6:20 pm: Middleton rather firmly reiterated his unwillingness to trade Wheeler. “If they offered me Babe Ruth, I wouldn’t trade him,” the managing general partner told Olney. “I have authorized no one to have a conversation about trading him.”
12:57 pm: Both owner John Middleton and team president Andy MacPhail have denied Olney’s report, according to Jim Salisbury of NBC Sports Philadelphia, with Middleton saying “there’s zero truth to this.” MacPhail stated that Wheeler “is very much in our plans going forward,” and while “I’m not surprised that other clubs might inquire about him, [a trade is] not something on our radar.”
11:25 am: The Phillies have let other teams know that they are open to hearing trade offers for right-hander Zack Wheeler, ESPN.com’s Buster Olney reports. Wheeler signed a five-year, $119MM free agent deal with Philadelphia almost exactly one year ago, yet the Phils “have communicated…that they are facing a financial crunch,” Olney writes.
As always, teams are routinely “open to” receiving trade offers on just about any player as a matter of due diligence, just in case an unexpectedly great offer is floated. The Phils being willing to listen about Wheeler trades doesn’t necessarily mean that he is being openly shopped. This being said, there were already indications that the Phillies were looking to limit spending or even cut payroll in the wake of their revenue losses from the shortened 2020 season, and moving some or all of Wheeler’s remaining $96.5MM would certainly accomplish those rumored financial goals.
In the bigger picture, of course, trading Wheeler could also be a sign that a larger shakeup is coming in Philadelphia. Trading an established front-of-the-rotation arm isn’t the type of move made by a big-market team that is planning to contend, and if Wheeler is on the table in trade negotiations, it’s fair to assume the Phils are also willing to discuss anyone earning a big salary. Olney reports that “there is no indication” Bryce Harper is a trade candidate at this point. Harper has a full no-trade clause and is still owed $274MM over the next 11 seasons, so moving him might possibly be too complicated to manage.
Beyond Harper, however, Jean Segura (owed $30MM through 2022) has already been mentioned as a possible trade candidate, Andrew McCutchen is owed $20MM in salary for 2021 plus a $3MM buyout of a $15MM club option for 2022, and Aaron Nola is slated to earn $31MM through the 2022 season and is controllable through 2023 on a club option. Nola would certainly be the most attractive trade chip to rival teams, though one would think he would be pretty untouchable unless the Phillies were embarking on another complete team rebuild.
It also remains to be seen if the Phils would entirely abandon the idea of competing in 2021, or whether they would try the even more difficult strategy of trying to add pieces to contend even while in the midst of this “financial crunch.” Olney opines that it’s at least possible the Phillies would reallocate any money saved in a Wheeler trade towards trying to re-sign J.T. Realmuto, though it would seem likely that Realmuto would be wary about rejoining a team that just dealt another star free agent a year into a long-term contract. Plus, as Olney notes, “no matter what happens, there will be gaping holes in the roster,” since the Phillies already have needs in the bullpen and around the diamond, and trading Wheeler would create even greater need in the rotation.
Despite some fingernail issues that led to surgery in October, Wheeler posted some strong numbers in his first year in Philadelphia. The right-hander posted a 2.92 ERA, 6.7 K/9, 3.31 K/BB rate, and 55.9% groundball rate over 71 innings in 2020, reducing his strikeout rate at the benefit of generating more grounders and keeping the ball in the park. Among qualified pitchers, only Dallas Keuchel had a lower HR/9 than Wheeler’s NL-leading 0.38 figure.
Trevor Bauer is the only free agent pitcher projected to earn more than $96.5MM on the open market this offseason, and that assumes Bauer takes a longer-term deal rather than a shorter-term contract with a higher average annual value. With that in mind, Wheeler’s remaining contractual obligations will give some trade suitors pause, unless some other salary is moved back to Philadelphia in return. If the Phillies do have some level of desperation to cut payroll, however, a club willing to take Wheeler’s contract in full might only have to surrender a minimal amount of prospect return.
Hot potato! Hot potato!
A significant issue is that after losing tens of millions a lot of teams may not be in a position to pick up high dollar contracts.
Who lost money? Are teams opening their books? Until they do, why should we believe them?
Depending on TV contract every team lost ticket sales, concession sales, parking revenue, that’s a loss of revenue I.e money
They all lost money. Did they operate in the red in 2020? That remains to be seen. But they all lost money.
I think you are right. Are we talking lost money relative to previous years’ revenues (probably in all cases yes), but did they go into the red for the season (I assume many did, but not necessarily all)
Revenue are not profits. The players only got paid 37% of their contracts. That is $2.4 billion less expenses for the teams. Manfred already said that the teams lost a total of $2.3 billion in revenue. I don’t believe the teams lost any money and when you look at the evidence that the teams are paying free agents more than anyone expected them, it makes it even clearer that they didn’t lose money.
For the 2021 season the owners split $2.25 billion in additional, guaranteed TV revenue from the new national TV deals. That is over $70 million per team.
They lost revenue. It is highly questionable whether the owners lost profits. After all, the players took a $2.4 billion hit in the wallet while the owners are only claiming a total of $2.3 billion in lost revenue.
Let’s see how revenue sharing shakes out. Perhaps you are right and baseball should get rid of the fans permanently since they don’t create revenue for the players or Owners…… The players told the fans to drop dead ala Blake Snell….
That’s really unlikely. There were 68.5 million tickets sold in 2019. What is the average revenue per ticket, including the ticket, concessions, parking, etc.? I’m not sure what their share of parking is, but if the average revenue per ticket was $50, then tickets alone cost the MLB a loss of $3.4B. And that’s before TV and radio revenue.
70 millionaire team? That is maybe one new contract. When considering dollars in/out we must consider all dollars in/out, not just the ones that fit our narrative. The still pay retired players, players under contract, employees, etc. 70 million is not very much when taken in the whole context of many teams’ budget. As far as your math goes, the players may have take the same hit overall (I still think you’re off) but they have zero expense comparatively. It results in a far bigger impact to the owners.
As far as fans go, take fans out of the stadium, TV attendance continues to drop as well, until it evaporates completely.
Apparently out in left field has been hiding under a rock the last ten months.
Then again, there is plenty of class envy on this board, as evidenced by other comments, and the endless stream of minimum wagers spending owners’ money ridiculously. How one can claim owners did not lose money during a shortened season w no fans in the stands as well as the concomitant purchases at the ballpark…well, it goes to show the lack of understanding of basic economics.
Oh, and owners are in the business to make money. They take risks, they are on the hook for salaries…and they expect to make money. Or maybe y’all work for free?
@Sideline Redwine no he’s been commenting as “Pads Fans” and “Koamalu”
Teams typically spend around 50% of total revenue on MLB payroll.
$70+ million per team is enough for every team in baseball to comfortably add a Cole, or Harper, or Machado, or Arenado in 2021.
That is not my math. Its MLB’s and MLBPA’s math. The players took a deal that paid them 37% of their contracts for 2020. MLBPA said that the total payroll going into the season was $4,049,034,690. 67% of that is $2,712,830,000. The players got $170 million in April and May and there were an additional salaries for rookies and performance bonuses which left $2,479,910,000 that the players gave up in earnings because of the shortened season in 2020..
Manfred said that the teams lost a total of $2.3 billion in revenue.
We know from the teams that are owned by public corporations like the Braves that all revenue from fans attending in person amounts to 30% or less of total revenue.
Some teams have debt service on the stadiums, but that is an expense they would have paid anyway and MLB still had an estimated $9.3 billion in revenue in 2020.
The point is that the players took a loss, not the owners.
So we have determined Ryan’s other accounts.
Westcoastryan
Redrooster
thelegendaryharambe
pitcherwins…
and now Sideline Redwine
That is an impressive feat Ryan. How many more new accounts are you going to make? Which ones did I miss?
@Pads Fans who is the “We” you are referring to? Is it Koamalu, Outinleftfield, Websoulsurfer, WatermelonMtnScout and the Padfather? 😛
What happened to the last 3 anyway? Ban?
What will happen first: Matt Holliday touching home plate or Pads Fans addressing his assertion that the players have to be paid their full, non-prorated salaries if the season is less than 82 games?
