8:04am: Reynolds spoke with reporters this morning about contract talks with the Pirates, and said the team has made no new offers thus far (per Rob Biertempfel of The Athletic). At this stage, Reynolds has not set a deadline for a potential deal to get done.
7:59am: The future of Bryan Reynolds has dominated Pirates-related headlines ever since his trade request early on in the off-season. Speculation looks set to bleed into the spring now, and it likely won’t stop until the Pirates either hammer out an extension with their star outfielder or trade him.
According to Jason Mackey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the Pirates’ best offer to Reynolds was a six-year, $80MM deal, while the player was seeking eight years and $134MM — both of which would have represented a franchise record contract. While a $54MM gap is significant, owner Bob Nutting said in an interview with Mackey that the team is working hard to try and bridge that at the moment.
“We’d love to see Bryan as a long-term part of the team. The piece that I was most concerned about was his level of frustration in the sense that he felt disrespected by the team. If there’s a way we can bridge the gap, we’re working hard to do that. We’re continuing this week to work hard to do it. Bryan’s important. We want to do what’s right for him, for his family and for the team. We absolutely have respect for Bryan. We want to keep lines of communication open,” Nutting said.
The trade request came on the heels of that impasse in contract negotiations, but Reynolds has still maintained his preference is to stay in Pittsburgh if the right deal can be found. On that front, however, it does appear to be make-or-break time. Another strong season of production would likely push an extension next winter well out of Pittsburgh’s price range, and while the Pirates could still likely get a strong package in return for Reynolds next winter, his dwindling years of control and increasing arbitration salary will make it trickier to justify the bounty they might receive this season.
Reynolds can be a free agent following the 2025 season, which would not appear to line up perfectly with the Pirates’ projected window of contention, which may well be just opening around 2024-25. As such, an extension which keeps him in Pittsburgh beyond 2025 or a trade for younger players with more years of control makes plenty of sense. Reynolds, 28, has established himself as one of the game’s top outfielders in recent years. The switch-hitter has compiled 12.5 fWAR, averaging an excellent .281/.361/.481 line while belting 74 home runs over the past four seasons.
In any case, there seems to be little chance of the Pirates following the Padres anytime soon, and turning their small market payroll into one more resembling that of the game’s heavy hitters.
“It’s a model that we have belief in and have had success with. As we varied away from that model, which arguably we did in ’17, ’18 and ’19, it doesn’t work very well. I think we’re right at the brink of seeing success. I think what we’re continuing to do and what we have done is try to show discipline and make sure that we’re investing in the right places. I continue to look at baseball as one part of a much broader bucket,” Nutting said.
The Bucs’ payroll has ranked 30th, 30th and 28th in the past three seasons, failing to clear the $60MM threshold. The Pirates were at a similar stage of their rebuild in 2011-12, and were running out bottom-three payrolls in those seasons. As their window of contention opened, payroll more than doubled from 2012-15 (according to Cot’s Baseball Contracts) as the Pirates enjoyed a trio of playoff seasons.
Nutting’s brief but wide-ranging interview with Mackey also touched on the new collective bargaining agreement which was agreed upon a year ago between the league and the MLB Players Association.
“There’s no question the CBA contained several things that were not good for the Pirates and very few things that were excellent for us. You also have to remember there was no baseball going on. We had a real risk of losing the season. I felt a significant sense of urgency to get on the field. Could have had a protest vote. That’s not really who I am. I’m not sure it would be good for the team, and I don’t think it would be good for baseball,” Nutting said.
“It’s the single biggest issue facing the Pittsburgh Pirates. Competitive disparity, revenue disparity and payroll disparity are all real challenges. I think it’s great [Commissioner Rob Manfred] is publicly talking about it. We simply can’t be here in the next cycle. We’ve got to see fundamental change in the economic structure of the game. I believe that we’re positioned to do it — not this year or next year but over the longer-term cycle.”
Old Bob pays Nutting breaking out the piggy bank this year for the Pirate fans…..
If Nutting didn’t agree with the terms of the new CBA, why did he vote for it?
@TheMan he said why right in the story.
“I felt a significant sense of urgency to get on the field. Could have had a protest vote. That’s not really who I am. I’m not sure it would be good for the team, and I don’t think it would be good for baseball,” Nutting said.
I would think that everyone could agree with Bob on that.
I wouldn’t believe anything Nutting said even if it meant my incarceration for it
His only goal is profit, end of story
Just another owner who could care less about the team or fans. Just an investment and he wants to make every last dime when it comes time to sell. This is another reason baseball is dying.
I felt that way to, the CBA was a crapshoot… they passed it because baseball was hemorrhaging money and fans everyday they didn’t
This is why everything is dying.
To further clarify how cheap Nutting is, every season, the team chooses one specific night game to promote “ Pirates Charities “.
PC raises money to provide community awareness for children’s parks and other meaningful activities.
One way money is raised is for people to buy sports bags that for years included Pirate franchised items, such as a Pirate Parrot bank, Pirate player figurines, autographed baseball, current and former players, things of that nature
For more money, people could buy an autographed home jersey of the player of their choice or an autographed bat.
This past year was different.
The small items, autographed baseballs, bats, etc were no longer included in the sports bags.
Every item was auctioned off separately
Why the change?
I read that Nutting didn’t feel it was appropriate to include so many of the items in a sports bag free of charge to a potential purchaser and determined that if people want the items they would buy them
He donated those items in years past
At least he didn’t replace the autographed balls with coal.
Currently 28th in MLB regarding team payrolls at just under 61m.
Baseball’s most impressive accomplishment: convincing fans and media that every team except the Dodgers, Yankees, and Red Sox are teetering of the brink of bankruptcy. They’ve been saying this same crapola for 40 years. I’m astounded so many people still believe it.
Vanderbilt has a higher payroll than the A’s and Pirates. Hey Rob, Where’s that Luxury Tax Check? My Country Club Dues are coming up?
I’m astounded large market fans can’tsee the forest for the trees.
I’m amazed that Small Market fans are so stupid that they don’t realize that every team gets 65 million a year from the TV deal and The cheaper ones get Luxury Tax checks and don’t even have a payroll that matches it. Suckers
Im astoundedlarge markwt fans dont know that salaries are not the total operating expenses of a baseball team and small markets have to invest more in things like scouting and player development because they can’t go out and buy a pennant. But you know, short sightedness has its advantages.
…there’s a sucker born every minute
And I suppose that the tickets,Parking , Hot Dogs and Beer are free in your parks. If you don’t even pay your talent what you get for FREE! So you keep raving about your young Starting P’s remember that when you’re waving goodbye to them when in ARB they get 5 million bucks and are sent packing because they’re too expensive. Keep crying poor while stuffing your pockets Nutting and Castellini. At least you have your fans buffaloed.
That is a very small part of revenue, especially if attendance is down like in moat small markets where the game is dying. Fans are not dumb and know the competitive disadvantage has gotten worse over the years.
Clepto is right. Large market fans always think they know how to spend a small market team’s money and have no clue. They cite the revenue sharing which does squat and the draft which they changed so the non playoff large markets have a shot at a higher pick. Don’t think people haven’t figured that out. Like most things, the large markets figured out a workaround and the MLB boys in NYC go along with it. The latest CBA was a joke for all but eight or so teams.
Enjoy your eight team league. It’s coming sooner than you think.
Can’t wait!!!
No but a League without the Pirates, Reds and A’s would certainly be more competitive. I’d rather have 27 teams that are competing than having 3 that are in EXCLUSIVELY to see how much money their pockets will hold. I don’t expect them to pay big money every year, But they should at least spend what they get for free.
I’m sure you have seen each team’s books and know they didn’t spend it.
I thought not.
Typical large market propaganda.
I don’t have to see the books, I just have to look at the crap that they put out on the field. The Citizens pay for the park, They get huge tax breaks, They get luxury tax money from the large markets, They get whatever they can get from a local TV deal added on What do they actually pay for? And don’t kid yourself that if the local deals fall through they get nothing because Manfred already said that MLB will take it over and they’ll still get paid. Plus ticket, Concessions and oh yeah evenly split money on apparel and all that stuff. Keep crying poor, I think your own trees are in your way. Boo Hoo.
The Brewers are in the same type of market as the A’s , Pirates, And Reds. yet they have a super ballpark and put a competitive product on the field which I commend them for. I’ve been to that park and and it’s beautiful and I’ve had nothing but good times there even as a Cub fan. They don’t cry and puke out excuse after excuse. They just get it done. My only regret is due to health problems I can’t get there anymore.
And they’11 get about $92M from MLB’s national broadcast deals just for showing up!
@uncle mike
Please tell us how much is costs to operate a baseball team. You keep mentioning how much is coming in. How much goes out? $65MM sounds like a big number, but compared to what?
How is it “for free?”
Well let’s see. If you don’t have to do anything at all but stuff your pockets when the League as a whole negotiates a TV contract that pays you 65 million annually BEFORE you even buy a baseball, What would you call it? Alms for the cheap? Even though nobody on the planet really wants to watch your minor league team play? Oh, except the 3 guys here who are crying and whining about no revenue.
https://youtube.com/shorts/4BiCnQmOEz0?feature=share Yup! This is what rich folks do.
Reds-Uncle Mike is the poster who thought Brad Keller and Mitch Keller were the same person in another article,
I wouldn’t take him too seriously.
Steve- Actually,That would be the fairest possible way around this gigantic problem.Put all of the large market teams in one division,the small market ones in another,and the mid size teams in two others,
Actually that was an idiot named Dad. But keep trying Mendoza. So far in your posts your batting about .200 Which explains your moniker anyway. Moron.
Mike-Thank you for the correction.
Ahole.
So, Dad IS YOUR Dad then? Explains tons. That and the Pittsburgh school system I guess.
Oh, And don’t bother trying to read the article by Tony Clark. It’ll just be way over your head. It’s much easier to make stuff up isn’t it? LMAO
I Have been on this site over 6 1/2 years and do not recall reading a poster like you Mike.
Congratulations.
Your site name should be GB.
For gigantic bloviater.
I have never seen someone so cocksure of himself but who has so little acumen and knowledge.,and who shows lack thereof time and time again.
Congratulations again.
I hope that you do not live in your mother’s basement as the smell of your bloviation would surely render you unconscious.
Good luck on that Mike..
Facts- I’ve been on this site since it’s started. I’ve seen tons of fools like you. My Moms 84 and lives in Florida. There are no basements. Gators and Snakes. Your Moniker should be MendozaLineMinus215. Since you haven’t been right about anything yet.
I stand by everything that I have written.
You are the type who likes to knock people and their ideas and belittle others.
And you bloviate,inflating your opinions with anything but facts.
You will never change and grow.
You are too stupid to do otherwise.
I will let you have the last word Mike.
Your type bores me way too much to put any more time into this discourse.
Thank God. Common ground.
What 8 will it be?
Unclemike1526-Don’t forget all the money each team got in Nov when the remainder of mlbbam was sold to Disney.
This one belongs to the Reds–Fans from both Large and supposed small markets are both idiotic in statements they make,
Unclemike1526-I was curious what team you root for and how long?
(This one belongs to the Reds)–It’s pretty much an 8 team league now with guest appearances by certain teams for a limited amount of years till their back sucking again.
Unclemike1526-Yes Brewers try harder than a lot of teams but they still never compete for the big prize.1st year i become a fan of the sport big time in 1982 was their only appearance,So while i commend them it’s not good enough,Better than the bottom feeder teams but still not competitive enough.Padres look good now how long will that last?
(PoisonedPens) and got more millions in Nov from selloff of MLB Bam
(Unclemike1526)-There’s a hell of a lot more than 3 teams not trying to compete.Some of the others give their fans a bone every 30+ years
Some people move back in with their parents to take care of them in their 70s, 80s and 90s.
Others have their parents move into their own home for the same reason. Strokes, dementia and falls become more common for the very elderly.
I know some people who live with their parents to save money and help a sibling through college or to help a sibling with child expenses. Sharing a roof can be pitiful or noble, it depends upon the facts.
It is a poor insult to say that you live in your Mother’s basement and I admit that I have been guilty of using it in the distant past.
Cubs and Sox. Thought it was obvious. But my bad. Yep I was born and raised in Chicago. I don’t really root against anybody. Except the Leaches. And although I respect the Cardinals I can’t stand em. LOL
They’re not teetering on the edge of bankruptcy and almost every team could afford more payroll, but this is a business. Had the Royals signed Judge, do you really think they’d recoup that investment and then some in more TV rights money, butts in the seats, and jersey sales? Probably not, so why would they do it?
People throw out San Diego as a small market team. It’s in the 17th largest metro area in the US, 20th if we’re counting # of teams, with Tampa Bay next. Metro area population over 3M for both, compared to Milwaukee at just 1.5M. SD ought to be able to support their team on that populace, but even then, they will never bring in the revenue that the Dodgers and Yankees do, meaning that these moves will always be scrutinized more carefully because there’s less room to absorb a catastrophic error.
