Yesterday we learned that rival teams continue to kick the tires on Justin Upton. It will take four or five players to meet Arizona's demands, but GM Kevin Towers seems genuinely open to moving the 23-year-old. The Rockies, Marlins and Red Sox appear to be among the interested teams, but the Braves aren't likely to get involved. Here are today's rumors:
- D'Backs president Derrick Hall isn't concerned about potential fallout if the club does not move Upton, tweets Jerry Crasnick of ESPN. Arizona has talked to Upton and told him that they "owe it to [themselves]" to listen, Crasnick tweets.
- The D’Backs are more inclined to move Upton than they were when the GM Meetings began, according to Bob Nightengale of USA Today, who confirms that the Blue Jays, Mariners and Marlins “have expressed a high level of interest in Upton.”
- The Blue Jays are showing "strong interest" in Upton, according to Rosenthal (on Twitter). They are the mystery team from FOX Sports' earlier report.
- The Mariners are not ruling out Upton and could construct a deal around pitching prospect Michael Pineda, according to Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (on Twitter).
- The Orioles are not pursuing Upton now, according to Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports (on Twitter).
- Towers is determined not to trade Upton within the NL West, according to Jon Heyman of SI.com (on Twitter).
- The Red Sox are on the "backburner" in the Upton talks after a mystery team made a strong push yesterday, according to Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. About half of MLB teams showed some interest in Upton, but the D'Backs aren't going to trade him unless they "win" the trade. Arizona wants four prospects in return and teams like the Yankees aren't comfortable parting ways with that much talent. The D'Backs and Red Sox have discussed expanded deals that involve at least one other team.
- The Red Sox are showing more interest than the Yankees, according to Jon Heyman of SI.com (Twitter link). He says the D'Backs would likely request Daniel Bard and Jacoby Ellsbury from the Red Sox.
Too much..lets be realistic..
so far, the names i’ve seen i would call “not enough”
Too little if you ask me…
This is just a gut feeling of mine…But I think the Royals are the mystery team…Either the Royals/A’s/Nationals/Twins/Reds
I am hoping (and thinking) it is the Nationals considering Rizzo was Asst. GM in Arizona when they drafted him.
I could really see that, but then again aside from the Red Sox, I think there see 19 other teams in Baseball that make sense for Upton and have the players to make a. Deal happen. Assuming its not a team in the NL West,
Yankees, Blue Jays, Red Sox, Orioles, Rays, Phillies, Nationals, Marlins, Braves, Twins, Tigers, Royals, White Sox, Reds, Pirates, Cubs, Astros, Cardinals, A’s, Angels, Mariners all make perfect sense for Upton.
Upton makes good sense for the Bucs, sure…but trading away the necessary pieces to make such a move makes ZERO sense for them. I get what you’re saying though.
Glad you get what I’m saying. It also makes zero sense for the Mariners, who might be the favorite. But I guess the whole point for these two teams is gathering up 3 or 4 little Justin Uptons and acquiring a big one. Like Meek/Tabata/Owens/Morris. I’d do that
As long as Ackley and Pineda aren’t part of the deal, I wouldn’t mind trying to get Justin Upton to the Mariners, he’d give them a STRONG OF and I’d imagine Saunders would be part of the trade along with someone like SS Nick Franklin and 1b Justin Smoak. If they trade Smoak, I would then go and try to get Big Donkey to play 1b/DH part time.
Yeah I agree, i feel like Ackley and Pineda should be our only untouchables..What if we did something like…Franklin, Cortes, Vargas, and saunders? That seems like it would actually be pretty fair, but at the same time, the dbacks don’t want fair. They want to win.
Ackley, Pineda AND Smoak should be off the table. Smoak hasn’t had enough time and you don’t trade away the guy that you gave up Cliff Lee for without giving him the time to see what he can do. That would be pretty dumb.
If the M’s can swing a deal with Kansas City for the blocked Kila Ka’aihue and plug him in at first, I can live with the M’s moving on without Smoak. If the M’s managed to win the posting on Nishioka, and he actually pans out transitioning to MLB, then I can live with the M’s moving on without Franklin or even Ackley or both. But minus those considerations, I’d be reluctant to part with any of those players and definitely not Pineda.
Wilmer Flores, Jenrry Mejia, Matt Harvey, Fernando Martinez. Sound fair?
Pass on that.
Two Triple-A starters with great talent/track records, an All-Star reliever who can close games, and a 22 year old left fielder who did quite well in his first partial season in the majors for a RFer? Makes no sense for the Pirates at all. They need pitching, and dealing 2/5 of your likely July rotation isn’t a great way to get it.
Considering Dunn and Willingham will likely be gone, there will be holes in that lineup that Justin Upton could fill quite nicely.
But it doesn’t fit in with the “stockpile talent” modus operandi that the Nationals have employed of late.
-wtk
Nope. Mystery team has Tigers written all over it. DD is master of the winter trade and he dealt with the D-backs last year. Plus the Tigers have the players and prospects to make it happen. Not to mention that they need a RF if they don’t resign Maggs. I could see a Galaraga/Raburn/Oliver/Wells/Sizemore/Furbush deal being to tempting for the D-backs to pass up.
We just found out it was the Blue Jays.
Just a feeling of your’s huh? Law said this the day this story broke.
Keith Law
Upton fits in KC
“The Royals make a lot of sense. Why not? They have a ton of minor league pitching depth, which, while fantastic to have, is always far from a sure thing because of injury risk. Acquiring Upton accelerates the rebuild, and they have nothing like him in their system, neither offensively or defensively. And they can afford the contract: He’s already signed to a reasonable deal. It’s just a nonconventional landing spot for Upton, who makes a ton of sense for a lot of clubs … including Arizona.”
Ellsbury and Bard? lol no ty g2g
just say no to trading ells and bard!
The White Sox can send their whole entire farm system and that still wouldn’t be enough.
Such a tough decision! He is so good, so young, and has all the potential in the world but do you really wanna sell the farm?
his contract isnt that club friendly.
Considering he doesn’t make over $10MM until 2014, I think it’s relatively friendly. By that time, with the tools this guy has, he could be a steal at $14MM a year.
Exactly. Thats why I don’t think any team is out of it…
The Phils for example, Domonic Brown/Jarred Cosart/Justin De Fratus.
The Marlins would be a good fit.
From your lips to RAJ’s ears.
Can’t see the Phils giving up their top two prospects….don’t think they are in the running…they will have great pieces in a couple of years, but right now they are limited at the AA/AAA level…unless Rizzoti has another monster year, he is a B prospect because of his age and defense…
As a Phils fans, I think all ofnthis Upton talk really effects Werth’s contract…if mKes him the third most valued OF, and he could actually be back with the Phils…thoughts?
As a Phils fans, I think all ofnthis Upton talk really effects Werth’s contract…if mKes him the third most valued OF, and he could actually be back with the Phils…thoughts?
Given his talent/potential, his contract is quite club-friendly. I would be more concerned with his health/durability. Make sure that shoulder is healed and he is 100% healthy before the deal happens.
It sounds to me like this is a non trade.. They are just fishing to see if a team gets foolish and is willing to drop their pants and bend over to get a supreme talent.
I think a trade of Snider/Drabek/Gose/Hutchinson > Bard and Ellsbury.
umm yah thats not even close lol
well duh…
I’m ready for an argument if it presents itself, but I think Mozeliak should at least keep an eye on Justin Upton.
No doubt. But the redsox could probably match that with prospects of their own. Again it’s all about how much your willing to pay. I doubt the jays would even pay that much.
According to John Lott, Drabek is untouchable and rightfully so. It looks like Snider is someone who they are going to build a package around. IM EXCITED!
I think an Ellsbury/Bard for J-Up deal would be plausible. I don’t see Theo and the Red Sox going beyond that player-wise, tho. If Towers wants more, I can see a third team becoming involved to provide players. I think this is a deal headed in the three-way direction anyway.
He would fit nicely in the middle of the Pirate lineup.
He would fit nice in ANY lineup.
about as nicely as a square peg in a square hole
Hey, now: Keep it clean.
yeah, but im thinking theyd ask for some tabata or alvarez…you willing to move either of those guys?
The Redsox would be better off keeping Ellsburry and Bard .Ellsburry is fast and is a good lead off hitter that can steal a ton of bases.Bard is stud, I wouldn’t trade him.Take Papelbon instead 🙂
Bard isn’t a stud. Ellsbury’s stock is down.
Oh, yeah, you’re right, 74.2 IP with a 1.93 ERA is just terrible and he is the worst pitcher on the Redsox.HA!!!
Josh Bard no… but I’d look at Daniel Bard’s numbers again before putting my foot in my mouth.
Besides being out with five broken ribs last year (compliments of Adrian “The Crusher” Beltre), when has Ellsbury ever been on the DL?
Do you always look something wrong in a post?Seriously.
The point is your remarks are inaccurate, and thus people are going to tell you that. Ellsbury got hurt last year and had 5 ribs broken. Before that, people had praised him for his willingness to play hurt. He’d dive after balls and get right back up and played seemingly everyday in 08 and 09. Of course, I didn’t look at the numbers and am going off of memory so maybe he missed 30 games.
Only when people post blatantly indefensible garbage.
As a Sox fan to give Bard and Ellsbury is a little high. Ells is a solid to above avg player in MLB. And for the numbers that upton has put up I don’t do that.
They’ll probably end up asking for Jose Iglesias too. Unless you’re Upton’s biggest fan there’s no good reason why you would want to give up that much talent for a player that hasn’t reached his potential yet.
Mystery team? Multi team deal? This is going to be fun to follow. Well as long as the Braves stay far away from KT and his crazy bidding war.
agree 100%
If you want 4 or 5 prospects you cant ask for any top prospects IMO, that would be a gross overpayment… If you want a top prospect you cant be asking for a haul of 5 players. . Brett Cecil, Alvarez, D’arnaud, Goins and Mastroianni for Upton.. Take it and go
Maybe its because I am not a Bosox fan, but Bard and Ellsbury for Upton doesn’t seem like an overpay to me. It really would depend on what else they ask for. If KT wants Iglesias as well then you hang up the phone.
