10:45 pm: A trade does appear to be on the horizon, potentially as soon as tomorrow, per Jason Mackey (via Twitter). By all accounts, nothing has been finalized. The Pirates are said to be looking for high-ceiling prospects, even if that means taking players who are further away from reaching the Majors.
8:45 pm: The Yankees are indeed one of the teams talking to the Pirates about Taillon, tweets MLB Insider Jon Heyman. MLB.com’s Mark Feinsand (via Twitter) goes as far as to say they “appear to be emerging as the frontrunner.” The Yankees are not the only team involved, however, as the Pirates have offers from multiple teams, adds Jason Mackey of PGSportsNow. Taillon has two years of control remaining.
2:23 pm: Joe Musgrove now gets his paychecks from the San Diego Padres, and Josh Bell his from the Washington Nationals, so it’s only natural that someone step into the void as the “next Pirates player to be traded.” According to MLB.com’s Mark Feinsand (via Twitter), right-hander Jameson Taillon is in the proverbial on-deck circle. Feinsand and MLB.com’s Adam Berry hear that Jameson could be moved as soon as this weekend.
When Taillon made his debut as a 24-year-old in 2016, he and then-rotation-mate Gerrit Cole represented a promising core that was meant to build on the success of a 98-win 2015 team. That future never quite came to be, of course, as the Pirates fell back to the basement of the NL Central and now face yet another organizational rebuild. From that perspective, trades of the roster’s veterans are borderline inevitable. Still, a Taillon trade at this juncture is not without its complications, given his uncertain status returning from Tommy John surgery. Taillon went under the knife in August 2019, missing the entire 2020 season. It was the second Tommy John surgery of his career.
Taillon’s one full season came in 2018 when he made 32 starts and logged 191 innings with a 3.20 ERA/3.46 FIP, 22.8 percent strikeout rate, 5.9 percent walk rate, and 46.2 percent walk rate. That’s the version of Taillon that will stick in the heads of opposing teams as they consider acquiring the 29-year-old. Generally speaking, Taillon brings better-than-average strikeout rates, near-elite walk rates, and a career-average 85 FIP-. Though expectations should be tempered to reflect his injury status, it’s fair to hope that Taillon might again provide mid-rotation-or-better production for a contender.
The Yankees were linked to Taillon earlier this offseason and could still be a potential landing spot. Of course, it would not be hard to find a team in need of a starting pitcher – even one coming off his second TJ surgery. Given the caution with which most teams are approaching increasing workloads for 2021, a rehabbing hurler like Taillon may benefit from a smoother transition back to action, as he would not be expected to post a 200-inning season out of the blocks.
I’m happy that Ben Cherington actuall has a plan in place. For years under NH, it felt like the Bucs were stuck in limbo of being a mediocer 70-80 win team with no direction. I think BC has done well so far as the new GM, but idk if trading Taillon now would be the best idea. He’s coming off a second career TJ surgery and I feel his value will go way up if he has a strong first half of 2021. This isn’t like a Josh Bell situation where the Pirates would be selling low and recieveing a low return. Taillon, when he’s healthy, is a good starting pitcher. They would be rolling the dice keeping Bell and hoping he has a good first half of 2021 as he’s been one of the most inconsistent batters I’ve seen in a while
That said, Taillon shouldn’t be off the table completley. He has value, but he shouldn’t be traded unless Cherington gets back his full value. So far, he hasn’t traded a player for less than what they were worth imo, so I doubt he starts doing that now.
His salary gives him tremendous value and 2 years of control.
One of those two years will be recouping from his TJ surgery and getting back to normal. Not a lot of value.
He’ll be ready for Spring Training so it is the full 2 years.
2nd TJ though. There’s a lot more uncertainty when it’s the second time with that procedure. If I’m the Pirates I wait until the deadline so that he’s proven he’s fully back. Otherwise, you don’t get good value.
Garrett Richards just got 10 million plus a option.
Richards pitched very well last year.
I guess pitching with over a 4 era and other metrics that suggest he should have been 4.50 era guy is very good now. Even if he did pitch well by whatever low standard that is, Taillon has just as much value of not more due to his lower salary.
6 innings and 3 runs is a 4.50 ERA. More commonly known as a quality start. A 4 ERA as a starter is perfectly serviceable. I agree its not “very well”, but its not like he belongs in the minors
Richards has 2.3 WAR over the last FIVE seasons. That $10M was a reach for anyone. But, then again, I guess it proves your point.
To be fair, he hasn’t really been healthy the past 5 years.
He’s had two TJ surgeries. How can there not be a risk? His actual value is what someone else will pay (like all players) then it becomes BC’s decision.
Or you get nothing and are paying an injured player (hopefully not but there’s certainly a risk and while he may not be making big bucks, not all teams can afford salary leakage/waste.
In a short window.
Quality start matrix data means less and less. why do you think teams now need 13 pitchers? if anything, raise the standard back to 7 innings and 3 runs because that would be a valuable starting stat to lead the league in.
It’s takes a pitcher 6-12 months post TJ surgery to get back to normal.
What “other metrics” are you talking about? … his numbers were inflated by 2 bad outings in the short season
He has almost no value, its his 2nd TJ.
That’s just not true. He’s got plenty of value.
Teams are extremely wary of repeat-TJ guys.
We shall see how wary in the next few days
Have there been any 2nd TJ guys that were fairly prominent and successful, like him, and tore again? I just don’t recall if there have been any.
The flip side is he comes back and is horrid and you cant get rid of him for a bag of balls. Id likely feel more comfortable getting what you could now. And get the rebuild moving
If he pitches poorly or gets hurt first half of 2021, then he definitely has no value.
NH had a plan. Main part was to stay in contention to keep attendance up to make that extra money. Had the talent to achieve this, just couldn’t develop it. A rotation of Taillon Musgrove Glasnow Keller Brault Kuhl is solid with a competent pitching coach.
Taillon will be traded if the price is right. Or if BC has no faith in him coming back strong. He is 3 for 3 in trades. And Frazier is still around. So I have complete faith in his decision making. I would have kept Turly though, so if Turly is never heard from again my trust in BC will be off the charts.
YDGM-We will not know whether BC is 3 for 3 in trades for at least three years with all of the young players that he has received.
Glasgow is the only one that was not fully developed.Searage would have been stupid to tell all of the pitchers the same way to pitch if their skill sets dictated otherwise.NH would have been even dumber to allow that to happen.
Searage was a prime force in comebacks by Burnett,Nova,Happ,Volquez,and Liriano.All of them sang his praises.That could mean that he much better with veterans,but I have seen no documentation that he tried to make all of the young pitchers pitch the same way.
That said I do not doubt that he had a suggested approach.
We can disagree. 2020 was the best I have see Musgrove Brault Kuhl look by far. They made major changes and it worked. Cole and Glasnow certainly looked better under different coaches. A lot of the pen guys looked good. Not that ray didn’t have any success as you mentioned. They had a good strategy as well which they failed to adjust when it was needed.
I don’t need to wait 3 years. The trades were all great. Most prospects don’t work out. No need to wait years and call it a fail of they don’t pan out. These guys have as good of chance as any. He moved 3 average players and received far more their value. That’s a win. I don’t care if any of them are ever heard from again. Ay the time of the trade they were top notch prospects.
None of these three were all stars but all were good players.
None of them had to be traded at that particular time.
I do not have a problem with getting young players in return,but he did not get the quantity in the first two trades for two good position players that he got for Musgrove.
I do not doubt that the Marte return were two good prospects,but even though Marte had slid some he was still the best available center fielder.
We will have to agree to disagree as we both know that we are just voicing opinions.
It’s cool. You just love those players and have high expectations. Marte can’t play center, ok contract but certainly not cheap. The one kid was a late 1st round pick basically, 3rd best high school pitcher in the draft. The other kid would have gone late 1st round if drafted at that time. Same with the kid from the bell trade. Take away 2 months and Bell never had a season above 1 war. An average dh. BC got all star returns for average players. Saved money too. The Bell and marte trade brought back 3 of the pirates top 8 prospects. Not sure what more you could ask for.
They could make out really well if they pull a couple of good young players from the Yankees. That could end up working in the Pirates favor down the road. Of course, its prospects, so that’s the rub.
Marte was entering his age 31 season when the Pirates traded him. His defense the year prior to his trade was the worst in all of baseball in CF. Just because he was the only CF on the market doesn’t make his value skyrocket and keeping him around only decreases his value. Bell’s best position is DH. Cherington would banking on Bell to have a good first half and we all know how inconsistent Bell is. He’s not young anymore either as he’ll be 29 at the end of the 2021 season. In both cases, we’re not talking about 4 or 5 years of control remaining. We’re talking about 2.
