The Rangers have reached out to the Pirates about a potential Andrew McCutchen trade, tweets Jon Morosi of MLB.com, but the Bucs aren’t open to such scenarios at this time. As Morosi observes, the Rangers have a deep lineup but have received poor production from the designated hitter spot in the order. The veteran McCutchen, hitting .271/.394/.431 with nine homers and nine steals on the season, would clearly represent a boost.
That said, there are plenty of reasons to be skeptical of a potential McCutchen trade coming together. Jason Mackey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette wrote at the time of McCutchen’s reunion in with the Pirates that the franchise icon returned to Pittsburgh with the intent of finishing out his career there; the Pirates didn’t make the signing with the intent of flipping him at the deadline, and Mackey reported in January that the two parties even discussed McCutchen’s desire to stay put in Pittsburgh while negotiating the deal. McCutchen told Mackey exactly one month ago that he wants to win in Pittsburgh and is not interest in playing elsewhere. “I don’t want to continue my career on another team,” McCutchen said on May 26.
It’s certainly possible that if the Pirates are buried in the standings as the deadline looms, McCutchen could have a change of heart and inform the front office he’d like to be moved to a contender. That seems unlikely based on his recent comments, however. And, even after their recent freefall, the Pirates are only five and a half games back in a dismal NL Central division.
That relative proximity to contending in the division matters, too. It was barely more than a week ago that Pirates president Travis Williams publicly indicated that the team’s hope was to return to the postseason as soon as this year. If the Bucs find themselves with a shot at doing so in the run-up to the trade deadline, Williams noted that GM Ben Cherington would have ownership support to add pieces, even if it meant further boosting the payroll. The Pirates weren’t quite so far into their staggering 1-12 swoon at that point, but again, the feeble context of their division could yet leave them with a realistic chance at a playoff berth — particularly with more than a month until the deadline.
All of that context notwithstanding, it’s at least of some note that the Rangers are perusing the market for potential upgrades. Interest in McCutchen is only logical for them. He’s an accomplished veteran hitter who’s well liked and who has played under current skipper Bruce Bochy. It stands to reason that Bochy enjoyed having McCutchen in the lineup and in the clubhouse during the outfielder’s brief time with the Giants.
Further, as Morosi rightly points out, the Rangers simply haven’t gotten much out of the DH spot in the lineup this year. Texas designated hitters are batting .223/.313/.377 on the season. The resulting 94 wRC+ ranks 19th in the Majors. That production (or lack thereof) has come from a combination of 10 players. Robbie Grossman leads the Rangers with 88 plate appearances as their DH, and he’s hit extremely well in that time. Grossman, though, is also seeing regular time in the outfield. The Rangers have cycled him, Brad Miller, Mitch Garver, Ezequiel Duran, Corey Seager, Jonah Heim, Adolis Garcia, Josh H. Smith and Sam Huff through the DH spot this year, ostensibly using it more as a means of affording occasional rest to regulars rather than dedicating one slugger to the position.
Acquiring any other full-time DH would mark a departure from that strategy. McCutchen is just one of several options to fill that role — seemingly not even a likely one — and since it’s the DH spot in question, the position of a potential trade target could be largely immaterial.
Broadly speaking, it’s still early in the summer for trades of significance to come together. Modern front offices tend to wait until the final few days before the deadline to act with much aggression, and the expansion of the playoff field seems like it’ll only further fuel that trait. Only three teams in baseball currently find themselves facing a deficit of nine games or greater in the postseason hunt: the Royals, A’s and Rockies. And while those teams surely know the direction they’ll take at the deadline, even they might prefer to wait and see if there are more motivated buyers at the deadline. Many teams — the Pirates included — are currently on the fence about their deadline trajectory but might be more willing to part with young talent closer to Aug. 1.
As long as the Cardinals are around, the Pirates won’t be “buried” in the standings.
Nah nah nah nah nah
That’s not happening
McCutchen is not getting traded on his pirates farewell tour… nah…
Trade Cutch, and then bring him back for a true goodbye tour next year
the guy obviously ain’t done yet
You can’t get sentimental when running a team. If the Bucs can get anything for the future in return, trade Cutch.
Cutch approached Pirates owner about returning this year, it would be hard pressed to trade him
Pirates bats have slumped most of the past 2 months. Cards could easily pass them. Pirates look like sellers.
I agree. they’ve fallen off a cliff
I think if Cruz doesn’t break his ankle, they’d still be contending
vince Velasquez was looking like a potential All-star before Tommy John
some tough breaks injury-wise , but think they have a core that can put it all together next season with Cruz, Davis, Keller becoming MLB staples.
issue is, if they put a fork in it this season, they really don’t have any vet assets to trade off.
Cutch and Santana are both guys who could fetch a lotto ticket .. but wouldn’t mind both coming back again after in ’24
The Pirates have done what the ‘experts’ thought the Orioles would do. Start hot, then crash and burn.
Right now there isn’t many sellers and many of them sold last year so not a ton to sell. Rich Hill has been good. Any year a team would want him as 5th starter but this year he would start a few playoff games for some teams. He should get more than he should. Santana has been fantastic at 1b. But his bat is just average. Would need a bidding war between 2 teams that need a 1b to get anything interesting. If Cutch is willing he would get something interesting. Not top 100 guys more than loto. Maybe someone offers enough on a non rental. I love seeing fans cry so rooting for Bednar trade. Would be heck of a return.
Velazquez should have been the death blow but it’s the bats. Cruz would help but is only 1 man.
Pirates aren’t this bad on paper. I hope they don’t get hot. If they buy who’s to say they don’t slump again? Besides April they have only been good for a little strech in early June.
Watching this team game in and game out, I think you’re either overly optimistic about what they could have done with Cruz or have a keen sense about how pathetic the NL Central is, Goku
They do have a core here, though. Unless there is some real help on the farm that can make drastic strides, it’s hard to see them competing seriously for a couple years
I certainly lean more towards NL Central being weak, to clarify.
I’m looking at vince and cruz combining for around 5 more wins which would put them at 40-37
Not happening.
pirates will unload any contract ever
thank you for your professional opinion Nostradamus
My name is Retired but thanks.
I wasn’t responding to you, retired
Sorry my bad……
no apologies necessary
you must have a short memory
they’ve traded Cutch once before
They traded Cutch before to dump his contract
Cutch is a good dude and I wish him well. Miss him on the Yanks. Consummate professional
He’s my favorite player to root for.
he really is awesome guy
This would be a surefire way to piss off Pirates fans, and not much else. He’s not going to command a high level prospect, why wouldn’t they just let him play and be the clubhouse leader for the run at the playoffs?
*command a high level prospect back in a trade
I agree this would not make Pirates fans happy. But Texas is apparently in dire straights at DH and if they offer some good prospects to a rebuilding team, it might at least get the Pirates attention.I know McCutcheon is beloved in Pittsburgh but he’ll be 37 by the end of the season. I know the FO, the players and the fans are enamored with him, but unfortunately sometimes loyalty only goes one way.
Problem with your logic is that it was Cutch who called the Pirates owner of his own volition and talked about his desire to come home. If that’s all a smoke screen and his words about his wife and kids living here are all just hooey, he should be a poker player
best of both worlds .. trade him at deadline for an asset .. bring him back again next year.
seriously tho.. this might explain the 1 year pact , when he surely could’ve gotten 2
he didn’t ask for 2 years
Corn- It is not a smokescreen but keep in mind he waited three months to do so after he was not offered a large contract on the open market.
I am not dissing him as most of us would have done the same thing.
BC had already signed Joe in the meantime which may not have been necessary if he knew that he had McCutcheon.
I think that he knew that he wanted to do this but maybe next year or the year after.
Not true. Texas has Mitch Garver at DH and is happy to give DH at bats to Zeke Duran, as well. They also have a solid super utility in Josh Smith who can give guys half days off in the field when they need it. They are not in “dire straights” at all for a DH. Probably just looking for depth and character if the prospect cost is nominal, like a young A-ball lottery ticket.
@Troh you re absolutely right. They are already pressed to get all of their talented bats in the lineup. They are in anything but dire straights as it pertains to DH.
If Texas has so much offensive depth why are they calling about Cutch?
According to the article the Rangers have tried ten guys at DH and only Grossman has panned out. It also said their DH’s collectively are hitting .233/.313 and .377. So maybe not dire straights but they are looking from outside the organization who could do better. That’s what the article said and it’s all I have to go on.
It would also guarantee that Cutch would never return to Pittsburgh in a Pirate uniform since he’s scheduled to be a free agent after this season
Trading him away would be an unpopular decision for all parties involved
The Pirates have been pretty bad the last week or two and their schedule is going to get harder coming into and after the all star game. Padres Brewers, Dodgers, Dbacks and then the Giants after the break. I doubt they have what it takes for a playoff run. It was a good run and story to start the season tho
Playoffs look like a fantasy right now. Cutch can leave for 2 months and come back to Pittsburgh next year. He doesn’t look like he is retiring. If he wants to chase a ring and get his Pirates a prospect cool. He will be back in Pittsburgh for 2024. Fans can survive 2 months without after not having him for 5 years.
He doesn’t want to leave though. Only way Cutch gets traded is if he asks for it, because if he gets traded without his permission, there’s no way he resigns with the Pirates. They put agreed to a tentative NTC when he signed. Even if it’s not offical, that would be complete betrayl to go back on your word on an agreement of that magnitude.
Dream, I’m channeling Jim Mora here, but….playoffs?
Look, I know you don’t sit and watch any one team in particular at length, but none of this was a surprise even three weeks ago
If your caveat is the poor division they’re in, ok. But look at the box scores, even during the opening run
I kept asking where the hits and runs were going to come from once the pitching cooled down and a couple of guys—like Joe— cooled off
Crickets
The euphoria over that start seemed to overwhelm logic
Oviedo and Ortiz proved this weekend what was evident even then; pitching can’t do it alone
None of this is a surprise
Cutch has to approve any trade which is unlikely considering it was his idea to contact Nutting that brought him back last winter
You can speculate all you want, Dream, but Cutch isn’t going anywhere
Did I say trade him without his approval? Or that he was going to be traded? Just said if it happens who cares about the fans think. They wanted to keep him and not get Reynolds. Fans aren’t qualified.
“ fans aren’t qualified “
That would include you, too
I’m over qualified. Take notes on everything I say so you can come back and praise me. And not a fan. Keep cutch or trade him I don’t care. Hopefully trade him so I can grade it. I like Tampa Pittsburgh best because their business model is most similar to mine. I don’t cheer them on or anything.
I don’t praise arrogant people
You should go back to muting me or stop calling me out with absolutely nothing to back it up. Or not. Whatever makes you happy.