I agree, if its just for Bard and Ellsbury sounds like a decent deal.
I see the only sticking point to this deal being Bard. He is lights out, cost controlled for a few more years, and they have Paps on the trade market. Ellsbury’s game is speed. He steals bases. He can run down a fly ball. Weak arm. And let’s face it, The Red Sox game has never been built around speed.
relievers are easier to replace then 23 year old borderline super stars who are under team control for 5 more years
Ells doesnt have a weak arm, you might be thinking of Damon who he replaced for having a strong arm, accurate? no he isnt going to throw out a guy trying to go to third from deep center but the ball gets to where it needs to quite quickly.
Realistically the only reason you hang up the phone if they ask for Iglesias is because of the carousel ride the Sox SS position has been the last 7 years. . He’s not exactly budding as an A prospect at this point, but does play good defense, his bat needs to improve though
“Good defense” is an understatement. Most scouts say the guy could be an elite fielder in the MLB as is. The only part of his game that’s suspect is his bat, and with the current state of MLB short stops, elite defense and a cold bat is still a hot commodity. Iglesias is the one guy in the Sox system I would be absolutely unwilling to move.
“elite defense and a cold bat is still a hot commodity”
Yeah just ask Adam Everett how hot a commodity he is
LMAO.. that was funny.
Upton is coming off an injury and a down year. How can his stock be worth four top prospects?
Because he’s a number one overall pick, 5 tool player and only 23.
Not even ROY HALLADAY could get that much for a team.
what are the 5 tools? I know that it means he’s a prototypical complete player that everybody wants but what are those?
speed, power, strong arm, glove, baseball IQ?
Speed, Arm-Strength, Hitting for Average, Hitting for Power, Defense.
They should add a 6th tool. moustache.
Hahahahahahahaha Concur.
It’s mustache, but your post gets a life from me.
no its actually moustache..lol
Edit: I’m sorry, I googled, turns out we’re both right.. apparently its different spelling in Canada..(seriously)
ahh was close. thanks^^
Average, power, speed, arm and glove.
Since when does being a #1 pick affect value?
They are asking for way too much from this one guy. D’Backs can keep him.
That is exactly the point. The D’backs are in the driver’s seat. They have no need to trade him. The only way they will is if they will be grossly overpaid. If they can get a Mark Teixeira/Dan Haren type haul (Feliz,Salty,Andrus, etc/Carlos Gonzalez, Chris Carter, Anderson, etc) then you pull the trigger. If not, you keep your potential superstar and build around him.
when you team’s bullpen is as useless as it gets and your team finished dead last, I wouldn’t exactly call Towers “in the driver’s seat”.
C’mon let’s be realistic here. Bard and Ellsbury wouldn’t even be close to getting it done. That’s just the starting point. It would have to be more than those two. If that trade happened Kelly will be a goner, too, maybe even Iglesias.
The Red Sox acquiring Justin Upton would create the biggest domino effect of the offseason. I personally don’t think that a package around Daniel Bard and Jacoby Ellsbury is too much to pay. You’ve got to give something to get something. Even though the Sox bullpen was weak in ’10, it seems like a no-brainer for them to go out and get Upton, even if the price is Bard. JD Drew isn’t getting any younger, and Upton signed long term (with a swing that is built for Fenway) seems like the perfect fit. Here’s that domino effect I was talking about.
-Sox save money.
-Sox downgrade in bullpen; need reliever.
-Sox become potential suitors for Rafael Soriano.
-Sox are backed into a corner; must tender / keep Jonathan Paplebon.
-Sox are out of Jayson Werth market.
-Werth loses his biggest suitor.
-Price on Werth goes down in limited market.
Obviously, that’s just speculation. The Sox have the money to go out and get Werth and Upton, but do they have the money to go out and get Upton, Werth, and Soriano, while upgrading their bullpen thoroughly as Theo Epstein said he would? Not sure about that. As for the actual trade?
Boston gets: Justin Upton
Arizona gets: Daniel Bard, Jacoby Ellsbury, Felix Dubront, and Casey Kelley.
Seems more than fair.
Deal looks good – ARI must put in Parker
“ARI must put in Parker”
Parker isn’t going anywhere…
No way does Theo Epstein give up his biggest chip to get Adrian Gonzalez or any other top tier talent. Justin Upton, at this point in his career, is not top tier talent. He’s shown little progress at the plate and hasn’t played more than 138 games. Bard, Ells, Doubront, and a mid-tier? Sure. Casey Kelly won’t be part of it. Theo wasn’t willing to give up Ellsbury and Lester for Johan Santana, why would be then turn around and use similar prospects for a player that isn’t on the same level (in terms of best at the position) as Santana?
Why Kelley and Doubront? Seems like overkill. Bard has great value with his youth (low salary) and skill set, much like Upton. As far as bullpen pitchers’ trade values go, Bard’s stock is about as high as anyone in the league (unless I’m missing someone). Ellsbury isn’t that bad of a loss assuming the Diamondbaks see him as a useful lead-off hitter and plus defensive outfielder.
Doubront seems like he could be a useful bullpen guy immediately, or a decent number 3 starter in the NL West. He is still very young, but is left handed with a good fastball and his other pitches are developing…. So why also include your number one pitching prospect in the whole system? Perhaps the Red Sox have been over hyping the kid, but we’ll have to wait and see. It seemed like nothing would entice them to trade Lester or Buccholz when they were Boston’s top minor league arms. It doesn’t seem like this would be any different. What’s more, it doesn’t seem necessary to include Kelley to complete a reasonable deal for Upton with the other players you mentioned and perhaps a throw in prospect in Kelley’s place.
Well we all know that Kelley from what they have said in the past when CC and Cliff were made available and other players over the last 2 years would be a deal breaker.
IMO because Upton is signed long term it most likely will take 2 young guys at the major league level and 1 top team prospect and 1 lower level fringe prospect.
That is a fair trade, but teams will be able to jump in and offer more. Especially in terms of one player individually who could/should be better.. good post though
Are you serious or trolling? Any two of those guys is worth Upton or more.
Are you serious or trolling? Why do people think that the D’backs are going to give Upton away? Like I said above, you can replace Kelly with any name that you want, as long as he is a prospect with a very high ceiling, but it’s going to take multiple prospects from a team that is willing to overpay for Upton. Kevin Towers isn’t thinking “fair trade.” He’s thinking “steal,” and it would take something along those lines to get a deal done. Red Sox fans are too narrow minded when discussing deals.
Redsox would pause when they hear the name Casey Kelley on Towers list.Other than that it seems like a good deal.
Why though? Can someone explain me Casey Kelly please.. I mean, I get that hes a good talent and could maybe stick as SS or as a P, so thats good ya, if he was on an NL team..
but as far as I can see, he has an ERA over 5 in AA, with a mediocre 7.7k/9-3.3bb/9 and -.9hr/9.. Why is everyone crowning him the second coming of Clay Bucholz? The guy barely tops 90mph on his fast ball.. i dont know, i dont get it. and im not being a dick, I’m really hoping someone enlightens me
Casey Kelly just finished his first full year as a pro ball pitcher, has an already good change up, great curve, and let’s not forget he’s 21 and in AA. In other words he has the tools to be a front end pitcher and he was put in a league where he was clearly going to be over matched. Context.
True, his stats don’t look that impressive at AA … until you consider that he was 20 years old. Usually 20 year-olds are at low A, but he blew low and high A away when he was 19. He has unusually good command of his fastball, curve and change for his age.
Basically that’s why he’s better than his raw stats look.
for starters he’s a pitcher they tried him at short but it didnt work out. as for the year he had he was on of the youngest players in AA this year. And his numbers were also not that great bc of his new found velocity which was topping out at 96mph. he had trouble with command bc of it. im a sox fan and i too belieave there hyping this guy pretty hard but the talent is there and for the most part the sox evaluate talent pretty well so if they say this guy is there #1 prospect it must mean something
Call me crazy but I think Theo would balk over Bard before Kelley at this point. Who gets you to Pap if Bard is gone?
I completely agree with your proposal. I always like your comments but this has to be a personal favorite…
If the Red Sox offered that…The Yankees would have to offer Joba/Montero/Gardner/Betances < Thats a lot.
The Marlins would offer Morrison/Nolasco/Hand/Ozuna
Royals would offer Butler/Simmons/Montgomery/Hardy
The Twins would offer Revere/Hicks/Gibson/Slowey
Tons of teams would have to bumb their offer up.
Haha. Thanks man. ^^
Theo would be fired if he made this deal. Since when did Upton become Pujols?
and now the sox are in a worst spot than they were last year. they need to add more than just soriano to the pen and while upton would be great to have and does fill a hole in the OF we still need to address catcher/3B
I’m not saying that they’re going to do it. I’m saying that’s what it would take to get it done. There are pros and cons to every trade.
Upton is 23, under contract for the next 5 years, but it’s at basically $10mm per year for the next 5. Do we really want to give up Bard + Ells + 2 more for this guy? That’s a huge pricetag for one player coming off a sub-par year for his standards. Given he’s only 23, we’ll have him through his prime, he’ll probably end up hitting 30 HR, driving in 90, and stealing 25/30 a couple of those years. I don’t know. Ells + Bard seems like we’re overpaying for this guy, but Bard’s value on our team is so much higher than it is in the trade market because our bullpen without him is so weak.
Totally agree. When you look at what this guy is going to realistically produce in the next 5 years does that match up with what you’re giving up for him?
My guess is no but I guess some other teams may think otherwise.
Bard and Ellsbury is too much. Adding two more top prospects just makes it silly.