The return in total between the two was Brennan Malone, Liover Peguero, Wil Crowe and Eddy Yean. Peguero is arguably a top 100 prospect. Malone, a first round pick the year prior. Yean is a top 10 org prospect in a much improved farm system. Crowe can slot into a rotation spot now. You’re not going to get much more in return for the two than that.
@mend except the 3 kids from marte bell trade are better than the catcher from the Musgrove trade and just as good if not better then the cf head.
Nah, Head is definitley the best piece the Pirates have gotten out of the three trades. He was seen as a guy who could be a five-tool outfielder. He was drafted in the third round because he was commited to playing quarterback in HS and scouts didn’t get a good look at him. Otherwise, he had first round talent. He already has the hit, run, field and arm tool down. His power though could be a 55-60 grade tool in the future. I think he’s a top 50 prospect or even better in the next two years.
I know all about him. I wouldn’t say he is in a different league then the other 3. I have all 4 ranked between 5 and 8. Head is 5th so I like him the best. But all 4 have huge upside but still enough ?s.
Idk, I just feel he’ll be way better than many expect. There’s a lot to like about him. I think he’ll end up better than Swaggerty.
I would take him over swaggerty. I like him. He needs to develop more power to be a stud. I can see it happening. He will be a major leaguer. Peguero could just as easily develop more power, similar profile as head but plays ss. I have them as equals.
Head is going to have to eventually get rid of his arm-bar. Until he does he will have huge holes in his swing.
More worried about it effecting his power. I dunno how much you want to mess with his swing. That should have been changed years ago. He makes great contact and has bat speed. I think I would wait and see. If you change it now or in 2 years it doesn’t matter.
@MLB1225 I don’t like trading of the pieces that put people in the seats and replace them with no bodies or has been. But Tallion has some value and understand of trading him now because he is still young and his contract doesn’t expire until after 2022 season. TJ or not, he has value for his age, production, and contract. When healthy, he is a top rotation starter. I am surprised Toronto hasn’t pulled the trigger for Tallion
I’d rather him than musgrove
Health matters. A lot.
If the Pirates trade Taillon, are there any decent players left on their roster with 4 or more years of MLB experience? There are many types of rebuilds in baseball. It sure looks like Pittsburg is going the mega-rebuild route. They can’t be anticipating a playoff push until at least 2024, and maybe not even a .500 season up until that point as well. It looks like they are going to build the team around K’Bryan Hayes at 3B (which is a good starting point) but they have a ton of work to do in order to become relevant again at the major league level. It’s too bad because the Pirates have a storied history (much like Detroit) and probably the best ballpark in all of baseball. For that stadium to sit 3/4 empty while they trot out an inferior roster is tragic! I’d love to see the Red Sox trade Fenway and a PTBNL (plane to be named later) for PNC Park.
I think they’ll start seeing major improvements in 2022. By then, Hayes, Cruz, Keller, Bolton and Reynolds should have at least one year of experience under their belt and they will also see guys like Peguero, Swaggerty and Tahnaj Thomas start making their way to the majors.
a lot will need to go right to see anything close to improvement any time soon in PIT.
Good thing there’s a lot of talent coming up through the system. FanGraphs ranked the Pirates’ farm as a top 5 system at the end of 2020. MLB Pipeline said they were one of the most improved farm systems over the last year.
They should keep Reynolds and Hayes and then bring up that farm system to replace anyone else.
Improvement? Can’t improve on having the #1 pick. That’s their goal this season.
I think Reynolds is gone at the deadline (or next off-season) if he can get back to prior form. He could return a decent haul.
There’s no way they trade Reynolds. He hasn’t even hit arbitration yet. Unless a team overpays by a large margin, Reynolds is gonna stay for the long haul. The Pirates will have a good amount of talent in 2022 and by 2023, Most of the Pirates’ best prospects will be up in the majors. Reynolds is controlled through 2025 and will almost for sure be part of the next competitng core.
Right, Reynolds stays since they are very thin at OF at the MLB level, and not a lot except Swaggerty in minors. Some will arrive by 2022-23, but so many of their best prospects are still in lower minors. Maybe .500 by 2024 if they ever draft a few impact bats in the OF, but system seems deep at infield and pitching.
.500 by 2024 is way too harsh on them. I’m saying .500 by 2022. Hudson Head could be a big impact bat. He was seen as a player with 5 tool potential and a guy who would have been picked in the first round had he not been playing quaterback in HS. Swaggerty has power potential having a 60-raw power grade on FanGraphs. Mason Martin was recently ranked as the 10th best 1B prospect by MLB Pipeline. Oneil Cruz has upper deck power. If any sembelance of Hayes’ brief power display in 2020 shows up in the future, he’ll be an impact bat. You’re not giving them enough credit for what they’ve done so far. One thing I’ve noticed is that Cherington is taking an approach to acquiring players that are good when it comes to making contact consistently, avoid striking out a whole lot and/or draw a fair amount of walks. This is also the approach the Dodgers have taken to build their core. Guys like Seager and Bellinger had better hit tools than power tools yet they’re power in the majors has been stellar.
Mlb1225, generally agree with your comments, but how can you expect .500 in 2022 when Head is a few years away, and Swaggerty, Cruz, Martin, N. Gonzalez aren’t all guaranteed to be here by 2022. Even if they are, not many players hit their max value in rookie season. Certainly agree that they have quality and quantity, just think its a little further away.
One guy I am watching is O’Neil right now. I am curious if he stays at SS or moves to the OF. His potential is outstanding and like to thank Atlanta for allowing the Pirates claim him.
Just because they don’t reach their full potential by 2024 doesn’t mean they won’t be productive.Cruz will almost for surely get a taste of big league action I’m 2p21. Swaggerty, Martin, have hit well so far in their career’s and could be at Triple-A by the end of the season. Gonzales is projected to be a fast raiser. I said earlier that his ETA is likely closer to 2023, but it isn’t out of the question he gets a small sample size of plate appearaces in 2022.
The Pirates didn’t claim Oneil Cruz. He went to the Pirates in the Tony Watson trade.
@mlb1225 –
I like Richard Rodriguez as a middle reliever. Taillon & Rodriquez might help the Yanks if they are truly serious about the first CBT threshold.
Also, wondering what you think about Chris Stratton.
Stratton is a solid reliever. I think he can get better. His ERA is a bit misleading because he gave up a few runs in his last outing of the season. Before that he had a 3.18 ERA. All of his ERA estimators, that being xFIP, xERA, SIERA and DRA, all say he’s about a 3.5-3.6 ERA pitcher in 2020. It is pretty impressive just how much spin he puts on the ball. He ranked in the top 98th percentile in fastball RPM and top 97th percentile in curveball RPM. He started seeing more higher leverage situations later in the season, but he’s probably better suited for a mid-relief/long relief role.
Merci, @mlb1225.
Yeah, when I looked him up he seemed pretty interesting. Basically, the good version of Jonathan Holder. Yet, BTV assigns him a value of 0.
Specifically, it doesn’t seem like Yajure or Loaisiga for the two of them is an overpay. Yet, by BTV it would be. But it seems like Rodriguez & Stratton would give a team (like the Yanks) that’s trying to save on payroll a couple of solid middle relievers for ~ $2 mil AAV.
Ducky! Who do you think the Yanks are going to send over?!
Honestly, I’m more interested in Rodriguez & Stratton than I am Taillon.
Don’t forget last year’s #1 pick, Nick Gonzales.
Probably has an ETA closer to 2023, but if he can hit anything like he did in college, then he might get his cup of coffee in the bigs in 2022. I really could see the Pirates being a .500 team in 2022 if guys like Hayes, Cruz, Keller, Reynolds and/or Bolton play up to anything near their expectation. They likely will also get to see Tahnaj Thomas, Swags and Peguero sometime in ’22 as well. Who knows, if the expanded playoffs are here to stay, they might somehow sneak into a low-wild card spot.
Mlb1225: I believe the Yankees *might be trying to negotiate for Frazier also. If so, who do you think they will need to give up to get the Jameson and Frazier deal done?
Dorothy-Fenway Park is precious.
The Pirates have several more tradeable players but hopefully BC does not over react.They are wholesaling now because they have been the worst team in baseball for 1 1/2 years.
Their previous philosophy was to stay decent enough to at least compete for the WC while trading their best players with a year or two remaining to get good returns from contending teams.I think that they have been caught completely by surprise by the underperformance of practically everyone in 2020.
