March 8: SNY’s Andy Martino tweets that MLB’s most recent proposal does not include any movement on the pre-arbitration bonus pool. The league is still offering a flat $30MM pool with no increases over the five-year term of the agreement. The MLBPA had lowered its ask from a $115MM peak to $80MM at last check, though the union was also believed to be seeking annual increases to the size of the pool.
March 7, 10:52 pm: Jeff Passan of ESPN writes that if an agreement were to come together Tuesday, Spring Training camps could open as soon as Friday. However, he cautions that the gaps between the two sides remain significant enough to “temper expectations” about a deal coming to fruition.
8:50 pm: MLB offered to raise the base luxury tax threshold to $228MM next season, with that figure rising to $238MM over the course of the CBA, Drellich reports. That’s a fairly notable jump over MLB’s previous offers to start that mark at $220MM and rise to $230MM by 2026, and it’d be an $18MM year-over-year jump from last season’s $210MM mark.
However, Drellich cautions that the league’s offer to move on the CBT came with “major strings attached.” Those conditions aren’t clear, although MLB has sought a 14-team playoff field and a draft for international amateurs in past proposals and could again be trying to get the MLBPA’s approval on either or both topics. The union has been seeking to increase the CBT to $238MM next season and move to $263MM by the end of the CBA.
8:29 pm: After yesterday’s proposal from the MLB Players Association to the league was met with hostility, lead negotiators reconvened today, reports Evan Drellich of the Athletic (Twitter link). They’re expected to meet again Tuesday, and MLB has suggested those discussions could be of particular importance.
Drellich reports that the league views tomorrow as the deadline for a new collective bargaining agreement to be in place to conduct a 162-game season (and with it, a full year of salary and service time for players). He and colleague Ken Rosenthal add that the league has informed the union it expects to cancel another week’s worth of games if no deal is done. Commissioner Rob Manfred already announced the cancelation of the first two series of the regular season last week, and the league had previously been adamant those games would not be made up. It now seems MLB is willing to entertain that possibility, although only if a new CBA is finalized on Tuesday.
This marks at least the second (arguably the third) time the league has imposed a deadline for an agreement to avoid the loss of regular season games. MLB had previously set February 28 at 11:59 pm EST as a marker to avoid delays to Opening Day. With the parties beginning to close the gap in negotiations that evening, the league pushed back that deadline to March 1 at 5:00 pm EST. Ultimately, no agreement was reached — the league claimed the union upped its demands overnight, while the MLBPA accused the league of exaggerating the previous night’s progress in the first place — and Manfred announced the cancelation of the first two series that evening.
The union expressed its displeasure with that decision. MLB had unilaterally instituted the lockout and set the end of February deadline for an agreement, while the MLBPA maintained that further negotiations should proceed without game cancelations. It’s not clear whether the union views tomorrow’s league-imposed deadline in the same manner. We’re a bit more than three weeks from the originally scheduled Opening Day, March 31. It seems likely that with those first two series already canceled, the path to 162 games would involve reworking the schedule and/or instituting doubleheaders rather than simply putting those games back on the docket.
Even if the lockout lingers to a point where everyone agrees a 162-game season is unfeasible, it stands to reason the union would embark on some efforts to recoup pay and service time lost. MLB instituted the lockout, after all, and their initial game cancelations were imposed over the objections of the union. MLBPA lead negotiator Bruce Meyer stated in the immediate aftermath of Manfred’s announcement it was the union’s position that players should receive compensation for games lost. As MLBTR’s Steve Adams noted last week, a battle regarding service time could be even more important than any dispute over pay.
Whether the parties will be able to come to an agreement tomorrow remains to be seen, but the recent tenor hasn’t been promising. There’s still a sizable gap on issues such as the competitive balance tax and the bonus pool for pre-arbitration players. Rosenthal wrote yesterday the league is willing to move in the players’ favor on the CBT in exchange for concessions by the union in other areas, but MLB’s other demands aren’t clear.
The league presented a formal counterproposal to the PA’s most recent offer at today’s call, reports Bob Nightengale of USA Today (Twitter link). According to Nightengale, that “(included) flexibility on several issues,” but it doesn’t seem the union viewed it that favorably. One player involved in discussions tells Rosenthal the offer remained too tilted towards MLB’s interests, while another said he was “done getting (his) hopes up” for an agreement.
Bleedblue_22
I’m starting to think that there might not be a season if these two can’t get it together tomorrow.
Tcsbaseball
We all know they’re not getting a deal done tomorrow
Please, Hammer. Don't hurt 'em.
I thought “the last chance for a 162 game season” was over a week ago.
afsooner02
This is the “last last, seriously we mean it this time last” session
Fever Pitch Guy
This labor dispute is just like the fight between the two sisters at Disney World. The only thing missing is the vomit.
Captain Judge99
Didn’t Manfred Putin want a 145 game season all along? Class is in session. Quiet please. No hall pass. This is legit now. Time for everyone to put their big boy pants on for the last time. I promise. Smh
AzTigersfan
Turkey and baseball don’t go together
BuddyBoy
There will be a season. Literally zero chance there’s not.
Yankee Clipper
This is like when you see the parents that warn their kids for the last time in the store, but it’s the third last time……and then they start counting “one, two, you better not let me get to three”
Redwolves3
Don’t hold your breath on MLBPA agreeing to a new CBA Tuesday. They’re too concerned about following the Boras playbook.
Owners continue to address (and give into) player proposals, make changes players have never had before (to their overall benefit), and yet players still want everything their way.
Now (latest proposal) the owners are offering to play a full 162 game schedule, full pay (not prorated pay) and a year’s service time, increasing CBT to $228 million.
If the MLBPA can’t agree to the owners latest offer then it’s obvious MLBPA isn’t concerned about reaching an agreement or care less about the fans. They’d rather cut off their nose in spite of their face.
If MLBPA can’t negotiate “in good faith” Tuesday hopefully the owners will tell the players this is their best and final offer. Let the players go to their Arizona facility and continue their workouts. Maybe then the players will come to their senses and realize what they’re losing; the game they say they love, their livelihood, and their fans.
Remember the old saying “don’t bite the hand that feeds you” … the owners and fans.
Reds Fan In MS
Redwolves3 speaks the truth. Now, the cheap owners are to blame also, but the players demands are just ridiculous. With this new proposal they’ve made huge gains since 2016. If they can’t see that then they’re not negotiating in good faith. Let them follow Boros down.
stymeedone
@redwolves
The owners offer of full pay and full service time is not really a concession by the owners, as it is what would have happened without the lockout, which was the owners decision (as their did not want a strike towards the end of the season). It does not give them anything that they did not have before.
Pads Fans
Key numbers:
30% increase in revenue for MLB owners
20% decrease in salaries for MLB Players
There are no other issues. Those are the key points.
So answer this, where exactly does anything that MLB has offered start to close that gap?
A 30% increase in CBT would be around $255 million with increases to $273 million by the end of this CBA.
A 30% increase in the minimum would be $700k with increases to $747.5k by the end of this CBA
Need both of those to start to close that gap.
At this point the owners have lost the general public. Sentiment is squarely in the players camp. The owners are not negotiating in good faith and they keep creating fake deadlines as a PR move. There is no deadline.
The MLB owners locked out the players. This is not a strike. The owners cancelled the games. This is 100% on the owners. Saying anything else is a lie.
Chisox378
Maybe Im wrong but it looks more like the owners have budged and compromised on nearly everything while the players have not andnonly seek more and more.
JoeBrady
Pads Fans
Key numbers:
30% increase in revenue for MLB owners
=========================================
Key concept-the players rejected a % of the gross. Once you do that, you lose any right to it. Same as in the movies. An actor can take $10M, or he can take $1M and a percentage. But he can’t take the $10M and then complain when the movie is a hit.
If the players want a percentage, like the other major sports, then that is what they should bargain for.
fljay73
A list actors if they get a few hit movies in a row can just ask for a higher salary each time. Owners really lowballed the union with their first few proposals. If the owners would have been at least 50% higher across the board from their first proposal a new CBA would have been in place by now.
Ma4170
20% decrease in players salaries? From when? And you’re operating under the premise that the larger percentage of salary vs revenue the players were getting a few years was fair… whereas clearly the owners did not
Here’s the thing… owners of a business can invest revenues anywhere they want in their business, it doesn’t all have to go to salaries… the players are more than fairly compensated, way more than fair actually
Patrick OKennedy
JoeBrady- the two sides never really narrowed down exactly what was being offered to the players in terms of a share of revenues. There was some bickering about what would be included and what MLB would have to provide as proof of revenue. Those questions were never answered before the subject was dropped.