It might be interesting if the Sox could send Papelbon and a sack of money in place of Bard. And maybe one or two guys who are second tier prospects. Lars? Reddick? Bowden? Navarro?
Oooh a mystery team! I love mysteries!
Well we know it isn’t Pittsburgh lol
Could see Tampa going for him – Garza and Wade Davis
Cardinals – Shelby Miller and minor-league-fecal-matter.
Get it done Mo.
It would take WAAAY more than that. I’d try to leave Miller out of it and center the deal around Rasmus…which I’m not for because when you look at the numbers I don’t see that big of a difference between Rasmus and Upton the in the long-run.
Outside of Miller and Cox, minor league fecal matter pretty much describes the rest of the minor league system. Think Mo’s gonna trade the entire Quad Cities franchise?
The lower levels of the minors are actually pretty promising now. It’s just Double and Triple A that are worthless. And by worthless I mean players that will never amount to much of anything in the majors even though they all made the minor-league playoffs last year.
What about the Phils as the mystery team? Doesn’t this seem like a Ruben Amaro type blockbuster? If he could unload Raul Ibanez, obviously eating some salary, it would kill two birds with one stone. He let’s Werth walk and has Victorino, Dom Brown, and Upton roaming the outfield.
Unless they’re the third team in that one rumor, can’t see them getting involved. We don’t have the level of prospects (in the upper minors) to acquire him.
lol do the phillies even have any prospects left in their farm??
The Phillies have a ton of prospects, they’re just a few years away.
I know, just kidding. They have the best lower level prospects in the league.. but I dont know if thats the type of haul towers is looking for
Nah, it’s definitely not what Towers wants. Lol
IMO there’s no way the Phils are involved unless Brown is in the package, sadly. It’d solve their RH bat problem, but at how much of a cost? I’d imagine Brown, Cosart, Worley, maybe Singleton as well. Too rich for my blood.
Yeah Dominic Brown would HAVE to be included in any deal. And Ibanez, even with eating money, has negative trade value to the D-Backs
Ells I don’t mind losing, Bard I do. Bard was the one bright spot in the pen last season. He was the one guy who would come out of pen for the Sox and make the fan base feel good about the lead.
Basically our best reliever, best base stealer, and our top 2-3 prospects for a guy who has only really shown a glimmer of his promise… call me crazy but I think that’s a little steep. If he was a sure thing, fine. But no matter how much people want to point out how good he could be, the jury’s still out and waiting.
The marlins could but one our top young relief pitchers in a trade. Maybe dan jennings, or jose ceda. Maybe a package of nolasco, gaby sanchez, jennings/ceda, chad james and maybe one more prospect could get it done.
I thought the first commandment of Loria was “Though shalt not take on more salary.”
Ha! Quite true. That’s what makes the John Buck pick-up so puzzling.
not when you consider that the prophet Cito said and I quote
“We want to get buck 20 Home runs so he can get a good contract for him and his family”
So true. I just never figured the Marlins to be the team to overpay him.
I also didnt think they would trade a 30 Hr hitting second baseman for a middle reliever and a super utility player..Just file it under “C” for curveball
And thus spaketh the Lord: “Thou shalt have thine 3 year contract.” And there was much rejoicing in the house of Buck…
For some reason I’m having flashbacks of Monty Python. “Thou shall throw thy Holy Hand Grenade..”
“They ate Robin’s minstrels, and there was much rejoice.. yaaaay.”
Good times.
I do like what was said earlier by a previous poster. Getting Upton would allow teams a much cheaper alternative to breaking the bank for Crawford or Werth. Only problem is, while it may not break the bank, it may break the farm.
I hope the mystery/the other team is the Reds and it becomes a three team deal. Preferebly with Ellsbury going to Reds somehow since we desperately need a leadoff hitter.
Mystery team in a 3 way deal?? I hope it is the Reds trying to acquire Ellsbury.
Reds Get: Ellsbury
Red Sox Get: Upton
D-backs get: Fransisco or Alonso, Leake, Bard, Dubront
Yes…thats exaclty what I was thinking
I hope you’re not a Reds fan… because as a Red Sox fan let me just say, you’re realllly overpaying for Ells.
I’m a Reds fan, and I don’t think thats overpaying at all for Ellsbury. Alolnso has literally no value to us. He’s blocked by Votto and incapable of playing any other position. He’s as a good as gone this off-season. Also, packaging him up with either Leake/Bailey/Wood to get Ellsbury if far from overpaying in IMO.
As you wish… on behalf of all Red Sox fans, we accept… but I’d rather lose Kelly than Bard.
Seriously?
Yeah, me too actually. Bard means more to the Sox than most people realize, and more than he would be worth in a trade. Pap is going to be gone after next year so Bard is 99% sure to be the closer, and he has been the one steady arm in the pen (yes I know that doesn’t mean he always will be) Kelley on the other hand has the potential to be a good-very good starter, however the key word is potential he could just as likely be a dud and never even make it to the big leagues, while Bard has already made it to the majors and proven he can deliver.
Just because Alonso does’t have value to the reds doesn’t depreciate his value on the market
Reds have a SERIOUS hole at the top of their order. Ells is a guy who can fill that hole pretty well. This offseason is going to be filled with “winners and losers” of trades since the FA market is weak and teams have needs that must be addressed. I would overpay from areas of depth (1B, SP) so it doesn’t hurt as much. I feel Ells is capable of producing years between 08 and 09, especially in the NL. 2010 I see as a fluke.
Look, I do believe Ells 2010 campaign was poor because of injuries… but giving up Leake and Alonso? You could trade Alonso alone for a young lead off hitter.
Every team knows Alonso has less value to us because of Votto. Alonso also hasn’t exactly killed the ball in his few appearances in the majors either. Good leadoff hitters are becoming even more rare. Unfortunately, promising 1B prospects are abundant. Leake is the pitcher I would be reluctant to give up. I would offer one of Leake or Bailey. Everyone knows the D-backs are going to need a ton to trade Upton. What I offered I believe would make the D-backs say yes. This trade fills our leadoff hole as well as gives us one of the best defensive OF’s in all of baseball with Ells in left, Stubbs in center, and Bruce in right. All 3 under team control for at least 3 more seasons. I’m working with the mentality to get something you must give something.
If you want trade Ells to the Reds for Alonso and try to work out your own trade with the D-backs. I’d be happy with that.
That would be the Reds overpaying not the Red Sox. Alonso and Leake are very good value for Ellsbury. And the Red Sox get to keep all their top prospects. They can replace Bard on the FA market and have young OF’s to replace Ells when Cameron is done.
reds don’t get enough.
All I can say is, just based on last year, a whole year of Upton has a hell of a better upside than Ellsbury’s occasional play. I really would rather keep Bard, but you have to sacrifice to win.
I love reading Red Sox fans quibble over trades and what’s fair for their team.
Dave, sorry man but the Phillies no longer have the prospects needed for this deal and Browne would be the centre piece I would assume.
Mystery team? How about the Jays? With a starting package of Snider and Stewart and or JP Arencibia.
I would do this for multiple years of 30 30 in the AL east
No Snider trade please, trade arms and catchers. anyone but Snider
sadly i like lunchbox as much as the next person does but he would be the centre piece of any deal. upton brings more to the table. snider is projected to be dh/1b in a few years. it is only a matter of time before his legs slow down with his large frame. And believe me when i say i like him as much as the next person does. Not much is more fun then sitting behind home plate asking him to hit me a hoogie!
Snider is a lot more athletic then you let on, football players stay mobile in to their 30’s no reason Snider can’t do the same with his body.. he does work hard.. and you know, meats don’t clash…
I just think, and i’m repeating myself at this point, that trading Snider away for Upton only makes you marginally better.. realistically, Snider was projected for a 25 HR season if he got 500 AB’s (factored from his 300 AB’s) I just don’t think getting a little bit better is worth it… Now landing Upton and having him and Snider terrorizing pitchers for the next 5 years.. that should be the goal.
snider and arenciba would be a decent starting point for me
I wouldn’t do it if I were the Jays … Only way getting Upton makes sense is if you are going to keep Snider and have a Snider-Upton-Wells OF for the next few years. . Jays don’t have the position player depth. I’d dangle Cecil, Stewart, D’arnaud and Arencibia before Snider.
Brian- Ever heard of Drew Stubbs???
Ever watched Drew Stubbs leadoff for an extended period of time?
As much as I wish Stubbs could figure it out leading off, he just does not perform well in that spot. He performed much better when moved down in the order.
Building off of what you said, Stubbs also strikes out too much and his BA will never be high enough to be consistently good leadoff hitter.
I prefer him further back in the order with the pop he has being a 20-25 HR player.
How about a 3 team trade? Send Justin Upton to Tampa Bay to replace Crawford and unite with his brother B.J. As part of the trade, Tampa Bay can send Jason Bartlett to Arizona (plus 3 or 4 other prospects). Arizona then sends Stephen Drew to St. Louis for Colby Rasmus. Those would be the main players in the deal + a bit more here or there. Colby gets out of St. Louis. St. Louis gets a shortstop that they covet. The Upton brothers get to play together, and everyone is happy?
Why not the Redlegs? We have Alonso who is useless to us because he is blocked for a long time. We can trade one of our stud catchers Mesorasco (sp?) or Grandal(sp?) and some of our plethora of starters. I have no idea if Bruce or him would play RF but that would be a situation I would love to have. Get a leadoff hitter and Phillips in front of a 3-4-5 of Votto, Upton, and Bruce would be downright scary
We wouldn’t have a farm system left after acquiring both Upton and a leadoff through trade. Plus who knows how much they are willing to spend. But you are right that lineup would be exciting to watch. I would love to see them do one of the two but I don’t see us mortgaging the farm for both. Ps…can’t trade Grandal until April 15, 2011 since he was drafted this past year.