@Mendoza – I agree Fenway is precious but when you split season tickets at Fenway like I do and try to squeeze into their tiny seats 20+ times per year, you get over its charm pretty quickly, especially when you’ve been to another 15-20 MLB stadiums and know how it could be. I’m 6’ 1” tall and weigh 195 so it’s not like I’m an overly large person who needs a ‘double-wide’ to be comfortable. Unfortunately, my neighboring season ticket holder is, so the wife and I take turns sitting next to him and his ‘side-rails’ that spill over into our seat.
One of the few parks I haven’t been to is PNC Park, but I hear it is absolutely gorgeous. I’ve never seen it rated below #3 overall in MLB ballpark rankings and in most of the published rankings, PNC is the #1 park. It’s just such a shame it is getting wasted on the Pirates franchise. Don’t get me wrong, I love Fenway and the fact that I can walk to it in 10 minutes from my house, but I really wouldn’t mind if they replaced it with a stadium that is PNC worthy. At least fans would fill it up on a regular basis, that’s for sure! We can turn Fenway into a museum.
I am an American history buff so I am partial to Fenway and Wrigley Field for that reason.
Forbes Field was constructed in 1909 and it had many of the problems that you encounter.I saw the last game there in 1970 and still miss that old park.
PNC is beautiful but the genius of it is the view of the Pittsburgh skyline and the River next to it.
I attended a game at Fenway 40 years ago and had a great time but can appreciate what you encounter regularly.
It’s time for baseball to have a minimum salary for teams as a whole. This tanking thing for these cheep cheep teams are getting old. I’d think 100 million would be a good starting point.
The problem with a salary floor is that it wouldn’t solve baseball’s tanking problem. Bad teams would just elect to spend all their money on one player, or overpay for bad players in order to reach the floor. For example, the Pirates could spend all their money on a free agent like Realmuto and then do nothing else. Sure, they would be a little bit better, but they would still lose over 100 games. And by spending a bunch of money when they are still in a rebuild phase, small market teams would hurt long-term when they are trying to compete because they have already spent big money on aging players.
Hear your point Dr Dan but wouldnt those teams also enter the Justin Turner market this year? Ozuna? Trevor May and so on and so forth …….
By setting mins you’ll actually see a more fair representation of a free market for free agents play out. Less getting squeezed out for the players
I think it lessens the probability of wanting to spend bad money- And for teams that are actually still tanking, it opens up an easier route to take on prospects in a Justin Upton type dump,,,,,, Sure many GM’s would want to go that route but cant get clearance on the 2/51 left to do so.
It’s time for baseball to have a minimum salary for teams as a whole.
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BB might be more balanced than most sports. Having a relatively flat payroll structure in the NFL hasn’t helped the level of competition.
And several of the small market teams, including all the AL division winners, have done quite well.
At the end of the day, a lot of the differential has to do with how well these teams are run, not how much money they spend. No one goes to TB or CL games, and they usually do pretty well.
If there are any decent players left with 4 years experience they are looking to trade them. Nobody has offered anything for adam Frazier or he would have been traded. Good glove 2b ok lf .276 10 hrs. I suppose that is decent. Colin Moran is excellent pinch hitter. Could knock out 20 in a starting role. Couple solid relievers mlb mentioned. They are close to 4 years if not there. Kuhl and Brault improved under a new pitching coach. They are solid #4s at best. Stallings is a excellent catcher in every aspect besides hitting which he still does well enough.
They could add a few pieces and contend in the central. No point in doing so. The farm is still middle of the pack and they would get destroyed in the playoffs. Another 2 or 3 drafts of picking high and they will have a top 5 system. I seen someone said fangraphs has them top 5 already, good for them. To me they are still outside the top 10 until after the trade deadline and draft. 2023 majority of the good prospects will be coming up. Pirates should be one of the better teams shortly after that. I don’t expect much 2022.
At least Pittsburgh is committing to it. I bet fans of other teams, ie CHC, would rather their team just complete the rebuild and do it right rather than a flaccid rebuild, rather than selling off a couple of key players, but at reduced returns.
Pittsburgh is committing to it now because they are the worst team in MLB and have no other choice.
It is just a shame that they wasted their three best years by far since 1992 during the height of the Cardinals excellent period.
The NL Central is ripe for the taking now,and to some extent was last year too.
Que sera,sera.
Yes, but they could’ve held on to their players, which is exactly my point. They recognized it and are doing something about it.
With the Pirates it’s not a question of if, it’s a question of when.
And the answer to when should not be right now. Let him build up value
Taillon has so much value at $2.5M and no more than $5M next that they could target where HE wants to go…. I bet just a contender.
Ben plan: do what Nutting tells me to do. If they get anything, they’ll get what, a mid 20s middling prospect? a low a ball 19 yr old that will be buried until he’s traded? wake up. this team is horrid. 100 loss season looms. There’s no joy in mudville because Bob Nutting does not give a damn. His ski lifts are more important.
That’s unequivocally false. Nutting put a payroll of the team over $100 million from 2015 to 2017 and above $90 million in 2018. Most of the salary was to middling players like Juan Nicasio, Ryan Vogelsong, Neftali Feliz, Chris Archer, Jeff Locke, Daniel Hudson, Jon Jaso, Ivan Nova and so on. So far in the Cherington era, he’s yet to get back a middling return in a big trade. A 100 loss season would be welcomed by most as it gets us another high draft pick.
Elijah Green on deck!
Pirates did do quite well in the Musgrove trade. But not sure there’s another team like the Padres out there, who have such a minor league roster crunch as SD had this off-season.
Someone said the Mets, which I wouldn’t rule out. It would also make sense as filling in that last spot of the rotation with Taillon over Matz looks a lot better. Plus it gives them another good starter in case they lose both Stroman and Syndergaard in FA next off season. Maybe try and get someone like Brett Batty, Matt Alan or Mark Vientos as a headliner with someone who can slot into the rotation now like Frankyn Kilome.
Ben wouldn’t have taken the job without some kind assurance from Nutting. There’s no point spending now in order to win 72 games instead of 68. Nutting will be tested in 2024-26 when they are competitive but need to spend tol fill a few holes. He failed miserably in 2015-16 but he’ll have another chance.
The window is not 2024-2026. They should be consistently in playoff contention by then. The window cracks open in 2022 when you start seeing guys like Mason Martin, Travis Swaggerty, Tahnaj Thomas, Travis Swaggerty and Liover Peguero join Hayes, Keller and Reynolds and the Pirates get a flood more of young talent in 2023. You are way off with that estimate. Unless key pieces like Gonzales, Cruz, Hayes, Priester, Malone, Martin, Swaggerty, Thomas, Bolton, Mlodzinski, Reynolds and Keller suffer injuries that keep them out for multiple seaosns, they’ll be back in it much sooner than many think.
Mlb1225, you’re right, but when the small market Royals got close, their payroll went to $125 or so (if i recall correctly). They were committed to go all in for a years, knowing there would be a payroll purge after. The Pirates error was thinking they could be competitive every year instead of accepting the boom / bust cycle
Bobveale, is it true that you could throw a strawberry through a locomotive?
If he wore his inch thick lenses eyeglasses. If not, he wouldn’t be capable of finding it.
An underappreciated pitcher. It’s nice someone remembered and mentioned him!
Right, Reynolds stays since they are very thin at OF at the MLB level, and not a lot except Swaggerty in minors. Some will arrive by 2022-23, but so many of their best prospects are still in lower minors. Maybe .500 by 2024 if they ever draft a few impact bats in the OF, but system seems deep at infield and pitching.
Ben wouldn’t have taken the job without some kind assurance from Nutting. There’s no point spending now in order to win 72 games instead of 68. Nutting will be tested in 2024-26 when they are competitive but need to spend tol fill a few holes. He failed miserably in 2015-16 but he’ll have another chance.
Nutting is thrifty, not cheap. How exactly did he fail to spend when they were contenders? I know of maybe 1 example. Pirates would over pay in the draft before they came up with draft pools. Loved to aquire international spending money so they could spend more in international market. Always tried to lock up young players. Still trying but they want to be free agents. He won’t give a 30 year old hundreds of millions and good for him. It’s not a good idea.
I agree on Nutting.The one time where cheap could come somewhat into play with some truth is in 2016 when he did not ante up for one more year by keeping Walker for his last year,not signing Happ,and paying Alvarez to be terrible at first base but to still hit home runs.
Otherwise he is a true businessman just looking at the bottom line.
But like him or not,he has added stability to a franchise that did not have it for 15 years.
That’s the one I came up with. Not bringing back Happ or signing someone else. But it is explainable. Look at the prospects at that time who were ready for the majors. I am not as big of pirate fan as you but I know they had Taillon and kuhl ready. How far off was brault, williams and glasnow? Point is they didn’t want to block them, Happ got 3 years?
