March 13: The Red Sox announced this morning that Giolito underwent an internal brace procedure to repair the UCL in his right elbow. That comes with a shorter recovery timetable than a full Tommy John surgery and will give the right-hander a chance to pitch the entire 2025 season if things go smoothly in his rehab. He’ll likely still miss the entire 2024 campaign, however.
March 11: Red Sox right-hander Lucas Giolito will undergo surgery on his right elbow tomorrow afternoon, per Pete Abraham of the Boston Globe and Sean McAdam of MassLive. It’s still unknown whether he will require a full Tommy John surgery or a brace procedure, but he’s ticketed for an extended absence either way.
It was reported last week that Giolito has a partial tear in his ulnar collateral ligament in his right arm as well as a strain of his flexor tendon. A decision had not yet been made on the path forward, with the club sending Giolito for a second opinion. After gathering further information, it now seems that it will be necessary for him to go under the knife. Giolito previously underwent Tommy John surgery as a prospect back in 2012.
It seems that some of the details of the procedure will be worked out on the operating table, as the medical team will assess the level of damage in his elbow once they get in there and then decide on the best path forward. Either way, Giolito seems slated to miss the entirety of the 2024 season. A brace procedure is a relatively new alternative to Tommy John that can come with shorter recovery times, but even those rehab windows are in the ballpark of a year.
It’s a devastating blow for both Giolito and the Red Sox. The righty posted excellent results from 2019 to 2021 with the White Sox, with a 3.47 earned run average in that time. He struggled in 2022, with his ERA bumping to 4.90, but seemed to be bouncing back in the first half of last year.
He had a 3.79 ERA through 21 starts as he approached the open market and seemed to be trending towards being one of the top free agents of the 2023-24 offseason. He was traded to the Angels but then saw his performance dip again. He had a 6.89 ERA in six starts for the Halos as that club fell out of contention and put him on waivers. The Guardians put in a claim but then Giolito had a 7.04 ERA in six starts for that club.
As recently as last summer, he seemed to be trending towards a nine-figure mega deal but instead limped into free agency with little momentum behind him. He settled for a two-year, “prove it” deal with the Red Sox, netting a guarantee of $38.5MM. He also secured an opt-out in that deal so that he could return to free agency if he posted better results in 2024.
That now won’t happen and Giolito will stay on Boston’s books through 2025. The club came into this winter looking to bolster their rotation but ended up being fairly inactive in that department. They did sign Giolito but also flipped Chris Sale to Atlanta for Vaughn Grissom, making it a sort of neutral set of moves for the rotation, depending on how the Sale/Giolito swapped was viewed.
With Giolito now set for an extended absence, the rotation is now the same as last year but without Sale. It’s possible that steps forward from their incumbent options of Nick Pivetta, Brayan Bello, Tanner Houck, Kutter Crawford or Garrett Whitlock could make that up somewhat, but it’s nonetheless unideal for the club’s big offseason splash to miss the entire season.
The club has been operating with a bit less spending capacity than in the past. Club president Sam Kennedy said last month that new chief baseball officer Craig Breslow has payroll “parameters” that he is operating under. RosterResource pegs this year’s payroll at $180MM, whereas the data at Cot’s Baseball Contracts shows the club has been as high as $236MM in the past. It appears the club doesn’t look favorably on its chances of competing in a competitive American League East and isn’t willing to spend gobs of money to chance a chance at contention that may be narrow.
Free agency still features big names like Blake Snell and Jordan Montgomery. The Sox have been frequently connected to the latter but without anything seeming close, at least partially due to those apparent budgetary concerns. If the club has interest in a more affordable option for eating some innings, guys like Michael Lorenzen, Jake Odorizzi and Noah Syndergaard remain unsigned.
For Giolito, he will be focused on his rehab for the foreseeable future. He will turn 30 years old in July and will turn 31 before his deal with the Sox expires and he returns to the open market after 2025.
Here’s we go with the slew of TJs
That’s tough, at least there are still some free agent options
It’s cool. We’ll get him back in time for the playoffs *fart noise*
Ugh hate to see it. Speedy recovery, Big LG.
This hurts. There are options available. Be interesting to see what if anything they do.
Probably just add Criswell to the rotation and call it good. The lack of urgency to win, or at least avoid another last place finish, is astounding.
Joemo – John Henry will eventually come to realize his cheapskate approach to running the Red Sox will become a failure, not only on the field but also on the financials. Eventually he’s not gonna turn a profit like the Mariners or Athletics unless he lowers the payroll down to their level.
Well that sucks, I was hoping Giolito would bounceback in 2024. The Red Sox season wasn’t going to be that great as it is so there’s some solace in knowing this didn’t stop them from having a winning season I guess…
Well, Kutter is looking sharp. And maybe here’s some dark horse AA-ball starter who’ll surprise.
Insane – Health is always the biggest factor. I really like Whitlock and Houck, if they can stay healthy.
I think Kutter and Nick can have huge seasons.
Getting surgery is all the rage nowadays. I think I’ll go get elbow surgery too.
You’ll only come back faster. Stronger. Chicks dig that
@tiredolddude_
Don’t they dig the long-ball? Or is that so-90s? Is OBP or wRC+ more important to chicks?
Old Y.
Probably WMC+ (weighted money created) adjusted for house size and current vehicle
@Smelly_Cobb
I like the new metric you created.
Old York,
You’ll be 6 million-dollar man!
I think the league is going to have to do an investigation about what is going on here. Teams are applying all the protocols to protect pitchers and it isn’t working. Even relievers who barely throw are going down.
I’ve watched a lot of baseball in my time, but I have never seen a period like the recent one where pitchers are dropping like flies.
There is a common thread here that is being missed and the league needs to find out what it is.
Yeah, pitchers didn’t get injured like this in the good old days when men were men.
all of your schooling leads to this post.
Some town owes their school taxpayers a decent refund.
Pitchers have always suffered arm injuries. You want the league to investigate this for some reason.
I obviously posted this in the wrong place.