It would be a heck of a gamble and I don’t see any way Jocketty would give away our whole farm for Upton. Thanks, I didnt know Grandal couldnt be traded until then. The way I see it though, until Alsonso learns a different position (if ever) he is a wasted asset. Plus we only need 1 of those catchers, so the Reds wouldn’t really lose anything besides pitching.
can’t trade him now put can trade a player to be named later that can end up being him
Can’t trade PTBNL in your own league.
-C
Can’t trade PTBNL in your own league.
-C
Phillies are the mystery team, Upton will replace Werth in RF. Domonic Brown will likely be included in the trade unfortunately.
No they aren’t.
That would be yet another mistake by Amaro, of course had he just parted with the package he did last winter for Halladay he would’ve had been able to put the right package together for Upton.
Unfortunately Amaro went the round about way to get two starters and depleted the higher levels of his farm system, thus leaving them out of the Upton sweepstakes or any other trade options.
Too bad, because the Phillies are getting old fast, and that window is shrinking.
I still think the Jays might have the right mix of major league ready prospects.
With the departure of Jamie Moyer, the Phils already got much younger lol
LOL, true.
I was referring more to a bu,nch of guys who are starting to look older then they are, knees and hips and hamstrings OH MY!
I know every team gets this injuries, I just think they seem older then they should.
That window is closing fast for them and had Amaro made the right trade the first time there would be more in the cupboard to make a move for an Upton or another player.
…and not have Roy Oswalt, leaving him a hole in his rotation.
So I want Halladay, but don’t want to give up the package the Jays want. So I send, all be it second tier perhaps prospects, 4 major league ready prospects for Lee. Now I still want Halladay so I bascially trade the 4 prospects, save Brown, for Halladay that I would have had to give up in the summer. That’s 8 prospects for two pitchers.Now I can’t afford to have both Lee AND Halladay so I trade Lee for a some prospects that scout aren’t to sure of.Now my team is struggling to keep up with Atlanta so I’ll trade MORE Prospects for Pitcher who isn’t as good as Lee right now (july 2010) AND COST more.So now I’ve dried my cupboard up with what teams like, major league ready prospects and I have holes to fill that I can’t because of money and lack of major league ready prospects.It’s not about who he ended up with, but he didn’t look at the road map when he thought he was taking a short cut home and ended up on a long winding road.Still a good team but used a lot gas up to be 3rd best.
– none of the 4 they sent to CLE has even been league-average. If you consider “mlb-ready” the same as “below-mlb-average”, then ok.
– they didn’t send 4 guys for Halladay, they sent 3…and Taylor looks like a bust.
– HOU paid the Phils $11m of Oswalt’s remaining $23m salary for the 1.5yrs he had left, so the Phils will basically be paying him $12m for 1.5yrs. The Phils pay $3m over the cost of a single season of Lee, and get Oswalt for 1.5yrs (and an Option yr at FAR less than Lee will cost).
The Phillies lost exactly 3 quality prospects in the course of these deals – Drabek, D’Arnaud, and Gose. For that they got a perennial Cy Young candidate for the next 5yrs, plus a second ace for $12m/1.5yrs, plus 3 iffy prospects. It’s hardly ideal, but it’s far from the huge mistake you’re insinuating it to be.
I think your missing the point, and looking at the glass half full.
It’s not about were they ended up, but how they got there.
And now with a lot holes and nothing makor league ready to trade except Brown. The Phillies don’t have much chips to play with.
In hindsight now, your evaluation is fair, 3 quality prospects, however ALL those prospects they did give up had some value otherwise Lee, Halladay and Oswalt wouldn’t have landed in Phillie.
I’m not saying it a “huge” mistake I just think Amaro took the wrong path to get there and it just might cost him. I think an extra set of major league ready prospects were traded out in the last 18 months. And for some teams, cough cough Cleveland cough cough that’s all they want.
basically what I’m saying is I think 3-4 extra prospects that the Phillies could have used to fill holes…..
anyways this is about Upton not the Phillies, who don’t have the parts
Fair enough.
You’re right though, the D-Backs are looking for guys on the cusp of the bigs, and the Phils don’t have that right now. Their next wave of quality is moving to AA next season, still at least a year from being mlb- or near-mlb ready.
funny how 3 aces get traded and all the quality prospects landed in toronto, even gose with aa’s creative trading ability. AA FOR MAYOR!
he only had to give up the best pitcher in baseball too
Ya because he was going to stay with the jays if he didnt right?…. for a forced move, he still got what he wanted… just took a few extra moves. i call that pretty damn good if you ask me
I think the best part of the trades were the flips, especially the foresight to dump Taylor off. Definitely looks good in hind sight
I love the idea of getting Upton, but hate the fact that it may cost Snider or Drabek…
If a deal can be done without them, no matter who, I would be okay with it.
Snider, may or may not turn into a 3-4 hitter in the lineup Upton is a 3 hitter.
Drabek could be really good, but would you have traded Halladay for a package including Upton?
I think you start with Arenciba OR Snider, Stewart and maybe a Marcum to have a young “Veteran” in the rotation.
I actually think Marcum could do really well in pitching in the NL West.
Upton’s not going to come cheap but some mix of the above players is what it will take to start with.
With the Yankees getting old and about to over pay for Lee, who I think is more likely to be a pitcher pitching well in his prime ALA Dave Stewart then he is to be a top5 pitcher for years 3-6 of his contract.
The Rays are about to slip BIG TIME, and the Red Sox are in some weird limbo area.
Now might be a good time to make such a deal.
An OF of Upton Wells and Davis would be the place were long fly balls in the gap go to die.
This is of course is all just wishful thinking from a Jays fan as I’m not going to pretend to think that the Jays land him.
Would be nice though!
Over the course of the year, Snider hit 14 HR’s in 298 AB, over a full season that projects to about 23-26.. Now thats with being jerked around, not being played everyday, being injured and batting lead off.. sounds good to me..I’m not saying I wouldnt do the deal, but I do it without Snider.. he’s our best young position player prospect, while Upton has a high ceiling.. You don’t get better by swapping out young parts for young parts.. The goal should be to add more pieces to Snider, Lind and the rotation..I would trade Marcum, Arencibia (because of catching depth) Cecil, Stewart but I dont trade Snider for lack of depth reasons… Realistically trading Snider and Marcum for Upton will make us worse not better. having an Davis in the outfield is lackslustre and doesn’t smell like post season to me.. I’m firm with my beliefs that you identify the pieces you want to build around and you add to them, never subtract.
marcum did very well in the al east as our ace (pitching against other teams top pitcher) he undoubtedly can do the same anywhere else in the league. I do not think he would be in the package from the jays. My thoughts are as follows:
Snider – Rzep – Arencibia – Mills – Ray
Snider has to be in the mix –
Rzep can step in right away and contribute as a #3 or 4 for dbacks
Arencibia – potential starting catcher – maybe not as good as montero but no slouch either and ready to step in and be a part of a tandem
Mills has end or rotation potential has done ok when called upon last couple of years.
Ray – hard throwing 96-97 bullpen help – he did very well in that role at the end of last season for the blue birds.
Robbie Ray couldn’t throw 96 if Pedro Martinez was guiding the ball out of his hand
Marcum doesn’t throw hard enough for the AL East where hitters are dangerously patient with off speed pitchers working the corners.
No way Snider AND Arencibia are in the same package.
Marcum has one of the best changeups in the game, it offsets the fact that he doesn’t throw as hard… I just want to see him in the NL because he’s a great hitter, I saw him take batting practice once, he was squaring up the ball better then some of the everyday starters
Look at his numbers against Tampa, Boston and NY 3 teams who are, like I said, dangerously patient with off speed pitchers.
I dunno. Halladay doesn’t throw hard and he manhandled the AL East just fine.
LOL, not sure this post even deserves a reply.
Sorry, let me correct myself Marcum doesn’t throw a 92-94 cutter. His fastball tops off at 89, not enough it the AL East.
One needs to be able to blow a hitter away sometimes in the AL East. Ask the millions of Red Sox fans what Youkills does to off speed throwing pitchers. Well most of that lineup and ask Yankee fans about Tex, jeter and ARod and more do to off speed hit the corners kind of pitchers.
Your argument was soft throwers get eaten alive in the AL East. Don’t change it to your benefit.
Conquered. Moving on.
EDIT: Should also say that Halladay throws a 91-92 cutter. Solid effort though.
LOL, nice try there vocabulary 101. Go back read it again, then again. Then ask your literate friends to read and translate it for you.FTW
What your missing is the humor in my second paragraph. And that yes Marcum doesn’t throw hard enough to beat the Yankees and Red Sox on a consistent basis. Not enough to be a front of rotation pitcher in the AL East.
However his changeup and pitching to the corners would probably do really well in the light hitting NL West
I’m not getting dragged into any spitting contest with a simpleton, and I have no idea why you’re calling me vocabulary 101, nor do I care, but someone who can’t even spell Youkilis has no right to speak of such things.
Still conquered. Moving on.. again.
Sorry your right I meant simple english comprehension.Simpleton? please your not even sure what your discussing and just disagreeing for the sake of it.The fact that your completely wrong about Halladay’s cutter is your first mistake in this conversation. He throw’s actually around 89-90 on regular. BUT cranks it up to 94-95 when needed. Something Marcum can’t do and something that hurts him when facing the Yankees and red Sox, but hey what does this simpleton know, maybe somebody should look up the stats…..But your right no need for me to get in to a disagreement with an ill informed fan like yourself.
I can’t seem to link you to article on this very discussion from earlier in the season.Altough it doesn’t exactly agree with me on Marcum, who I should point out I like very much and was only stating he would do much better in the NL west then the AL East with his change up and off speed. Any how the article talks about what I was trying to touch on.