Just because the parties don’t have an agreement on a revenue split doesn’t mean that the players can’t ask for more money when times are good. They are entitled to request that under the fair labor standards act that governs collective bargaining.
Sure, there is irony in the fact that the players don’t want revenue sharing, but they want a larger share of the revenues.
Lloyd Emerson
Another “deadline”…
Lloyd Emerson
Another “best and final offer” to follow…
RoastGobot
Let’s do three or four more rounds of best and final offers cuz that’s how negotiations work time to put on your big boy final offer pants not the little boy final offer pants we had on last week now we need big boy final offer pants ok guys super swear
stevecohenMVP
Cancel the season. I’m done
BuddyBoy
Good. Now please be done on here too so we don’t have to read how you’re done and going home with your ball.
VegasSDfan
See you Sally, do you need some tissues?
mike127
You’ll be back……in a couple of hours.
ham77
Hostility? Were there punches thrown? Maybe a nice old fashioned cage match can help break the stalemate. They could sell tickets and split the proceeds.
kellyoubreisgod
Union will have to get on board with a 14 team playoff bracket for any chance at an agreement. Just get it done ffs
FSF
If that’s what it takes, I’d rather they cancel the season.
BuddyBoy
You’d rather they cancel the season than have a 14 team playoff. Get a grip
FSF
You have your wishes, I have mine. With this format, it won’t be long before a sub .500 team wins the championship. If you think that’s a good thing, then YOU “get a grip’!
kellyoubreisgod
Funny thing is that it was pretty close to happening with the Astros in 2020
Please, Hammer. Don't hurt 'em.
Sub .500 teams won’t win a championship. That’s a complete over exaggeration some people who hate expanded playoffs falsely make all the time. How many sub .500 teams made the playoffs in the 16 team playoff bracket? I don’t think there were any. There may have been one of two .500 teams who snagged a 15th or 16th seed and they were all immediately eliminated in the first round. Now with a playoff bracket 2 teams smaller than that there is supposed to be some kind of epidemic of losing teams winning championships all of a sudden? I don’t buy it. Worst case scenario you might have one or two .500 teams who get invited to the playoffs and eliminated right away once in awhile. It didn’t even come close to happening during the 16 team playoff schedule and that was the shortest, flukiest, anything could happen season ever. Now all of a sudden with 2 fewer playoff teams than that people act like it’s going to be some issue where losing teams are going to commonly sneak in and then have no rest because they are wildcard team’s but still knock off well rested and much better teams who are coming off a bye. That’s not going to happen. I know the playoffs are a crapshoot to some degree but they aren’t that much of a crapshoot. When was the last time the 4th best non-division winner had a losing record anyway? Now it is going to happen all the time and they are going to stage deep playoff runs?
FSF
You’re just making my point. Even 10 is kind of an issue but I can buy the notion that you are getting at least all pretty decent teams in the playoffs. It would give me much more comfort if it was just straight up the 5 best records in each league making it even more legitimate in terms of the best and most deserving teams making it in.
As for 2020 well, that’s a throwaway season. Everybody says so except Dodger fans. Didn’t ya hear?
FSF
Adding 4 additional teams to the mix undoubtedly will lead to sub .500 teams getting into the playoffs in certain years and it wouldn’t surprise me to see a couple of them in any given year and even 3 in freakish years. You’re saying those teams have no chance?
Because if we can escrow a bet, I’ll literally bet you a $1 million that sub 500 team makes the playoffs in the first five years of the format. The math just lends itself to it. You can look all day at historical NBA and NHL standing for guidance on that. There may be 16 teams but plenty of times more than 2 get in with sub .500 records.
Brew88
Agree with much of your takes on 14 team playoff FSF.. We hear from MLB that it will prevent tanking but I see little evidence this will be the case. If anything, we’ll see good teams settle for mediocracy knowing they can still get into playoffs at .500-.525 (ex Lakers). That means more rest days for stars, less competition during regular season as we see in the now meaningless NBA regular season.
Dock_Elvis
Hammer..if the majority of teams make a playoff format doesn’t some team mathematically need to finish below .500? It’s been theoretically possible to win a world series with a sub .500 record since the 3 division format came in. We’ve had some very weak divisions. I believe when St.louis won in 2007 they weren’t too far over.
Cosmo2
A 14 team playoffs ruins it for me. Kills the sport. If they agree to 14 teams my days of fandom are over.
Please, Hammer. Don't hurt 'em.
If anything it’s the division champions that have the better chance of having losing records. This playoff expansion doesn’t add more division champions. It’s going to add more wildcard teams who get in based purely on best record. The wildcard teams aren’t going to come from divisions like that. I’m not saying you won’t sometimes have teams with records around .500 occasionally make the playoffs. That will probably happen. The idea that there is going to be some kind of problem with “sub .500 teams winning the championship” is way overblown. I doubt it will ever happen. Even if it ever did it would be freakishly rare. Far too rare for it to come close to ruining the sport.
Motown is My Town
Both the NBA and NHL have 16 teams qualify for their playoffs, so why is this an issue for MLB? An idea I have for MLB to improve its overall schedule and ensure competition is do any with divisions in both leagues and revise into 15 teams AL & NL, go to a 144-game schedule and have the top 8 place teams in each league make the playoffs. Then have a balanced schedule where each team in the respective leagues play one another 9 times (126 games) plus play 18 interleague games to reach the 144 games. Interleague play would have 3 4-game series and 2 3-game series and would rotate over 3 years with (for example) the old AL East playing the old NL east in yr. 1, old NL Central in yr. 2 and old NL west in yr. 3. This would apply to all teams. Furthermore, the season would start on April 15th and end September 15th, with the playoffs running from September 18th – October 25th. The 1st week of playoffs being the initial round, 2nd week the league semi-finals, 3rd week the league finals and 4th week the World Series. Very radical idea I know and the majority of you will hate this, but would shorten the season, bring more revenue into the sport and make the season and playoffs more interesting.
CujoMarlin
FSF – although I don’t necessarily agree with you, that is as good of a reply to Buddyboy as you hope for.
Please, Hammer. Don't hurt 'em.
I don’t hate the idea of as many playoff teams as NBA and NHL. I love the idea of a totally balanced schedule. They can still keep the divisions and have a balanced schedule. I think that would be a better idea than scrapping the division system altogether. I would just set it up so that every team plays every other team at least 5 times but no more than 6. If it’s 6 times it’s 3 at home and 3 on the road. For the 5 game teams it would be half and half 2&3 game home road splits. Just make sure all the teams in the same league face off 6 times each. That way they play everyone in the league equal games at home and on the road. They will never shorten the season to 144 games. That’s just giving away free money. It also makes it impossible for anyone to break records anymore. No one is going to be able to challenge counting stats when they are trying to beat someone who had 18 more games than them to add in stats. I think the league with the biggest playoff problem is college football. Over 300 teams but only 4 teams make the playoffs? NBA has 90% fewer teams than college football but quadruple as many playoff teams. In a 300 team league there should be no problem getting 64 teams in the playoffs. That’s still only 20%. Right now less than 2% of college teams make the playoffs. To make matters worse there is no real system in how they get in. Writers just get to choose which teams they think are the best 2%. Talk about a rigged system.
Richard Alicea
The idea of a below 500 team entering the playoffs is real. Plus, from a players perspective it would prevent teams from loading up for the stretch run since they can get in with a below 500 record. Not good, I want teams that have a winning record engaged in the playoffs, this also forces teams to acquire good players when they are in the cusp of entering the playoffs.
Cosmo2
162 game season. TOTALLY different sports with differing parity. So many problems caused by just under half the league making it in besides just a sub-.500 team winning it all. Good bye to watching the best teams duke it out in August. They’ll have long since clinched. Have fun watching 2 mediocre teams playing where two top teams would be. Have fun with 14 teams but it will ruin the sport for me. Makes the regular season virtually useless. Best teams will be sitting their players by August (resting players is arguably a bigger advantage than one extra home game in a series)..
Yankee Clipper
Yes, thank you, Cosmo, well said. I agree with your assessment of the 14-team playoff system. Bad for the sport and does far more harm to “competitive balance “ than any CBT raising could.