What exactly makes you overqualified?
My intelligence is greater than average.
you’re the one that comes across as a know it all, I was just responding to your latest arrogant comment
I have a high intelligence and high baseball intelligence. Nothing I can do about it. Born that way and seen a lot of baseball. I am a critical thinker. Capable of being neutral. Most people aren’t all or any of these things. So going to disagree with most people. Most fans aren’t qualified. I know you see Yankees fans trade proposals. Pirates fans and every other teams fans are the same way. Just as a fan of your team you don’t realize you are the same. Most fans don’t like certain players, manager, gm, owner. I just have the ability to look at things objectively. Because of all this I am hated and should be. So I don’t shy from it. I embrace it. People love to hate a heel.
I don’t hate anyone, even you Dream. Your problem, other than being arrogant, is thinking the baseball world revolves around you
The first part of this post, yeah, agree, me too
The second part only speaks to a segment of Pirates fandom, at least
I’m less of a fan of the Pirates than I was as a kid, or even through Leyland’s run. Had I read this diatribe then and I’d have agreed
Now, I’m just a fan of the game I grew up with, played, yadda yadda, and happen to pull for the guys with “Pittsburgh” on their jerseys. Aside from guys who make the town their home, like Cutch or Neil, I don’t really have a favorite player but I don’t dislike anyone, either
It’s funny that you bring up objectivity. It’s often equated with negativity by the rose colored glass set.
As for you, I appreciate your insights even if I think your objectivity is from the outer edge of reality
Hate? Because someone gives opinions about a millionaire’s game?
I enjoy the conversations
*sometimes from the outer edge of reality.
Sorry
I don’t think I am arrogant or that baseball world revolves around me. See down below. I think Suwinski has been a above average to even good baseball player. Corn disagrees. I didn’t call him stupid. And don’t think that either. He is tired. And old. And a dude who’s entire life heard nothing but batting average batting average batting average. People are creatures of comfort. I simply explained why I feel batting average isn’t the most useful stat to value a players production. Maybe I “enlightened him” that’s his words on another discussion we had which he thanked me for. Probably will disagree with me. But I consider him a good mlbtr friend and feel like he views me as the same. Nothing wrong with disagreeing. And I will be much nicer to you that you unmuted me. I only use those who muted and can’t see what I say to put on a show for others.
Thanks for the laugh, Dream
(I actually was never a big batting average guy, unless we were talking Tony Gwynn or Ted Williams)
I do have high hopes for Suwinski. He just has a long way to go
And yes. You did enlighten me. I still believe that’s their modus operandi moving forward
@YourReamGM. Spent my whole working life around “highly intelligent” people in a number of disciplines and fields. Some I hold in high esteem and others not so high. From my experience, whenever someone bragged that they were highly intelligent, they weren’t. They thought so, but they weren’t. They were confident when they shouldn’t have been. As Charles Darwin (didn’t know him) wrote, “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.” Don’t brag, let others determine whether or not you are intelligent.
Nothing too brag about. I didn’t do anything too achieve my superior intelligence.
You will either recognize it quickly or you aren’t capable.
Don’t go anywhere during the trade deadline. I plan too put on a intelligence display.
Dream-Skeptical is skeptical.
In my experience the only who we really have to impress is ourselves.
Man 3,
I’m just confused by why you sternly don’t believe that there could be a mutual deal involving Cutch.
you said it yourself.. Cutch did not want a 2 year deal.
Why? because they potentially discussed the idea of moving him to a contender if Pirates flop in 23, and a 1 year deal enables him to return to Pittsburgh in 24.
side note: I have no ego in this debate, simply trying to justify a possibility
you are missing the point, Goku
Cutch approached the owner about returning to Pittsburgh and suggested he’d take a massive pay cut to make that happen
His home is in Pittsburgh, he’s a pillar of the community and his family loves it here
He’s not going anywhere
“I don’t think I’m arrogant”…roughly 95 percent of all people who are in fact arrogant or condescending don’t believe themselves to be. But yes, you are arrogant.
Dream offers a great deal of insight on this site—as do you—and while I don’t always agree, I appreciate the banter
I think a lot of folks are missing the humor here
I never said he didn’t want a 2 year deal, he never asked for one but he’s made it clear that he wants an extension into 2024
There’s an interesting article in today’s Tribune Review on this very subject
In my defense, I miss Dream’s “ humor “ because he comes across so condescending
Most people miss it. And it isn’t humor but some of it is.
Most of my persona is real. Not all though. I just give it some steroids. And when someone gets cute snarky with me I really lay it on. I have talked with Mendoza Corn so much that a few times I made the mistake of showing them the real me. Very disappointing. They should hate me like everyone else but that little glimpse ruined it and now they can some what tolerate me.
It’s easy to find someone arrogant when they view something differently. To think they are stupid because 90 some percent of others don’t agree with them. Fans are celebrating a signing or trade and ole dream comes along and tells them how awful it was for their team. Doesn’t make you a popular guy. So if I am going to be disliked I might as well be hated. I think it’s good for the community to have villain or at least a anti hero. I usually just give my opinion then someone comes along and escalates things.
You also had me muted. And I hold nothing back on those. Have to test if they really can live without me. And out of dozens and dozens maybe hundreds only Samuel has completely ignored me. Everyone else checks on another account or unmutes me to see.
I muted you by accident despite threatening to
This very much sounds like the “ Chicks dig me…” speech Bill Murray gives during the company chat in “Stripes”.
I don’t know why we’re off on this tangent, but ok
Castro is in the lineup against a righty tonight, Bae, despite being the fastest player on the team and most prolific bunter is batting 8th.
Analytics aside, Shelton should explain his decision to bat who where in the order
Dream GM, personally I don’t have any issues with you at all. You are reasonable and knowledgeable, I enjoy your insights. Life is way too short to let people posting on the internet truly affect your life at all anyway. I get that a lot of people, myself included, are generally more hard lined about their stances when posting on message boards as opposed to speaking in person with other human beings. Sometimes the level of certainty with which you post is arrogant though. It’s usually amusing to me most of the time.
Side note I’m going to the game tonight and was hoping to see Nick Gonzales play but starting him at short against Darvish doesn’t seem like the right game to give Marcano a day off.
JIMMY- Another side note you were one of the first posters who I saw here seven years ago when I started and I always appreciated your and ToWhomJoshBellTolled(née Tolls) posts.
And regarding your side note,why do you and I and most of the other posters here and half of the free world agree to it but Shelton does not?
@jimmy Thanks for the kind words. I can see the arrogant part. I call it confidence but it’s a thin line.
Marcano looks like a better ss than Nick but isn’t anything special. Better option than Castro. Need to get Williams going and up for some defense. Hopefully Cruz fully recovers. He looked good enough.
I’m not so sure 3 months in another city for a chance at a World Series ring , would be a huge detrement to Cutch and his family
he’s probably fine with it , if I had to guess.
Given what you’ve said about his home and family in Pittsburgh, I don’t think renting him out to a contender would impact their chances of bringing him back in 2024
if this decision is made, it will almost certainly be mutual
in lieu of all this drama, just wanted to point out that me & corn have disagreed about plenty over time , but have always kept a respectful repotoir . never once petty
baseball ain’t that serious lads
and my user name is a total troll. i don’t claim to be an expert.. just a guy who likes debating sports on his phone at work
cheers
And Goku, I was flat out wrong, if I remember correctly
Looking forward to the start of football season for more conversation
no one could’ve predicted that Steelers draft would go that great ..
if u predicted they’d get Broderick, JPJ and Benton ppl would’ve laffed in your face
Cutch is really the only legitimate MLB player the Pirates have, outside of Reynolds. The guy lives here and unless I’m wrong, has a no trade clause in place so as to retire here
@corn: Pirates have several “legitimate MLB player(s).” Braves fan here who’d be glad to see Jack Suwinski playing left field in Atlanta if you can talk Cherington into dealing him to the Braves for Vaughn Grissom. Send Bednar w/him. You don’t like Hayes? He’s legit. Plenty of teams would take Oneil Cruz off the Pirates hands. How about Henry Davis? Mitch Keller? Not sure you watch the Pirates much. I admittedly don’t because I’m a Braves fan, but there’s more than a few quality MLB players worth having on that roster. Thinking you might have the Pirates confused w/the Rockies.
Nashville, come on over to a Pirates thread sometime and put forth these ideas
While I’m sure Suwinski would have better instruction in Atlanta, he’s a homer or strikeout guy currently mired in a horrendous slump
Hayes is a stellar glove who’ll never hit above .260
The jury is out on Cruz and whether he really can play SS
Davis just got here but we hope he’ll pan out
And yeah, Keller and Bednar are a couple of the few bright spots.
Maybe instead of watching highlights or just when they play the Braves, you should do a deep dive before embarrassing yourself with words li “quality” or “legit “ in a Pirates reference
cornwhisperer: I’m sure Nashville Jeff would watch the Pirates more if the networks would show their games. Right now, the only way that will happen is if they play the Yankees. The national media are missing out on some good stories by showing few, if any, Baltimore, Arizona, LAA and Cincinnati games. Those are four big stories that won’t be shown around the country unless, of course, they’re playing the Yankees. Tuesday night’s national game the Yankees vs. the A’s? You gotta be kidding me!
@corn he’s not wrong. All 30 teams in baseball would consider Hayes, Suwinski, Reynolds, Cruz, Keller, Bednar, and probably Oviedo, Davis, and Luis Ortiz decent players. To me, that’s a little more than just “a few”.
@avenger65: You’re right. I would watch the Pirates if they got more MLBtv coverage. I do get to see them vs the Reds/Cards because Bally covers the Reds, Cards, and Braves here in Nashville.
Bally? Sign me up!
Thanks to Bally I did get to see the Bucs when they were in Miami. I live in northwest FL and Pirates games in Tampa and Miami are always blacked out on MLBTV.com.
let alone the crazy prospects like Termarr, Endy, Priester & a 1st overall selection next month
Davis also total stud muffin so far
Goku, only when they get here and show what they can do at the MLB level should fans become enamored with Pirates farm prospects
They haven’t had a true great draft class maturing as MLB stars since the days of Cutch, Neil, Cole, Marte
We’ve seen this initial wave of talent. There is nothing approaching that level. Period
So I’ll believe the hype when they all arrive and prove it
Cole was seen as a can’t miss prospect.