It’s a SI article written by Verducci titled The Blue Jays blueprint for success.
dascual you really something
Thanks, your two cents on this subject are enlightening.
that is the same tom that said jays would be cellar dwellars in mlb for 2010 right?
haha – Mike Mussina baby – lots of movement not much overpowering did just fine in the al east
LOL, best response yet.
Mussina potential HOF vs Marcum
Mussina playing for the Yankees I refereed to Marcum struggling against.
Mussina that`s retired.
Look I get it Marcum is a good pitcher, however he struggles in situations against the better team in the AL East when he needs to rear back and throw some heat.
The Yankees AND Red Sox are very good hitters against pitchers like Marcum. Not a knock on Marcum just a complement on hitters from those teams. This is not just my opinion but the numbers show it. The majority of off speed pitchers struggle against the very patient hitters with a very good eye at the plate of the New York Yankees and the Boston Red Sox.
If you guys what to take that as a knock on Marcum, Fine.
If you want to compare Marcum to one of the top players to ever play game, so be it.
Hey if you want to call me names and such, I could care less.
The facts however are the facts and Marcum not having over powering stuff hurts him when pitching against those teams and those players as they are built now.
PS is there anybody EXCEPT Bob McCowan that didn’t say the Jays would finish last?
East Coast Baseball” to understand the challenge. Anthopoulos and Hoyer agreed that to survive in the AL East you have to load up on power pitchers, particularly in the rotation. Pitchers who rely on finesse or getting hitters to chase pitches out of the zone don’t play well against patient teams such as the Yankees and Red Sox.
“We talked about how you need pitchers who can get strikeouts and strikes in the strike zone,” Anthopoulos said. “All the lineups are really selective and will make you come into the zone. That puts a premium on the ability to get strikes in the strike zone.”
I don’t know if I agree with you about Marcum… But with the type of arms and bodies the Jays have drafted the last 2 years, its hard to argue that they aren’t going for that certain ‘type’ of pitcher you quoted.
You do realize that Mussina pitched most of his career for the Orioles and NOT the Yankees right? And as far as power pitchers being essential to AL east success, go ask AJ Burnett how much he likes the east.
Everybody does know they are comparing Mussina to Marcum correct?
Mussina who played 10 for Baltimore and 8 for the Yankees. Mussina who finished under .500 only once. Mussina who could rear back and throw a heater over 91-92 when needed. Mussine who walked very little and K’d a lot more. Mussina who is probably going to the HOF one day.
Marcum good, not over powering and that hurts him against the likes of Boston and the Yankees. Plain and simple. Look it up if you are all still so stubborn to believe otherwise.
Boston fans think they should get everything for nothing.Bard,Ells average at best.
if you actually look at the numbers, upton and ells are very close…Ells has way better speed and much better SB percentage..Upton is only better at SLG and hr..Oh yeah..and striking out a TON…
Speed and stolen base percentage? That’s your argument for equality? Upton’s power/average/defense slamdunks Ellsbury’s speed on the basepaths. No comp.
Upton’s career average is .272 Ellsbury’s is .291
Upton has put up 7.7 WAR Ells? 7.7 (in 100 less games)
Upton’s UZR=6.1 Ells’ =15.1
Upton’s UZR 150= 2.4 Ells’ =6.9
Upton’s Fielding%=.962 Ells’ =.998
Upton’s positional value= -18.1 Ells’= -.9
Upton’s value in $=33.4m Ells’=34.1m
I would say, according to fangraphs, Ellsburys average/defense “slamdunks” Upton’s. I’m not saying that Ellsbury is better or more valuable than Upton, simply that you are wrong. If you look at their 2009 numbers they really are very close to the same in almost every way (2009 is Upton’s “career year” thus far) the only major differences to speak of are Upton strikes a lot more, while having a higher SLG% and more HR’s while Ells walks more and steels tons more bases
In 2009, each player’s career year, Upton’s OPS was 130 points higher. He ran a higher OBP even with all the strikeouts, and he hit 18 more home runs. The best part is: he scored only 10 fewer runs in 100 less at-bats hitting further down the line-up for a less potent offense.
And he’s four years younger! Do you get that? Do you see the difference?
Those “tons more bases” that Ellsbury steals don’t accomplish nearly as much as you want them to. They certainly don’t push him across the plate enough to bring it up– only 94 runs scored in 625 ABs hitting lead-off for the Red Sox? Weak!– and what other reason would advancing a base via the stolen base be worth anything? Rousing the fans?
Upton does everything Ellsbury does– as long as you realize that steals have to translate into runs scored to be worth anything– and much more, and he’s doing it at a much younger age.
Defensively, we’ll see where Upton is when he’s 27. He’s got four years to get those tools up to full potential.
I was simply trying to show you that you were wrong about Upton’s average and defense being way better than Ellsbury’s and that they actually are pretty close as far as their skill sets go aside from speed vs. power, that’s not to say that Ellsbury is as valuable as Upton – he’s not – Upton is younger, under control longer, and has more upside and I recognize that but to this point in their careers they have been similar types of player aside from the power/speed differences.
On a side note using runs score to judge a players talent isn’t the best idea, because short of home runs you have to rely on someone else and their talent to actually drive you in, not completely because things like extra base hits and stolen bases can make it more likely that you get driven in but a major part of it relies on someone else.
Runs might not be the best determinant of a player’s worth, but what else are those stolen bases contributing toward? You cannot measure the “pressure” a stolen base puts on a pitcher– if it does at all– so all you can measure is the end result. Stolen bases are cool, and indeed advance a runner closer to home plate…. they just don’t make a decent player great. And seriously, Ells has the Red Sox line-up hitting behind him– an MVP directly behind him. He should be scoring some serious runs.
Comparing current stats just isn’t fair, either. Ellsbury’s advanced age is too large of a gap to bridge. Ellsbury got to go to University for three years and debuted in MLB at 24. Upton had 100 fewer minor league at-bats and was in MLB before his 21st birthday.
To compare WAR is silly. One guy is entering the league late if anything, while the other is thoroughly precocious. Would you be comparing WAR if Upton had honed his craft in college and been brought up at the same age as Ellsbury?
Everything about Upton is better than Ellsbury because he’s so young– speed aside. Upton’s potential is the deciding factor; it simply slamdunks Ellsbury. They are not similar players now or ever. What you are seeing is one guy figuring it out and the other guy operating in full form. The stats aren’t doing it justice, yet, although they certainly indicate that in the near future this argument will be silly.
To say that because Upton will likely be better in the future you can’t compare their stats now is wrong, and that is what the original poster did he said that right now they are very similar players which as of right now they are. Upton may be better for his age but that doesn’t change the fact that the production (aside from the power numbers) is very similar. Upton in all reality is a better player now and I would rather have him on my team than Ellsbury but when you said that his average and defense slamdunk Ellsbury’s you were wrong, to this point in his career they have not even been as good let alone way better than Ells, regardless of what they will be in the future. You can’t change your argument from they are better now to they will be better someday and then tell me I’m wrong.
The original poster compared Ells speed to Upton’s power as if they were equal talents. This is wrong.
I may not have been specific enough in saying “Upton’s power/average/defense slamdunks Ellsbury’s speed on the basepaths”, leaving interpretation open. I can see how it could be easily construed to meaning Upton’s stats are better in the batting average and defense CURRENTLY, which is my fault. I was in fact stating it as an overall measure of talent, with future tense connotations.
Perhaps my lack of clarity has provoked our little back-and-forth. Still, I stand behind my main point that Ellsbury’s speed hasn’t any place in the argument of equality between the players. Upton’s big bat speaks much too loudly.
Fair enough, I can agree with that. While I think Ellsbury’s speed does have a place in the conversation it is only because he is one of the elite base stealers in the game and it doesn’t make up for the power of Upton who is clearly the better ballplayer.
Boston fans over rate average players as some kind of superstars. Bard, and Ells ave. at best if not below ave.
a guy who throws 100mph for strikes is not below average – he is at worst just above average. i am a jays fan who’ve seen our batters at mercy a numerous amount of times against him. when you see him warming up you sink in your chair as you know what he brings to the mound.
bard and ells are both above average..not elite, but def above average..I think Upton is a bit over rated..4-5 players? hes def not the second coming of Junior as far as i can see..
I really don’t see the Mariners giving up Michael Pineda for Upton. They know they need better pitching and defense to compete in the AL West. You never know though. The Mariners are known for making bad trades.
I really, really hope the M’s stay out of this one. They need more pieces, not less.
It’s just a matter of time before Kenny Williams gets in on this.
Would Floyd, Beckham, Viciedo, and Mitchell be a good offer?
Would be a GREAT offer for the Dbacks, and a TERRIBLE deal for the White Sox. Floyd, Beckham, and a low lever minor leaguer should be enough. But certainly not Floyd, Beckham, Viciedo, and Mitchell. That’s a proven, cheap starter, and 3 promising young players of ages 24, 22, and 21. Kenny Williams would get reamed for that.
I’m a White Sox fan, but come on, there’s no way that Floyd, Beckham, and a low-level minor leaguer is enough to land us Justin Upton. That’s ridiculous.
If it’s not, then hang up. You realize that Gordon Beckham was being asked for straight-up in a deal for Prince Fielder, right? And that wasn’t enough. Now, I agree that Upton has a better contract that Fielder, and is a more well-rounded player, but Upton has yet to have a great year yet. In any trade, you are trading on his potential. Now if you add in a solid, cheap, #3 guy, who could easily be a #2 guy in the NL, and another minor leaguer, I think that’s a pretty fair price. Now, the Dbacks are probably not looking for a “fair price” and want to be overpaid for Upton, but that’s where I would draw the line on Kenny Williams’ end.
So Upton has yet to have a great year yet and you are trading on his potential…but can’t you say the same about Beckham? And when it comes to potential, I’d take Upton 100 out of 100 times. I love Beckham, but you can’t make an argument for not trading Beckham, then in the same argument say that Upton hasn’t had a great year yet. Let me tell you, for a player that young, those “not so great” years have been pretty impressive.