Not sure what politics has to do with Giolito but I’m going to address the TJ situation. The reason that Old Time pitchers didn’t used to get career ending arm injuries is that they did. There was just no medical procedure to fix the problem. They learned to use junk pitches and deception to get guys out. Changed speeds. Not really sure if that really helped their arms or shoulders out any, But it’s what used to happen. Not to mention that guys in the old days used to pop pain pills like chicklets. Nobody cared how they did it, They used to doctor balls, Use nail files and God knows what else. They did what they had to do to survive. So to summarize, There probably aren’t any more arm injuries now than before. They’re just dealt with differently. Class dismissed.
Because pitchers aren’t tought to pitch anymore they are tought to simply throw as hard as they can for as long as they can and we’ll bring in someone else. This starts in LL (hell they they post pitch speeds on the scoreboards @ the LLWS) and keeps going. KIds are briain-washed that only the hardest throwers will make the next level It has nothing to do with pitch counts or innings limits it all has to do with coaching
How hard did Greg Maddux throw? Did he ever have an arm problem. He wouldn’t get a second look from scouts today.
Joe – You just repeated everything I wrote earlier today, even the Maddux reference. Great minds!!!
Joe – must be something with that name because I’m thinking the same thing.
I fear it’s only going to get worse, pitching coach Andrew Bailey wants guys with good stuff, and they can “teach the rest”. However, this obsession with “stuff” and the metrics are causing these issues. Instead of throwing 99, how about 93 but you can paint the corners. Find a good grip and work on locating your off-speed stuff, instead of chasing higher spin rate and movement.
Who is the last pitcher who came up and people said “wow he can really command his pitches, his stuff isn’t that overpowering though”. It has to be Kyle Hendricks right?
I would much rather have a guy who can hit his spots consistently versus a guy with spotty command but has great stuff.
I agree but kids aren’t just brainwashed that only hard throwers make it to the next level…it has become a fact…a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I also think there are lots of surgeries in part because a team has a lot to lose by trying the rehab route. It could turn one year missed into two. The Red Sox can’t afford to let him miss that much time ..he’s only signed for 2 seasons. Also with so many success stories people too easily opt for the surgery and I honestly think if they wanted to rehab the team may not like it.
I dunno, Yanks. Back in the olden days, you had relatively few flame throwers—hitting 90+ on the gun was a rarity. Now, everyone and their grandmother is in the mid 90’s. And with the advent of speed have come the TJ surgeries
Maybe it’s simple physics that states human anatomy can’t take the wear and tear after years of throwing. Just wondering what the sport can do in terms of protections and safeguards
You’ve also never seen any period where pitchers had this kind of stuff and velocity. The game has evolved to the point of hurting itself, literally.
The common thread may be the pitchers gripping the ball too hard after sticky stuff got banned.
suit – Wrong.
The ban took place in early 2021.
There were 76 pitchers who had TJS between 2017-2020.
From Dr. Keith Meister:
“Today it’s the opposite, Meister said. Pitchers apply a “death grip” to the ball, essentially pre-loading every muscle in their arms. At release, those muscles acutely lengthen in what is known as an “eccentric contraction.” The result can be almost like a hamstring tearing, affecting different pitchers in different parts of the arm.”
theathletic.com/5325032/2024/03/08/elbow-injuries-…
Is the “death grip” needed since sticky stuff was banned? This is why I said above that it might be.
suit – The 76 pitchers who had TJS between 2017-2020 didn’t begin using the “death grip” because they knew the sticky stuff would be banned in 2021 … not even if they had a time machine.
One comment, albeit a trolling one (though probably serious at the same time) took a very wrong turn, very quickly…
Doctors generally know little about why things happen or how to prevent them. Western medical science is literally based off of treating symptoms. There is not a known cause for almost anything people see a doctor for. They don’t even know what causes a headache. Almost all diseases are names for symptoms. The medical industrial complex controls medical education and teaches (outside of surgery) little beyond prescribing medication. I think most of these injuries can be chalked up to lack of awareness during throwing/stretching/exercising. There are so many great programs for arm strength today but if, even for one set of an exercise, a player is not activating the correct muscles a simple stretch turns into an injury waiting to happen. Much of this may be cause by societies general lack of attention span. Take movies for instance. Watch an old film. Notice how slow it is. Watch a new film. People believe kids have no attention so they try anything to hold their attention but it all results in more lack of attention span. The Internet is largely why. Just one opinion. As to year to year increases/decreases it is small sample sizes. Perhaps not all programs are for everyone. And not everyone can max out every pitch (the main culprit likely).
This so probably my main annoyance in modern life…doctors. if anyone thinks Im exaggerating about them only understanding symptoms and not causes I would say, if you have a “disease” like autoimmune for instance, press your doctor to actually tell you what it is. They will list a series of symptoms…press them to tell you the cause and if they are honest they will tell you…we don’t know. The medical industrial complex has no interest in preventing disease…they only make money if someone is sick. Your doctor doesn’t probably even realize this. But it is all a scientific problem at root because western science has no understanding of how or why a healthy body functions as it does. They can tell you what it does but not why and hence not what could go wrong. We sometimes forget how big of a mystery life and hence the body truly is. If they were honest about this I’d have no problem but nobody explains these things to you.
Did pitchers start gripping the ball harder after sticky stuff was banned? If so, is this causing more pitcher injuries. I have merely thrown this out as a possibility, never claiming it was a fact.
That’s what you get for signing a pitcher that looked awful in LA and CLE last year at a “deal”
soxfan – Exactly!! New injuries like this don’t suddenly happen in just the second start of ST, after pitching just 2 innings in his first start. It very well likely was an underlying condition and when he let loose in his first start that did it …. just like Story letting loose last offseason which triggered his need for surgery.
When are the Red Sox gonna learn? Stop signing declining players, more often than not you can’t “fix” the reason for the decline.
@soxfan1 …and trying to beat the Mets out of signing a player; another red flag there!
That’s 200 innings that need to get covered. If it’s a bridge year, let everyone under the sun develop and see what you have. Ridiculous to spend on Montgomery especially with the dead money going to Giolito.
Don’t worry. 70 games started by middle relievers and as long as they all go 3 innings each, you’re home free…
Not really.
2024 Giolito was a swap for 2023 Sale, and otherwise the SP options are basically the same as last year.
Considering the amount of time Sale missed, you’re not looking at all that much compared to the ’23 rotation.
Stability and innings eaten would’ve been nice though and helped with fatigue, although, some of the younger guys should be able to give another 20 IP each this year ideally.
Still think montgomery on a 4/90 up to a 5/115 deal if thats what it took would be a nice fit
GASox – I think the MLBTR writers are missing something when they say the Red Sox have basically the same starting rotation as last year. Paxton pitched only 96 innings, but he was a stabilizing force and pitched great for a while. The plan was to have both Whitlock and Houck in the pen with Sale/Bello/Crawford/Paxton/Pivetta in the rotation.
Even though Paxton ended the season on the IL, he was still part of the rotation that was lost this offseason. I think most would agree Houck and Whitlock are more effective as relievers, although they certainly could become good starters.
They’ve already got one. He’s signed through 2027.
I wonder if this had something to do with his teerrible time as an Angel last season.
@Angels2WS No that happens to everyone Angels sign; Honk
…or trade for, so it seems…. 🙁
49ers QB Brock Purdy had that injury and that brace surgery. It took him about 7-8 months to fully recover. He was injured in January of 2023 and back throwing in training camp by August (though I don’t think he participated in preseason games). I don’t know….pitching is probably more stressful on the arm than throwing a football the recovery time is probably greater for a pitcher than a QB.
Yeah, the average for pass attempts in an NFL game is 33-35. That’s one bad inning or three very good ones in MLB.
I’d say the motion and release point are gentler in the NFL as well. Throwing a football takes less effort to control and your releasing and converting your motion to just follow through earlier in the arc.
Also fewer high effort throws. QB’s very rarely try to throw max velocity.
Gerrit Cole is about sure for TJ surgery too. Yankees might have Boras on line 1 for Snell like 2 for Monty. The Yankees now need both to make up for Cole. Good luck.
His agents at CAA did a nice rip off job on the Sox selling this guy to them for 2 years guaranteed 40 million. And he will now be paid to sit out for at least 1 season. Amazing that they get away with things like this.
It’s no different from the billionaire team owners extorting the general public to foot the bill for new stadiums every 20-25 years. Nor is it any different from how those billionaires grift and con their way up the ladder to get that vast amount of wealth to buy a sports team. At least the athletes do put in the work to throw a ball around better than 99.9% of the human race before their bodies break in the middle of their contracts.
I’m sick of hearing about that. The citizens are to blame for voting for these people in the first place. Vote in scumbags get screwed over by scumbags.
I’m always suspicious. Last year he was terrible second half. Probably had issues , kept quiet till signs the big $ contract , and what do u know , in spring , oops I’m injured.
See it often.
The physical the Red Sox had him undergo before the contract became official would have at least mentioned that his arm was hanging by a thread. He made it halfway through spring training before his injury so he was physically fine up to that point. I think last year was just a down year because A) he was going through a divorce (check his wiki page if you don’t believe me) which is a big enough distraction for anyone going through that, and B) was getting bounced around between terrible teams. White Sox especially had the worst defense in the game last year, which didn’t do him many favors in the ol’ ERA department.
Not to wear too large of a foil hat at the moment, but, to a VERY limited degree I think some of these issues can be hidden by players who are free agents and wait a little while into the offseason to sign.
Think about it. Tears in ligaments don’t usually happen out of nowhere, they’re gradual. So imagine a pending FA has some nagging soreness in their elbow. If imaged it may show some inflammation and swelling, the begins of maybe a tear starting, but, nothing that prevents playing yet – just a diminishing of some production, some velocity loss. So they don’t report it at the very end of their contract and play though it the last few weeks or however long.
So, now they’re a FA. They can treat privately, and, no physician can release their health info. So, you get some injections for the inflammation, take some anti inflammatory meds for two months, get it to go down to where on a scan at your physical it just looks like a 30-something year old athlete. NO athletically active person, even a non-pro, has perfect clear images as they age. It’s considered normal wear and tear.
Then, they get their contract, have obviously stopped their treatments some time ago, resume regular higher level activities, and boom, the problem is back, except, the damage that started the end of last year is now bad enough to need time off or repair.
Cynical, but, I’d bet it happens more than we think.
But the throw is forever in Fuller’s mind. So, too, is the entire six-pitch at-bat.
Earlier in the day, he’d felt a little pocket of fluid in his elbow. Something was off as he warmed up. He figured it was just soreness.
The first five pitches were OK. He reached a full count. Then he threw the fateful pitch. A “gunshot” went off in his elbow as he threw it. A 91 mph two-seam fastball on the payoff pitch. He got the strikeout.
“If you go back and get the TrackMan data on it, that thing had to have close to 20 inches of horizontal break on it,” Fuller said. “It almost looks like I threw a changeup just with how much arm-side run it had.”
He’s prideful of the pitch. But it came with a bad prognosis.
It’s the nature of pitching in general. Every pitcher is walking around with ligaments that fray a little more every time they throw a baseball. It’s just not natural to be chucking as hard as they do as often as they do. Hell, Matt Brash basically gets MRI scanned every year because he’s a high effort thrower and is built like a skeleton compared to most pitchers.
MLB teams all have a squadron of trainers and doctors, and it’s their job to be thorough when giving a player a physical. Even if said player is trying to hide his injury, it usually doesn’t get past the team’s medical staff because there are millions of dollars at stake. The Dodgers recently renegotiated their contract with James Paxton because they found something before the initial deal was official. They offered $11M initially, but then cut it down to $7M after his physical. Assuming the Red Sox medical staff did their due diligence like every other team does, they believed he was well enough physically to sign him for 2/$40M. It’s possible he was fine all last year, and all through the offseason, but then started breaking down a bunch this spring.
GASox – Absolutely! And it’s not SOP to take MRI’s of players who are not complaining of any pain or discomfort.
Remember last November and December when I vehemently said he’s the one guy I do NOT want the Red Sox to sign? I had a reason for it!!
Jarred – He sucked in 2022 as well, so there goes your theory about it being the wifey’s fault.
F
Garrett Coles next
Under
Tough break, good guy, great pitcher. Red Sox need to think hard, pony up for Cease, pay for Montgomery or limp into the East.
It must sure suck to be a team and get nothing for $40 million
Not sure what right the players have to constantly complain except when they get millions to do nothing
Captain – It’s the Red Sox, they are used to paying millions for nothing in return.
Mondesi 2023 $3M for literally nothing.
Paxton 2022 $10M for literally nothing
Sale 2024 $17M for literally nothing
The list goes on and on.
Fever – sale in 2024 doesnt belong on the list, the 17m bought grissom.
If it was a straight dump, like Hosmer, then you’d have a point with him.
GASox – We will have to disagree on Sale’s value, and Grissom’s as well. I find it hard to believe no team would have taken Sale without demanding $17M with him, even for a prospect. The Rangers offered to take on his entire contract AND give the Sox prospects, and that was mid-2022.
Fever – I don’t consider the sale deal a finding a taker to dump him; it was all to get a 2B solution that Breslow liked. Sale ended up being the cost to ATL Breslow was comfortable with to get Grissom.
You can disagree with the 2B Breslow chose, and the price he paid, but I don’t think Sale was a salary dump Ala mookie.
Look at it as buying Grissom, and, ATL probably asked for pitching – maybe even bello. Breslow countered with Sale + cash.
GA – Exactly. Not a salary dump. A dump yes the kind that belongs in a toilet but salary was no part of it. Grissom has six years of control and the $17MM needs to be spread across it. That means instead of paying $1MM, $1MM, $1MM, $5MM, $10MM and $15MM for a total of $33MM during his controlled years the Red Sox will pay $50MM which is the price you might pay for an all-star quality controlled player. I don’t believe he will perform at that level so I would have traded prospects for Grissom thus allowing the 2024 team to have $17MM more to spend on pitching but that’s just me.
GASox – To clarify, I agree he wasn’t a dump. But he definitely was moved to clear 2024 payroll space for Gio.
I have high hopes for Grissom, but I think he will be another good-bat no-glove type player.
Meanwhile, the Yankees are treating Cole with super glue and popsical sticks.
whyhayzee – GREAT VISUAL!!!
Maybe MLB should have more pitchers stitched into a big league roster? This is getting ridiculous. This injury devastates the Sox. I hate the Red Sox, but still. The Cole injury has the potential to, again, devastate the Yanks. I hate the Yanks, not as much as the Red Sox, but still. Let’s see a six-man rotation with a few more relievers stitched into a roster. It’s about time.
Hard to disagree with the six man rotation idea. It’s hard to compare pitchers from 50 years ago throwing twice as many innings but maxing out at 90 MPH instead of today’s 100 MPH. The human body does not change. It’s like asking every marathon runner to run their race at 10K pace. Good luck with that. I mean, how much faster are sprinters today than 50 years ago? But we are asking pitchers to throw how much harder? And scratching our heads at all the injuries? Did I mention that the human body does not change? What the heck are we doing? Holy cow.
why – It’s the analytics crowd’s infatuation with strikeouts, pure and simple.
baked – Haha!! You’re pulling our chain, right?
You know MLB just implemented a 13-pitcher roster limit, right?
So you want, what, 16 pitchers and just the backup catcher on the bench?
Sure let’s have starters pitch just once a week, 5 innings max. That would protect the little guys’ arms …. right?
This is irrelevant in the grand scheme because the front office is looking at 2025 and beyond rather than actually trying to win games.
Mafia – Very true, but isn’t it bizarre the Netflix documentary could be covering a 90-loss last place season and Red Sox ownership isn’t ashamed about that? if this year is as bad as it’s looking, a huge audience will be witnessing it up close. The entire organization will have to relive this season all over again next year.
I hope they show some of our comments here, to give a feel for disappointed and angry Red Sox Nation is.
There’s should be a MLBTR/M*A*S*H page
I claim Hawkeye as the chief medical director for the red sox. Heck, he’s even from maine!
Funny thing is in the first season he was from the great state of Vermont.
GASox – I’ll be Sidney Freedman, this place needs a psychiatrist!
All I know is my man Brais throws upper 90’s and hasn’t needed TJ surgery!!! Even though his last stint with us everyone ( but me/ fever/ icon/ Mrs Brais/and a couple others) hoped he’d get it…. My only prediction for season… Brais hits walk off bomb( or gives it up) to bring Dodgers WS championship ( hits in Ohtahni’s spot because they lost DH..
olm – What do you think of Yamamoto’s first two games? I know, I know …. just ST …. but still, dude couldn’t have been any worse.
Got to feel for Red Sox fans. Team gets rid of a talented but often injured pitcher and picks up a guy that is mediocre but at least he is always healthy and then the always healthy guy gets hurt and will miss most of his contract with the Red Sox.
@Pads Fans You forget to add Chris Sale is having an awesome bounce back spring with the Braves! 🙂
I hear Chris Sale is pitching a great spring for the Braves!
This is terrible. Hate to see majors injuries like this.
Not sure what politics has to do with Giolito but I’m going to address the TJ situation. The reason that Old Time pitchers didn’t used to get career ending arm injuries is that they did. There was just no medical procedure to fix the problem. They learned to use junk pitches and deception to get guys out. Changed speeds. Not really sure if that really helped their arms or shoulders out any, But it’s what used to happen. Not to mention that guys in the old days used to pop pain pills like chicklets. Nobody cared how they did it, They used to doctor balls, Use nail files and God knows what else. They did what they had to do to survive. So to summarize, There probably aren’t any more arm injuries now than before. They’re just dealt with differently. Class dismissed.
The Red Sox don’t need to do anything. The team is only going to compete for a wild card if a lot of good things happen. If Bello, Crawford, and Houck take giant steps forward and the offense takes steps forward they can compete. It’s very unlikely and Gio wasn’t going to be the difference. I would also argue even if the Red Sox signed Yamamoto they weren’t going to compete for a wild card unless the young pitchers took big steps forward. Is it possible the pitching staff is much better than most people sure it is but it’s unlikely. I’m guessing the rotation will be better than most think but not good enough to compete in the AL East for a wild card. Really no harm no foul.
The Yankees otoh are in a difficult spot. They have a 300 million payroll and are clearly going for it this year but this could be a death blow to the Yankees. I doubt they are willing to sign anyone else since they it will cost them double this year in penalty’s. They are going to have to depend on returns to health and from leaps forwards by younger players. Sounds a lot like the Red Sox but with a 300 million payroll.
Completely agreed. I think the difference for the Sox won’t be the rotation, it’ll be the bullpen. Even if our starters don’t go far, the bullpen has to step up to prevent runs, which is very possible.
Whitlock should be part of that bullpen while Winckowski should be a starter. That’s a change I would make ASAP.