I’ve got my money on Matt Holliday…
It could be a play by the owners to screw over the players? That what you thinking. They all got together and met that slimy cigar smoking alien from space jam? Maybe they did who knows? The coronavirus is going to transform the planet. Already has in a lot of places, but before you eat the rich remember they are humans and that will make you a cannibal…. I don’t like them either. They have to much and lie about not having enough because of human greed.
“Wouldn’t trade Wheeler for Babe Ruth…?!” Ummm what? I’d trade Wheeler for a lot of players then make a move to replace his spot. What the Phillies need is bullpen arms
Tickets, sales, concessions and parking, etc accounts for almost 50-60% of team income. Plus the TV deal brought in less income by not playing 162 games.
Ok Ryan.
Everything related to fans attending games in person amounts to 30% or less. We don’t even have to guess at that. We have the Braves public records.
The national TV deals are 100% guaranteed money for the owners. Manfred said as much in June. The new National TV deals will be $2.25 billion more per season starting in 2021 than they were in 2020 and that is all 100% guaranteed as well.
What we don’t know is what percentage of their local TV deals the owners got. We do know the Dodgers got 100% of theirs. I have no idea about other teams.
We also know that the owners got an extra $450 million in TV money for the extended playoffs in 2020.
One of the biggest issues is that Manfred SAYING teams lost $2.3B in revenue is much different than the teams actually opening their books to show the MLBPA. With the upcoming labor meetings next season, this was a horrid time for the pandemic because that just increases the importance of that next negotiation. The MLBPA did a pretty poor job the last time around, so they are likely looking to claw back some $, but owners will continue to cry poor…..but won’t open the books to prove it. Enjoy this season because 2022 is far from guaranteed.
@Pads Fans I love how you have to deflect to that because you get your ass handed to you when you try to actually debate with facts.
For what it’s worth, Matt Holliday hasn’t been spotted around Coors Field lately so you’ve still got a chance to beat him…
Its ok Ryan. We know all your account names now and you only have one narrative. Keep it up.
Deflect deflect deflect
Everyone saw those comments from you and your evil twin Koamalu so you’re just gonna have to live with that. You are only making things worse for yourself at this point.
angels are willing to spend money. they need multiple pitchers and a catcher. hence, wheeler’s salary and prospects requirement ma l es the an unlikely candidate.
Easy come Easy go. Bad time to be a Phillies fan. I think this signals no return for Realmuto and no big free agent additions.
I mean with the new GM it was obvious no Realmuto but I think there might be maybe 1 middle of the line FA starter maybe Tananka
What new GM? The Phillies don’t have one.
Wheeler would be very welcome back in Queens.
“Under New Management!”
Wheeler *really* wanted to re-up with the Mets. He even came back to them one last time after the Phillies’ offer to see if they could compete, but he was turned away.
I blame Brodie (worst GM in baseball for the past couple of years) and the idiot Wilpons…especially Jeff. Wheeler wanted to be a Met, but the Mets were going to have to slash payroll if they didn’t sell because they had large loan payments coming up this year and next year due to how they structured the loans. The Wilpons were leveraged to the hilt and Fred (Wilpon Sr.) is quite old and he/his family wanted to cash out before they ran into a huge tax bill if Sr. died and still owned the majority share of the club. It was a cluster….so Wheeler leaving was 100% about money the Wilpons didn’t have to spend.
From having stupid money to this
Unbelievable. Bryce Harper will not be happy to hear this.
I don’t about that… he’s getting paid and he’s never been the type of player that seems to prioritize winning over everything else.
Why Harper picked the Phillies over the White Sox I never understood. He took a few marginal dollars over winning. Hard to respect that. My goodness he would have been a beast in the White Sox lineup between Abreu and Jiminez.
Wsox never was in the harper sweepstakes
Yea… CHISOX went after Machado not Harper
I believe he wanted to stay closer to the East Coast and his wife’s family.
White Sox went after both players. Machado was the preferred sign though.
You’re correct but it was the Yankees, his childhood team, that he passed up for a “few more dollars” in relative terms.
Glad he did, because it may just humble the big guy.
That info went past him like his username.
Actually the final two teams to sign Harper were the Phillies and the Giants. He wanted to be close to his Las Vegas home and he even said in an interview they were the only two teams he was interested in. The Chisox, Yankees and Dodgers were never considered by him and the Dodgers offered a short term, high salary contract.
Yankees never made an offer. Where do you guys get this stuff?
White Sox never made an offer to Harper.
@yankee Clipper Yanks had Stanton and Judge so how was Harper playing RF for Yanks again? He would fit in with the Yankees fans not the clubhouse because he is a dbag
That comment would make you the dbag.
“not the clubhouse because he is a dbag”
Again, where do you guys get this stuff? He was a well-liked member of the Nats and Phillies clubhouses. If you’re basing this on the Papelbon incident, I think any former teammates of Papelbon’s can you tell you how difficult that guy was.
It’s so hilarious all the preconcieved notions people have about certain players.
@VonPurpleHayes from the Washington Post…
“Though few mention it, subtracting Harper, while it will cost 34 homers, a .899 career OPS and some amazing hair flips, would help any team improve its attention to fundamentals. When the most famous player on the team can’t go 10 days without failing to run out a groundball or overthrowing a cutoff man by 15 feet or throwing to the wrong base or being caught unprepared in the outfield or on the bases, it’s hard to demand total alertness from the other 24.
‘Write it,’ one prominent Nats vet said.”
No one named in the quote. Smells fishy to me, BUT you posted a source, so I give you credit. The guy has been nothing but hustle in Philly so far. And he played very well for the Nats except when they moved him to center.
Well obviously the player isn’t going to allow the WoPo to use his name.
Lol who wants to play for that armpit franchise?
Keep dreaming about winning another ws. You’ll find a way to lose.
Link? If you can quote it, you can link it.
@Pads Fans you are literally the king of quoting without linking (or pretending to quote without linking)
@Pads Fans done
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/how-can-the-nats-be-better-without-bryce-harper-its-fundamental-really/2019/02/15/cfe9eb34-3164-11e9-813a-0ab2f17e305b_story.html
I mean this could be Papelbon lol! Seriously though thanks for quoting and sourcing.
@VonPurpleHayes Harper wasn’t a National in 2018
Papelbon* wasn’t a National in 2018
Dude, it’s the Washington post lol. I wonder if they ever made things up to fit their narrative before?(sarcasm)
@Troutgolfsinoctober you can draw your own conclusions about the quote’s legitimacy. Love your username by the way.
Thanks.
Was it “stupid money” or “stupid’s money”?
Sell the damn team Jon Middleton!!
To me this is the most surprising news I have heard all day. I mean hearing Seguras or even McCutchens name make sense to me as trade candidates. But I don’t see Nola being one. I hardly even see Wheeler being one. And I don’t think Harper will even be mentioned as a trade candidate. His contract is large and he has a no trade clause. I do feel wheeler would bring more back than segura or mccutchen.
Harper does not have a no trade clause. He insisted against it.
Oh okay. I thought I read in the article he did have a full no trade clause but I am mistaken!
No, Harper has a full no-trade clause. He insisted on a full no-trade, and no opt-out because he didn’t want to go through the process of being hounded by the media about where or if he was going next. He wanted to sign somewhere to finish his career.
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/bryce-harper-contract-details-breakdown-of-the-salary-bonuses-and-perks-in-his-13-year-deal-with-the-phillies/
I think going public with a statement like this will have an adverse effect on Harper, who might now demand a trade, lowering his value even more to Stanton-Miami levels.
Y-a-n-k-e-e-s will reunite Harper and Realmuto now?
And take on that 11-year obligation along with Stanton’s and Cole’s? I don’t think so. Maybe George. Not Hal. Not with the uncertainty of what 2021 will bring.
@Marty McRae no one is trading for Harper. You can’t just outbid everyone else to sign a guy and then trade him shortly afterwards unless he largely outperforms what is expected of him, which Harper has not.
The Phillies would need to eat some of wheelers contract To get some good prospects
Definitely not. That’s a #2 or #3 pitcher right there, depending on the rotation, and the annual value of his contract isn’t onerous to a wealthy team. They’ll get an excellent return for him, no need to eat anything.