And it appears to me that Gavin Floyd is going to be moved because as you said, he’s a very good pitcher with a very cheap contract. He’s going to bring back value in return. To say he could “easily” be a #2 guy in the NL might be overstating it a little bit. To be a #2 guy, you have to win big games. What was Floyd’s record against Minnesota last year? Oh yeah, it was 0-4 with an 8.06 ERA and a 2.14 WHIP. Against Cleveland? 0-1 with a 11.57 ERA and a 2.57 WHIP. Against Kansas City? 2-2 with a 4.72 ERA and a 1.50 WHIP. Against Detroit? 0-1 4.50 ERA and a 1.83 WHIP. Call me crazy, but if a solid, cheap #3 guy sucks against his own weak division, I’m more than happy to move him for Upton.
And if you get Upton, doesn’t that ease the loss of Jared Mitchell? With Rios and Upton in CF and RF, I think you can afford to find a LF via free agency. Viciedo is a good hitter, but he’s extremely overrated by us White Sox fans. He doesn’t take walks, and he has no natural position.
Ok, you are right about Beckham being traded based on potential as well. And Floyd did bad against bad teams in the ALcentral, but did well against the good teams. 0.00 ERA vs. ATL, 1.50 vs. BOS, 2.70 vs. NYY, 3.86 vs. TAM. Floyd has done very well vs. Yankees and Red Sox over his career, and that’s a pretty big stage.
Mitchell is someone whose potential is probably even higher than Beckham, but yes, I support having Upton would pretty much mean he isn’t needed as much. The thing that worries me the most is cost though. Upton will get real expensive towards the end of the his contract, whereas Floyd and Beckham will be real cheap for a while. I guess I wouldn’t be outraged if we traded Floyd, Beckham, and Mitchell, but I would rather we not.
I hear ya. I haven’t even heard of KW being interested in Upton, so I’m just putting scenarios together in my head. I doubt anything ever comes to fruition.
Lol at Upton is a more well-rounded player than Fielder. Depends on context I suppose! Fielder appears much rounder to me!
Upton has yet to have a great year??? Go look up his 2008 season where his line looks like .300/.366/.532 with a .899 OPS and 26 HR. All at the age of 21. That is a great year.
And you’re getting back potentially one of the top 3 players in the entire game. Don’t be such a homer.
HA! Rosenthal. Give me a break. So Towers wants Ells + Kalish + Bard + Rizzo, or some combo of that stature, regardless 3 MLB ready players, 2 of which are stand outs, yet the Mariners can build a deal around a MiLB pitcher?? Please, Ken, please.
Jays are getting him though so you don’t have to worry. Kk?
ha ha ha! gotta love the jays fan starting it up with a sox fan
Just like the Jays were getting Uggla??
As a Jays fan, I was hoping they wouldn’t right from the beginning. Just another 1-dimensional player.
Nice try though.
I don’t think the Jays pursued Uggla as hard because he doesn’t fit in with AA’s vision as much as Upton would. High-valued young talent locked up for many years who could help make them a perennial playoff team. Uggla I think was only going to come in for a year and then swapped at the deadline or left to be signed for picks. That’s why AA offered so little.
We tried to give them decent prospects, Marlins said it was too much so they sent him to the braves
Pineda might be the best pitching prospect in baseball. None of those Red Sox are the best anything, or even close, really. It’s quality over quantity.
Since when has the “best pitching prospect” been worth anything?? Greg Miller 2004, Liriano 2006, DiceK 2007, Joba Chamberlain 2008. All were the “top pitching prospects in baseball” ranked by Baseball America. I wouldn’t trade Upton for all 4 of those players. I would much, MUCH rather have Bard as to Joba, DiceK, or Liriano.
So, Mystery team is Toronto………Snider, etc….they are loaded.
Not sure they are, just wishful thinking by some of us fans.
Uh, no they are.
I noticed to that 10 minutes after I posted that, that Kenny ken ken reported it to be so. ThankS!
Everyone knows ‘Mystery Team’ is Toronto’s other name..
Alex Anthopolous, International man of mystery
I know I am a biased sox fan but trashing Ellsbury and Bard as below average and overrated is just wrong. Ellsbury has led the league in steals in his only full two seasons, exclude injury 2010 years with a decent OBP over .350. Bard led the league in Holds, and throws 97-100 consistently in the strike zone. There are some, but not a lot of lead off and 8th inning guys I would take over them.
Stolen bases are of minor importance. They mean less than BoSox fans want to admit. It’s all about the hitting percentages, potential for growth, and defense. Ellsbury just isn’t that special in most regards.
And Bard is a reliever.
Yeah. Stolen bases meant nothing when Ells and Hall stole 4 bases combined in our game vs the Yankees when we were down a run in the 9th, Ells got a hit, stole 2nd, stole 3rd, scored on Bill Hall’s single, who then stole 2nd, stole 3rd, and scored on a sac fly to win the game. Who cares about stolen bases and generating runs.
That was actually Kalish and Hall but your point remains the same.
Stolen bases are of minor importance………….. It seems like you don’t play baseball but just watch it. In the case of Ells stealing 50+ bases a season, that means his singles become doubles and his doubles become triples~~ 50+ times a season. What’s the difference between Upton hitting extra bases hits and Ells hitting for less but stealing to go to extra bases?? NONE~~ Also, Speed is less susceptible to slump than Power~~ So stop saying Stolen bases are of minor importance because that makes you look very stupid~~
thank you
Also hitters get better pitches to hit when Ellsbury is on base. Stolen bases are underrated.
No, not underrated. Nope.
Stolen bases are certainly not underrated. Every fantasy baseball guru wannabe geeks over the stolen base.Problem is, if you aren’t scoring more runs, what’s the point? Ellsbury isn’t scoring a lot of runs hitting at the top of one of the best line-ups in the league, regardless of “doubles into triples” and other non-sense. Stolen bases are fine. They help. But so many of you are basing a players worth on his stolen bases and I’m here to tell you they’re of minor importance. There are other much more valuable statistical contributions in the game of baseball. Look at what Rajah Davis just fetched in trade. That guy stole 50 bases last year. He’s worth two meh relief prospects. Wanna-wa-na-na.
So Tim, is ‘Mystery Team’ the new label for Toronto?
Wow, I called that one.
Go get him Alex, and dont be afraid to trade anyone.
Upton is a better talent than any of players we currently have. And I would definitely trade Snider if it meant getting Upton. would be great to hang on to him, but I would not let it stop a trade if it came down to it.
Anybody but Snider.
I will trade any Blue Jay other than Snider.Lind, Drabek, JP Arencibia, Rzep is what I’d start with. If Arizona wanted proven starter, go with Cecil over Drabek.
wow arizona sure hopes u take over for AA SOON… thats a one sides traded if i ever saw one, WAYYYYYY too much for upton. Lind and Drabek and Jp is already too much. your trading a proven -20-30 hr hitter, possible #1-2 starter and a possible big power catcher… and thats not even including rzep… and cecil is even more of a rip! how can u trade lind , jpa AND cecil omg , talk about draining the future core of this team.
Obviously Cecil and Drabek would be huge losses but I have no problem dealing Lind and JPA. I see Lind as full-time DH (hopefully Arizona will think they can stick him in LF) and D’Arnaud, Perez waiting in the wings in a few years will surpass JPA. Whereas I think Justin Upton could be one of top 3 players in the game..
Does Lind have enough value after 2010 to constitute him being a valuable trade piece? It’s a smart idea though to dump some salary to accommodate Upton’s better.
Lind, Stewart, Perez, Rzepczynski, Thames? That’s my wishful thinking, but it’d probably have to look more like Snider, Stewart, Arencibia.
As good as Upton is, trading Snider, Arencibia, Stewart.. would leave the Jays in a poor position to surround Upton with more talent until he nears the end of his contract.. wouldn’t the point be to get upton in the same lineup as Snider?? Snider and Arencibia are currently the Jays 2 top position player prospects, if you take them out, even replacing them with Upton, you aren’t going to be any more competitive in the next 2 years as you would if you keep them
Agreed. If there was a way to obtain Upton without giving up Snider, Arencibia or Cecil I’d be all over it.
I’d give up Cecil because we have arms to replace him, I’d give up Arencibia because we have D’arnaud and Perez. For 2011 we may need fillers, but AA seems to be good at that.
Don’t expect those 4 players in that post. Lol. That’s a little too much wishful thinking.
Give lind JPA marcum and rez
Not enough.
sigh, thank you thank you..Finally someone who gets the fact that a deal involving Snider is counter productive.. Sure we’re getting the better player, but is a Davis-Upton-Wells outfield really anything to be excited about??Travis Snider is my only untradeable player right now. I’d send them Romero before I sent them Snider.. not because Snider is better, but because Romero is more replaceable based on the state of the Jays farm system. and i know there are people thinkin oh well Upton Plays Sniders position so its a wash.. no its not because there are 2 corner outfield positions, so it still leaves a hole.I would be comfortable with this:1 of Cecil or Marcum1 of Alvarez or Stewart1 of Arencibia or D’arnaud2 of Mastroainni, Thames, Goins, Mills, Litsch, CooperIf they are adamant about wanting Drabek they getDrabek1 of Arencibia or D’arnaud2 of Mastroainni, Thames, Goins, Mills, Litsch, Cooper
I think most teams would much rather take Cecil than Marcum, and so would I. There are noticeable differences in age and health history there. I thinks Marcum is great, but certainly Cecil has a lot more trade value.
I like the enthusiasm, but I have to agree with grownice that this is too much.
Bard is promising, but Ellsbury is already 26, his numbers have been declining and he can’t stay on the field. He is a bit risky as a the centerpiece of a trade for a 23-year-old stud outfielder who is already far batter than he is. And you don’t center a trade for a premium up-the-middle player with a reliever. If Towers is as smart as people think he is, he has to get one of Kelly, Iglesias or Rizzo, and a couple more upside arms.
