The Reds enjoyed a youth movement in 2023 as exciting youngsters like Matt McLain, Spencer Steer, and Elly De La Cruz helped to push the club into unexpected contention for much of the season, though they ultimately fell short of playoffs with an 82-80 record. The aforementioned names alongside other youngsters like Christian Encarnacion-Strand and Noelvi Marte have created something of an infield logjam for the club when taken together, however. The club’s positional mix has gotten crowded enough that the Reds do not expect to have sufficient at-bats available to allow franchise icon Joey Votto to finish his career in Cincinnati, given the roster’s current construction.
The excess of infield options makes it a no-brainer for the Reds to at least consider dealing from that surplus, and the club seemingly did at least listen on offers for 2021 NL Rookie of the Year Jonathan India, who started the season strong with a .271/.355/.439 slash line through 73 games but battled plantar fasciitis throughout the second half, with a slash line of just .201/.312/.356 in 205 trips to the plate the rest of the way. With India unlikely to move off second base in favor of another position on the diamond and the Reds reportedly interested in acquiring additional infield talent it’s fairly reasonable to expect India to once again be available this offseason, particularly given the club’s dire need for a reliable starting pitcher to pair with Hunter Greene at the front of their rotation.
While it might seem prudent to hold onto India in hopes that a full, healthy campaign from the 26-year-old in 2024 could increase his trade value, the sparse free agent class in terms of middle infield options could make India a more valuable commodity on the open market than he might otherwise seem to be. The likes of Tim Anderson, Whit Merrifield, and Amed Rosario headline the current class of free agents up the middle, all of whom India outperformed in 2023 even while battling injuries. What’s more, he could even wind up being more financially affordable than those lesser options, as he’s set to make his first trip through arbitration this offseason with an affordable price tag of just $3.7MM projected by MLBTR’s Matt Swartz. Adding three years of cost-controlled production from India certainly appears to be an attractive option when compared to a pricier one-year flier on Anderson or a commitment to Merrifield’s age-35 campaign after three consecutive below-average seasons offensively.
So, which teams could be a fit for the Reds to partner up with on a deal? As previously mentioned, India seems to be more or less locked into his role as a regular second baseman, meaning teams with a clear plan at the keystone for 2024 make little sense as a potential fit. That likely eliminates the Astros, Cubs, Padres, Cardinals, Yankees, Rays, Diamondbacks, Orioles, Guardians, Twins, Rangers, Phillies, A’s, Marlins, Rockies, Mets, Angels and Braves as potential suitors, as each of those clubs have either a clearly established second baseman or a surplus of potential infield options of their own. Meanwhile, the Royals and Pirates are unlikely to give up long-term pitching assets to acquire a player who could wind up blocking options within their own systems. That still leaves nine clubs that could feasibly be interested in India’s services this offseason, however. A look at how they match up…
Best Fits:
- Dodgers: Among the clear best fits for India is the Dodgers, who were forced to move superstar outfielder Mookie Betts to the infield dirt for much of the 2023 season. While he pulled off a multi-positional role with aplomb, a middle infield acquisition that could allow Betts to return to right field full time while alleviating pressure on an infield mix of Gavin Lux, Miguel Rojas, and Miguel Vargas would make a lot of sense for LA. Meanwhile, the Dodgers have plenty of interesting pitching prospects and young arms that could entice the Reds, such as Nick Frasso, Landon Knack, and Gavin Stone.
- Mariners: Seattle is another clear fit for India’s services. The Reds and Mariners have gotten together on several deals in recent years, with Cincinnati sending the likes of Luis Castillo, Eugenio Suarez and Jesse Winker out west while recouping key prospects such as Noelvi Marte and Brandon Williamson who helped to accelerate the club’s rebuilding process. A cut-and-dry buy-sell trade doesn’t make sense here anymore with both sides hoping to contend in 2023, but the Mariners have interesting young arms like Bryan Woo, Bryce Miller, and Emerson Hancock who the Reds would surely be interested in acquiring. Meanwhile, second base was a problem for the Mariners in 2023, and while the addition of Josh Rojas should help shore up the position it’s easy to see how India could make sense for the club as a potential centerpiece of a deal should they decide to part with one of their young arms.
- White Sox: Though not the obvious contenders that the other teams in this tier are, the White Sox are perhaps most desperate for middle infield help of any club with utility players Lenyn Sosa and Romy Gonzalez projected as their starting double-play duo in 2024 as things stand. They also boast one of the most enticing pitching trade chips on the market this offseason in right-hander Dylan Cease, who is controllable for the next two seasons and boasts a 3.54 ERA and 3.40 FIP over the last three seasons with a 30% strikeout rate. While a one-for-one swap of the two players seems implausible given Cease’s front-of-the-rotation potential, India could be an intriguing piece for the sides to build a larger return package around given Chicago’s needs up the middle.
Next Tier Down:
- Blue Jays: Toronto recently lost both Matt Chapman and Whit Merrifield to free agency, creating major holes around the club’s infield. With the club firmly in the midst of their window for contention, a deal for three years of India would help solidify second base for the next three seasons while also allowing the club to focus their financial efforts on either re-signing Chapman or pursuing a left-handed outfield bat like Cody Bellinger. That being said, the Jays have some interesting young infielders such as Davis Schneider and Ernie Clement who they may be interested in giving runway to in 2024, and are in need of pitching depth of their own this offseason. While it’s certainly conceivable that the Reds could have interest in Alek Manoah as a potential change-of-scenery candidate, it’s hard to pinpoint what sort of value Manoah would have in trade this offseason on the heels of an incredible 2022 campaign and a disastrous 2023.
- Brewers: The Brewers are in a precarious spot this offseason, with the club likely to entertain trade offers both on shortstop Willy Adames in addition to righties Corbin Burnes and Adrian Houser. Burnes, of course, would be an incredible addition to the rotation-needy Reds, while the possible departure of Adames would create a clear near for the club up the middle that could be filled by shifting Brice Turang to shortstop and acquiring India to play second base. While the fit between the two clubs is certainly a sensible one on paper, it seems unlikely that the division rivals would get together on a trade of this sort of magnitude barring the Brewers settling on a full-blown rebuild, at which point acquiring a player already into his arbitration years like India makes little sense.
- Tigers: While Detroit may appear to be something of an unusual fit for India’s services, the club mustered a second place finish in the AL Central last season, suggesting they could be building toward more success in the coming years. While the Tigers are unlikely to be favorites for the AL Central crown in 2024, India’s three seasons of team control make him a solid fit for the club as a clear upgrade over Zack McKinstry at second base. What’s more, the Tigers have a bevy of interesting young arms from which to deal, from the type of controllable, quality arms that would require a larger package like Tarik Skubal to potentially cheaper options like Matt Manning and perhaps even Alex Faedo.
Longer Shots:
- Red Sox: The Red Sox have a clear need at second base for the 2024 season, and India could certainly make sense to help plug that hole. Unfortunately for Boston, however, the Reds are unlikely to be interested in dealing for a player from the club’s outfield surplus like Alex Verdugo, and the Red Sox are in need of pitching help themselves this offseason. It’s not impossible to imagine a deal coming together centered around mid-rotation veteran Nick Pivetta or a younger arm like Josh Winckoski, but a hypothetical deal is further complicated by the impending arrival of Marcelo Mayer, who alongside Trevor Story would likely kick India over to DH early in his tenure with Boston, likely hampering his value to the Red Sox.
- Giants: The Giants have Thairo Estrada as a clearly capable regular at second base already, immediately complicating the fit between the two sides. That being said, San Francisco is in clear need of offense, and adding a young, reliable second baseman like India to the club’s infield mix could allow Estrada to take on a multi-positional role. After all, he has experience at shortstop, third base, and both outfield corners in addition to the keystone. It’s hard to imagine the Giants giving up enough near-term pitching to entice the Reds to make a deal, however, given their own need for arms this offseason.