Wisdom shared
Just to post the obvious, but if players, owners, fans aren’t terrified of a sub-500 team not only making the playoffs, but also eliminating top-seeded teams, then why are they proposing a ghost win, why propose that teams can choose who they want to face in round one.? If no one is worried about sub-500 teams in the playoffs, then keep the status quo in place and enable ALL teams to have an equal opportunity, instead of stacking the deck against teams they let into the playoffs for monetary gain.
beyou02215
Why do I not feel confident?
kellyoubreisgod
Union: We want competitive balance
Also Union: Let’s let the big markets spend up to 240M while making it tougher for small markets to rack up top prospects
dclivejazz
@ Kellyetc The union wants teams to make an effort to be competitive, large-market teams and small..
stymeedone
@dclive
How does creating a bigger gap between large market payrolls, and small market payrolls allow things to be more competitive? Not only do they want the big markets to have room to increase payroll, they want to reduce revenue sharing, making it harder for small markets.
Catuli Carl
@stymeedone
It doesn’t. It just allows the superstars to make more money at the expense of competition.
Yankee Clipper
Exactly right. 14 teams equals more garbage, not more competition. The only reason people are on board with this is their mediocre team is now afforded a chance to be cheap and make the playoffs.
larry48
No ML team should get revenue sharing if they spend less than a set amount like 80,000,000. per year or prorate it.
Cosmo2
The MLPA’s version of teams making an “effort” seems very similar to teams overpaying players. Most teams can’t afford a 200 million dollar payroll.
JoeBrady
dclivejazz
The union wants teams to make an effort to be competitive
======================================
And the best way to do that is to give less premium draft picks, less revenue sharing, and much higher big-market spending?
There is absolutely no way that works, and everyone on both sides know it. Most people don’t even pretend anymore.
Pads Fans
How does that stop there being competitive balance? Who was in the WS last season? How many small market teams have made the playoffs since 2001? All of them?
Some other things to keep in mind are that revenue is up substantially. The Padres, one of the 3 smallest markets in MLB, have enough revenue today to pass the CBT threshold and they have two $30 million AAV players.
The Pirates are over $300 million in revenue. The Rays, Marlins, and Guardians are all at or over $260 million in revenue.
CBT player salaries, which includes benefits, per diem, and travel expenses for the 40 man roster, can be 50% of revenue and the teams will still be profitable companies. All you need to do to verify that is look at the financial statements of the two teams that are owned by publicly traded companies.
That is also a fair amount for the players to be making of the total revenue of the sport. They are the product and there is no MLB without them.
That means teams like the Rays, Marlins, and Guardians can afford to spend $125+ million per season. It means teams like the Pirates, Rockies, Twins, and Reds can afford to spend $150 million. It means teams like the Braves, Phillies, Angels, and Blue Jays can afford to spend $250 million. That doesn’t even address the teams like the Yankees, Mets, Cubs, Dodgers, Giants, and Red Sox that can afford to spend much more.
Starting the CBT at $238 million in 2022, which is the MLBPA proposal as of today, is in no way going to have an effect on competitive balance.
Deleted Userrr
Who is the Padres’ 2nd $30m AAV player? Machado is one.
CursedRangers
Sources – Ken Rosenthal: MLB offered to start CBT at $228 million, going to $238 million by end of deal. But rest of proposal not yet known, and league’s increase is said to have major strings attached. Players’ last known ask was $238m, finishing at $263m. MLB was at $220m previously.
CursedRangers
^tweeted by Evan Drellich
kellyoubreisgod
That’s pretty good, and if the union is on board with a 14 team playoffs then it could be even more.
daveineg
I wonder what the vote would be among all 1,200 players on the owners proposal if they actually took a secret ballot. Don’t kid yourself. Guys like Scherzer and Miller and the union president are messing with the careers of a lot of young players. The marginal player has no voice in this because so they remain silent or they simply echo the guys with the power, who are all well paid established veterans because they want to be accepted by those veterans in the clubhouse. It’s all toxic to the game.
FSF
Yeah, because the owners have no part in playing with the lives of young players and not giving a damn about what happens to them. Get real!
Catuli Carl
@FSF
You should change your name to FFS instead of FSF because ffs man, “playing with the lives”? “Not giving a damn?”
They are paying them hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars to play a game for a living.
Dock_Elvis
They’re being paid hundreds and thousands to be world class entertainers. They aren’t playing checked at the kitchen table. These teams are worth billions now built off their “play”
Catuli Carl
Yes, most MLB teams are valued in the 1-4 billion dollar range. That doesn’t mean they’re making billions in profit. An MLB team is a business.
Their “play” is the main attraction, but it isn’t what has made those teams so valuable. A small market team that has good “play” for 5 years in a row doesn’t magically become a $5 billion team. There are many many other factors and variables from a business and market perspective that have gone into the valuation of these teams.
And again, the yankees may be worth $5 billion as a business, but that doesn’t mean they’re making anywhere near $5 billion/year in profits.
Pads Fans
No team is valued at less than $1.5 billion. Several are over $5 billion. Yankees and Dodgers are over $6 billion.
Even more important, MLB revenue is over $12 billion. That is a 30% increase over the last 5 years. Over that same period player salaries went down 20%.
In the NFL, NBA, NHL, and MLS the players are guaranteed 48.8% to 51% of total revenue.
Are you trying to say that MLB players do not deserve the same?
Halo11Fan
Yes. They don’t deserve the same. The expenses are not nearly the same. People talk about revenue as if has meaning. It doesn’t.
How many hundreds of millions of dollars do these sports lose on players who suck. And what’s amazing is the players union thinks that argument has merit.
wright1970
The marginal players have no voice?? Dont they all get 1 vote?? There is more underpaid players than there is overpaid stars….
stymeedone
@Wright1970
They will, but not until the negotiating superstars actually put it to a vote. Kinda a McConnell move. If it never goes to a vote, it can’t pass. No matter how many are in favor of it.
Pads Fans
You do realize that the players VOTE on who they want to represent them on that executive committee, right?
You also realize that before they even started these negotiations that all players voted on the points that they wanted to emphasize, right?
Didn’t think so. You don’t seem to educate yourself before commenting.
Catuli Carl
There are exactly zero underpaid MLB players.
Halo11Fan
If it’s based on what a player is worth, of course there are.
There are a lot of irrational opinions on both sides.
larry48
The average non-super star doesn’t make a million dollars total and doesn’t play the 10 years for full retirement. Check the average length of MLB careers, The average career is 2.7 years and only makes the league minimum.
Cosmo2
“Worth” is a completely subjective term.
Pads Fans
There are exactly 100% underpaid MLB players.
While revenue was going up 30%, player salaries went down more than 20% over the past 5 years.
Until they make up that gap, all players are underpaid.
Deleted Userrr
What about Trevor Bauer? Is he underpaid?
VegasSDfan
It would be like 900-300 in favor of approval
Pads Fans
Have you seen ANY players recently that are in favor of accepting the MLB proposal? Didn’t think so.
Pads Fans
Those player reps were voted on by the players. ALL of this was laid out prior to the negotiations. With the exception of ONE player at the end of his career, not one player has spoken up in opposition to the MLBPA position.
The young players are the ones that stand the most to gain from what the MLBPA is asking for and from their social media posts they are all in favor of what the union is doing.
Maybe start following a few players on social media so you know what they are saying.
mike156
MLB is hoping to make players pay for whatever concessions they have to make by cancelling games so they don’t have to pay the players for a full season. Total payroll was $4B last year per Forbes. 6month season, @$750M per month. Cancel 10 games, one third of a month, that’s $250M. While ownership doesn’t eat $250M, because they have lost revenues, the players certainly do.
Pads Fans
The owners lose $2 billion of revenue per month of lost games.
The way federal labor law works is that if the players strike, the owners can unilaterally prorate the player’s salaries. In the case of a lockout, the owners cannot impose a prorated salary on the players. The players would have to vote to accept less than 100% of their contract in the CBA negotiations.
At this point, because the owners canceled games during a lockout, the 6-7 lost games would basically be paid time off for the players.
Unless the owners drop the lockout and the players decide to strike, the players will get 100% of their salaries in 2022 regardless of season length.
hyraxwithaflamethrower
I doubt a deal is done tomorrow. I can live with a 150-game season. Hoping they don’t go beyond a 12-team playoff, but I expect the players will to get more money.
FSF
If they go to 14, I’m done with baseball.
ham77
When they eventually expand to 32 teams what difference does it make?
FSF
When they do that we can talk. And your math skills worry me a bit.
Cosmo2
They’d need a lot more than 32 teams to make 14 viable
alwaysgo4two
Huh??? You’re done with baseball because of a possible playoff format? Sure doesn’t take much, dows it?
FSF
You obviously have no understanding of the game and history of baseball.
DarkSide830
what about? the World Series used to be an exhibition and nine games long. this stuff has changed a lot over time.