Bruin1012 – Looking at the Cease 2 years at $8MM. Why didn’t we offer them a bunch for Cease and now with the Breslow screw-up why isn’t it more urgent to get Cease? Worst case, he does well and our team sucks and we deal him at the deadline.
I say give the sox four prospects for Cease. Mayer, Jordan, Yorke and Abreu. You have two years to determine if you want to re-sign him and in the meantime you’ve bought time for the big 3 young SPs to get better.
These contract guarantees have to come with clauses, right? I understand him getting $38m even he fails to perform as expected, but if he can’t perform at all – or only some of the times, there has to be limits, right?
no – Nope.
Now you see why most of us are unhappy that Bello got extended so soon.
And why some teams, like the Yankees, generally don’t do extensions.
nosake and Fever – Two different things come in to play in this situation. The PAYROLL is screwed but the Red Sox have insurance to cover a major portion of the wasted money.
Time to get CEASE before the Yankees do and it’s a win-win.
@Fever Pitch Guy
Yankees don’t do extensions? You’re using the Yankees when Cole might be finished this year and they signed Rodon? Yeah, they might not be “extensions,” but they havent turned out well and tied up a lot of money. Not a good example. I can smell your hostility toward the Red Sox and just wanting to disagree to disagree.
I, too, was against signing Bello, but if you wait two years, the price goes way up and then you have something new to complain about.
You seriously don’t have much good to say about the Sox. Maybe choose a new team because all you do is complain. You don’t propose many solutions either, just show hostility toward any move the Sox make.
haha this fkn team
If Cole needs surgery, the Yankees will probably sign both Monty and Snell. Money doesn’t matter, fans are expecting big things after last year and if they got both pitchers the club would still have profits over $500MM for 2024. Keep things in perspective. The CAP doesn’t exist in NY.
Personally, I think they sign Snell because at some point Monty is simply going to say “Screw the 7 year deal, I can win two more rings with the Rangers!!! Have you seen the two kids, Carter and Langford? Put them with Garcia, and it won’t matter if Seager, Jung, deGrom, Scherzer and Mahle won’t be ready to start the season. Who is going to beat them in the playoffs!!!”
TF – It’s not just this year, the Yanks have to be thinking about next year and the year after too. You really think they will add $120M to this year’s payroll obligation by signing both? And then what about if they want to re-sign Soto, which is highly likely? I think the Yanks could sign one of the southpaws, but not both.
As for Monty, he’s got the ring already … money takes precedence now. If anything he would probably enjoy being the #1 starter in Boston.
Jimenez : ok thanks for the clarification. So when I go home today I’ll tell my black neighbor he is an Uncle Tom. Then I ll tell the Hispanic family down the street to take their flag down. I guess the guy that I am working at house has a right. All white upper middle class town. Some how he feels the need to fly his BLM flag. The only minority around is the one I am working side by side with. But hey thanks for the education
We found Bauer’s burner account.
127 pitchers in MLB average 96+ mph. If you include all the guys that averaged 95.6 mph (what would register as 96 mph on the ballpark radar gun) or higher its 177 pitchers. 23 averaged 99 mph. Its not all that uncommon.
It doesn’t mean he was good. 1st off he was basically throwing a live BP against minor league players. This was not a game, he was not out there throwing 90-100 pitches, and he was throwing to guys guys not even good enough to be in major league camp. 2nd, In game situations when he was not admittedly cheating with spider tack or other sticky substances Bauer has a career 4.51 ERA. Why do I say admittedly? Bauer has said exactly when he was using spider tack and combinations of sticky substances on his YouTube and social media. We know exactly when he was cheating and when he wasn’t. Over that time frame and among starting pitchers with a qualifying number of IP, Bauer’s non-cheating ERA ranks 208th of 259 starting pitchers. Not exactly god.
Fever – The Yankees paid $36MM for Cole AFTER they were over the threshold in 2021. Does that sound like a team working under the same rules that you or I might work within? Remember, 1/2 billion in profits reduced by $80MM so the fans can have a shot at winning after being embarrassed last year doesn’t seem like that much to me. I see no reason to not offer Soto $40MM or more per year in 2025 for 13 years. He’s worth it but the question is will he want to make more than Judge’s AAV of $40MM. Right now their tax bill is $42MM if they add one $25MM a year pitcher it goes up $12.5MM more. If they add two it goes up $25MM to $67MM. Profits sill remain close to $500MM so why would they care if it keeps fans happy? It’s not like anywhere else, the Yankees have been doing this for over 100 years and have always turned a huge profit.
You are still in dream world with Monty. Nobody in their right mind goes to Boston with Cora as manager, Devers playing horrific defense, the owners with their heads scrambled and a new GM who isn’t really trying to make things better. All of us Monty fans want to think like you but it’s a fantasy not reality. If Monty gets desperate he takes another ring over the chaos that is Boston Red Sox baseball.
I loved your “money takes precedence now” quote. You may be right but Monty has made $20MM in his career at age 30. He’s healthy and will probably make another $175MM over the next 7 years. Does money take precedence? Really? Is he struggling with only $20MM made so far? Or should quality of life matter? Maybe winning another ring or two while pulling in another $50MM of the next two years.
If I’m Monty, Boston is the last thing I would want. He’s got a GREAT GREAT team in Texas and BOSTON has a miserable team. Texas has the best manager in baseball and Boston has the worst. Texas has one of the best GMs in baseball and Boston has one of the worst. Texas has great defense and a young athletic team, Boston has horrendous defense and many bad contracts for players who are not well rounded, young players.
Put yourself in his shoes, knowing he has made $20MM and will make well over $100MM more over the rest of his career and ask yourself, where would you enjoy doing it the most? With a winner or a loser?
Fever – The Cease to Texas deal could help your scenario work out!! If Cease solves the short term issue Texas has then all Monty ties will be severed. I still wouldn’t go to Boston if I was Monty but at least the ring alternative in Texas may be fading quickly. If Monty is smart he jumps on a two year deal with Texas and takes his chances in 2 years after going to the playoffs two more times.
TF – I think Monty’s priority right now is financial security. Even though he’s been trending in the right direction for several years and he’s been healthy, there’s no guarantee that will continue. His value could never be higher than now. If he can get a 9-figure contract right now, he will do it. And of course he can always add opt-outs in case he has an even better 2024 season.