I’m hearing similar things about Henry Davis, Termarr & Crews/Dollander
I get your point as we’ve seen with Tucker, Newman and others over the years, but certain guys have a higher floor
Sidenote: Marte wasn’t drafted. but Cruz could be the adjacent to Marte tho
going to have to find our version of AJ Burnett and Liriano , but Ben gives me faith as Hill, Cutch, Santana & Vince have all been serviceable veteran pickups (to varying degrees)
In that Tucker was their #1 draft pick in 2014 and failed miserably at every level, granted that was under the previous regime, #1 picks aren’t always a guarantee of stardom
I get the Bally coverage too for local Reds broadcasts. The only problem I have with that is the announcers. My Rockies announcers are not the best, but they know the team very well and try to at least familiarize themselves with the opposition. The Reds broadcast team of Jon Sadak and Barry Larkin are just fans with mikes. They have very little info about the other team, nor do they seem to care. They cheer when the Reds do well and act solemn when the other team does. It is annoying when you don’t have a rooting interest in the other team, but it is very aggravating when you do.
I think Cherington would want more than Grissom for Suwinski. While Suwinski has his shortcomings, he can still provide 25-30 home runs, an above average obp, above average defense in all three OF positions, a surprising amount of speed, and is still a couple years away from arbitration. That’s going to come at a major cost.
mlb, maybe Suwinski going to the Braves would be a remedy for his many offensive ills. Home runs? OK. But unless the Braves have some magic wand, he is pretty much a lifetime .220 hitter, at best. Given the plethora of talent on the Braves roster and in their farm system, how would they justify playing him regularly? And in a pennant fight.
I hope the Pirates can turn him around because he does have speed and power and is a good outfielder. But at present, his “shortcomings” would negate a great deal coming back for him
Two weeks ago, he was top 10 in NL outfielders in OBP, slugging, wrc+, OPS, led all CFs in ISO. Every single team in baseball would play him at least play him in a semi-regular platoon, if nkt regularly. He has shortcomings, but far from enough to “negate” any positive value he brings. I think you should give him a little more credit.
I think @TheMan3 has debated your analytics enough. The eye test and reality say differently
I get that he’s a favorite player of yours but the defense you put up always has your overestimating his play. I hope he does ascend to being one of the best. He’s nowhere near that threshold and well, Jim Bouton had a nice refrain about statistics
@mlb1225: Yeah I agree that Grissom alone is much too light an offer. I’m not even sure that Grissom really has much trade value anyway. His punch and judy offensive profile (and results) and poor defense don’t scream “trade for me.” Anything worth dealing for in the Braves mil system at this time is in the lowest levels. Not much at high A, AA, or AAA (other than Soroka and AJ Smith-Shawver) of trade value. Most of their recent pitching prospect draftees are either injured or performing poorly. Pretty slim pickings for the Braves to offer in deals.
I’ll give him credit for being on pace to strike out 158 times this season while only having 90 hits
If he keeps up at his current pace
And my eye test says he’s a decent player. It’s almost like the eye test is very subjective and changes from person to person. Hes not even close to one of my favorite players eithet. Like it or not, but all 29 other teams would view Suwinski as productive player and would gladly welcome him to their lineup.
All 29 teams, eh? And the everyday line-up? Complete baloney
Maybe the words “quality,” “decent” and “legitimate” need some definition
In terms of position player line-ups, as per my original point, the Pirates have Cutch and Reynolds, when he comes off of the DL
Hayes is a Gold Glover but will never be a hitter
Cruz is a work in progress but has shown more flashes of being a star than any other player coming up recently.
Because it’s too early to tell with Cruz and Hayes is largely one-dimensional, I’ll call them “decent” players at this point
But in no way is Suwinski in the conversation yet. TheMan3 keeps providing real world explanations to you and you throw meaningless analytics in return
Have it your way. I do hope Jack improves greatly for the sake of the franchise. I just don’t see it happening anytime soon
I agree, Suwinski is a decent player but he goes into lengthy slumps and outside of improving his ability to draw walks, he’s nowhere close to being a clutch hitter and leaves too many players on base after his ABs
Well for one, the statistics I am using are far from meaningless. wRC+, OPS, slugging percentage, on-base percentage, walk rate, I don’t see how you could call those meaningless. You want to use the eye test, but my eye test tells me something different than yours. Who says my eye test is more valuable than you eye test, or another person’s eye test?
Also what real world examples are you and him providing? The fact he’s struck out with RISP a handful of times? How about the three home runs he’s hit with RISP? What about the ten walks, 13 hits, and 27 total bases he has with RISP? Are those not real world examples?
Look, Jack Suwinski is far from a perfect player. I’m not arguing that. But name me a team who wouldn’t take a guy with a who demolished right-handed pitching, plays above average defense, is a plus runner, and gets on base at an above average rate?
@NashvilleJeff Yeah, their system isn’t great right now, but that’s what happenes when you promote and use, or trade a dozen guys in two years. I don’t blame them for having a bad system though. That’s just what happens when you get aggressive with promoting and trading prospects. It has seemingly worked out for them.
Way to go, cornwhisperer! That’s the way to tell if a player is any good or not, with your EYES! The analytic freaks would have called Ty Cobb and inferior player by grinding his analytics into some skewed form. I’m sure the Tigers didn’t say “Yeah, he hit over .400 and at one time held more than 80 records (some of which still stand today), but analytics tell me he’s in the lower percentile in hitting and defense, so we’ll pass.”
O’Neil, in the brief time I saw him, reminded me a little bit like Elly de la Cruz. Would be nice to have a player like that on your team.
What has the done lately? An 0 for 28 slump suggests nothing
He struck out 4 times in Friday’s game alone and now has 79 for the season
Suwinski is no Ty Cobb, he’s not even a Dave Kingman
We talked earlier about Haines and the idea that there are literally too many problems here for one hitting coach to take full blame
Like Cruz, however, Jack is one guy who could benefit from getting his own guru
And I’m not saying you are wrong or blind. I certainly don’t have all the answers. But over almost 6 decades of fandom now, I’ve seen many prospects come up and show flashes. That’s all
I like Suwinski and hope he can work it all out.
Suwinski is more of an Adam Dunn-lite with the bat if he could field and run.
Suwinski is a pure platoon piece. He is comically bad against lefties. He had legit power that I will say, but if righties have figured out his holes and Suwinski can’t adjust accordingly he’s going to be a low variant all or nothing player and nothing more.
Pirates problems are:
–automatic out at catcher
–mediocre first baseman who will maybe hit 12 homers this year
–Questions in the OF, 1.5 OFs. Can Davis man the fort in RF? Hope so, because Pirates prospects in OF are looking like busts
–Pirates farm in high minors is not great. Gonzalez just doesn’t look that good, Swaggerty is trending toward bust, Priester has been doing OK but doesn’t look like a future ace.
Reds way ahead of the Pirates in their rebuild.
Corn never claimed that avenger
There’s a lot more in the upper minors than just that. Anthony Solometo just cracked MLB Pipeline’s top 100. Jared Jones was on Baseball America’s recent top 100 prospect update. The former is at Dobule-A and the ladder is at Triple-A. Liover Peguero has been doing really well this season at Double-A. He’s only 22. Don’t forget about Endy Rodriguez. Next season, Bubba Chandler and Thomas Harrington will also be at Double-A, if they don’t reach that level by the end of this season. Lots of names no one is really talking about, even if they are very talented.
Suwinkski rarely swings at pitches on the corners of the strike zone and next to Connor Joe, he strikes out looking because he doesn’t know the strike zone
If it’s not right down the middle he won’t swing at the pitch. Then when he’s in the hole 0 and 2, he over swings instead of trying to foul off the pitch to get another try
I didn’t compare Suwinski, or anybody, to Cobb, nor would I. As for Kingman, he should be glad not to be mentioned in the same breath as that klutz.
I wasn’t responding to you avenger
Otherwise I expect roster changes before today’s game
O’Neil from his time on Minors til now has never shown the type of power or especially speed Elly has while on Reds Minors. That’s not to take anything away from O’Neil he looks like a special player. But Elly looks to possibly b a generational talent.
hmm idk . I think we’ve seen guys like Suwinski turn into household names after a few seasons of figuring it out at the big league level.
can’t teach that kind of a raw power and athletescism.
what he does with it will be determined in time
Thank god Jeff ain’t the Braves’ GM.
I don’t think Cutch has a no trade clause. He doesn’t need one. Probably got a verbal commitment not to trade him unless he wants it.
Other than the pen, other teams would be interested in every pirate. Tons of average to above average talent. Suwinski has a 900 ops, will get back above 1000 if he gets out of his slump. Only Pirate fans care about his batting average. Other teams don’t care.
Suwisnki is at a .814 OPS. That’s not bad, but he was at .924 before he went into this slump.
I only factor vs rhp. A team trying to win wouldn’t let him face lefties in any meaningful at bats.
So he’s essentially a platoon player. You’ll forgive me for asking, is that what the Pirates really need right now?
And to Avenger, lol, good point. I do think analytics are important to assessing a player’s value. But it would seem to me that analytics and stats are two components that have the Pirates in this situation when you look at virtually all of the guys who’ve come to them from the farm in the past couple seasons
Watch the games
What am I missing?
I’m not saying these guys aren’t full of potential but something is wrong here especially when you compare them with what you see coming up on other teams
Need? A platoon player is fantastic for them. Combine him with Joe and you are getting all star level production. Much better than Tom Alford Fowler Polanco Gamel Palacios eh?
Palacios honestly hasn’t been terrible, especially considering he was a minor league Rule 5 draftee. He’s been great in the outfield with his defense, and will occasioanlly provide some hits. He could even be better. Has a 92 MPH exit velocity and 45.2% hard hit rate. He’s not the second coming of Mickey Mantle, but he looks like a very solid 4th OF.
However, I do agree on your assessment on the other players you mentioned. If the Pirates can get Joe and Suwinski back on track, that could be an extremely productive duo.
Palacios is fine. Just not Suwinski Joe level. Polanco was fine platoon. Even Gamel.
Gamel was pretty meh, another 4th OF type. Polanco was fine pre-2019. His injury in late-2018 really derailed his career. He had seemingly figured things out that year and that leg injury completely halted any development he made that season.
Yep. Still managed to get 700 ops. Not good enough if you want to contend or what he could have been but they put worse out there.
Corns my buddy. Not only did I get him to see the Pirates vision but got him completely on board with it. My goal now is to get him to ignore batting average. Not easy to do. Anyone who still thinks it’s that meaningful really dug their heels in.
That’s a stopgap, Dream. Cmon now. Look, I understand they don’t have anything approaching a Bonds or Cutch coming up through the minors and really, to completely beat a dead horse, you have to wonder about just who is/was in charge of scouting. The endless stream of potential outfielders coming up and given a chance is incredible.
