The Cardinals traded Dan Haren away in 2004, but they like the idea of bringing him back. Rick Hummel of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports that the Cardinals are one of the teams that covet the D’Backs righty and it doesn’t sound like Haren would mind returning to St. Louis.
“I’ve always said I’d like to play here again,” Haren said, clarifying that he is not asking for a trade.
Haren has limited say in his future, since he doesn’t have a no trade clause. He does have $33.3MM remaining on his contract, and that figure will likely mean some would-be suitors shy away. He makes $750K less than Cliff Lee this year, but has nearly $30MM remaining on his contract after 2010, unlike Lee. That kind of commitment may mean the Cardinals pursue other pitchers.
The Cardinals don’t have Albert Pujols under control after 2011, and have made major commitments to Matt Holliday and Kyle Lohse. Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright are getting paid handsomely, so the Cards may not have the money to add Haren and pay Pujols market value. Other teams, including the Yankees, Twins, Nationals and Tigers, scouted Haren last week according to Nick Cafardo, but the D’Backs aren’t necessarily going to deal him, even if they are open to making deals.
The contract isn’t unreasonable, just a lot for the Cardinals. But IF they were able to take it on…
The Cardinals offer Shelby Miller, Bryan Anderson, and Eduardo Sanchez, and the Diamondbacks at least don’t hang up the phone right away. Of course, it would do a number on the farm system.
i think sanchez is a must. he could be MLB ready next year and they need a TON of BP help. anderson has no real future with this team with molina here. but i just hate seeing shelby miller go. seems inevitable though to acquire haren.
Oh yeah, zero chance of getting a front line player without including Miller.
well they need BP help but they already have a longterm catcher in Anderson.
maybe…..
boggs
sanchez
hooker
craig
2 players that could be closers as early as 2011/2012..1 starter with great stuff..and a guy absolutely raking in AAA.
Arizona’s catcher of the future is Miguel Montero, no ? Gotta include Miller there.
yeah i got my words crossed up. i meant they had a longterm catcher so they would have no use for anderson.
Anderson is still something of value they could flip elsewhere. But Miller definitely has to be in there first and foremost.
Anderson is still something of value they could flip elsewhere. But Miller definitely has to be in there first and foremost.
You don’t trade an ace under a reasonable contract without getting a potential star back. And relievers don’t count.
but thats the thing. haren has almost a 5 era this season. not exactly ace-like. and he is usually a first-half performer.
1) His ERA is 4.56. Let’s not overstate.
2) He’s eaten a lot of innings, striking out a guy almost every inning and walking someone less than once every five. He just has a flukey home run rate.
3) If that package were all the Diamondbacks could get for him, they’d be stupid to bother trading him.
Agree. And AZ has no real reason to trade him – as his contract is still under market value for the next 2-3 years.
Agree. And AZ has no real reason to trade him – as his contract is still under market value for the next 2-3 years.
Wow you’re crazy, Haren hasn’t exactly put up a career year number one but more importantly he has quite a hefty contract still remaining. If the Diamondbacks think they can get both Sanchez and Miller from the Cards they might as well take Haren off the market unless they’re willing to eat salary b/c no team is going to give up those types of prospects for Haren and his contract. Not to mention why would the Cards trade another young promising potential ace just to be in the same situation again? Isn’t that why they want Haren “back” not to mention Miller has much higher upside than Haren did. Then maybe they can trade their top pitching prospect 5 yrs from now to get Miller back
1) His hefty contract is well below market value. I’d much rather have Haren’s remaining years than whatever contract Lee is going to get.
2) Look at Haren’s peripherals. Everything is great this year except for a flukey home run spike and he was consistently outstanding before. He has also been hindered by his home park. Take a look at Kelly Johnson’s home/road split some time to realize what Haren puts up with.
3) Any team in contention with money should want that contract. Someone would come up with prospects on the level of Miller and Sanchez if the Cardinals don’t. And that alone probably isn’t enough.
4) This is NOT like trading Haren for Mulder. Miller won’t be ready for two or three years at a minimum. Haren was 23 and spent his final season with the Cards organization divided between abusing Triple-A and holding his own in the majors. The Cardinals are a win-now team. Rasmus is great, but Pujols, Holliday, and Carpenter’s ages all start with 3s, and Wainwright is 28. IF Miller makes it big, he might not blow up until four or five years from now.