TF – Yanks signed Cole in 2019. They were over only the first threshold that year, and they were under it in 2018, 2020 and 2021.
Now with the Yanks being over for the third consecutive year, and with them being over the top threshold, it would cost them 210% of the AAV for any contract they give out now.
That’s why I’m saying they won’t spend $120M for one year of Snell/Monty, and even $72M for one year of just Snell seems unlikely.
Fever – The Dec 2019 signing of Cole is NOT a 2019 signing, it’s a 2020 signing and it happened two months prior to COVID. Also, NYY were under the CAP at the end of 2019 and had already added some players to increase their payroll over the 2020 cap prior to Cole’s signing. I wrote at the time that it was a blatant slap in the face to the CAP since the commissioner allowed them to fully exceed the CAP with a $36MM contract. That was the point I was making.
The other point I was making is that if your profits are more than 1/2 billion annually then why would a tax on one or two guys be a deal breaker when it doesn’t change much except the profits dropping from 1/2 billion to what maybe something slightly under $400MM? Is that incentrive? Maybe to you or me as individuals but if they want to win, they can go all in without hesitation.
With Cease costing $8MM for two years, it makes much more sense for them to dump the prospects since next to none of them ever amount to anything. In fact, it would make sense for Breslow to put pressure on NY by offering Chicago 3 or 4 Bloom draftees for Cease. The team needs him. The money fits and the prospects are not likely to be anything above league average and Cease could end up an all-star with a good pitching coach working with him.
TF – That’s what I wrote. They were not over the threshold in 2020 or 2021, therefore no tax implications for signing Cole.
If they sign anyone now, it would be 110% tax because they are above the top tier and it’s their third consecutive year over the threshold.
Fever – One more time,…. in Dec of 2019 prior to COVID the NYY’s payroll was above $203MM when they signed Cole and they ended 2020 with a payroll of $239,827,290!!!!
That was clearly over the $208MM threshold.
COVID reduced many payments but the Yankees were OVER THE LIMIT in 2020. At the end of 2019 they were slightly below and then in the off season prior to the Cole Signing their total rose slightly above the $208MM 2020 CAP. THEN COLE SIGNED moving them $36MM higher AFTER ALREADY BEING OVER THE CAP for 2020.
It wasn’t supposed to be a debatable fact. I was simply pointing out that NY has VERY VERY little concern for the CAP since they make a half billion or more per year and now that it’s been over a decade the fans are expecting more from the richest franchise in baseball.
TF – There were no payments for 2020, the luxury tax was suspended that season for Covid. No players received full salary that year, they received only 37 percent. That’s why owners wanted the shortest regular season possible, to screw the players while retaining the hugely profitable postseason!! haha!
Even if there was no Covid, Yankees would have been only over the first threshold and only 2-time offenders in 2020 because they were under in 2018.
Now is different, they are 3-time offenders and over the THIRD threshold! Much much stiffer penalties!
Dickiesox – Do you feel better now that you got that rant off your chest? I hope so because trying to retroactively evaluate the world with 20/20 hindsight and THEN CORRECT actions you deem inappropriate is a bizarre god complex to me.. You do realize that people who live in the past not the present or future are not the people that should be making decisions in our society?
Here is a phrase you might want to think about….. It happened, get over it and look to the future. Tearing down statues to men who were honored for their contributions at a time when the world was very different isn’t shameful, it’s just history. It’s something we document so we can learn from it not so we can erase the parts we don’t like.
Troll is also wrong about almost everything it said.
@Troll there you go resorting to name calling to try and defens your ignorance. The first 2 women in Ohio said it was NOT consensual, therefore they did not “sign up” for anything….
He was guilty of violating MLB/MLBPA Domestic Violence policy on 3 counts with separate women.
The past is relative my friend. I don’t know how old you are but it’s probably not too far fetched of me to say that you probably have parents or grand parents who were alive during the holocaust or at the very least, the end of Jim Crowe laws. No matter how old you are today, in the grand scheme of things, we are not that far removed.
Here is a phrase you might want to think about…HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF. “Get over it”?! Pretty insensitive. Tell that to the multitude of people who are still alive today who dealt directly with segregation and all the senseless nonsense that came with it when it was actually taking place as well as all the the following generations of ppl who still deal with the effects of it today. I agree that We can still learn from our history but it shouldn’t be celebrated or honored in such a manner. I appreciate Tom Yawkey for starting the Jimmy Fund but he and his cronies were still a bag of racist d**ks.
I mean, do you have the desire to say a slur? Does it/would it enrich your life in any sort of way? Why does it bother you? Maybe these are the questions you should be asking yourself?
Honestly, if we signed another big pitcher to a deal, the same thing could have happened. Red Sox made the same mistake they have been trying to avoid. However, this is only a one or two year deal, so we bite the bullet and move on and aren’t tied for multiple years. Sox will just be more reluctant to sign new pitchers now, but I’m beginning to accept the philosophy every time we see one of free agents get injured after signing a big contract (let’s just hope the John Henry limits Chaim Breslow to develop the farm philosophy works).
Two years as he’s not opting out of ’25. The good news is that he can potentially be on the OD roster next season.
It’s a 3 year deal if he pitches 140 innings next year.
We don’t know that Cole is officially done for the year yet, but it doesn’t sound good.
Cleveland Indians
@baseballfan This sounds racist (even if unintentionally) no offense. GA’s post was very logical.
I’m still waiting on the Cole MRI results. The longer it takes, probably not the better.
always – They have the results already, they are just seeking additional opinions which is obviously the right approach.
Blah Blah Blah – It’s NEVER been about race.
As early as 1928 the Communist Party declared that the racial differences among our people constituted the weakest and most vulnerable point in our social fabric. By constantly probing and straining at this one spot, they calculated that eventually the cloth could be torn apart and that Americans could be divided.
I’m floored how Red Sox physical didn’t catch this ?
If there were a medical test that were able to tell when a pitcher’s elbow ligament was about to tear someone would have found it by now and made a boatload of money from every MLB team selling it to them.
Bingo.
It’s called an MRI
Right ! Did he ever even pitch ?
Astros – I gave it some time but still don’t understand what you mean? My post was pointing out how great a person Jean Yawkey was, therefore the Yawkey name shouldn’t have been removed just because of Tom. A few months ago I actually posted an extensive summary of her accomplishments.