I trust the words that are conveyed by Mendoza before I ever could from arrogant people like you Uncle Mike
You spew insults at anyone who disagrees with your nonsense
UncleMike: do you try to be that stupid? You do realize, aside from player payroll, a baseball team has vast other expenses, suchbas FO salaries, equipment, trainers, scouts, minimum of 4 other full roster teams, spring training facilites, travel expenses, etc. Stop being an idiot every day of your life.
Manny- There is a reason I used that insult.
He called me Dad.
My father passed away many years ago.
Maybe you should think first then type.
After you insulted my mother. You have as many faces as Reds boy. You spew crap and when it comes back at you then you cry. Are you 12? That would mean you started on this site when you were 6? Goes a long way explaining why you can’t comprehend the simplest of facts. Your organization is one of the cheapest in pro Sports. Live with it or move. And like you said, After this there’s really no point talking to an ignorant two faced troll like yourself. Ba Bye
And why do you think billionaires are lining up for the next franchise that goes up for sale? Use your common sense those guys make millions and there’s a reason we can’t see their books – – the anti trust exemption – – break that and you would see these owners are making bank that’s why they want in the leagues so bad. Wake the hell up!
Hey Uncle Mike, I always had the impression that if you were from Chicago you had to choose one team or the other. I’m a fan of both teams too but I’m from Wisconsin. Ive never understood why it’s been taboo to root for both, especially before interleague play. Do you think people in Chicago area are becoming more accepting of two team fans like you, or is it still best not let white Sox fans know you also root for the Cubs and vice versa?!
I’m not going to pay any credence to the insults but I can’t see where Mike is wrong. Maybe I didn’t read closely enough
Let’s revisit the info presented in the Post-Gazette’s investigative piece, shall we?
As middling as it is, ticket sales/gate, souvenir sales and concession cuts alone—alone—pay for the Pirates operating costs and MLB team/staff salaries
Add in MLB’s TV cut, local TV and other revenue streams—and all they have to finance are minor league operating costs, salaries and draft bonuses—-then the idea that somehow, Nutting is just scraping by is a children’s’ joke
I suspect one could find the same for the A’s and Reds
What part of this is so hard to understand? The entire idea of “revenue sharing” was to act as incentive for owners of small market teams to compete. No, they’re not going to get the big time free agents but they shouldn’t be a laughing stock either
I’ll give Nutting the benefit of the doubt at this particular point of the scenario. He or Huntington was wise enough to understand that even under this system, competing AND making money could not co-exist. So he adopted the Tampa Bay style. Ok
Understood
@YourDreamGM will tell you that the entire model got blown up during Huntington’s last couple years, as bad trades, poor scouting and player development left the cupboard bare from top to the Gulf League. So we’ve had this high school team playing at PNC Park
And I’ll give credit that Cherington put the model back into place. Whether it reaps dividends or how soon is anyone’s guess
But it’s pretty obvious now. And even with MLB’s closed books policy, no owner is just scraping by
There is a difference between spending money and blowing through it. Is paying Martin Perez 20 MM worth it? No. How about Marcus Semien at 25 MM for 7 years or Jon Gray at 14 million with his career ERA above 4.5 (about average at Coors)? No. That is the difference. Here, I do agree this deal, which would be about 105-110 million over 5 free agent years, is an example of being cheap. However, some deals are just absurd. Bogaerts, T Walker, Perez, Pederson, Conforto, Bellinger, and many others are just wasting money. There has to be a salary floor and a salary cap (both or none) in my opinion. Thus, teams wouldn’t overpay to get fewer years or be this cheap. There should be a soft cap and a hard cap at the top such that the commissioner’s office can just veto deals that push a team above the hard cap. Similar things should be done with a floor. Both can increase at the CPI level from last year. Maybe start at 50 MM and 250 MM?
Nice try Ranger. But you’re wasting your time talking to people who would rather cry woe is me, Than actually hold anyone accountable for it. As for the insults, I regret being sucked in by inferior minds into a whizzing contest. But they are people who hide in the shadows with absolutely no opinions of their own and bash people’s ideas who actually have thoughts. I thought dullards attacking people was what Twitter was for. But like I said, I’m out. This whole thread has gotten unbelievably boring. So Aloha! Just like the Pirates, Reds and A’s who are irrelevant, So are some of their fans. Not all of them, Just some of the ones on this thread.
I Bid you adieu Mike.
I am sorry to see you leave your fans from the A’s,Reds,and Pirates.
We have become irrelevant.
But inasmuch as your two teams have won one WS in 105 years and 114 years,perhaps not as much as you have.
Have a nice night Mike.
Dear Niton or whatever, I learned early in life it’s really stupid to hate something just because everyone else does. Everyone who’s ever read one of my posts knows I root for both teams. With 2 Championships in my lifetime I feel way better about it than my Dad did who never saw one. I’ve been talking way more about the Cubs this off season, Well, Simply because the Sox have mainly sat on their hands, While the Cubs have been totally active and more interesting. So all the White Sox fans know how I feel so by all means tell whoever you want, It’s common knowledge, Except for you I guess. I had a great chat once with a guy called TrumboJumbo who rooted for the Angels but recently figured this out also and also roots for the Dodgers now. Hate is boring. Keep going!
Mike-I do not hate you Mike.
I do not have the time nor energy to do that.
But you belittle others,which makes you a little man Mike.
You said that you hate leaches,but spelled it wrong.You meant Nutting.
It is the arrogant fans on this site that I feel sorry for.
Adieu means goodbye,and in a permanent manner.
At least we can come to,as you say,that common ground.Adieu Mike.
It’s amazing you thought that post was about you, When I clearly labeled it for the guy who made the joke about reporting me to Sox fans. But says a ton about you. I only replied because Ranger and I mostly get along fine and I didn’t know cornwhisperer at all but he made a lot of good points. See unlike you, They have their own opinions and are literate. Where you don’t and aren’t. I respect anyone who has their own opinion, But nobody who just finds something to bash like you. Twitter was really made for you, You should try that, But as I’ve seen how you are here, Twitter would just turn you into dust. Which is why I expect you’re here, Because they shredded you. I mean GBC and I rarely see eye to eye, But at least he has his own opinions. Guys whose Monikers are from failed horribly former Pirates well I’d say you’d get my point but you wouldn’t.
I knew that it was not addressed to me.
You thought that you were clever.
You started that thread by reacting to my post to Manny.
You did the thing that you are accusing me of.
You are a loser,Mike,and you know it.
Adieu Mike.
Do you realize over the last decade the Brewers have 6 winning seasons and the Pirates have 4?
How about the fact that the Brewers have made the postseason 4 times and the Pirates 3?
You’re just thinking of the last few years while the Pirates are in rebuilding mode. While the Pirates were winning the Brewers were rebuilding. It’s cyclical. The Brewers have been much better over the last 5 or 6 years, but over the next 5 or 6 I’d expect the Pirates to be better.
You conflating the late 90’s and 00’s Pirates with current ownership and Front Office. The Pirates have been in contention until September in 6 of the last 12 years. And that’s even with a complete rebuild the last 4 years. So the last time they developed a very good core they kept it together and competed for essentially a 6 year window (with a year on either side where they had solid teams). They also spent when they were at their peak and had a payroll well north of $100 million.
You’re right Bucotober. It has to be cyclical for small markets in this fouled up system foisted upon us.
And yet, the Pirates still finished no better than 15th in attendance when they were at their peak. Why should the owner spend money when fans won’t buy tickets?
Agreed. It’s just the nature of the MLB structure. Small market teams have to build for “windows”, and then hopefully rebuild fairly quickly (3 or 4 years) and do it again.
The only team that doesn’t fall into this category in the NL Central is the Cubs, and they aren’t very good right now despite almost unlimited resources.
This is a great point. The Pirates will never be above around 20th in payroll unless fans accept ticket price increases and still go to games.
Pdx- The Pirates have never been a really big draw in Pittsburgh.The City supports the Penguins and Steelers much better,even before the Steelers began getting good in the early 1970’s and the Penguins in the early 90’s.
That said,the atmosphere was electric in PNC Park during the 2013-2015 period
I have noticed over the last three and a half years of horrid play the real attendance seems to often be no more than 7-8000 fans no matter how many are announced.
This is not unlike several other small market teams.
In the 60’s and 70’s they did however have a lot of people who listened on the radio before TV showed all the games.
If they are like the 25 th market size does it make sense that they were no better than 15 th in attendance?
Does it make sense when a team making their third straight playoff appearance, equaling the most wins by the franchise in over 100 years, draws less than teams in smaller markets? Including one that lost 94 games? And barely outdraws (less than 40 K and 80 K) other teams that are also in smaller markets that lost 88 & 98 games?
A 98 win team making it’s third straight playoff appearance outdrew a 98 loss team from a smaller market by less than 80,000.
So, please, explain to me why the owner should be spending all sorts of money on the team when fans wouldn’t buy tickets.
You must be talking about the Padres,,Reds,and Brewers.
Maybe it had to do with a twenty year long losing streak.Would the Brewers have been able to withstand that?
Maybe those teams have younger fans.
Maybe this is where they spend their sporting dollars.
I do not camp on Nutting nearly as much as other posters.He should have spent more money in different areas such as getting decent backups and not trading Marte and Bell for scraps without having decent replacements.Their awful play is the worst that I have seen in 61 years and there is no excuse for being this bad for 3 1/2 years.
You seem to be fascinated with this subject.Why is that?
AGAIN, the team stops that twenty year losing streak. It’s on a 3 year playoff streak. It appears the people of Pittsburgh are grudge-holding douchebags. Yet another reason to move the team to a city that will care.
As far as the Brewers go, they had a LONGER losing streak. They went from 1982 to 2008 without a playoff appearance. Even in 2001, when both PNC and Miller Park opened, the Brewers, who had gone 10 years longer without making the playoffs, outdrew the Pirates, despite being in a smaller market.
I’m fascinated because all I ever hear from Pirate fans is how awful the owner is for not spending money. And the fact is, Pirate fans don’t support their team. It’s their own damn fault.
Pirate fans on this site are not douchebags.
You seem to have anger issues.That is a problem with a public site like this one.
Have you been kicked off the Brewers postings,or just want to cap on a lesser team?
The Pirates had two poor ownership groups that together lasted at least twenty years.Pirate fans know that.Fans from other teams almost never do.
As said by at least two other Pirate fan posters,Nutting is poor at PR.Those two ownership groups basically did not know what PR meant.They were just holding on,but trying to keep the team in Pittsburgh.They succeeded,to their credit.
The biggest thing that I have against Nutting is by having the worst team in baseball for 3 1/2 years we get all kinds from other teams of crazy posters,arrogant ones,those who know nothing about the Pirates or their history,and just plain trolls who just want to be ignorant or never have anything better to do.
@uncle i feel the same about the cubbies can’t stand them but respect them and there fans, 100+ years no chips and a lot of losing teams in between but over all them years most of the city stuck behind them so for that i respect that
Fans that won’t go to games when the team is winning, simply because the team lost in the past ARE douchebags and completely don’t deserve an MLB team. Time for that team to move to a city that might appreciate having an MLB team.
The A’s had history in Philadelphia and changed cities. The A’s had history in Kansas City and changed cities. The A’s have history in Oakland, but that’s not going to stop them from moving to Las Vegas. The Pirates having history in Pittsburgh shouldn’t stop the team from moving to a city that could and/or would actually support the team.
Those previous owners that “just held on, but tried to keep the team in Pittsburgh” failed. Keeping the team in Pittsburgh was a failure.
It’s nothing against the city of Pittsburgh. It’s simply that the team DID put a winning product on the field and spent money to do so and the fans still didn’t turn out. And then those same fans just whine about how awful the owner (and previous owners) are for not spending money on the team. Refusing to even consider that their not buying tickets is the reason the owner isn’t spending money. And then call anyone that points out these basic facts “troll.”
It to amazes me that you would call people in the Pittsburgh area douchebags when you know no one.You feel so strongly about this topic.but who knows why.
I guess to each their own.
We get a lot of trolls on this site for Reynolds and Nutting topics.
I just cannot fathom why you are so energetic and spirited about calling people in the Pittsburgh area douchebags when you know no one.
I do not doubt that some of it has to do with the young people losing interest in the sport because of the disparity in team revenue and the slowness of the game.Perhaps income levels in different cities can help to cause differences.You do not seem to accept any possible reasons that I have suggested.
To each their own.
In any event we can leave this conversation and I wish you well.
AGAIN (hey reading comprehension is your friend), ANY person, whether or not I know them personally, that doesn’t go to see a winning team because of previous losing is a douchebag. Whether they are from Pittsburgh or Orlando or Denver or ANYWHERE.
Go ahead. Cal me a troll. But, AGAIN, I’m only pointing out truths that you find uncomfortable.
I stand by my statements.
I doubt that you are a troll.But for some reason you have centered all of your very intensity on calling Pittsburghers who used to support their baseball team and who have wandered away from that even when they are winning your favorite word.
There is something very sad in that.
But I am done.This is a no end argument in that you have lost all sense with reality.
You guys bid each other adieu a total of 12 times
Please keep up Steve.You seem like a fairly smart guy,but that was with another poster.
It seemed more like 112 times.
But I bid you adieu.And Hopefully you know what that means.
Thats $1 million dollars for every game they will probably win…
Signing Reynolds is the least of the problems, AT&T Sportsnet, the television network contracted to televise Pirate games, wants to exit their contract, leaving the possibility of games not being broadcast.
They are threatening bankruptcy if another company fails to purchase their conglomerate
This is being reported in the Tribune Review, a western Pennsylvania publication
Relax. Manfred already said MLB will pick up the options until another provider is found. Nothing lost.
I trust Manford as much as I trust Nutting’s word or yours
Nothing lost except the extra money fans would pay to MLB for their streams on top of the money already spent on the cable package to watch the games on a network that no longer airs the games.
This organization is a joke. This owners only concern is that he’s being exposed by other teams ownership. His payroll is a joke. It’s terrible for the Pirates fans. MLB needs to force him to sell. You’re trying to nickle and dime your best player who at this point can’t wait to get out of this organization. If you care so much about him then you should trade him.
The entire Pittsburgh saga is about decades of not addressing a winning developmental formula that would properly allow the team to spend money wisely. They could NEVER buy a team. They just can’t ever seem to build one, either. And it’s an issue that goes back to the 80s at this point. They did have success if it can really be called that…a decade ago. But even given the model of other successful small market teams…they can’t seem to follow suit. Pittsburgh being cheap is irrelevant. They rarely have the players TOO wisely spend money on.
He is stating the obvious that MLB HQ in NY don’t want to hear.
I do think Nutting articulated something very well – the last paragraph – that is a common misconception though: revenue disparity and competitive disparity are different things. Although they can crossover, one doesn’t specifically lead to the other.
I really believe you will see changes (whatever those are) in the economic structure of MLB after the Bally Sports bankruptcy. That’s a ton of money MLB is losing and the small markets won’t be able to take that loss and pay current FA market demands.
If players maintain their salary demands, it’s going to be very problematic. To be clear, I’m not blaming the players or speaking on whether their contracts are fair; I’m just making an observation of market functionality. Obviously a lot can change and MLB could turn this into a profitable venture depending on how they handle it, so there’s always opportunities in these types of outcomes too.
That makes way more sense than, Large market fans can’t see the forest for the trees. We see, They can’t. They just keep swallowing it from guys like Nutting and Castellini. If anybody really thinks Nutting WANTS to pay Reynolds, they’re nuts. Lewis Black said, ” Where can one find a drug that can make one So delusional”.
No one is a bigger critic of Castellini, especislly this offseason, than I am. Anyone reading comments here can attest to that.
That doesn’t change the fundamental problem with the game.
Because in a talent based industry it makes a ton of sense to, Cheap out on the talent, Then try to sell the Local TV rights to somebody for big money? Because advertisers are jumping to pay big money to put their products on a program that nobody is watching. Yeah, Yeah, That’s the ticket. Poisoned Pen is 100% correct.
Yep. No one sees the underlying reason when it smacks them in the kisser.
Forest. Trees. Out.
You’re the one who can’t see. Anything apparently. Just explained to you how much money they actually take in and how much they put out and you’re Stevie Wonder. I’ve heard you bash Castellini all off season but then you defend him here? Why? How many faces do you really have? ROTFLMAO.
Posted it above. Reading is a skill.
My problems with Castellini have nthing to do with this subject which is the fundamental problems with the game when it comes to revenue disparity which is the subject here. Keep up.
No way are they spending 200 million or more unless things change. But they can spend 130 instead of 80 because they have before. There’s my beef.
Again, reading is a skill and some knowledge is actually a good thing. Look outside your little hole sometime and you’ll see a whole league of 20 other teams out there somewhere that don’t have it as good as yours.
But I know big city folks don’t think anyone important lives outsoide the big city, as the big apologists for them here have demonstrated.
If the majority of the folks that live outside of the “big city” are anything like YOU, then you’re right they’re not important.
I agree reading IS a skill. When are you going to learn it? Seems like most people here agree with the reason your owner is cheap.
I don’t think too many people would have a problem with teams like the pirates spending 130 mill on payroll. It is the 60 million payrolls that piss people off. Hence why people are bashing those small market teams. I really don’t think your point you made here and the ones you are arguing with are really that different. Not sure why you are so upset when you just said something very similar to what they are saying.
Jay-Small market teams have to have excellent farm systems in order to compete for the playoffs on any regular basis.They have certain periods where they can and then they have to reboot.
I think that Nutting should not have been as cheap in certain areas as he has been but why should he pay for high priced free agents when they are going to change the number of wins form 68 to 76?And also take the spots of young players coming up?
Nutting has his faults but the business acumen of many posters on this site is slim and none,and slim is walking out the door.
I think the issue the fans have is that over the past 30 years (aside from a decent 4 season stretch from 2013-’16) its been the same story over and over with the farm producing too little to make an impact and the few that do can’t get out of Dodge fast enough
The truth is the MLB Economic System has been created and endorsed by Owners, Players, and Agents. They all believe the game is better off giving the larger markets a competitive advantage in the form of payroll flexibility.
Small market Owners are paid off to accept this arrangement in the form of luxury tax payments.
Could Nutting and other small market owners pay more in salaries? Definitely. Would it result in more championships? Not likely. The non-large market teams who have a legacy of competing for championships do it on the basis of exceptional player development.
I’m not saying BN shouldn’t spend more, he definitely should. But there’s an argument to be made it doesn’t make sense for him to do so until the organization’s player development puts a core in place that can compete with the big boys.
Not necessarily. They could take on bad contracts in trades to aquire more high end prospects in order to speed up the process. If being competitive is truly the goal then they should be spending money on stuff like that.
You really don’t have to do much more than look across the state. what Cleveland does with the same amount of revenue as compared to the Reds. The Reds are eating Moustakas’ 22 million this year and 3.5 million they owe Griffey until the day he dies I guess, and next year Votto goes bye bye you’re looking at a 20 million dollar payroll which will probably make Castellini rub one out. You really think he’s gonna spend that money? I bet Cleveland would. Again- Functional Organization vs. Dysfunctional One. You could tell that guy that til you’re blue in the face and it wouldn’t stick.Be like trying to crack an egg on the wall and get it to stick. He’d much rather make excuses for his owner than figure it out because it’s easier to whine.
Jay-Scott gets it.
How many years ago was the last time a deal like this was made?
Big spending teams would rather just eat the negative value contract vs giving away enough prospect capital.
Bob NUtting is plus about a billion dollars on the Pirates, which have been one of the four worst teams in MLB during his tenure. So excuse me if I don’t really believe a word he says…
Really? Are you his accountant? Have you seen the books?
Another large market apologist. most likely.
The apologist is not our enemy. The baseball lover is not our enemy.
Nutting spent 92 million to buy the club and Forbes estimated the value of the franchise in 2022 at 1.32 billion. So even if he hasn’t come anywhere close to turning a billion in straight profits he certainly will and frankly it will be much closer if not exceed 2 billion whenever he (or his children if they eventually take over) sells the team.
Furthermore assuming a conservative estimated annual profit of 10 million per year that amounts to 160 million profit for the duration of his ownership. Though we will never know what his individual annual profits from the franchise are it’s safe to assume he’s already made more than what he paid for the team, probably even accounting for inflation, and that he stands to make well over 10 times that amount when he cashes in.
Forbes publishes each MLB team’s revenues and profits from the season prior every spring
Sorry but Poisoned Pens is spot on
Forbes publishing stuff like that all the time, revenue projections, franchise valuations, etc.
Do you think teams open up their books to Forbes?
Not defending Nutting at all, but Forbes literally just guesses.
I gave up on Forbes magazine following the 2012 election. In the October issue that year Steve Forbes assured readers that Mitt Romney would be the next president. I don’t care that he got it wrong, but he never admitted his error in subsequent columns.
annual revenue and payroll is reported to MLB every year so I’m assuming that information is how Forbes is able to calculate profit
So, that’s a “yes, I think teams open their books to Forbes” because…what…MLB generously says “hey come in and take a look at our most guarded info, hope it makes for a nice article”….?
I think that he is including the increase in the value of the team.
“Another large market apologist.”
You are the biggest penny-pinching owner apologist on this site. In every article about team spending, you’re here making excuses for cheapskates like Nutting. Teams receive something like $130-150 million in revenue sharing (both from other teams and from national revenues from MLB).
Nutting can spend but doesn’t. Period. He’s in the league to make a profit, not to field a competitive team. This is reality and no amount of excuses you can make is going to change it.
Careful or he’ll mute you lol.
You’re right, rct, Nutting is in business to make a profit, but according to every Forbes published reports on MLB teams earnings since 2014, Nutting has earned a minimum of $35 million dollars annually
His lease for using PNC Park is minuscule but the city gets a cut of the gate revenue
Pennsylvania taxpayers funded the construction of PNC Park
Where is the line for owners like him to cut into his profits to put a competitive team on the field?
I don’t need to see his books. The team is profitable according to the GM; the Forbes estimate on team value is $1.32B; Nutting allegedly paid ~$275M total to become majority owner; .
Funny how the Steelers and Penguins aren’t considered “small market teams” isn’t it?
Those two teams are in leagues with a salary cap and totally shared revenue streams. Apples and oranges.
Education on what you are discussing regardinh small market BASEBALL teams might be helpful for both of you large market apologists. But that wouldnt fit your agenda.
You remind me of politicians.
You’re either some weird variety of conspiracy theorist or you’re just dumb. Maybe both.
“Education on what you are discussing regardinh small market BASEBALL”
You have been refusing to educate yourself about the amount of revenue sharing there is in baseball. The small market teams are given over $100 million in revenue sharing every year, and most estimates have them near $150 million. Nutting (and teams like your Reds) are making boatloads of cash that they are pocketing.
I am quite educated that payroll is not the only expense if a baseball team. Are you?
I’m quite aware the Pirates, Reds and A’s could spend more, as you know from my Reds rants, but they are not going to be spending big money under any circumstances.
Thry don’t have it, and never will under this fouled up system.
Nutting family is plus around a billion. Family is the keyword.
Pirates value is still the bottom third in the league.
Pirates were is the red so deep before the Nuttings loaned the franchise that MLB was about to take action.
Just some notes is all.
I’m sure Cincinnati has similar debt from the Schott and Lindner eras.
Reds were in top 5 in payrolls during the Schott years. Despite her failings in other areas, there was a desire to win at all costs.
Just pointing that out.
Nutting’s family wealth comes from publishing, they own a string of newspapers in West Virginia
At some point in time, he’ll sell the franchise because his children aren’t interested in baseball and want nothing to do with the Pirates.
small correction. Ogden publishes all over the country.
some of the minority owners in the early teens wanted to sell when the team became profitable again and recovered the losses from the 2000s
My guess is once bob is gone the family will just appoint someone to the chair to continue to have a stake in it. I just say that because it is probably what I would do.
He also owns a few papers in PA. He buys them, lays off most of the staff and then has a national service put them together. I saw it happen in my community. Admittedly, newspapers are basically a thing of the past through.
I started my own local paper covering St. Louis, Michigan and Gratiot County.
https://stlouissentinel.com/
Is actually on paper?
Not on paper. Just online. We have two local papers around here, and neither has the resources to cover everything. I have beaten them to stories three or four times.
so it isn’t a newspaper, 🙂
Still congrats, genuinely like the simplicity of the site. no fuss no muss to the point.
paginating some of the bigger stories and getting a publisher to publish those weekly could boost your profile and add a bonus to advertisers. finding a decent publisher at a reasonable price can be hard. maybe contact Bob’s company haha.
i guess that is something way outside of baseball though…
Okay so an 8 yr extension would take him through his age 36 season season assuming it started next year with an AAV of $16.75. That seems like a more than reasonable deal for a player that is willing to stay with your organization. If you can’t afford that then you have no business owning a team. On the other hand, if you’re trying to trade him for the value you’re wanting in return that is not matching up with what your pocketbook is willing to dole out. I don’t think they have to or need to trade him but how do you expect other teams to give you a certain return in prospects if you’re not willing to pay him the value that he is worth?
They can afford one of those type contracts. One…and if they guess wrong, it sets them back until it’s done.
They paid over $20M to guys close to 40. They can afford to give an extension to a player in their prime. Their payroll sits at like 60M right now according to spotrac. A majority of those guys on the payroll making significant money won’t be back next year and all your young guys are making league minimum or very little the next 6 years. That means only 2 or 3 of those years would be a payroll issue if they all went to arbitration and got big raises which is 100% unlikely. This team can afford a $100M payroll. If they’re winning, they draw like they have in the past. If you’re not willing to commit to someone then no one will want to come help them win in FA. If you want to get creative front load the deal and his age 34-36 years make like $10M. There are ways to have multiple $10-15M contracts on their team. I understand they can’t afford a $200-$300M+ contract but they should be able to work a Reynolds extension into their payroll numbers.
Agreed. I always say they need to front load those deals. I would sign him myself if they can do it less than 200 million. They need a cornerstone.
Just pointing out teams like ours can’t miss.
Keeping in mind that it took 20 years for the Pirates to sign a player for higher than the then team record $60 million that they gave to Jason Kendall and it may take them another 20 years to sign someone for more than the $70 million they gave to Ke’Bryan Hayes. There is zero chance of Reynolds staying beyond his arbitration years unless he takes an absurdly team friendly deal, and that ship didn’t sail, it sank…
Why should any team sign a player pre-free agency to anything but, a team friendly deal?
Next CBA, if the 20 smaller markets don’t get together and say we aren’t passing crap until this system is fixed, they are fools.
You should change your handle to Small Market Crybaby. Sheesh give it a rest.
Large market fans dont want to hear the truth. Especially fans of teams that don’t take advantage of their massive advantage to win a championship.
Not true, Reds. I had a blast last year… did you?
Although I agree with you, don’t blame the fans for truly feeling like they have a shot. It’s the players and the owners that are causing this. If the players/owners cared they could fix it.
you’re an obvious Yankee fan, Steve. They never want to hear the truth
Mets? Lol
The disparity will not go away without a ceiling. And the players will not agree to a ceiling without a floor. But hey it’s a monopoly, who is to say that every year teams should not re-draft, rotisserie-style. I am open to creative solutions. But no cap without a floor.
There can never be a salary cap as long as teams are able to negotiate their own local media deals. It would be a disaster for the game. The Dodgers can operate with a payroll no other team can come close to competing with and be profitable because their media deal is so far above anyone else’s plus they get the $100+ million like all other teams from the national media deals. The Dodgers are an extreme outlier in baseball. On the other side of the sport are teams like the As, Rays, Pirates, etc.. any team can have a high payroll. All teams are businesses and they all have lines of credit with financial institutions like all other businesses. They can operate above their revenue streams with the lines of credit with the hope of success to grow revendues through gate and licensed apparalndeals and ultimately a bigger local media deal. If it doesn’t work, the owner sells the team and pays off the debts through the sale and still sale and still makes a huge profit from the sale. This latter practice you see with the Mets and Padres. It seems like it may work out for Seidler, for Cohen it is still too early to tell. Then there are teams like the Pirates who don’t want to operate out of debt on the bet of increased revenues and sustained success, so they stay within their budgets to be profitable every year. But again, regardless of the owners wealth, not a single one of them cutting personal checks to cover team expenses. They sign off of credit usage and payback plans or eventually sell or take on other investor to cover existing debts.
With a cap under the current structure, everyone would be complaining about how rich the Dodgers ownership is getting because they wouldn’t be able to spend to their revenue potential. All of the left over money would just line the pockets of the already rich owners.
I believe that one of the biggest misconceptions to competitive balance is that is solely a function of payroll.
If we want true “competitive balance” then, imho, it needs to be addressed in several ways: drafting, payroll, cost of living, etc.
My point is that many small market fans believe that making every team have the same upper limit is fair, but it’s not. That specifically puts teams in expensive cities and states at a disadvantage. If we want to fix revenue disparity for the purpose of competitive balance, the payroll needs to be adjusted for the area.
Essentially, each team should have a different cap and it would be a certain percentage variance from other teams.
But most players don’t live all year. where the play. Plus even at league minimum the have the means to live in any city in the world. Location neutralized salaries would have zero impact. Even income tax free states only matter for the games played in that state.
That’s true but as a home team the taxes could be exponentially higher. It certainly makes a difference and doesn’t matter where they reside for the taxes on that salary.
My point is that you can’t cap it evenly and ignore the loss of money to taxes, which is the primary purpose of players playing the game. If money matters, it has to matter. It can’t matter only when it hurts small markets but not matter when it hurts larger ones. It’s the inherent flaw in the small market argument, just like with competitive balance.
I understand your view, but in my opinion the biggest issue is with the local media deals each team has. I think it will be very interesting to see what happens with Bally Sports. The Dodgers are in a completely different league then every other team when it comes to that revenue source. Teams like Boston, Jays, Yankees, Philly and Seattle are also are also on another team but at least theirs is comprehensible. The Cardinals are a bottom half media size city but a top half but they have the viewership numbers to justify it. Plus they have ownership in BSM. STL comes in just under San Francisco and we’ll ahead of the Mets. Then there are the bottom teams that have almost no media deal compared to the top end. The teams with the top media deals are at such a huge revenue advantage before ever selling a ticket. Then it becomes a chicken or the egg paradox. To get the big media deal you need to have big viewership demand within the territories MLB allots you. To get the viewership demand you usually have to have a competitive team. A competitive team either takes buying players or a sustained period of successful drafting. So if paying players is the direction, where does the money come from to start the cycle and increase viewership demand to eventually get the big TV deal?
Okay, sorry, I misunderstood that then. Yeah, the local TV deals can create a huge disparity especially with the Bally fiasco.
Cost of living must also be a factor in establishing so-called parity. Spending half the season in NYC is not the same as living half the season in KC.
With a league minimum salary of $720,000 that cost of living difference isn’t that noticeable for half a year. At that income level it’s a difference of wants, not needs. Sure, you can get more for your dollar in KC for a residence but there are super expensive places everywhere. Plus, if they rent, it’s a tax write off.
Correct. How many businesses last when the owner writes personal checks to cover business expenses?
You need to keep in mind that a cap would probably be 160M. All revenues would be shared, not 48%, and, over time, the players would take quite a financial hit.
The local regional TV deals are shared also, at 48%, The dodgers, Phillies and Red sox are still big winners, but not as much as the the difference between a smaller market 28M/yr a deal and a Dodger 210M/yr deal. Don’t hold me to the exact numbers.
SCarl
There can be a floor of 100 million and a cap of 300 million. It will not fundamentally alter the way things are now except to get four or five of the worst owners to start spending more and reign Cohen in. This will make the other 20+ owners happy and the figures should offset for the players to ok it as long as there is an automatic COLA.
Ironically the Pirates are the team that broke the bank in one area where there was a chance for small market teams to close the gap in competitive disparity when they signed Josh Bell in the draft. Now there’s a cap and assigned slot values.
Under Peter Seidler’s stewardship, the Padres have proved the idiocy of your statement.
Really? What have they won? I’ll wait.
They’ve won the offseason so many times
If you come see a game at Petco sometime, you’ll see what the fans of this great city have won.
How many WS have they won because that’s what measures greatness, not the stadium
SMH
I wasn’t talking about the stadium. Atmosphere, attendance and fan excitement make the game fun for any team’s fans. Though I don’t expect the Reds, Marlins, A’s, fans of the world to understand this.
I don’t care that the 1984 Padres lost the World Series to the Tigers because they had a great season and won a thrilling NLCS against the Cubs (after losing first two games). Check out this Goose Gossage clip on You Tube where he tells the story of how he refused to walk Kirk Gibson and gave up a homer on the next pitch. It was great to see that he can laugh about it now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRGWEN9F6rA
atmosphere, fan excitement and attendance still doesn’t make for greatness
Winning the World Series does
Dude, I’m not disagreeing with you lol
I never claimed anything about “greatness”, you just keep saying it 🙂
The general point I was trying to make was that most reasonable fans would say they enjoyed the incredible season the Padres just had, despite coming up short in the end.
I’m calling that a win for the team’s fans because of the excitement and optimism it cultivates for future seasons.
You’re twisting that into a purposeless argument about something I didn’t even say.
If you could go away that would be be greatness.
I’m sure the offices at Petco Stadium are filled with trophies from their off season victories
I’m not your Dude
Steve Cohen-Please take your last advice to The Man.
That would be better than “greatness”.
Steve Cohen does not own anyone but you.
He is helping to ruin baseball by greatly inflating salaries for everyone else.And don’t tell me that these players deserve it.He is an outlier whose only goal is to buy a championship..He is your hero.Maybe you should think about that one.
Nah, but you’re my b*tch
Another angry Pirates fan… where are these nitwits coming from?
Steve- I did not know that you were so funny.
Probably a lay down comedian.
We are all transported New Yorkers who did not make the grade there.
We are all angry that you sent us away.
First, San Diego is a market filled with wealthy people and wealthy businesses. Second, San Diego has not sustained their model for a long enough period of time to be impactful on the system.
Manny – “…San Diego is a market filled with wealthy people and wealthy businesses.”
No more than Chicago, Manny. I’ve lived in both places. There are plenty of crappy places in San Diego County.
Prov
Chicago? Sure, I agree with that. But Chicago is a huge city and easily supports two teams.
My comment was in response specifically to your mischaracterization that SD has only wealthy people.
This is an odd take, clearly from someone who knows nothing about San Diego County.
Prov
I said that San Diego is filled with wealthy people and wealthy businesses. No reasonable person would interpret my comment to be saying that only wealthy people live there. I grew up in Southern California and I know which towns have more and which have less. On January 2023 the median listing price for a home in San Diego was 925,000. Compare that to Cincinnati at 230,000 and Pittsburgh at 219,000 or Chicago at 330,000. The figure for San Diego is higher than Hawaii or New York City.
Redsy, the problem isn’t the bottom 20, it is the middle 10. Teams in the biggest markets can afford big payrolls. The bottom teams get Competitive Balance draft picks. The ones in the middle get neither.
Hmm let’s see liberal gov’t, liberal owners, causing the same reaction. Sadly that’s not news.
Nutting’s a Trump supporter and a lifelong conservative so spare me
Its not faux news for sure!
What does Trump have to do with MLB???
He is just pointing out Nutting’s politics not making a partisan jab.
dpsmith22 said liberal government, liberal owners causing the same reaction
is reading comprehension a problem for you. for love of the game
Ok, TheMan, I amend my complaint to say what do Trump/conservatives/liberal gov’t or owners have to do with MLB??? I didn’t mean to single out your comment.
If you keep saying that he’ll buy a team. 😉
my apologies For Love of the Game
by the way that movie with Kevin Costner is one of my favorite baseball movies
Just the one poster said it’s liberal owners and the other poster pointed out that Nutting is no “liberal”.
How do you fix the fact that large market owners paid more to buy their teams than small market owners? I doubt profits will be evenly distributed among teams when the cost to buy a team is not even.
The Man 3- World Series wins are not the end-all be-all of measuring franchise success. Winning it all is hard. Look at the Dodgers recent excellence with only one short-season title to their name. They have most definitely been successful despite the lack of championships. So stop with the simpleton’s view of judging teams by world series wins. They are accomplished by winning a few short series where luck plays a big role. I would say that the 1990’s Braves great run with only one title was far better than the Marlins getting lucky and winning two random years and sucking the rest of the time.
Using your logic, the Pirates of the 1970’s should be considered greatness
6 division titles and 2 WS wins
But the 70’s belong to the A’s and Reds
HAmmerin’- You are correct,but every team needs to have hope at least about half of the seasons that they are the one to win the WS that year if everything goes right for them.
It is the ultimate prize.
.Small market teams rarely have that hope.
The 70s also belonged to the Pirates in perception and in fact. The Reds were slightly better than the Pirates in the 1970s.
It costs more to live in NYC than Pittsburgh too and I’m sure the hot dogs and beer cost more too. That’s the cost of living in a place. Your point is?
Revenue disparity. Want more revenue? Sell more tickets. Want to sell more tickets? Put a winning team on the field. You can’t expect people to buy tickets to go see Josh Van Meter and Zack Collins.
I’m happy with the moves they’ve made this off-season, but to claim revenue disparity while fielding a garbage team for years is a joke. I know Pgh is a smaller market, but look at Pirates/Steelers/Pens attendance when teams are winning. They show up across the board.
Two major issues with that assumption.
Fallacy #1: attendance doesn’t matter anywhere close to what most people think in regards to profitability of MLB franchises.
Fallacy #2: the gap between selling out PNC Park every game and current attendance numbers isn’t nearly as big as most people assume
You are right that it’s a fallacy that attendance doesn’t matter. It absolutely does! If they don’t buy tickets, they won’t buy merchandise, and won’t watch on TV. That means those revenue streams will also be smaller. No one pays top dollar for broadcasting rights to something with low viewership. The difference between Pittsburgh and NY is the local tv contract (and Pitt’s provider just missed a payment).
3% of baseball team finance is gate. Another apologist failing. When MLB starts losing money, they will make changes. Until then, big markets will rule. MLB wants them to.
Where do you get that number from? If you take away league wife revenue sharing of the $100+ million each team gets at a minimum I’d bet that number to be higher. It’s also got to be a league average skewed by the bottom teams. Sure for low attendance teams, that may be the case, but for teams like the Cardinals they sell 3 millions tickets a year, that number should be much higher.
I got to come back to this 3% number pulled out of nowhere. The Cardinals sell 3 million plus tickets a year. If the average ticket is $50, that’s $150 million in gate revenue. So if thats’s only 3% of their revenues stream, that means they bring in more that $5 billion in revenue a year.
Then why charge for tickets at all? Why increase ticket price for higher interest games? It matters in the overall picture much more than you’re saying.
Also, the gap is massive. There is no way they sold anywhere near half the tickets last season.
Overall, the better the team plays the more people attend/watch at home/support through merchandise sales.
Here we have someone who doesnt do math and 4 idiots who upvotes stupidity.
Google Josh Van Meter fan club. 2.1m members. Where do you think the tick sales came from?
Television contracts for small market teams aren’t lucrative. AT&T sportsnet broadcast the Pirates games and the market surrounding Pittsburgh is barely over 3 million people.
It’s not just gate or merchandise revenue that contributes to the total revenue for a team
@Jm412 time for their games kills their ticket sales during the week. 7:35 pm games for an east coast team, is murdering their nightly attendance. Only on Friday and Saturday do the Pirates fair fairly well on ticket sales on a good year. This is where I wish the Pirates remained in the NL East instead of the Central. I liked the 5pm games and heading home by 10 pm the latest. These 7:35 pm games makes it miserable driving home later and sometimes at midnight, 1 am. They need to either reshape the divisions or adjust each game accordingly to the home teams desired start time. For Pittsburgh, 5pm during the week, 6:30pm on Friday and Saturday nights with 1pm Sunday games. Fans of Pittsburgh gets shafted from owners to schedule times. It’s utterly nightmarish driving through Pittsburgh at midnight. People can’t see during daylight, night time is chaos and too much road rage and accidents. Especially, around the PA Turnpike
Let the wealthier owners spend as much as they want to spend (and without monetary penalty). And let the poorer owners spend as little as they want to spend.
All industries/fields have actuaries that determine industry norms.
MLB actuaries determine a window of payroll that they determine give all teams a fair shot at being competitive. Here’s the catch. Assign a number value to each team’s win based on their payroll number.
Example.
Stay within a payroll window between 100 mil and 200 mil and 1 win is assigned the value 1 (one).
Between 201 and 250 the value is .95
50 + 99 also is .95
251 plus is .90
49 + under is also .90
One caveat. If you’re an owner that consistently stays below 49 mil maybe after 3 consecutive years the other owners can vote to kick you out “of the club”. IE force you to sell the team.
@piratesfan1981 they’ve had 7:05 starts for years. Last year actually flexed quite a few to 6:35 starts in April, May, and September – which was nice. I’m ten minutes from the park, so I don’t mind the 7:05 starts, but I’d be fine with as early as 6:05. 5 would be pushing it for a lot of folks.
@jm412, you mean after the switch of the NL East to the NL Central Division? Prior to that, I remember quite a few games being 5:30-6pm through the week when they were on the East. A few games here and there a little later due to playing west coast teams and they started no later than 8 pm.
@piratesfan1981, they’ve had 7:05 starts since at least 2003. Only home games after 7:05 since then have been due to national broadcast. I know the 7:35 starts carried into the late 90’s for sure, but I think they ended those in 2002, if not sooner. 5:30 would still be a bit tough for those a little further out to get to.
The Pirates s tanked. It’s a strategy any team can use. The Cubs and Astros used it to great affect. The Nationals too.
Is it just me, or does Bob Nutting go out of his way to make excuses for his unwillingness or inability to fund the Pirates at a competitive level? Other teams perceived as “small market”, such as Rays, Brewers and (sometimes) Royals have figured out how to field competitive rosters year in and year out by investing in their player development systems and finding a few mid-level veterans to mentor the younger players.
The excuses need to stop. If Nutting is not financially able to expand payroll to a league average and field more a more competitive team, he needs to sell the team. He thinks small and so his franchise becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Nutting is a top 10 wealthiest owner in all of MLB. But his personal financial success is what allows him to by an MLB team, but it’s not really related to their payroll. There is a separation of ownership vs business that gets ignored. The Pirates have a business model that’s based off revenue projections and profitability. The big market clubs don’t spend so much because their owners have so much more personal wealth than other owners, but rather because they can get more revenue from TV deals, advertising, gate sales, etc…. Sure, some of the Uber rich owners are willing to let the team operate in the red for a season or two in hopes of making it up through lost season success (or arrogance Cohen) but that’s not all owners. Player checks are cut from the teams bank accounts, or the owners personal accounts. Not to mention the MLB clubs are responsible for the minor league salaries and benefits as well. An arguement can be made for how much of a cut from the bottom line does Nutting keep for himself. He could decide to not make a salary from ownership so it can go back to players, but he doesn’t have to and we’ll never know. It’s a circular issue with small market teams. It’s takes the revenue to make it possible to invest in the players, it it takes the players to draw interest and increase the revenue. So once they are able to get the players through drafting, it takes the right leadership to know how to turn that into sustainable revenue and player investments to keep it generating.
I agree with all your points and I don’t ever expect Nutting to operate the Pirates in the red for even a single year but in the past he has made comments to the effect that if fans show up he will spend which both ignores the financial reality that the primary source of revenue for MLB teams being TV deals and not attendance and also shifts the onus/burden of having a successful team from himself to the fans. Now he’s saying that moving away from the model of fielding the team as cheaply as possible in ’17, ’18 and ’19 didn’t work which is placing them blame of failing to field a competitive team on spending too much and not the (poor) quality of work of those in charge when the team did spend.
I didn’t read Mackey’s article but to me the telling quote as stated in this article is “I continue to look at baseball as one part of a much broader bucket.”
Nutting will spend money as long as it doesn’t cut into his annual profit of $50 million dollars
If you can pnly think of two teams, and sometimes three, thats the exception rather than the rule. Nice try.
How many teams do you consider to be small market? There’s thirty teams in the whole league and six are in New York, LA and Chicago. Are the remaining 24 all small market?
Add any team to that with a massive local TV deal.
Then Do you subtract the Mets out from the big market teams, since their TV deal is comparitivly bad?
If you look at the size of the markets, you will find that NY is 9X the size of KC. That’s enormous! Tough to balance that to an even playing field.
The NFL does it just fine. Of course they have a salary cap and true revenue sharing too.
Ok but compare St. Louis dirty bird spending to your Royals and the difference is as long as the Missouri River.
Milwaukee, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Colorado, even Minnesota are considered small market teams
The sport will never expand with owners like Nutting in the game.
Wrong. Baseball will struggle to expand under its current revenue management process. Every other league has a cap system.
Contraction will happen before expansion under this system.
They should contract. Or at least force owners like yours to sell.
I’m sure you will enjoy baseball when it is diwn to 8 teams, as long as one of them is yours.
Just illustrates the problem with the country as a whole.
Contraction is throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Baseball is a monopoly. Any owner not willing to spend 100 million in payroll at least once every three years should be required to sell within five years.
If that’s what the market will bear… then that’s the way it should be.
Yup. The RS schedule will be 3 games against NY, followed by 3 games against NY, followed by 3 games against NY…..
Why should he sell? What owner will make a difference. The club is aware of its total addressable market. Unless the owner is willing to personally lose his own money, the club has to opperate within its business plan that is built around profitability. I don’t think there is an owner in the game that is willing to annually cover team losses. The way Cohen and Seidler are glowing, they will end up selling the team and paying off the debts they allowed the team to accrue with the pro it’s from the sale. Unless of course their gambles pay off in sustained playoff success.
I think that the small teams are three each in the central divisions and Oakland and Tampa Bay.Pirates,Reds,Brewers,Twins,Royals,Guardians.
MLBTR loves to report on the Pirates spending woes. I am betting 6 years 110 million is offered at some point this season if the young core is showing improvement
Reynolds is not worth a 3 figure salary. He looks good on the Last place Pirates but he probably won’t be better than mediocre on a better team.
I presume you mean a nine-figure contract like $100,000,000, not three-figure salary like $500. He’s a well above-average player, but may not be elite.
Yeah that’s why all these good teams have offered some pretty nice prospect packages for him. Because he’s “mediocre.” Just look at his WAR numbers and you’ll see that he’s quite good. But then you probably don’t believe in that WAR stuff anyway, right?
WAR is a bad primary stat but a decent secondary stat. Here is why: fielding percentage and range are very dependent on the official scorer and/or the pitcher types (strikeout vs groundball vs flyball vs homerunball pitchers like Kolby Allard). There is too much variance in that, but even then, WAR actually cuts down on his defense. I’d divide that defensive runs below average number across Bref and Fangraphs by 2. Still, you do have a point that he is worth quite a bit.
half of the free agents that signed this offseason weren’t worth 6 figure salaries but they set the precedent
He’s not wrong, the revenue disparity in a league without a hard cap is a huge problem for baseball but… he’s not in a place to say it. Had the Pirates spent to their max instead of lining his pockets and were still struggling to compete then it would be a reasonable statement from him. Instead it just looks like whining when you spend 70m but likely afford twice that and complain about the teams that easily can spend 250m having an unfair advantage.
Nice post, well put.
Exactly, we need a floor of 100 million to justify a cap of 300 million.
I am going to again mention @YourDreamGM and a long set of posts about all of this that we had before Christmas. Generally opened my eyes to what’s been going on in the Pirates front office where seeing the bigger picture is concerned because like many fans, I’ve been fixated on the end of the Huntington era and the last couple years
I’m not about to exonerate Nutting. He’s a profiteer whose formula has been simple: put as little money in as possible and reap whatever dividends you can. And he has
But it’s clear to me that Huntington’s great failures came in scouting, drafting, lack of player development and some horrible trades
I do believe that the Pirates came to grips with emulating TB long ago and we’re on that pace even during the “glory years” ten years ago, but watched the plan get de-railed thanks to the aforementioned mistakes from the front office
This franchise will never spend like a major market team. They simply can’t
But they can build their minors, develop, bring them to MLB level under financial control…hopefully flourish…and trade the ultra successful players away when control is at or nearing an end for prospects who fit into the pipeline/re-load mentality
I like to think that we’re seeing the fruits of that now and with what is near coming to the big leagues. I don’t know if they’ll ever compete for a championship and that’s ok. Just being competitive or around .500 in the next couple years will be a marked improvement most of us can live with
Corn- And that shows a serious problem with a league that has good fans who are content with basically just getting by.
They may never win a championship in the next 50 years like the Giants did,45 years like the Dodgers did,or 108 like the Cubs did.
This league has allowed one small market team to win one in the last 31 years.
That has nothing to do with Nutting.
I am fine with Nutting talking about the disadvantage. But he should also talk more positive. We are doing everything we can to build a winner. I believe we have the right guy Cherington to lead us. I like the improvement I see in our farm system. I like the players we have on our mlb team. I think the rest of this decade and beyond are going to be exciting times for our fans. Blah blah blah. Maybe he did and those comments didn’t make it here. If not shame on him
He is awful at pr. I can’t think of the pirates losing a single player because they couldn’t afford them. With a contender they always seemed to fill every need. Nutting needs to speak up more and more often. Fans need to wise up as well.
Small market means not enough fans go to the games or buy the TV packages. The term small market should be changed to “low fan base participation markets.”
Have you thought about why that is? Of course you haven’t.
Fans tune out when they know their team doesnt have a chance against the largestkey teams that can spend three times as much om players because of revenue disparity in baseball.
Not everyone in this day and age is a diehard fan. There are too many other distractions for young people.
Not sure who that would apply to, maybe the A’s (13th largest MSA), Marlins (9th), and Rays (18th) who have persistently low attendance despite playing in large metro areas. Maybe the White Sox, 19th in attendance in the 3rd largest metro, but they share that with the Cubs. Pirates were 27th in 2022 attendance in the 27th largest MSA. Exactly what you would expect.
So the Pirates fans are fine with being 27th? Then don’t expect more. (I respect Pirates fans but if the area won’t strongly support a team, even if it means “pay it forward” then it won’t get better.)
BBT, you can’t squeeze blood from a turnip. The Pirates are 27th in attendance not because of lack of fan support, but because that’s where they slot in terms of metro area. Nutting is a tightwad and I don’t support his ownership, but size of market basically determines your attendance. A more forward-thinking owner would run at breakeven, build a winning team, and establish an enduring franchise. That owner might punch above his weight. Not too many of those. I am not a Pirates fan by the way.
Well written and I’m enjoying the dialogue. So Green Bay metro area would be smallest in NFL so they should be around last in attendance every year? Since we are talking about fan support.
I say that all the time. The calculus is simple,
1-If you are a fan of a small market team, you are unlikely to be .500 in the long-term.
2-That means you strive for .450-.475 every year and never make the playoffs, or cycle between .400-..575 and make the playoffs occasionally.
3-If the fans quit every time the team enters the tail-end of the cycle, the team is unlikely to be as good at the front end of the cycle.
They can’t be fair-weather fans and expect success.
Well, BBT, the devil is always in the details, and I enjoy our joust! The Packers are owned by their fans, over half a million of them own stock. When I worked for a publicly-traded company, employees would recycle paperclips because they thought it would help the shares they owned in the employee stock ownership plan! Being an owner changes your thinking. I’d say the Packers are an exception, not the norm.
Baseball is dying because younger people have no patience for that cycle all the time in the smaller markets and drop out.
None of the large market folks want to hear that.
Pirate fans supported the team well in the three year period that they had the second best record in all of baseball.
Pirate fans have never supported bad teams.
Its much easier to draw that number of fans when your market has more than 9 million people, than if you only have 1 million. Pittsburgh could have a higher impact on their market and still draw less than NY due to its limited size.
This should be a no-brainer. Trade him. He’s very good and not great. Get a little value why you can.
Contract length for Reynolds is the problem. Without PED’s, players typically don’t do well into their 30’s. A 34 year old Bryan Reynolds would likely not be very good at the MLB level. He should be good for the next 4 years.
Sorry, no respect for Bob Nutting. He is a card-carrying member of the Lucky Sperm Club. No respect for those achieving greatness through inherited wealth. Same goes for the A’s, Tigers, Orioles, Yankees, etc.
For Love — I’m presuming you mean the children of the 93 year old Orioles owner Peter Angelos (John and Louis).
Peter actually made his fortune the old fashioned way–Class action lawsuits against asbestos manufacturers. Peter was a blue collar kid of immigrants, and has advocated on blue collar workers behalf for his career.
Kids though,…luck sperm club. {I love that line, btw}
Rangers are pretty aggressive. Surprised they have not come up with a prospect offer Pirates would accept after a bit of squeezing. 1 of its higher touted pitchers and fill in the blank position player prospect as the couple players that matter to get it done.
Nutting is waiting for mlb to post their new organizational prospect rankings so he will know who to target
Lol! Prob the only org that takes any stock in the top 100!
Aggressive at spending money.
Man who received $180 million between the national tv deal and revenue sharing pots but spent less than $60 million on payroll trying to cry poor.
There’s $120 million plus 52% of local revenue going somewhere and it ain’t the Pirates or the stadium.
I like Reynolds, but I can see the Pirates not going over 6 years. As a prediction, I can see 6 years from now reading articles on mlbtraderumors on what team could take on Reynolds salary burden at age 34 as the production goes down if the Pirates sign him for 8.
Annual average does matter, though.
owners like him are the problem. not owners like Steve cohen
Sell the team. Move it, if that is what it takes to support a bona fide MLB franchise.
Knee jerk reaction that doesn’t begin to describe Pittsburgh. It was a baseball town 100 years ago and still is, but for God’s sake give fans more than the most beautiful park in MLB, a few fireworks nights and pierogi races
Pittsburgh isn’t the problem. Put a competitive team on the field—-competitive, not necessarily a winning team—and the fans will come out
As an owner, show some sense of history where a proud franchise is concerned and some civic responsibility in that PNC Park was built with taxpayer funds and deserves at the very least to see a competitive team on that field
That’s the problem. We rarely have seen or heard anything remotely responsible from this owner until just very recently
Your solution is like moving a disease to a different part of the body. The body itself was never the problem, pal
Cohen’s only problem is not being patient enough to build his team from the ground up. That has nothing to due with disparity or freeloading owners. But he may help the solution. Because of Cohen maybe owners will consider a floor in order to get a cap.
Cohens problem is that both small market and large market teams are united against a new enemy.
There’s at least 20 teams that would do 8/134 for Reynolds in a heartbeat.
20 awful ran teams
Hello Bob, please sell the team.
Sincerely,Everybody
Yes just sell the team and go away for ever
Not sure that’s so easy. The baseball team market seems a little depressed. Billionaires don’t appear to be tripping over themselves to purchase one.
Am I the only one that’s surprised that Nutting actually spoke publicly about wanting to sign a player. That’s kind of unprecedented.
Yeah. Not only that, he made the comments that the past couple seasons were “unacceptable” and that he is “demanding” a winning, competitive team
I’m thinking that someone in his inner circle pulled him aside prior to spring training and told him to at try to appear that he’s just as concerned about competitiveness as he is profits
Nutting was 100 percent good with the tank and rebuild. Now that Ben built the team and it’s ready to improve Bob is coming out to take his glory. State run media just supports his marketing bs. You traded away every good player and had a 40 million payroll. So apparently 60 wins was absolutely acceptable.
Example A of why a cap floor and ceiling should be in place
I agree that it would be beneficial for baseball over all, but it brings other problems with players where we would see far fewer 300m/10 year contracts.. not accounting for inflation of course. This would probably rise the average players salary though.
Pick your poison. I would like soft caps and floors similar to the luxury tax but with stiffer penalties where most of the penalties go to the players pension funds, charities and such rather than a sharing pool.
A cap would make no difference. It would have a to be so high the Dodgers could hit it. It’s a free market and their tv deal + National TV sharing would put them close to the ceiling already. The teams without the mafia deals would never get close to the ceiling and would still cry about fairness. The tax threshold is about as good as you can get.
A cap and floor NFL style works for me. Except you need TOTAL revenue sharing like the leagues that have it for it to be possible.
Players would actually gain more total because of the floor but the top guys will be limited.
Given reactions on this site, large markets would be up in arms losing their big advantage.
Its the only way to save the sport long term.
“The Pirates were at a similar stage of their rebuild in 2011-12, and were running out bottom-three payrolls in those seasons. As their window of contention opened, payroll more than doubled from 2012-15,”
And if you listen to the Pirates fans and it’s nothing but “the team doesn’t spend money.” Just more proof that Pittsburgh doesn’t deserve an MLB team and should move to another city.
Abject stupidity. You’re painting with a broad brush and pigeonholing the fan base here into your misguided narrative. This is the third time in one day that I’ve felt compelled to defend Pittsburgh fans from such a ridiculous commentary.
Look at literally any Pirates thread here from the past couple years and you’ll come to find there are many, many knowledgeable baseball fans who simply wish to see a competitive, if not winning, team in Pittsburgh. Beyond that simple, common desire, there are many theories and rationales about the myriad problems the Pirates have had in accomplishing thst goal
Your solution is like a doctor removing an ailing patient from intensive care, but failing to remove the problem
In Pittsburgh, it’s been ownership. Period
Moving the franchise won’t cure the problem. But do ramble on
Corn-He’s a Brewers fan.What does he know?That team has won one League title and it was in the other league!
I bet he is proud of that Yelich deal now.
“many, many knowledgeable baseball fans” There are probably many, many knowledgeable baseball fans in Fargo, North Dakota. Doesn’t mean that there’s enough to support an MLB team.
The team spends money on a winning team and the fans still don’t come out. For that third straight year of making the playoffs, the Pirates finished 15th in MLB in attendance.
I’ve heard all the excuses. The weather, small ballpark, blah, blah, blah. I haven’t heard a single argument about why attendance is so crappy that can’t be easily fixed by moving the team to a city that deserves and will support a team.
You can’t ask the players (the workers, if you want to term them that way) to all agree to accept the lowest salary that the team with the smallest budget is willing to pay. None of us would agree to that in our own jobs.
Nutting lied. Imagine that.
Since 2008 the Pirates have been bottom 5 in payroll about every year. How do you expect to be competitive and competent with those type of limited resources Mr. Nutting? Please take this team away from this guy
Nutting is trying to figure out how to keep Reynolds without actually having to pay him. I guess Steelers season tickets (in the nose bleed seats) isn’t enough
The “revenue disparity” is a self-fulfilling prophecy perpetuated by cheap owners that put a bad product on the field and then use it an excuse to act like it’s somebody else’s fault. It’s not the large teams that are the issue – it’s liers like Nutting and Castellani.
Another large market apologist that just wants to further an agenda.
Either that or you haven’t been following the baseball news this offseason.
I guess these owners are also liars (I spelled it right, by the way):
Milwaukee
Oakland
Detroit
Cleveland
Chicago White Sox
Miami
Minnesota
St. Louis
Arizona
..and thats just off the top of my head that have mentioned it just the last few months. I’m sure I missed a few.
How it a self fulfilling prophecy? The clubs with the largest TV contracts start off at such a significant advantage before any other revenue streams are added to the pot. The Dodgers get more than 300 million annually from their TV deal alone. Compare that to the Pirates who get less than $50 million a year from their local deals. It’s a huge problem.
So, basically the pirates want to pay 13.3 AAV and Reynolds wants 16 AAV and for 2 more years???? How do you NOT pay this to him? Plays a tough position very well and that boy can RAKE!Come to the Cards son, I’m sure we can find a spot for you and you’ll be adored.. signed every STL Fan! Do better PIRATES
I’m not buying that the Pirates are on the verge of playoff contention until they actually are contending.
The Pirates might need to move to either Montreal or Nashville because Pittsburgh is no longer a Baseball Town.
Just my opinion.
I responded to this kind of comment above. It’s literally a misguided, of not downright stupid take
Pittsburgh was a baseball town 100 years ago. It still is.
But no town is going to support an inferior product on the field or an aloof owner who despite middling attendance enjoys nice profits
Ownership here has felt no responsibility toward providing a competitive team despite playing in that taxpayer funded stadium. It has felt no obligation to maintaining the proud tradition of the franchise. It has done nothing to aid the numerous storefronts, restaurants and bars that set up around PNC Park with those very promises in mind
This town will support a winner. It always has, no matter the sport but Nutting will have to do better than a few fireworks nights and pierogi races.
The fans deserve better
I like to think things are changing. Time will tell
As a fan since the Forbes Field era and someone who still lives here and is a fan, that’s my opinion
But they have a beautiful ballpark.
Baseball needs a payroll minimum. Say $100M. If you don’t meet the minimum payroll, you lose draft position and picks.
@OhioDodger There are a ton of studies showing that payroll floors can’t work and do nothing to get ostensibly small market teams to try to contend. It just doesn’t work.
Besides, there’s always a doormat. There’s always the ugliest person at the party. So what? That’s life. It happens. Sometimes you lose 100 games. Sometimes your small market team is the Rays. Does it really matter if there’s a salary floor and as a result the Pirates win 67 instead of 62?
(Jake1972)They need a new owner
Why are we pretending that Reynolds has any power here whatsoever? He is with the Pirates for the next three years if they want him to be with them. And I seriously doubt he is foolish enough to tank or sit out because that will cost him a lot of money in 2026. Whether Reynolds sets a “deadline” or demands a trade or whatever else, the Pirates don’t HAVE to do anything other than pay him what an arbitrator says they have to pay him between now and whenever they trade him or 2026, whichever comes first.
And before anyone says the Pirates will look bad to future players, it’s not like Pittsburgh is the ideal destination for most free agents anyway.
A person that should be forced to relinquish his ownership. But alas…
Let’s Go Bucs!!!
Too much hate on Nutting. When needed he has spent 100 million. Similar markets maxed out at 120-130. Not going to destroy the guy because he didn’t go 20 million more. No reason to spend when you aren’t contending. I am completely on board with the 50 60 million payrolls as long as he spends when it matters and he does. Lucky to have a owner who is happy with keeping a team in Pittsburgh and it’s 20 some year old ball park. Sure it’s nice but where’s it’s battery or Wrigleyville? Where’s the parking garages? A new owner isn’t going to spend anymore than 120 million. So wouldn’t really make a difference. You would hate me because I would be similar to Nutting and Cherington.
Need to offer Reynolds 8 years 105 million. Just so you can say you offered him over 100 million. He might just take it. Or 7 years 95 with a 10 million option 5 mil buy out. If you don’t think he is worth 8 years and 100 million then trade him. 6 years doesn’t make sense.
Complete baloney
While Nutting did not broker the deal which yielded a wonderful ballpark built at taxpayer expense, he conducts business within those confines and happily reaps nice profits
One would think it’s incumbent upon any owner in such a situation to remember this, that there is some responsibility toward providing those fans, those taxpayers, with at the very least a competitive team
One would think there would be some desire to maintain the proud heritage of a franchise that admittedly came upon hard times after the Leyland era
One would think there is some knowledge of the civic pride of the black and yellow sports teams here
And one would think a businessman understands that the profit margins of local restaurants, bars, shops and hotels built around the magnificent park that was built with taxpayer money are directly tied to success on the ball field, even marginally.
Too much hate?
During his time here, Nutting has presented himself as an aloof, arrogant ass. His attitude toward fans has been akin to “Let them eat cake” and he has gladly substituted paying higher salaries for a few concert nights, fireworks shows and pierogi races
Nice that you are letting him off the hook here with such blather
He provided a competitive most years that he could. When he became the lead owner the team needed built, it was awful. He tried to or did field a competitive team from 2012 to 2019. Realized he had awful management and a another build was needed. Spending 100 million the non contend years wouldn’t have done anything other than get them lesser draft picks. I would have done the same except fired management sooner.
Dream, I’m not disagreeing about anything you say here
Yeah, he took ownership from the worst owner in franchise history
Yes, he allowed Huntington to undertake a TB approach to building the organization and then watched him destroy it
And yes, he was smart enough to hire a good, young GM who had a better grip on drafting, scouting and player development that again will put the organization within that TB mold
Unfortunately this latest PR campaign to make Nutting appear as a baseball guy who understands Pirates fans, the bond the city has with its fans and again, the responsibility he has to taxpayers and local business owners alike is rather comical
This is a guy who has carried himself for years as the “Mister Potter”
I’m glad you’re so willing to forget all of this or to believe he has been an owner in absentia, completely relying on his underlings as the years went by and a fan base was largely either destroyed or forgotten
Yes, it looks like they’ve turned the corner here. But it took extreme media pressure and a pissed off fan base to push the need for this re-branding of ownership, not much more
I don’t pay much attention to what he says. Don’t care about the tax payers and business owners. Best to avoid paying taxes and not have a business that is dependent on a small market baseball team. As baseball observer he provided the resources to contend when they should have. Excellent job of cutting payroll when they needed to rebuild.
You’ve illustrated the disconnect between you and I quite nicely. As a Pittsburgher, I guess it’s natural that I care about taxpayers and business owners who put their faith in false promises
There’s nothing about Nutting’s tactics I admire or respect and your applause is not only cavalier, it’s insulting.
I would tell you what I think of such a ridiculous opinion, but I’d have to open a new account. Again
Bold move trusting billionaire and politicians. I have no idea what they promised. I would have never listened or believed it. I don’t admire Nutting. Just said as far as baseball operations he has contended when he should have and rebuilt when he should have. Huntington failed him with development and he replaced him. That’s where my evaluation ends. I don’t know enough nor care to evaluate how he has been for local business and tax payers.
Buddy, the point is this: when I salute the tactics of billionaire owners or entitled, arrogant pro athletes, I’ll know it’s time to jump off the Clemente Bridge
Sorry. Guess that’s my Pittsburgh working class heritage talking
I am not saluting him. Just accepting the fact he is alright enough at running a baseball team. Seems content with pnc park and keeping the team in Pittsburgh. As a person and community leader I have no idea what he has promised and done or not done.
Corn-I know that you are not a Nutting fan,few are,but you have to admit that at least he runs it in.an organized businesslike manner .It was embarrassing when McClatchy gave away Aramis Ramirez because he needed the money.It sounds like something that Connie Mack did in the 1930’s.And the conglomerate before him was terrible,There have been no whispers of the team leaving Pittsburgh.I know that it damning with faint praise,but at least he has given the franchise stability.
That trade was disgusting. At least Bob is capable of having a budget and business plan. He never gave away or lost a player because he couldn’t afford them. Smart to lock up Marte McCutchen Polanco Harrison. Guy needed to pay to keep Liriano Nova Cervelli and did. Smart owner. I follow Pittsburgh Cleveland Tampa Atlanta and Houston the closest because I think they are the smartest run teams.
If you’re talking about Apple or Amazon, I’m in agreement where the business sense is concerned
But again, you miss the point and perhaps it’s a Pittsburgh or “working man town” kind of thing you can’t quite grasp
There’s a general love Pittsburghers have for their sports teams and heroes that is found in few places.
To alienate those fan bases takes some doing and perhaps the reasons why need to be explored where the Pirates are concerned
Here on this story’s threads, we have a number of misguided fools who suggest moving the team. In reality, your business genius threw crumbs to Pirates fans and expected their support
I won’t mention the PNC Park deal because somehow, you must hail from somewhere where such things are common and carry no responsibility for ownership.
But to put field cast offs and then castigate fans lack of support won’t be forgotten.
Ticket prices are high. It costs $20 to park the car, $5 for a bottle of water and $10 for a beer. And in this town, all you’re giving fans is a beautiful ballpark and some guys dressed like pierogies racing in the outfield.
Like I said, this style of business acumen may win praise in faceless, impersonal business ventures, but the genius Nutting has continually forgotten the fan
Bold move?
It’s the business world in a nutshell.
Show me any stadium that’s been built with taxpayer funds and I’ll be glad to throw back the promises owners made to fans
Then we’ll look at the blueprints to see the establishment of a fan zone around the new ballpark is always a plus for the city and much ballyhooed by ownership and politicians alike
Nothing bold about it. It’s almost assumed
No, Nutting wasn’t the guy who pushed for a new stadium but “the promises” are inferred nonetheless
And Nutting didn’t draw up the plans for Federal Street and nearby environs, but it was a good faith move that inspired development
Come to the Federal Street corridor when the Pirates are winning. Or even a fireworks night
Then come back on a night when they’re 30 games out, a much more common scene
Then get back to me about business genius and civic responsibility
From 2003 to 2010 1.6 to 1.8 million fans attending games to watch awful teams. 2013 to 2016 2.5 million showed up to watch great teams. 2018 2019 1.5 million showed up to watch decent teams. If I was the owner I would see no incentive to spend money to field a decent team that no more people will pay to see vs a awful team. I would pocket as much money as I could and try to rebuild my farm so I can get great teams that would get my attendance back in the 2 millions. Spending any money to try and field a 500 team would just be throwing money away. The fans have spoken and they want a great team or they aren’t buying tickets.
Pittsburgh fans deserve 50 million payrolls and josh van meters.
Brian Reynolds is a 3-4 WAR corner OFer (despite his appearances in CF).
The write up is limp. When was the 6/80m offer intended to start… 2023? 2024?
If it’s 2023 the Pirates are guaranteeing three arb years and buying three FA years for 6/80m. Reynolds’ problem is that he’ll be 31 his first FA season, in 2026, well into a player’s decline phase, on average.
He’s making $6.75m in 2023. Figure with typical play he’ll make $9m in 2024 and $12m in 2025. Round it to $27m for those three years, total, and the Pirates are trying to buy Reynolds’ first three FA years, at ages 31 to 33, for $53m, about $18m apiece. Reynolds is good enough that you can hope he’ll be worth a roster spot through age 33, though he’s not good enough that you have any expectation he’ll be a star at that point. It’s not a generous offer but it’s not absurd, either.
Meanwhile, assuming he’s still getting $27m for 2023-2025, Reynolds wants Pittsburgh to commit to his first 5 FA years for $107m total, or an average of $21.4 million per year, during which time he’ll be 31 to 35 years old. That’s too much money for a player who may well be a backup at best those last two years. Reynolds has only had one genuine AS-caliber season. He probably won’t have another.
If he was 24 rather than 28 in 2023, then 8/134m would be a bargain for the Pirates. As it is the Pirates are already getting the heart of his career through the end of 2025, and if they think their window is going to be some time from 2026 through 2030 then committing to Reynolds’ decline, the decline of a good, not great corner guy for those years at $21.4m each year, is a terrible idea.
Quote, Nutting: “If there’s a way we can bridge the gap, we’re working hard to do that.”
Yep, it’s called: give Reynolds his money, you greedy cheapskate!
With a projected market value of $156.5M/8 years, Reynolds’ own demand still lies $22,5M below that.
Nutting is nothing but a lying scumbag when he suddenly feigns understanding of Reynolds’ situation.
He won’t be on the market for another 3 seasons. He can take 100 million now or hope he is still as healthy and good when he is 31
Dream- I think six years for $105M is fair.He is 28 this year so that would take him to his age 35 season as he is playing under contract this season.
He may want to get the mega contract at 31,or he may be conservative enough to know that $105 M is way more than chump change.
The Pirates are smart in waiting to see how this season unfolds as a team,and whether Bae,Suwinski,Mitchell,and,yes,even Cruz,develop into fielders and hitters
6 80 what the pirates offered is about as high as I would go. 8 105 would be fine. 7 95. They already have him for 3 30 some. So 70 million for his age 31 32 33 seasons isn’t a bargain. Rather trade him for prospects.
I think I was starting in 2024 to buy out his two arbitration years for $30 M total which is what he would get, then four years at $18.75 M per year.That is assuming that they need him to compete,as the other outfielders would not progress sufficiently to not need him.
It will be an interesting year to see how much Suwinski and Mitchell progress as Jack raked in AA last year and Cal did in AAA.Also,will Bae develop into a good centerfielder,and strong leadoff man?Will Cruz need to move to right field?Stay tuned.
Cruz is the only one who has a strong chance to be anything. They don’t have a real answer at ss so they are going to give him every chance. Jack has the power but needs much improvement with contact. CSN Bae Mitchell Marcano Swag all seem lucky to be league average guys. Maybe someone becomes better. If csn can somehow change launch angle. Same with Bae. I don’t see them doing it at this point. Marcano has the contact skills. Peguero has a bat you dream about but it hasn’t achieved it’s potential. If it does move him into the outfield. His throwing at ss is worse than cruz. Might have to draft the lsu kid. It’s sad there was 3 teams worse than the pirates. Would much rather have Jones than Johnson.
Your reply seems to me to imply that you don’t hold a lot of faith in this tier of prospects.Maybe an average team based on these players.Am I reading too much into it?
Both. I don’t have much faith in these prospects. Would you trade 2 kids you think could be special for Adam Frazier? I wouldn’t trade any. Definitely worth trading Frazier. SD is one of the better teams to try and out develop. Just look at what Cleveland and Seattle got from them. Can Pittsburgh do the same? We will see. They have shown something with pitching development. Can’t say the same with hitting. Only way to get surefire elite talent is with your 1st round pick or by trading elite talent. It’s all a crap shoot but much more so after that. Teams don’t part with elite prospects often. Pirates didn’t have any elite players that would bring back elite talent anyways. They did well with their trades.
Rebuild has been as good ask you could ask. They traded everyone they could have and should have and got solid returns. Holmes was a miss though. Shouldn’t have given up on him so soon but if they can’t fix him he has no value for them. They need to develop more elite prospects but the system has excellent depth. I’d give them another 2 years and if it isn’t improved more they will need another gm. Rodriguez Contreras have been excellent examples for the player development staff. A small market team needs to be one of the 5 or 10 best at development though. They have improved but still a ways to go.
A sound and sensible reply.
As usual.
Thanks.
Boo hoo. Bob Nutting is worth over $1B. If he doesn’t want to spend money on the Pittsburgh Pirates that’s fine. Then SELL the team. He won’t sell because he’s making money.
Pretty sure the next owner will want to make money too. Maybe they take 10 or 20 million less but that’s not significant enough to make a real difference. Selling the team wouldn’t help unless Cohen becomes a Pirates fan.
What does his personal net worth have to do with running the Pirates business? One is not directly tied to the other. The only personally money thing Nutting could do is not take a salary or profit sharing money from the team. Are the Pirates cutting Nutting $40 million in check each year that he could forgo to get the clubs payroll over $100 million. I don’t know but I doubt it.
Cohen isn’t using personal funds to subsidize the Mets payroll. He is signing off on business expenses. Maybe they have the revenue to cover it all, maybe he’s allowing them to use every projected cent of profits to player salary or he may be allowing them to operate in debt believing in a longer term ROI. We don’t know since it’s a private business. But on an immediate annual bases Cohen isn’t using any personal money. Now if the team is in debt, at some point in the future. he may have to use personal money to pay down or eliminate it. Most likely he’s is banking on a much better TV deal and is making the investments now to hopefully drive the demand for that. Who knows how that will work now with the Bally Sports mess. If things don’t go as planned he’ll sell the team and use the profit from the increase in the teams value to pay off the debt, which again could be part of that longer term ROI plan. Cohen may even be using one of his other businesses as the financial institution lending money to the Mets if they are operating with a negative balance sheet. That institution makes money off the interest and so he’d still be making money off that business, however I’d hope that sort of collusion would be illegal.
It’s possible for both to be true. The revenue system in baseball is completely screwed up and Bob Nutting is cheap. He doesn’t want to invest much in the MLB roster until there’s a chance to be competitive, and unlike the teams with greater cash flow, that works in cycles for lower revenue clubs.
The root of a lot of it is in local TV money. Id love to see local TV money split evenly… if the Pirates play in Los Angeles, the local revenues for those games are split evenly between both teams because there’s no game without both teams. But it’ll never happen because just like Nutting wants to make a profit on his investment, so do the owners of higher revenue teams. It’d be better for the game, but not better for markets like NY, LA, Chicago, and Boston that call the shots.
Baseball is a broken spo4t financially, but there are serious problems on both ends of the spectrum, not just the lower end.
There is a real income gap between teams like the dodgers and yankees and teams like the pirates and reds.
At the same time nobody is ever going to shed a single tear for nutting because his payroll is so low. If he had a payroll between 100-140m then people might take him seriously. As of now everyone thinks he is just pocketing millions, which is true.
Let’s say all the small market teams start spending more money. That doesn’t mean they will be able to compete year in and year out because the big market teams will just out bid them for the better players. The Yankees of the world would just have to spend even more. All it would do is raise the amount players get.
The players will never accept a salary cap. So don’t bother with trying to get that done.
The one thing that mlb can do to shrink the gap between markets is to equally share the local tv revenue. Let the teams keep their Merch sales and tickets revenues and what not. Teams should be awarded for having a product fans are willing to spend on.
The major issue with sharing tv revenue is the value of each franchise. Part of the reason big market teams are worth so much money is the fact that they make so much money. Sharing local tv revenue would reduce the amount of money those clubs bring in. They still should be worth more than small market teams since they have a larger potential fans base to pool from. So things like ticket prices, attendance and merchandise sales etc should still help hold their value higher than small markets.
Right now there is a lot of local tv deals in jeopardy. So this could be a real opportunity to get something like this done.
If they do something like this then they would need to put a min salary for each team that must be spent over a certain number of years. Say 150m or whatever the sharing of tv revenue would warrant.
There is no perfect solution unless they go to 100% revenue sharing which the isn’t likely.
The big market teams have to give up more of the revenue they create or there is will continue to be a big income gap.
You don’t need a cap you just need more equal economic balance between teams. Let teams spend what they want, just make the income available to each team closer to equal. Then force the teams to spend a certain amount on players.
Couple things. Their $60 million payroll is only reflective of their players with MLB contracts. Doesn’t include the minors, scouts, etc.
The other thing is to be smarter with the payroll you do have. Ji-Man Choi and Rich Hill aren’t going to be part of the future and you blew over $10 million of the $60 million. Maybe they can mentor a bit for a few months, but mentoring is for the coaching staff to help with.
Lastly, did Jurickson Profar overestimate his mediocrity and blow millions by opting out of his contract?
This team should be sold to new owners immediately
Which new owners do you suggest buy the team?
Unless Nutting is open to selling them, nothing will happen
Paul- I really have to wonder whether this team is worth anywhere near $1.32B.Some outlet May think so,but getting it if he ever sells it is another thing.
Wasn’t it just last year that the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette did an in-depth piece with internal documents and emails showing that the Pirates tied team payroll to ticket sales and related activities, such as concessions, finding that all TV and MLB revenue sharing was kept as profits for Nutting? Of course he wants a bigger slice of other teams’ revenues. It goes straight to his bank account.
Thank you. I’m glad someone else read it that fascinating piece. It ripped the shroud over the facade regarding team ownership
Let’s review
Ticket sales/gate receipts/merch sales alone—-alone—are enough to fund the MLB level team salaries and baseball ops
Those alone
Add in MLB TV revenue sharing, local TV revenue and various ancillary streams that all have to only fund minor league salaries, ops and draft pick bonuses
I continue to be at a loss as to how some feel sympathy for this owner—for any owner. I’ll grant that no small market owner can spend on a par with major markets, but to be completely dismal in terms of competitiveness for a protracted period is outrageous
And it should be noted that profits are largely even greater than speculated, as MLB refuses to open its books
Like I said, a fascinating read that removes any doubts about huge ownership profits
Reynolds is arbitration controlled for 2024 and 2025, so give him 10 million per year for those two years. Then tack on 20 million per year for 2026 through 2030. That would be a five year addition at 100 million for a total contract including arb years of seven years and 120 million.
And if you want count 2023 at 6.75 million, then it would be 8 years at 126.75 million.
But in my proposal, they are really only adding 2026 through 2030 at 100 million, or five years at 20 million per year.
Or just go 3 years of arbitration snd then QO him
Nutting – “It’s the single biggest issue facing the Pittsburgh Pirates. Competitive disparity, revenue disparity and payroll disparity are all real challenges.”
The lack of self-awareness is stunning. The Pirates competitive disparity, revenue disparity, and payroll disparity all must be the MLBPA’s fault. None of these three things could possibly be Nutting’s doing or within his power to fix.
They are indeed issues but the Pirates are not necessarily the best example of it. That seems lost on all the large market geniuses here who think they know how to run a small market team.
Right, should they hire you then? Get a grip.
Keep him for the entire 2023 season and see if he is just very good or great. At $6.75 mil, this guy is a steal. Figure it out next off season based on his 2023. No rush. The Bucs own this guy, like it or not, thru 2025 season. Don’t tell me he can’t be traded after 2023 season if he is solid again. He’ll bring back plenty next year. If not, we get to keep him in 2024 for about $10 mil and 2025 for about $15 mil. Still excellent value.
I actually think the vibe you’re getting now from yesterday’s telecast and the comments of reporters/columnists there in Bradenton is that they’re going to work something out.
Agree that he’s an excellent value and it’s really a no-lose scenario. But unless I see something drastically different, he’s the only guy in that line up who is consistent hitter. Rare you’re going to strike him out with pitches out of the zone
And I think he’s a very good player and not great. Surrounded by cast offs and minor leaguers, his skill set looked that much greater. Hopefully he will have some company as a run producer this year
Bottom line: the Pirates can enjoy Reynolds’ skill set for the next three years for roughly $30 mil. Do they want him for 5 more years beyond those 3 control years at a cost of $70 to $90 mil? I don’t think we know yet, but I suspect that his best 3 years of his career will be his age 28-30 seasons and those belong to our Bucs. I feel like it’s a no-brainer to keep him thru trade deadline of 2025.
MLB blocked Mark Cuban from buying the Pirates. MLB needs its anti-trust stripped away.
Cuban himself said he was glad he couldn’t buy an mlb team and wouldn’t spend money much different if he owned the pirates since baseball is broken
That’s simply not true
The Pittsburgh Post Gazette did a nice, lengthy interview with Cuban a couple summers ago
Not only did he make it clear that he had never held any interest in buying the Pirates, he also noted that the current owner would be insane to sell given the amount of profit he was making thanks to MLB’s financial platform
This is a great example of a cheap owner. He doesn’t give a damn about success…the next CBA should have a payroll floor!!!!
Everyone wants a floor except for the players since they would then accept a cap
It’s interesting that in the most recent article in The Athletic about negotiations between the MLBPA and the owners, it was Bob Nutting who was quoted the most from the owners’ side:
“There’s no question the CBA contained several things that were not good for the Pirates and very few things that were excellent for us,” Pirates owner Bob Nutting told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. “You also have to remember there was no baseball going on. We had a real risk of losing the season.”
“We simply can’t be here in the next cycle,” Nutting continued. “We’ve got to see fundamental change in the economic structure of the game. I believe that we’re positioned to do it — not this year or next year but over the longer-term cycle.”
Pittsburgh has a larger TV market than San Diego, and San Diego has the third- or fourth-largest payroll in the sport.
One day later the owner of the 7th smallest market team shows us that Nutting is a liar.
Nutting just consistently pockets tens of millions of profit every season and he doesn’t like that the current CBA makes it obvious.
Anathema to most on here, I’m a Socialist. However, when capitalism is done well, it can work in some industries, I love what Cohen is doing. When you get a clown like Nutting running and organisation, players and the sport both lose.
Pirates are being offered a really good deal by Reynolds, even if they don’t negotiate a dollar off of it. Top players make in the $30s & they get him for under $17? Standing still on their ridiculous offer simply says “We don’t want to pay for him, no matter how good a deal we get. We’d rather lose, get revenue sharing, and pocket the money.”
Here’s my thing about Reynolds: he’s a good player, not great. He’s really a corner outfielder, not center. He’s the toughest out and has the best plate discipline of anyone in the lineup, a lineup which often times could only be called grotesque last year
I don’t believe he should bring the same kind of prospects as Soto did in a trade. I also hope Pirates front office will stick to their guns about what they want in return
I guess the thing for me is that if he was a middle infielder or catcher, I’d say yes, deal him. But amazingly, this entire rebuild of the Pirates have only yielded guys who have shown little in their time in the majors
Suwinski. Mitchell. Andujar. Swaggerty. (And I am forgetting some kids)
No one has shown they can fill that giant hole.
So if the goal really is to compete this year, signing him makes one helluva lot of sense
Sorry. I meant that we have really seen nothing in the way of capable outfielders coming up or on the horizon
Corn-Your last statement makes absolutely no sense.
He is signed for this year.
And they are not competing for anything this year except hopefully to avoid a lost place finish and win 70 games.
Mendoza, you know I agree with you
I believe they “tanked” the last couple years, at least, or played with the idea that 100+ losses were inevitable. Why fight it?
You’ll forgive me for embracing the ownership idea of “competing”. It simply means perhaps ten more wins. Maybe it means there’s no VanMeter batting 4th or pitching far too often in blow out games.
Whether in the papers or via broadcast interviews, the word “competing” keeps getting bandied about. Even the grand poobah Nutting is saying nothing else will be acceptable.
They have very few bonafide outfielders on this roster. Cutch can’t do it anymore. And no one else has shown they are ready for the gig
That’s all I was saying
Then it bums me out that knowledgeable fans,and Dream May have the same outlook,that this tier of rebuild may only achieve mediocrity.
I wanted 71 wins last year,as they had gone from 51 equivalent in 2020 to 61.I am hoping for 72 this year,and a winning season in 2024.
I am running out of years along with a few other posters so I would like at least to see a three year period again like 2013-2015.
Hope springs eternal,but to a limited degree.
Locally, they keep pounding the idea that only 7-8 guys were on the Pirates opening day roster last year
Hilarious
It’s largely the same team with a few additions.
We both know that there were so many holes last year that only some miracle will have this team contending anytime soon
Literally speaking, there was no one to get excited over last season. I had to laugh on Saturday. It was only the first exhibition game but it was more of the same:
-lots of strikeouts
-a misplay in the OF by Joe
-and Bednar hangs two pitches that get lit up for homers
Among other gems
“Competing” to me at least means not being a laughing stock where former players like Eckersley and Kruk call your players amateurs
But “contending?”
Hard to see that happening soon
I have to apologize.
I had forgotten that you had entered the witness protection program.
I am tired,I am old,and I really did have one of my best friends in high school named Mark who I called “Dude”.
I sometimes forget but it is always nice to have discourse with my slightly younger friend.
Doubt you’re seeing these exhibition games where you are but I’m struck by two things so far: plate discipline is still an issue and pitchers still have an unbreakable love affair with dead red
But there’s no denying that they have a lot of young, athletic guys here and that’s true of guys on the cusp of arrival.
You just wonder if they have the development gurus to make it all click
I am not.
You are my eyes,but I trust them implicitly.
Even old men are young men at this time of year.
Top players on large market teams make in the 30s. Not elsewhere because they can’t afford them.
Too poor to pay attention to anything outside the big city?
I am with the teams maybe 85-90 percentage of the time. However, reading the details of the deal (8 years and 134) made me really turn against the Pirates. He makes 6.75 million this year and should end up around perhaps 9 and 12 or maybe say 10 and 14 million the next 2 years perhaps. In any situation, that’s no worse than 5 years and 110 for his free agent years and possibly is 5/105. I think that a 21-22 MM aav is perfectly reasonable in this market. I personally think that Arod’s deal in the early 2000s was what a 10 WAR guy should make, and inflation adjustments should apply. Let’s say a 10 WAR players gets in the 30-32 million range (I don’t want to calculate today’s value since the money is paid out over the course of several years) and we can agree that’s fair. Even in that situation, Reynolds is worth about 25 million per free agent season in the current market. Contract inflation may make it a great deal for the Pirates. Texas should really trade for him and sign him to this deal. Another thing that bothers me is that they could have negotiated further and said we will offer 7 years and 110 or whatever. Even without Reynolds budging, this is quite a good deal for any team. This does seem like a franchise player discount. I would be with the Pirates if this guy were being fool and said keep the years the same at 6 and give me 134 million, It’s much more reasonable to at least start with his figure over 8 years and negotiate down. I am not trying to cut down on small market teams, but when some teams are willing to even overpay a guy like Wander Franco or Fernando Tatis jr. with 2 or 3 minimum wage seasons and 3 arb season this early on, the Pirates should be willing to understand this is a below-market deal and that they would probably even increase his trade value here by extending him this cheaply. Decline does happen, but good plate discipline and larger sample sizes decrease the risk of “long-term deals.”
Tell that last statement to the Brewers and ask them about Yelich.
Reynolds is signed for this year.After that,six years for $105M is fair.
He is losing his best chance at a mega contract,but getting a guaranteed very high amount for life.
If he is still playing well at 35,he will still get a three year $50M deal like McCutcheon got.
The Pirates have a year to figure out whether and how much they will need him.
Then he will fit their model of trading with one or two years before free agency.Or they can choose to sign him then if they need him to be able to compete.
No one has asked the obvious question.
Why did John Henry sell the Marlins and buy the Red Sox?
Anyone who has dealt with this fouled up system knows the answer. Do you?
Are you predicating the answer upon how MLB allowed Loria to destroy the Montreal Expos because he didn’t get a new stadium and manufactured a scenario in which Henry was handed the Red Sox, Loria the Marlins and MLB, the Expos?
Yeah, MLB took care of its own and still does. It’s a billionaires club and we ain’t in it
This guy’s got more conspiracy theories than the “experts” on ‘Ancient Aliens’
I’m just wondering why it was “the obvious question” and how it all fits in here
I guess the Reds belong everywhere
Steve- The best way to get us to shut up is for you to get your friend to give $100M each to the Reds and Pirates as a tax deduction and to be spent on player salaries.Thanking you in advance.
Just those two teams? Why not every team?
Translation; he’s CHEAP! Lol
Because we don’t want to be greedy,and it would give an unfair monetary advantage to the other 27 teams too.
Mendoza, Dream, TheMan and anyone else….I can’t speak for you guys, but I am done whining about Nutting or talking about finances. I’m regurgitating the same old spiel repeatedly and really, it’s as pointless now as it ever has been
The season’s here
Much better and “healthier” to just talk baseball
Appreciate your insights and the comments of all of this board. But I’m going to avoid any topic that doesn’t concern on field play like the plague
Live long and prosper, friends
Let’s all hope that we at least have a team that shows real progress this year.
Go Buccos.
Ya know. It’s only two exhibition games on TV so far but I will say this: they have an awful lot of young, athletic talent. In itself, that’s something we haven’t seen in a long time
Whether they pan out in the majors is anyone’s guess. Have to give them credit—they’ve really stockpiled
The payroll number is incorrect, it doesn’t factor in Choi’s arbitration or filling out of the roster. The Payroll projects to be around $75 million depending on who makes the team.
Corn-Glad to hear you say that.
That is what I had sensed too.Hopefully they have the coaches to get the talent out of them.That was the main failing of NH.
But I do not like to put too many hopes on the Pirates anymore.Once,burned,twice shy.