This isn’t an aging, over paid OF. Upton is really young, really good, and has a very reasonable contract. They should ask for and get the moon.
Towers has already said he wants major league ready players.. that’s probably why he would be asking for Bard over Kelly, as foolish as that may be. (Although Bard is pretty good)
Bard is damn good. Probably the young, cheap replacement for Papelbon.
But a closer – especially an unproven one – is just not as valuable as a
starter.
When you talk about players who will cost you the farm, this is one of them.
On Nov 18, 2010 1:01 PM, “Disqus”
Last time I checked, MLB was a team sport. Arizona was 65-97 in 2010 in a weak NL West. Boston, with multiple critical injuries, finishes @89-73 in a tough AL East. Now, who should be negotiating from a position of strength. Certainly not, Kevin Towers, certainly not with Boston.
Trades are, in theory, supposed to be equally beneficial to both teams (or all participating teams). Will someone, please inform Mr. Towers if this? IMHO, Upton, for Ellsbury is an even trade, forget throwing in 2-3 major league ready prospects to boot. That is, of course and unless Mr. Towers wants to sweeten the pot with 2/3 major league ready prospects of his own. Anything less makes Theo look like a jerk, which of course he is not….
Good thing for DBacks fans you don’t run the team.
Any knowledgeable baseball person, who hasn’t just had a fifth of Jack
Daniela, would not consider Ellsbury the equivalent of Upton.
Anyway, if the Sox think that’s the case, why are they even inquiring?
What’s Jack Daniela?
Jack Daniel’s crazy sister. The one who thinks Ellsbury is as good as Justin
Upton.
LOL Ellsbury straight up for Justin frickin Upton. OH and you want the DBacks to add prospects now? Red Sox fans make me laugh.
You must be Justin’s cousin…. 🙂
Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Keep dreaming, moonie..
Lol. Next you should ask him about business ethics!
Lol. Next you should ask him about business ethics!
“Ellsbury is already 26, his numbers have been declining and he can’t stay on the field.”
Lol wut? Last year he got crushed by Beltre and had 5 broken ribs. Before that his stats were higher in nearly every category than the previous year. Other than the broken ribs, when was Ellsbury “not able to stay on the field”?
You could say the same about Upton. He’s never played 140 games in any year at any level. And his stats last year were down. What’s the difference except for your bias.
I’m not saying Ellsbury is as good as Upton. He’s not. But your statement is not supported by the facts.
I am biased because I don’t think Ellsbury is a great player?
Based on…the fact I don’t agree with you?
You’re right. He put up two pretty good seasons. But he has been hurt, and I
am not the only person who has brought up his durability.
If the Sox think the same as you, they won’t trade him. Especially since he
is paid so little. But if they trade him, that speaks louder than any of us
“biased” detractors.
Oh – and building a trade around Michael Pineda? Is that a joke?
In what way would that be a joke?
A B prospect with a injured pitching arm = not worthy of being the
centerpiece of a trade for a very good major league CF with worlds of
upside.
When you think if it, it actually isn’t. funny at all.
I agree with you. But Upton isn’t a CF.
That’s true. Right field, but he is capable of playing center.
Sorry dude, but you probably should have paid attention to 2010. Pineda was a breakout monster this year and it’ll be a crime if he isn’t a top 5 pitching prospect when the 2011 rankings come out. He also isn’t injured. He spent a lot of time on the DL in 2009 because the Mariners were handling his sore arm with kid gloves. He came back this year and pitched 140 innings, no problem, no soreness. That’s only because the team shut him down. He also hasn’t pitched an inning of ML ball. He has 6 years of club control and #1 starter upside. I’d say that’s about what the D’backs are looking for as a headliner. Not to saying they won’t want about 4 other guys along with Pineda though…
If I was Seattle, my TOP offer would be Pineda, Franklin, Saunders and Aardsma. If that’s not enough, the price is too steep.
So a 4.76 ERA in Triple A, coupled with an elbow injury is a breakout year?
Maybe he has loads of potential, but he’s only shown something in AA. And
the knock on him has been no real secondary pitches.
Potential, but tons of ifs.
Sorry – that’s not what I would consider a trade centerpiece for a player
like Upton (who is only a few years older)
He’s no Brandon Morrow.
Sorry dude, but you probably should have paid attention to 2010. Pineda was a breakout monster this year and it’ll be a crime if he isn’t a top 5 pitching prospect when the 2011 rankings come out. He also isn’t injured. He spent a lot of time on the DL in 2009 because the Mariners were handling his sore arm with kid gloves. He came back this year and pitched 140 innings, no problem, no soreness. That’s only because the team shut him down. He also hasn’t pitched an inning of ML ball. He has 6 years of club control and #1 starter upside. I’d say that’s about what the D’backs are looking for as a headliner. Not to saying they won’t want about 4 other guys along with Pineda though…
If I was Seattle, my TOP offer would be Pineda, Franklin, Saunders and Aardsma. If that’s not enough, the price is too steep.
First of all, great grammar. Second of all, Pineda is not a B prospect.
You are right. Proper gammar is of utmost importance on a baseball rumors
message board.
To say Bard AND Ellsbury would not be good enough components for this trade is absolutely absurd if you’re including prospects such as Kelly, Doubront, Rizzo, etc.
Granted Bard and Ellsbury don’t immediately equate for Upton’s potential, but both are still developing into fantastic ball players and the bright prospects the Red Sox are more than likely offering should absolutely compenstate as well. Get a grip D’Back fans…
lol realjustinupton on twitter: “What’s up twitter followers? Anyone heard any good trade rumors lately? Lol #sarcasm #dbacks”
You had to figure this was going to piss him off.. send the link to AA it may lower his value
maybe hes actually just having fun with it? its out of his control lol how one earth would that lower his trade value!?
because right now the dbacks don’t have to trade him, they can get overpaid or they can keep him.. If Upton is upset with the fact that he’s being dangled, he could throw a hissy fit and demand a trade, then the Dbacks HAVE to move him. theres a difference, trust me, I’m a doctor.
He’s not throwing a hissy fit, he’s just joking around
thats why i said IF
a doctor leaving a reply to every single comment people make this time of day makes me wonder why so many people die in this country…… lol
good one.. you must be one of the writers of two and a half men with that whit
Nope~! but good try though~~
Drabek/Stewart/Perez/Alvarez = Justin Upton. That would be a major haul for ARZ, but the Jays have the depth to do it.
If they want MLB-ready only: Drabek/Rzepczynski/Arencibia
That’s not close to enough for Justin Upton. And now that I think about it, don’t the DBacks have Montero locked up for a few years? No need for JPA.
anything including drabek or snider is a bad trade for jays imo,its too early to give on those guys… and they are still way cheaper then upton.
100% Drabek is not gonna be in that trade. If anything it’ll be Snider at the head of that trade at the most.
Just asked Keith Law about this.. his answer was this: “Klaw
(1:31 PM)
I would think that Towers would start with one of the major league arms – Marcum or Romero, most likely. If I’m Towers I aim high and ask for Snider too, plus two good prospects. Why not? You’re trading an insanely valuable guy.”
bhahaha maybe if they slipped aa some roofies that conversation MIGHT last more then 10 seconds.
Romero, Snider, and (2 good prospects) Stewart and D’arnaud….for UptonLOL okkkkk keith law! Hullo asked what you would give up for Upton NOT Albert Pujols
Law is just saying what Towers expects it to take. From everything going on so far, Towers’ demands are ‘ridiculous’. Might as well start high right?
Stewart & D’Arnaud are two TOP prospects, not good ones, especially when the deal already includes Romero & Snider. Law had both in his preseason top 100 prospect list so he clearly values them.
That being said, I wouldn’t give Romero AND Snider for anyone. Romero will make 30m over the same time frame that Upton makes 50m (2011-2015), so Upton would have to be a heck of a lot better than Romero to make up that 20m in value right there. And Romero had the better WAR in 2010. Law’s suggestions here are quite puzzling.
I wouldn’t even consider trading just Romero + Snider for Upton. In fact, why would Romero be involved in an Upton trade at all?
Upton probably has better trade value than Albert Pujols actually…so what is your point?
probably not.
2-3 mlb ready talent and 2 top prospects? That’s it? Sure. What else do you want?
A bourbon and coke, a Cuban cigar and a mail order bride.
some maple syrup, cito gaston’s moustache comb, robbie alomar’s used bed sheets and a game used jeremy accardo las vegas 51’s cap
I’ll flip out if they trade Snider
Snider 22 y/o- 14hr/298 AB
Upton 23 y/o – 17hr/496 AB
Upton has the higher ceiling, and is one step ahead career wise. But the Jays would be selling low on Snider if they included him in any sort of haul of players. I salivate thinking that these 2 could potentially be in the same lineup for the next while though. but i don’t think you can move Snider for him
Snider isn’t going anywhere except maybe to First Base. Justin Upton is a stud and would be a great addition to any team. He regressed last year and a change of scenery is needed. Jays have plenty to offer and there is definitely a deal to be made especially if Jays are prepared to give up Drabek as one of the pieces.
He also noted a Phillies’ offer based around Brown and Cosart wouldn’t be nearly enough, so nix any (extremely small) chance of them being involved.
sure keith…why don’t we send a fountain of youth, the holy grail and a magic lamp to arizona as well…
Everyone seems to forget that Elsbury is due for some significant arbitration raises in the next few seasons as well, isn’t Arizona trying to cut payroll?
It’s hard to digest it, but I would do Jacoby and Bard (plus a prospect). Just sign soriano afterwards I guess. There are a lot of good relievers on the market right now.