You need to take into account the buyers market. Philly is gonna get hosed.
This is worse than McCourt. It feels like Middleton is bk’d.
Fans here don’t have a clue about leverage. They have in their head what a guy is worth because the player is good and puts up good numbers. They don’t have any idea about budgets, that’s why when something happens they clearly don’t understand, they yell the owner is just being cheap!
What buyers market? All the players that have signed, have signed for more than the projections on this website.
Yep, Iverbure, and you’re the expert, obviously, because you said so. It’s actually a rumor website and I think fans here understand budgets well. They just like to hypothesize trades, and posit contractual obligations that should be acceptable to an owner worth 14 billion dollars. I don’t think that’s unreasonable, I think it’s fandom.
I agree, frequently expenses are overlooked, but can you blame fans, really? Look at the Tribe: they haven’t achieved baseball greatness since 1948, they have some of the best players in the sport right now, and they are a few pieces, albeit expensive, away from serious contention; yet, they choose to sell off their talent or let it walk away in FA without maximum return? I’d be pissed too.
@outinleftfield but a lot of players got non-tendered or had their options declined even though you could fairly argue that they were worth whatever they were projected to get in arb/the value of their options.
Iverbure, thank you–the rare intelligent comment on these boards (well, other than mine). As I mention above, most people have no basic understanding of economics.
Well…it also kind of appears that Buster got busted making stuff up.
Middleton is not ready to play with the big boys. Sell the team to someone who actually wants to win.
The MLBPA has to write in a clause where the players have to sign off on the owners, this game is getting inundated with cheapskates and get rich quick scammer-type rich people who don’t care about the players at all – for proof look at how Trout has been marketed vs the player he actually is!
Remember in the 80s and 90s when every kid had a superstar MLB poster with some cool theme about it? Those don’t exist anymore. No player gets marketed at all, MLB gets a F at this and has since the 00’s.
Dude, I have a giant Michael conforto poster taped to my wall. It doesn’t have a Mets logo on his uniform but we all know he’s a met… until he plays for the mariners next year.
From professionally-shot, artistic motifs, to bootleg blown up images, we hate to see it
I disagree. No Union should be allowed to determine the owner of a business . That is a frightening concept.
Why should the Phillies continue to spend when it clearly wasn’t working. Man you people have been duped by Scott Boras big time. Very sad actually.
Uh, the “community” determining the owner? Yeah, that’s seems like a pretty fair capitalist concept. Or, maybe it’s just communism, yep, that’s it. Sad.
@Yankee Clipper A new owner has to be approved by existing owners. Is that a pure model of capitalism at work? Or is it a group of rich people who get to determine who joins their “old boy” network? Who all then get to take advantage of monopoly control of the big leagues together. Capitalism works great for these folks until it doesn’t.
Marty McRae. The players are so under paid. LOL.
Really, it’s not MLB marketing. The game is slow for the millennials and zoomers. Been a little league coach for years and we always lose so many kids due to slow pace of play. And if you want to talk marketing, you do have a small point, but pushing more trout or Stanton or whomever makes no diff. It’s about how they can watch cord cutters (most of the people older than 80’s-90’s si poster owners) can’t see games at all. Youth participation is falling like an avalanche even before 2020, can’t imagine it comes back. Football, soccer, basketball, lacrosse (in some situations) has taken the youth market. Like generations past who loved boxing and horse racing times have moved on. I love baseball and still there are still hardcores in the younger groups but the vast majority sees it as too slow, difficult to learn right and have moved to other games or video game leagues. Unless the fundamental things that make the game what it is, are changed the youth is gone now and forever. Ever try to watch a World Series game with a 10 and under? Hours past bed time by the 5th.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2019/08/23/put-me-in-coach-youth-baseball-participation-on-the-rise/40002827/
Wish I could see. Not sure what the article says. Clips out b4 can copy and paste. Just know from actual experience and see massive drop off here in the tundra. A general note seems to be loss of players no matter what sport your playing. This is a diff generation with so many pulls other than team sports and yea this make me sad.
Wish I could see story. Cuts off short of link. Just for personal experience can say youth activity drops huge each year. No matter race or ability.
Turn off your ad blocker for that page and you can read it.
Baseball marketing players would be dumb, that’s why they don’t. It’s a local sport. I watch my team for 162 games. I can’t watch another team to that extent. You can market another teams players all you want. It won’t matter. It’s not like football where your team only plays one game a week. You have time to follow others.
Well it’s dumb to you but could generate interest among younger groups. If little Johnny keeps seeing mike trout he might be more interested. When I was growing up I wanted to see Griffey, I didn’t care about the orioles lol. I was a kid playing clinics who wanted to see the icons. So unless your teams NY or LA, your “local” team is t that thrilling really. They don’t have the star power to draw younger crowds more than likely. That’s why I agree on the marketing.
That’s your grand idea Marty?
Players can walk away come free agency and start a new league or a new career. Nobody put a gun to their head and told them to sign. Stop complaining.
Lol yes, have the inmates run the asylum. What a fantastic idea! The players, who may be w a team (or in the league) for a few years and take no risks once they sign, should approve the owners??? And people like the post! Man, the real world is gonna hurt when you enter it. I can always count on these boards for comic relief.
“Stupid. Money.” A memoir by John S. Middleton
Just “Stupid” would suffice.
Should be titled “Stupid People Spending Money”
It’s like I’m playing MLB the show right now! Sign a top free agent and then the next offseason trade him because we sucked.
Well, not because they sucked. Because they lost money. But still, not every business owner is responding this way. No way Middleton should. He doesn’t NEED to. He’s a captain in rough seas who chooses not to boost morale and chart a course for safer waters but to start pushing crew off the boat. Not a good look.
And the correction update changes all that. Turns out Middleton will not be pushing crew overboard. Nevermind…
the White Sox need 2 send a combo of;
Cease/Vaughn/Dunning, or all 3 if that’s what it takes———— NOW
No lol never
I want what he has lmao.
Then the Phillies would need to kick in $80mil Bunts…….
If the white Sox want a true number 2 sp, two of those guys listed above is fair… cease has shown no ability to pitch effectively in the majors… Vaughn is blocked… it’s not absurd… if I’m the Phillies, I’m prob looking for young MLB ready guys… only dunning fits that bill in that offer
Vaughn is not blocked. He’ll share 1B/DH with Abteu.
Any of those guys are worth more than Wheeler with that contract. The package would start with Stiever, a similar prospect and a lottery pick.
If Stiever were the headliner, I’d be in, so long as that lottery ticket’s last name isn’t Tatis. Better than the proposals I’ve heard for Snell that have both Vaughn and Stiever. Not saying the latter is an overpay, just don’t want to give up Vaughn when they can fill their needs with other trades or just FA dollars.
No, any of those guys are not worth wheeler w that contract (assuming as I said wheeler was paid down to about 4/80)… cease isn’t close… dunning projects to a 3 at most… Vaughn maybe but no, he’s not near his value yet bc he hasn’t shown anything even at upper levels of minors
Trading Vaughn for Wheeler alone would be dumb.
I’m guessing you must be white Sox fans… so dunning and a player went for one year of Lynn, who is not at the level of four years of wheeler w part of the contract paid down… can’t wait to hear your thoughts on that trade bc apparently your top prospects are untouchable, yet you want value in return
Heartbreaking as a fan to see them completely give up after coming fairly close the playoffs the last few years. I can’t deal with another rebuild and yet here we are. Wheeler was phenomenal last year.
Harper most be really disappointed as well.
Phillies need a new owner.
What a disaster actually. The Harper deal—and how it affects payroll flexibility—also rears its head here. Also not a good look for the organization, seeking a trade one year in, and sends an undesirable message to their supposed superstar (Harper).