I know pirate fans loved Walker. But he was simply a average 2b with back problems. Neiese was actually a solid pitcher and a lefty. Moving walker cleared a spot for Harrison. Who could predict that in the same year Niese, Liriano and Locke would all go from solid starters to crap? I know who, NH haha.
Who was a good 1st baseman at the time that they could have signed? Actually NH did a good job there. I know pirate fans hated them but he brought in cheap guys who did the one thing that brad pitt cared about. They couldn’t hit for average or power yet pitchers must have been afraid to throw them strikes lol.
So that’s how I seen it. But it’s a lot easier to just say NH was terrible and nutting is cheap.
You know a fair amount about the Pirates.You and mlb225 have a much better grip on the young players than I do.They did not want to pay Happ since they were giving the exact same salary to Liriano.One of the problems with small market teams is that they do not have the wherewithal to stock players for injuries,especially pitchers.But they had been good enough,and close enough,that Nutting could have lived on the wild side for one year.It may have gone against their way of thinking,but sometimes one must not be so confined.And pitchers quite often quit being good pretty quickly,as we all know.Would Happ be that good in 2016? That was another question.You are right on Walker and Niese,and they were smart not to sign Walker long term with his back,but one more year could have been it.Alvarez provided the power that they have basically lacked since tthen Jhay could have stayed as the itilityman with SRod.The point is for that one year they could have busted the salary range.And that is a decent arguement for the Nutting haters.
They could have and I felt they should have signed Happ. I would have signed Happ. He didn’t cost that much and would have been even cheaper since he could of stayed in the USA and in a state with fairly low taxes and cheap to live in city. I watch a lot more college and minor league baseball then pro. I can talk about any team and usually do. Especially if I find a fellow commentor up late at night with me like you! I have a soft spot for small market teams. Besides lower level baseball I love trades. NH and BC make a lot of interesting trades. I like smart run teams. So the pirates are one of my favorite teams to follow. BC is doing a tremendous job. Just enjoy his trades this year. 2022 you will see a few exciting kids come up. 2023 you will be in for a treat, start seeing the rewards from all these trades. 2024 should be a winning season. Should be good for 10 year stretch.
The thing is, while I do understand that they didn’t want to commit long term, they did tell Happ and his agent that they were willing to match any offer he was given. Instead, Happ accepted the deal from the Jays and never re-engaged in talks with the Pirates. They did have a handful of young arms coming up through the system, but when Happ makes the same amount in 2016 as Jon Niese, Ryan Vogelsong, Juan Nicasio and Jeff Locke combined, you know you messed up. The 2016-2018 Pirates were great at directing their resources to the wrong areas.
You know a fair amount about the Pirates.You and mlb1225 know much more about the young players than I do.
The reason that they did not sign Happ was because Liriano was a similiar pitcher for the exact same money,and they did not trust that Happ would continue pitching extremely well after pitching for Searage.
They could have paid Walker one more year to try to repeat their success.But you are right about him and Niese.
Alvarez was a terrible first baseman but they have missed his power ever since.They could have offered salary arb one more time.
The Pirates did not change their small market plan when they had the chance for just one year.Nutting could have lived on the wild side for once since they were so close.Everyone knows that the shelf life for pitchers now is not very long.Even though such teams cannot stockpile they could have gone one more year.Such is the decent arguement for Nutting haters.
Ok mendoza we get it!
You know a lot about the Pirates.You and mlb1225 know a lot more than I do about the young players.
Happ was not signed because he would have made the exact same amount as Liriano and they had to trust that the marked improvement brought about by Searage would continue.
You are right about Walker and Niese,But they could have signed Walker for his last year to go for it in 2016.
Alvarez was in his last arb year but they did not want to pay him because he was an awful fielder but have missed his power ever since.
The problem was that they would not change their small market philosophy for the one year that could have mattered.Everyone knows that you cannot have enough pitching and they lost Burnett to retirement.They basically gave Morton and his $10M salary away although he had been constantly hurt while a Pirate.
It is this arguement that the Nutting haters can at least have some confidence in.
Sorry,this advertisement screwed me up.
Thanks again for the kind words.
Haha I don’t care. It’s the system. I seen people double post often. Few times like 10 20 times in a row all at once.
First time even for twice for me in 3 1/2 years of posting.I am 67 and do not function well this late.Plus I am dealing with a mouse who is smarter than me and almost as big.
I do apologize and appreciate your forbearance but this site now has a number of intelligent and conversant posters and when I get on a roll about the Pirates I cannot stop!
I bid you good night.
Get that rest. 67 is young enough. Watch the gluten. Take a multi. Get some sunshine. I multi commented before. Did nothing but hit publish one time. No biggie. You sir are a gentleman though. I am heading off soon as well. Maybe catch you tommorow. I will tell you how great the trade return was and you can hate on it! Lol I know it will be good already, cause if it’s not there won’t be a trade.
Interesting fact about Pittsburg I was looking at the other day was they are one of the fastest declining major cities. You hate to see teams leave a city but even if they move to a bigger market nearby it’s what they need to do to become a major team again somewhere. Even Idaho is growing quicker by percentage this year than any other state. I would love to see Boise/Omaha gain a sports franchise. Sorry Pirates fans.. you kind of could care less these days anyways lol.
Even though Pittsburgh has been declining and Idaho has been growing, Pittsburgh is still much larger than any city in Idaho. Idaho will not be getting a professional sports team anytime soon.
I wouldn’t be too worried about Pittsburgh. Yes the city is a shell of what it once was, but they’re one of the few rust-belt cities that have successfully “remade” their economy.
The issue with Boise/Omaha are their metro pops — both being below 1m people. Pitt on the other hand, still has more than 2m in the greater metropolitan area.
The Western PA region put 2.5 Million fans in the stadium when the team was relevant. Team TV viewership remains strong. The Pens and the Steelers remain two of the strongest franchises in their sports. What has hamed the Pirates has mostly had to do with the team management and owners and, of course, with the labor management relations that define MLB. Even a rustbelt city like Pittsburgh can support a baseball team St Louis can and has. Moreover, a large Metropolitan region like Houston’s did not help the Astros to avoid a ground up rebuild. Indeed, the Astros are shedding players as we live and breath. The Cubs are also a mess heading towards a rebuild.
The post to which I am replying is just merde.
Thanks for the info guys I enjoy the economics of things as much as baseball.. That being said I’ve never compared Idaho populations around Boise to other regions in the country (it’s still ill probably very small in comparison for the next decade even if the growth keeps churning over that time). Gavin Newsom and the virus have a lot of different people leaving the state and Idaho and Texas have been major hotspots.
Omaha and Lincoln to me would be like San Diego now having just one major sports franchise. The Pirates just vibe well to me as a team that could do so much better financially with a move after decades of disappointment. Is the owner not pulling what the owner in Major League (the movie) tried to here lol? I imagine Pittsburgh hardly cares about the team the way they do about the Steelers and Pens for that reason so financially they could compete for local dollars in another city. Somewhere.
HfHOF-Actually the Pirates have never drawn as well as the Steelers,even when they had good teams and the Steelers were close to the laughingstock of the NFL.
Hockey has also been a popular sport in Pittsburgh,and Mario Lemieaux saved the franchise there,
It is a sad time for all ML fans when a team leaves a city.Memories leave with them,and the fans who are left are devastated.How would you feel? You may not know but Pittsburgh almost lost the team in the early 1990’s. Nutting is basically a savior compared to the two ownerships preceding him.
Small market teams basically have little chance in this sport as opposed to the three other major sports.I think as long as a team can be at least somewhat competitive over a medium number of years that they deserve to remain where they are.
The Pirates are not going anywhere. Dreams of the Pirates moving begin in the mind of someone who took a long draw from his crack pipe.
Exactly this.
In 2021? No but they’re going to see Hayes, Keller and Reynolds for a full season and eventually get a look at Oneil Cruz and Cody Bolton. That sets up nicely for 2022 where then they’ll likely see Swaggerty, Peguero, Thomas and Martin sometime during the season.
HfHOF-Anything said from someone with that pen name is taken with a large grain of salt.Hosmer makes way more than he earns,which means he will belong to the Hall of Shame before the HOF comes calling.
Do you think that most of the fans of many of the ML teams live in the city?
I think that you will a very,very old person before Boise Idaho gets a ML team.
Thanks for thinking that you can speak for Pirates fans,though.LOL.