Stopgap/platoon outfields aren’t going to place them in contention
And although I know you ate genius level and all, pairing Suwinski with Joe will give them all star level results? Really?
Your sarcasm is astounding
Suwinski and Joe have like a .900 OPS against opposite handed pitching this year. Platooning them really is comprable All star production. Pirates just don’t have enough depth right now to hide them against same-handed pitching most of the time.
Joe is batting.128 with runners in scoring position and is second on the team in strikeouts
He’s hardly the player you would portray him to be
I’m just dumbfounded by this take, mlb, and I’ll leave it at that.
I simply must need to stop sniffing glue during Pirates games because clearly, I’m not seeing what you and Dream are
@cornwhisperer. Hear me out. Read my ? Answer to yourself. Then read how I answered it.
What is the goal for a baseball team trying to contend? Easy one, win games. How do you win games? Score more runs then your opponent. How do you score runs? By getting people on base and advancing them. Does a walk and a single both get someone on 1st base? What normally allows someone already on 1b to advance more bases? A single advance to 2b or with a faster runner 3b. Double to third or scores run. Triple or hr obviously best. Suwinski hits .220 Adam Frazier would hit .276 Suwinski far superior. Not close. Why? Go over your answers. You have wrc+ ops+ which really isn’t need unless its a Rocky or Red Sox. I like basic ops. League average is around 700. 702 703 etc. Suwinski vs rhp like most starters are is 900 something ops. Until his 0 for 20 30 something whatever slump it was well over 1000. That’s the same level mlb mvps have! Look at all stars and their ops. 800 to the mvp vote getters 1000. Vs lefties you bench Jack and start Joe. Who at one point in May had I believe a 1000 ops. Ops is on base percentage plus slugging. So a high ops means you get on base a lot and hit with a ton of power. Aka you score and drive in runs. Aka you win games. Go look at who you think are the 50 best players in baseball and compare Suwinski ops vs rhp against their ops. You are taking 2 players to make 1 all star. You have 3 or 4 bench spots. You don’t need 9 guys who hit both rhp lhp.
@TheMan 3 Batting average doesn’t matter and pirates haven’t had enough people in scoring position to have a meaning enough sample size.
If that doesn’t convince anyone to forget batting average nothing will. I should be teaching at an elite university.
Stats from 2023:
Connor Joe vs LHP: .293/.390/.549
Jack Suwinski vs RHP: .240/.357/.559
Combined: .252/.368/.556
All numbers are up-to-date, so that includes Suwinski and Joe’s recent drop. I don’t see how that isn’t all-star level production. Heck, Harmon Killerbrew’s career triple-slash looks like that (.256/.376/.509).
@Dream You’re right about the Joe/Suwinski platoon. If you were to completly hide Jack vs LHP and Connor vs RHP, you’d get a Combined .252/.368/.556 batter in 280 plate appearances.
Dream, you seem to understand that you are preaching to old school fans here and your rendering, while thorough and somewhat condescending , isn’t turning over any new stones
Perhaps teaching in a middle school could be your calling?
There are relatively few platoon set ups that work to the point of providing “all star level “ play in total or lead a team to the promised land
I’m sure you know this
Invariably, there is some kink that skewers the issue. Defense, speed, power , overall hitting. While your point about a guy like Suwinski not getting the opportunity to drive in runs because of an anemic offense, it emphasizes the fact that two competent players for one position is a luxury a team like the Pirates can afford
That said, I never thought batting average or statistics told the entire story where many players are concerned. I’m less enthused about analytics in this regard.
As stated above, I have no doubt that oversaturation of analytical data has put the Pirates farm in the state it finds itself in. Lots of data that point to superior play but where the rubber meets the road, it doesn’t jibe
You’re essentially asking old school baseball people to not believe what they are seeing game in and game out
Thanks for the reply. I understand where you and mlb are coming from, even if I am wary of it
@mlb1225 I know. I am always right. But thanks anyways.
JK so so kidding. I shouldn’t have put the JK in there. Theman would have loved that. I think mlb1225 would have gotten the jk but I have missed sarcasm jokes before and didn’t want to chance ruining our good baseball talk on a pirates off day.
“As stated above, I have no doubt that oversaturation of analytical data has put the Pirates farm in the state it finds itself in. Lots of data that point to superior play but where the rubber meets the road, it doesn’t jibe”
I’ve said it before, but the Pirates, and most Major League teams are probably are not using the statistics you are thinking of. They’re not scowring Baseball Reference, FanGraphs, or even Baseball Savant to plan things out. I would be willing to bet that what we see as fans, even the most in-depth statistics we can find that are publically avaiable, are just the very tip of the iceberg of resources avaiable to Major League teams.
They have Hawk-Eye in every park, they have Rapsodo machines in batting cages and bullpens, they have whole departments of analysts, both scouts and coaches who watch players day in and day out, and stat guys who translate the data they collect from Rapsodo, Hawkeye, and other tracking technology and implement it into useful potential strategy.
Stuff like wRC+, OPS+, OPS, wOBA, even WAR, is probably not commonly used lingo in the front office.
8@cornwhisperer. somewhat condescending. Only because I don’t want to assume you or anyone else who reads this knows everything. I know you know that winning games is the reason for playing baseball and to win you have to score ect ect. But a good example Mendoza doesn’t know these things. I kid Mendoza. Not like you will show up anyways my good friend. I explained that way to show how I view Jacks value point a to point b. But those early points are not somewhat but very condescending. Not my intention. I believe your baseball iq is well beyond that.
Massive props to mlb1225. Showing that the Suwinski Joe platoon comp is a hall of fame slugger. Well if that doesn’t make you a believer nothing will. Jack wouldn’t even have to hit at that level. His defensive and run allow for far less bat then he has.
I am a eyeball person myself. My eyes tell me he has been good. Ops is basic. Analytics people probably use wrc+ at a minimum. Hard core ones have their own formula. I just wanted to keep it simple in case Mendoza shows up. Again I kid. Trying to get his ears burning so he shows up.
Well you see corn. They got this piece of wood, it’s called a bat. And you try to hit this round thing called a ball. Lol Forget teaching. I am getting into politics.
Here’s a old timer stat. RBI. Suwinski has 35. Only 2 people have more Santana 37 Reynolds 40. Not many more. And they bat higher in order and have more at bats. 5th place, a very distant at 24 is Cutch. Also bats higher in order with more at bats. On the bright side Cutch has a .271 batting average.
(Uh, Dream..I was trying to sound a little high brow with the “ condescending” tag, what with your aspirations of teaching at a local university. Apologies, professori)
Pirates can’t or at least shouldn’t pay half a billion for Ohtani Soto. But they can certainly afford to pay Suwinski Joe and get same results. Maybe better. Ohtani doesn’t play defense and Soto not well. Not buying that gold glove finalist. They run better than Soto.
The natural come-back to this is to now compare strikeouts.
But then, when mlb provides a slash line that starts with a .252 BA combined for Jack and Joe and calls it All Star worthy while you claim Hall of Fame, well, we’re off on different planes of reality
I’m not advocating trading Jack or sending him down I just want to see refinement
Hey. Where is Mendoza, anyway?
I hope you, and everyone else, get the humor in these latest posts.
Professori Dream. Has a ring to it
All good. If I was capable of smiling and laughing I would have had a good chuckle. You called it out quite playful and in good sport. After reading it again though I still had to apologize and explain. That was pretty bad. Could have skipped some parts and shortened it up.
Interesting tid bit. Luis Arraez who has a .399 lets just call it 400 batting average has only driven in 2 more runs and scored 4 more than Suwinski. Even though Arraez has 75 more at bats.
With nearly double the batting average you wouldn’t think the runs and rbi would be so similar.
9@cornwhisperer Does the team that has the fewest strike outs get the win? Have you seen the movie money ball? Come on corn say it. We have Killerbrew and I didn’t even realize it!!!!!! Thank you dream and mlb. Lol
PS. Wouldn’t be as many Ks if you avoid the lhp.
Dream- Mendoza actually agrees with you on OPS.
It is simple enough of the new statistics for me to understand.
I am not just another pretty face.
It’’s the 3724 other ones that I have problems with.
Managers have been using batting averages against same and opposite side pitchers for many decades.
The batting average,hrs,and rbis still have importance,but they are no longer the only important ones because other stats can be apropos in reflecting how good a player has been.
I’ve see this argument historically over the seven years that I have been an imposter on here.
I actually think that several important stats do not seem to show up.
When was the last time that you saw number of games available versus roster days?
When will they throw out the top and bottom 10% of game stats to see the average better?
Why don’t they show the batting average with men on second and third?
They may keep these stats and I am not just aware,but aren’t they important ones?
In the meantime the youngsters on here who hate the three traditional stats will just have to wait until the Hall of Fame changes their criteria.
And if Dream has his way,the first will be OPS.
Corn-Mendoza has been in hibernation with Punxsutawney Phil.
@mendoza Do you believe that by using Suwinski and Joe in ideal matchups that we have Harmon Killebrew 2.0?
I knew if I called you out enough I could bring you out of hibernation. You keep coming back checking these articles. We got mlb draft. Hill Santana trades. Maybe Cutch Bednar Keller! Dunno about those but hopefully. Draft odds for 2024 #1 pick. Oakland Kansas got a good lead but 3 4 5 6 are in reach.
We just had a strong storm pass through and it woke me up from real hibernation.
I check the articles to make sure that you knuckleheads are not taking Mendoza’s name in vain.
You are still centered on draft picks and minor league players.
I am centered on MLB progress.
I do not see anything wrong with platoons.Plenty of championship teams have had them.This thought process goes back to the Ming dynasty.That is even before Killebrew,who was one of the nicest guys to ever play the game.
Why is Shelton too stupid to do it?
I am,however,impressed with the thread of the Pirate fans on here.It can be an invigorating read.The trolls are still mostly staying away.
At this point maybe that is all that Pirate fans can hope for as Cherington completes his 75 year long rebuild.
My heart is always in the farm and draft but spent more time than usual with mlb team. I don’t know what happened after April. So many guys just don’t hit at the same time. Reynolds is good. The Suwinski platoon is great. Bae with his speed is above average. Palacios is average. That’s a mlb outfield. Cutch at dh good. Hayes bat average. Marcano Castro platoon above average. Santana average. Hedges awful. 1 player can’t cause this much awfulness. Can a hitting coach cause so much damage? It’s incredible how bad they hit when everyone is at least a almost 700 ops player.
Dream-Two outs,down one run,men on first and second,last of the ninth.
Would you rather have Ty Cobb or Eddie”Walking Man”Yost up to the plate?
Michael Martinez is up after him.
Cobb all day long. Although Martinez is at his best with runners in scoring position.
so having a pathetic batting average with runners in scoring position and only having 20 RBIS for the season doesn’t matter?
If using analytics is so successful why isn’t this team scoring runs?
Like I said, I need to stop drinking heavily during Pirates games because given the comments of Dream, mlb and now Mendoza, I’m obviously missing how great some of these guys are
I’ll go with Reynolds being a good player.
I’m still trying to wrap my head around the idea of a Suwinski/Joe platoon being All Star caliber
Throw in Palacios who is average and we somehow have a major league outfield
Marcano and Castro are somehow above average, Bae has speed and is only able to show it in pre game wind sprints
Yeah. Ok
I’ll say it again: you can’t get blood from a stone. Haines may be substandard but he’s dealing with a perfect storm of minor league ability hitting the majors all at once
Young talent that’s above average? Besides the obvious talent in TB and ATL, has anyone been watching the O’s? And to cement the point, an anyone name more than 4 of their players?
Lastly, after watching Crews again from LSU last night, he should be the Pirates’ number 1 pick
My 35 year old nephew, once taught at Georgia Tech, now is a Chemical Engineer at a pharmaceutical company, skipped 9th grade, received his Doctorate at age 26, yet is down to earth and most striking, doesn’t brag about his intelligence or achievement
forgotten fun facts
Suwinski/Joe combined strike out totals in 2023
150
79 for Jack
71 for Connor
when you fail to put the ball in play you’re not going to generate many runs
Even if Haines isn’t the second coming of Don Baylor, the fact that not one player has improved his batting performance suggests that he’s just not the best for what this team needs
TheMan3, I always appreciate your comments here and find that I am of the same thinking in many, many instances
Regarding Dream’s comments.. humor. I read these types of posts as being an attempt to throw some humor into the discussion
I appreciate all of the regulars on Pirates threads whether I agree or not
But I also think it’s wise to not internalize any reply. It’s meaningless.
combination of injury and complacency under extension is my thoughts on the fall of Polanco
Throw in lack of plate discipline, ignorance of pitcher strategies and count situations, inability to pick up spin and off speed pitches, failure to learn nuances of playing right field at PNC and baserunning blunders you don’t see in little league, and you’re right
Polanco was given an extension far too early, to be sure. The front office imagines an outfield of him, Cutch and Marte. Would have been nice
are you sure those issues arent a consequence of complacency under the unwarranted extension?
I’m not sure, but could be a factor
point taken Cornwhisperer
that’s my basic premise of many of these players, Goku
complacency
A few need a dose of reality by being demoted to Indy, their places on the major league roster are not guaranteed
Su-wing-and a miss-ski
He left the Pirates system exactly the way he entered. He came with all the tools.
To me, he’s the failed player development department personified.
Sure, a player has a role in wanting to improve but overall, the Pirates failed him
I tend to laugh at those who say his last injury killed what progress he was making. To me, that again is emblematic of the dividing line here between fans who see with their heads versus those who see with their hearts
He never progressed. He was a sucker for a curve in the dirt or fastball at eye level. Fly balls and balls off the wall were an adventure for him. And running the bases often reminded one of being at the circus
Corn-I never said that Suwinski/Joe would be great.Think of it as maximizing the return on your players as all good MLB managers do.Nor all star caliber.Think of it as saying that both will play less but maximizing their contribution skills to a winning team,
Mays and Clemente and Aaron never needed to be platooned.Unfortunately,none are available to play.
These two are not them.
I was against the Joe signing from the start,and thought that he was an extra peg when McCutcheon could not get a big contract on the market.
But there is beauty in a platoon.
Joe has been up for several years,and what you see is probably what you get.Suwinski should be taught the strike zone better,and be much more defensive with two strikes.With a good hitting coach and manager he would be forced to do it.
Remember that Cruz has his own hitting coach.In the first game of the year,with the leading run on third base,he went to left field and lifted a fly ball to bring him in and eventually win the game.Why can’t Suwinski do that.
A platoon,with Bae occasionally in CF and Joe at first base,would maximize the Pirates hitting ability and lead to more runs,and solve the dilemma that you and The Man face in lessening the number of both of their at bats.
Goku-If you are talking about Shelton,I doubt it.
Part of that was because of the great first month,part of it because Shelton has been good with the young players,and part of it was they did not want a lame duck.
I liked NH.I liked Hurdle.But giving them both four year extensions after two mediocre seasons did not augur well for the future.
NH got complacent,and Hurdle just got worn out.
Nutting was not getting good feedback from his president.and was too uninvolved to clearly see what was going on.
I am afraid that the same thing is happening here.
History does repeat itself.
I can go back to the platoon days of Al Oliver to explain why I am not a fan of it, in general. Too often, you have a mismatched talent level at some facet of the game and it comes back to bite you. Or in Oliver’s case, you begin to harbor a resentment about not playing more
I do understand your thoughts on the matter and with the slim pickings the Pirates have, and given Suwinski’s problem with lefties, hey, why not?
But this is not All Star caliber
Jack reminds of a boatload of former Pirates who’ve left here and torn it up someplace else. I hope it doesn’t come to that, but it won’t surprise me
Here’s hoping they draft LSU’s Crews and he is a fast learner to takes over the CF job quickly. Move a hopefully rejuvenated Suwinski to right, and they’re set.
I think Goku is referring to the contract Polanco signed leading to complacency. And while it might have led to him feeling less stressed, I doubt it. The young man worked hard, from all accounts. But if he is not getting solid instruction, he’s just doing things the same way, over and over
Side note: I liked Hurdle, too. I think he knew how to communicate with and inspire his players to getting maximum efficiency. Good man, too
But as they did to Leyland, the team had a taste of winning and then watched the core disperse to other teams. It’s a lot to ask a manager to take ten steps backward and start over in such circumstances. Add to that his hip situation
Last I heard he’s in the Rockies’ front office. Hope he’s doing well
Corn- Regarding Polanco,I think that he was an example of a player who in essence could not be helped.I do not think that he had the mental and competitive makeup to be a good ML player,plus his physical skills were overrated from the start.
I saw him and Frazier joking around in the outfield just before the start of a Phillies game in 2016 and realized then that he would never make it big.
You have to really want to do so and be serious about it.It is a very competitive and difficult sport to do well.
Guess I see things a bit differently. Even if your view of him is true, it’s incumbent upon coaches, teachers, professors to address a learning paths and the myriad types of individuals in their charge, or they shouldn’t be in the business they are at all
Anyone can coach the elite player with a high IQ
This is part of the failure of player development I continually harp on
MLB- If the Pirates were smart,they would have platoons in right field,center field,first base,and second base.They would be Palacios and Andujar,Suwinski and Bae,Joe and Santana,and Castro and Bae.
Davis would get games at first base,right field,and catcher,and would go back to AAA for further seasoning if necessary.
But that’s a big if.
Sorry but get Triolo up here, too
We’ve seen enough of Castro and while Bae puts forth effort, I’d rather see Gonzalez given more of a shot
And yes, give Davis reps behind the plate
This team is going nowhere. Why stick with guys who’ve you’ve seen over an extended period who are doing nothing?
Navigating through the education system doesn’t prove you are highly intelligent. A genius can memorize the material much faster than average or above average intelligence could. Doesn’t take a genius to graduate college even ivy league. But if it was easy for him he probably does have higher intelligence. The fact that he doesn’t brag about it is a good sign as well. I didn’t brag. I just stated it as a reason why most people disagree with me. And that isn’t the only reason as I stated. Someone with high intelligence might not be as high in critical thinking or objectivity.
I have my doubts about your nephews intelligence. Above average sure. High maybe. Really high or elite I dunno. He is 35 and is still an employee. Not even an executive. Not a creative job. He could just really love what he does. Don’t get me wrong. You have to have something up there to be an engineer. Just that top minds usually seek creativity and freedom.
Would need to know what he thinks of a Suwinski Joe platoon to make my decision. Mlb1225 is of high intelligence for sure. Not only did he see how it was a all star but on his own accord found a comparison to a hall of famer. Most impressive. The odds of discovering such an intelligent creature in the trade rumors comments were astronomicaly low. What an incredible find.
@corn “I’m still trying to wrap my head around the idea of a Suwinski/Joe platoon being All Star caliber”
I am loving this. You may not be as intelligent as bright eyes (mlb1225) who picked up on the all star platoon quickly. But realizing you may not know everything and there is more to learn is a sign of your higher intelligence. I hope you ponder this over more and either come to the same conclusion as me and bright eyes or make a convincing argument against my thesis.
Dream, I know that you are unable to smile these days—although I don’t know why—but forget that career as a professor. You have a future in stand up comedy. And mlb could write your material. You could appear in major and minor league ballpark taverns across the country
There’s a good article in the Post Gazette suggesting that it might be time to boot Haines
Is there enough time to bring in another hitting coach to improve the offense of these players?
someone with high intelligence doesn’t mention that, his style of articulation in expressing his views is his convincing argument
They don’t even make a argument or worry about convincing anyone. And I don’t.
The smallest of changes can get results. They can hire someone. Shelton Kelly etc could step up. Cutch Santana as well. All of the above sounds good to me. Something needs done. Might not be his fault but he is easy to blame.
They need a whole host of changes to affect great results, otherwise it’s like putting a butterfly bandage on a deep knife wound.
Try as I might, I don’t see much difference in the culture of losing that pervades the Pirates now than that of the Russell, McClendon or Tracy tenures. The sad difference is that there is a young core here now that was absent in those years
You’d think upper management understands the danger in allowing it to fester or be rewarded with playing time. That’s a great way to ruin young talent. But we saw this with Hayes and his sunflower seed incident and Castro and his cell phone last year
Shelton’s not the answer nor is anyone on this staff save for Marin
Want change? Clean house. And hire new directors of scouting and player development
Corn-We agree much more than we disagree young man.
I am not sure of the scouting and development directors,although one may very well be applicable.
You know what my thoughts are on Haines and Shelton and have been for a year..
The jury is out on Cherington,but I think that in general he has done a reasonably good job.
Like Shelton,I doubt that he is tough enough to see the writing on the wall,in capital letters,for over a year.If Nutting has to get involved,the shame would be that he actually does clean the house,including everybody.That is why it is much cleaner if Cherington does it,and now.
It worked very well for the Phillies last year.Give Don Kelly a shot for half a season.
The shame is that Cherington is oblivious to this realityand thus becomes part of the problem.
Paul- Probably not,but it gives him a heads up for next year and time to analyze changes this year.
There is time to make this change though.
It also gives the team a chance to realize that if you do not make progress you will not be on the team.
It shows that someone in management gives a crap about losing.
It puts Shelton on the hot seat,and begins to do the same about Cherington.
I said it last year.Someone corrected me,but the basic premise is that the definition of failure is doing the same thing over and over again with the same negative result.
Corn-Sometimes knowledge can be a detriment.The Oliver situation is entirely different.Back then the Pirates produced hitters,and had a very good team.Not so today.
They had to move him after they found a taker for Marty Alou who they got Vic Davalillo and Nelson Briles for.They had to make room for the Maryland Strong Boy,who helped them win the WS against a team with four twenty game winners.
As Jim Mora said,we’re talkin Jack Suwinski and Connor Joe here.
And they will not be set in right field because Suwinski will never be able to hit left handed pitching.It is something that he should have learned to do in the minors and that is one of the problems that they have in bringing up these guys before shining in AAA.
I think Cherington has done a good job, too, and would say that the coming draft should be extremely important to his future here
I don’t think the idea of cleaning house involves him
Unfortunately for Kelly, he’s a member of a failed staff and a reminder of the rotten culture here.
As for the scouting department, again, you marvel at the difference in prospects who are arriving in markets similar to ours, Cincinnati and Baltimore and then look at the Pirates I don’t know how many are leftovers from the last regime, but their substandard play is a reflection of Cherington
often times when the camera gets a shot in the dugout they’ll show Cutch going over stances with Bae and I’ve heard that Santana does the same with Latino players
I disagree but it’s not worth discussing with you further
Being self righteous, you don’t have the broad enough vision of your own personality to think that you don’t
Dream- So average is still an important consideration,no?
I lost some respect for BC when he gave Shelton an extension earlier this year
I understand no manager wants to be under the cloud of a one year deal, conversations prior to this decision should have included a time table for significant improvements.
Yes he can still be fired but that would show Nutting that BC should be questioned next time he wants to spend money
After 2 consecutive 100 loss seasons, Shelton and Haines should have already been on the hot seat
Corn- Thank you for the enlightenment on Goku’s post.
I think that you are coming from your extensive baseball coaching and teaching career which is only natural.Scouts can only make recommendations on what they see,and maybe an interview.
If they do not get the right players for the coaching staffs,it will be a failed experiment.
If the scouts were perfect and the coaches were perfect management would have too many good and very good players.You saw that with Robertson and Oliver.By the way,there was a reason why his nickname was Scoops.He was a good first baseman.But it was a real tip to his cap that he was a pretty good centerfielder too,and he should have realized that the Pirates appreciated that fact.
I would say it a different way.
After an equivalent 111 loss season,and two 100 loss seasons,they should have been fired.
I remember that era like yesterday and I was just a kid. TheMan3 and I have kind of touched upon this on other threads but there was a level of excitement I felt about the game as a kid and young man than I do now. By miles.
You brought up the Maryland Farm Boy, who missed a bunt sign and homered instead in the NLCS. Scoop at 1st and CF. The Great One. Stargell. Sangy. Blass
The Oliver platoon story was an example out of context to Suwinski but meant to illustrate platoons aren’t surefire remedies.
According to several sports reports the perceived #1 pick doesn’t want to be drafted by the Pirates and said he won’t sign a contract if he is
Scott Boras is his agent and has a horrible relationship with Nutting and his predecessor, McClatchey
Corn-Triolo will come up when Nick goes down after an 0-25 start.
Then Triolo will go 0-25 and the Pirates will wonder what is wrong.
These guys,even Davis,are being brought up to take pressure off Shelton and management.It is a discredit to both.
The good thing is that they do get an understanding of what it is like in the major leagues.That is a plus.But they cannot continue to fail without acquiring a negativity about failure,especially on a bad team.
No offense towards you Mendoza as I do agree, but it’s become an annual ritual to use the “ next year “ mantra
With this franchise it’s always next year, except they don’t specify which year they are referring to
Dream-I became a Civil Engineer after my baseball career was finished.I was taught to think inside the box.
After entering mid level management,I had to start to sometimes think outside of the box.
It is two separate types of intelligence.I doubt that Claude Renoir could have done what I did.But I know that I could not have done what he did.
The Man’s nephew is highly intelligent,probably the type that in some ways I admired because it was so easy for them.
But he may not be able to think outside of the box,nor may he want to do so.
That makes him different than the free thinkers that you are talking about who were quite possibly never too good at learning inside the box at what others had learned years before them and what they were taught in school.
It makes the book learners no less intelligent,and less prone to over rate their own intelligence.
And I would rather have The Man’s nephew design a vehicle to Be used in a safe manner than in one designed by any of all of the free thinkers in the world.
I only care about wins. If the best player available happens to have a high average fine. I prefer guys who can hit at a high average. I just don’t evaluate players by only average.
No offense taken or necessary as we both agree that it has been going on for the best part of thirty years.
But they are smarter than us.
Because next year never comes.
It seems that prolonged slumps on this team is contagious which can also cause damage to one’s self confidence which could explain Suwinski’s 0 fors and perhaps even Bae’s
The former at least draws walls
Castro doesn’t seem to fit that mold, he’s a free swinger who I believe doesn’t really know the strike zone. I’ve seen him swing at pitches that bounced in front of home plate before
Corn- Of course.We were young!
And,no,platoons are not surefire remedies,but do often maximize pluses and minimize negatives.
When Gabe Kepler was introduced in Philadelphia,he spoke about many things,including coconut oil,but one thing that he emphasized was optimizing at the margins in order to win.
Gabe is never to be confused with John McGraw.
But just think of the platoon situation as helping to win at the margins.
And as you say,what do they have to lose.
Castro is hitting at a near mvp pace excluding vs rhp. A platoon of him and Marcano although not quite all star will make a great 2b when if Cruz returns. Maybe Nick G will hit rhp but he should be able to handle lhp.
Crews doesn’t have a choice. He can take his 8 million or go back to school. Pirates will get 2 overall next year. That sounds awful to me so expect he would sign. I wouldn’t want to piss off most agents but Pirates don’t deal with Boras free agents often and the player has all the power anyways. Boras works for them.
Sounds like a cheap negotiating tactic to me and I would call Crews bluff. Going back to school will be risky and cost him money even if he stays healthy and plays good. Pirates may fold.
Apologies. Really a poor attempt at humor. Don’t know Crews or if story is even true. Shame on me. Not funny
I don’t buy into the next year theory. 2013 14 15 clear contenders. 2016 as well but 3 starters fell off a cliff. Hard to predict. 2017 they didn’t sign starters. Depending solely on prospects was risky so expectations should have been no playoffs. 2018 was clear reload and fine. They over achieved and brought false hope but no one should have thought 2018 was the year. Same with 2019. 2020 21 21 clear rebuild 60 win teams. 23 hey they did something, looked like 70 some wins. April gave false hope. No one should have thought playoffs since 2016 maybe 2017. 24 looks most promising year since 2017.
pittsburgh fans don’t mess around !!
agreed some of this is getting out of hand lol
I’m on team: Suwinski has tremendous potential..
thinking Mark Trumbo comparison, who was also an impressive athlete
yep.
one of the main reasons other teams prospects seem to pan out better is these kids have to fight for a starting spot.
pirates always pencil in their prospects into ML starting positions
Jeff Clement automatically starting 1B, Kebryan Hayes zero competition at the hot corner.
2 solid examples, but the list goes on and on and on
It’s obviously more than that, Goku. Not many guys come out of college or high school as newly minted, ready to play at the MLB level types. And most take some time to get through the minors
Here, it continues to be the case of drafting or stocking up with young talent via trades and then watching them stagnate in terms of development. Rather than their skills dictating their promotion, it almost becomes more in line with a “next man up” idea that brings them here on the Indy shuttle.
I’m hoping Davis and the guys mlb1225 often writes of that represent the second wave of prospects break that mold. I’m hoping that the development people who’ve come in under Cherington are more capable with teaching than those who were here under Huntington
The more I watch Gonzales, the more I think he should play every day. Dream can say what he wants about Castro and TheMan can opine about Bae, but we’ve seen enough.
And by all means, draft Crews
You guys still going? Head over to new pirates news article. What I say about Castro? He should start once a week and pinch hit. Weak platoon is all he his. Send him to minors to stop switch hitting. Talent and development has improved big time. Takes time and they are ahead of schedule. Was one of the hardest and longest rebuild situations you could take on.
according to my own system (custom fantasy rules) Suwinski is rank 170 in the mlb .. factor in with pitchers, he’s prob a top 100 contributer .. as a 2nd year player.
my league values HR, but also kills you on strikeouts , so things seem to be balancing out for him over the season.
Dream- The Pirates have some decent young players,and a few good ones.
But your five year rebuild is taking too long.They should have a decent team by now,good enough to win in a weak division.
They need to be managed and coached better and fundamentals need to be ingrained.
They need to understand that you have to win in professional sports.
They need to have platoons at catcher,first,second,right field,and center field.
I thought that the relief corps was a strength before the start of the season and they proved it but the regression has been too much.
I will say that unlike others on this site that I think that even players like Castro if coached and used properly could become effective ML players.Bae the same way.What some do not seem to understand is that these players are all young,many with not more than one year of ML experience.And those of us who remember the great players from the 60’s and 70’s May think it somewhat easy to successfully play in the ML’s.It is very difficult.
I see the glass as half full and rising.But I doubt that they have the kind of superstars that would eventually make them a fine team.
At a certain point they have to walk the walk instead of just talk the talk.
I think we can all agree that pirates should look into a whole new Manager and coaching staff next year
.. but only for someone with a proven track record like Mike Sciosca etc.
Only had 2 rebuild years. This is year 3. Well ahead of schedule.
Sorry,fourth yearBC did not use rebuild term when hired
2019awful second half NH fired BC hired
2020 equivalent of 51 wins worst year for Pirates ever 1st year
2021 60 wins goal of 61-2nd year
2022 61 wins goal of 71-3rd year
2023 equivalent of 77 wins-goal of 81-4 th year
2024- goal of five year rebuild 91 wins- we will see if they can do it next year
Go-The Pirates have only hired Hurdle and Tanner as experienced ML managers that I can recall.
I think that Scioscia is past his prime.
I think it a good thought but there may be none out there,and who would want the job.
Hey Texas, CJ Cron is coming back from injury. Just saying.
CJ Cron to the Rangers if he hits well after coming off the IL (which is supposed to be soon).
He hasn’t really hit well this year.
True; the hope is that he’ll be back to an above average hitter if fully healthy. Enough time before the deadline to see if things turn out that way.
He hit very well in the first week of the year. He was named NL player of the week. It was basically all downhill after that though.
Apparently Reynolds has had a nagging back problem for a while now which put him on the IL last week
And Hayes is now going through the same with his back
They have Nate Lowe at 1B who has played fairly well. A 4th OF is probably their only even somewhat needed piece offensively. Grossman has currently been filling that role. They would probably b best suited with a defense first OF for that 4th spot as their lineup is anything but hurting for run production.
It’s the Rockies though. Just because you should trade someone doesn’t mean they will.
McCutchen needs to retire as a Pirate.
He could play for the Rangers, then when he decides he’s had enough, he could sign a one game, or one AB contract with Pittsburgh so he can retire as a Pirate. Happens a lot.
Pretty much guaranteed he retires as a Pirate unless they really piss him off or something crazy.
He has already spoke of wanting to sign for longer with Pirates. I could see a scenario where he wants to b traded for remainder of season to a contender, with a gentleman’s agreement they ll resign him in offseason. Especially if their spiral continues. They re 1-9 in last 10 games and have to now deal with a scorching Reds team.
I could also see a scenario where he is absolutely content with where he is at. Which very well could b the case.
Dump Martin Perez and a bad prospect for McCutchen!
Perez has had 3 bad starts all season. You could do a lot worse
For sure, but you could certainly do a lot better for a team regularly in the top 2 in these biased power rankings. BP help > Outfield help > Starting help. Besides, even his “good” starts have come with bad peripherals. He walks too many, hardly strikes anyone out, gives up too many meatballs on 0-2, and lives inning by inning with double play balls. That is not a 20 MM pitcher. Maybe 1 MM at most
To me this is 100% up to McCutchen. If the Pirates continue their current winning % of the last 2 months they WILL be out of the running come trading deadline. Then it is a question of whether Cutch wants a post season run elsewhere after which he can easily return to the Pirates next year which at this point seems very assumed whether he is traded or stays with the Pirates. I don’t think Pirate fans would ‘lose their minds’ if they know it was Cutch’s wish and would be ready to embrace him come 2024. Now of course if it comes to that, Pirates do need to get as much back as they can. which may be hard if it is a one destination bidding war. (ie. there may be others interested in his services) and if more than one destination it still has to be acceptable to Cutch or this blows up on the Pirates completely.
Cutch wants to both retire as a Pirate and win here whether it’s this season or next
He called owner Bob Nutting over the winter and offered to return to Pittsburgh even saying he’d take a huge pay cut
So any belief that it was the Bucs that pursued him is pure fiction
On top of that, the Pirates and McCutchen have a “handshake” ntc. To me, the Pirates aren’t moving Cutch unless he asks to be traded, or the Pirates are offered something outrageous (like Josh Jung), both scenarios are extremely unlikely.
@MLB I think you are spot on. The Pirates would have to get a highly touted prospect to entertain such an offer.
Slightly confused with your response to my comment TheMan3 – may be my brain. But I think you are agreeing with me, but not sure where I implied at all the Pirates pursued Cutch. On the contrary which is why I think this is 100% up to Cutch. If he doesn’t want traded he won’t be, if the Pirates continue their current course, then he will likely have an easy conclusion that any contention as a Pirate will be next year and he will be gladly welcomed back… if that is what HE wants.
I wasn’t responding directly to you, SouthernBuc, my comment was for general discussion
Pirates trading Cutch regardless of his desires spells PR doom, but if cutch requests it, I would be a little less up set.
Even if it makes sense getting a great overpay and Cutch signing off on it… I doubt the average person who watches baseball would be remotely pleased and blame Nutting for dumping salary.
I doubt Nutting would sign off on it this time.
Nutting deserves the heat he gets but lets also be real at this point he is blamed for a rainy day or a day that is too sunny and hot. so at this point I don’t think how he is perceived plays into this at all.
I disagree (per my comment) that it is PR doom. Take my comment literally which means Cutch publicly states he wants this. He is revered (rightfully so) and I think the majority of fans will get it especially when he is signed to return the day after the World Series is over.
Nutting deserves whatever criticism thrown in his direction, weather related notwithstanding
He’s cheap and unliked for good reasons
Since Bob became the Chairman his biggest mistake was letting NH continue to squander resources. Much of what people say does not have context or just BS,
Still, he is at the top and ultimately responsible for the franchise
You really think Nutting cares what fans think?
i think Nutting cares about the number of people in the stands at PNC Park
every time Cutch’s name is announced at home games, he gets a standing ovation
The only way Cutch gets traded is if he asks for one. And he ain’t. The end.
Now I do agree with this… while my rambling in other comments states the only way this happens is by Cutch making the request… I don’t see that request coming.
Pirates will inform Cutch of team choices and their plan to use him. He can think about it and talk with family. He said he doesn’t want to leave Pittsburgh but it’s fine to change mind and people do. Maybe a ring not with Pittsburgh doesn’t appeal to him. Will find out.
Dream- You are exactly right.No trade clause,not in his contract.If the Pirates get an offer like they received for Quintana last year,they ask Cutch,do you want to go to this team?If he says yes,they trade him,and sign him next year again.If no,they keep him.
Pirates management owes it both to themselves and to Cutch.
Makes no sense. DH is hardly the most pressing need for the Rangers. They need bullpen help a lot more. They should be asking the Pirates about Bednar.
Bednar has 3 years left before he’s arbitration eligible, any offer for him would have to be extreme
Teams are allowed to make more than 1 trade.
I’ll add another twist. Let’s look at this through Cutch’s eyes of wanting to contend in 2024 in Pittsburgh. He realizes additional talent helps the Pirates win in 2024. Assuming he is planning on playing in 2024, he can help set up not only him getting a chance to play in the playoffs in 2023 but also help increase the chances of he and the Pirates contending in 2024 by bringing talent to the organization by him being traded. Full conspiracy… Pirates play this to the fullest and say Cutch does not want traded so they need overwhelmed and somebody agrees to over pay.
I KNOW this is not happening… please don’t take this post too serious. But it was fun to throw out there. The end of this movie is when the player traded to the Pirates is the winning pitcher of Game 7 of the 2024 World Series and celebrates with Cutch after his game winning homerun against the Yankees – Mazeroski Take 2.
It wouldn’t be the first time a player did this, SouthernBuc. He’d essentially be a rental for the stretch run and then come home
I just don’t see that happening or this franchise competing for anything anytime soon
They’re two years away…from being two years away
Brewer fan here if you want Winkers we will gladly give him to you to be your DH!!
He could have had a nice career if he didn’t waste all that time in Pittsburgh.
I’d say accumulating over 2000 hits, 400 doubles, 150 steals, 295 homers, drawing more than 1000 walks and scoring as well as driving in over 1000 batters is already considered a “ nice career “
Apparently your definition of ‘ a nice career “ is equivalent to Hank Aaron’s lifetime stats
Aaron was overrated.
Aaron was overrated?
Why, because he didn’t need to take steroids to hit 755 homers?
@TheMan The OP’s whole comment thread is to just get a reaction.
I really think that McCutchen could be a HOF. Might seem like a longshot for Cutch and Willie Mays will be the only MLB CFs to have at least 2000 hits, 300 home runs, 200+ stolen bases, a 120 OPS+, and 50+ bWAR (Cutch is very well on his way to reach 300 HRS and 50+ bWAR). While that might seem like a high barrier of entry, and a lot of things to surpass, it’s three counting stats, a league adjusted stat, and an advanced metric. It covers pretty much any voter of any age would want to see in a player. That’s not even considering any of his accolades he’s received.
I just don’t see it happening but would love it if it did. He seems like the type that in some ‘veteran committee’ vote someday he could get in with a stacked committee like Harold Baines. I do think his overall personality / citizenship etc. does help a player sometimes and he would pass that test with flying colors. Of course if you read my fictional account of the 2024 season elsewhere in this thread… you would see how he added to his resume.
See, I think too often you see the ‘character clause’, which is so objective and biased in the first place, used to prevent guys from getting into the HOF. I’m not saying we should just let guys who were convicted of serious crimes into the Hall, but you almost never see the opposite argument to get a guy into the Hall. it’s always “this guy has HOF numbers, but was known to be a cancer”, never “This guy might not have ovbious HOF numbers, but he was a pillar in his community, and played an important role in the clubhouse”.
He was an MVP, made the playoffs three times, and is beloved by his adopted city of Pittsburgh. Poor guy, how does he sleep at night after wasting all those opportunities in life.
Antonio Brown is beloved in Pittsburgh as well. Doesn’t seem like they set the bar very high for their sports heroes.
With your Aaron comment and this you are just trolling at this point…. to each their hobbies. . Good day.
Before Antonio Brown left Pittsburgh to become a head basket case, he was the premier wide receiver in all of the NFL
But you probably don’t think his stats don’t reflect that either
I see the trollies are back. Clutch isn’t going anywhere. As far as suwinsky is concerned, it would be a major mistake to trade him or send him to Indy. They call up two of their future young stars. What does Red Shelton do. Plays Davis in the outfield and leaves journeymen bums to catch
The other should be playing everyday at second. Can’t call these guys up to sit them or play them three times a week.
I’m going to say it again. SHELTON NEEDS FIRED.
Yeah. Franco. Swann. Roberto. Lemieux. Sid. Willie. We are all clueless yinzers
What a dumb comment
Shelton should have never been given an extension
Source? Or is this just idiotic blathering with nothing factual to back it up? Don’t answer that. Antonio Brown is not “beloved in PIttsburgh”, at least not anymore. At one time he was amazing and Brown jerseys were everywhere, but he morphed into a clown and is basically a running joke now.
Flashdance, Mr Rodgers, Ben Rapethlisberger
Buuba-With all due respect,that is the most intelligent thing you have ever said on here.
You have been consistent.
And all of these experts spouting statistics do not understand the importance of having a good manager who can motivate a team and realize that Suwinski and Joe should be as one.
And that sometimes you need to bring your best reliever in in the 8 th inning.
And that staitstics do not pick up the importance of having a relatively set lineup.
And that,yes,it is very important to win this year.Why?Because this division is bad,and it is only going to get better,
Very well stated by Buuba, and you, Mendoza. Couldn’t have said it better
Welcome back
TRADE CUTCH!!!! *Only if he would like to go after a ring.
Harmon Killebrew 2.0 isn’t going anywhere though.
I monitor MLBTR for spirited discussions but no longer look at game scores except perhaps on a weekly basis.
I think that Shelton was fine for a few years but I think that you mentioned that there was some laughing going on in the dugout and that is anathema for a losing team and points out that the manager has no control.
I have been saying this for a year so I have been consistent too.
And if people say that they would have to get a first timer that may or may not be true as there is some depth in the farm system now.
The question is is it deep enough to withstand injuries,actually has some blue chip future mlb players,and is not the mediocrities that they have been putting out except for about a five year period over the last thirty years.
I also point out your class in giving Buuba a compliment.
One of my problems with the losing streak was that it again looked like the team was fine with losing. Almost like an expectation. Saw no passion or intensity. We saw this last year of course, but Cutch, Santana and Hill seemed to make a difference for a while.
You’re right. The manager dictates the culture and in that regard, Shelton is overseeing a culture of losing. Russell. Tracy. McClendon. It’s about the same
Maybe Clint is available to come back
Not only fine with losing but intentionally contributing to it. Remember the 2 weeks they let Castro play every game to absolutely make sure he couldn’t hit rhp? Not only is his batting average under .200 but slugging as well. Won’t be surprised if they stop his switch hitting and let him work on it at the MLB level.
Dream-Are you beginning to realize that Shelton is not the answer to a winning team?
I think a good manager might get you up to 5 extra wins. A bad one might get you 5 loses. Couldn’t judge Shelton 2020 to 2022 because the goal wasn’t to win. O thought the goal in 2023 was to win and in April he did fantastic. Got that extension and not much longer down hill. Fans get on him for lineups and bullpen but don’t understand lineups and bullpen usage. Bednar can’t pitch 2 innings 4 days in a row lol. But his situational decisions have been awful at least 4 or 5 times. Didn’t cost 5 wins but might have cost 1 or 2 or 3. But I see what the gm does and says and I believe 100 percent they don’t care about winning in 2023. So either Shelton is a awful manager or he hasn’t started trying to win yet. Need 2024 I guess. Don’t mind extension because it should have been dirt cheap minimum wage. If not that’s on gm. Nobody was going to steal Shelton. I like that players seem to like him and don’t quit. They seemed genuinely happy for his extension. So it’s likely he is awful but I don’t know for sure. And management isn’t trying to win so it doesn’t matter who the manager is. Lets get rid of Andy Haines first then we can talk Shelton. A lot of awful managers won championships and a lot of great ones never did.
Dream- Us long time Pirate baseball fans have heard this bs many times before.That is one advantage that us less than brilliant Pirate fans have over you.
They have lost a magical year when they could have won their first division since 1992.
1992!
It is preposterous for me to think that BC has said we do not need to win this year.
What is their improvement rate?They are as bad now as they were in 2020 when they would have won 51 games in a full schedule.
Do they have some good young players who should get even better?
Yes
Are they going to waste the best years of some of them?
At this rate,yes.
We had a Reds poster wish the Pirates well when they came out of the shoot extremely well.
Now I need to find him and do the same.
They may be decent individually but this team does not know the fundamentals,have any depth,and is prone to injury.Those 9f us who have been through this countless times before know the drill.
Tomorrow never comes Dream.
Phil and I have figured this one out.
@Mendoza Your intelligence is actually quite impressive for such a primitive life form. I would like to invite you to my ship for further study in my lab.
I thought in 2019 that 2024 would be the season. Saying 2024 now is saying maybe this is the year they try to win so I can evaluate Shelton? I endorse the trades and drafts for the most part. Development has improved. The commitment to winning I ?.
I think the demise of managers and coaches came with the dawning of the rise in salaries over the past couple decades. Hard to imagine what guys in position of leadership must now contend with in comparison to his counterpart in the 70’s or earlier
The entire idea of turning the heat up on under-performing or poor, me-first attitude types has been minimized by multi million dollar contracts and clauses
So management now must be “communicators” and “game managers”. We’re in the era of professional (and college) prima donnas who know they have the power, not management
Imagine Leyland blowing up on a Bonds type today.
Disagree with Dream here. The best thing a modern manager can do is inspire. You can’t maintain and foment a culture of losing. It translates to under performance, apathy, and a going through the motions mentality as the losses pile up
That’s my biggest problem with Shelton. There’s a fine line between being a guy who doesn’t want to put pressure on young guys and allowing fun and games in the dugout as the losses continue
Before every game, Shelton is interviewed, he’s asked about the offense and lack of runs scored
His only answer is that the players need to execute better
Each time I hear him say that I think to myself
no s**t sherlock”
Thank you corn and Mendoza. I’m just so tired of this complete moron screwing up the maturation of the young guys. Plays too many insignificant scrubs over the young guys. Can’t handle a daily starting lineup. And he destroys a pitching staff. Connor joe should be DFAd and the scrub catchers also. Play Davis behind the plate.call up swaggerty to see what he has. Get rid of palacios. Play the young guys 5 to 6 days a week. Get these outcasts out of Shelton’s hands. Force the moron to play the young guys. You can’t see what you have if you hide them on the bench.
Keep cutch as the designated hitter. I’m so tired of this little league manager.
I’ve not complained about nutting. He’s let cherington sign Hayes and Reynolds long-term. Keller is next.
As far as the complaints about nutting not wanting to spend on free agency. Well look at the overpriced Yankees and the padres. Spend all that money and nothing to show.
I remember when joe l brown dismantled the 60s pirates. He made veterans available for the two expansion teams. This led to the great 70s teams.
Now like I’ve been preaching, stumble bum Shelton needs canned.
Oh how Joel brown and Danny murtaugh must be looking down in dismay as they drink beer in heavens bar.
Peace all
Yep. I promised I’d said my peace about Nutting. I do think Dream has his method of operation down pretty clear. He’s following the Rays model in terms of personnel. Can’t blame him
And given what you said about the signings so far, he’s following the script
Shelton’s managerial style has no rhyme or reason to me. The past two seasons, he had castoffs taking up space. Now he has kids who’ve come up, or guys like Joe, gotten a long look, and are taking up space
If you have guys who are stuck at AAA and can’t get here because of a refusal to move on from players who just aren’t cutting it here, how does it make sense?
Dream-You have so much intelligence that all of us other life forms have very little to divvy up.
Your buddy BC is going to have shift his 5 year plan forward a few years
I do think that he has some good young players who need coached better and managed properly..If he is waiting to match his winning schedule plan as opposed to wanting to win now then he should be fired even before Shelton.This is isn’t basketball or football waiting for a prime quarterback where tanking has its use.
There is a reason why many Pittsburgh fans cannot wait for the football season to start.
Buuba- No problem.You and The Man were my prime compadres in fending off the numerous trolls that have infected the site over the last year.
Funny you should mention Murtaugh and Brown.I was just thinking of Danny today..Both of those guys were some of the classiest men ever in the Pittsburgh sports scene.I met Danny’s son Tim maybe twelve years ago and went on in depth how his father could have been elected mayor of Pittsburgh very easily.
Back before the big business and huge salaries were the fun times in baseball and when it was truly the National pastime,
Rebuild is ahead of schedule. As I told corn it was about as hard a rebuild to take over as you could have. Talent is already here. Reynolds is a good player. Suwinski platoon so far is a great player. Yes better than Reynolds unless its 2021 Reynolds. Davis looks like he could be all star. So so early but the ability is there. Triolo at very least is a solid super utility guy. Could be Harrison Whitfield Zobrist type. Can play every position. Dunno about catcher though. Probably not. Gonzales wide open. Better defensive Castro to all star. Endy bout ready. Just need playing time for him. Priester ready enough when needed. Selby as well. Nunez hr 1b making his way. Jones Solometo next year. Lots in A ball complex dsl.
He was also runner up once for MVP and won 3 caps silver slugger awards
I wonder if the Rangers would be interested in Pham Pham. The Mets need to sell sell sell and Pham has been one of the few good hitters in that lineup.
“Robbie Grossman leads the Rangers with 88 plate appearances as their DH, and he’s hit extremely well in that time.”
That is not the case. He hit well in April. He has been very bad since then.
If the Rangers are desperate for a DH, I recommend Dan Vogelbach. (As do most other Mets fans.)
Will need Ruf too vs lefties. And a couple pinch runners.
How about a straight up Kapler for Bochy trade? 10 game win streak is not enough to make me wish the Giants kept Bochy and got rid of Farhad and his games.
DH McCutchen
2B Semien
SS Seager
RF Garcia
3B Jung
C Heim
1B Lowe
LF Duran
CF Taveras
Dream on Rangers fans. Cutch is never wearing another jersey in an MLB game than one that says Pirates. Unless it says National League in an All-Star game that is.
City connect have Pirates on it?
Would much rather see the Rangers bring back Nelly Cruz and stick him at DH for a final goodbye of the Rangers in the postseason.
Just don’t put him in right field…
Or trade Joe Ryan
This trade makes a ton of sense. The Rangers are in position to make a playoff run for the first time in awhile and may give Cutch a shot at a ring finally. Pirates are on the upswing and getting a few prospects for him is a good move. Rangers are also going to need some help to fend off the Angels & Astros down the stretch. I like the trade for both sides here.
Cutch for single-A RHP Ricky Vanasco.. a guy with a ton of upside, who’s had a ton of set backs
maybe another piece involved, but something like that
Exactly, I don’t feel they need much but Cutch and maybe a starter would be great
There is pr and ticket sales value in keeping Cutch. Cutch legacy value as well. If Cutch doesn’t crave a ring even if it’s with another team he ain’t going anywhere. Doesn’t sound like he does but minds can change. Just a nice little click bait story. Nothing to put too much thought in about trade returns and what rangers lineup looks like with him.
I mean I’d love to see him finish it out in Pittsburgh however we know how the deadline goes
I’ve seen enough. Finally. A prospect is living up to his billing
Play Gonzalez
Mackey and McFadden are the 2 of the most pessimistic professional Pittsburgh sports writers. I’m willing to bet that neither of them believe the pirates would be stupid enough to trade Cutch, unless he wants it. It would drive away half the fans they have left. Not being able to bring him back next year is more likely, since he should hit all these career milestones this season.
I don’t read Mackey as being a pessimist. Yeah, he has come around to the reality that this is a bad team with an inept manager, but he also continually writes articles that detail help that’s on the way from the farm
Zeise’s column yesterday actually went in depth as to why if approached with a real of prospects, the Pirates should deal Cutch AND/OR Bednar. I don’t particularly agree but he made a lot of good points, namely that this team isn’t going anywhere this year. Or next
I still think it’d be a pr nightmare, unless Andrew requests it
Completely agree, and they can’t afford such a nightmare
Meanwhile, every resident of Mars, PA would picket PNC if they moved Bednar
Triolo called up and looks like Hayes is going to the DL. I would have half-expected Shelton to sit Gonzales tonight after a triple and HR last night—it’s part of his managerial genius—but now I guess he has little option
If you start a sentence with and, it doesn’t need a comma after it.
Also, too shouldn’t have a comma before it.
no one cares