FSF
That was over 100 years ago, when racists in the game were rampant and decades before even Black players were allowed in. Time was when a “walk” was a “hit”.
The most common theme through it all was that it was very difficult and special to even win a Pennant. They’ve already diluted its value on multiple occasions. This will cheapen it so much more.
I would be okay if baseball weren’t such that we regularly see bad teams win series against good teams (a la football and basketball where I can’t recall even one scrub team ever winning a championship). But the format just allows for teams that have no business being true champions to be allowed that honor. But then again, the Commissioner says the championship is meaningless and just a piece of metal so who am I to argue with such sage wisdom.
JoeBrady
They changed the playoff format over 50 years ago.
FSF
Gee, really? I didn’t know that. Then again, read above as I’ve already stated that the format has been diluted.
Catuli Carl
If those “scrub teams” beat all the other seemingly better teams in 7 game series’ then they aren’t scrub teams.
Catuli Carl
BREAKING: There used to be more racists in America.
Thank you for that relevant tidbit.
Cosmo2
alwaysgo: I grew up with a four team format. To now go to 14 is pretty severe of a difference. Playoff format can change everything. Try reading my reasoning here. It’s pretty clear. You don’t have to agree but your attitude of: oh just cuz they completely changed a major aspect of the sport you’re out? You mustn’t like it that much- is ridiculous. Read my posts. Half the league in the playoffs changed A LOT and 14 teams is a more than 300 percent (!!!!) rise in the number of teams there were in my childhood. That’s a HUGE difference.
Pads Fans
Used to?
VegasSDfan
Come on 1r so this guy goes to a different sport
Cosmo2
Last sport for me. Already quit the others. Very childish of folks to wish fans away though. Ive a different opinion on this than you, I guess, try dealing with that like an adult. Or change the game so I’ll go “to a different sport” which sounds like something a five year old would say.
stymeedone
Here’s hoping they go to 14, then
Cosmo2
Why do you have a bug up your behind about me not liking a 14 team format? Grow the eff up.
mike127
@FSF—believe me, baseball is my favorite–BUT I do follow football (14 teams in playoffs)—I really don’t follow hockey or pro basketball too much, but–16 teams in the playoffs.
To me, the biggest detractor in a 14 team playoff is the length that will be created in the postseason—you cannot play baseball in the north when it stretches into mid-November. You play a game, almost all summer, under certain conditions and there is a major shift in the way the game is played in cold weather.
What a fourteen team playoff eventually lead to at the very least, the league championship series and the World Series being played in a warm weather, neutral site. (or domed arena city)..
dirkg
This standstill is just as much as about the large market teams versus the small market teams. If you think about it, the large market teams align with a lot of what the players want (CBT increase, free agency sooner, less revenue sharing, etc.).
Manfred has been steadfast to protect the small market teams to a major fault. Sure the small market teams need some protection, but not at the expense of the league as a whole.
Figure this out MLB. You’re bleeding. Bad.
RobM
The owners’ committee. requires 75% approval on any CBT, which provides enormous amount of power to the small-market teams. Many of the problems we see in the game today originated with the rising influence of the small-market clubs over the past 15 years. I’m not saying this to spark anger, but there is a legitimate question if MLB would be better off without the bottom five teams.
FSF
Seriously, just stop! You’re making way too much sense for this crowd.
stymeedone
@Rob M
The addition of just 2 team in the playoffs is worth $150MM more to ESPN. Why would MLB possibly want to reduce their market size? What would be your reaction if your favorite team got eliminated?
Yankee Clipper
RobM: As it is going, they certainly would be. It’s getting to the point that the entire MLB structure is being altered just to suit those teams. They’d be much better off with five new teams/owners who commit to coming in, like Cuban, and bringing the game up, rather than the five parachutes it’s dragging behind right now.
Halo11Fan
I don’t think it’s the small market teams as much as the mid market teams.
The mid-market teams want to add free agents, but if they are going to compete against the big market teams, what chance do they have?
Pads Fans
The Padres are a small market team. They added two $30 million contracts. They have a payroll over $200 million.
Not sure what you mean by mid-market, but all the teams that are 11-20th in revenue were over $360 million in revenue. I doubt that a team that can easily afford a $180 million payroll would be too concerned about the top few are spending.
It was 3 of the bottom 6 in revenue and a top 10 team that objected to increases in the CBT threshold.
YourDreamGM
Why would any owner regardless of market size want players to get to free agency sooner?
nukeg
You’re the Rays. You draft a player, develop him, and lose him to free agency at 27 instead of 29. You don’t think the Yankee’s want a crack at him at 27 instead of 29?
This is a HUGE factor of why Spring Training hasn’t started.
nukeg
Granted the Rays would more than likely have already flipped him, but not all teams are as smart as the Rays.
Pads Fans
If the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, or Cubs; the 4 biggest revenue teams, could get Juan Soto at 25 instead of 26 and have a superstar in his prime for an extra year they would jump at that.
YourDreamGM
Winning teams are built around young cost controlled talent. You can only afford so many mega contracts I don’t care how large your market is. Large market teams love cheap labor even more than small markets. You think the Yankees wanted to give Judge 400 million with his injury history? But they are glad to have him for the arbitration 1 year at a time. Cubs wanted no part in keeping their big players until 40. Would much rather have them for cheap until 29 then give them 300 400 million at 27. Red sox sure didn’t want mookie until he was 40. Dodgers rather trade prospects who only have that kind of value because of their years of control to get Turner instead of paying Seager. Pretty sure they would rather have Bellinger year to year in arbitration than paying him until he is 40.
Dock_Elvis
I don’t understand the concept of small market anymore given the global market and franchise values…UNLESS they’re a bubble…and that’s what I believe the owners think. This isn’t a game going up and up…it’s going down.
Pads Fans
Small market in terms of TV market and revenue, not franchise value. In franchise value the range is $1.5 billion to over $6 billion.
Otto371
Am i the only one who sees a nunn at first glance when looking at Tony Clark in that oicture?
seanmc1983
Give me a break.
brucebochyisthemarlboroman
At this point I just don’t give a s*** until they stop acting like petulant children. This has become an absolute clown show.
JeffreyChungus
CUNCEL DA SEASON!!!
Tacoshells
I’m starting to feel like the MLB is at least trying and they’re giving a little. Your turn MLBPA! Get it done!
PitcherMeRolling
Thought we were already past the 162 game mark. Cute that the owners are trying to recycle that. Tells you that they don’t expect a deal to get done.
brucebochyisthemarlboroman
I’d say it more speaks volumes to the theory it’s posturing. Frankly shows weakness tbh. But whatever they need to just quit being whiny little kids. Stop throwing absolutely absurd demands on the table that have almost zero rationale. Meet in the middle or as close to the middle as possible. I realize that’s oversimplified but it still at its core is really the root problem here IMO.
stymeedone
Moving your position is called negotiating, and its not a sign of weakness, its a sign of good faith bargaining.
Ol’ Uncle Charlie
Sounds like I’m probably the only one thinking it, but something in me makes me think they’re actually pretty close and that this will get done tomorrow…just a hunch.
I think the MLBPA isn’t going to get anything near what they initially asked for, but they’ll gain enough to save face, make some good changes (though I’m not a fan of a 14-team post season) and save the whole season.
FSF
As long as it doesn’t include a 14-game postseason, I can live with that. Even 12 is very disconcerting.
RobM
They never expected to get anywhere near what they asked for. It’s not a question of “saving face.” You start high and negotiate down. That would like saying MLB saves face, even though they didn’t get their initial $180MM cap/$100MM floor.
Ol’ Uncle Charlie
@Rob, if both sides each move toward each other a little bit, this will be a good deal for the MLBPA.
It’s widely known the MLBPA came into this CBA embarrassed because they got their asses handed to them the last CBA, so yes, this is definitely, PARTIALLY about saving face…in addition to also getting the young guys paid more, etc.
Let’s play ball!
RobM
@Ol’ Uncle Charlie, I agree. If there’s one major issue I have with the MLBPA is they may be trying to get back in one CBA what they’ve lost over the last few. To me, I think they can declare victory if they establish a solid framework they can build from in future CBAs. Pushing the CBT higher, which they will; getting a higher minimum, which they will; and establishing a money pool for young players are all positives, and ones they can build off moving forward.
PutPeteinthehall
I was thinking the same thing. The offer of a full season is just to sweeten the pot as any games missed the players do not get paid. If there is no deal tomorrow the players know they will probably lose a month or more. I believe there will be a deal by Wednesday.