YES an argument on if he deserves HOF repeating his current consistency.. You’re saying if he wins more WS’s with the Padres hitting 20-25HR a year for 7-8 more years and gets one or two more gold gloves maybe a silver slugger and averages .270 over that time (lifetime .278 hitter) that he won’t make the hall of fame with his current results? I’d take his contract again over a similarly big free agent like George Springer deal which was too much thanks.. Jays similarly needed some veterans to try building up that teams potential. Hosmer has the defensive and offensive ability plus his team chemistry (the main reason they wanted him so bad for that cash) to play 1B or DH until he’s 38-39 somewhere if he wanted.
I like what Hosmer did this past season, and I think he could be a valuable player if he continues to hit the ball in the air. However, he is definitely not a HOF caliber player. Outside of 2017 and 2020, he has been a below average player for much of his career. Hitting 20 home runs a year will not make any difference.
And yes, George Springer at $150 million is a much better contract than Eric Hosmer at $144 million.
Hosmer hit a mediocre 262/318/423 in his 3 seasons wth the Padres and has only hit more than 20 HRs 3 times in his 10-year career, and we’re supposed to think he might do better consistently through his late-30s?
Hosmer is not just in your screen name but is also your last name in real life, right?
As a lifelong Pirates fan, I can tell you that your suggestion that we “could care less” about what is happening with the team is patently untrue. The Pittsburgh fans I know are seeming to trust this current rebuild because of the new GM. But if in a few years the team starts selling off players again, that might be the final straw. This is an important time for Pirates fans.
You need to follow the science. Team was dog crap for 20 years yet fans show up. When they are playoff contenders a million more show up. They will never near the tops in attendance because of a small ball park. If they knew attending baseball games would become more popular they would have built a bigger park. Still good thing they didn’t since a bigger park has only been needed in 3 out of 20 years.
If more than one team bids for Tailon, the Pirates could get a respectable return for Tailon. As Pirates fan, I can hope for that.
Not too long ago, team fans could dream on a starting rotation that would have had Cole, Tailon and Glasnow at the top.
Qeu serz….
Yankee fans can dream of this now.
“5.9 percent walk rate, and 46.2 percent walk rate.” Which one? I really hope it’s the first one. Think the second is ground ball rate.
Of course it’s the first one, because he would be out of the league if it was the second one.
The success rate for two-time TJ recipients is so low, trading for him before he returns to the mound seems a bit off the wall.
I see it from the Pirates pov, as they may view flipping him for whatever they can get now is a net positive — rather than risk waiting to see if/how he returns, but I have to assume the return would be minimal.
IjustloveBaseball, I agree. I read a report last week regarding two-time TJ recipients and their results are not good. A handful of guys have come back with some level of success, but they represent the minority. Hopefully, for the Pirates, JT will be the exception.
He very well could be! Eventually, there will be a guy who performs well despite two operations.
Just throwin’ it out there for convo — Chris Capuano is arguably the most successful “starting” pitcher following a 2nd TJ procedure.
The others, while still very few, have been relievers.
If he had his first TJS before the age of 20, he should be fine. Nathan Eovaldi comes to mind as some who’s had two TJ surgeries and he’s throwing as hard as he ever has. Clevinger is also going through the same thing now. The procedure itself is so much better today than it was in the past. It leaves much less scar tissue, heals quicker and heals stronger than it ever has before. So long as Taillon is throwing pain free and has recuperated most of his velocity, there’s no reason to look at him any differently from a pitcher who is recovering from his first TJS. Given his age, low salary and multiple years of control left, Taillon should be able to fetch a nice return for the Pirates so long as he’s able to pass his physical.
If he is going to be traded, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him go to the Yankees. He’s exactly what NY is looking, an experienced SP with #2 or #3 upside, and a low salary to keep them under the CBT. His $2.5M salary does exactly that. It’s going to cost them a couple of significant prospects to get him though. I’m thinking someone like Luis Gil would be the headliner along with another one of their Top 10 prospects like: Peraza, Florial or Vizcaino. I don’t see NY trading any of their Top 3 prospects (Jasson, Devi or Schmidt) for Taillon but they probably would and should trade (2) of their remaining Top 10 guys to get him in pinstripes. It’s time for Hal Jr. to start acting more like his dad and try to go for it all this year.
@Ijustlove baseball – You are incorrect about the ‘rest being relievers’. Nathan Eovaldi’s had TJS wice and Clevinger is about to do it too as well. I believe there are other current starters who’ve had the surgery twice already as well.
I think you misread, but no worries — what I was saying was “successful” two-time recipients — not just pitchers who have undergone it twice. Although Eovaldi could soon fall into that category.
If the return would be minimal he simply won’t be traded. Teams will do their research, if he looks good they will have to pay for his services. If he doesn’t look good they won’t have interest. Not going to take a top 100 to get him but he will bring back a few high upside prospects. Somewhere between the bell and Musgrove/darvish trade returns.
In before Yanks’ robo-offer of Frazier, Deivi and lottery tickets.
not the word’s worst offer for a frequent injury concern.
Certainly much better than the ridiculous made up trade proposals than the “wannabe GMs on Yankees Twitter would come up with.” Heck they even think they can get a team’s ace by giving up garbage.
Pretty severe overpay by the NYY’s.. Taillon is closer in value to a catcher like Shea Langeliers.. The Braves have a solid core of catchers.. and would welcome a veteran mid to back of the rotation starter..
For Langeliers BC would do that in a second. You could ask for Brault and Kuhl as well and it probably gets done. Taillon will bring back a few high upside teenagers. Maybe a guy who needs rule 5 protected as well. I am sure BC would love a good aa aaa prospect, but gotta take what you can get.
Everyone is always adding Frazier, but aren’t the yanks counting on him significantly this yr…I would say they would want a few low a guys whose eta 2023
Unless said Low-A guys are higher up ranked prospects like within the top 5 of the organization, I doubt they settle for just that. The ETA around 2023 is about right.
Todd – You are correct. NY is not trading Frazier this year as they finally need him. Now the arm-chair NY GMs have switched off of Frazier and are back to Andujar again. Back in 2018, Andujar could have netted Mike Trout straight up to these guys…now he can merely bring back a Luis Castillo type of player. I love some Yankee fans’ trade proposals on this site. They overrate the value of their prospects with the best of them.
Yeah, no other team’s fan base does that.
The yankees are counting on Stanton/Judge/Hicks to miss significant time.. hence the reason for Red Thunder.. Health is a skill.. one the NYY OF’ers have not figured out..
If the Pirates receive that package for Taillon they should take it immediately.
You kid but a very large portion a if yankees fans legit think that that would be a good deal(it’s not; for Pittsburg yes, ny no). I knew he had a good injury history but I had no idea he’s already on his second tj surgery….only thing I’d trade him for now is cash or a kid that barely ranks in the systems top 50.
Pirates should let him pitch til deadline and see if A. He has any value and B. What exactly will he be worth giving up depending on if he’s doing good/ok or inevitably gets hurt again.
More like Florial, Yajure & Hauver
The Pirates will want a legitimate SP prospect back in return for Taillon, otherwise they have zero reason to trade him. He’s still pretty young, he’s only making $2.5M and is controllable for two more seasons, this one at a great price. If the Pirates feel that Taillon is fully healthy, they are going to hold firm on their high asking price right now (hence Gill being included in my NYY trade proposal). If they don’t like the trade proposals offered back to them, they will most likely bet on Taillon and let him pitch up to the trade deadline. If he’s performs at a high level through July, the Pirates will end up getting more in return for him at the trade deadline than they would get for him now. So the Pirates only ‘need’ to trade him now if the package is too good to pass up. Otherwise, put him out there every 5 days and let him audition for contenders come July.
Dbird: It’s more likely going to include young arms. Most doubtful, Frazier, unless Frazier is coming back over from Pitt.
I’d be surprised if they go Deivi ++ for Jameson. If it’s Deivi + Frazier, they’re getting more than Tallion imho.
Wouldn’t mind seeing the Mets roll the dice on him. Even with Thor coming back (and on an innings restriction I’m sure), Stroman isn’t a lock to be signed in the off-season by the Mets when he’s a free agent.
100% deal him – Not much identity in the Div for the future. Pitt needs to form one and commit to a timeframe (it aint now)
They need to fully commit this time and start thinking outside the box
Angels need to get involved
I hope they are be nice add for them
Unpopular opinion: MLB needs to step in and ensure that all 30 of its major league teams are at least somewhat competitive. This Pirates team would finish middle of the pack in AAA. There has to be a payroll floor in the next CBA.
