders
EndinStealth
I’ve seen odd comments on here before but wondering why a team would trade for a prospect is fairly odd.
falconsball1993
Bc he’s not that far away from not being a prospect anymore. With how good talent evaluators are now, they seem pretty damn certain he will be legit
Saint Chris
With top of the rotation pitching costing as much as it does (see Gerit Cole), trading for an elite pitching prospect makes a lot of sense. Especially when Tampa needs outfielders and the cards have a lot of them.
dfinmozarks
Chris — the NYY will regret that huge long term deal for Cole. He was an average pitcher for the Bucs for 6 years and a stud for a great Houston team for 2 years. I think they are already regretting the huge deal they gave Stanton who is on the DL as often as Fowler.
SuperSinker
Lol
herecomdatboi
Wow, I wonder who? Cmart?
bencole
Not enough for Liberatore. CMart has little value now, although he can rebuild.
seamaholic 2
No freakin’ way. Can’t be.
andrewgauldin
Nice, he gets to go play with Nolan Gorman, they were buddies in high school.
rusty2489
canocorn
You don’t say!
dray16
wow, he’s not going to be cheap. TB should get a haul
azelch99
Carlos Martinez to Tampa?
teufelshunde4
LMAO proly not…Tsunami makes to much money for Rays payroll to handle.
Old User Name
More like Jose.
kahnkobra
No, he’s shot
EndinStealth
I was thinking O’Neill and Cmart with the Cards eating a chunk of Cmarts contract. But that seems a little lite on the Cards side. Maybe a third lower piece.
fmj
drum roll please
ksbywaino
If it’s O’Neill…
cards04
…that would be great
MarlinsFanBase
This will be interesting.
nickmontgomery10
Please don’t be Jose Martinez
teufelshunde4
Please do be Josey, he is a nice guy, good clubhouse guy solid pro hitter but he is a DH.
downsr30
Jose Martinez will be headed to TB for sure.
some guy 2
He would make a nice platoon with Choi at first
stan lee the manly
He’s a horrid first basemen. Dude can hit, but not enough to balance that out. Outfield is the only place he’s passable enough to put up with the defense.
LodgeBoxin
I like Cjoi alot but I’m fearful for his playing time. With Nate Lowe ready to come up full time and then signing of Tsutsugo it’s not looking good for Ji Man. Add to that Brandon Lowe and Wendle both LhB have had reps at 1st too it’s a bit of crunch. Hopefully they find a way to make it work. I’m a firm believer tho that with a regular Abs and a full time gig Choi will only flourish. Just not as certain that it will be with the Rays
seamaholic 2
Rockies LOVE Rays pitching prospects. Just sayin’
mr. g
What’s up with the Rockies comments. Is there a third team involved or something?
Geoff28
The speculation from Passen earlier that the Rangers and Cardinals have engaged the Rockies about Nolan Arrenado. That’s where it all stems from
ksbywaino
Liberatore could be a potential flipping piece to acquire Arenado
robertino7
Which if true, likely means that Gorman, among others, would be part of the package to get him. Would love it if Carp was part of that; his chances for a comeback greater in a park like Coors.
Eatdust666
Just like the Pirates somehow love Yankees catchers.
echozulu88
Or the rays love ripping off the pirates for prospects
ForestCobraAL
That’s the first time I’ve seen a trade announced backwards. I guess it’s because the Rays are trading the prospect(s) for a player to improve their team and the “writers” are used to St. Louis sending the prospect(s) for the player to improve their team.
CubsFan73
A piece for the Cards to send to Colorado for Arenado
mr. g
So the Cards are going to flip this guy? I’m missing the connection with COL here, but there is obviously something bc a number of you guys are mentioning it.
hiflew
It’s wishful thinking on Cardinal fans part. Nothing more.
stl46
The Cardinals and Rockies were said to have had mutual interest in an Arenado trade. COL wants young pitching so it could happen.
cards04
Yes the cards have been reported interested in Arenado.
seamaholic 2
Yes and the Rox have a history, a long one, of acquiring Rays pitching prospects.