Then let them have him, why the Cardinals need an Ace as their no. 3 starter is ridiculous especially 3 long term and Kyle Loshe as well. Why in the world would the Cardinals trade their future Ace and future Closer no matter how far off for their no. 3 starter currently it makes zero sense especially when they already have control for 4 of their 5 current starters for a couple years. Dan Haren is not worth Miller Sanchez plus more and having to still pay the money owed to him and I’m a huge Dan Haren fan saying that. Not to mention his second half numbers are completely nothing more than average and this is a team trying to win a WS not just have a good first half which is why I was so suprised they signed Penny. Dan Haren has 4.21 career second half ERA and has pitched over 25% less innings in the second half compared to first in his career 767 IP first half 575 IP second half and that number is even skewed considering his first two seasons he was a second half call up for 28 starts total over the two seasons so really he has 752 first half innings and 474 second half innings, that’s insane that is not a pitcher I would give up those prospects for especially when I still have to pay all of his salary. You say only his HR numbers are skewed when if you did any real research or even had a clue as to what you are talking about you’d see that he’s always been susceptible to the long ball and that’s half his career pitching in Oakland and the NL west has some big parks as well. His WHIP is 1.315 this season and is giving up over 10 hits per 9 so I don’t see where you say everything is great besides his HR rate b/c that’s obviously not the case when he leads the league in not only HR’s but hits given up and earned runs. When a pitcher leagues the league in hits given up, HR’s, and Earned Runs everything isn’t great.
The Cardinals no doubt need a pitcher but not one they have to give up the only bright spots in their system for especially one who can barely pitch half the innings in the second half as the first. Kevin Millwood or something along those lines would suit them much better.
And by the way you’re right it’s NOT like trading Haren for Mulder b/c Miller has much higher upside than Haren did whether it’s one or four years away holds no relavence. Yes the Cardinals are trying to win now but they’re not an idiot organization and plan on winning in the future as well.
Miller has more upside than Haren? Haren is one of the ten or so best pitchers of the last half decade. How good do you realistically project a teenager with no track record to be?
If you’re saying the Cardinals don’t need Haren so much they should mortgage their future or fire all the bullets they have, that’s fine.
1) His hefty contract is well below market value. I’d much rather have Haren’s remaining years than whatever contract Lee is going to get.
2) Look at Haren’s peripherals. Everything is great this year except for a flukey home run spike and he was consistently outstanding before. He has also been hindered by his home park. Take a look at Kelly Johnson’s home/road split some time to realize what Haren puts up with.
3) Any team in contention with money should want that contract. Someone would come up with prospects on the level of Miller and Sanchez if the Cardinals don’t. And that alone probably isn’t enough.
4) This is NOT like trading Haren for Mulder. Miller won’t be ready for two or three years at a minimum. Haren was 23 and spent his final season with the Cards organization divided between abusing Triple-A and holding his own in the majors. The Cardinals are a win-now team. Rasmus is great, but Pujols, Holliday, and Carpenter’s ages all start with 3s, and Wainwright is 28. IF Miller makes it big, he might not blow up until four or five years from now.
if memory serves, the cardinals left 3-4million open in the payroll for a midseason addition. penny is making 7mil this year, he will be gone next year. that leaves 10mil for haren.
my bigger concern is the lack of prospects we have to offer not named Shelby Miller.
We’d probably have to throw Salas in there as well. Even then, I’m not sure if that would still be enough.
No backsies.
For that reason, I’d rather the Mets snag Haren than Lee. Lee is pitching better this season, but Haren is under contract, and has a more consistent track record.
Me too. If the Mets have to trade Flores to land a top starter, I’d go Haren. His remaining contract is more reasonable than what Lee will get by leaps and bounds.
I guess if you want stability, Haren would be your guy to go after. But if you want a better chance of winning now, you go after Lee.
Besides, it’s not unreasonable to think the Mets couldn’t keep Lee around beyond this season if they were to trade for him.
If the Cards were to land Haren, then I have to think you’ll see the Reds make a major play for Lee. Seeing another ace added to the Cards pitching staff without making a corresponding move would make it very, very difficult to win that division.
Reds are getting Volquez back very soon so that will be their move. Not sure they would be in the hunt for Lee but I’d think they have the hitting prospects to do so. Maybe they can pick up Aardsma though?