- Nationals: The Nationals are in the midst of a protracted rebuild, immediately making them something of a dubious fit for a win-now player in his prime such as India. That being said, with three seasons of team control India would likely still be under control when Washington is ready to contend in the coming years. The club has utilized Luis Garcia at second base in recent years, though India would be an upgrade over Garcia, who has experience at shortstop and could potentially be moved elsewhere on the infield, at the keystone offensively. Washington also has a handful of young arms who could be of interest to the Reds, such as Jake Irvin or Josiah Gray, though it’s unclear if the Nationals would have an appetite for dealing a way a controllable arm at this stage in their rebuild.
frustrated_angels_fan13
Why not Cleveland and make a go at Bieber. Sure it’s highly unlikely but I mean I’m not gonna put it out of the realm of possibility
In nurse follars
Because they have a gold glove platinum glove awards winner at second already and the top prospect is a shortstop?
deweybelongsinthehall
What’s hard to envision is a potential three team trade. Certain teams may not match up directly but adding a third team changes the equation.
Shadow_Banned
India to the Indians makes sense.
Aaron Sapoznik
A Guardado to the Guardians makes even more sense…
Blue Baron
@Shadow_Banned: No it doesn’t. The Guardians are already strong in the infield.
YourDreamGM
It makes sense to me Shadow and probably 99.3 percent of commenters.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
@Blue Baron He said Indians, not Guardians. Way to be politically correct.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
I don’t think it makes sense… no way Guardians trade Beiber to the Reds.
mikeyny
So it makes sense to trade your star pitcher for a 2B when you have Giminez, Freeman, Arias, Rocchio, Brito, Angel Martinez and Jose Tena all in the 40-man Roster as 2B/SS options? Instead of trading him for a much needed OF or C? No. I don’t think 99% are agreeing with you.
solaris602
Excellent point. CLE has zero need for any infielders, especially not a 2B only player. CLE needs at least one RH hitting corner OF run producer, and that’s about it.
YourDreamGM
My bad. I overestimated the intelligence of our community.
Blue Baron
@Cora: He said Indians, not Guardians. Way to be politically correct.
Blue Baron
@YourDreamGM: If you think it makes sense, then you’re dragging down the intelligence of our community.
That’s why it’s easy to overestimate.
BaseballisLife
Cleveland has a Gold Glove 2B that hits as well as India. They have no need.
Shadow_Banned
Blue Barrons the kid id shoot spit wads at in high school.
YourDreamGM
@Shadow Not possible. He definitely had different classes and rode a different bus.
Blue Baron
@Shadow_Banned: As opposed to you being the kid we stoners made fun of, having to take remedial classes and later flunking out of community college.
Stevil
BB, I hope you can remember what made you smile in your photo before you post more comments.
Have a great Sunday
Blue Baron
And I hope you remember why you feel the need to comment at all.
Happy Sunday to you as well.
Stevil
I do…
To have fun. Life’s too short to be bitter and nasty all the time.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
It was mostly a joke anyway, but okay.
Blue Baron
And yet you felt the need to make an issue of it.
But OK.
BaseballisLife
Meaning you were on the short bus along with Shadow?
Blue Baron
I agree. I have plenty of fun on here.
You?
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
I just completely misunderstood your use of repetition, that’s all. Sometimes it’s hard to read, especially those who are fluent in sarcasm and whose writing exhibits itself as literal.
Blue Baron
If you’re talking to me, I rode several subway lines to school. Sometimes the A to the L, other times the 4 or 5 to the L, and others the R to the L.
You rode a bus?
BaseballisLife
Was talking to GM.
Blue Baron
OK. It’s often hard to tell who is addressing whom on here.
Blue Baron
@YourDreamGM: I rode several subway lines to school.
You took the bus?
Stevil
I enjoy talking baseball. You should try it sometime. Talking trash 24/7 can’t be as rewarding.
This reminds me I need to thank MLBTR for the mute option once again.
Prospectnvstr
Jonathan INDIA to the INDIANS. It’s a play on words on what coulda,shoulda & is a lighthearted joke (poke) at the WOKENESS / politically absurdity that our country has become.
Blue Baron
You just figured that out? Took you a while.
YourDreamGM
Don’t worry about how I got to school. Nobody gives a F except you two weirdos.
Blue Baron
I’m not worried. You and your opinions are of no consequence to me.
Kind of lame that you feel the need to resort to name calling, though. Sure sign of a limited intellect.
steelerbravenation
No it absolutely doesn’t
YourDreamGM
Come on people. You can do this. It’s only 2 letters. Take India and add NS and what do you get? …….
7 hours later… Yes Indians. It was just a cheesy attempt at humor. Absolutely nothing to do with Clevelands needs.
Shadow_Banned
I like BB he’s like that nice uncle we all have. Are you saying BB wasn’t in AP classes like I was?
I was also stoner.
I just didn’t conform to prototypical subservience and wasn’t a blind follower of cultural norms.
Shadow_Banned
And yes I did get made fun of from time to time, it comes with the territory of being a class clown
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
@YourDreamGM, I got it the first time and I usually don’t. But I completely know what you were saying, which is reason for my prior response.
Blue Baron
@Shadow_Banned: Haven’t you been out of high school long enough that you no longer need validation for your blather about non-conformity?
Although being in AP classes doesn’t exactly cry out non-conformity.
Since you asked, I had AP Calculus AB, AP English Language and Composition, AP Macroeconomics, and AP US History.
You?
Shadow_Banned
Sorry I meant PA classes meaning I was a Pain in the Ass in all of my classes.
Oh I still love the validation it’s one of the reasons I decided to become a singer.
Blue Baron
Definitely something to be proud of.
Shadow_Banned
Barron what team do you root for
Captain-Judge99
Hey heard Alex Verdugo could be available. Jonathan India for Verdugo seems like a great deal for both teams.
ohyeadam
Blue Jays and mariners most likely imo. A Woo or Miller for India + prospects deal could be a nice win/win
westcasey
I think this path is the best option for the 2 teams involved.
Joel P
Yeah I like that. Woo is from the Seattle area I think Miller is the guy to be traded.
toycannon
Miller for India. Get it done, Jerry.
dshires4
Woo is from California…
marinersblue96
No shot India could land either Woo or Miller. His regression and injury history are major red flags and this 2 are elite prospects (Miller was an All star last year) who showed that MLB wasn’t too big for them last year.
I could see Emerson Hancock straight up for India.
Joel P
Miller was not an all star last year. He had an ERA over 4. Seattle is a pitchers park his road ERA was over 5.
Ban Jacob Nix. He knew Lindsey Hill was lying.
Emerson Hancock might be the best out of Hancock, Woo, Miller.
India straight up for Woo
Or
India and a prospect 10-20 (Rece Hinds had a nice AA season) for Miller
Makes sense.
You can also get a little wild and do a mega trade.
Kirby or Gilbert for India +, say 1 of Marte or Arroyo, 1 of Lowder or Phillips, Collier, Jorge, and Hinds
Woo and Miller for India, Lodolo +
stymeedone
Agreed! The projections for India are ridiculous. You might trade a decent prospect starter for an average 2B with 3years of control, but giving a proven at the majors pitcher with TOR potential and more than 3 years of control for that return would be foolish. Detroit isn’t trading Skubal for such a light return, and I doubt Seattle would accept that for Woo.
Joel P
Woo and Skubal aren’t in the same zip code when it comes to talent.
Ban Jacob Nix. He knew Lindsey Hill was lying.
Potential is a fancy word that means you still suck right now.
Woo – 4.21 ERA / 4.36 FIP
Miller 4.36 ERA / 3.98 FIP
They’re back end starters until they prove otherwise.
What they have going for them currently is they’re cheap back end starters. Instead of paying a guy 6 7 10 mill whatever the price is they’re cheap for 4 or 5 years before arbs accumulate.
Motor City Beach Bum
Stymedone hit the nail on the head. If Cincy wants Skubal they getter be ready to throw India, Marte and someone else the Tigers way. I won’t be surprised if he gets some Cy Young awards this year.
JJBird
They were both rookies who played half season or less. Both are presently ‘back end’ starters in Seattle, but both have high ceilings.
Blue Baron
@Motor City Beach Bum: There’s only one Cy Young award he would be eligible for this year.
outinleftfield
Woo scouting grades –
Fastball: 60. Slider: 55. Changeup: 50. Control: 55. Overall: 55
Both MLB and BA agreed on him.
Compare that to Rhett Lowder
mlb.com/prospects/reds/rhett-lowder-695076
BobbyAyala94
Potential isn’t irrelevant- upside has value. Miller has about 130 innings of MLB experience and Woo has less than 90. I wouldn’t be shocked if one of them improves significantly in their second or third year. India has 1500 PA’s in the majors. We pretty much know what he is – would be pretty surprising if he suddenly becomes a star.
Motor City Beach Bum
I kissed a word in there. Should have read Cy Young votes. My bad.
Ban Jacob Nix. He knew Lindsey Hill was lying.
“Until they proved otherwise”
Woo played 18 games.
Miller played 25 games.
We will see how they do once the hitters have tape and data on them.
They could have high ceilings they could be the next Luis Patino. India could rebound and regain his form. Could get worse and forget how to hit. Both teams are assuming risk in a deal.
outinleftfield
You do realize that their stats, both ERA and FIP, were better than league average? League average was 4.45 ERA and 4.42 FIP.
fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&lg…
By definition, being better than average means you don’t suck.
steelerbravenation
In what world was Miller an All Star. I don’t think India gets him & I am not saying Miller will never be an All Star but last year he wasn’t.
This one belongs to the Reds
All these pitchers above are still unproven. No reason to deal for other unproven pitchers when the Reds have plenty of their own.
The only way the Reds make a deal with proven major leaguer(s) at this point is if you can land an ace. Period.
Sorry to burst the bubble of a lot of dream deals for other team’s fans.
stymeedone
You’re probably correct, but India isn’t getting a TOR starter in return. That would take De La Rosa.
This one belongs to the Reds
Reading is a skill. No one said he would be the only one in the deal.
Truth is they have so many infield prospects in the pipeline it’s ridiculous, and no way they all are going to play. They should have pulled off something by the deadline, and honestly they should have before the break when they needed pitching help.
I don’t think Po Boy knows how to bring in legitimate major league talent, only prospects.
This one belongs to the Reds
None of those infield prospects are above AA, but the White Sox for one would be ok with that.
dshires4
The Reds lack any real impact pitching though. 3 of their top 10 are pitchers; Petty is an iniury history nightmare, Lowder hasn’t thrown a professional inning, and Phillips has 20 MLB innings under his belt. The Reds would stand to gain a top arm in the system with MORE experience and innings than all of their guys have: combined.
xcfan
That would be awful for Seattle. A healthy Dylan Moore paired with Josh Rojas will outperform India. No need to giveaway needed controlled starting pitchers.
BaseballisLife
Since India has no value in trade, those would have to be high value prospects to get Woo or Miller.
Who did you have in mind? Lowder? Arroyo?
Joel P
If India has no value they won’t trade him.
outinleftfield
India has no value in trade without prospects being attached.
The last two seasons he has been a below average hitter with a 97 OPS+, played really bad defense with a -21 DRS and -16 OAA, and only started 188 games in the field over 2 seasons due to injuries.
Joel P
He’s not a natural 2b he’s a 3b who got moved to 2b because the Reds were leading the league in big league 3b at the time he was ready to play. And 3b is a more valuable defensive position. I would try him at 3b and if that doesn’t work he could be moved to 1b. And those are both positional needs for the Mariners.
An average hitter isn’t bad it’s average.
stymeedone
Which is why he would return an average pitcher, not a TOR, back.
Joel P
Miller and Woo appear to be average pitchers. Ones with not much of a track record. Hancock could make sense too.
BaseballisLife
If he is a natural 3B then that would explain why he hasn’t played a game at the position since 2019.
Even back then he was really bad at it.
Joel P
No he was not bad at 3b. They moved him off of 3b because they already had Suarez plus Senzel was a 3b and I believe there was another guy I am forgetting. They didn’t move him because he was bad they moved him because they needed a 2b and had too many 3b.
outinleftfield
Why would the Reds get an average pitcher in return for a below average position player?
Joel P
You are bending stats to try and say India is below average. He’s not you just made that up.
outinleftfield
What part of below average do you not understand?
2022-2023
97 OPS+ = below average (100 would be average)
1.1 WAR total = below average (4.0 total would be average)
– 21 DRS = below average (0 would be average)
-16 OAA = below average (0 would be average)
His range is bottom 8% in MLB. That is below average.
His arm is bottom 15% in MLB. That is below average
Offense, defense, WAR are all below average.
India is a below average player.
Joel P
Again you are stat bending to try to win the internet.
Why are you only looking at the last 2 years and not his career?
Since when is a 4 win player average???
He’s really not a 2b. I have explained that to you already. He’s a corner infielder 3b or 1b.
BaseballisLife
He hasn’t played a single game at 3B since 2019 and he was terrible then. He is obviously not a 3B.
Joel P
He was not terrible at 3b that’s not true. He only moved off of 3b because the Reds had Suarez and needed a 2b. They moved Senzel off of 3b and basically ruined his career. They haven’t done India any favors either.
outinleftfield
Lowder has a similar scouting grade as Woo. Probably too much to attach just to get rid of India.
The Reds would have to attach someone that is highly rated. I could see it taking Phillips or Collier plus a middle range prospect. .
EnglishM
M’s have been linked with India for at least a couple of years but just can’t see why. Below par defense and not exactly lights out with the bat. Yes he’s got years of control, but don’t see how he offers more than even Rojas at this stage.
If Woo are Miller are dealt you’d expect it to be for a lot more than him.
dshires4
I want the Mariners to snag him.
Harry074
Tigers would trade Manning for India. Maybe even throw in a high pitching prospect.
YourDreamGM
Al back as gm?
stymeedone
Worse, HARRIS!
Skiiggy
Harris is already a better GM than Al if only because of the fact that Harris made more upgrades to the player development staff in one year than Avila made in five. It took Al seven seasons to realize that he needed to invest heavily in PD. Harris has his problems, but he is nowhere near the bumbling incompetency of Avila.
stymeedone
Agree to disagree. Al brought in Fetters, and completely redid the minors two years ago. HARRIS has now brought in his people. Too soon to say better or worse on his changes. Al was terrible at FA signings, especially finding healthy pitchers. His drafting was solid, as the vast majority of the current team, and near term prospects, like Keith, Madden, Dingler, are from his watch. And he could complete a trade.
Parker_MotorCity 7
His drafting was not solid. There was a reason this farm system was so poor and had no depth. The player development system was garbage almost his entire tenure. Avila was one of the most incompetent executives in baseball and had absolutely no plan.
Motor City Beach Bum
I think the Tigers should dangle Manning. I like India more than a lot of people do, but targeting one of their younger IF might work better for being competitive in the long term. Maybe grab someone for SS because Baez sure doesn’t seem like the long term solution. They even have the pitching to grab a couple IF prospects from Cincy.
TrillionaireTeamOperator
What about a straight up swap of Thairo Estrada (back) to the Yankees for Gleyber to the Giants?
golfernut
Not everything is above the Yankees
This one belongs to the Reds
Not everything is about them either.
Blue Baron
Not everything is about the Reds, either.
And which one belongs to the Reds?
Tigers3232
This is about potential trade partners for India a Reds player. So yes everything about this situation involves the Reds.
RedLegJason
This article is about the Reds so go find an article where they’re talking about the Yankees and comment there.
YourDreamGM
Yankees better extend Gleyber since he is so freaking awesome.
sacball
lol Giants giving up two additional years of control for…Torres? Can I have whatever you’re smoking??
steelerbravenation
How bout Gleybar to the Giants for Yaz ?? Fills holes for both teams.
sacball
What hole does Gleybar fill for the Giants?
steelerbravenation
A legit 2B that plays everyday
Has Estrada played a whole season ever ???
He is the epitome of a super utility guy
Bobcastelliniscat
Jonathon India will be the latest fan favorite the Reds will ship off. India is due to get $3.5 million in arbitration this winter. That means he must be traded. The Castellinis want a team full of players making league minimum.
This one belongs to the Reds
This is the only reason you trade a team leader. Like when the Reds dealt Tony Perez, some deals have an affect on the team chemistry that casual fans and management not in the clubhouse do not foresee.
YourDreamGM
3.5 is nothing. They trade him because he isn’t a strong defender, they have other guys, and he needs to go anyways to keep the contention rolling.
Bobcastelliniscat
Take a look at the Red’s payroll and see how many on the roster is making $3.5 Million.
Bobcastelliniscat
The only other player earning $3.5 million on the Reds payroll is Ken Griffey Jr.
YourDreamGM
So the reds never lost a player to free agency or paid anyone more than 3 million. They really are cheap.
BaseballisLife
Hunter Greene
Big whiffa
GM has the right of this. He’s an expendable asset with good value right now. He needs to go. It’s also a sellers market for position players.
Reds can also reset the clock to open their window a little wider. Land some one like Miller from Sea and you will get a couple more years of control
Aaron Sapoznik
There’s no doubt that the White Sox could benefit from the addition of 2B Jonathan India. Trading Dylan Cease to the Reds in a package deal is less likely considering Chicago would also need young starting pitching talent back in any return.
Second base has been a gaping hole for the White Sox since they traded Nick Madrigal to the Cubs. That said, the biggest deficiency on their MLB roster and at the upper levels of their farm system is starting pitching. The departure of Cease leaves only erratic Michael Kopech left as a sure bet for their 2024 rotation.
The ChiSox need arms more than anything else this offseason, particularly if they plan on contending in the weak AL Central. White Sox fans also know that the team is unlikely to get any help at the top end of a strong starting pitching free agent market, not with Jerry Reinsdorf holding the purse strings.
This one belongs to the Reds
Unless they get a legit ace, there is no real reason to trade India, outside the fact he is eligible for arbitration and Bob is being cheap.
roiste
There’s no reason to keep him either. The dude is an average bat who sucks on defense; Cinci has a long list of young infielders with much more upside and a comparable floor to him.
rondon
First off, the Sox would need solid pitching in addition to India to even consider that trade. Cease has much more value than India.
YourDreamGM
Average to above average dh doesn’t bring back a ace.
Big Hurt
An ace??? For India?? Wow. Anyway, this is the 2nd time in a couple days that mlbtr has dramatically underestimated Cease’s value. Cease is a 44 on trade simulator, India is worth 7. A legitimate trade would be Cease for India, Abbott and Connor Phillips.
No, that won’t happen, but that’s Cease’s value, not “India is an intriguing piece to build a package around.” He’s a throw in to a much bigger set of players.
steelerbravenation
White Sox interested in cutting salary ???
Be cause if so I could see the Braves takings Cease & Benatendi off the white Sox hands.
Grissom
Anderson
Elder
Shewmake
Ritchie
Gives White Sox a top 2B prospect
A bridge SS until their prospect is ready & then moving to a utility role
A young SP with years of control
A former top pitching prospect coming off injury
A top 5 organizational prospect
Takes $54 million off the books from a player that was disappointing his first year into the contract.
Big Hurt
I might take that deal.
Joel P
The White Sox need good young players with many years of team control left. Not India.
Biggie22
Matt McLain is better than India in virtually every area & plays his preferred position.. India says he does not want to play OF…. McLain, Elly, & Marte are the present & the future of this franchise…
There’s a ton to blame & complain about regarding Reds ownership; trading India with the composition of this Roster would not be one of them…
This one belongs to the Reds
Unless Elly learns to cut down on that swing and have better plate discipline, his future is murky.
earmbrister
EDLC needs to play every day in MLB. So do Marte, McLain, CES, and Steer. Maybe you can move one of them to the OF, and that one is Steer. There’s no real spot for India and you might as well move him for pitching (perhaps with some minor league prospects).
Biggie22
India would be just a starter for a Cease package….
Degaz
I would do India plus say Lyon Richardson for Cease. Would not give up Phillips, Lowder or Petty
Joel P
Why would the White Sox trade Cease for India?????
Biggie22
I’m a reds fan & I think it be a lot more than that for Cease …. I’d guess it would take at least India; Edwin Arroyo (top 100 prospect) & another solid pitching prospect…. The advantage of India is he’s under control though 2026 so he can theoretically help now & in the future if you’re looking at a reset/rebuild
Joel P
It simply makes no sense for the White Sox to trade 2 years of Cease for 3 years of India. That 1 extra year of team control isn’t going to help them rebuild the White Sox need prospects. Guys with 6 plus years of control.
Biggie22
That’s why I said he’d just be a starter…. Think it would take several other prospects in a package.. But let’s not forget; he’s just a few years removed from being rookie of the year & has shown lots of offensive upside for extended periods.. If he has a hot first half (like this year) you could always flip him for more prospects. It’s not like Cease is coming off a CY young year either….
Joel P
I am not saying the value is wrong I am saying the White Sox don’t need India they need prospects with many years of team control left. If they trade Cease it will be for prospects not India.
YourDreamGM
If they trade Cease there is zero use for India.
stymeedone
The White Sox aren’t planning on contending, but they do say they are to the press to sell tickets.
iml12
The white Sox need 3-4 sp, an entire middle infield, catcher, and an outfielder. The good news is they should have at least 10-15 million to spend this off-season. They should trade everything not bolted down
Rebuild it
Grissom from the Braves to the Mariners for pitching seens like another viable option. Of course other pieces would have to be involved
SeibuLionsNPB
Not sure how well the Braves line up for the Mariners. The Braves top prospects besides Grissom are mostly pitching. ATL needs a LF and I’m unsure of anyone besides Kelenic that would be ready to start for a win now Braves team. The Mariners might would be intrigued in a trade including Grissom and some lower tiered pitching prospects, but would they trade Kelenic. The Braves obviously could be interested in some of the Mariners major league ready pitching, but is Grissom and prospects enough to get any of the available arms?
steelerbravenation
Braves could use a young SP as well.
Stevil
I don’t think Seattle would be interested in Grissom. They appear to be set with Rojas platooned with one of their many RHHs who can play 2B.
Slider_withcheese
The white Sox need to continue to tear it down. They are already on record as saying they are going to reduce payroll, and with Moncada making 24 + million accounting for almost 1/4 of their payroll, they should look to trade him. They’d also get a haul for Roberts (especially at the trade deadline) but he’s not going anywhere.
Aaron Sapoznik
The White Sox front office is also on record as saying they are not going to undertake another tear-down rebuild coming off their most recent one. It also makes sense considering their owner will be 88 in January and is likely to sell the team sooner rather than later.
Apparently the White Sox would rather return to their “mired in mediocrity” approach than do the most sensible thing in MLB’s weakest division, try and freaking win it regardless of the cost.
Stevil
If there’s one thing I’ve consistently preached, it’s that there are no guarantees in baseball. But it’s a safe bet that the Mariners wouldn’t have any interest in India for Woo, Miller, or Hancock.
They have 3 other RHHs to platoon 2B with Rojas: Moore, Haggerty, and Caballero. Cabby alone had half the number of PAs India had and was worth a full win more in fWAR than India. All three offer better defense as well.
Seattle also has Bliss lurking in AAA. He is almost certainly going to debut in 2024.
For now, it’s most likely going to be a platoon of Rojas with one of Moore/Haggerty/Cabby. Seattle may actually trade one of those three RHHs because Bliss is so close.
Point is, they absolutely don’t need India. Seattle isn’t a great fit.
Joel P
Moore isn’t that good and he plays outfield as well as infield. Haggerty isn’t that good and he’s more of an outfielder. Caballero looks good but is unproven. Suarez is a soon to be free agent. France might not come back.
India was originally a 3b. He didn’t play 2b because that was his best defensive position he did so because the Reds were staked with 3b back when he first came up.
Mariners need offense. They need everyday position players. Simply replacing Hernandez with a new outfielder doesn’t move the needle.
BaseballisLife
If the Mariners need offense, India is not the answer.
Stevil
Don’t hold you’re breath waiting for this to happen, Joel!
Joel P
The Mariners need to do something. Spending money is always simple and easy but that’s not the Mariners style. They probably would have made the playoffs this year if they didn’t trade their closer away. At some point you gotta play to win.
muskie73
Indeed the Seattle Mariners hope to improve on their 2023 team OPS+ of 106 and their team ERA+ of 109.
BobbyAyala94
@Stevil – I agree with this – Caballero might be a better all around player than India already. I’d rather see what him or Bliss or Cole Young can do than give up young controllable pitching for what would be a minor offensive upgrade at best.
Joel P
Bliss and Young aren’t ready yet. Caballero is unproven and can play multiple positions. Suarez is on his way out the door. France might be non tendered. And you need 5 good infielders to cover the 4 spots on the infield.
The Mariners need help on offense. Replacing Hernandez with another outfielder doesn’t make the offense better so how do the Mariners get better on offense in 2024?
BobbyAyala94
They do need offense but India isn’t that much better than what they have, so why give up young controllable pitching for him? Bliss might be ready, he’s 24 and coming off a big year in AAA. Caballero is coming off a really solid year. India is ok, I wouldn’t mind trading for him, I just wouldn’t give up Woo or Miller or Hancock for him without something else good coming back with him.
Joel P
India is a proven player. Miller and Woo aren’t anything special they are ordinary pitchers on a team that has a lot of pitching.
Pretty sure without looking it up trade values says Miller for India is fair. They are an unbiased source.
BobbyAyala94
Well you might want to look it up because it’s not even close.
Joel P
Yeah it isn’t that close. I think they are underrating India and overrating Woo and Miller. They have Woo and Miller above Young and Kelenic that doesn’t seem right to me.
steelerbravenation
Yeah sometimes it’s better to look it up before letting the fingers type
BobbyAyala94
I agree I wouldn’t take that site as gospel – but Miller has more team control and a higher ceiling imo, so I do think he’s more valuable than India.
BaseballisLife
India is a proven below average player the last 2 seasons. MLB pitching adjusted to his tendencies but he has not been able to adjust. He is just not very good.
Stevil
Right, Moore isn’t good, and Woo & Miller aren’t anything special…
Have a nice Sunday, Joel.
Joel P
To steelerbravenation
Who the heck are you? I wasn’t talking to you. I looked it up and yes it’s not fair according to them but I disagree. If India only has 7 million in surplus value the Reds wont trade him.
Joel P
Woo and Miller have average stats pitching at a pitcher friendly ballpark. That’s not terribly exciting. Could they improve? Sure but they could just as easily take a step backwards.
Maybe Hancock is the best fit for a trade. But the Mariners don’t have a lot of pitching depth.
steelerbravenation
You’re comparing a platoon of Moore & Rojas or throw in Haggarty/Cabby to India and say they don’t need him ?
I am not saying they need him but they need someone
SeaLVLA
The Mariners do need offense. They likely need 2/3 significant upgrades offensively. The more significant move isn’t likely coming as a free agent. (It rarely ever does) What they have to trade is from their young controlled starters. India doesn’t move the needle. The more significant move might take Miller or Woo and something like Gabriel and Berroa in a bigger, more significant move. It wouldn’t make sense to trade one of the starters you’d be willing to move for just India. Then what? The M’s can live with Rojas/Cabby another year (until one of the middle infielders in the minors is ready)if they upgraded corner outfielder, DH and perhaps 1B. India doesn’t do that.
Stevil
Jerry Dipoto was pretty clear that the team is looking to add contract to the lineup, which is part of the reason they’re letting Teo walk.
The holes in the lineup are right field and DH, but if they’re really serious about cutting down the Ks, they should be open to a new left fielder and third baseman as well. For the record, I’m not expecting that.
I don’t think we’ll see Seattle trade Gonzalez. But they have so many infield prospects, perhaps one of them could be traded as well as, or in place of, a pitcher.
SeaLVLA
Agreed that they should be open to a new left fielder and third baseman. Also agreed not to expect that.
My gut tells me that the starter the M’s deal (assuming the likelihood they do) could very well be used (along with a few other minor league pieces) for the larger deal….a Randy Arozarena-type deal. That would be #1. A likely free agent would be a Jorge Solar/Lourdes Gurriel type. There’s the Teo clearing salary. This would be a good winter. Add, perhaps, another starter so as not to HAVE to rely on Hancock or Gonzalez (who would be better depth IMO, the 2) and this would be a productive winter. What say you, Stevil? Thoughts?
Stevil
No doubt Seattle would love to have Arozarena, but I don’t think he’s available. He’d be an excellent fit, I’ll say that.
When I mentioned Gonzalez not being available, I was referring to Gabriel. Marco Gonzales probably isn’t likely to be traded either, and I would argue he’s Seattle’s best option for a number 5 starter right now. Seattle doesn’t have a ton of SP depth, but right now it would Castillo, Gilbert, Kirby, Marco and one of Miller/Woo. So, Hancock and Miller or Woo would be the depth. That doesn’t sound bad, but you can bet they’ll likely sign another SP or two for Tacoma (if not the active roster).
It wouldn’t be surprising to see Seattle sign Soler or Gurriel, But I really hope the Mariners aim higher. Easy to see them interested in Wilmer Flores and/or JD Davis for an infield corner or DH role.
This one belongs to the Reds
This should be a big warning sign to Reds fans. What about when the others hit their arbitration years?
Biggie22
lol as stated above there’s a ton to blame & complain about with Reds ownership…. Trading India absolutely would not be one of them based on the composition of this team…. McLain > India
Bobcastelliniscat
This one belongs to the Reds is right. Trading India has nothing to do with playing time, it’s entirely driven by money.
earmbrister
Wrong. It has nothing to do with money. With Marte, EDLC, McLain, CES, and Steer there is absolutely no room for India. And $3.5 MM is nothing to any team’s roster. The Reds need pitching more than additional IF depth.
This one belongs to the Reds
McLain also missed significant time his rookie season. Is that a trend or not? You don’t know right now, but why weaken an area of strength until you find out? Otherwise you are scrambling to fill holes if it is a trend.
Degaz
I mean like it or not this is how small market clubs with small payrolls survive and are competitive. The Brewers, Indians, Rays have been doing this for years.
titanic struggle
The plan is to buy out some of those arbitration years on specific players. At this point, I would try (I know, the Boras effect) to throw some money at McClain, Abbott, and possibly CES. It’s also part of the plan to deal those pricier players to keep the talent machine grinding along. It’s not an ideal situation for the fans, I completely agree with that.