Seems like you’re agreeing with me, correct?
Super unfair that the Sox are on the hook for his salary when they will get zero production out of him. This coming from a fan of a different AL East team. Hope they have insurance on him.
GoRav
Seems unfair that teams get indentured servants for like the first decade of a player’s career
Not a fair or even accurate comparison. Soto has made 50 million not even counting this season and he’s never been a free agent. The system works fine at rewarding those that can play or limiting those that cannot.
GoRav
How is it not fair or accurate
Soto could have been an indentured servant for the first decade of his career
He was CERTAINLY not paid his market rate for the first 5 years of his career
The Sox did not insure Giolito’s contract. They “effed” up big time!
Looks like Lucas will be picking up his player option for 2025 then hoping for 140 innings pitched so his 2026 option vests as well.
I’m replying to myself because the pathetic “Mike Greenwell” imposter, who appeared just recently, proved to be a kitty by attacking me and then muting me because he doesn’t have the baseballs to allow a direct response. Sound familiar? Attack, run and hide …. hmmm, what kind of person is known for acting so cowardly …..
The sad kitty thinks my defending Bauer’s right to play baseball is somehow “promoting” him.
The sad kitty also thinks his money is what’s keep this site afloat, a website that has been around since 2005 and didn’t even offer paid subscriptions until a few years ago. And he’s been posting for what, 3 days or so?
Best of all, the sad kitty thinks everyone who posts here without paying is a “deadbeat”. Figures, a kitty who is too ignorant to even know the definition of words he uses.
If the real Gator knew what kind of cowardly kitty was posting crap using his name, he would be absolutely disgusted.
Here it is folks, a direct quote from the kitty impostor known as “Mike Greenwell”.. Gotta love kitties who think they are superior because they spend $3 a month.
“This site exists because sports fans like me pay for it. Deadbeats like you that aren’t paying to be here”
Don’t even bother unmuting me to reply, I don’t tolerate or engage with sad kitties like you.
I haven’t seen the internal brace procedure accelerate pitchers returning to the mound much. Around 15-18 months is a reasonable expectation.
He probably had a physical before signing the contract
Evidently the physical was not well done
Sue the doctor…..
Ubald – The United States of America is based on the right to have freedom.
Bauer has the right to play MLB and teams have the right to not sign him.
Some people here believe he doesn’t have a right to play, which is completely wrong.
Any pitchers that are examples of this? No one is coming to mind
The GOP is a cancer? LOL.
The modern GOP is more left of center than JFK.
That’s one person’s take on it, but that’s not what the definition of racism is. You need to open up a few more books.
I’m curious about this alternative. Are there any medical professionals on this site who could provide an informed comment about the trade-offs or risks associated with this “shorter recovery” procedure?
The internal brace procedure is the same thing that Aaron Rodgers had on his ruptured Achilles. Instead of traditional surgery involving grafting a new tendon to replace the torn (in this case) ligament, the surgeon uses a brace or bridge to support the damaged ligament. Provides a faster rehab time (usually) but remains somewhat murky because it is relatively new.
I don’t know where you stand guard, but last week an African (Black) Political group is shouting for the death of White Farmers.
If that’s not racist, the word has lost all meaning.
@Fever – correct, agreeing and adding to it
Tom is erased as a sop to current loudmouthed blackmailers, a miniscule but destructive element in our nation.
The late 70s were the highwater mark for racial relations in this country, and it’s been downhill ever since, because of this kind of crap. There was no call to erase Yawkey THEN, at a time when there were people who might actally have been aggreived by his words or actions, but NOW Yawkey has to be de-personed? Ubaldo, you need to chill
Pads – I know you’re not worth responding to because of your long history of intentionally repeating false statements over and over, but just so others who are unbiased and rational can understand, the video immediately after the alleged “beating” in which she’s lying in bed while he’s sleeping next to her CLEARLY shows she’s not only perfectly fine, but absolutely ecstatic about what happened that night.
If you’re really so gullible as to believe the defendant’s “doctor”, knowing damn well that EVERY SINGLE DAY there are similar “doctors” who are in cahoots with lawyers and therefore exaggerating or totally fabricating injuries because the “doctors” benefit financially from doing so, then I feel guilty even continuing this dialogue.
I personally was injured in a car accident and my attorney wanted HIS “doctor” to evaluate my injuries, rather than my own doctor. Now WHY do you think that is?? Think really hard here.
As for your comment about my morals, again that is extremely ignorant of you. I have repeatedly stated I would never do what Bauer did even if my wife requested it. But I would NEVER try to force my views down people’s throat the way you are trying to do.
What two consenting adults do to each other in the privacy of their own home or hotel room is not relevant to MLB.. Mookie said the exact same thing.
And by the way, look back at prior discussions about this subject and you WON’T find me involved in them. The reason I became involved this time is because a) This is a Red Sox article and b) I am so damn sick and tired of you people trying to force your opinions on others and claim someone is guilty of a crime after it’s been proven they were NOT. Save some of your anger for the person who truly deserves it, the woman who lied about it to extort money.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34761344/
“It Was Scary, But Then It Was Kind of Exciting”: Young Women’s Experiences with Choking During Sex
Choking/strangulation during sex is prevalent among young adults, with one study finding that 58% of women college students had ever been choked during sex.
@Fever Pitch Guy
I think what you say is logical in this case, but just so we are clear, you have falsely accused others of making false statements in the past that disagree with your own. You have called out several in the past, so I wouldn’t sound like you are the perfect poster here.
And I’m tired of you calling out Cora constantly… so get over that.
@Ubaldo
Not all of that is traditional GOP. You are talking about extremes and certain groups of the GOP
You sound very one-sided, so I’m not convinced either way. Just saying
Man people who just want everyone to be treated fairly are the worst. Am I right?
“Im no supporter of racist people.” Proceeds to say a bunch of racist stuff.
Hahahaha this might be the most ignorant comment of all. You missed the part where the positions of Democrats and Republicans switched gears following FDR.
Yes. The Democrats were the party of slavery and the KKK. Yes. The Democrats were the party of Jim Crow. But FDR made the Democrats the party of progressivism and conservatives amongst the party switched isles to fight against civil rights in the late 40s-early 50s. How can you pretend to be intelligent and use this ridiculous argument?