Why are they even doing this, how much money are the owners actually “losing” here? Is it “making $20 mill profit instead of $40 mill”? Because if it is… *shakes fist at cloud*
The Phillies probably lost close to $100M last season. That’s -$100M in net income, not $100M less is revenue. While a decent amount of that loss is in non-cash expenses, it is still a staggering number. That’s why Middleton is in panic mode. You hate to see a big market team looking to slash payroll because of economic reasons versus needing to rebuild because they stink, but such are the challenges of owning a team during a pandemic. Having fans in the stands for the 2021 season is the only thing that is going to change the financial landscape of baseball. Another year of no fans (or very limited fans) is going to cause a lot of teams to have to cut as many expenses as possible just to stay solvent. Let’s hope we don’t get to that.
Very good points.
Other than the team owners themselves, no one can say for certainty if or how much a team lost. Of course revenues were down significantly, but so were expenses. Teams only had to pay for 37% of their payroll, little minor league costs, and significantly lower travel costs in 2020. I’m not suggesting that they didn’t take a hit financially, but crying poor, or suggesting they lost hundreds of millions of dollars, is probably hyperbole.
In reality, the Phillies and other MLB owners likely lost the equivalent of a month’s pay (if that) to normal, working class people. Yeah, it would hurt and we’d fall behind on some of our bills maybe, but most people wouldn’t be selling their cars, given up their internet service and acting like they’re going to be living on the street.
Where did you get that info? The Phillies said they lost $145 million in revenue, but saved 63% of their 2020 payroll. So how much did they really lose?
That means they saved $130 million on MLB salaries. Another $2-3 million on minor league players and coaches, scouts, and front office staff. Puts their actual losses at about $12-13 million.
Certainly not something that would prevent them from spending in 2021, especially when they have $70 million in new revenue coming in 2021.
The Harper contract benefits payroll flexibility because it’s spread over such a long duration. The lower AAV makes it easier to afford other players.
Revenue makes it easier to afford other players, paying Harper 25M+ over the next 11 or so years does not.
Paying him $25M a year is better than $30M.
‘Supposed superstar.’ No, just superstar. The dude is beyond an amazing talent. Just because people like yourself don’t like his personality does not change this.
He will be this decade’s Albert Pujols. Signed for what he had done already. Not for what he will do in years 5,6,7…..11. God bless him he got his money. If you are a Phillies fan, i hope you are still able to use the word “superstar” after year 4 of the deal.
Certainly a better deal than Bobby Bonilla….. lol
Not sure how you were able to make conclusions about my take on his personality, but ok. As for “supposed” I’m using it here to distinguish it from “bona fide” — and I simply don’t consider him that. And, I would add, I certainly don’t expect him to be that for anywhere near 13 years.
“He will be this decade’s Albert Pujols. Signed for what he had done already. Not for what he will do in years 5,6,7…..11. God bless him he got his money. If you are a Phillies fan, i hope you are still able to use the word “superstar” after year 4 of the deal.”
This is a horrible comparison actually. Pujols signed his SECOND mega deal with the Angels at the age of 32. Harper will be something like 38 when the 13 year deal is complete and has put up consecutive 4+ bWAR seasons in the first 2 years of the deal. Barring a catastrophic injury, players of Harper’s build and ilk usually don’t fall apart at age 29 (year 4 of the deal).
Albert Pujols is one of the greatest players of all time, to predict a similar falloff at an earlier age by a superior athlete is total folly. Just admit you hate Harper because of his hair or face or whatever and move on.
@rule5draftdodger….. lol. He will never be albert pujols. In any decade. Period. He’s never going 300/30/100 for ten straight. Not even close. He’s never winning two WS, hitting 3hr in a single World Series game. He’s never going to do any of that. The only thing they have in common is they got paid. MOST good players that are over 28 and go to free agency are paid for what they did until that point. Past performance is the main indicator on getting paid in baseball, without going to the future that is the greatest indicator. Glad you had on your Moses hat and could see the future to know when some of the greatest players would fall off.
He’s still in line to hit 500 homers and to be a future hall of famer so you’re put downs are a tad bit rediculous. So he’s not an upper echelon Hall of Famer? OK buddy.
They should be forced to sell if the owner can’t invest properly in a big market team… enough of this
Blake Snell, Sonny Gray, Zack Wheeler……Red Sox, Angels better get busy….
Rangers… come out and playaya…
“Stupid money” – a phrase forever cursed from this day forward in the annals of Baseball history.
Ha ha. Phillies can’t hire a GM if their lives depended on it!!!
Wait…
Question: The Winter Meetings are next week, and we already have a ton of rumors floating around. What is the biggest trade we see coming from the Winter Meetings? Yes, I know they are virtual.
Winter meetings started today
I would say snell gets dealt. He’s too good of a pitcher for teams not to be in on.
All depends on whether TB’s overpay demand is accepted.
Lindor.
I think springer gets signed
If only the Yankees could deal Stanton straight up for Harper!
As a Yankee fan I would do that in a second. Philly fans wouldn’t even though they are saving money by doing so. The Stanton contract will be an albatross on the Yankees payroll. If only they would have told Jeter thanks but no thanks even though they were getting an mvp for decent but not top prospects! I didn’t like it then and despise it now.
Yankees need Wheeler way more than Harper.
As a Yankees fan, I would take Wheeler’s contract for a bucket of balls. We also know he has the stomach needed to pitch in NY.
@NY_Yankee: do we really know that he has the ‘stomach needed to pitch in NY’? He was barely above average with the Mets and missed plenty of time due to injury. I’m sure I’m in the minority, but I see Wheeler as regressing next season to the 2/3-level starter he was throughout his Mets tenure.
20/20 man. Remember he vetoed trades to SF and STL so he was a desired player then. No one expects backend contract years to work out. It was win-now move which hasn’t worked out so far.
But say it with me… LOLPhils.
PhiLOLies
Huh. I wonder if The Giants will come calling. They have been looking for pitching, and I think it’s never sat right with the organization that they let Wheeler go and that he bloomed into a star. I wonder how much it might cost to buy him back.
Giants are a great matchup for Wheeler, depending on how much salary the Phillies want to eat. Giants have plenty of trade options either way.
That could be a nice fit… I want him back on Mets but no shot at that
would love to see Zack back with the Gs. 4 years for a pitcher at approx. $25/yr certainly is not Zaida’s M.O., but the Gs rotation is paper thin and they have a ton of $ coming off the books next year with virtually no obligations beyond that. G’s prospects are only going to be able to fill out so much of the rotation in the next few years. they are going to have to go out and get veteran arms. Cueto is gone next year. Gausman might sign for more than the current year. They need an anchor.
If the Gs even get 2 great seasons out of Zach and then two above average it would be worth it. If the Gs take on all of the salary, then I assume the top 8 or so prospects are untouchable. 4 years of Zack at $96M or 3 years of Ordozzi at $39M? If the Gs rotation already was decent I would go with the latter; but Zack is a bold move that would get the Gs into serious wild-card contention until the real wave of reinforcements arrives in 2022-24
Haha, of course they are! They severely overpaid for a severely overrated pitcher, so I’m shocked they’re “open to offers”
You talking about Arrieta?
I think Wheeler reached that point of so many people calling him overrated that he became underrated. Had a great 2018 and 2019 with the Mets and people were still saying that he isn’t worth what the Phils gave him.
Wheeler was great last year.
John Felony Fraud Middleton is actively destroying the Phillies. He has absolutely no idea what he’s doing even though he wears the big boy pants in the franchise. Sell the team Johnny boy!!!! Go back to selling cancer sticks
It’s pretty easy to bully around workers and people without cash in the cancer merchant game, but when everyone has resources, you quickly figure out who knows how to run their businesses.
Based on the coronavirus bailouts flying around, a lot of business owners should be taking financial literacy courses before opening.
Phillies are nearing that point of being stuck in a limbo state of being stuck as a 70-80 win team. They have a decent offense, but Wheeler and Nola are their only two reliable pitchers. They don’t have enough of a farm to pursue big time trade targets like Lance Lynn, Joe Musgrove, Sonny Gray, Blake Snell or even possibly Kyle Hendricks. Their best option right now if they don’t trade Wheeler is to sign Bauer, McCann and at least 2 relief pitchers with at least one being one of the big 2 on the market (Yates and Hendiks).