There’s no way that owners agree on a salary floor and the only way that one would work is that if a salary cap was also put into place. With just a salary floor, there’s nothing stoping the Pirates from just going out and signing like Trevor Bauer, reaching the bare minimum payroll and just keeping one big contract on the books to stay above the floor. Also with just a floor, many smaller market teams would just reach the bare minimum while the bigger market teams just spent more, evenging things out but with more money involved.
A payroll floor doesn’t mean a team will be competitive. If a team has determined they don’t have what it takes to win, and that they are better off just losing while building for the future, then forcing them to spend another $30 million accomplishes nothing except making it harder for them to raise the payroll in the future when they might actually be competitive.
The owners will never agree to a salary floor and the players will never agree to a cap. Unfortunately, that’s just the way it is. People keep bringing this up because other sports have them but other sports are not MLB.
It’s also partly because that like other spots, in the MLB, talent takes a while to develop. When a team drafts a player, they likey won’t be in the bigs for another two or three years at the minimum. Unlike in the NBA or NFL, when you draft a player, they’re not on the big league roster the next week.
Yeah its embarrassing when teams behave the way the Pirates are right now. Years upon years of a rebuild trying to get top young talent that .ivjt never arrive.
The Astros were disgusting for a decade, complete disgrace to the game, but look at them now…oh nevermind.
(Also sucks when your team goes to one of these tanking teams and gets handled in a short series)
The issue has never been getting talent to the majors. It was getting said talent to take the next step when they got there, more so the pitching than anything else. The Pirates’ door slammed shut on them when they refused to move on from the pitch-to-contact, down and away sinker/2-seam approach when it started to become ineffective. Sure it worked for older guys losing velo and couldn’t blow it by batters to get strikeouts anymore, but how do you not see that this isn’t the technique that should be forced onto young power arms like Gerrit Cole and Tyler Glasnow? They essentially made them pitch like ground ball pitchers when they were strikeout pitchers through-and-through. I really like what Oscar Marin has done with the pitching staff. Many of their pitchers took major steps forward in 2020 because he let them use what they were best with getting guys out with.
This. Well said.
Since Huntington took over, the Pirates have had a very keen eye for talent. In 2011, they picked not just Gerrit Cole, but Tyler Glasnow, Josh Bell and Trea Turner. In 2016, their first round compensation pick was Nick Lodolo. They also selected Walker Buehler in the ’12 draft and Paul deJong way late in the 2014 draft. I can’t really blame them for not being able to sign Turner, Buehler and deJong because they were late round picks, but it just goes to show that the Pirates have a good eye for talent for quite some time now.
Mlb1225- You are talking from knowledge and the NH haters do not.He had pluses and minuses but his middle period was very good.Also,Nutting pays almost top dollar for draft choices instead of spending it on expensive free agents.
I think that BC got a good return for Musgrove,but the Marte and Bell trades were underwhelming in my opinion.
The hope is that BC can greatly upgrade the talent in the farm system in a variety of ways and he seems like he is capable of doing so.I did not expect them to be so horrid the last half of 2019 and 2020 so hopefully the farm system fruits can ripen sooner rather than later and he can at least find another Cole and McCutcheon from that group.
I think the Marte trade was more than fair. Marte has been declining defensively since moving to CF. Peguero is arguably a top 100 prospect and Brennan Malone was one of the top high school arms in the 2019 draft. He likely would have went higher up if there wasn’t uncertainty about his chances to sign with whatever team drafted him. I can see how the Bell trade was a bit underwhelming, but when you look at it, how much are you going to get back for an inconsistent first baseman who’s best position is likely DH? Eddy Yean is a top 10 organizational prospect and Wil Crowe gives them an MLB ready arm. I really think that Hayes is the Pirates’ next McCutchen. He has the raw power to easily be a 20-25 home run guy. He just needs to start getting the ball in the air more. He has elite bat speed as do many of the other Pirates’ prospects. Their next Cole is gonna be Quinn Priester. Jonathan Mayo got calls from all different team’s scouts just saying that he’s an arm to keep an eye on. Mayo went as far to say that he could be baseball’s next best pitching prospect.
MLB-Hayes looked very good at the end of the year but I am not getting too excited about any young player until they perform consistently in MLB.
He never was close to an elite hitter in the minor leagues but he may be growing into one now but I will wait to see.
You realize how many teams have done the same? Mets originally drafted Clemens, yanks Cole, etc.
As for the Pirates, Cole was the consensus number one pick. I’m sure Huntington read his Baseball America prospects book.
Just saying that the Pirates have never been a team to miss out on talent. Yea, Cole was the consensus #1 pick that year. But look at how much talent they could have had in that draft.
They lacked direction. I na very strange set of moves, PT decided to rebuild, and traded Cole. Fine with me. But then a couple of months later,they decided the rebuild was complete, and traded for Archer. They could’ve had:
Cole, Glasnow, Meadows & Baz
And wound up with Archer, Musgrove,Feliz, Martin & Moran
And, if you are going to tank, tank hard. At the 2019 trade deadline, their all-in move was to trade Dickerson. They should’ve traded everyone. Their all-in move at the 2020 trade deadline was to trade Dyson.
I know they obviously did not have a lot to trade. But the RS, with only a slightly better record, managed to trade off Workman, Hembree, Moreland, Pillar & Osich. Pittsburgh could find any scrubs to move?
I mean, who are they gonna move? Derek Holland? I guess Richard Rodriguez, Adam Frazier and Chris Stratton, but Holland was the only player that the Pirates were likely willing to move on from. Plus this isn’t a one-way street. Two teams need to be in agreement for a trade to work. You also don’t just trade pieces with multiple years of control remaining just to trade them. You wait until you find a fair offer.
Joe-Cole was not traded as a rebuild.He had two years left and they knew that they would not resign him.That was their philosophy,and was consistent with him and others like McCutcheon and Walker.
The Archer trade occurred because they thought that they could compete for the division with him.NH just greatly overrated Archer.
I like it that BC is not just getting rid of players.He seems to try to get something for them but I think that he should have waited with Bell for the trade deadline.
Same thing with Taillon.Let him get some value,and trade him to a contender this year if he is pitching well.They could get a lot for him if he is pitching to near the level that he did in 2018,his one healthy year.
No contenders were desperate enough for Frazier. I am sure bell was available. They tried tried Musgrove but he was hurt and return wasn’t enough. Kuhl was rumored. Archer Kela got hurt. History shows BC will trade anybody for a good return. Simply wasn’t any good enough offers.
Seam-A middle of the pack AAA team would win about 20-25 games in ML.
The tanking group includes maybe five-six teams that knew that they would be bad for several years.The Pirates were not one of them as their philosophy was to be decent and have a chance to get into a wild card or win a weak division.
They are as bad as they have been for 1 1/2 years on merit,and I think that it caught them by surprise.They basically realize now that their clearest way to improve now is to trade their better and older players.It fits their plan for many years to trade them to contenders with one or two years left to get something good in return.They are just doing it en masse now because of how bad they have been.
Cap would have to be like 150. A third of the league struggles to have a 100 payroll each year. They keep it under 100 when bad then increase to or above in contention windows. They could afford to spend 100 or even 130 every year but billionaires like making money. So the floor couldn’t be much higher than 100. So if the cap is more than 150 there is no use having a cap. The floor and cap could be higher. The large markets would just need to simply shielding their revenue from the sharing pool. This isn’t happening.
Hypothetically let’s say there is a cap and floor. Small market teams would simply lock up young players and prospects. Would reach the floor and still be bad. Every owner in baseball is making money and seems happy. Only push to change things is from fans or media.
Adam Frazier and maybe Colin Moran are next.
Pirates would love to trade them. Takes another team wanting them enough to give up enough to make sense in trading them. Who wants to give up young high upside prospects for a average 2b and a average platoon bat?
I thought life as an A’s fan was rough. At least they’re good and then ship everyone out. It must be terrible being a Pirates fan.
Master-It wasn’t for 2013,14,and 15 when they had the second best record in baseball.
Nutting actually paid to top off the rosters but he was bringing fans into the ballpark then.
All small market teams follow this route.
That is what is worst.It is their time now.They seem to have abandoned the mired in mediocrity approach.It changed with the Archer trade when they thought that they actually had a shot,but it backfired to say the least.
Yes it is terrible trading off all these average players with 2 years of control left to stockpile the farm with high upside talent so the pirates can be playoffs contenders for a decade. Only thing worse would be watching your closer and ss leave and get nothing for them.
They might as well trade him If there is significant interest. The pirates goal right now should be getting as many #1 overall picks as possible. There farm has improved quite a bit and if they keep getting the #1 pick they might have the top farm system in MLB within the next year or two.
AJ Preller on line 1… can never have too much pitching right?