Who?
@Fever, have you taken the time yet to read into the first 2 women in Ohio who accused we him? If not why are you so vehemently defending a man with multiple claims of sexual assault against him??
They are absolutely tapped
“John Henry is VERY liberal and woke-minded.”
Very true as is the other owner Tom Werner. Thy both give big money to left wing and progressive political candidates and causes. The person who is the wokest is John Henry’s wife, Linda Pizzutti,who is the publisher of the liberal rag the Boston Globe.
The Yawkeys have done and will do more than Henry ever will for the sick and poor in Greater Boston. Through the Yawkey Foundation and the Jimmy Fund, the Yawkey’s have given and continue to give multi-millions of dollars to hospitals and research foundations around New England and the country.
This BS about Tom Yawkey being a racist is just that BS. People started calling Yawkey racist when he brought in Jackie Robinson and Willie Mays for one day workouts and didn’t sign them. There has never been any discussion who either of them did in those tryouts.
And the other reason is the Sox being the last team to sign a black player, Pupsie Green, in 1959. But when you talk to black Sox players from the 1960 and 1970’s teams they speak warmly of Tom Yawkey and how he helped players with down payments for homes when banks in the area would not give the players mortgages and it was separate from their contracts. Reggie Smith and Earl Wilson have spoken about this extensively throughout the years. Even today Jim Rice speaks with admiration about Mr. and Mrs. Yawkey.
The Yawkey’s racist? No. Far from it!
Is it possible for a black man to be a white supremecist?
Box – Agreed. MLB will never live down the Atlanta AS Game fiasco, as just one example.
Astros – Okay cool, thank you for the clarification.
oki – That’s a great point and one of my favorite quotes.
Ubald – Honest question, do you ever post comments that aren’t related to race or political? Most of the people doing so here, myself included, post thousands of comments that aren’t.
Too – Jean Yawkey was a supporter of the Jackie Robinson Scholarship Program and supported several other educational institutions to provide minority students and others with scholarship aid.
Tiger – I already admitted I have followed only the original accuser, and not even that closely. He’s jerky, but what she did was horrific. I will defend anyone and everyone who is falsely accused of wrongdoing.
I have never advocated the Red Sox signing him. All I’m saying is that if a team wants to sign him, they should be able to without fearing a backlash or repercussions.
Let’s put it this way … if he truly was guilty of all the things he’s been accused of, then:
1) You wouldn’t see so many respected people like Mookie supporting him.
2) MLB wouldn’t have allowed him to return
3) He would be in jail
Again I have to ask why anyone would side with the accuser. Not only was she caught lying and trying to extort money while destroying a man’s career, she has also made it even more difficult for REAL victims to be believed when they tell their story. That is why most women are very angry with her.
Ubald – The original accuser is at fault for lying to extort money from him, yes.
And yes it absolutely is typical of some women trying to extort money from wealthy famous men. Bauer was stupid for trusting her.
Tigers – I have repeatedly stated I have no opinion on the others who filed complaints. Is there evidence that supports or refutes their accusations? I honestly don’t know.
I have been commenting only on what I DO know, which is there’s evidence the original accuser lied to extort money from him.
I have a very open mind, provide some evidence/links that proves the other accusations are credible and I’ll agree with you on those cases. I’ve put in the time and effort to provide facts with links, now it’s your turn.
Tigers – What evidence do the Ohio women have that they were assaulted without their consent? How long after the fact did they first make their accusations?
Bring something to the table, I’ll change my mind if you can provide real evidence of guilt.
Life – If consensual rough sex is against MLB policy, then he deserved the suspension he received. But the suspension is over, he has the right to pitch in the majors again.
Ubald – Here it is, now you can’t pretend to not know what a right is.
“a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something”
Bauer has the right to play MLB again. Rose and Jackson do not have the right. It’s not complicated.
Ghost – GASox began all this with that same point, and he’s 100% correct just as you are.
Ubald – Again you expose your ignorance.
The only ones who were “punished” by MLB’s politically-driven decision were the merchants, fans and residents of the Atlanta community …. of which 48% is African American.
But you’re so political you don’t give a damn about any of them, and it shows. Typical of people like you who don’t care about POC.
Ubald – I marched in the LGBTQ parade and attended the LGBTQ event in Boston Common, both on June 10 last year in Boston.
Do I agree with forcing girls to use the same restrooms and locker rooms as males who identify as female? No.
Do I agree with males who identify as female participating in women’s competitions? No.
The world isn’t black and white as you perceive it to be. It should be about right and wrong, period.
Fever – Honest question I’d like your two cents on since you feel Bauer should be given the chance to take the mound again, and, bear with me since it involves my understanding of things so feel free to point out anywhere I’m wrong:
1) from what we’ve gathered Bauer’s kinks are classified as violent enough to violate MLB’s domestic violence/assault policies. Partly I’d presume a portion of this comes from an inability to consent while unconscious to behavior/hitting/etc that occurs in that state, and the grey area of being willing to consent to a possibly illegal act.
2) Bauer, the shy violet that he is, has apparently made abundantly and explicitly clear that he has zero inclination to modify this behavior, mlb be damned, via his social media diatribes/interviews amd will keep on doing what he seems to enjoy.
3) teams are harmed, whether it’s paid administrative leave for no output while mlb ‘investigates’ or time he’s actually suspended without pay, and, in both cases, the team needs to replace his innings.
So, my question is, even if he didn’t understand his behavior was against rules and would harm his club and teammates via suspensions, now that he DOES know a repeat would, the fact he comes out beyond unrepentant and says he plans to keep on repeating that behavior, *why* should a club take on that particular headache and liability?
We can leave aside pr issues and public opinion just related to an actual signing for now.
The state deserved to be punished? You’re delusional.
There is so much fraud in elections and you’re so brainwashed you don’t see it. N
It’s the left that’s the cancer.
Ubald – Oh, so you hate all non-progressives AND you don’t think for yourself, your political party leaders do your thinking for you.
Got it.
B dog – Pretty sure he comes here to post only about politics and race because that’s all he wants to talk about and he’s not allowed anywhere else and nobody will talk to him, so this is his only chance to have an audience.
We will probably hear about him in the news someday and not know it’s him.