Despite Yonder Alonso’s down season this year in the minors, he still is valuable enough for the M’s to consider if they were to deal Lee to the Reds. I do wonder what else the Reds would have to offer in addition to Alonso and if they would be willing to do so.
Something sizeable. I’d rather have the two draft picks than Alonso.
Something sizeable. I’d rather have the two draft picks than Alonso.
Ah, Lohse’s contract. I bet John Mozeliak is wishing he could do that one over again.
But I do kind of like the idea of bringing Haren back. But he’s got quite a bit of money left on that deal, so I don’t know if we can afford that right now. He’s also shown to slow down in the second half of the season in years past. Those are really the only concerns I would have with bringing Haren back.
Plus what would it cost in terms of prospects? Do we really want to give up Shelby Miller?
Maybe a package of OF Allen Craig, SS Tyler Greene, SP Joe Kelly, and RP Eduardo Sanchez can get a Haren deal done.?
Craig can join a team trying to get younger as he tries to get into the lineup, Greene can plug in at 2B if Kelly Johnson gets traded or SS if Stephen Drew is traded. Sanchez can help a depleted bullpen with as callup sometime as he is already in AAA. Kelly is a sinkerballer and can be effective in Chase Field. He also can be a middle of the rotation starter.
On the other side. Craig departs from the Cardinals who weren’t giving him much playing time because of thier powerful outfield. Greene was somewhat valuable but with Kozma coming up and an 5 man infield of Pujols, Freese, Lopez, Ryan (ehh), and Schumaker, there wasn’t much room for him either (Besides a 5th infielder.) Sanchez would be valuable to the Cardinals as well with Ryan retiring soon and everyteam is looking for BP help, but you have to give something to get something. Kelly has no place in St. Louis either, but is still regarded as a good prospect. Cardinals eat salary and give AZ four B-C prospects to construct with.
I’d say it’s a good deal for both sides.
I dont think there is enough top-flight talent in your proposal to entice AZ to trade Haren. The only reason AZ will trade Haren is if it makes thier team better. They would want some top prospects to make that trade.
Four B-C prospects and salary relief is not enough to get Haren.
Four B-C prospects and salary relief is not enough to get Haren.
That’s a ridiculous trade. You’re just naming a few pieces the Cardinals wouldn’t miss and a relief prospect in return for an ace with a reasonable contract. Miller has to be in there.
Yeah, I think you are right. We can’t get anything good without a package centered around a PTBNL (Miller).
I think a package would have to look something like this:
Miller (PTBNL)
Salas/Sanchez
Boggs/Motte
Greene
That would be my guess anyway. Is that a little too conservative?
Sort of depends what the Backs value. Mller, Sanchez, and Motte gives you a strong upside starting prospect, a right now young reliever, and a soon young reliever. I consider Greene a non-entity in terms of trading for a top starter. I don’t know if two relievers are enough of a hedge against the bet on a pitcher who isn’t close. Maybe the Diamondbacks’ scouts really believe in Daryl Jones. Who knows?
Motte is not going anywhere, the Cards are shaping him up to be the closer of the future. I can definitely see Boggs and Salas being a part of this prospective trade.
Why would the Diamondbacks trade Haren for a teenaged pitching prospect, a relief prospect, and Boggs?
Why would the Diamondbacks trade Haren for a teenaged pitching prospect, a relief prospect, and Boggs?
To get something good (Haren, Oswalt, Lee), either Motte or Boggs has to be part of this equation. To think otherwise is wishful thinking.
But the packages that we are coming up with indicate just how weak our farm system really is. Other teams can outdo whatever we throw on the table quite easily.
To get something good (Haren, Oswalt, Lee), either Motte or Boggs has to be part of this equation. To think otherwise is wishful thinking.
But the packages that we are coming up with indicate just how weak our farm system really is. Other teams can outdo whatever we throw on the table quite easily.
Motte is not going anywhere, the Cards are shaping him up to be the closer of the future. I can definitely see Boggs and Salas being a part of this prospective trade.
That’s a ridiculous trade. You’re just naming a few pieces the Cardinals wouldn’t miss and a relief prospect in return for an ace with a reasonable contract. Miller has to be in there.