EndinStealth
With Arenado’s full NTC it would be interesting.
belkiolle
Arenado wants out. That’s the whole reason they’re even talking about trading him. Trading him to a winning situation would take care of the NTC without a doubt.
cards81
It was reported that Arenado would accept a trade to the Cardinals
dfinmozarks
Arenado would be a key addition to the Cards infield making them a force in the post season but the Cards have been burned taking guys for short term deals. We gave up 4 top prospects to get an injured Ozuna for 2 years. Now if Arenado is willing to renegotiate his contract to lose that opt out clause I know the Cards would move a lot of talent to the Rox. we have a lot of overhead in the team payroll and would have more if we could move Carpenter.
chicagofan1978
Dexter Fowler cards pay some salary
paindonthurt
Fowler doesn’t really help Tampa. My guess is Jose Martinez and minor leaguer/s
bagofweed
That would be insanely nuts. I highly doubt that is it, prospects would be going back to Tampa too. Lots of them. Liberatore for Fowler straight up is too much even if the Cards pay ALL of his salary.
chicagofan1978
Yeah I was kind of being sarcastic. Cards fans would cream for that though
cards81
Lol Chicago fan…we would…but maybe if this guy is flipped the Rockies would take on Fowler…but then again I heard that Fowler and the Rockies didn’t end well in their relationship
chicagofan1978
Yeah someone mentioned that awhile back, but different front office I guess.
cards81
I think the current GM was the assistant at the time but not totally sure on that
paindonthurt
I’m not joking. Do they really get a “haul” for a guy in class A 40-50 range prospect alone. I think you get one of the MLB outfielders and a couple decent prospects
Padres458
Lol
dfinmozarks
You’re right. That’s what it was. I like Martínez and wish him well as a DH. I think he will help TB with his bat.
amk3510
Theres no way the Rays just traded Liberatore for Jose Martinez or any OF on the Cards roster. They can’t be that dumb.
andrewgauldin
It’s going to be much more than that.
JamesDaltOn
Jose Martinez would be a great fit for a DH role; the guy can hit. O’Neall would be the guy I’d want, he’s possibly a .270 hitter with power, 30-40 home runs power if he develops his potential.
seamaholic 2
Yeah I’m guessing O’Neill plus, and the plus is significant. The other Cards OF prospect is Dylan Carlson and he’s the Cards #1 prospect. That would be one for one.
teufelshunde4
Carlson wont get traded for this guy. Carlson is nearly ML ready, Liberatore is a few years away.
O’Neill would be a good get for Rays. Talented guy, just coudn’t stay healthy in 2019 to go on extended run. Talent is there..
Unfortunately for some impatient Cards fans they view him as a failure after only 293 PA in big leagues. Thats just so short sighted. Not every player is who is is right out of the gate.
Strike Four
Would be funny if Gorman and Liberatore got swapped for each other
hiflew
Well apparently you can be wrong. Because there was a way.
PinstripedPride
But TB did trade him for Martinez
tombenton
They did just that
dfinmozarks
?? Why would they be dumb doing that? TB has a surplus of pitching prospects and StL has a surplus of decent young outfielders. Seems like a good trade for both teams. Getting a career 300 hitter in Martinez as a DH was great for TB.
dfinmozarks
Amk — the hole in your POV is that young unproven pitchers are a much bigger risk to crash than position players. They can lose their pitches or get hurt and be here one day and gone the next — like Alex Reyes for example. You take a guy like Edman who looked great his rookie year. He could have the opposing pitchers find some hitting weakness and see his BA reduced by 30 points and he’d still be a fine asset being a switch hitter with a 275 BA, good speed and solid on defense. I can’t see the Cards letting him go for anyone I can think of when you consider his control and salary.
thorshair
Rays are dumb for trading Liberatore
Old User Name
As good as Tampa is at developing SPs, it makes one wonder what they know about this guy.
thorshair
That is a good point
teufelshunde4
Thats can be said about every trade lol
floridapinstripes
O’Neil isn’t enough. I’m guessing Bader
cards04
Both
seamaholic 2
O’Neill’s worth more than Bader.
EndinStealth
No
Robust Scouting
Neither is worth a S””T
padresfan23
Perfection: For Edman, Jose, and prospects
padresfan23
*prediction
mlb.fanatic
Ed man is to good I wouldn’t even send him for Mookie betts
cards04
Lol are you out of your mind?