OK Cashman, here’s a good pitcher (when healthy) who only makes $2.5 million won’t cost Gleyber. Go get him
Blue Jays need to trade for Taillon, sign Paxton, and market them as the “CanadArms.”
Braves don’t need him, but I want him lol
If I’m the Yankees I’d try to trade Frazier, Andujar and one of their young arms for Taillon and one of their relievers
The Pirates won’t trade for present value. That has been the strategy so far.
Clam-That seems familiar.It was close to the package NH wanted for someone who has turned out to be the best starter in baseball for the last three years,
Cashman whiffed on that one,but I think that it would be an overpay now unless Taillon is proven healthy.
The Pirates wanted Jacob DeGrom?
Schmidt plus Medina and maybe someone else. They want cost-controlled pitchers. Taillon hasn’t been staying healthy like he should, so I wouldn’t give Pittsburgh a starting left fielder for him. Taillon is not Cole
Him plus Frazier would be nice.
Why? They are looking for prospects with a high ceiling. Why would you give up those two for a pitcher coming off their 2nd TJS?
Apparently the Yankees offseason plan for their rotation is to get 2-5 as TJS reclamation projects.
I don’t see them giving up anywhere near what people think for this guy, but who knows?
If they do, Adam Frazier should come with.
Possible and feasible Tailon destinations
TB
NYY
NYM
SD
Because of Tailon’s injury history, I suspect teams will be reluctant to trade a top 50 prospect for Tailon. Their risk aversion can mean the Pirates might need to look again for player’s who might breakout soon. Both the buyer and seller must consider the risks. Tailoon is Pittsburgh’s last gold coin. The team needs to spend it wisely.
Angels
I would assume you can remove the padres from this list. I’m sure if they had interest it would of been discussed when they acquired Musgrove.
Plus they already have 8 quality starting pitching options.
Preller did say he wanted up to 10 starters so who knows for sure.
One might think that the Padres are done…. But someone mentioned the Padres and another trade is not too improbable. The Padres intend to surpass the dominant franchise over the last 5 years. It’s a matter of maxing out an opportunity for the Padres.
The blue jays make the most sense. Top 3 rated farm system by Baseball America update that just came out. They also have 2 top rated catchers in the system and 5 in total including Janssen, Kirk and McGuire at the major league level.
It’s been reported many times that’s Pittsburgh would love to target a catching “prospect” so that rules out Janssen and McGuire (the later wound not be of much interest to Pitts anyway). I’m not dealing Kirk if I am the jays but I’m for sure considering a package around one of Moreno(8th ranked in Toronto’s system) or Adam’s(#23 ranked)
Everyone is asking for Moreno and Toronto can afford to move him with that much catching depth so something like him and another decent prospect would be fair IMO. I’m sure Pitts would want a pitching prospect if they r moving Tallion so someone like Kloffenstein (#10 ranked) may work – another guy a lot of teams have asked for based on recent reports).
I suspect that too rich for Toronto but maybe Adam’s and Kloffenstein would would?
Pittsburgh fans?
I have to agree with you. I feel that the Blue Jays are best positioned to make this move. My question for you is would you rather Tailon or hold off and try to lure T Walker or Odorizzi?
Pirates just want talent. Top 100 done. Don’t want to part with that no problem. How about 2 or 3 top 10 to 20 teenagers? Best deal wins. Doesn’t have to be a catcher. Like to be sure. 3 pitchers or 3 outfielders or lil mix of everything. Doesn’t matter. But don’t offer enough, then no trade.
If the price is right, the Giants should take a flyer on him. They are still looking for starters.
Catcher Jacob Stallings could be traded. He’s not going to bring back a huge return, but he’s projected to be better than most free agent catchers, so he could draw some interest.
Odd-Stallings will not be traded because they are so thin at catching at the ML level and he was actually their best player last year.
I agree. I also think he is worth more to the Pirates than other teams with his reputation for working with pitchers.. With the amount of control he has left, he seems like a good candidate to move from starter to backup as he ages and be an additional coach to the young pitchers who will be coming up.
Rebuilds usually involve trading your best players, unless they are young and project to be part of your core when the team emerges from the rebuild. I don’t think Stallings fits that bill.
You might also keep veterans who will help develop the young players left on the team. This is arguably especially true for catchers helping a young pitching staff. I’m honestly not sure if Stallngs is that type of catcher.
Odd-I basically agree with Southern Buc.Now If he were an all star and they could get a lot for him then fine,trade him.
You and I know that a good catcher is a key to having a decent team and I do not think that the Pirates want to get any worse than their equivalent 51 wins from last season.
They have no one to replace him.
Stallings won’t be traded. No team would pay enough to get him. Pirates are going to have rookie starters and a bull pen full of them. Stallings absolutely makes pitchers better. Excellent game caller and framer. Future manager if he chooses that path.
I can’t help myself.
Your last comment on Stallings is prescient as you may or may not know that his father was a long time basketball coach at the University of Pittsburgh so managing is in his blood.
GM you are not just another pretty face.
I could totally have a bromance with you. 90 percent of people hate my comments. Stallings is definitely going to be a manager now though. I am doubling down on that one. I love him as a catcher. I would rather have a pitching coach in the field then a bat first catcher.
I think a good rule change is to have so many catcher visits and so many pitching coach separate. To speed up game. I mean you only have so many so if the catcher wants to talk then the coach is waddling out. Where the catcher just has to jog 60 feet. Give the catcher like 5 short talks. Pitching coach 3 longer ones. Or something.
Long time fan who wanted the Bucs to pull off the band-aid for years. The issue was they had to satisfy the fans.
Keep Taillon until he pitches a few games to answer health worries. If they can get a top 50-75 pick and a couple more people then make the move. Kuhl and Brault to be move at the break.
They need this years and next years #1 overall.
Why wait if they get the right offer now?
Injury concerns? Two time TJ recipient? Boston is interested!
Award ceremony.
ANNOUNCER: And tonight’s recipient of a third Tommy John Surgery is (opens the envelope)…Jameson Taillon. Jameson is not here to accept his award as he is en route to Boston to sign a multi-year contract with the Red Sox.
TWINS…get…this…done!! You have loads of top end totally blocked prospects you can deal, it’s time to GET SERIOUS!
An injured pitcher visits the doctor.
DOCTOR: Son, I’ve reviewed your x-rays and have some bad news.
PITCHER: Bad news?
DOCTOR: Yes. You have a torn UCL and need Tommy John Surgery.
PITCHER: Oh no! This is the worst thing that could ever happen.
DOCTOR: It’s not good but there are worse surgeries.
PITCHER: Worse surgeries? I’m a free agent and won’t be able to pitch for at least a year. What surgery could possibly be worse?
DOCTOR: Mitch Haniger Surgery.
The Yankees are in talks with the Pirates for Taillon. Luis Gil and another prospect are on the table. So Taillon might be going to the Yankees.
Seems like about the right price. Kid (Gil) has a huge arm.
Come on, get desprate and give up Jaason Dominguez (yes I know that’s a huge stretch and that might be an understatement, but I’d lose my mind if that’s what the Pirates got).
Jasson would be possible ONLY if a third team was involved, but, in a much larger deal. otherwise.. hope you don’t get stuck with Little Deivi…
Not a chance. Gil Wells Gomez Abreu will get the deal done
No Yankees are not giving up Wells, Abreu or Gomez. Thinking Gil, Anthony Volpe and another piece. Pittsburgh GM is looking for guys who wouldn’t have to be placed on their 40 man roster right away.
Not dealing Volpe! Stop playing armchair GM. Trust me, Volpe not in the deal. Gil could be, Abreu maybe. Don’t be shocked if Andujar isn’t in it with Abreu for instance. You heard it hear!
Think Florial has to be a part of the deal
Gil & Florial would get it done. Gil is a great prospect while Florial has received a lot of press, he doesn’t really project to be a star. He’s a doubles hitter with a good glove. They’d be fine if the gave him up.
I think Gil and some other prospects would get it done. Maybe another in the 20-30 range and some other not well known.
It’s fun to dream big. Let us know when you wake up!
Not saying it isn’t a pipe dream and I’m not saying it’s realistic. Just that I’d be estatic if it did happen.
Yes, this was meant to be sarcastic. I highly, highly doubt the Pirates will get Jaason Dominguez, but it would be fun.
Why keep pretending? The Pirates should just designate themselves a Triple-A affiliate.
If I was Pirates I would be willing to take back Ottavino’s salary in order to get a better prospect package.
Taillon & Rodriguez to Yankees for Ottavino, Florial, Medina & Gomez
This is not happening. The pirates once gave away 2 top 10 prospects just to shed 15 million.