Shelby Miller is going to be good, there is no doubting that, but I think that it would be worth giving him up for Haren. And for the payroll, The Cardinals have the money to pay him and Albert. the only thing that bothers me is that they would have to go a few seasons with cheep players around that solid core until the big fish’s contract is over
If the Cards have the prospects AZ needs to get it done then future payroll wouldn’t be much of a concern since Lohse would be coming off the books around the time Pujols gets extended. Pujols next contract could be backloaded, at least for the first few years, if necessary if Lohse is still on the books. I could see the Cards getting this done if they’re really motivated to.
The Cardinals don’t have the prospects to land any ace at the deadline this year.
I don’t think so either.
I still have a hard time believing the D’Backs are going to trade Haren. They are in the NL West. The division winner changes almost every year. Their fortunes can change in a hurry. I just don’t see who is going to anchor that staff if they really go through with trading Haren.
I don’t think so either.
I still have a hard time believing the D’Backs are going to trade Haren. They are in the NL West. The division winner changes almost every year. Their fortunes can change in a hurry. I just don’t see who is going to anchor that staff if they really go through with trading Haren.
They could put a package around Shelby Miller to get Lee or Oswalt, most likely.
They could put a package around Shelby Miller to get Lee or Oswalt, most likely.
The Cardinals don’t have the prospects to land any ace at the deadline this year.
What about Garcia?
Not a chance. If anything, we would be asking for top prospects from THEM in any deal that involves Garcia.
Not a chance. If anything, we would be asking for top prospects from THEM in any deal that involves Garcia.
What about Garcia?
the mets should offer mejia fmart and flores for haren.
prob wont happen but would it be enough?
Likely, but only if Mejia’s shoulder checks out just fine.
That would probably be enough. But isn’t that the package they want to use to try and get Cliff Lee?
Haren would be instead of Lee. Besides, all three of those guys wouldn’t go for a rental. Even two shouldn’t.
Haren would be instead of Lee. Besides, all three of those guys wouldn’t go for a rental. Even two shouldn’t.
That would probably be enough. But isn’t that the package they want to use to try and get Cliff Lee?
How about…
Shelby Miller
Salas
Craig
& Seth Blair (your pick from the 2010 draft)
i dont know if thats fair? too little? too much?
maybe add on Motte to that package?
Can’t trade a guy right after he’s drafted. You need to wait a year, and players to be named later have a six month range on them, maximum.
maybe without blair. take craig out and put in anderson and greene?
we dont need anderson, we have montero & hester. as for greene, he’s a SS/2B, right? not sure we’d want him either, as we have Abreu/Ryal/Ciriaco.and no blair? but didnt you guys trade Brett Wallace the same year he was drafted in the holliday deal?
No. Wallace was drafted in 2008 and he signed pretty quickly (sometime in late June or early July I think). We traded him to the A’s to get Holliday the next year in 2009.
No. Wallace was drafted in 2008 and he signed pretty quickly (sometime in late June or early July I think). We traded him to the A’s to get Holliday the next year in 2009.
Here’s a thought, why not trade ludwick as a player to be named later as in after the season, cards are probably not going to be able to afford him next year as it is.
im trying to think of a similar situation another team has been in and what prospects they gave up.
drawing a blank. best i am thinking is the bartolo colon deal and that was an absolute haul. then again, at the time cliff lee wasn’t that great, philips was average, and sizemore was the centerpiece.
anyone else have ideas?
Probably nothing with us. Whatever we can offer to teams, some other team can easily outdo us. It’s a testament to just how weak our farm system is right now.
Probably nothing with us. Whatever we can offer to teams, some other team can easily outdo us. It’s a testament to just how weak our farm system is right now.
I’d love to get Haren, but with that remaining salary, I don’t think we can afford having him, Carpenter, Wainwright, Holliday, and Pujols. Unless Pujols is willing to take a pay cut because the team would be that good, or if we dump lohse’s salary somehow, someway.
Trade Lohse, Tyler Greene, Shelby Miller, and Allen Craig for Haren and Drew. The Cards need a shortstop and Brendan Ryan’s trade stock is at an all-time low.
Trade Lohse, Tyler Greene, Shelby Miller, and Allen Craig for Haren and Drew. The Cards need a shortstop and Brendan Ryan’s trade stock is at an all-time low.