I hate the idea of a phantom playoff win or 14 team playoffs too.
Pads Fans
The give the union asked for in exchange for the 14 team playoffs is something MLB owners have not come close to.
RobM
Really? I thought they said the last chance for a 162-game season was a week ago? Was MLB not truthful…again?
The 228MM CBT with increases is a positive, although probably still a little light, but let’s see how onerous the strings attached are. My concern is they’ve piled a bunch of other penalties on top of the thresholds like they did the last time.
Halo11Fan
It was the season starting on time. it’s not going to start on time.
If the owners are going to have to pay for 162 games, which they are, they are going to try to get in 162 games.
Are the players liars for saying that there would be no expanded playoffs?
Things change?
Pads Fans
The players never said no to expanded playoffs. They asked for being paid part of TV money in return.
The owners said that Feb 28th was the final say to have a full season, cancelled a weeks worth of games, and said that the games could not be made up later. They lied. Again.
prov356
Let the hand wringing begin…or continue.
Halo11Fan
263 for the CBT by the end of the CBA.. give me a break. Also, I don’t think it’s so much the threshold as it is the penalties. If the penalties are reasonable, what’s the big deal of a 230 million dollar threshold?
There should be an international draft. There shouldn’t be a 14 team playoff. The league should have 45 days to implement rule changes. There should be 50 million in the “good” young player pool. The young players who perform should get paid and 50 million for a group of good players is nothing.
Both sides are right, both sides are wrong.
sviscusi
I agree, how dare the MLBPA expect the CBT to increase by a whopping 3% per year. How greedy can they get.
Halo11Fan
If you want three or four teams every coveted free agent, and let the other teams fight for scraps, then it’s fine.
If you want to have three or for super teams and every other team fighting for playoff scraps, that’s fine as well.
For the rest of us, it’s absurd.
Catuli Carl
@sviscusi
Do you realize what that does to small market teams? Or do you just want the Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, Astros to dominate the league every year?
sviscusi
It’ll do nothing to small market teams. Nothing. Those teams already pocket huge profits year to year. Every single one could spend more but don’t out of greed. Every team could run a 100m salary, last year the average was 130m with 10 teams below 100.
You want to know how ridiculous it is, Baltimore had a 42m payroll, Cleveland a 50m one. Every single team before a single ticket is sold has over 100-120m in revenue from national and local tv deals, merchandising, etc. That’s before one ticket, one 10 dollar beer or 15$ parking spot.
It’s clear the current system is broken, salaries should not be going down while revenue is increasing, yet they are. Fine, if the Pirates want to tank year to year and pocket the 40m difference between what the get and what they spend, fine, just let the teams that will spend, spend to make up for the leaches and bottom feeders who treat the teams that they own as a piggy bank.
I’m perfectly willing to change my mind if every team wants to open their books.
Catuli Carl
@sviscusi
You realize the CBT increase really only helps the superstar players, right?
sviscusi
Why would it only help superstar players? The complete opposite would be true. A 8 million dollar 4th reliever is a luxury who could easily be replaces by a rookie making min and performing 75% as well. Pick one of the ~10 teams affected by the cap, I guarantee each one has at least one or two areas they aren’t addressing in FA or by taking on salary because of cap issues.
Superstars will always get their money, always. That’s proven true in every single sport. It’s the secondary mid level players that lose out because of caps.
Dock_Elvis
Typical cost or living applied to the wealthy.
Pads Fans
So you are trying to say that the players don’t deserve to be paid more money as the revenue of MLB goes up? 30% higher than what it was to start the previous BA is about $255 million and 30% higher than last season is $273 million. That is reasonable.
How can you do an international draft when there is no high school of travel ball in foreign countries other than Japan? Exactly how do players get experience and coaching without the buscone system in place? Explain how you would make up for those facts and then discussion of an international draft can start.
45 days for rule changes? Are you insane? You want rule changes in the middle of seasons? That is asinine.
Where did you pull that $50 million number out of and is it still brown and stinky?
MLB minimum salary, which is what most of those 490 young players are making, rose 7% over 5 years while revenue went up 30%. Based on that fact, how much should that pool be to make up some of that $265 million per season gap? The $30 million for 30 players that the owners proposed is a joke and an insult.
The MLBPA has been reasonable in everything except asking for a cut in revenue sharing. If they had said instead that teams had to return to the general pool everything they didn’t spend on from revenue sharing on MLB players everything would have been reasonable.
Old York
Well, you could technically have the season any time of the year if the teams are willing to play in some of the southern stadiums and stadiums with domes. Could still get a 162 season in, even if it is October Not sure why we restrict ourselves to specific months. I’d like to see year-round baseball.
Dadbodfromseattle
The one f-in year my mariners are supposed to be good and legit chance of post season, the entire shebang gets canceled. Man, I swear the Ms fans get screwed more than a lot lizard
FSF
Don’t worry buddy. By the time baseball is played again, all teams will be eligible for the postseason regardless of their regular season record.
Nobaseball20
Come on guys, with the war in Europe, need to pull the country together……
It helped in 2021 …..
Dock_Elvis
NBA is doing what it can. Baseball is a national irrelevance outside of talking about how awful it is. It keeps the public from speaking of how boring the game is.
RobM
“I’d like to see year-round baseball.”
Now there’s an idea I can support. I’m not trying for less baseball; I want more baseball.
Fred Park
RobM, the game is not fun in the colder weather.
I’ve played it in the cold and even snow once up in Idaho years ago. Or tried.
But if we could only return to baseball as it was last season, I’d give thanks, light candles, and give to the poor. Even at the freeway exits.
‘Anything Helps God Bless’.
Yankee Clipper
I’m in, 200-game seasons! Let’s go!
small_market_chub
The league has officially named this the “super duper extra serious about it this time” deadline
brucebochyisthemarlboroman
Ok now that’s friggin funny lol
brucebochyisthemarlboroman
“You guys, it’s not the CBT threshold we’re concerned with… It’s ManBearPig. And we’re super serial” – Rob Manfred
LordD99
Perhaps we’re seeing a new light at the end of the tunnel.
It’s possible though that MLB is creating another false deadline by threatening tomorrow is the last chance for full pay and service time. It’s a hollow threat as that needs to be negotiated and the owners are the ones who locked out the players. History says they will pay in full even if games are lost.
Back tomorrow.
Cosmodogs
The owners are going to give in, in the end, on crediting service time, even if a season isn’t played, but the players are dreaming if they think the owners are going to also pay them for canceled games, especially after the lose revenue for said games. I have no dog in this fight, but if the owners hadn’t locked out the players, the players would have went on strike sometime in August like ‘94. The owners had no choice. They told the union they would remove the lockout if they “legally” agreed not to strike before the season(including post season) ended, and the union laughed at them. That’s how we know how this would have inevitably played out, which would be much worse, if there was no lockout, or it was lifted.
Pads Fans
Labor law says that because the owners locked out the players, regardless of the season length the owners have to pay them 100% of what they are contracted to earn. Its the law.
The players can agree to take less, but the owners cannot impose a prorated salary when they are the ones that locked out the players.
If the players were on strike it would be a completely different situation, but they aren’t.
mgomrjsurf
8 teams in playoffs or March Madness style with MLB adding a third league a Central/Midwest one. Also move Draft to Offseason and follow NHL rules of it.
Fred Park
I seriously don’t think either side gives a hoot either way..
They were just riding out the pandemic and now it’s the Ukraine mess.
We’re idiots to keep hoping.
Omarj
I don’t see a deal happening tomorrow, but both sides have made a good amount of progress in the last 30 days. I do forsee some concessions made after tomorrow’s meeting. Curious if the players will fight for lost salary. I’m thinking the season will be 120-140 games. I think increasing roster to 27 players would be a solid win instead of changing the tax and minimum salary
Pads Fans
30 more players at minimum does not make up for an $18 million difference in CBT threshold per team and 490 players increasing their minimum salary by $100k. Not close.
Since they are being locked out by the owners, if the season starts at all the players will get 100% of their contracted salary. That is federal labor law concerning labor stoppages. If they players were on strike that would not be the case.
brucenewton
They’ll get it done. Prepare for your draft.
fjmendez
Anyone else thinking the league is going to propose a salary floor with the increased CBT?
YourDreamGM
No because there are about a dozen teams who are under 100 million or plan to be again.
Airo13
Why? Union would like that. Most owners would not.
Ol’ Uncle Charlie
No.
sviscusi
A bunch of those low payroll teams make money hand over fist. The Pirates for instance receive 120m just for existing before any income from playing games (attendance, parking, concessions) is even factored in.