Despite his two T.J. procedures, SP Jameson Taillon should have multiple suitors among contending teams. He’s still just 29, has been very good to excellent when healthy and comes with two more years of team control. His last procedure was in August of 2019 so he figures to be ready to roll when camp opens next month.
Taillon may have a scar or two on his right arm but it also comes with some fairly minimal mileage for a 29-year old SP. Taillon produced a 4.9 bWAR in 2018 when he made 32 starts. In comparison recently signed and often injured FA Garrett Richards will be 33 in May. Richards best season with the Angels was a 4.4 bWAR effort back in 2014 and the only time he posted 32 starts was in 2015. Richards just inked a $10MM guaranteed deal with the Red Sox that includes an equal 2022 club option with some base escalators. Taillon will earn $2.25MM in 2021 and will be arb-eligible again in 2022.
The White Sox were rumored to be interested in Richards before he signed with the ‘other’ Sox. I’d be surprised if they aren’t among the multiple suitors for Taillon. With the Pirates clearly in rebuild mode, they figure to prioritize top prospects who don’t necessarily need to be MLB ready. The White Sox have concentrated on adding some high school arms in recent drafts and have a few who might entice the Pirates in a trade for Taillon.
Finish it, Yankees. Get him.
This isn’t about a Pirates rebuild. This is about Bob Nutting not wanting to lose money in 2021. So the payroll will be embarrassingly low. The payroll will creep up over the next three years and fans will be duped Into thinking Nutting will spend more money to lift the team into a contender status. It won’t happen. The Nutting business model he inherited from his father Ogden does not allow for paying good people good money. It will be the same vicious cycle. And in the meantime Ben Cherrington will move on bolstered by his efforts. It’s always about profit for the Nutting Empire whether it’s newspapers, phone book companies, ski resorts or the Pirates. Always.
Keep dreaming Yankees not giving up Jasson for anyone not named DeGrom or Beiber. I wouldn’t make a deal with the Pirates anyway they F ED up originally in the Cole deal costing them a WS championship already.
Nyfan-Who screwed up on Cole-the Pirates or the Yankees?
If Yankees wanted Cole they should of gave the pirates a better package.
Bob loves his money but I don’t think the 2 million to Taillon is causing him to lose sleep.
Hope Kyle MacDonald gets included in the mix.
Believe it when I see it
If the Yankees don’t get him and he is indeed traded I would be shocked
This guy doesn’t move the needle that much for me. Seriously who else could Yankees get? Is Kyle Henricks available?
The Cubs are NOT going to trade Hendricks, they are still trying to compete for a division title. That plus the fact that he’d be super expensive for any team trying to get him
True. Absurd as it is, Cubs can still boast they’ve handed out the richest FA contract in the NL Central this winter ($1.5M to Austin Romine). Clearly no other team in the division is even trying
Here is the trade: Yanks send Andujar and who has had injury and defense issues but high upside bat and a decent pitching prospect such as Abreu for Taillon coming off second Tommy John.
Where would Pittsburgh put Andujar? They have Ke’Bryan Hayes at third base and Colin Moran manning first base. There’s no DH so therefore no place for Andujar. Pirates would never take him
2nd base. Same spot the yanks were considering him to play when he was going to come back.
Padam-The one place that the Pirates are fairly strong is up the middle infielders.Plus,Andujar was a below average fielding third baseman so he will certainly be no better at second base.
Pin-It is a possibility if MLB decides to use the DH in the NL soon.
Maybe these teams have an idea as to when that decision will be madeThey could be waiting until then to complete any trade.
Moran doesn’t have upside like Andujar.
The Pirates have Mason Martin behind Moran who has upside.
Yanks would get outbid.
Taillon is going to cost the Yankees Gil plus another lower level prospect or two. I don’t think the Pirates would want Andujar; they are looking for guys a little younger than that and less warts. But if NY ends up offering Gil & Andujar for Taillon, Ben might end up accepting that.
For me, as a Yankees fan, there are no assurances here with the injury and just how pitchers we’ve traded for in recent years haven’t adjusted well to the stadium. Therefore, solely on a Yankee fan bias, do not trade Jasson Dominguez for this man. Anyone else that Cashman thinks is necessary, ok, but please not Dominguez
Yankees are interested in or linked to a player
Yankee fans: I’m sure Frazier or andujar would get it done
Relax pal. Yanks are not trading Jasson. Don’t listen to these arm chairs gm’s who hate on the Yanks. Taillon is a huge risk and he will get a decent prospect return but no bonafide big time prospects for a guy coming off two Tommy John surgeries. Too much of a risk.
Enough with the Andujar and Frazier BS. Andujar is a toss in at this point, he has no real trade value for New York until he can prove other wise and something tells me they like Frazier in their outfield and I do too. He’s ready to rock, this is his breakout year. Taillon would command a couple of good top 20 prospects and maybe one of their fourth outfielders. That’s a respectful haul for a 29 year old coming off his second TJ surgery.
The Pirates are in full rebuild mode. As such, they are prioritizing the acquisition of younger prospects with high ceilings, not MLB or even near MLB ready talent. This is mostly what they received for SP Joe Musgrove in their 3-team trade with the Padres and Mets and for 1B Josh Bell in their deal with the Nationals. They hope to get even more prospects for Jameson Taillon. Acquiring 2 experienced MLB players in Miguel Andujar and Clint Frazier who have each spent parts of the last 4 seasons on the Yankees active roster and will play most of 2021 as 26-year olds is hardly what the Pirates are seeking. If Andujar and/or Frazier are involved it would likely only occur in another multi-team swap where the Pirates would still net prospects.
Oh no, not James Taillon; we thought he’d be a Pirate forever (lack of exclamation or any emotion intended).
If the Yankees or some other team don’t give up a few high upside prospects he might be a pirate forever. He was in same draft as Machado and Harper. They hit free agency years ago and Taillon still has 2 years left. If he can’t be traded and pirates feel good about his arm offer him a buy low team friendly extension. Make the guy with 2 TJ’s say no to tens of millions of guaranteed money. If he says no trade him this summer.
Dodgers could ease him into the rotation.
RHP Andre Jackson, power OF DJ Peters, and a low level lotto ticket?
This sounds like Tampa all over it. They love to take chances like this
I agree. They fleeced the pirates last time though. Pirates may not go back down that road
Idk the injury history scares me away and I’m afraid he’d command a huge package. Idk what the Yanks should give up thats fair
When have the pirates ever got a huge package for anyone ?
Well, I’m not going to worry about the Yankees overcommitting. If anything they try their level best to sell short on everyone, which is why they’ve consistently lost out on talent.
I foresee a package surrounding pitching prospects, unless the Yankees try to get Frazier, whom the Yankees have liked for a while.
Tallion will not command a huge return, but if he does, he will get it from some team other than the Yankees. They wouldn’t give up Dominguez or Torres in recent trades for ace-level pitchers and top-tier players, they’re certainly not doing it in this case.
Makes me think of Kevin Brown.
Baseball trade values has Taillon at a value of 16.6. Yanks would have to give up players like Volpe, Yajure, and Breau. Yanks will want the Bucs to take someone on the 40 man roster, 2 would be ideal!
I’m not sure they give up Volpe, and I don’t see the Pirates seeking him with their existing farm (Gonzales, Cruz,etc). I really think that they will acquire pitching in lieu of position players, especially considering they just dumped their two main starters.
You might be right, Cashman will give up players like Yajure, Abreu, Contreas, Gil, Gomez, King, Medina, Peraza, and Florial. All are on the 40 man roster
The Pirates should just play short-handed this year.
My suggestion is that they play without a catcher.
Have the pitcher focus on hitting the umpire, so the ball doesn’t roll away.
lol
The Pirates should be drafting in the top 3 picks the next 3-4 years. They might be stacked by 2030. Haha
One thing about the Yankees is they rarely tip their hand about what they are up to. Cashman is not trading any Frazier or top prospects ( especially Dominguez ) for Taillon. How do I know? I am sure the Reds would have gladly taken Dominguez for Castlllo (and he is more of a sure thing then Taillon).
Always wondered if Neil Walker was NOT from Pittsburgh, if they would have even drafted him in the first round. I agree with the other post that said Walker was an average player with a bad back.
However, if he was available in the first round and the Pirates DID NOT select him, the villagers would have had a torchlight parade to the north side (where the stadiums sit).
It will certainly be interesting to see what this year’s rotation looks like. Good bet they also trade Rodrigues. He would be selling high after last season in the bullpen.
Trade is done
The Pirates don’t even have a MLB team on the field. Still, they become competitive before the Tigers: