This afternoon, the MLB Players Association presented the league with its counter-proposal about how to launch the 2020 season, ESPN’s Jeff Passan reports (Twitter links). Details of the proposal included a 114-game regular season that would end on Halloween, an opt-out clause that would allow any player to sit out the season, and a potential deferral of 2020 salaries if the postseason was canceled. Evan Drellich of The Athletic (Twitter links) has further updates, specifying that the 114-game season would begin on June 30, and that an expanded playoff structure would be in place for both the 2020 and 2021 seasons.
Players would also receive a $100MM salary advance during whatever type of training camp takes place this summer, as some ramp-up time is inevitably required in advance of the season getting underway. This $100MM payment is similar to the $170MM advance payment that players received this past March as an advance on their 2020 salaries. As per the March agreement, that $170MM in salary would be all the players would receive in the event of a canceled 2020 season. Since both payments are an advance, the total $270MM would be factored into salaries received during any 2020 regular-season games.
A separate total of $100MM in salary would deferred in the event of a canceled 2020 postseason, with that $100MM coming from player contracts worth more than $10MM (before being prorated). This money would be deferred into two payments, scheduled for November 2021 and November 2022. Players making less than $10MM wouldn’t defer any salary, so in a sense, this proposal from the players’ union has some very minor resemblance to the sliding-scale pay plan floated in the owners’ first proposal, in that the game’s higher-paid players would be taking more of a financial hit than lower-paid players. Of course, that is where the faint similarity ends, as the owners’ plan proposed that every player would take some type of a pay cut, whereas the players are still set on receiving all of their prorated salaries, if not immediately this year.
Players who are considered “high risk” candidates for COVID-19 would be able to opt out of playing this season while still receiving their entire prorated salaries. Joel Sherman of the New York Post adds that the “high risk” designation also extends to players who have spouses, children, or other live-in family members with pre-existing health conditions. For players who don’t face a “high-risk” situation but still don’t want to play in 2020, they will receive service time but no salary.
The early response to this proposal is apparently not positive from Major League Baseball’s point of view, as MLB Network’s Jon Heyman hears from an ownership source that the MLBPA’s offer is a “non-starter.” The players similarly rejected the owners’ first proposal just as rapidly, so it isn’t a surprise that the league isn’t immediately jumping on board with the first counter-offer.
The two offers differ greatly enough that the only real common point of agreement is an expanded postseason. The owners have been particularly keen on ensuring (and getting to) the playoffs as quickly as possible, due to the threat of a second COVID-19 wave and given how much of baseball’s national TV revenue is attached to postseason action. The players’ offer to defer some money in the event of a canceled 2020 postseason is at least a nod to that possibility, though the league will surely balk at just pushing the financial burden into 2021 and 2022.
The players’ idea of extending the regular season through October also won’t be a welcome idea, as the playoffs wouldn’t be concluded until the end of November. This also runs the risk of more of the baseball regular season and postseason conflicting with NFL games, which won’t bode well for Major League Baseball in terms of maximizing television ratings. (Of course, this assumes the NFL season will also proceed as currently scheduled.) One interesting wrinkle is that the players’ proposal includes a “willingness to consider” — as per Sherman — participation in such “revenue generator” events like the All-Star Game or a Home Run Derby, which could take place during the offseason or even the postseason.
As expected, the MLBPA is sticking to its stance that players should receive the prorated portions of their 2020 salaries over any sort of regular season. With a 114-game plan on the table, that will mean more salary paid (roughly 70% of the original salaries) for more regular season games, which isn’t likely to sit well with owners who are already claiming to be facing $4 billion in losses if an 82-game season was played without fans in the stands.
The only nod towards salary reduction of any sort would be if a player opted to sit out for non-health related reasons, as that player then wouldn’t be paid. While it stands to reason that most players want to get back on the field, it can’t be ruled out that a sizeable number of players might prefer to just remain at home. Even if they or their loved ones aren’t facing any elevated risk of the coronavirus, it certainly doesn’t mean that no risk exists, especially since the simple act of gathering in any sort of larger group increases the chance of contracting the disease, no matter how many proposed health and safety protocols might be in place.
No deal!!! Expand the playoffs… stop ruining the game. The regular season becomes pointless… like hockey
Nick hates money.
Basketball and hockey playoffs are the worst. Half the leagues makes the postseason. Nobody cares about the 16th best team in the league.
Shafe, nothing is more exciting than NHL PLAYOFFS, unless of course that riveting 2019 NLCS.
I’m confused.. You’re saying expand the playoffs.. this article says they are proposing an expanded playoff.. what am I not getting here?
thor would look better in red
he is saying that if you expand the playoffs it waters down the quality of them.
If you read his last sentence, it’s clear that he does not want an expanded playoff. I agree with him; I don’t want baseball to become like basketball and hockey. More money, however, can be made from an expanded playoff, so I’m not gonna get too excited.
expanded playoffs bring more dollars to the owners. 4 wild card teams in each league and 3 games each for the first and second round and 7 game each afterward
it brings fans joy.
Will everyone at least get a participation trophy!
2006 Oilers and 2012 Kings are laughing at you. If you took out the top 3 seeds you deserve to be there.
With that thought process that means the Orioles Marlins and tigers should be playoff teams if they finish the season beating the top teams in the last couple series?
You’re incorrectly comparing last place teams in baseball to low seeded playoff teams in hockey.
The worst teams in baseball are not the same as the lowest seeds.
I really can’t see how any of this is a good idea.
Extending the season cuts into offseason recovery and training programs. It makes competition with other sports for viewership. It expands the revenue gap between game receipts and costs. I’d expect it requires even larger rosters and thus higher payrolls.
I’m not sure how much extra revenue an expanded postseason brings anyways, the idea hasn’t been fleshed out. If you made more wildcards then you’re only adding a handful of games, where a large portion of revenue only benefits the two teams playing the particular game.
The worst of all is the opt out at full salary provision. I’d say let the player opt out and forfeit their service time credit. No salary from the team, but MLBPA can pay the players prorated salary as a union benefit.
The employer/owner had no opportunity to buy insurance to cover those wages, needs to pay an additional replacement player, isn’t creating the circumstances leading to non-performance. This should be treated like a non-baseball related offseason injury where no liability for team to play wages. Let the guy have time off, but no pay or perks.
But this isn’t madbum on a dirtbike or Grienke playing hoops. The players also have no control over their circumstances.
So? Why is that the owners fault? He’s not trying to get out of their contract in this scenario- they are. Why should they have their cake on the table, on their plate, and on the stove for next season all at the same time?
I don’t understand “fans” that side with the owners.
Let me ask you this. When you go to a baseball game, who do you go to see? Do you go to see the Wilpons, Steinbrenners, Castellinis, etc. or do you go to see the Mike Trouts, Aaron Judges, Cody Bellingers, Christian Yelichs, etc?
Smokin Joe Charboneau
Of course players have control over their circumstances. We all do; it’s called free will.
i don’t under you for siding with millionaire ball players with very little risk of nonpayment when owners risk everything on players nonperformances and on the field retired players with bloated contracts … THEY ARE NOT LIKE WORKING PEOPLE .. THEY PLAY KIDS GAME and complaint
Me either. Bizarre.
I follow my team regardless of what players they employ. I follow players while they are with my team.
Do you follow individual players or the reds?
I follow my team, and I follow players when on my team. Once a player leaves my team they’re last week’s news and depending on how/why they left I either wish them well (but don’t really follow) or actively root against them.
Now, if the two sides really wanted to be reasonable, they could do the following:
1) come up with a STRICT, binding list of medical conditions FOR PLAYERS ONLY to be placed on a restricted list. No extended family etc having the conditon qualifies. Any player has to opt onto the list before the season unless diagnosed for the first time during the season. Pick a percentage maybe 10% or 20% of salary they get. Once on the list, it’s irreversible for the 2020 season and post season.
2) salaries to be paid on a moving scale. Games without fans are paid xyz rate. I’d think somewhere around 75% or prorated contract value isn’t bad as a base for every game. Then IF fans return, xyz percentage of gate revenue is turned over to MLBPA for them to disburse as seen fit. (Let the players fight among themselves) If a postseason is played, then same story, just lesser percentage.
3) players can opt-out of 2020 for non qualifying reasons, but, forfeit service time and salary. Once opted out, it’s all season long.
4) Make the season 81 games, put 28 men on roster, trade deadline after game 32.
Yesgeo…right…no go have some milk and cookies and let grownups talk.
I’m a reds fan. My comment was about people siding with management. I’ll never understand that.
@redsfan48 Who are you to condescend “fans” who root for owners? Must be hard up there on your judgemental soapbox with the world on your shoulders.
Wondering why should I root for a billionaire owner versus a multi-millionaire player who makes more sitting on a bench during one game than I do in a year is the stupidest statement I’ve ever seen. I don’t root for either of them. I just want them to have some common sense and figure it out because it hurts both their pocketbooks and sets back their mutual business when people won’t buy their product due to greed.
Well here’s one. I don’t side with the owners on each issue nor with the players on each issue. Instead, I examine the issue and weigh the positions. To side with the owners as a reflex or the players as a reflex, is to be a clown.
On this issue, the players have taken their agents’ lead and their positions are stupid. It was stupid to pretend that their was no pandemic on the draft issue and to insist on business as usual.
And it’s stupid to pretend that they are going to get the same salaries for games with no gate as they would for games with fans is stupid. Only idiots would see it as otherwise. Or clowns who take the players’ side reflexively.
This proposal seems designed by Boras. Give us the same salary for gateless games as for games with fans, defer some money but pay it anyway with interest, and we’ll throw in some free games at the end that you’ll lose money on and we’ll pretend there’s not going to be a second phase of the pandemic in the Fall And players can opt out.
Shut it down. Shut it down for next year too. Then see how many teams come back. And when the players are negotiating the new CBA they can reflect on the positions they took in the middle of a pandemic that’s killed hundreds of thousands.
I don’t understand any of this I just want to see some baseball
I go to see the players on the field wearing my colors. The problem is, players like Yelich can be shipped out in an instant. Then what? You cheer for the “next man up”. You can’t trade owners. We may not be happy about their transaction choices, but theoretically, the owners have their best interests in the franchise. Most fans want to see their franchise succeed in some way forever, not only for the length of time a certain player resides there. I generally hope for payouts that will make my team better for the long haul. Would I wish for my team to spend big and go get the best guys when there are big holes to fill and pay everyone top dollar for what they’re valued? Sure, but that we have no control over. As much as I like the athletes I follow, I will never cheer for another team. What do you like more–you team, or the humans that play on it? I admit I am somewhat conflicted on this, so I deffinitely understand why people choose both sides.
Your last paragraph is exquisite. My sentiments exactly.
LOL… It’s not like this is slowpitch beer-league softball. These are the best-of-the-best that make MLB owners a very rich ROI. Just look at the valuations of MLB teams over time.
To be an MLB owner takes billions. I get it, the owners are getting temporarily hit in the pocketbook w/COVID, but they’re not trying to figure out how to make ends meet.
If by the grace of God I had the talent to make an MLB roster, I’d be itching to play, but I would ensure that I’m maximizing my income-making ability. After all, that’s the American Way, is it not? There are always other talented players just dying to take my spot. So get my $ while I can, because chances are I will never make anywhere CLOSE to what I made as an elite pro athlete.
The owners will be fine. I’m trying to think of an example in modern sports where an owner went bankrupt owning a team?.
If a players wife or child develops an Auto-Immune disease the player certainly cannot control that circumstance. Or should they use their free will and get divorced or become a dead beat dad? Circumstance beyond one’s control happens. Its called life.
Because those are the smart fans that understand how real world economics work. The owners are the job creators with ALL of the responsibility and accountability of running a MLB team, taking care of a stadium and all of its employees, and the headache of making sure it all works right every year. The players just have to play a game. You have to be really naive to be on the side of the player who refuses to take a pay cut during economic downturns. MLB is ALL about the fans, not the players. You will find out how dull it is to watch a game with crickets chirping in the background instead of a packed stadium.
I go to see the game.
Redmatt, Its very oblivious you’ve never owned a business. If you did you would understand the owners side vs the millionaire players. Enough said.
Ummm….I side on the side of what’s morally right and just. Why would I use my favoritism to decide my opinions on a topic that has to do with someone else’s rights?
The Mandatory DH is enough to forget this season. Players can’t spit? Really? Fougettabouit.
dynamite drop in monty
Ah yes, spitting. That’s the breaking point. Can’t watch sports unless there is spit. I have standards!
I wish my mice had to sign that agreement.
I cannot tell anymore what’s serious and what’s sarcasm…
My personal vote is not to play until August-September, and play ONLY playoffs: round robin style, with single-round elimination. Astros and Nationals get a first round bye. Each round is 5 games, until the final two rounds at 7 games. This is a unique year, and it would be a really fun, really unique approach to salvaging the season while keeping everyone safe.
The expanded playoffs might make a difference. I hope it does.
Expanded or delayed playoffs are too risky given the likelihood of a COVID resurgence in the autumn.
There is nothing to fear except fear itself.” ( FDR). Staying inside like a cornered rat, messes up your mental as well as financial state.” Better to live your life.
Ironic to use a quote about not worrying about the pandemic from a man that lost the use of his legs during the polio epidemic.
what is the obsession of people im comparing this situation to older crises like WWII or the Depression? this is a whole different animal. FDR would probably add a qualifying “as long as you stay” home if he were here saying that quote now.
exactly … 50 million people died in Spanish flu
Please mate, go outside and live your life. Don’t wear a mask. Don’t wash your hands. Don’t wear gloves. Just stay away from everyone else and we pray you don’t have either kids or elders around you.
You’re right. Best not to be afraid. But also best not to go out as normal and spread a highly infectious, highly deadly disease before there is a vaccine.
I have not given in to fear, but I have also no plans to be reckless and start spreading it around.
Gary Bettman is not a fan of you at the moment
Captain – “…given the likelihood of a COVID resurgence…” Likelihood? Do you have a link to a credible source for that statement?
CNN is a joke.
I still have the CNN alert that Kobe and his entire family and Rick Fox died in a helicopter crash. They tried so hard to be first that they botched it but since people have about a five minute memory no one cares.
He said credible.
Bogus. Since when has not having a credible source ever stopped you?
Ask any doctor – every last medical expert I’ve heard has said a second wave is virtually inevitable. Given the way the US hasn’t taken it seriously (sorry, your nation really hasn’t given how some areas never fully closed and the pathetic $1200 per person benefit)
There absolutely will be a second wave. It is called ‘cold and flu season’. During this, less than 1% of those that might come down with not-novel-anymore coronavirus might actually have symptoms.
And another 100,000+ Americans will die. But hey, most of them are old so who cares right? Meanwhile other nations, like New Zealand have 0 cases at the moment because they acted and the citizens actually followed the science. But sadly I know nothing will convince those who are determined to get their hair cut by underpaid, unprotected people who will suffer the most due to it.
Come on. Youre acting as if New Zealand has the diversity, travel, or economic weight of the US.
It’s easy to throw stones at us from afar. I’ll tell you what- whenever you are, let your country become the global leader in tech, medicine, finance, and have the most powerful military to keep the peace, then tell us how we can be more like you.
We have a lot of problems in America, but I promise you that you your reductionist perspective is as misinformed as that stereotype.
wild bill tetley
Black69 for the win. More people travel and were traveling to the US prior to the pandemic and probably had Covid-19, knowingly or unknowingly.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
jnorthey, you really thiink the pandemic hasn’t been taken seriously? You’re nuts. I guess if you don’t live here you wouldn’t understand,. People are completely freaked out and many refuse to go outside. The $1200 is only the tip; UI benefits are paying many people more money than they make when they work. Maybe just shut up about things you don’t know about?
Regarding a second wave, this thing isn’t going away. No one knows to what degree the virus will be with us in the future, but it will be with us.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
jnorthey, go away. If you’re not in the US how can you know what is going on here?
I bet you wouldn’t send that pathetic $1200 back in protest
Smokin Joe – There’s TV, radio, newspapers and this thing called the Internet. Makes knowing what’s going on in the world pretty easy, actually.
What does the $1200 benefit have to do with whether or not Uncle SAM has taken COVID19 seriously?
The flatten the curve and lockdowns are the things that quarantee the infamous second wave. The virus remain s around with limited herd immunity. It will be interesting to see if Sweden gets a second wave. Absent vaccinations restricting travel now from the Southern hemisphere is the most effective step to limit increased prevalence this fall.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
Boston, those networks don’t cover what is going on where I live. The OP was from New Zealand, and he (or she) seemed to think Americans were not taking this thing seriously. Where I am, though our infection rate is tiny and the death rate very tiny (thankfully), people are taking this very seriously. Playgrounds closed, schools closed, people inside even on nice days (which are rare here in the Midwest). I have no idea what someone from outside the US may think about our response, but from what I see, people are freaked out. Even where there is hardly any evidence of the virus.
CNN and other news outlets (FOX News also covered this) are sourcing the CDC. You can blow it off at your own peril.
That said, I desperately hope that MLB figures this out, with an abundance of caution. I hope that the risk never materializes. But if it does and players start getting the virus, they’ll have to shut things down pronto. Same would go with the NFL, NBA, NHL etc.
wild bill tetley
The same caution being used by the protesters and rioters? If there isn’t a massive spike over the next few days we can toss this caution out the window and get back on the ballfield. The media isn’t talking much about social distancing or the urgency of that or wearing a mask the way they did a week ago. Showing they do not fear Covid-19 as much as they wanted us to believe.
My lord the Trumpers are out in force aren’t they? Lets put this simply – this disease is DEADLY it has killed far more in the US than anywhere else on Earth. Your nation had plans for it but your current moron decided to toss that in the trash a year or so ago and now everyone is paying for it. The $1200 is a joke because other nations took this a lot more seriously – here in Canada it is $2000 and multiple payments of that. Down there he gave f’ing tax cuts out instead as the bulk and billions in handouts to massive businesses and killed the oversights that should’ve been on them. Trickle down is basically the rich leaking on the poor which is why the US has more billionaires and more poverty than any first world nation should have. I pay attention because I’m Canadian and as the saying goes if the US sneezes we get a cold. So as you ignore reality down there and see the disease go nuts over the summer and the fall and the winter we will pay some of the price since our economy is tightly tied to yours and we have a massive undefended border that now needs to be locked down long term. The protesters were wearing protective masks and were trying to do the right thing, but then the agitators came in – you know, those very fine people your president is counting on to keep him in the White House. Tons of proof of it, but instead he is blaming ‘left wing radicals’ because that suits him.
Rant over – I know it won’t change one mind and will probably get 1001 more comments, but sometimes you gotta let it out. Thank god I’m Canadian and not American.
I’m not defending anything that was or wasn’t done, but I thought I would point out that $2,000 Canadian is only a bit more than $1,200 US, and that the $2T CARES act did a whole lot more than that, including boosting unemployment payments significantly and making forgivable loans to employers who kept their employees on payroll. It was an unprecedented expenditure, more than four times as much as in the 2009 financial crisis.
wild bill – That’s what I’ve been saying all along. The “news”, Fox included, is in the business of fear mongering. The flavor of the month has changed to riots.
The CDC is a complete joke. All of their models and predictions are baseless. Follow them at your peril. Bad data throughout, incorrect starting dates, fudged columns and political directives. We will never know what the real data is, but the CDC is the clear source for incorrect data. The media just perpetuates the CDC limitations and fear mongering. That is what the CDC does. They look at one small piece of the pie and guess what will happen next. Completely ridiculous and politically motivated.
That is 100% accurate Nuttz.
Which of course, it isn’t. Bogus.
You couldn’t be more wrong. The agitators are left wing and as an American, I’m as glad that you’re Canadian as you are. I find most Canadians to be sensible. You’re an exception. Looks like you got 1000 less replies that you thought your self absorbed comment would receive.
I would say CNN and MSNBC are the most divisive news media in this country. Let’s be honest living in Canada their taxes are 30% higher then the U.S. Its always easy to point finders, evidently if you like to throw stones then stay in Canada and keep shoveling the snow.
2 years of expanded playoffs is a pretty creative idea. I don’t love it from a baseball perspective but from the perspective of generating extra $ so that the players can get paid this year and the owners will be willing to swallow their potential losses in 2020 with the incentive of extra $ in 21 is an interesting concept.
I do not want MLB to become the NBA or NHL, with watered down Regular Seasons but doing this for two years is a way for owners who may not want to play ( Orioles come to mind), might change their mind with extra playoff
I think the players should realize that punting this season gives a huge long term advantage to the owners. Right or wrong it’s the players who end up being percieved as greedy and most of all it puts the next collective bargaining agreement squarely in the owners favor having just canceled a complete season without any player being paid. Some players would risk no pay for two seasons, but not all.
I think it’s in the players long term interest to get a season in this year as it will put more bargaining power back in the players hands come the next CBA. So in other words less this year equals more in the future.
Finally someone else gets it. lay down now and benefit later from good relations
baseball has never had any semblance of good relations between owners and players and it’s absolutely no fault of the players.
No fault of the players—really? As it currently stands they’ll have little to stand on if the season does not occur. Their actions come across as simply both greedy and ruinous.
the ridiculous proposal sent by the owners gives them plenty of ground to stand on and a way to epitomize the terrible treatment they’ve gotten from these owners for years.
I don’t see how laying down now gives them more bargaining power for the next CBA if anything it gives them less
Because they aren’t viewed as greedy in the light of a pandemic.
@darkside- where have you been the last 20 years? And…yea, it’s the players fault right now. Remember the last CBA in like 2017 or whenever? They signed it without a counter proposal. And they immediately. Complained it was t good enough. Well….counter!
you dont get my point. there have never been good relations between the two sides in more pleasant times and it has a heck of a lot to do about the cheapness and hardball tactics of owners. good faith has never been there and couldn’t be there if the PA wanted it to be.
No better way to get paid more than by showing you are willing to do the same work for far less.
Good luck with that.
I like the idea of the season starting in June and the expanded playoffs but playing into football weather won’t cut it. 110 game season with double headers into October 1. Let’s play two.
Playoffs in domed stadiums?
I accept. Let’s gooooo!
The opt-out is a smart thing. Any player who feels there is too much risk to himself or his family should have the opportunity to not play, either before the season begins, or, during the season if there’s a new outbreak.
Spoken with forethought. I like it. Players shouldn’t be penalized for a health risk to their families if they choose not to.
Yep, this will help guys like Kyle Gibson, or Cookie if they just want to sit out for their health concerns.
Ok but how do teams plan for this? What if a supposedly contending team had an impact player (or multiple players) who opted out and that makes the team non-competitive, or much less competitive?
Same way they deal with a season ending injury.
That makes sense.
No it doesn’t. Injuries aren’t decisions. These players could eliminate their risks by totally isolating themselves from their family or others for the season. Come on guys. Wouldn’t you skip seeing the family for a few months for a few million bucks?
In the NBA a lot of injuries are decisions.
no. im a normal person who likes his family thank you very much.
Nope, Black. Especially not when I’ve been contractually promised that money anyway, while being able to see my family.
f they sit out they don’t get paid, or a min. part of their full salary. Service time should not be counted either.
I agree. I’m not sure if they should collect their full prorated salary but definitely 50% maybe even 67%.
Yes! This is a good deal! Owners should approve this if they are willing. But if this isn’t approved… we won’t have a season imo…
Agreed – on the surface this seems like a winning solution. Of course the devil is in the details
It’s a starting point. Some good, some bad. Ultimately deferrals will be involved, season will be 100 games or less. Playoffs will be expanded.
Did you notice that the players didn’t touch the bit about prorated salaries, Michael?
thor would look better in red
it is hard to agree. Imagine being an owner that has to pay their closer all of his money to sit at home and still find someone to close games. or I have noone to bat cleanup bc my LF is getting paid to watch his grandma instead of protecting my star player. I can see that the owners may agree to let a player sit at home for league minimum to still keep control of the player in the long run, but I know I would never pay a player who is not hurt to stay home while my team suffers. that is the only thing I can agree with the owners about. they are garbage in this whole situation otherwise
If they stay at home, they only get service time.
This isn’t a good deal for the owners. It gives full pay to the players even if post season is cancelled. Plus the players want 100 million bucks just to show up. This is laughable.
Any MLBTR staffers reading in on here with any clue on how the owners groups will swallow this? Are we getting closer to a compromise?
The article mentioned that the owners viewed this proposal as a ‘non-starter’.
So, unfortunately, it doesn’t look like baseball is anywhere closer to a compromise.
LOL did you read the proposal. Might as well shut things down now.
Yes I did read the proposal and I was hoping someone could maturely shed light on it and that was why I posted the question.
Brown Trout Fisherman
Covid likely to spike with all the protests/riots.
It may have an effect but not substantial considering the vast majority were wearing masks
well the protesters were. the lunatics taking advantage likely werent, though with a lifestyle like that they probably were already exposed.
Got it. So you have been able to determine (through your TV set) who the protesters were and the lunatics were in cities across the country. Impressive to say the least.
yeah its pretty easy. the people breaking the law and robbing stores were the rioters. the people attending a permitted protest were the regular, law-abiding protesters.
The protesters were and are well organized. There are plenty of examples of ads being taken out for paid “actors.”
Same masks for 8 hours when people around you are yelling, spitting, and washing pepper spray out of their eyes likely loose their effectiveness after awhile.
well maybe they should not have been there then
Most masks you see people wearing are going to do very little to protect you if you aren’t taking the other recommended precautions.
Think of wearing a mask the same way as holding a door open for the person behind you. You aren’t doing it for yourself, you are doing it out of consideration for others.
Countless protesters, in fact (as evidenced by photos), not wearing masks, gathering in tight groups and shouting.
Why does it matter if there is? They won’t come back without testing and protocols anyway.
So if it doesn’t spike, does that mean we get to attend the ballgames? If it does spike, it will be among the asymptomatic group. The protestors are all under 60, so less than 0.00002% will have any symptoms.
copying and pasting must be their specialty.
wild bill tetley
Another compelling comeback BlueSkies. Bogus on one response, bogus on another. Consistent. Weak, but consistent.
wild bill tetley
Incompetence and bad writing is your specialty, Viz.
Bogus. I’ve written long responses to theses disinformation posts many, many times, but I don’t remember you responding to a single one of them.
wild bill tetley
That matters? Your argument can be put to the test over the next couple days. If there is a huge spike in every city with riots and mass protest and zero social distancing then you won’t be feeding bogus stats or arguments. If there is no spike, I won’t expect accountability from you. You have no clue what that means either.
Yes, of course it matters. I am not predicting anything. I am pointing out that the use of bizarre and completely baseless statistics to make an argument is bogus, and is often a deliberate effort to spread disinformation. I have made this point here when people both over and underestimate the virus threat often at length and in detail. If you haven’t noticed that isn’t my fault. This is what I have done. What about you? Maybe you should read up on accountability yourself.
I’m glad you have a lot of extra time to call out misinformation, Blue Skies. My friends in the medical profession ALL indicate that the virus was spreading in the United States as early as September, and 100% by October. The models are ALL wrong. There may never be a vaccine, as the coronavirus is more like the common cold than the flu, and we have never been able to develop a vaccine for the common cold. Less than 1% of those who have contracted the coronavirus have serious symptoms, and almost 90% are older people with compromised immune systems. The hospitals here are EMPTY. Yet people like you are so completely afraid it is comedic. You drank the kool-aid, and instead of thinking for yourself you read a few more articles confirming that you and your friends should be scared to death. It is quite pitiful. Until you, and those like you, learn to live with the virus and get over the fear there is no hope for you. This mild virus is not going away, and in the fall we will have new viruses. There will be more next year, but it isn’t an election year so we won’t hear about them.
You been drinking too much kool aid. Either that or listening to the bogus news channels that are doing their best to smear the Pres. and the current administration. If you were in the service you’d know what a Patriot is.
Those of us who were old enough to serve in Nam, protecting your sorry ass before you were even a wet dream and stain on your parents’ sheets, know that El Caudillo del Mar-a-Lago is a narcissistic, lying, draft dodging, racist, moral reprobate. If you had ever served, especially in that era, I might have some respect for your opinions. But, you didn’t, so I don’t.
What makes you think none of the protesters ever get near anyone who wasn’t a protester?
Math isn’t just for school.
I don’t know if this will be accepted but that 114 game schedule is pretty scary considering how likely it seems that we will see a secondary wave. It makes it really likely that we see another stoppage come playoff time.
I’ll still take it~. A June 30th starting date doesn’t leave a lot of wiggle room.
i mean isnt it less scary? more games presumes packing more into a smaller time, so youd probably get more games even if you see the tail cut off the season. more likely it’s truncated, but overall the number of games played will be greater.
They will not close things down when it comes back. All they need are proper protocols and treatments. By November they will be so far ahead from where they were and are now
that looks very good. expanded playoffs for 2021 seems silly but it might sweeten the pot enough for the owners. im very positive about this.
There is nothing good about the proposal.
thanks for that well thought out answer. actually anything you are botheres with or just being a contrarian. feel free to name something in specific that might be bad and ill adress it.
June 30 start is not possible. Playoffs in November when it could be freezing with rain and snow in NY, Boston, Minny, Cleveland, Philly, Washington would be a problem. Players opting out and getting paid. Not happening. There’s your list of reasons, darkside. 2020 season isn’t happening. Accept it.
I feel that 114 games is a lot to ask at this point. Although the pace of the 2020 season would be fast & furious, I’d more support an 81 game season where every game counts. Teams can’t afford to b in the doldrums for long with that schedule.
i mean id tend to think that packing in games would be awkward, but if the players who risk their health are good with it i am too.
Was wondering if more games played, is beneficial to players to increase things like counting stats for future arbitration etc ?
it encourages the owners to accept the players demanding less money cuts above all else. that’s the main reason here. the bargaining factor.
Someone like Mookie Betts probably wants more games. In his walk year. The better the numbers the higher the payday most likely. He’s getting 270mil minimum.
I look at the most recent NBA lockout season as a consequence. The NBA tried to cram a lot of games in a shortened season with a small number of off days. Teams were unaccustomed to playing with the numerous back-to-backs and in some cases three days/nights in a row. The human body needs rest and will be prone to injuries if it’s not adequately received. With those like Mookie in his walk year, I think a season greater than 100 games threatens their health and future earnings.
I think 81 games would generate better spacing between series and also produce a sense of urgency to play well from the start as opposed to patiently waiting for things to gel, like after an All-Star break.
Yeah…but 82 games just sounds better.
I suspect there will be pressure on the teams that do not want to play, and they will likely fold.
Still not a ton of detail, which is understandable at this point. Hate the idea of an expanded post-season, especially for next year. Dilutes the regular season. Probably a precursor for a shorter regular season going forward which is a mistake IMO.
My choice would be 82 games, and expanded playoffs for just this season, but there has to be incentive for certain owners to play. Otherwise why bother especially if your team is going nowhere ( like and I will say it again the Orioles).
lock them out institute a cap or the roll around in the mud continues.
So they need to kill the game to save it?
Kill the game? Too late. The game is imploding in front of our eyes. Greed on both sides continues to stiffle the competitive balance.
Now we have former players buying franchises. The same player supporters are the ones complaining they can’t afford to go to games…..
Once you accept that the game is a business for the owners and a profession for the players, you will understand that the word greed describes exactly nothing. The owners and the players are trying to maximize their take from the game’s revenue, in the same way every other businesses and profession does. Greed is not the issue. The player and owners are dividing up a pie. The problem is only the owners really know the size of the pie, and they aren’t telling. Interesting comments on the situation from Adrian Gonzales. He thinks the season is a lost cause for that reason.
So they’re agreed on expanded playoffs, with players offering another year of such, that could be a big financial boost.
Not agreed on players getting prorated salaries
Not agreed on the number of games.
MLB’s TV contracts run through Oct 3, then have separate contracts for playoffs that they don’t want to mess with as networks have other commitments including NFL.
The path to a deal looks like maybe more games but still ending on time, deferred salaries regardless of whether playoffs are canceled, and the players getting their prorated salaries.
the league can persuade the TV companies to extend their deals. theyve already lost multuple months, so might as well make some back in October.
There’s limits on the number of prime time viewing hours and advertising dollars available.
Do networks make more just airing NFL games, or, paying double royalties to split viewership partially by airing a MLB game at the same time? They already manipulate WS games to avoid conflicts, and these would be mere regular season ones.
I’m sure someone would pick up some of the games, but I also doubt it’d be at the same rate/cost as normal. It’d be heavily discounted.
That makes those games even less appealing to ownership – lack of gates, no concession spending, lower ad revenues, lower tv revenues, but full expenses
oh im not saying they will get the same deal with the networks for that reason, but id also assume that they would be looking to recoup lost revenue as would many advertisers. i still think you get something satisfactory for the last month before getting that extra money from the playoffs.
MLB: We can’t afford to pay players prorated salaries.
MLBPA: Let’s offer a proposal that requires them to pay us even more than they planned originally!
Yeah this happened with the player proposal I heard about on Friday. The owners argued that they lose money on every incremental regular season game and the players’ compromise position is to add games and therefore make the owners’ losses potentially worse. Also, extending the length of the season increases the odds of the playoffs being impacted by a 2nd wave of coronavirus. Plus an additional salary advance of $100M. It seems like the sides are rapidly moving apart.
That said, an opt out for High Risk players is a no-brainer.
The opt-out as written is a non-starter.
I’m all for players being able to opt out of playing IF the player forfeits salary and service time.
As long as it’s very limited in scope. I don’t want to make someone who is at serious risk choose between his salary and his health. I think Kyle Gibson and Carlos Carrasco fit the bill. Maybe meeting these guys halfway is the way to go.
You’re probably right that opting out and accruing service time incentivizes guys to sit out who don’t need to.
The entire world faces exactly that choice. Many of us either face restrictions ourselves, or, have to forego seeing loved ones – some who don’t have tons of time left – to protect them.
I’d argue that the athlete could’ve gotten disability insurance on their own. And then said athlete could go to their personal physician and get placed under quarrantine status. Inability to work while under medical care would kick in their alternative income coverage.
Just because they chose not to explore special options shouldn’t make an employer pay them for no work outside of using applicable sick or vacation time.
I agree with you on one level, but think of a player with preexisting conditions dying from COVID. It’s unlikely, but it’s not like it’s a huge amount of money in the grand scheme of things (assuming it’s a handful of players).
I couldn’t disagree with you any more. Every player should accrue service time for this season; regardless, unless there ends up being no season.
What happens when great players on rookie contracts (Alonso, Buehler) decide to sit out, but have their service time increment? For these players, the service time is the real prize compared to the short-term salary.
They also lose the chance to post more numbers to bolster their arguments in arbitration, so it’s not purely beneficial.
Much fairer offer than the owners offer but it’ll be rejected
Couldn’t disagree more
He must be an MLB player, or if not, simply dumb.
So you edited your original post. Why?
It’s a fair proposal, for sure. I don’t expect the owners will agree to it straight away. They’ll probably want to try to negotiate the amount of games and salary down a bit. It’s a starting point though, right? That’s what everyone who defended that ridiculous joke of a proposal the owners put forth said in it’s defense.
This is at least a good faith offer. The players want salary they were contractually promised, and are wanting to work as much as possible for it. They’re agreeing to expanded playoffs, so the game makes more money. Players shouldn’t have to absorb the losses at the gate when they’re treated as employees, and not business partners.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
There is nothing “good faith” in that offer. If the players want to play (and I’m not sure they do), they have to accept less.
At what point do the owners just say screw it and sign non-union players? There are plenty of good young players who would want the shot to play. And it’s not like crossing a picket line against a union that won’t do anything for you anyway is a difficult moral choice.
If the union actually wanted to include pay and benefits for minor league non-roster players, I might actually respect it. Until then, the MLBPA has no moral high ground.
The MLBPA doesn’t represent minor league non-rostered players, so that’s completely out of their hands. They can only negotiate on behalf of Major Leaguers, and they’re clearly not throwing the league minimum guys under the bus here.
It would’ve been great to watch baseball this year. Too bad the owners and the players don’t realize that if they lose this season due to greed, the revenue in the sport will be lost for a long, long, time. The sport came back in 94, the world may not be able to forgive them again…
I don’t even hesitate. Sign on the dotted line. Let’s resume spring training.
Smell the coffee everyone!
Owners won’t agree to this. If you want to convince yourself then go for it
Maybe it’s an offer to get to an 81 game season with maybe 80-85% of prorated salary, but with expanded playoffs. I think if they can get there we will have a season.
that goes without saying. The reason they won’t is because they’re all Slimy money hungry billionaires who really don’t care about anything except making more money. The only owner that seemed to care was George Steinbrenner all he ever wanted to do is win. 37 years as the Yankees owner and 11 pennants and 7 world series championships. Thats a world series win every 5 years roughly.
MLB is still a business, so of course the owners still want to make money. Steinbrenner still made plenty of profit no matter how much he was spending on payroll. Besides, some ownership groups like the Marlins’ are still in debt.
MLB: We can’t afford to pay players prorated salaries.
MLBPA: We don’t believe you. Please prove your words.
MLB: Ummm…. No!
Ticket revenue suddenly dropping to 0 is all the proof anyone could ever need. Of course they can’t afford it without losing tons of money on the deal! Baseball is still a business.
My suggestion–play 99 regular season games. It will give the playoffs a 2 week head start. Keep the players version of the opt-out clause. Go ahead with the expanded playoffs both years to satisfy the owners. Let’s get this done already!!
this is a very fair deal for the owners. should juzt take it and get done with it!
Well, it’s not looking promising that there will be a season. Big mistake and huge missed opportunity on the part of the owners and players if that’s the case. Not having a season is going to cripple the sport especially when there is a good chance that all of the other leagues will be back and up and running before the 2021 season finally winds its way around. I kind of feel, as a fan, that if the owners and players, who are billionaires and millionaires, respectively, don’t really care enough to play this year, then why should I really care next year?
The Human Rain Delay
I found the most interesting part the willingness to try and play Extra All Star games, Hr derbys and such other money “generators”
Who remembers the old Hr derby in black and white at Wrigley Field L.A with the old cancer phone cable lines in the mix
Hank Aaron Mickey Mantle Ernie Banks Al Kaline Willie Friggin Mays……… How the hell were they pulling that off in the 60’s !! Quite possibly something to revisit a mere 60 years later!
For those younger and dont know- Youtube it ! 60’s Hr Derby Wrigley Field…It was Amazing the winner would stay to play a new chump the next week…. Hank AAron was the best with a 6-1 career record in heads up matches
The Human Rain Delay
There were 26 total episodes in only 1 year on Tv (1960). Then sadly vanished when producer/host Mark Scott died the next year
Mickey Mantle started it by winning 3 weeks in a row vs Aaron, Banks, & Jackie Jensen
Then Mantle won the last match vs Jackie Jensen again
Also the additional up front payment. With a 2nd 100m payment, that’s 270m + of an expected 2b player payroll in a half season (1/8 or so). If I’m the owners I’d counter with an equal 270m deferred payment, payable only if the full 1/2 season & playoffs are completed. Essentially a 12.5 differed payment in exchange for a 12.5% advance is fair and would help to resolve owners fears of the season being cancelled by another wave of lockdowns
The Human Rain Delay
Yea its nice to see the players looking outside the box- I hope that continues afterward as well, this sport needs innovation help that is not being provided by upstairs
Something will get done health permitting, and probably soon. I imagine this week moving forward you will see a little more hugging between the 2 parties with a possible soft deal wrapped up by next weekend
MLBPA is ruining the game of baseball with their greed. People are having a hard time right now. Millions are unemployed. I manage to make about $35000 a year with a college degree. My childhood dream was to be a major league baseball player. I would love to have the opportunity they have for $40000 a year Greed, greed, greed, greed, greed, greed. This is the MLBPA. Let me tell you. I hate how they are ruining my childhood game with their greed. Thousands of us just might call it quits with this sport. What else is worth doing with our spare time? I think plenty if many of us just look elsewhere. The best days of baseball right now appear to be in the past.
How much do the owners make?
Oh, right. That’s a secret.
You do realize that you make more at your job than someone who would’ve done it 60 years ago did, just as Mike Trout makes more than Babe Ruth did? Babe Ruth made far more than the average Joe then, just as Trout does now. You can argue if that’s fair- but these players have unique gifts, that they spend their lives cultivating. We can’t do what they do, at that level. That’s why they are paid as they are- rarity.
You mentioned you’d love to have the opportunity they do for 40k. If you got 51 other like-minded folks together, made 2 teams, you could- with the caveat you’d have to play at a high enough level for people to want to pay to come watch. Again, rarity of ability.
I’m almost always pro-player, because I never compare their circumstances to mine. Our careers are just different, and it makes no sense for me to be anymore upset that they’re trying to maximize their value than it would for me to be upset at anyone else who had an ability I didn’t to maximize their’s.
This comes down to how labor is valued, and treated. The owners won’t open their books. They run their franchises as if everything is classified. Fair enough. The thing is though now times are tough, so they want to be a team in the sense of sharing the loss in revenue. How’s that fair when they never wanted to share the gains?
It’s not greed. It’s about standing your ground, or else you’ll get run over.
You know…. we keep hearing about “no fans in the stands” but I can almost guarantee the owners are going to get some people into those luxery boxes. 10 person cap. High revenue ticket sales. I’d bet on that happening.
The Human Rain Delay
100%, might take a week or 2 but you are spot on
I see maybe a 20/30% capacity being an option maybe after 3-4 weeks as well in the general seating. That would be enough to put your eyes/ears more at ease watching as a Tv viewer as well. You’d basically just be watching a Tampa Bay Rays game then
It’s not really up to the owners when the mayors of cities/governors of states are putting BANS on allowing gatherings.
Or are you saying allow less than 30 Fans in the entire stadium?
if we are honest, knowing the relationships these owners have with politicians, i wouldnt be too suprised if they are allowed to do something like that.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
Guess you don’t follow Chicago politics. The city of Chicago has hated the Cubs since the Wrigely’s sold the team. If the city government could run the Cubs out of business, they would do it gleefully and with malice aforethought.
Tbh I didn’t read the details but the owners better accept this. I want baseball back!
The deferred money is a joke.
Total 2020 projected payroll was $4,095,600,570.
So, under MLBPA proposal of 114 game season, with full prorated salaries, that comes to $2,882,089,290.
In other words, IF the post season is cancelled, the players collectively will defer 3.47% of their salary. That doesn’t do much in the way of helping financial viability.
What’s worse is that it won’t be evenly split. The teams that can worst afford to float player salaries without concessions are also the ones who depend on gate revenue and revenue sharing in general. It would be an outsized/crippling effect for those clubs…
The important thing is that they opened the door to discussion of deferred salaries, which seems like the most logical path to an agreement. The terms will be much different, with probably all the higher paid players having some salary deferred.
Unless a lot of money is deferred for a long long time, it’s not much of a selling point. Especially since the MLBPA is asking for even more money-losing regular season games, another $100M up front, and postponing the playoffs (increasing the likelihood of pandemic induced cancellation).
The posturing is horrible. There obviously is no chance the owners accept this offer. Unless the players wake up soon they will ruin their compensation structure. I hope there is a way forward and legitimate negotiations. Tomorrow will be interesting.
I’d be willing to bet that a huge majority of players could make the case that either they, or someone in their family, could be in danger if they played due to underlying conditions. There are SO many conditions that become a factor with Covid. So, apparently the union thinks that it’s up to every player to decide if they play and get paid or sit and get paid. I don’t see how that issue gets resolved.
Too many games proposed. We’re left with too many doubleheaders where scrubs play
Smokin Joe Charboneau
Scrubs. Funny. I bet seaver41 never even got out of tball.
This MLBPA proposal doesn’t work because it increases the number of money losing regular season games by a lot. View these numbers with skepticism, but it’s the owners public position that they’ll lose $600k on every fanless game at prorated salaries. Rough math ((114-82) extra games * $600k * 30 teams/2) = (-$288M) compared to the proposal the owners already rejected.
It’s like a guy asking $16k for a used car, you countering with $14k, then him countering with $18k.
have you seen the books?
None of us have seen or will ever see the books. The point is that the owners publicly claimed that they lose money per game if salaries are pro rated without fans and this would be worse on that basis. The players counter by requesting more games.
Assume the owners are lying. They won’t accept this deal because they’ve already made a public claim that more regular season games = more losses.
Can you try to keep your posts about baseball please? Thanks.
Don’t need to see the books to realize there ARE losses.
In 2019 mlb attendance was 68,494,752.
In 2019 mlb average ticket price was 32.99.
In 2019 mlb revenue just from TICKETS adds up to $2,259,641,868.48 based on that. NOT including parking, concessions, upgrades, and in stadium spending.
Ballclubs have lots of year-round expenses beyond player salaries. Simple math says you it drains 2x the portion of revenue per game to cover the same expenses at that point. 16,200 is 100/gm in a 162 season, but 16,200 is 200/gm in a 81 season.
So, there’s definitely less revenue per game, and less profit per game, even if you guess at saved expenses. I won’t pretend to kow the numbers, but, MLBPA ignores reality
Both sides should be locked in a room together until they can come to an agreement. I’m so sick of hearing how we all are in this together and making sacrifices yet billionaires and millionaires are holding the national pastime hostage when we need it most. Over 100 thousand dead, over 44 million out of work, our cities are on fire, but God forbid these guys take a pay cut.
Both sides are being unreasonable and should be willing to take a hit. The thing I don’t really get is, do the players not realize they aren’t going to be making anything if the season isn’t played? Also let’s say they don’t take a pay cut, teams won’t be spending as much at least for the next few years trying to recover losses. So it seems the players are shooting themselves in the foot.
The owners should realize the fans are what makes them the money in the first place and not playing is going to lose them fans/money. Plus the way things are going people will probably start looting the stadiums if they can’t come to an agreement.
FIGURE THIS OUT SOON, WE NEED BASEBALL!
Smokin Joe Charboneau
Good words, Moose. I don’t think either side yet realizes how much they can lose if they don’t play this season,
I think the onus is on the players. The owners are richer and can wait and have more leverage.
At some point if this is not resolved, the players either try to form their own league, or owners look to hire non-union players.
The MLBPA strangely doesn’t understand that deferred payments just means the owners will drastically cut spending in free agency next offseason.
No matter how you look at it, Major League Baseball is still a business, and no business is going to purposely run huge losses just because of this unique situation. The players need to get off their high horses and realize that they need to accept further reduced salaries, or either a certain portion of them are going to feel it even worse next offseason, or the season gets cancelled altogether and they get nothing aside from service time and the minor advance payment they got.
If every team across the board cuts spending at once, the MLBPA has a strong argument for collusion, too.
Our country is in a train wreck. And MLB greed by players and owners is a very bad look. Stay home, we don’t need to see your faces for a very long time.
wild bill tetley
I think being worked up over this proposal is a bad play here, everyone. This year, and this pandemic, is and was an unforeseen circumstance. Is watching an expanded playoff or baseball running through to November strange? Yes.
However, we can all agree this year is different. Because of that, it would not be the worst thing in the world to try something new, like an expanded playoff for 1 year, and assess the good and bad from the experience. We can also explore new ideas in a year like this. If there was any season to experiment, 2020 would be the season.
Let’s play ball.
yeah, dont see how anyone can say this is a worse look than 1994. that year there was no outside excuse for a stoppage but it happened anyway. this fight in a situation like this was really unavoidable and was never going to be solved easy. dont give me the “optics” bs – both sides have a lot to lose here and like in 1994, most people saying they will leave will be back because they like the game.
It is worse. Why? 1:,100,000 plus people dead from the virus. 2:,Millions unemployed. 3: The George Floyd incident and its aftermath. 4:,Where MLB is compared to 1994 (below the NBA and hockey and soccer getting more popular). 5:,The profits of both owners and players are much greater then 1994.
reason 1 is why there is an excuse for not having gotten back to play, reasons 2 and 3 are not relevant, reason 4 is not true, and reason 5 shouldnt affect the point im making.
Reason number 2 is very relevant. People cannot afford to buy high ticket items like cars, do advertising dollars are down. Reason # 4 matters because if they do not play and others do,,MLB risks losing more fans to the NHL and MLS. Reason #5 people have no empathy for either side since the players paychecks and franchise values are greater then 1994. The anger simmering in this country has already been taken in the sports world ( see the College Football Hall of Fame), and what we see is a perfect storm of reasons 2 and 4 to partially create reason 5.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
In 1972 (I was 8) I was told that by the time I was an adult that soccer would be the most popular sport in the country and that no one would even remember the rules for baseball, let alone play it.
I remember the same thing. But look at soccer being played by kids, and the success of Mexico in US Stadium. That is very different then back then.
wild bill tetley
Yankee – you just laid out why baseball NEEDS to happen. 2 and 3 are an escape, only people over 35 remember 1994, 5 is all about salvaging and the MLBPA put forth their proposal, and the virus is no longer being policed since Mayors and Governors do not want the police interrupting the chaos, let alone the lack of social distancing.
Cancel the season. The childish, whining, greedy, misguided, and entirely tone deaf stance of owners & players in such chaotic times is pathetic. Money, this whole god damn crisis is about lost money. I ain’t no left wing bleeding heart, I’m just a fed-up baseball fan.
Most of us have gotten used to our lives without sports. I have been a sports nut my entire life, but everything else in my life is more important. Cancel the season, start fresh next year. If I were an owner, why would I open with no fans, no ticket sales, no concessions, no merchandising, etc. why lose big? Tired of hearing these millionaire babies.
Not sure I can work up enthusiasm for baseball – unless baseball is exactly what is needed?
Smokin Joe Charboneau
How do you start fresh next year? Do you really think the more restrictive “lockdown” states are going to allow anyone to attend a baseball game? These governors are loving their newfound power, and aren’t relinquishing it.. Why do you think they all say nothing happens until there is a vaccine? It’s because they know a vaccine for this is highly unlikely.
This counter proposal doesn’t address the key economic issue, reduction of revenues by approximately 40% per game without fans in the stands. Seems to me the players must acknowledge this point in order for an agreement to be made.
With that being said, I think Owners need to bear the lions share of this revenue shortfall, not the most highly compensated players. But both sides need to give on this matter for sure.
It’s hard to side with anyone who isn’t willing to admit basic facts and talk about them.
So the players are negotiating through the media. Their proposal just mysteriously is immediately leaked.
Not like the owners haven’t done that and then some.
The sticking point here is non-health related sitouts, which would mean anyone could simply say “I don’t want to get the virus” and get fully paid without playing.
And that ain’t ever gonna happen.
No baseball in 2020 folks, just ain’t gonna happen.
I do not want to hear about “Risk” and over 100 Regular Season games. If players are really afraid then it should be 82 games or less. The one positive thing for the owners is expanded playoffs for 2 years.
Just cancel the season already. Both sides are pathetic, greedy, unreasonable, and moronic. Go ahead, lose some money and even more fans over a few million dollars and a scamdemic.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
Cancel this season, what about next? The same issues will still exist …
No they won’t. After the election, the scamdemic will be done. Heck, we’ve already moved on to race wars since the murder hornets didn’t scare anyone.
Okay trending towards a 81 game season with prorated salaries but paid over two or three years to help cashflow. Lets just close this deal.
if the players are okay with 100+ games than the owners will be too.
Not necessarily. More games equals more pay for the players but the owners really make out during the playoffs. So that shorter 82 game season with an expanded playoffs works way better for the owners, especially IF they really will lose money on regular season games as they contend.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
tcostant, you hit out of the park. The owners issue is cash flow, not overall wealth.
I believe the March agreement added three players to the MLB roster, which seems to have been overlooked. The union gets 90 additional MLB salaries. Maybe for agreeing to deferred payments, the union gets to keep some of those 90 extra salaries?
The other thing that gripes be about the union is their insistence on players getting paid if they choose not to play due to Virus concerns. Isn’t part of a union’s responsibility to help it’s members financially during hardships? Doesn’t the MLBPA have some sort of financial reserve to help players in times of distress? They want the owners to pay for this … guess where the owners get the money? From us, the fans.
Screw the MLBPA (and the owners too!).
Before we jump all over everything, this is bargaining and it’s a counterproposal. By no means was the owners offer reasonable, and maybe this isn’t either, Let these folks get in the room and start the hard work of negotiating. If there’s a deal to be made, find it. If not, then let’s move on. Baseball would be doing a serious wrong to itself by not reopening. But, when you are talking about billionaire owners and (mostly) millionaire players, they can make their own choices about how they want to go about their business. In the old days, we’d have the Federal Mediation Service come it, but I doubt either side would be interested.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
This wasn’t a counter-proposal and the bargaining should have started weeks ago.
I wish I could be the final arbiter in this. Both sides would hate me (but fans and minor league players would love me).
Semantics. The point is the same….let the sides get down to serious bargaining. Any settlement we think is fair can only be accidental, since we have no idea what the real ownership numbers are.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
Fair enough Mike, Though the only agreement that makes sense is one where both sides are unhappy.
1. Play 2020 outside of the CBA with only players who want to play this year using a revenue split. All contracts are suspended for the year but resumed next year as though 2020 didn’t exist.
2. Guarantee the owners a profit in exchange for guaranteeing specific amounts to players and split anything above those guarantees.
3. Cancel the season.
We need to step away from the outrage and fairness talk. The facts are that the owners can cut losses for 2020 now without paying players any more money by canceling the season. There are also zero guarantees next season happens let alone returns to normal. The union can fight for the contracts signed before the pandemic or they can fight for the contracts that come after the pandemic. Fighting to have several billion dollars go to a handful of players when that same amount of money could end up representing close to a decade of future contracts if things go poorly isn’t about representing your membership. It’s about representing agents.
Option 1 using scabs would never work because some owners will never do it. For example, the Angelos family with the Orioles have always been pro labor and were vehemently against using replacement players back in 1994.
I am becoming increasingly pessimistic regarding a season ever being played. The likelihood they find a middle ground that both sides can live with just seems out off reach if the player’s proposal is a “non-starter.” There is a lot more to work with in the player’s proposal than the owners. But the owners seem hell bent on cutting the players salary more that just the pro-rated piece. This does not seem to be about this year but trying to create leverage against the players for the next CBA negotiations.
Owners are losing up to 40% of their revenues by fans not being in attendance. People seem to think baseball teams make $100’s of millions of dollars each season. Guess what, they don’t! So for owners to ask players to reduce their pay seems reasonable to me. Owners should not ask players to eat 100% of the difference at all. But sharing 25-35% of those losses seems like a reasonable ask to me. The players proposal is worse than what the owners proposed IMO. If the players won’t compromise then this season is over with.
Only the owners know how much revenue they are losing and they are not sharing those numbers. This is the issue, and nothing else, really. They are asking to the players to trust them, which we have to know they aren’t going to do, for very obvious reasons. As fans we can’t say what is reasonable, even if we did know the numbers, which we don’t, because the numbers are hidden.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
Seems to me the players really don’t want to play, and the owner don’t want to pay them anyway. Since neither side is motivated to play, games this season seem pretty much impossible.
And if they don’t play this year, what will change enough for games to be played with fans next year? It’s not like state governments (NY, PA, MA, OH, MI, MN, WI, WA, MA, CA, IL especially) are going to allow people to attend events (except in a few states, such as FL, TX, AZ, GA and maybe CO), and it’s not like the virus is just going to disappear.
Maybe, hopefully, both sides have actual adults with critical thinking skills and they figure out a compromise. Doesn’t seem likely though.
The logical conclusion is that MLB as a league ceases to exist, and some sort of players league is formed, Sooner they start working on this, the better. Because MLB as it is now is a complete failure.
I see it differently. MLB, Players Association, Agents all want a 2020 season, they are simply haggling over distribution of monies.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
Socal, hope I’m wrong and you’re right, Seems like even without fans in attendance there should be enough money to go around, But both sides tend to selfishness.
Typical positional bargaining is for each side to negotiate the best deal possible (win-lose) and will continue to do so until the 11th hour to convince their respective constituents that there was no more to be had (or given the least possible) to get a deal. Right now, there doesn’t appear to be a hard deadline, so it may come down to either party making its BAFO (best and final offer). I am convinced that everyone wants a season. MLB will lose a lot of TV revenue if no games are played, and players will lose a substantial amount of money and perhaps make it difficult to have an economic strike in Dec. 2021 into the 2022 season.
The owners got the counter proposal they deserved after their first proposal. Now both sides can start the give-and-take bargaining that will result in an agreement for 2020.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
The real bargaining should have started six weeks ago. Maybe it actually did, but is not reported. Doesn’t seem likely as accurate journalism hasn’t actually flourished recently.
Socalbum, great to see you after more than a year. I’m NL_MVP_1963 And I hope you are correct on your post above.
owners and players may as well be speaking different languages. The only point of all this is to see how it plays out. they may as well get in a room and see if there is any hope and they need to do this this week. After thinking for one minute here is my solution. The owners come up with a final number they are willing to give all players for salary. It will likely be something like 60 per cent of SALARY FOR an 82 game season not 50 per cent. The players decide how to divide the money amongst themselves.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
Why would the owners voluntary offer ten percent more? If they were willing to do that, players would accept it in about five minutes.
Sounds like progress.
It has addressed many issues.
Displayed some logic and fairness.
I’m glad to see logic and reasonableness.
Nothing will be 100% perfect for everyone.
Hopefully they work this out soon.
I see little in this that is unacceptable on arrival.
Up to this point, MLB team owners have things backwards. Why try to force a major league season with a nonreceptive MLBPA and cancel minor league baseball for 2020 when they should be doing the exact opposite?
If the MLBPA won’t accept an agreement that allows owners to keep their heads above water, why bother dragging things out? Make a last best offer and call it good … or, in this case, call it off. No MLB in 2020.
And replace it with minor league ball.
A single AAA team with perhaps a 50-man roster for each MLB franchise, selected from the organization. Cactus League games at night, out of the heat, and Grepefruit games whenever. Televise them with a special negotiated deal. Let Bill Murray do the color commentating for Cubs games. Have fun with it everywhere.
Player development would continue. Fans would quickly appreciate the talent. The minor league players could be paid a decent salary for a year … maybe as much the policemen who keep our streets and homes safe.
In the case of the Marlins at least, fans would not be watching a lesser product on the field.
Yeah, this is a joke, right? With the overwhelming probability of a major wave of the virus coming in fall and winter, how on earth do these fools think they’re going to get through a season that’s probably going to last into December.
Come on folks, this needs to be about what’s actually feasible given the public health situation and not how much money you WANT to make. Frankly, and this applies to both the owners and players, NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU WANT.
In a world where a whole lot of people are living in absolute horror, both the owners and players need to come up with something that’s good for the sport not just a bunch of wallets and bank accounts that are already overflowing
This is right. A whole lot more realism needs to be in this discussion. Any resumption is going to mean some new infections. And the world is far too chaotic right now to be consumed by arguments between owners and players. They owe very little to us, but they’d be smart to recognize that a settlement, and a quick one, is in everyone’s best interests.
If idiots can go out in mass and riot and loot in the tens of thousands without any worry about social distancing or whatever else, we should be able to go to baseball games. Nobody is going to force anyone to go, but those of us who aren’t scared should have the option.
Many of them will start worrying in about two weeks when they turn up positive. Then their families will have to start worrying, too.. You sound like a very selfish person.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
Ted is selfish because he wants to go to a baseball game? But the truly selfish are the looters, players, and owners.
The suckers are the fans and the minor league players?
Greed on both sides know no bounds. Payers need a wake up call on their value to society. I side slightly with the owners but not by much as they are making plenty of dough.
How about Virtual Baseball? Make a video of each pitcher throwing a pitch. Each batter taking a pitch and swinging the bat. Make videos of players fielding grounders, catching fly balls, making throws. Running bases, sliding videos from each player. Turn it into a reality show. Have Virtual Games comprised of all the footage put together into a realistic scenario. By the time one game is finished it will be time for the 2021 season. The next time there will be actual baseball games. There. Solved.
Hmmm…Expanded playoffs? Uh, that definitely expands the chance that some team that wouldn’t have a serious chance to have made the playoffs in 162 games, to make the playoffs and win it all – and that’s before we consider the surprise team or two or three that may be enough of a surprise to do this.
The only question is, would people accept the 2020 World Series Champions being teams like the Padres, the Rockies, the Reds, the Marlins, the Blue Jays, the White Sox, the Tigers, the Angels, the Mariners, the Rangers?
If one of these pull off something like that, would they earn the same recognition of a “Miracle Team” like the 1969 Mets, 1988 Dodgers, or 2003 Marlins?
As for the DH, we might as well get used to it. It’s coming no matter what and this may be the start of it as a permanent part of the NL. I’m into traditional baseball, but have dome to terms with the reality of the future of baseball.
This is as unserious as the owner proposal. The owners said that every game played without fans was a money loser for them. So the players decided that meant they should play more games without fans and make sure they make more money and owners lose more money. That makes no sense.
People over 65 are high risk, so any player with a parent over 65 can opt not to play and be paid his full salary in this proposal.
Cancel the season. It is too dangerous. We can live without baseball for at least one year.doing what is safe and right is more important than a game.
Honestly I’m open to any format as long as it’s considered temporary and allows baseball and/or other sports to resume. There will never be a format which satisfies everyone. So find a solution all parties can accept and let’s move on.
This is going to end badly regardless. I wouldn’t be surprised if the owners now push and insist on the adding of salary caps and non guaranteed contracts to the next CBA as other sports do. And the players have no one to blame but themselves.
Is there some law I’m unaware of that says billionaires can’t possibly lose money?
I’m sure whatever short term loss will be made up over time with public good will not to mention the rocketing values for the franchises.
The value of franchises will be rocketing alright, rocketing the wrong way once they start operating in the red.
Call me crazy, but rich people don’t get rich by spending more than they make.
Well Scott, it worked for McCourt.
And only in America can one side make a concession in a negotiation and somehow the public believes that side is the one not operating in good faith
The players are making no concessions here. They agreed to be paid a pro-rated amount based on how many games MLB decided to play. When MLB decided to play 82 games players decided that wasn’t enough money and raised it to 114.
There’s no provision in the original agreement for players opting not to get play, let alone getting paid and getting service time if they opt not to play. There’s a provision they get service time if owners cancel the season.
The players aren’t even making a concession to take less salary if the post-season is cancelled. They just agree to take the post-season money later.
The only real concession is adding some teams to the post-season. Adding a few Wild Card games won’t increase revenue by much at all.
Neither side is operating in good faith. That the owners aren’t shouldn’t give the players a pass.
I always knew that the owners were stupid (and this is coming from someone whose entire career has been in “management,” rather than “‘labor”), and now they go and prove it.
An argument that states, “With a 114-game plan on the table, that will mean more salary paid (roughly 70% of the original salaries) for more regular season games, which isn’t likely to sit well with owners who are already claiming to be facing $4 billion in losses if an 82-game season was played without fans in the stands,” is a canard.
If true that losses are larger due to fewer games being played, then more games played, over a longer period (with the corollary of increased fan attendance as more games are played), would ameliorate any supposed losses … which are a suspicious assertion on their face.
How can you have increased fan attendance if no fans are allowed? The more games without fans the more money owners will lose.
Over the duration of the season, as the opportunities arise for expanded presence in stadia, as authorized by local governments (governors and mayors), there will be fans allowed into ballparks. They may not be packed (but they rarely are, except for series such as BoSox v. Yankees … think about the typical Marlins, Rays, Tigers games), but fans will be there. Additionally, season ticket-holders and corporations that have annual subscriptions have already paid for their tickets, so that revenue is already in house.
Your presumption is that games will be played, all season, without fan in attendance; mine is that the fans will be allowed in as the season progresses. MLB’s presumption is the latter.
No way later in the season fans are allowed especially with a second wave
The revenue from season ticket holders and corporations will be returned to those groups if they haven’t already been. You can’t sell people something, not deliver, and expect to keep the money.
It seems likely that fans will be allowed to attend games at some point but you don’t know when or how many. That revenue is impossible to calculate now, but should be distributed later if it happens.
One problem with fans who are socially distant is that it won’t be like a Marlins games. They close the upper deck and put their fans in as small a space as possible. This saves on the number of concession stands, ushers, clean up crew, and even electricity. The Marlins can put 10,000 fans in an area for 20,000. Now you have to open the whole park for a small number of fans. Costly.
Not sure that normal concepts of management and labor apply to professional sports.
The principles of collective bargaining apply … except, in this case, labor is negotiating against a non-transparent oligopoly … in fact, a monopsony.
95% of the risk is on the players so I’m with them. I would say if they arent compensated right I wouldn’t play either. One thing I feel that is lost is the players have one job and that’s playing baseball so if the don’t play they loose money. The owners have multiple ways of income. Let the owners loose some money they can make it back, but these players cant without playing ball. So the owners need to shut up and listen.
I don’t understand how the playoffs could begin in November. It’s too cold for night baseball in many of the cities. and baseball cannot compete with either college or pro football. The only possibility would be to play at neutral warm weather sites, which would only further reduce the chance of meaningful attendance at games (if fans are permitted).
The owners will make money if the players get prorated salaries. Take a team like Tampa, their TV revenue would be around 70 million for half a season, and their salary’s would be abut 35 million for half a season. The Yanks on the other end of the spectrum would make 300 million for half the season with the players salaries about 110 million. I don’t get it! All the team will make money with TV and prorated contracts.
One of the biggest problems is football. MLB will be up against not only the NFL but College Football. Thursday Night NFL, Friday and Saturday Night College and Sunday and Monday Night NFL.
What makes you think football is going to start on time? The idea that in September, 70,000 people are going to pack NFL stadiums as if nothing happened. And as for the colleges-many schools won’t be open for students come the fall. If the students aren’t allowed say at the University of Michigan, there isn’t going to be football on Saturday
Since there is no transparency, it is impossible to tell. Obviously, there are more expenses to running a ball club than just player salaries. There are also more revenues than broadcast rights.
Keep in mind that teams have a lot of expenses beyond player salaries. They have to pay rent for their stadium whether they use it or not. They have marketing, finance, accounting, and minor league scouting and player development. There are a lot of costs associated with playing games and maintaining stadiums.
I have no idea how much that’ll all cost but it isn’t as simple as TV revenue minus player salaries.
Bottom line, neither the owners or players care about the fans. In my 65+ years, I’ve seen work stoppages, lockouts, etc, and each time a faction of the fans proclaim how they will never attend another game. It has been my observation, that for every fan that “quits” attending, another one steps in and takes their place after these events. Having said that, I wish these negotiations would quit being played out in the media. Agree to play or agree to cancel. Makes no difference to me anymore. I’m retired, and a season ticket holder for the Rangers, and really miss going to the games. My wife and I have been to a game at each of the 30 MLB ballparks, so don’t accuse me of not being a fan for my statement that
it doesn’t matter to me this year.
I’m beginning to feel the same way except that I am less sure that baseball can recover from any more self-inflicted wounds. The poor handling of the cheating scandal was bad enough, then if it’s followed up by muffing an opportunity to run a shortened season this year and setting the stage for another huge labor dispute next year, the future of the game looks very bleak. They will have to come up with pointless novelty changes to the game to regain the attention of the fans in the same way they allowed PEDs run rampant when they were in desperate need of eyeballs after the ’94 donnybrook. Bottom line, MLB is badly run. The decision-making structure is chaotic and it isn’t going to improve any time soon. Maybe ownership will eventually realize that they need a strong commissioner who can override them for the good of the game, but the situation will probably have to get a lot worse before it gets better.
What happened to the players willing to play for 50% of their full salaries over more than 81 games to help offset owner losses? They proposed a 114 game season and want to get paid their full salaries for all 114 games? This proposal is even worse for the owners! Also, I’m not a big fan of players getting paid if they choose to sit out the season due to ‘legitimate’ health risks. Players should have the option to sit out the season if they feel they need to, but they should not get paid for it.
If the players agree to take 50% of their salaries over 114 games then this could be something the owners should consider, but they also need the protection that if games get cancelled over COVID, payroll needs to be reduced on a pro-rated basis. There’s no way owners are going to agree to pay these salaries ‘no matter what’. This is taking a step backwards and if cooler heads don’t prevail soon, then this season is over and done with.
The idea of “50% of their salaries” was started in connection with playing half a season. Really they were making 100% of their salaries pro-rated to actual games played.
I believe the owners actually floated the idea of more than 50% of salary in the pre-proposal leaks. Idea was low wage players would earn around 94% and higher wage wound up around 67% on a per game basis. The popular taking point converted that to be over a full season rather than per game played.
So while a $10m salary player could earn 5m for a half season, and maybe 3.5m under the reductions, rather than say the player earns 70% of what he could under proration, they talk about him only earning 35% of the original contract.
It’s all about spinning the numbers and info to look bad.
Players will never take 50% of what pro-rated salary could be.
I can imagine someone like Blake Snell complaining about his sore pinky
Angels & NL West
Negotiations are best played out behind closed doors. Negotiating trade deals, labor deals, etc are an ugly business and not for the faint of heart.
What leaks out is a small fraction of what is discussed and is carefully crafted for PR purposes by both sides.
In this case, both sides want a deal. As an individual that has sat at the table, I can tell you that is all that matters. Therefore, there will be baseball in 2020. There will be hills and valleys in the negotiations. There will be days of pessimism and days of optimism. In the end, there will be baseball. It just may not happen in the July 4 time frame originally discussed.
Owners are crazy out of line on this one, they made 9,9 billion last year, and with prorated salaries and no fans they will make over 4 billion this year.
Can’t wait to see the season cancelled !
I think there may be a season, but will be less games. I think less of MLB after all of this. These players are greedy. I hope the Reds trade Bauer before the season begins to the Dodgers.
Just everyone needs to get on with life….ALL this quarintine crap and now riots are just all scare tactics. Getting back to normal life would be good for everyone.
TommyTBorn, with ya. Let the season get cancelled and watch the LONG TERM hostility both sides get. Watch college sports and the NBA, NHL, and NFL launch their seasons, leaving the MLB owners and players sitting alone, owning a future legacy of being indifferent, narcisstic A-holes. The sport will then take YEARS to recover financially. Why any fans would have sympathy for either of these 2 groups of A-holes is beyond belief……..at the end of the day, all of their posturing and sword rattling will probably end and theyll cut a deal at the last hour of the last possible deadline. Because both sides CANNOT POSSIBLY BE THAT STUPID.