Bobcastelliniscat
Can you cite your source that’s it’s the plan?
titanic struggle
It’s not a mystery. It’s been well documented that the Reds intend on modeling teams like the Rays, which is exactly what they do. They simply can’t afford to sign them all, so they deal them with a couple of years with arbitration eligibility left for more prospects.
YourDreamGM
They will either gladly pay them or trade them for a nice return of prospects.
redsorbust
Pretty sure the rumors about Reds possibly trading India does not have anything to do with arbitration. Reds back up catcher Maile will make basically what India will make thru arbitration. It has to do with the fact he is redundant at his position and Reds have cheaper and as good as or better players to take his place.
This one belongs to the Reds
Last year happened mainly because of the leadership of guys like India and Friedl.
Take that away and you may not like the results.
Would the Cardinals have dealt Yadi Molina when his offense sucked some years due to injury also? I think not.
Good GMs know what really goes on in the clubhouse as well as in the field.
It’s not always about stats.
Biggie22
Reds or bust I Wish I could like this 1,000 times
desertball
Dodgers / Mariners are clear fits but I believe Dipoto will make the move while the Dodgers watch trying to maximize the return. They’ll make the next move on their list but it’s not their 1st option. I think it’s India / Burnes but they’ll end up with Adames / Cease.
Biggie22
Always thought the Tigers Jason Foley would make a good trade piece for India…. Tigers have shown in the past they don’t always value BP arms & India just feels like a solid blue collar grinder type of player that would fit well with Tigers…
Skiiggy
I can’t really see either team jumping at that honestly. Tigers want to try out Colt Keith and Jace Jung at 2B and 3B this year in addition to some other lesser prospects down the pipe. They also believe that Foley can be much more than what he is now. For the Reds, they would probably want a bona fide closer for someone like India. While Foley is a good 8th inning guy, he’s not quite a proven closer. Just doesn’t seem like an ideal fit for either team.
Motor City Beach Bum
I like India and think he would fit well on the Tigers. He can fill the gap at 3B while Keith plays 2B. They shouldn’t trade Foley for India but as part of a package I’d be good. Foley, Manning and a minor leaguer for India, Arroyo and Sal Stewart. India fills in 2b/3b short term, Arroyo replaces Baez eventually and Stewart can slot in at 3B or elsewhere (his bat plays).
Biggie22
Oh I like this a lot & think it’s pretty pretty reasonable both ways
Tiger22matt
Yes the Reds should just give away top prospects for your average players lmao. Stop trying to fleece the Reds. Your not getting 2 top 5 prospects plus India for average pitchers.
Motor City Beach Bum
If you think Foley and Manning are average maybe you need to check their stats this year. I also said in addition to them a minor league pitcher would be included, which leaves the door pretty wide open to even things out. The Reds are not going to get proven major leaguers or an ace just for unproven minor leaguers which is what Stewart and Arroyo are. How many guys kick ass in the minors and only ever end up as AAAA players? As many others have pointed out India’s value is not what it was. Pitching is worth more in the current market. If I’m the Reds I just wait a year because in my opinion their young pitchers will catch up by then. If they don’t want to wait then pony up.
Tiger22matt
The Reds would be better off keeping India rather than getting fleeced. 2 top 5 prospects and India for 2 bottom of the rotation arms is crazy.
Motor City Beach Bum
Foley is a relief pitcher. I guess no one will get a sniff at India in your estimation unless they give up someone like Soto or maybe Cole and Volpe? Watch and see what they end up trading him for. Pitching costs dude.
octavian8
The Reds already have pitching “prospects”. I would rather see a more veteran pitcher added to the rotation even if it means throwing in Benson or Fraley.
raulp
Hard to tell but I foresee the Reds hanging on to India at 2B as the team’s flagship, and moving McLain to SS and EDLC to 3B, with other young pieces as Marte, CES or Steer moving to OF or in the trading block.
YourDreamGM
You don’t keep the nearest to free agency most expensive worst defender.
This one belongs to the Reds
McLain and Marte are actually your best shottstops defensively. Elly played better at 3B than shortstop.
titanic struggle
Indy will go before any of Marte, CES, or Steer do.. you can bank on that!
jdgoat
Even though India is a pretty good fit for Toronto, I don’t think they’ll match up too great in trade talks. They just don’t have the pitching depth to be trading anything that Cincinnati would want. I also don’t know how much interest the current front office would have in India. As good as his bat can be, they’ve shown they’re more interested in improving the defense and prioritizing run prevention, which he would probably impact negatively.
Dutch
Plantar fasciitis scares me. Recovery is hard and often comes back. He’s young so hopefully that’s not the case with him but I would be wary to give much up as an armchair GM.
This one belongs to the Reds
True, it is scary and a hard recovery. Many are complaining about India the last two seasons and not taking the injuries into account. But that’s how stat boys operate.
CardsFan57
I could say the same about Carlson. It still doesn’t help the trade value.
This one belongs to the Reds
It is foolish to trade a player with three years of team control anyway unless it is part of a deal for the ace pitcher you need. Two years from now, it is a different story.
Otherwise as Cat said it is only about one thing.
raulp
To make things even more difficult for the FO, his current trade value is next to nothing after two consecutive subpar seasons, several injuries and very low defensive ratings. Perhaps they should hold onto him for next season, expect a healthy and strong comeback and look to swap him at deadline.
Big whiffa
The names he’s linked too don’t line up with your point. Plus it’s a sellers market which is equal to his past seasons production when it comes to importance. Reds will be moving him this off-season
redsorbust
I would disagree that his value is next to nothing. From what I read many GM’S have inquired about him. However holding on to him to the trade deadline is risky. Reds are in unique (for them) situation of success and genuine contention for at least a division win. There is a trade out there for India or India + if it addresses the area of most need for the Reds and that is SP and RP. If he is healthy his defense might/should get better and has enough at bats as a starter number I could see him .260+ 15-20 HR and 15-20 stolen bases. Of course time will tell what ends up happening to him but he does have an upside and other intangibles that give him value.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Red Sox? We need a second baseman or shortstop, depending on where Story fills that ticket.
Give em Verdugo and/or Dalbec and throw in a prospect and we’ll be on our way. Not sure if it’s worth the while but it’s a possibility
whyhayzee
Booby Dalbec fits the profile of virtually every single Yankees prospect. As did the now legendary Blake Swihart. The two teams should have an exchange program. Your overrated guy for our overrated guy. Gone are the days of Baylor for Easler. Sigh.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Dalbec isn’t overrated, he’s just not that good. We should have traded him 2 years ago when his value was high.
Big whiffa
Did you know there’s other teams considering india too ? If verdugo is the prize – sox won’t crack top 10 for suitors. Bello gets to done tonight however
ellisburks
It also gets Breslow fired before he starts his job. Bello is worth WAY more than India.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
They’re not trading Bello and I honestly think you’re asking way too much. When I mentioned Verdugo, I didn’t mean just him, which is why I provided other options (prospects). I’m not the guy pulling the trigger, I just know we don’t need Verdugo and he’s on the trading block and can be paired in another deal. But I don’t think you’ll get a gold mine for India either.
TennVol
The Jays could be a good fit if the front office does not believe that a platoon effort of Schneider and Biggio would work. The Jays could even offer up Kikucci who had a sneaky really good year for the Jays. But only has 1yr left on his contract. Kikucci and Espinal for India might be a possibility depending on if the Reds wanted an infielder back in the package.
coachsixstring
Sounds like the Reds need a seasoned, clubhouse backstop to work with their pitchers and encourage their hitters. #iykyk
CardsFan57
Average bat with a very much below average glove. They could have gotten a lot after his rookie year. They aren’t getting much after the last two years.
l9ydodger
Same can be said for Carlson, Burleson, Donovan, O’Neal, Edman and probably Nootbar.
CardsFan57
Burleson is the only one that can be said for. Carlson, Donovan, O’Neill, Edman and Nootbaar all have excellent defense. Three of them have gold gloves to show for it. Two of them play high level defense at 5 or more positions. You have to have a good glove if you’re going to have an average bat.
BaseballisLife
The question is not who is the best fit, its why would any team trade for him in the first place.
India has put up a 1.1 WAR total in the 2 seasons since his ROY season. He has not hit well nor fielded 2B well. Unless the team is imcredibly desperate, there is no reason to give up anything of value to acquire India.
India has little to no value in trade. He is a hard pass.
Appalachian_Outlaw
I’m a little more bullish on India’s future potential than you might be… ?
I agree, he doesn’t get traded though. Any team with interest will be looking to buy low. It makes no sense to pay a premium for a player with question marks. The Reds will probably listen, but I can’t imagine they want to sell low on India either.
BaseballisLife
Two straight seasons of poor play means all they can do is sell low. He has little if any trade value.
If they want to hang onto India for another season and play him regularly in the hopes he rebounds then maybe they can trade him for something of value.
But if he rebounds why trade him?
I.M. Insane
Red Sox make perfect sense, but I don’t see Cincinnati being interested in Pivetta. More likely Houck and another pitcher plus Verdugo.
BaseballisLife
You are truly insane. India has no value in trade.
sosaspelledbackwardsisasos
India would close the revolving door for the Pirates at 2B and give them an extremely formidable IF (assuming they land a halfway decent 1B).
hiflew
I still believe India is more valuable to the Reds by staying instead of being traded. His team leadership is not going to be accounted for in trade value, but will be very hard to replace. Especially with Votto also exiting. I think they would be better off trading one of Elly, McLain, or Marte while they still maintain their high prospect trade value.
To put it a different way, with India you would have to include prospects to get a good starter. With one of the other three, it could either be 1 for 1 or you could receive prospects along with them. Do the math.
padam
Wouldn’t mind seeing him in a Mets uniform. McNeil is a utility player and not sure if Mauricio would be suited for 2B as opposed to OF or DH. India would fit in nicely between Nimmo and Lindor. Speed, pop, good on the base paths.
baseballteam
How will he do out of a hitter’s ballpark? Pls see: Trevor Story.
CardsFan57
India’s home/away spits are only slightly better at home.
baseballteam
Rotowire says OPS .819 at home .679 away.
outinleftfield
Here is his career splits – baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=india…
Here is last season – baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=india…
CardsFan57
I was looking at career. I think it’s more reliable when worrying about home and away.
baseballteam
Thanks.
Armaments216
India to the Nationals for Lane Thomas. The Reds need a right-handed OF bat. The Nationals need a 2B, and they have several OF prospects who Thomas will soon be blocking.
This one belongs to the Reds
That is the most sensible deal proposal I have seen so far.
outinleftfield
Lane Thomas was actually a worthwhile MLB player in 2023. India was not. Over the last 2 seasons he has put up 3.8 WAR more than India.
The Nationals non-tendered Robles so they are already short a starting OF and have no OF prospects that will impact the team prior to 2025.
That trade makes no sense for the Nationals.
Armaments216
The Nationals have not non-tendered Victor Robles. He’s still under team control. They just declined their 2024 option on Robles because it was above his likely arbitration salary.
They control Thomas for 2 more seasons via arbitration. India has 3 years of arbitration remaining, so they’d pick up an extra year of control, which probably better fits their competitive window, and fills a position where their system is much weaker.
outinleftfield
I thought he was non-tendered and had to look it up, so thank you for pointing that out. So the Nationals declined his $3.3 million option and will go to arbitration with him. He is expected to get at least $2.7 million in arbitration.
When it comes to Thomas vs India, India would need to have 4 more seasons under team control to provide the same amount of value as Thomas in 2.
geofft
While I don’t think the Mets will dive in here (they’ve got other priorities, and not enough prospect capital to give away), I also don’t agree that they are eliminated. The cold, hard reality (sorry, Mets’ fans) is that neither Mauricio or Baty is sure to even stay on the 26-man roster all year in ’24, let alone start regularly. They do need to being in another infielder of some sort for insurance. India at 2B allows them to let McNeil cover 3rd, or at least platoon there in the event that the youngsters don’t stick right away. If one of hem does stick, the Mets are still very shallow in the outfield, and McNeil can play there.
padam
Mets prospect depth? After the trade deadline I think they vaulted into the top 5, not including those that were called up this past year.
geofft
First off, that was top 5 overall. Much of the depth is at the lower levels. There is a small handful of high-end talent at the upper levels, But here, too, much of that talent is more than a year away and at positions where the Mets already have holes. So the prospect capital they do have is at positions where they need the talent.
Second, fans need to get a reality grip on what Baseball America rankings really mean. As per Ronal Blum, a baseball reporter for 30 years with both MLB.com and the AP, the rating is not based on what they believe the prospects WILL do. It is based on what they think the prospects CEILINGS are. The vast majority of prospects fall short of those ceilings. And, oh, yeah, BA is not actually right all of the time.
outinleftfield
Here is where the prospects in the MEts system are expected to start 2024.
Acuna – MLB
Gilbert – AA
Williams – AA
Mauricio – MLB
Parada – AA
mlb.com/prospects/mets/
That is not lower level.
Go further down and see that 10 of the remaining prospects on their top 30 are expected to start 2024 in AA or higher.
That doesn’t include guys like Baty, Vientos, Alvarez, and Butto that started 2023 as a top prospect in their system.
geofft
@outinleftfield: You are misinterpreting the MLB.com chart, for one thing. And there are about 180 to 200 players in each team’s minor league system. Five guys in the upper levels still does not constitute great depth. The upper levels are a bit top-heavy with a few good prospects, and mostly barren beyond that. Most of the better depth is at the lower levels.
The chart says “eta 2024”. That does not mean the start of 2024. It means at some point in 2024. Acuna seems most likely to start the season in AAA, and, given that he is a top talent and already on the 40-man roster anyway, would likely be one of the first call-ups in case of an injury or a need to demote another young player. Rosters are not locked up on opening day. Players move up and down all year long. Acuna has not played a game in AAA yet (and by the way, his hitting dropped off badly after coming over to the Mets. In all likelihood, the Mets are trying to change his approach, and he was still adjusting to those changes).
Also: the level listed is the level at which they are now. Acuna is listed as “MLB” because he is on the 40-man roster. Those players are regarded as major leaguers for a lot of administrative purposes, regardless of where they are actually playing. Drew Gilbert is currently classified as AA. But he’ clearly mastered that level last year. It would be an utter shock if he were to be sent back there for a second year, given his performance. .
Williams and Parada just barely started at AA, and have struggled there. They are likely in for an entire year at that level (or close to it).
And lastly, when I said the Mets lack the prospect capital to make trades, part of that was based on the fact that they have too many holes and need some of those prospects to fill those holes.
outinleftfield
I am interpreting it just fine. The Mets are the 11th ranked team according to MLB.com and 9th highest according to BA. That means they have depth.
Having 15 of the top 30 expected to start the next season in AA or higher means they are filled with close to MLB ready prospects. Which is exactly what BA had to say about their farm system in their end of season rankings.
Players are NOT listed as MLB because they are on the 40 man. Read what MLB has to say about that list and get back to me.
Your opinion of prospects means nothing to me. Do you know whose opinion matters? The Mets and the guys that are paid to give their opinion about prospects.
The Mets have very few holes. One OF and 3 starting pitchers. That is it. That you don’t realize that tells me all I need to know about the value of your opinion about baseball.
As my wife is fond of saying, B please.
outinleftfield
McNeil has started 26 games at 3B in his career. He has started 347 at 2B and is a plus defender there. McNeil is not moving to 3B to make room for someone that is horrible on defense like India.
Why would it be reality that Mauricio and Baty will not be starting in 2024? Both are expected to be on the opening day roster. My money would be on Mauricio being the starting 3B, because of his defense, but it Baty hits in spring training he could very well win the job. Mauricio played well in AAA and had just 100 AB in the majors. He played mostly SS in the minors, but also played 2B, 3B, and LF.
geofft
@outinleftfield: I did not say that they will not start. . I said that they are not sure to stick. I’m high on Mauricio’s future. But it may not be in April. Sticking in the majors is a cat-and-mouse game. Darling and Hernandez reference this often, but no one seems to hear it. The hitter hits for a while, the pitchers figure out how to slow him down or stop him, then the hitter has to adjust to what the pitchers are now doing – being able to make adjustments to your stance, plate coverage, approach, and pitch selection – is what keeps you in the majors. Go back and look closer at Mauricio’s splits and/or game logs: He hit well for two weeks, and poorly for two weeks. If the league’s pitchers could figure him out that quickly, then he’s still got some work to do. He may have the talent to make the adjustments at this level, or he may need to shuttle back & forth between AAA and the majors a couple of times before sticking. That is just how baseball works, and that is what happens to most prospects – even very good ones. Again, not sure why so many fans seem blind to that reality.
For the record, Mauricio was not a AAA hitting stud from start to finish last year,. He slumped poorly all of June an into July. Having followed all fo the Mets full-season minor leaguers very closely (daily) for 12 years, the ones who are ready to move up don’t typically slump for that long – they make the adjustments quickly.
Baty was in the majors for over 350 PAs and showed absolutely zero improvement. He has demonstrated that he currently lacks the ability to make adjustments to his hitting at this level. He was never in triple-A for more than three weeks at a time, so despite the very promising numbers, it was too small a sample size to be valid. We do not yet know whether or not he is too good for that level. Because it can take longer than that for the league to figure out a good hitting prospect. Subsequently, we also do not know if he knows how to make adjustments even at the AAA level. He’s never really had to make them through AA, so maybe thats something he still needs to learn at the AAA level.
I agree completely that McNeil belongs at second in the perfect scenario. But the Mets roster is so far from perfect right now. And there is a lot of talk, and even expectation of moving him o the OF, or using him as a superutility player next year.
I never said that I think the Mets should trade for India (In fact, I actually said that I don’t think they will). I’m just saying that they’re not eliminated from the possibility. They have other, more obvious holes and priorities on which to spend their time, money, and/or trade capital. I also don’t think they can possibly fill all of the holes for 2024, anyway. So they should be on a 2-year plan to fill what holes they can now, and the rest over the course of the next year. There are internal solutions for 2B/3B, even if those solutions may (MAY, not will) not be ready for 2024.
outinleftfield
Stupid AND unable to cut your babbling into paragraphs.
Akakak
India makes tonnes of sense as a candidate to add to the jays young core.
with his experience at both 2nd and 3rd he would make for a consistent at bat between all their infield platoon options.
He still very much has the potential to be a cornerstone piece.
Not sure what the jays have to offer besides manoah or tiedmann
Joel P
Jays really need left bats. Maybe they get India but they need lefty bats.
baseballteam
btw Mr. India should change his name to Jonathan Commander in order not to offend anyone.
Akakak
Thats a pretty good one
norcalblue
Strongly disagree with the analysis in this article regarding the Dodgers and India being a fit. Particularly because the pitchers proposed for consideration have far more value to the Dodgers and Friedman, than India. The Dodgers need starting pitching, and they need starting pitching depth. Anyone listening to Friedman and Gomes understands that they are much more focused on acquiring the kind of pitchers proposed as trade bait than picking up another 2B. Sorry, this just doesn’t make sense
Big whiffa
As a reds fan I strongly disagree too. Y’all can keep that overhyped group of non strike out throwing pitchers you got. There’s better trade partners out there
outinleftfield
All of those words when all that is needed is that India has been bad for two years and has no place on the Reds going forward. Since he has so little trade value its going to be hard to find a trade partner unless they are desperate.
So what teams are totally desperate at 2B or 3B? Not many if any and none are going to trade anything of value to the Reds unless the Reds include top prospects with India in the trade. Conclusion, the Reds are stuck with India.
2 paragraphs instead of 1000 words.
stymeedone
India has value, just for a mid rotation starter. He won’t bring back a TOR arm, or a young pitcher with high ceiling.
outinleftfield
No team is trading a mid rotation starter for a below average position player.
to4
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AlienBob
The Mariners have pitching which every team wants. Somebody is going to come up with a very strong offer for the M’s young pitchers. Else, I see the team hanging on to them. You can never have too much pitching depth.
kcmark
How about India for France?
Kassiedog
Anyone who says Woo and Miller are unproven and devalues them because they play in a pitchers park probably haven’t watched either of them pitch very much. It would be like saying “I wouldn’t trade Woo or Miller for Elly because he’s unproven and plays in a hitters park.” I’m obviously a Mariners fan and would be disgusted if either of them is traded for India.
chaneyb
India hasn’t posted a wRC+ over 100 since his rookie season, despite playing in a great hitter’s park. Fangraphs has him as a negative hitter, baserunner, and defender over the last two years. The Mariners would be better served holding onto their pitchers and starting Josh Rojas everyday. I’m not against dealing Woo or Miller for a real upgrade, but India isn’t it.
Overbrook
Hard to see India as a centerpiece for anyone of real value. The White Sox, in particular, should have little interest, as they need to improve their D.
SupremeZeus
India is a buy low candidate for any acquiring team. Seems the organization and fans likely value India much more than any analytically driven team. Probably staying put unless the reds FO can dupe one of the less analytically driven front offices. White Sox? Snicker…
Big whiffa
Analytics don’t take in consideration for current market value, or playing through injuries. But it’s the market condition that creates the real value for India. Reds will get more for him than you’ll ever consider bc of that and a team looking to take a chance on him staying healthy
MLBSCHMEMLB
Why deal a good young player with three years of control just because you have a lot of them? Injuries happen. I’ll never understand a small market team with a limited budget dealing young controllable players knowing if the injury bug hits you don’t have the money to replace them. The Reds have a lot of interesting young arms as well. Just keep India.
Kassiedog
This is a very reasonable take Schmem.
octavian8
Agreed Schemm. Unless we would get a great trade keep India. With the DH and the versatile infielders we have we can get plenty of time on the field and at bats to keep players fresh.for the long season. Get one veteran starting pitcher, a couple of bullpen arms and a power bat in the OF and let’s go.
Big whiffa
They get a great trade for him ! And they should get more controllable pieces instead of 1 year of a tor
titanic struggle
If I could add to that, they also have an infield stacked with multi-positional players. This was especially nice for Bell last season. I’d also like to see them keep India. Jus5 his presence alone is very valuable. He plays the game hard, and is the team leader they’ll need going forward without Joe.
YourDreamGM
Only so much playing time. Your injury replacements come from bench players and farm system. India is too good to sit back and wait for a injury to happen. Wouldn’t be fair to him either. They will figure it out and get him playing time but if anyone is willing to make a reasonable trade that would be best. 3 of their top 5 and 6 of top 10 prospects are infielders.
Tigersin2050
I thought about Tigers for India. I just don’t see him fitting what Harris is trying to do with the offense, though. If they did move him at all, I think the Mariners would make the most sense.
Mac Attack
India for Anderson? Rosario plays short. Go cover the Little League and gives us a jump on the 2031 draft
placido my polanco
Tigers should sign Tim Anderson or Whit Merrifield to play 2nd before giving up pitching for India. You can never have too much pitching…
Jjjj
As Reds fan I like to see India succeed elsewhere.