Strike Four
Irrational love and overrating of a low ceiling white guy, ya hate to see it
fstop13
Oh come on. Edman is nothing more then a utility player. Betts is top 5 in MLB
MoRivera 1999
But presently only available for one year. People seem to keep forgetting that.
EndinStealth
One year of Betts is better than 6 of Edman.
MoRivera 1999
If one year of Betts was worth what you think, on top of his $28MM salary, he would have been traded by now.
EndinStealth
Edman played way over his head last season. It would be really smart to sell high.
rjcollings1973
Matt carpenter another player plus cash to rays.
Cards in on JDon
herecomdatboi
Carp really fell apart past 2 years
teufelshunde4
Carp’s 5 WAR 2018 season disagree’s.
cards04
Lol bud. He only fell apart last year. He finished pretty high in mvp voting in 2018. So…
ksbywaino
Carp has no-trade clause, so he would have to give permission if a trade were to occur
Mrsuntan
Why would he refuse. Playoff team and no state tax
dmarcus15
Carp doesn’t want to leave STL they are stuck.
Thomas Lane
Carp has bad splits against lefties, rays wouldn’t want him
bobtillman
Carlson….or Libertore is part of a salary dump (KK)…..
cards04
No fricken way they would send Carlson in the deal. He won’t be traded
raysdaze
Carlson straight up. Or it’s Jmart ++
seamaholic 2
Carlson for LIberatore is pretty fair. Liberatore was in the mid 50’s during the mid-season Top 100 lists, but he’s gone up from there. Dude’s only 20 years old. He’s a legit elite prospect.
belkiolle
No it isn’t. Hitting prospects are almost always more valuable than pitching prospects due to injury risk. Throw in they’re only a year apart and Carlson is MLB ready at 21? It’s not close at all.
Strike Four
Valuable to whom? GM’s trade hitters for pitchers all the time at all levels.
dmarcus15
Your smoking Carlson is MLB ready and will be special the only reason he isn’t in St Louis now is because of the guy taking spots so they just sent two away and I personally don’t think the Armando trade will happen.
hiflew
C’mon people seriously. This is a 19 year old kid in low A and people are talking him getting 2-3 big leaguers/prospects in return. Plus, he’s only ranked in the mid 50s on prospect lists. Get some perspective. He is a good trade chip for a big leaguer, but he is far from a guarantee.
baseballpun
True. But guys like O’Neill and Bader haven’t shown themselves to be more than 4th OF types. I like J-Mart but right-handed DHs are a dime a dozen. Hard to believe anyone would rather have a 4th OFer than a top-60 LH pitching prospect. I’d be very surprised if it was, say, Bader for Liberatore straight-up.
hiflew
In fairness, low A pitching prospects are a dime a dozen as well. This isn’t a AAA ace or even a AA ace we are talking about. There have been tons of low A pitchers that dominated the Sally or Midwest Leagues and then got exposed in AA.
I’m not saying the guy is a guaranteed bust by any means, he COULD end up a big league ace, But he is not close to that yet and shouldn’t have that value yet.
baseballpun
I don’t disagree with that. If I’m Tampa though I’d rather hold on to my lottery ticket than have O’Neill or Bader or J-Mart straight-up.
hiflew
I agree with that, UNLESS I feel that one of those guys is a missing piece on my big league roster in 2020. The Rays are close now and might not be even be good when Liberatore makes the bigs in 2024 or whenever. If they feel that Bader is a bounceback candidate or O’Neill or J-Mart could be the power infusion they need, then it might make sense.
baseballpun
If they do, and they’re right, great. I just can’t imagine a scenario where Tyler O’Neill is the guy who’s going to get you over the hump.
racosun
Liberatore has a number of plus pitches with command. Calling him a “good trade chip” because he’s ONLY 19 years old and ONLY in most top-50 lists is nutso pollazzo.
baseballpun
Alex Reyes was THE GUY in the Cards farm for a while. A lot of stuff can happen between when a guy is 19 in Rookie ball and when he’s ready for the bigs.
fstop13
He is 31st in baseball prospectus
seamaholic 2
He’s #4 in the best system in baseball. Scouts consider him one of the best young prospects in the game. He’s no random dude on a Top 100 list. I don’t follow prospects at all and I totally have heard of him.
Strike Four
@hiflew now do that with the Swanson trade
hiflew
Nice cherry pick buddy. Would you like to look at the many trades that went the opposite route or do you just want to slink away.?
bkbk
Announced Oneil Bader and Woodford
Birdman1182
Hearing Bader, O’Neill, and Jake Woodford, but nothing confirmed
belkiolle
That was a fake tweet.
mr. g
No
PinstripedPride
Who tweeted?
mr. g
Jeff Passan tweeted it.
belkiolle
No. Another twitter user who changed his display name to Jeff Passan tweeted it. It wasn’t actually Passan’s account until he retweeted it as a joke.
mr. g
Ok, maybe
Caleb Clark
An OF (most likely between Jose Martinez, Tyler O’Neill, or Harrison Bader) and then a pitcher (Dakota Hudson, Carlos Martinez, or Alex Reyes), and determining on the guys you send, maybe you see another top 30 prospect in that deal.
teufelshunde4
Carlos isnt going anywhere nor is Hudson esp for a prospect.
Nothing against Reyes but he hasnt been healthy in 3 years and Rays would be nuts to trade their top 3 pitcher for Reyes.
Even if Reyes fully rebounds he is only good for maybe 100 IP in 20. Thats a huge IF too. Kids has the talent to be Gerrit Cole like, just not the health,
vacommish
Martinez is more of an AL guy with DH capability, so maybe he is the OF portion of the deal. Is the org over Reyes’ ongoing injuries?
seamaholic 2
Martinez is not an OF, and the Rays prize defense.
seamaholic 2
Read the article. It says the return is an outfielder. Jose Martinez is worthless and not even cheap. No chance. Bader is a lesser version of Kiermaier, no way. It’s either O’Neill or Dylan Carlson, unless this is a larger deal and LIberatore’s ending up elsewhere.
RaysFanTL
Will hopefully be Jose Martinez & Andrew Knizner (back up catcher). Jose Martinez mashes lefties
belkiolle
Knizner is a better prospect than Liberatore and Yadi’s successor. Why would they do that?
Thomas Lane
Liberatore is ranked 41 out of mlbs top 100… what is knizner ranked??? LMK
belkiolle
They’re both 50 grade prospects and Knizner has put up his numbers at a higher level.
mack423
Come again? Knizner is not a better prospect than Liberatore. Plus, Cardinals have serious concerns about Knizner’s defense. I’d wager Ivan Herrera is the more likely heir apparent.
belkiolle
Just depends on if you value potential which favors LIberatore to some degree or Proximity which favors Knizner by a ton. 20 year old who had back issues in A Ball or AAA/MLB catcher at 24? They’re pretty close. Both 50 grade overall.
andrewgauldin
I think TB would get more than that. But I don’t see ST.L trading Knizner. They don’t have immediate catching depth after Molina.
cards04
I would be fine with them trading Knizner. Herrera is coming up and looking like he is going to be a stud. Knizner is also going to be blocked for another couple years
moe 3
Matt Carpenter and dexter Fowler …
jrad2007
Ummm no… rays don’t take on payroll and trade one of the games top prospects for it.
hiflew
He is ranked in the mid 50s. He is far from a “top prospect.”
apkallmeyer
A top 50 prospect is “far” from being a top prospect to you? You really gonna nitpick that much?
hiflew
Um yes I am. Nitpicking is the whole point of evaluating stuff like this.
When I think “top prospect” I think top 10, maybe even top 5, but not a low A guy in the middle of the top 100. That’s a good prospect with potential of becoming a top prospect in a couple of years. He still has several hurdles to jump before he deserves the “top prospect” label.
The Human Toilet
Sounds reasonable. lol
Rays are known to take on big underpreforming contracts.
jrad2007
Ummm no… rays don’t take on payroll
Mrsuntan
You have no clue what you are talking about and know NOTHING about the rays if you think that. The rays front office is the smartest front office in baseball( they have to be,cheapest owner) THEY DONT LOSE TRADES ask Pittsburgh
hiflew
EVERY front office loses trades from time to time. If they didn’t, then why would anyone ever trade with them again?
jdgoat
Heard it’s Liberatore for Molina straight up.
bobtillman
Only if Bengi signs a six year extension.
herecomdatboi
Bengie maybe
Eatdust666
Or Jose
Psychguy
Friedman! Hello!
amk3510
Man just stop, you look so ridiculous. You don’t have any clue what the Cardinals gave up and do you know how hard it is to pry a top LHP prospect in all of baseball? Espically from the Rays.
kc38
Or it makes you wonder, why did the Rays choose to ditch on him? And trust me the Rays don’t lose trades, let alone on their number 4 prospect
All American Johnsonville Dogs
They do. Clearly lost the Joe Ross trea Turner for Steven Souza trade.
kc38
Before this front office was in place. Since this front office has had control they really haven’t made a mistake
Javia
Ross and Turner came from the Padres.
Psychguy
You are an idiot. Pointing out Friedman’s lack of activity of the past few years to address a glaring need, some would argue cost them the WS. Friedman has assets, but refuses to use them. For example, how many freakin’ outfielders can they accommodate. Use your brain. Jeez!
amk3510
LMMAOOO Liberatore won’t be in the bigs until 2022. The fact you casually think Liberatore is some relief pitcher that was on the trading block shows how much of an idiot you are. They have 4 good outfielders as it stands. Wow thats such a logjam. One extra player my lord call a plummer.
rocko
j Mart , Reyes AND MUNOZ
mack423
I bet Munoz really seals the deal
c1234
Goodbye O’Neill
All American Johnsonville Dogs
As of right now all we know is cards fans are hoping they gave up little to no value in players like Martinez and damaged goods in pitchers with injury history.
Martinez most likely involved but could be Goreman heading back to TB especially if the cards send liberatore to Colorado and wind up trading for Arrenado.
kc38
Id be scared if I was a cardinal fan lol. As a rays fan, I love this
LodgeBoxin
I’m not saying I love til I see the return. McClanahan and Libertore were 2 great pickups 18s draft. This form of announcement has me scratching my head. I am on the edge of my seat tho.
Mrsuntan
Catcher and right handed outfielder hitter I hope
dynamite drop in monty
Could be Jose Oquendo
chicagofan1978
Is it me or is this taking a long time? Someone got bad info or something
dynamite drop in monty
Nah sometimes I’m in the stall for over an hour
c1234
Idk could be a small piece of maybe a 3 team trade? All we can do I speculate I guess.
baseballpun
I’m starting to think it HAS to be part of a 3-team trade, given how long this is taking.
chicagofan1978
You may be right. Themed is probably crapping his diaper right now in anticipation
The Human Toilet
I got a feeling this a deal that will get Arenado to the Cardinals.
bobtillman
There’s always been a question on how Libertore, who was ranked 4-7 on everybody’s board, fell to the Rays at 16; the pundits are generally not that far off. It couldn’t have been financial; he signed fairly quickly for slot.
Might be more going on here than we know.
Oddball Hererra
Signability is inherently speculative. It’s quite possible that people thought he’d hold out and he didn’t
ScottCFA
Two of the smartest front offices in baseball. This should be interesting to watch.
Ognir200
Liberatore was projected to be a top 5 pick in the 2018 draft. He lasted to #16 because of signability issues. He had committed to the Arizona Wildcats. The Rays are going to want a big return that can help now.
bobtillman
Nope. Libertore signed, at #16, 3.5M. #17 pick Adams signed for 4.1M, and #18 pick Singer (a COLLEGE player) signed for 4.3M.
Whatever the reason, it wasn’t signability.
kwolf68
Just because Liberatore signed for less than the next guy means nothing. Maybe he wanted to goto college??? I read signability was an issue as well.
Ognir200
The mlb.com 2018 mock draft projected Liberatore to go #3 to the Phillies.. Philadelphia selected third baseman Alec Bohm.
Eatdust666
Which is exactly why Blake Rutherford ended up being the 18th overall pick in the 2016 draft, yet the Yankees were still able to sign him.
Oddball Hererra
It can’t stop at this, because STL isn’t punting on 2020, so there’s no way they’re trading a ML player for an A ball guy unless they are planning on flipping him. The guys that STL could trade without overly hurting their ML roster (O’Neill, Bader, J Martinez) probably don’t bring back Liberatore.
sss847
this trade is going to look really awkward on paper
Cardsfanatik redux
It won’t be Carlson.
LodgeBoxin
Show me what you got!!
HalosHeavenJJ
Wow. Can’t wait to see who is going back or if there are other players or teams ultimately involved.
beyou02215
Does O’Neil have much value though? I’m not a scout, but that K rate is brutal.
Robertowannabe
In the immortal words of Judge Elihu Smails: ” Weeeell? We’re waiting!”
cards04
Wondering if this means Cards are looking to bring Ozuna back
DarkSide830
wow what the heck
PinstripedPride
As long as Jose Martinez isn’t headed to Tampa I’ll be ok. That dude can rake and we don’t need to be facing him.
LOL if it’s O’Neill
Mrsuntan
Rays don’t lose trades
stan lee the manly
Trea Turner
Koamalu
Turner was a Padre that went to the Nationals. .
All American Johnsonville Dogs
No. Turner n Ross were sent to the Ray’s Ray’s turned around and sent them to Washington for Souza. Padres didn’t get anything from the Nationals. They got Myers and Castillo from the Ray’s.
dynamite drop in monty
Charlie don’t surf
Briffle2
Jose Martinez’s OPS+ each season:
2016 1.000
2017 .897
2018 .821
2019 .751
2020 .680???
lowtalker1
Still don’t know why the padres didn’t take him instead they grabbed weathers
LodgeBoxin
MLBTR knows i keep refreshing. Trolling with that update lol
Robertowannabe
LOL! We are all refreshing
As Vizzini once said “I’m waiting!!”
Phiilies2020
Probably O’Neill, maybe Martinez
LodgeBoxin
I would be happy with both. A win now move for the Rays if it goes that way. Two RH power bats. Creates some logjams with some decent bats but eh why not I suppose.
The Human Toilet
It has to be a very complex blockbuster deal at this point.
Phiilies2020
I hope it is, I’ve been searching for relevant hot stove news all day lol
seamaholic 2
Arenado has a no-trade clause. Takes a while to get the signature.
kwolf68
Wonder if this is part of an Arenado deal? Arenado to St.Louis, Liberatore to Col and a bunch of other stuff going down?
Robertowannabe
Wonder if they are still trying to inform one of the players involved and that is the reason. Wonder how many Cardinal players caught wind of this and won’t answer their phones?
cards04
Hopefully a three team trade with COL?
megaj
This was a great move by the Cards. I also think Shane Baz has some serious potential, either one would have been a good pickup. Maybe Epstein is learning something as the Rays are weak at 3B and C, and are also fond of players that are multi-positional. Theo- You there buddy?
paindonthurt
How is it a great move when you know nothing other than they acquired a Class A pitcher. These comments kill me. You can’t say anything until you know what the trade is.
imindless
My guess is lane Thomas or dylan carlson + for the magnitude of this pitching prospect like liberatore.
seamaholic 2
Those are two VERY different prospects.
CJ81
What? If cardinals trade carlson rays would have to add something.
Caleb Clark
3-team trade with Colorado?
megaj
Wainwright a year older and really nobody set at the 4th and 5th spot. Liberatore fits nicely in that rotation for sure. Either way, Cards are going to be better. UNLESS, they ship C. Martinez and Hudson to Colorado…that would make sense?
kwolf68
Good as Liberatore is he is not pitching in the Majors next year.
megaj
Yeah, I got ahead of myself there hahaha
iH8PaperStraws
Liberators is two years at minimum away. If it was a rotation piece for this year potentially, it would have been Baz or Honeywell and cost more.
belkiolle
Liberatore just got done throwing 78 innings in A Ball. He’s not going to be starting in the majors anytime soon.
Rotation is pretty set this year with Flaherty, Mikolas, Waino, Hudson 1-4 and lots of pieces to fill the last spot or bump Waino or Hudson. CMart, Kim, etc.
cards04
Please. That would make my whole year
cards04
Why does everything send twice?
Jacmac609
GOLDSCHMIDT
kaido24
lol no way
Jacmac609
A rays fan can dream while it’s a mystery, can’t he? Lol 😀
LodgeBoxin
We missed striking Goldy last year. I doubt this is what they is especially after Paul signed his extension. But, yes, yes we can dream.
stan lee the manly
Six piece (4 player) trade. This will be a big one
dynamite drop in monty
20 piece nuggets
stan lee the manly
Just don’t forget the sauce or everyone’s gonna be pissed
dynamite drop in monty
I got four cargo pockets full of hot mustard
AllRiseForTheJudge
Still fries and a toy short of a Happy Meal, though
Koamalu
Cardinals just acquired the pitching prospect they needed to acquire Arenado.
Liberatore, Gorman, Knizer, and Fernandez for Arenado. 2 top 100 prospects that are a couple years away from contributing in the majors and 2 good prospects that are close to MLB ready.
stan lee the manly
That’s WAY too much if there isn’t any salary offsetting. Arenado has the opt out, which is definitely going to negatively affect his value.
AllRiseForTheJudge
The problem with Colorado acquiring guys who are still a couple years away is that in a couple years, Story, Gray and Marquez will all be getting expensive, with Story and Gray currently set to hit free agency after 2021 and Marquez not likely to be a Rockie by the time he’s owed $16MM annually. in 2024.
Colorado needs guys who can push for a playoff spot by opening day 2021 at the latest, not guys who will be ready when their core is likely leaving for greener pastures.
belkiolle
Too much for a guy with an opt out after two years or a league market contract afterwards.
AllRiseForTheJudge
It isn’t too much if Nolan agrees to restructure his contract to remove or delay the opt-out, which he may well do since he’d already have to approve his trade, which in and of itself would indicate that he’s happy with his destination.
Obviously, that would have to be agreed to in advance of any trade. I could see him deferring the op-out by a year, maybe two, to facilitate a move to a contender.
belkiolle
Sure, but as it stands now that package is way too much without the Rox eating a lot of money or taking bad money like Fowler back in exchange.
lowtalker1
Quiet burns
CJ81
Liberatore, gorman, fernandez would be plenty, no need for knizer too.
Stevil
Knizer or Carlson should be headlining this deal. If it’s Knizer, the Rays would need more.
CJ81
If carlson rays need a lot more.
LodgeBoxin
Oh no. I hope KK is still a Ray after this is all said and done.
AllRiseForTheJudge
This is gonna be a crazy Thursday night while the pieces slowly leak out
dynamite drop in monty
That’s what I said on the toilet earlier!
desertbull
The fact that the Cards get competitive balance picks is a freaking joke.
iH8PaperStraws
Bottom half of media markets. bless the rules.
stan lee the manly
Bottom half of market size. They just happen to be really good at maximizing their market.
teufelshunde4
Really Great… There fixed that for you.. lol
Dotnet22
So a small market team draws fans so they shouldn’t get a pick? You’re a joke.
iH8PaperStraws
They also are recipients of the revenue sharing too.
Dotnet22
Good.
desertbull
Small market. Hahahaha.
Dotnet22
What’s the population of the STL area. I’ll wait while you look it up.
iH8PaperStraws
Last I checked it was around 2.7MM, which ranked about 20th in the US, which would be bottom 1/3 of MLB because of two team cities.
herecomdatboi
The cardinals market goes into Illinois, Tennessee, Kentucky, Arkansas, Indiana
Covers One of the largest areas imo
Dotnet22
That’s not how it’s measured.
stan lee the manly
Thats not what their market is at all. Just because they have people that like their baseball team there does not mean that that is their economic market. None of these people can regularly go to games or watch the local Cardinals broadcasts. Because they are not in the Cardinals market. FANBASE and MARKET are two very different things. They have less of an opportunity to profit off of their community than the majority of baseball teams because their community is relatively small. This is a pretty simple concept.
Strike Four
Isn’t the point of the pick to help teams draw fans?
So…mission accomplished in STL?
Keeping these picks is clearly why they’ve been consistently good over recent decades. Isn’t it unfair on the rest of the league? I’m all for supporting the teams with bad records, but watching the Cardinals do what they’ve done, they really have broken the reason why they got these picks and sharing to begin with: they are a small market team with a $165M budget, which compared with Tampa Bay’s $67M, is not small.
It shouldn’t be market, it should be record, plain and simple. When you support the teams with the bad records, then they will start being good very quickly, and then all teams will be like the Cardinals, which should be the point, right? Basically have all 30 teams be contenders all the time, no more rebuilding, just “bad years” where only let player selection, injury and form determine who wins. Get rid “not trying to win, trying to lose to get a better draft pick”, it devalues the game.
fstop13
regular draft picks are based on record these are competitive balance picks and are the only type of draft picks that can be traded
desertbull
It has to be Joss Martinez going back to TB.
Great bat. Horrible in the field.
dynamite drop in monty
Could be Tom Pagnozzi
Strike Four
He’s barely got any value, if Martinez is in, then Gorman or Carlson is in the deal.
Begamin
the report is CMart, Arozarena, and a comp A pick going to TB.
Strike Four
Yikes, terrible trade by TB. Great move by STL.
teufelshunde4
Ah no
Deleted Userrr
Interesting. The Rays generally don’t trade prospects of this caliber.
jkinser20
WHERE ARE THE NAMES
dynamite drop in monty
WHERE ARE THE TURTLES????!!!????
MoRivera 1999
Gone Daddy Gone
dd3
Both Tampa and STL metro areas are roughly 2.8 million. Tampa/St. Pete is the #11 media market. St. Louis is #21.
herecomdatboi
Marp on the move
kaido24
jose martinez on the move.
kaido24
Jose Martinez is in the package.
calrippen
My guess is Jose Martinez and Junior Fernandez
Julio Franco's Birth Certificate
How about:
To TAM: Jose Martinez, Tyler O’ Neill and Tommy Edman
To STL: Nolan Arenado and Competitive Round B Pick
To COL: Matt Carpenter, Competitive Round A Pick, and Matt Liberatore
Dorothy_Mantooth
It’s going to take a lot more than Liberatore & a late first round pick to get Arenado. Maybe Carlson, Liberatore, draft pick, a top 20 pitching prospect (#20 in the StL system) and Carpenter would peak the Rockies interest, but a late first rounder and a 20 year old pitching prospect is not nearly enough. Carpenter is only a salary dump and has zero value to the Rockies, so that’s why I left him out.
kwolf68
Martinez, Arozarena, pick
for
Liberatore, some low level catching prospect (not Hernandez), and a pick.
Julio Franco's Birth Certificate
Did the Rays hire Neal Huntington as a Special Advisor to make that deal?
kwolf68
I don’t know. Arozarena is a good prospect, but well behind several others in the system. Martinez is a pure DH, both players expendable by St.Louis.
The read I get is St.Louis just wants to clear space for younger, better all around players and have traded expendable pieces for a top pitching prospect.
Rays get OF depth a very solid DH and probably think they have plenty of minors pitching talent to make this move (and they may).
This is a “win now’ move by TB. For St.Louis it’s just trading guys who wouldn’t play much anyway for a futures.
Javia
The Rays don’t trade top pitching prospects for expendable pieces. They also do not take on added salary. They will be getting a top prospect out of this and maybe 1 or 2 mlb players at league minimum or other lower-level prospects.
live42day
It is Jose Martinez and Randy Arozarena and a draft pick
live42day
This isn’t a guess. It’s a fact
MoRivera 1999
If you’re wrong would you rather eat crow or your hat?
stan lee the manly
Looks like we won’t ever get to find out!
PinstripedPride
He’s not wrong
Dorothy_Mantooth
If that is the case, this is a nice deal for St Louis.
mike-5
That IS the case. The trade has been finalized and the Cards officially announced it about an hour ago or so.
jorge78
Why no links on several of the players listed?
jorge78
Never mind!
Dorothy_Mantooth
Cardinals beware…anytime TB trades young, promising prospects, they end up winning the trade 90% of the time. Remember when everyone thought TB was crazy for trading Wil Meyers? IF Tampa was able to finagle Carlson in this deal, this will be a fantastic trade for the Rays. Also sounds like the are getting a (late) first round draft pick as well in exchange for their late 2nd rounder. You have to love the aggressiveness of the Tampa Bay executives. Really hope Chaim Bloom beings this culture to Boston; they just need to accumulate the assets first.
wordonthestreet
Rays did not get Carlson. Cardinals come out of this trade on top