They’re not giving that up. They (and other teams like them) will spend as little as possible and pocket every single cent, or put it into non team things and earn even more money there.
terry g
No way a salary floor happens.
Mustard38
Odds are they cancel more games tomorrow, just another carrot being dangled in front of us fans. Guess I’ll be living on minor league ball this year. What are some good leagues in the Midwest?
Shadow Ball
Don’t worry about the season. Focus all efforts on breaking the union to smithereens!!!
FSF
Sounds great. Let’s end MLB’s monopoly while we’re at it. If MLB decides to replace the players while the current players decide to create a PBL (Professional Baseball League), who do you think will wind up garnering more viewers. It should go both ways no?
foppert
MLB. PBL won’t get off the ground. It costs money to start a league. Zero chance the players put their hands in their pocket for that.
FSF
Yeah, the potential for owning what could become $50+ BILLION in franchise value has no alluring affect on these players. Whatever. Have you ever heard the term “investor” before? Because if you know what that is, let me tell you that there will be no shortage of such folks and institutions looking to buy in and fund such a venture.
No wonder the owners can get away with murder when the fans have no clue as to what’s going on.
foppert
No it wouldn’t. Way outside their area of expertise and they wouldn’t be prepared to put up and risk the initial investment. It’s a fanciful notion.
Hope you enjoy giving up baseball.
FSF
What initial investment are you even referring to? I don’t think you’ve thought through this at all. This isn’t brain surgery, you get a field, you write out a roster, and players go play baseball. Somehow, even millions of little kids manage to do this daunting task every single year.
foppert
If they don’t put up the initial investment, and investors do, then investors control the PBL, not the players.
FSF
I’m sure players will have plenty of chance to buy in as the first round of investors. If they decide not to, then so be it. But getting the money from somewhere will be no problem. And the players will have a much more upfront voice on how the revenue and players’ share will get structured. There will obviously be some negotiating back and forth but there is WAY too much money not to go after it. Because while the “PBL” increases in value by BILLIONS every single year, MLB will become almost worthless overnight.
foppert
Ha ha. Ok. You should start the PBL yourself !
FSF
What is it about the definition of “monopoly” that you don’t get?
foppert
I concede. You have it covered. I haven’t thought it through. All good.
Airo13
How will that work? Both sides need each other… A new and better league would pop eventually if the union was busted up
TomToms
I’ll believe it when I see it. Until then. To the players and owners… get bent! Cripes! I’ve been watching basketball. I don’t even like basketball.
Yankee Clipper
I can stomach some basketball. I usually have to shut it off right around the time of the tip-off….
In nurse follars
March madness is starting. Baseball would be back burner anyway. Then the nba playoffs and the start of football camp after the draft. Baseball is squeezed off the first few pages of the sports section anyway. No one will miss it.
Airo13
If we’re going to a 14-team playoff, might as well turn the world series into a 3-team battle royale.
brucebochyisthemarlboroman
Only if they get good ol’ JR to do commentary.
theathlete
The salary floor for “anti-tanking” is stupid. It’s a cyclical system, as one team rebuilds another is spending. And when that team who is spending now exhausts their competitive window, they will start a rebuild while the other team is entering their competitive phase and they will start spending big.
A salary floor means a player like Maikel Franco will be signed for 5 million instead of 1, which means a player who is slightly better than him will demand 10-15 million. So if they institute a floor, I hope they add a cap to stick it to the players at the top who wanted the floor since they think it will make teams try to be more competitive since they have to spend more.(it won’t, it will only make placeholder players cost more).
A draft lottery is also a dumb idea for all the same reasons above. It will not make teams spend more. Spending while mediocre creates the Orioles from 1998-2011 who lost every year as mostly middle of the road spenders. The Orioles are doing a full rebuild like so many other teams who spend big now have done before them so why make changes when it was fine when the Astros did it some years ago…
The game was never broken and didn’t need fixed. Rob Manfred has always been a clown for the unnecessary changes he’s made and tried to make. He’s tried to turn the game into a parody of itself. But some of the unions demands are equally as stupid. Both sides look terrible during this whole thing. I sympathize with neither of them. Maybe NASCAR will gain some new fans while there’s no baseball to watch.
FSF
A floor doesn’t mean that they necessarily have to “spend” the money. For non-compliers, they can pay the difference into a pool that gets distributed.
You’re using the Astros as an example? It’s PRECISELY that a huge market like Houston will go through years of underspending as to why we are here in the first place.
And your blaming Manfred (who I agree is a “clown”) but he seems to share your entire ideology down to a tee.
Patrick OKennedy
The Astros went bankrupt, were sold to a new owner, and were already at the bottom when they changed hands. They were already in the tank, so they just took their time reorganizing.
The Cubs likewise were in the basement when Theo Epstein took over, and they didn’t actually build around very top draft picks.
FSF
But isn’t that the issue. That through a confluence of events, all teams save for maybe the Yankees (and somehow the Rays) seem to go through down years and many/most using that as a reason not to spend.
Yankee Clipper
Yeah, the Pirates cycle just seems to last much, much, much, much (like, you wonder if they stayed a few grades behind) longer. And, some other well known teams too. Hi Orioles! Marlins, lookin’ at you, kids! Yep, a few other obvious ones.
That’s not cyclical. That’s an established norm and when they have a spike in spending it’s an aberration.
Cosmo2
Plus, tanking is a myth. Only fans buy that nonsense. A few bad teams need to spend more. Last place teams need to try and improve too. But no one is hoping to lose for the draft, no professionals anyway.
48-team MLB
I had the Mets finishing 3-93 in a 96-game season but now I’m going to have to change it to 14-148. They will win nine games in April before combining for five wins over the rest of the season.
Patrick OKennedy
WE ARE BEING SET UP AGAIN
Glowing reports of MLB’s wonderful offer is being leaked to the media through the same predictable sources. They will leave out the details that are poison pills in the agreement.
If the “strings attached” are stiffer CBT penalties, or unilateral power for the commissioner, then don’t expect the players to bite.
48-team MLB
Possibly…just like the Mets set up their fans every April before collapsing in May.
Yankee Clipper
Super underrated comment 48-Team. Love how you brought it back to baseball team rivalry talk!
Camden453
“Let’s go. Let’s get this deal done fellas.” -average baseball fan
48-team MLB
I’m ready for the free agent/trade frenzy.
Camden453
What I want to know is how many trades are already agreed to and they’re just waiting to announce everything
easymoney
stop this nonsense and get the season started
bjhaas1977
Manfred is destroying baseball !
greatgame 2
Clark and Boras are destroying baseball
OneLoneGone
Hopefully they can come to an agreement tomorrow for everyone’s sake. If not…why not unlock players from Spring Training while they continue negotiations with the caveat that IF there’s no agreement by the start of the regular season both sides agree to have a 3rd party mediation decide it once and for all.
FSF
Because mediation is not binding. And if given the arbitration route, it would undoubtedly be some stooge of the owners and the PA knows that to be the case so all of that, no offense, is a non-starter.
johns-11
LOL the owners changed “the last possible day” for a full schedule from 2/3 weeks ago lol
Cray MC
I haven’t read all the comments on this thread before mine, but a quick glance (plus the general tone of the comments on CBA posts) is that the readers of MLBTR are skeptical about the owners and the players working things out.
Here is the argument for getting our hopes up that they are close to agreement:
1. Whatever concessions the players make from here on out, they’ve made it clear that they won’t be intimidated by the owners in negotiations. They didn’t blink when the owners locked them out or imposed various “deadlines.” They showed a united front. They set up a strike fund for a 2022 without baseball. To the extent that the owners were motivated to “break” the union or “teach the players a lesson,” they players can hold their heads high.
2. Even though the sides are apart on minimum salaries, the pre-arb bonus pool, and the luxury tax thresholds, they got some long-overdue gains. My details aren’t exact on this, but I’m pretty sure the luxury tax thresholds haven’t gone up for several years. Nor has the league minimum salaries. And the pre-arb bonus pool – again, apologies if I’m incorrect – is brand new, so they’ve been negotiating UP from zero.
3. The sides can split the difference on some of these issues. For instance, the minimum salaries and pre-arb bonus pool affect a lot of the same players. If, for example, the players push for a little more on the minimum, they could potentially accept coming down on the size of the bonus pool for those guys now earning a higher minimum salary. (Or vice versa, accepting the league-offered minimums to get the league to boost the bonus pool.)
4. MLB moving off “we’re past being able to play a 162-game season” is a big point. First, once again, the players called the owners’ bluff. Second, no one wants to get stuck in a situation where they finally agreed on most of the things they disagreed on, but they can’t agree because they have to fight over an issue created by the length of their disagreement.
It’s a negotiation. The players didn’t get everything they wanted but they got more than in the last few CBAs. They’re making the owners pay for their approval on expanded playoffs (which for them is truly just a bargaining chip rather than a substantive issue). The owners have to deal with the reality that they couldn’t maintain the same conditions in CBA after CBA. This is a window for both sides to come out thinking they didn’t get taken advantage of.
Make any sense for a ray of hope here?
48-team MLB
There could possibly be a RAY of hope. It’s been a ROCKY road to this point but hopefully an agreement is in the CARDS so we can DODGE more cancellations.
Treehouse22
Raising the base luxury tax threshold from $210 mil to $228 mil, increasing to $238 mil is huge, as is raising the league minimum salary from $570,500 to $700,000. Adding the DH in the NL is also a big deal, as it allows 15 more thumpers who can’t field a lick an opportunity to play a few more years. Maybe a few of the guys who got the insane $300 mil contracts can be productive at the plate for a few more years and still earn most of that money. The offer to play a full season was another nice concession and feels like an honest attempt by the owners to get this done tomorrow. If not, the season will be shortened by another series or two, and no further concessions will be made with regard to playing a full season or paying full salaries. I think this is a strong basis for signing the CBA tomorrow.
Pads Fans
What is huge is the 30% increase in revenue for the teams while the players had a 20% decrease in salary.
Increasing the CBT to $238 million is not close to a 30% increase. Increasing the minimum to $700k is just what is reasonable, its not a huge thing.
Adding the DH in the NL is not a big deal. It means zero new jobs and 3-4 guys like Nellie Cruz extending their careers. At most its a $15-20 million increase in revenue moving to the players side of the balance sheet.
Playing a full season is not a concession at all. Federal labor law says that when the worker is locked out in a labor stoppage, they are due 100% of their contracted salary. MLB players are not on a per game salary, they are on an annual/season salary. The MLB owners cannot prorate the players salaries without the players agreeing.
The commissioners always has the ability to set a season length shorter than 162 games. That doesn’t change the obligation to pay the players the full amount they are contracted for.
Not playing a full season only hurts the owners. They are the one losing revenue.
Goose
The economy is about to go over a cliff that makes 2008 look like a small interruption and WW3 is potentially on our doorstep. Something tells me this time around if baseball goes out for awhile the damage is going to be be worse than 94.
Treehouse22
You nailed it, Goose. Our economy is in free fall with WW3 on our doorstep. We need baseball for our mental health. Stop the quibbling and get this done while you still have some fans.
Brew88
Hard to imagine Trout, Soto, Scherzer, Tatis and Freeman etc…going into battle though as Williams, Musial, Reese, Greenburg, Spahn and Berra etc…did.
Pads Fans
GDP and GDP per capita is way up. Working class wages are up more than inflation. Employment is at a 40 year high. Manufacturing jobs are moving up instead of down. Corporate profits are at record levels. Not sure where you are getting that our economy is in free fall. None of the economic data even slightly points in that direction.
Now if Russia decides to expand the invasion to other nations like Moldavia or the rest of Georgia or other European nations step into the war in Ukraine directly, i.e. sending their troops or aircraft into battle, then that might change, but in the short term the US economy would boom as we are called on to make the things the other nations are in need of.
JoeBrady
Pads Fans
Not sure where you are getting that our economy is in free fall.
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People like to say things.
That said, things are booming because the government is injecting so much money into the economy, I’d not sure anyone knows what the real number is anymore. Things can’t last, but there is no evidence that there has to a be a hard fall.
stymeedone
Something tells me if WW3 happens, baseball will be the least of our worries. Is Scherzer eligible for the draft?
Bjoe
Just cancel the season.
48-team MLB
Done. Spring is officially canceled. March 21 is now the start of Summer.
beyou02215
Jerking fans around like this – ‘a deal is far off, wait, a deal is close, just kidding it’s not close’; and then this ‘no full season, wait, maybe a full season’, etc., is just going to make fan anger and resentment all the worse if a deal is not reached tomorrow (today). It’s time to get this done. Otherwise, the fans should rebel. Enhough of taking us for granted.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
The owners are starting to wonder if maybe the players are serious this time but are still not concerned enough to toss more than crumbs. Just slightly bigger crumbs.
It won’t be until a month that begins with J that they owners realize the players won’t blink this time…if the players truly won’t blink this time, that is.
Mystery Team
I got my daily fantasy war chest full and I’m ready to go it’s time to make some money. It’s gonna happen tonight boys!! If not I guess it’ll have to be fantasy Cricket.
You Can Put It In The Books
Big day today.
Captain Judge99
@You Can Put It In The Books- Yes, pizza or tacos again?
1975Reds
Stop providing us with continuous deadlines…give us a new CBA! We are sick and tired of all the bull crap!
poppopts
Meanwhile, back in the real world, Americans are facing $5-6 per gallon of gas and double-digit inflation. And they’re debating millions of dollars like its chump change. Probably best that they cancel the season. There won’t be any fans that could afford to drive to the games.
Brew88
I have an electric car and enough panels on my roof to electrify my neighbors too. But have you seen the price of beer at the ballpark lately?
JoeBrady
Good for you. I’m a RW-C, but a LW environmentalist. It’s blow-ups like this which help bring people to their senses. Solar panels are a great investment. I eventually want a roof that feeds energy back into the system so I can spend the money on beer.
Win Cor
Revenue Sharing does that.
Let's Play Ball
It just cracks me up that people believe the players rhetoric about increasing the number of playoff teams would a disincentive to spending. Is this evident in the NFL/NBA/NHL? People want to believe the players BS so badly that they simply ignore blatantly obvious evidence of the ignorance of this position.
A larger playoff field is good for the game. It keeps fans engaged. Players make a nice bonus and It also creates more revenue. The players just are not bright enough to figure out generating more revenue means more money to spend on players.
The bottom line is the previous offer included several advancements for players. They have improved their position significantly and we should be playing baseball. Which side is being greedy now?
Win Cor
The players deserve the Union to be broken. Ignored by the owners as incompetent. They should the the players Union…”See you in June or July’ …and focus on shoring up the minor league system a little; especially Low A and the Complex league where PARENTS and SCOUTS can follow their young sons and daughters into the league further. That would be fun. I am sure Wilson and Rawlings, even Nike and Under Armor would love to sponsor. Perfect the MiLB streaming.
Pads Fans
Is that you Rob?
How about we get rid of the anti-trust exemption that MLB has and allow player salaries and expansion to be determined by the free market?
Deleted Userr
@Pads Fans are you ever going to use your Koamalu account again? Just wondering…
Pads Fans
MLB has had more different teams win championships and be in the playoffs than those other sports. Those other sports also have 100% revenue sharing while MLB is at 48%.
So the answer to your question is people should believe it because its the truth. Why would a small market team like the Pirates or Marlins spend money on competing when you can make more by being terrible?
prov356
It seems more clear than ever that Pride and his close friend Stubbornness are running this negotiation.
“But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and covered their ears.” Zechariah 7:11
tigerdoc616
Not that hopeful that an agreement is reached. But as long as they are talking, there is a chance.
Win Cor
There is absolutely zero in the MLB proposal that should keep the players from signing. If they do not sign; it is a going to be the moment where the Union could be broken; the owners have every right to walk away and shrink the sport..
Patrick OKennedy
This is incorrect.
First of all, you have no idea what is in the MLB proposal. The report said there are “major strings attached”. These could include authority for Manfred to unilaterally change the playing rules, an international draft with whatever bonuses owners decide, more draconian penalties added to the CBT thresholds, etc.
We do know that the increases proposed in the CBT are not enough for the players. They are now within $10 million on the lowest threshold, but it only increases by an average of $2M per year, and that might be all back loaded into the last year. That won’t fly at all.
The union is not remotely close to being broken
Win Cor
The CBT is too high as it is and penalties must be harsh once finalized to protect the poop and mid market teams. The players are barking up the wrong tree. Manfred is not the Boogie Man; he is a solid non emotional negotiator. He is good at his job. The fact that the shift is going away is enough to crown Manfred and throw him a parade. Plus the $700,000- Salary for newbies! great achievement for the Players. That is a homerun for all that wish to be ballplayers.
JoeBrady
Their offer calls for a 8.5% increase in the first year, so the offer is front-loaded. Past that, I agree that none of us (including you) know all the details. Playing rules and an international draft are de minimis.
But all we know right now is that the owners offered 13.3%/5 and the union wants 25.2%/5. It is neither a ridiculous offer, nor a ridiculous ask.
Win Cor
Check your Annual 401K if you have one. Normally it says what? 12-13% increase if you are lucky. 25.2% It would be stupid for the owners to even consider it. Preposterous, Unless Revenue Sharing is cut. But again, that would expose teams to go belly up. 4 or 5 teams would have gone belly up or sold in the last 10 years without Revenue Sharing. The public details; The Financial statements are out there though 2019 for everyone to see.
LordD99
This feels quite a bit like last week’s Manfred-created deadline, including MLB leaking some selective info to make them look good, but not leaking the negative info that will cause the MLBPA to push back. My guess is we’ll be hearing positive news if the meetings go long, but they’ll all come from MLB. Unless we hear players say progress is being made, there will be no deal today.
Hate to be that guy, but I’m that guy.
Win Cor
The MLBPA is playing with fire.
stymeedone
The MLBPA should put it to a vote. Show the owners your level of solidarity (and find out for yourselves).
Win Cor
Yes, A line in the sand!
PitcherMeRolling
The MLBPA does vote on proposals.
larry48
The owner’s latest proposal has a lot of hidden things that have not been released. That was released by MLB’s own negotiator. Only time will tell.
Halo11Fan
Larry, that could be. I read a lot of crap being spewed by both sides. That’s why I form my opinion issue be issue and not players vs owners.
JoeBrady
I wish more fans were like us. As an accountant, this is second-nature to me. List out 5 issues, list the ask/offer for each, and pick and choose which you like.
I’m with the players on the CBT, the owners on minimum wage and the draft lottery (which I think is far worse for the players than the owners), and split on the pre-arb fund. This assumes patches and a 12-team playoff format. if they get a 14-team playoff, I’d split the CBT, give the players their minimum wage, and split the pre-arb.
Pads Fans
Glad you are not my accountant. You miss the basic facts as often as you get them right. I would be in jail with you handling my books,.
Halo11Fan
You’d be giving gas exec huge bonuses. The revenues are skyrocketing. I’m glad you’re not running my business, it would go bankrupt.
LordD99
Larry, correct.
As was the case a week ago, MLB is leaking some positive info, but not revealing the full scope. A few MLBPA members have indicated there are problems with the offer. We just heard one of them. No movement on the player pool.
There will be no deal today.
Win Cor
Hidden from the lawyers? Nah.
ruckus727
I like the idea of an international draft.
BuddyBoy
I hate this idea, at least in the next two seasons.
mike156
If I’m the Owners I’m focussed on two items….the CBT levels, which, while not formally a hard cap, certainly act like one, and seem to be psychologically important to some of my Owners, and, more importantly, keeping younger players as cheap and under control for as long as possible. It’s essential that occur…it gives me the possibility of getting my young superstars to sign below-market extensions, potentially saving a huge amount, and also creates downward pressure on the 1-2 WAR vet market, because, unless I’m fighting for every game, I’ll happily use an MLB minimum AAAA type that a 1-2 WAR vet for many times the price. If that 1-2WAR vet wants a job, it will be at my price, not his.
Win Cor
CBT is key for 75% of the teams because they rely on Revenue sharing. Too not rely on it would mean structural change and allowing teams to go belly up. The league has chosen to protect the existing ball clubs in the league, It’s very simple.
mike156
The quasi-hard cap isn’t essential to revenue sharing–teams could still do it, The big-market monsters aren’t going to buy up every free agent, with ir without a cap because even they have limits–and they have players already in most positions. 48% of local revenues get tossed into the pot and divided up equally among the 30 teams. Part of the competitiveness problem is the amount of money that flows to teams with low expense bases, leaving those teams less of an incentive to compete. The league can both protect its teams and promote competitiveness. It chooses not to
Hexbreaker
Jeff Passan is a hack.
Win Cor
Dumb hack. Clueless. He has no business discussing $$$ because he has proven to be as sharp as a spoon. ESPN likes people like that. Dumb and loud.
Rumors2godsears
Way late to float this idea but I feel they need some sort of provision worked in where if a player making over a certain amount while injured shouldn’t count against the luxury tax.. say your pitcher goes down with TJ.. his salary that year should be exempt on the luxury tax.
Thornton Mellon
Incredibly bad faith negotiating tactics by MLB. Give less than 24 hours notice about this being a “final” final deadline this time. Adding last minute, previously undiscussed items into a “take it or leave it” offer.
What is being proposed still does not fix the tanking issues. There needs to be a cap and a floor. Imbalance in the game will continue and likely worsen. I am all for the young players to be paid their worth – closer to the new NFL model but not the old one – but for that, there will have to be some certainty in the form of cap/floor. Unless that is attacked the gap between the few rich teams and 15-20 teams that won’t spend will only grow.
BuddyBoy
Goodness, seriously? Both sides have had months to negotiate, its on both of them. I don’t get why anyone sides with either one.
Cincyfan85
The most ridiculous thing in these negotiations is the PA’s enormous bonus pool demands and barely coming down lol. Talk about starting from the moon.
mike156
$4 Billion payroll last year. $50M is a drop in the bucket. Yes, the Union could come down, but that’s not the breakpoint.
LordD99
The bonus pool is peanuts. MLB is holding the game hostage because it’s holding firm at $30M and won’t meet in the middle in the $50M range.
That’s the real annoyance here. The MLBPA isn’t even battling over a massive structural change, yet the owners have refused to budge much.
The problem is the players started too small. The big battle will be fought in a future CBA. That’s the one that will shut the season down for a full year. This CBA is not the hill to die on.
Dock_Elvis
The problem with MLB is that it LONG has held onto this illusion of possessing integrity. If it had any it surely lost that in 1994. And the other real issue is that you have two sides in ownership, and the union, that feel that the OTHER is the enemy. The enemy to both is truly the way the game is marketed. They’d rather be a 3rd rate NFL model than a 1st rate baseball experience. MLB completely lost sight of marketing the professional game in numerous minor league markets…and would get it more if possible. To what end? To become more of a TV sport? Baseball is horrible on tv. TV displays little of the core virtue of the live game…where many people first love it.
I have sincere question of what ownerships projections are telling them to illicit a response like this that’s nothing but a marketing nightmare. It appears to me they realize they’re heading for a narrow market more in line with the NHL, or perhaps even golf…which is scary. There are franchises valued at billions built on faulty cable deals, and limited venues. But what if people don’t even care for the game? What if they can’t even afford it? If Baseball chooses the TV programming model it might as well take itself out behind the barn….the game doesn’t have any salesman. It’s a boring game that’s dominated by greed…and it’s very hard to change that branding.
johnnybadd2019
MLB owes us 162 games for this bs. The owners also owe the fans more cheap ticket nights and giveaways
hoof hearted
“welcome fans to the Christmas double header….”
LordD99
The Athletic is reporting that today’s meeting between the two sides ended after 20 minutes.
hoof hearted
As I look at ALL the increases the Union wants, it reminds me of a song by Queens. “I want it all”, I want it now!
2020vision
Both sides have just enough ego and stupidity to cancel the season.
WatchClark
162 games or bust.
There are other things to do
I don’t care to see 16 teams in the playoffs either
2020vision
No kidding. Why even play 162 games if there’s going to be 16 teams in the playoffs? That’s more watered down than the $14 draft beers the greedy owners serve on the final game of a home stand. Nothing says competitive balance more than teams with a losing record making the playoffs.
WatchClark
It’s the players fault
Halo11Fan
It’s really not. The players want fair value, but the owners books are a deeply guarded secrets so no one really knows what the value is.
The players don’t want to be taken advantage of. I don’t blame them.
dasit
every time i come to this site and see the latest labor negotiation headline i’m reminded of going to see the first Star Wars prequel and being super excited and then the opening text crawl was all about taxes and trade routes and i was like “wait, what?”
RobM
As of 8:30 ET from The Athletic: MLB’s proposed luxury tax thresholds now start at $230 million and run to $242 million, sources tell The Athletic’s Evan Drellich and Andy McCullough. But there remain strings attached to CBT and other issues players are concerned with in MLB’s offer. Full proposal not immediately known.
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The positives is they’re still talking and unlike last week there’s been less leakage and positioning. Indicates a more serious tone. For the moment.
nowheredan
Tony Clark’s beard looks like he dipped his chin in a sink while washing dishes.
Vladatatat 2
Someone needs to shear Tony Clark before all that beautiful wool goes to waste.