And since they don’t have the financial flexibility, they can’t go the FA route either. They seem to – like you said – have fallen into a trench of mediocrity that they’ll need to dig themselves out of somehow. I know one thing is for sure: I don’t know who would want to be the GM of this team…
It also dosen’t help they struggle at developing and drafting. I thought the JTR deal back in 2018-2019’s off season was awful for the Phils. Sixto pitching in a playoff game was the nail in the coffin for that trade.
Yeah, I thought that was an ugly trade for them when it happened too, but people love to use prospects like pawns in their conversations. If you like a prospect it’s: ” He’s gonna be a stud someday, and I wouldn’t even trade him for Lindor.”, or if your team is trading for the prospects, it’s: “You can’t overvalue your prospects, so trade Waters for Lynn already” lol.
Hey, I got an idea for my write-up. I have 15 players that would all be in one article if I wrote it as it is right now. Should I split it into 3 groups, and do an article for each (starters, relievers, hitters)?
I think that would make it easier to compare players, putting them into similar catergories. But on the topic of prospects, there’s a difference between overvaluing your prospects and trading prospects wisely/unwisley. If you already have a strong core of home grown players at the major league level, then trading a prospect then is wise. The Phillies at the time when they traded Sixto only had Aaron Nola as their lone prospect who they drafted and devleoped in the rotation. In the line-up, they only had Hoskins, Cesar Hernandez and Scott Kingery. The bigger problem was the JTR only had 2 years of control left.
And wasn’t that the off-season that J.P Crawford got selected by the M’s?
This also makes me wonder how “trade candidate” type prospects like Stott feel coming up through the Phil’s system right now. Not only do they not have a good development history, they also have trouble building a team. Harper is probably angry right now, but he’s set for life with the contract he has. What about the prospects who know their career teeter on the development of this franchise. Idk, it’d be scary if I were there.
Crawford was traded with Carlos Santana to the M’s for Segura. While I understand getting Segura, it still makes so sense as to why they decided to sign Santana. Their current state really reminds me of the 2016-2018 Pirates. That medicoer state where you’re not bad, but you’re not good either. At least the Pirates knew how to get players to the major leagues but developing them more once they got there was a real challenge. Guys like Cole and Glasnow were outstanding in the minors but struggled with the Pirates in the majors. Then you get to situations like the godawful Archer trade where you bet on one hot streak to carry you.
Oh, I thought Crawford was selected in the rule 5. I totally forgot about that trade. Idk why I thought that though…
Well they got the value from JTR they wanted, and have to give to get, so it looks like Sixto will pan out (we have to remember the majority don’t)… but Hoskins regressed, kingery didn’t develop, and the BP has been awful… if any of those three work out, they would have been a playoff team… and I hate the Phillies but it’s true
Hoskins was pretty solid in 2020. I wouldn’t call that a regression.
Phillies are definitley the next team that shows that payroll and trading for big time talent doesn’t mean anything if you don’t know how to draft and develop prospects to major league players. You can go out and sign Harper, McCutchen, Wheeler, trade for Realmuto yet if very few home grown players make up your core, then you’re not going to win.
Well, if your homegrown players fail, as prospects often do…
Prospects fail, but you need to at least have enough to build a core with. We’ve seen it many times over and over again where a team overhauls their roster through big trades and signings just for them to finish with an average record. The LA Angels, Padres, Marlins, Phillies in 2014, 2015 Nationals, 2018 Giants, 2015 White Sox all tried to do and look where it landed them. You build through the farm and supplement with free agents and trades. If you do just one or the other, you’re not going to go very far, more so with the latter.
Seems like J.T. is gone for sure, Mets seem focused on McCann…I’m starting to think the Jays have a legit shot! Why the Phillies brought in Harper makes less sense bye the day
I hate to defend Middleton, especially now, but you can’t judge pre-pandemic decisions in a pandemic world. No owner was prepared for this. The Phillies were splurging when the pandemic hit. Now they have to deal with the loss of revenue. I still think Middleton is being far too cheap here though. You can’t trade away your core when they’re in their prime. The time to compete is now.
There are also lawsuits pending for every team against insurance companies in attempt to recoup some losses. I think it’s preemptive and silly to publicly assume that they won’t receive any compensation. I know Middleton hasn’t said it but it sends a terrible message to your own players.
I don’t think they’ll get a penny of that claim, it’s bad business either way really. If they get it, and still dump everyone, it’s just another example of a billionaire hoarding their money while crying poor
@Von True, I’m sure they expected ticket sales and marketing opportunities to sky rocket with Harper.
If he trades them, he’ll get pennies on the dollar. Those contracts aren’t so bad if there are butts in the seats. I don’t know when this all will end and go back to normal, but I’d be very surprised if by the end of next year, there wasn’t at least partial capacity back.
God, sports in this city are so depressing. And, Middleton, congrats on taking the cake. Now, please, sell.
Why would anyone help them with the stupid position they put themselves in?
Because Wheeler is still a top 3 starter.
Top 3 starter? I think you mean top 3 in a rotation
I imagine you mean Top 3 on their team or rotation and not the league. If you meant the latter, that’s laughable. Nobody considers Wheeler a Top 3 starter in the league.
Certainly not top 3, but he placed 12th in CYA voting, so he’s good enough to be the ace on some teams, number two on quite a few. He limits HRs, has developed good control, and his FIP is close enough to ERA that it doesn’t seem like a fluke. Unfortunately, no playoff experience, so we don’t know how he’d do there. I wouldn’t mind him going to the White Sox, provided the return package wasn’t heavy. Vaughn and Kopech definitely off the table. Cease, Dunning, or Stiever could headline the return package, depending on what else Philly wanted.
i dont think people make trades out of goodwill
This is exactly the kind of situation that makes free agency completely tilt the pinball machine. Baseball salaries are essentially a pyramid scheme. You bid up the price to impossibly high levels and then you watch the house of baseball cards collapse.
A completely different approach might be to let everyone past the age of 27 become a free agent. This would replace the service time and enable players to be free agents in their prime if they so desired.
I’m not saying this solves anything, it just creates some different incentives for teams.
Trade Harper for Stanton and yanks cover both contracts
Only if we could somehow get Miggy involved! Ha…but, for real.
LOL
This is a false story planted by MacPhail to try to make fans believe they really lost a lot of money, to excuse not resigning jt. They will later say, oh other teams asked about him but we said no, we really care about the fans, aren’t we great!. The organization is owned and run by greedy buffoons who have no intention of making any effort to improve the team until they are again making hundreds of millions in profits with a horrible product.
Why doesn’t Middleton just sell the team? I don’t see many other owners complaining as much as he. is. The stupid money comment was just the beginning to this nonsense.. Maybe it’s time for them to cease operations if its that bad and let the powers to be, give Philadelphia a fresh ownership with a new base of players. .
Not many people can afford a baseball franchise in the middle of a pandemic. And that’s assuming Middleton even wanted to sell. The Mets Cohen situation was extremely rare.
The super wealthy have profited during the pandemic.
Not necessarily true. Depends what the business is. Plenty of millionaires took huge hits.
Talking about people with enough money to own an MLB team on their own or by split ownership.. Billionaires, not millionaires.. They have overall increased their wealth during the pandemic.
Baseball team owners increased their wealth? Not likely.
643 billionaires have gotten $1 trillion richer since the beginning of April.
Middleton’s family made their money in tobacco, then he sold the family business for $2.9 billion back in 2007. These days his job is giving his money away. He gives $30 million a year to end homelessness as well as donating to schools and other charitable ventures.
These days his job is giving his money away.
———————————————
I thought you were going to refer to the Arrieta contract.
Lol. Nice one. @JoeBrady
LOL. Good one. Yeah, that was charity for sure.
It’s great that he is “giving away” his money, but let’s not ignore that there are tons of tax implications, so it isn’t 100% out of the goodness of his heart.
Wheeler to the yanks!!
Seems as though a market correction has taken place in the city of brotherly love…
Come to think of it, I think if possible they should trade the contracts (No one is taking on Harpers) they can, play the prospects that are MLB ready (Bohm, Howard, Medina, Moniak, Quinn, Maton) as we speak to season/evaluate them, & do a semi-tank job like Boston did in 2020 to “earn” the opportunity to select higher picks in each round come the 2022 draft all the while putting yourself in the best position to take advantage of Harpers last 3-4 years in his “prime” being his age 30-34 seasons.
Otherwise this last 2 years was all for naught and the same will go for the next decade!
Just ask Angels fans in the Pujols era…
What a pathetic run franchise. How did you go from “spending stupid money” to cutting costs everywhere? Pandemic, I get it but every team went through it. Absolute frauds.
Braves get Harper and all his contract
Philly gets Riley and Ender
Haha
Who knew that John Middleton was related to Fred Wilpon?
For all the talk of how bad the Wilpons were, the Mets never had to trade away top talent for financial reasons. They may not have been in on as many FAs as fans would’ve liked, but this Middleton situation is far worse IMO. Again, nothing official happened yet, but if they trade Wheeler and start a full rebuild aftre promising to spend, I think it’s far worse than the Wilpons.
As a Mets fan I agree
Wilpons are worst imo. I promise you the wilpons would be doing the same thing after a covid season. Middleton never did this before this year I think. Wilpons where by far the worst owners in baseball.
Name one good player the Mets traded away for financial reasons. I don’t recall a single one.
Name one the Phillies have???? They haven’t. They will bc of covid just like the Mets would have if the wilpons where still the owner.
Right. In my post I call that out. This is just theoretical. Of Middleton starts trading stars for salary relief, I’d consider him a worst owner than the Wilpons. Fortunately this story is fake.
The Mets gave up Kelenic+ (who is going to be a top 3 finisher in ROY voting whenever SEA decides to start his clock) because they weren’t willing to eat any significant money for that bum Cano. Ignoring it’s a horrible deal and they got hosed, the reason why they moved Bruce & Swarzak was also for $ reasons. The Mets had to balance the $ out because they were walking a tightrope in regard to their payroll. Giving up Dunn, who should be a servicable backend pitcher killed the Mets’ depth too, even if he hasn’t pitched well for SEA lately.
The Blue Jays should be in on Wheeler. They need to get Ryu some help at the top of the rotation.
If the Phillies eat somewhere around half the contract then ya give them a catching prospect not named Kirk or Janson a pitching prospect like Zeuch and a lottery ticket prospect
Of course it depends on the amount of money they jettison but I can’t imagine the prospect price would be very big at all if they are looking purely for salary relief in this situation.
Yeah. It seems foolish. You would be trading low.
If your farm produced and you didn’t have to fill every position with an expensive FA things would be different. Klentak should never work in a management position again.
How many more teams to start dumping salary? I could see Padres, Rockies, Diamondbacks, Pirates, Brewers, Cubs, marlins, Rays, Orioles, Indians, Tigers, Seattle, Oakland, and Texas maybe even more. All the teams that don’t get revenue sharing for 2020 may try to dump salary. If that the case MLB player’s salaries will plummet. Phillies probably were never going to sign Realmuto.
Sandy Alderson and Steve Cohen on line 1
What has happened to this franchise? On another note I had no idea wheeler put up 2.9 WAR last season
Wow. I’m not going to lie, this is surprising. As always though, it’s probably just kicking the tires first
Sorry Philly but you ain’t the Yanks or Dodgers
It’s such a gut wrenching time to be a Phillies fan…This feels like another rebuild is coming. I don’t know if I can truthfully go through another one. I was hoping for at least one playoff run. D@mn man… Wtf?
As a baseball fan, it sucks to hear these rumors as Philly is one of MLB’s biggest markets. Trading Wheeler does nothing for the current state of the team besides the owner pocketing some salary savings. Just blow the whole thing up since he’s going to hear it from the fans (and Harper for sure) anyway if Wheeler gets shipped out.
And I thought the Mets had a bad GM (before they fired him)
I guess someone needs to set up a GoFundMe page for Middleton.
Or is it possible they are realizing how mediocre the team is and adding another FA won’t help. Trying to actually build some quality depth seems like a good idea.
People say that like they aren’t trying to build talent from within. They are, and it hasn’t worked. They’ve been failing at that for decades.
Man, this gives me hope that the Indians could get a boatload for Carrasco and his team friendly deal……..with options.
It’s funny that wheeler knew the Mets wouldn’t resign him because they were the Mets and wouldn’t spend the money and is now in the same situation with the Phillies not spending. The irony is thick.
At this point, I don’t blame them. I don’t think it’s intended as a “fire sale”; on the point of most here are thinking. 2021 is still all but certain. Who really knows though?
AND THERE IT IS. Lots of you seem surprised. Heh. You shouldn’t be. This is exactly what Middleton’s been telegraphing for months. McPhail even said they’d probably be more likely to subtract than to add.
They’re not going to spend. They’re not even going to pretend to try to compete. You’re looking at a last place team, folks. For half a decade at the very least.
Stupid money, indeed.
In a way it’s actually a good sign that they know they have to start over. There really should be know untouchables on this team. None.
“No” untouchables … sorry
Too bad he sucks and is owed almost 100 million lol
Would Gleyber Torres and Schmidt get you Wheeler?
I imagine Schmidt alone gets you him. That kind of contract, going into 2021.. yikes! I believe everyone in the league (w/ the exception of LAD, NYY, NYM) is in the “cost shaving” boat. Covid-19, is the only thing that makes this contract bad IMO.
Why would NYY do that when they can just sign Bauer?
That’s a tough one. If I had to chose between Wheeler or Bauer, I’d go Wheeler. Mostly for financial reasons. But, if I had to give up Schmidt for Wheeler, or keep Schmidt and add Bauer.. I would probably go latter. But, there is something about Bauer, that would make me feel apprehensive signing. I really don’t think I would want Trevor on my team. Heck of an athlete though!
@lowereastsider
Because the NYY can’t just go sign Bauer. They have Stanton and Cole. This is Hal, not George, and even the NYY are affected by the pandemic. The NYY are NOT signing Bauer. They aren’t doing ANY 9-figure deals this year. Wheeler would be an extremely borderline deal for them.
I doubt Cashman has much interest in bringing Bauer’s “personality” to the Yankees.
Yes, and there’s the history between Bauer and Cole. I’ve read that the NYY FO has said that they “wouldn’t do that to Cole.”
why in the world would the Yankees do that???
The guys truly delusional if he thinks the Yankees are not only going to trade Gleyber and then “throw in” the one of the Yankees top pitching prospects too boot…..for Wheeler?
Slider….Why would you even suggest that the Yankees would be willing to start a trade with Gleyber unless you were getting at least a stud #2 back in return? And then you include one of the Yankees top pitching prospects (even though he has limited experience) to boot? And for Wheeler? Pass whatever you’re smoking over…
Despite possessing legit talent, this Phillies squad always seemed a bit lackluster. To me, they jumped their competitive timeline early, with the Segura and Realmuto trades, which in turn, helped deplete long-term future and cost controlled assets. Not to say they were terrible trades, rather, maybe unnecessary to a degree at the time. Idk.
I don’t believe Philly needs to “restart” but shaking things up some could be wise.
The Segura trade resulted from the ill advised Santana signing.
When has Olney been correct on one of these speculation articles? He’s irrelevant and posting completely off base clickbait again.
Right on cue we get confirmation that Olney is full of it.
If you think Middleton and MacPhail have more credibility than Olney you need to either start paying attention or stop talking. Because when they deal Wheeler for a bad reliever and a fourth string catcher–and that’s what’s going to happen, make no mistake–this comment is going to make you look like one busload of an idiot.
Then answer my first question with a link to an article where Olney speculation turned out to be right.
Middleton had done what he said he would do. He spent money and traded for big time talent.
Hahah. Wow. Props to you for calling it out earlier. Pretty amazing for Olney to be so blatantly incorrect here.
Philly fans unfortunately you have to face the fact your team will be irrelevant for the next 6 years just like the pirates.
Actually the pirates will reemerge before you do
How exactly is that a fact?
Middleton and MacPhail have less credibility than Rob Manfred. Their denials are nice and everything but there’s literally not a word that could come out of their *stupid money* mouths that I’d trust as far as I could throw the Phanatic.
If I’m angels I’d much rather have this guy than bauer. Snell or wheeler should be the targets with adding someone like kluber on lower level contract. Then trading heaney or canning for quality young bullpen arms.
Well after 150+ overreactions in the comment section (including my own), it seems like the story was completely incorrect, and the Phillies have no intention of trading Wheeler. Props to trade rumors for including the update.
Phew.
So first they are not going to bring a new GM and now they are. Next, they are trading Wheeler and now they’re not.
It’s started with, we’re spending stupid money, then we’re not.
The messaging coming out of the Phillies organization is not good.
I don’t disagree, but this Wheeler story seems completely fabricated and did not come from the FO.
Moral of the story: Don’t listen to any Phillies rumors. Only pay attention when an actual move is made.
Sounds like Buster needs to stop using whatever source gave him this false report.
More like Phillies are walking it back after massive public backlash. Total “test the waters” move by the ownership that flopped.
This feels like a floated idea from management that got crushed, so they are walking it back by the owner denying it. It’s not like the Phillies have been talked about as a major playing in free agency. Instead, they have been signaling for months that they won’t be spending money. Given that, it is much more likely this was a floated idea that got shot down instead of some unfounded rumor that the entire FO and ownership would never say.
I recognize this pattern in part because the WIlpons have been doing it for years. They float an idea and then deny everything when people call them idiots for considering what was included in the floated idea.
What happened to the money received with the new cable deal Comcast or what ever its called now, gave them?
The Phillies Comcast deal starts to increase their revenue substantially in 2021. They also get a huge chunk of new revenue from the 3 new national TV deals.
Thanks, so maybe Middleton is slowing spending until the deal kicks all the way in, this would make sense in the Covid era.
I thought that deal was signed in 2014 or 2015. Why would it start to increase in 2021?
We should’ve known this was wrong right from the start… because Darkside didn’t comment on it.
I trust Buster Olney more than Middleton or MacPhail on these matters.
IMO, writers make up stories all the time. Anytime the story starts with ‘inside sources’, start to question it.
“insiders” my you know what
how about we not overreact until the team actually goes out and says it? its easy for an “insider” to fake a story. Wheeler, Gray, Snell…none of them are moving unless their teams get blown away until they’d be foolish not to move them.
Wheeler isn’t getting back what snell is. Grey and wheeler won’t cost anyone’s top prospects.
I don’t think DarkSide suggested Wheeler, Gray and Snell would all get the same thing, just that they wouldn’t move unless there was an overpay.
It will depend on how much salary the Phillies eat.
What?? Fake news?!! Is this CNN?! Lol
I dont buy the Phillies saying they aren’t open to it. Sure they are. It’s a massive contract and we are fighting a global pandemic. But that doesn’t mean they are actively trying to trade him. I mean heck, everyone is tradable regardless of what management offers. I love Acuna and the Braves would never admit to a willingness to trade him. But if the angels came in and offered trout, eat his contract, and a top prospect, that’s clearly fantasy world offer and the Braves better accept lol
Cease, Stiever and Adolfo for Wheeler? who says No.
White Sox. In a normal market, maybe, but Reindorf’s going to try to find better deals. He won’t pay normal salary for someone plus two of his best pitching prospects. Don’t mind at all the inclusion of Adolfo, although, as someone who doesn’t really follow the Phillies, do they have a need at OF?
Reinsdorf ok’ed the pursuit of Wheeler last year and the Sox were rumored to have offered a higher contract than Phillies but Wheeler preferred the East Coast and took less. Wouldn’t see him saying no now if it gives the Sox a formidable rotation (Gio, Wheeler, Keuchel, Kopech. Dunning) and actually costs less than he was willing to outlay last year. As for Cease, he would almost have to be in the deal for Phillies, Stiever is expendable with Crochet, Thompson, Dalquist and Kelley all in the pipeline and Adolfo would be a quality third piece (like Dunning was for Sox in Eaton trade) that would be depth for Phillies with lottery ticket potential. I think it works for both sides and still allows Sox to add OF this offseason via FA to fill Mazara hole.
Did Olney just pull this rumor out of thin air, or are the Phils in damage control after seeing all the angry fallout?
I think they are hoping they can weasel out of bidding on Realmuto by leaking “we’re broke” stories and then denying them.
I think it can be a little bit of both. A team probably came to the Phils and said something like, ‘what would it take to get Wheeler?” –and Buster Olney ran with that. Technically, that’s trade talk, but there is a big difference between THIS and the Phillies actively trying to trade Wheeler. I don’t think they are actively trying to do anything, really, let alone trade their top FA from just one season ago.
Haha now they’re walking it back after public backlash. These owners will try ANYTHING….
What is wrong with this organization? As bad as the pandemic is, how many other MLB owners are crying the blues as much as the Phillies are doing? Right now they are scoring a fat zero on the public relations scale.
Moving Wheeler is plan B if they can’t move Segura, which means they’re likely willing to move them together.
Kidding. Kind of.
Something tells me Wheeler will be getting a sweet Edible Arrangement or a cookie cake from the Middletons tomorrow, while Bryce may need a new phone.
Don’t do it Padres. A hard pass, waste of prospects for a bad contract and questionable arm as far as injury history.
If the Padres are going to go after someone, go after Snell.
Beware though, TB taking a long look at SD’s farm for a possible trade may be a fat kid in a candy store. I can’t imagine the package they could come up with, though SD has plenty to lose and keep rolling. Jealous.
Will Joe Want to stay there as a manager if they dump all the premium players
Does Joe have any choice? It’s mot like he did anything special last year.
Why would Realmuto consider signing with the Phillies knowing they don’t intend to compete?
Sometimes people choose money or the love of a team/city over winning. Trout gave a substantial discount and gave up a realistic shot at winning to stay with the Angels. I used to feel bad for him, but not since he signed that deal. Wheeler gave up a few million more and (more apparent in hindsight) a better chance of winning because his fiancee wanted to stay close to family. People all have their reasons; it just depends on what they prioritize.
1. This story was vehemently denied by the Phillies FO. So we shouldn’t take it too seriously.
2. Players determine their livelihood with more than just competing in mind.
3. Phillies may still compete. See #1.
4. I doubt the Phillies will be making a serious offer to JTR.
Thank you. Far too many hysterical Philly fans in here.
Money dude
Trading Bryce Harper for Chris Davis will save them some money!
Who’s lying then?
Could be no one. Far often than not “reliable” sources get things wrong. The idea of trading Wheeler now seems ludicrous, so I think someone just got it wrong.
While every player is conceivably available for the right price there is a difference in speculation and the team flat out saying player X is available.
Olney is doing what a lot of these reporters do this time of year (Joel Sherman is a prime example) and essentially making up stories to write a column
As always, the Phills jumped the gun on the Wheeler signing. They should have focused more on building a core of talent before spending money on a 3rd starting pitcher. Now they’re pressured to spend more on free agents (regardless of fit) because they don’t have enough talent or depth to contend. Wheeler was/is a better fit for a contending club (like the White Sox, Twins, Padres, possibly the Jays).
I’ve said something similar before. They way over-jumped the gun in general. It started by adding Santana, instead of moving Hoskins to 1st, but that only cost money.
But trading Crawford for Segura, then following that up with the JTR trade were major mistakes. Had they done neither trade, their field team would be:
Alfaro, Hoskins, Kingery, Crawford, Bohm,
Their rotation would be Nola, Sanchez, Spencer & Eflin.
That’alone would rack up a decent number of wins, but more importantly, that alone would also represent a payroll of almost nothing. Imagine having those 9 players, and having maybe another $180M to add an SP, 3 OFs, and 3-4 RPs?
@JoeBrady that team you listed is not impressive and would be far worse than their current roster was the last 2 seasons. Let’s not anoint Sanchez when he hasn’t even played half a season yet.
Payroll wise, yes it’s nice, but the Phillies were rebuilding for a number of years until they decided to jump on some FAs. I don’t think they jumped the gun early. I think their homegrown players they were relying on never amounted to anything.
Phillies are cutting employee payroll as well. I expect them to reboot the payroll completely. They have shelled out big money recently and still haven’t finished above .500 in long time. Time to cut bait and rebuild.
“If they offered Babe Ruth, I would not trade him”
Folks, this is why the Phillies are the great dumpster fire they truly are.
If they dug up Babe Ruth and he was in his prime,YOU’D TRADE FOR HIM.
To be fair, George Herman “Babe” Ruth, Jr. would be turning 125 before the 2021 season and is also quite dead.
I’m guessing he wouldn’t bring back a lot in trade. Very slow…
OUCH… major fail on Buster Olney’s part on this “rumor”. He must have been hearing voices (again).
Olney works for espn which is owned by disney.disney has no reporters/journalists on any of it’s platforms.they they are propagandists who just create news.
The Babe is dead. He really should consider that deal.
Glad to see that door slammed shut. For fans and for Wheeler.
I do not believe John Middleton. He’s just your average greedy rich man, and if you don’t just assume he’s lying as a matter of course you haven’t been paying attention.
I’ll believe they’re not trading Wheeler when I see him pitching in a Phillies uniform in a regular season game. Until then, there’s no way I’m giving Middleton the benefit of the doubt.
I mean he was pretty strong with his denial. He’d have 0 credibility if he backed away from that. I think this is just a case of a reporter getting a story wrong. It happens.
Or, it’s a case where his interim GM is simply doing his job assessing the market. There can be two truths here. I doubt both Olney and Rosenthal both got it wrong.
Or its a case of some other teams saying they asked about Wheeler and the reporter not mentioning that they were rebuffed. Olney is a hack, so not out of character for him to leave half the story out to get more attention.
Well seeing as Babe Ruth has been dead since 1948 that’s a smart non trade there.
Agreed, a smidge past his prime.
Too bad on the non-trade. I was hoping Dipoto could get Wheeler for the Mariners. He’d probably fall way short of his contract in 2024, the final year of his contract.
I wouldn’t want babe Ruth either…. he’s dead.
I don’t think that would go well
If there were to be a rebuild, Harper’s contract would just have to go. The man has an NTC and no opt outs, so what do you do? You could try and rebuild WITH him but man that would suck having a good chunk of your resources devoted to Harper. Like a mini Trout situation.
On the other hand, rebuilding just might get Harper on board with being moved out. Any other market I would say Harper is worth what he is being paid. Would probably cost them a lot to try and trade him.
Then there’s the fan reaction. Go ahead and tell the Philly faithful you are going to rebuild..again. Piss off THAT fan base and you may need to hide out at Norad for a few years.
The real issue with trading Harper is his trade value. Philly offered him way more $ than everyone else. And it ain’t like he was some unproven guy when they signed him.
And as far as the fan reaction, in order to be a good GM or PBO you have to completely tune that out.
I think Harper stays only because he has marketability. He sells a ton of merch. Wheeler is not as marketable.
Of course they would not trade him for Babe Ruth–his body probably would not hold up at this point, being as he is dead and all.
I don’t believe the FO at all. Wheeler is very good, but not a franchise-changer, and almost everyone can be had w the right trade.
I did not murder him!!
ah, false narratives are great
After reading the Onley piece, it does seem like a false narrative. His article basically says the team is calling other franchises and saying they lost so much money last year that they have to trade Wheeler. Regardless of how much money they lost (and I do believe they lost a lot), no team representative is going to call other teams and tell them they need to trade a player due to financial concerns. That completely ruins any trade value you could get back for him. How does continue to post garbage like this and get away with it?
They lost a reported $150 to 200 million.
Olney was not the only person to report this. It was reported a day earlier on Twitter by someone who has connections to the Phillies. Olney reporting only add some more credibility to the story.
It was said that they were shopping them quietly. Maybe reaching out to a few select clubs to gauge interest.
I think there truth to this rumor. The public crying of losing money last year, reports Segura is being shipped, they just payed off 80 employees (savings of some $8 million) the day before thanksgiving.
Moving these players is purely a financial move to recoup some of the 2020 loses and not a baseball decision.
Oh, it was on Twitter, it must be true
It doesn’t make it true and the guy took some heat for it but he was then backed up by the Buster Olney story the following day. Followed up by Passan stating three execs he spoke to also confirmed he was being shopped.
Ken Rosenthal also confirmed the Phillies were having conversations about Wheeler. It’s not difficult to imagine a scenario where their interim GM is having general exploratory conversations, or simply listening to other teams interest in all players. Teams do that all the time. It’s part of the role of a GM. As it might lead somewhere interesting. Middleton’s seemingly unhinged response is what’s more interesting. Is he unaware of how this process works, or is he such a control freak that his GM can’t even conduct normal exploratory conversations without fear his owner will explode?
The Phillies were quoted on this site as saying they lost $145 million. Came straight from the horses mouth.
What a poop show
So, the Phillies are not accepting deceased Hall of Famers in exchange for Zack Wheeler. Shrewd team there in Philly…..
really only had to say it wasn’t true
continuing to protest w the Babe Ruth comment makes it look worse
and that’s just absurd anyway
he’s not a once in a lifetime talent and the contract is stupid
they’d dump him in the right scenario
Middleton, McFail, and Klentak are all terds.
Middleton talks a good game but the one year he loses money he is crying the blues.
I don’t know…are we talking Babe Ruth’s corpse or a clone of him, like Boba Fett?
Either way, I’d at least be interested.
Babe Ruth could not keep up with today’s pitching
Why are my posts disappearing? I did not troll or say anything remotely controversial. Sheesh getting annoying. I literally said I don’t think wheelers contract is absurd.
Of course they wouldn’t trade Wheeler for Babe Ruth. Babe is dead.
Middleton’s denial seems a bit over the top. Why would he be involved on this level? He should free his front office to *explore* all trade possibilities they believe will help the team. He can have final say, but for the most part he should set them free to look at all options.
Phillies literally dont have a front office rn. They have an acting GM and a lame duck POBO
It’s likely a situation where interim GM Ned Rice is simply doing what any GM should be doing, which is listening to offers. Never say no. If something really interesting pops, Rice goes back to Middleton. His extreme overreaction is odd. From the outside looking in, the Phillies seem dysfunctional.
One thing is for certain, Phillie fans, of which I am one, are not in the mood for another rebuild. 2020 put us all in a bad mood about a lot of things, and baseball owners losing money is not something we’re losing sleep over.
Phillies need to pray that Bohm and Spencer Howard are for real. Lots of money came off the books after 2020, so spend that on bullpen arms and a CF. The rest of the line up, and by that I mean a line up sans Realmuto and Didi, isn’t great, but it’s not that bad.
They’ll score runs, and with a top four of Nola, Wheeler, Eflin and Howard heading the rotation, if the bullpen is genuinely improved, the Phils should be in contention.
Segura (SS) doesn’t get a lot of love, but he’s a decent player. Cutch (LF) showed in 2020 that he can still be a contributor. Kingery (2B) can’t possible be any worse than he was in 2020. Harper (RF), Hoskins (1B), Bohm (3B) round out a decent line up.
Pick up a veteran catcher to share duties with Knapp. If they are successful in finding a CF (Pillar wouldn’t be too expensive.) and the bullpen is addressed properly (Hand, Bradley, Treinan to name a few), we could be a very solid team in 2021.
Dear Philadelphia Phillies, Please hire me to head your communications / public relations department. I guarantee, stuff like this would not happen. I would make sure the Phillies looked like they had a vision and a plan for the future,
Enough with the “Babe Ruth is dead” comments. Clearly Middleton’s intent with that comment was to shoot down Buster Olney’s report that he was actively trying to trade Zack Wheeler, not inform us that he wouldn’t trade him for Babe Ruth. And his point is well taken.
Middleton trying too hard to deny this, Wheeler’s getting dealt lol
Well, Babe Ruth is dead, so he hasn’t really said anything to change the narrative. Switch it to Trout, and he’s saying something (and would likely be murdered by Phillies fans)
I’m late to the party..I long ago stopped giving credence to anything Buster writes..Zero credibility..
Next, as a Phan, I would have heartburn if they did another rebuild at this point..
Losing both J T and DeeDee will take a lot of offense out of the lineup..It is difficult to see that pen being as bad again as it was..they are going to go with Howard and Eflin in the rotation.. I’m not a Kingery Phan and Rhys better figure it out….
I’m not proposing trades or signings…I only play a GM on my computer (*_^)