I would do that too, although as notsure said, it would likely have to be two+ prospects. I love bard, and Jacoby has lots of potential still, but Upton is still an improvement on Jacoby, and cheaper too, and while Bard is good, relievers are relatively easy to replace. The only player I really hope wouldn’t move would be Buchholz; I may be overvaluing him, but it would really sting to see him leave. I could stomach a Jacoby/Bard/Doubront/another guy kind of thing. Maybe even Jacoby/Bard/Lowrie, if the extra major-league ready talent will entice Towers. With scutaro and Iglesias coming up, Lowrie should be replaceable.
Maybe Jacoby, Bard, Doubront, Rizzo. Lowrie doesn’t make sense when they have Drew.
Good point.
Although I guess its possible he still moves in some sort of trade involving Upton, if a trade is made; Red Sox were apparently trying to get other teams involved in their plan.
I’d be fine with trading Ells, I’d have a little hesitation on Bard, noly because our bullpen stunk last year, and trading our best reliever would be tough. but still, Upton is a fantastic player and is only 23, so I could probably live with it if Bard went. But absolutely not a chance if Clay Buchholz was brought up in conversations, I would hate to see him traded.
for the orioles can you imagine the young outfield of markakis, jones, and upton? foundation for years to come with wieters and matusz/arrieta/britton…if only they could spend the money angelos has in his back pocket on the team…sigh
And how are you getting Upton without giving up some of Matusz/Arrieta/Britton/Wieters?
I love how you just inject Upton into an O’s lineup and still think that a bunch of those prospects will still be there if they got him. Not to mention the O’s aren’t in the race for Upton. LOL
adam jones really sucked last season, so did wieters. don’t get so excited.
Snider wouldn’t be so readily used as hypothetical trade bait if he didn’t suffer the misfortune of spending the last two years under Cito’s management…
This.
…might be the right time to trade him, first his back problems followed by his wrist…and have you noticed how much this guy has been eating…
meats don’t clash
He needs fuel for them bombs. Moonrakers don’t run on nothing.
Are you kidding? Go look at Snider over the last 2 years. If anything he’s much much leaner.
These 5 player packages are what we should be putting together for adrian gonzales not upton, that way we keep travis who is younger and has more power.
a gonz can walk at the end of the year, Upton is locked up for 5… so at this point Upton has much more value then Gonzalez, even though Gonzalez is better, he’s just a rental.
a gonz can walk at the end of the year, Upton is locked up for 5… so at this point Upton has much more value then Gonzalez, even though Gonzalez is better, he’s just a rental.
Let me ask you guys if this is fair for both teams. bryce harper for justin upton. should the Nats give up more if this were to even have a leg??
dbacks want to fill holes, whats the point of trading a potential star for a current star? Makes no sense for either team..
just wanted to see how much of potential you guys would give Justin Upon if there was a straight up trade on potentials only~~
straight up is hard to match up because of his contract, most of the guys his age and skill aren’t locked up to 50 million dollar contracts..
cant trade bryce till next spring was just drafted
Marcum, Stewart, Mills and someone else decent?
Probably not enough, but not sure I’d want much more leaving.
I would trade Marcum, D’Arnaud, Stewart, and Rzep for Upton…maybe if it isn’t enough throw in Emaus and/or another B- C prospect
Thoughts?
replace marcum with cecil and d’arnaud with that aaron cibia dude and it is more palatable,
For Toronto or Arizona?
i think both: d’arnaud still a couple years away – aaron cibia can tandem with montero and help his miguels knees and cecil is more controllable then marcum. plus marcum gives up more long bombs so it would not be helpful in zona.
Good point on Arencibia but personally I would rather keep Cecil over Marcum because he’s under control longer. Either way as long as Morrow, Snider, and Drabek don’t go anywhere I’m fine with any deal to get upton.
Not close to enough.
Fair enough. I’m probably another A prospect away?
Lets see how this plays out. Upton is certainly elite. You have to pay for that. Not sure I’d want to pay the asking price however. No fault in that.
Upton is actually a guy I’d be willing to trade Snider++ for… and I’d imagine that’s what they would ask for.
Perhaps something like Snider + Stewart + Alvarez/Jenkins + Jiminez for J Upton… but I’m not sure how much value he has, it’s a ton but I’d to see Dbacks fans opinion on this.
trading Snider + for Upton doesn’t make the Jays a 90+ win team..
mark reynolds would be coming to jays as well
i dont like the talk of upton for snider. certainly not with other valuable pieces involved. i understand that upton is a talented 5 tool player. but i think in a full season of work snider can hit 25HR’s 80RBI’s and steal 20 bases easy, and thats pretty much what upton has done in his best season to date. upton may have some edge defensively… i’m not sure tho, and snider is certainly no slouch in the outfield. at about 10mill per season less than upton, i take snider any day. I think snider has more power potential too.
Umm Upton is 23 years old and Snider is 22. If Snider can get better, why can’t Upton?
of course he can. but the deal is kind of pointless: 2 players projected to have similar levels of performance that are practically the same age. when you add any more value than that, it really doesnt make sense for the jays especially considering uptons salary. and speaking of the salary, maybe the dbacks are a little less enamoured with it after he took a small step back this year, perhaps that is part of the reason they are trying to trade him. if he is such a rare talent then they may not acquire or draft another player like him for years. if a 23 year old, 5 tool potential superstar doesnt fit into your future plans, then who does??i’m thinking that everyone else is putting a little more value in him than the dbacks are. or at least, thats what the dbacks are hoping for
says it all myself included:
i’m thinking that everyone else is putting a little more value in him than the dbacks are. or at least, thats what the dbacks are hoping for
They could have similar level of performance but Upton has shown he is already a star in this league and has potential to become a superstar while Snider is still trying to establish himself as an everyday player. I think both have elite potential but Upton has already put a good season and a decent one even when he regressed and is much closer to becoming an elite player while Snider is further away. He certainly can… but it’s not a guarantee but with Upton, you are guaranteed a great all-around player.
I am however curious as to why DBacks would even want to trade Upton since he is just 23 years old and on a team friendly contract, a 5-tooler who even in a regressed year had a pretty good year for a 23 year old. Dbacks are re-building and Upton could be a franchise player… so why would you trade that?
you are right about snider, but i dunno… i felt like was going to explode last year, and then an injury kind of took that away. i look for a BIG season for him this year.
it beats me why they want to deal him. a player like that is so rare if indeed he is as valuable as many of the ppl here seem to think. he is certainly a good player, but i dont classify him elite mainly because he doesnt have the production of a hamilton or a cano for example. he does play good defense i hear, but christ – hes 23 and covers ground well – he better play good D. the real question is how much you think he can improve offensively. Is he a 30-35HR hitter?? will he drive in 100 consistently?? i dont know, and apparently the dbacks dont either
realistically the ONLY reason snider hasn’t had the major league sucess Upton has had, is because of poor management of him, not lack of ability. I mean he hit 3 less homers then upton, in 200 less at bats.. If Snider got in 550 AB’s this year, and didn’t hit lead off, not one Jay fan would mention him in a trade rumour for anyone.
last time, we won’t trade snider for upton. that is just retarded as our team would be the same talent wise.
I was hoping the Yankees would land Upton but I don’t see it happening.
I’m wondering about the unwillingness to move a team’s top pitching prospect for this guy. Like Braves fans and Teheran. This is for the real deal, more “future aces” flame out then actually reach that. If not half the minors would have guys with future #1 stuff. The distinction between potential and chances of reaching that potential gets really skewed sometimes. There isn’t one unproven minor league pitcher I wouldn’t trade for Upton and I’m not even as high on him as others.
Some Sox fans today we’re saying they wouldnt move Kelly for Upton… how do you feel about that
I would.
I don’t think any Sox fans were saying they wouldn’t trade Kelly for Upton. I think people would trade him straight up in a heartbeat. They were saying they wouldn’t add Kelly into a deal that already has Ellsbury, Bard, and possibly others.
I would trade Kelly. I don’t see him as a ace though. More of a #2-3 guy if everything works out.
A bird in hand is worth two in the bush.
cecil would go before drabek
You act like Upton is a sure thing. He had a bad year in 2010 and you never know…he could flame out like his brother.
Bad year and yet he still posted an OPS of almost .800 with a WAR of 3.5 as a 22 year old. Oh and he was hurt. But okay John.
I don’t pay attention to dumb stats like WAR that rate Jamey Carroll higher than Ryan Howard.
There’s less of a chance of Upton flaming out then 99% pitcher in the minors. The only question with Upton is whether he can increase his contact rate. If he does that you have a a superstar. For the most part, with minor league pitchers they have to improve on most of their pitches, improve command, and some have to clean up their mechanics to reach their full potential. When it comes to % of success and % of failure I think Upton has a better chance of success and a lower chance of failure.
yes that is true; the issue comes to which minor starter are you talking about? drabek is off limits in my mind. jays been going after him for a good year and half. if you mean stewart then yes i would throw him in. cecil though has showed he can play at this level and succeed which would appeal more then a starter prospect. plus we need to make room for greinke. jokes…
I’m just saying minor league pitchers in general, for all teams. Guys like Miller, Teheran, Kelly, Wheeler, Banuelos, ect. Every team has several “Future #1 guys” but notice how few legit #1 guys are in the majors right now.
If I’m the Dbacks I ask for Brett Cecil, JP Arencibia, Zach Stewart, Jake Marisnick, Henderson Alvarez. Not the sexiest names in the Jays system but their system is deeper than ever. Asking for Drabek ++ would lower the return of the rest of the prospects.
Dbacks get Cecil (#2/3 starter in NL) whos controllable for 4+ years, Stewart (potential #3 starter or closer), Arencibia (power hitting C), and two high upside prospects (Alvarez, Marisnick)
3 of those 4 prospects could make the top 100.
As a Jays fan.. I would do this trade. Although I would hate to give up Cecil AND Stewart. One or the other would be nice considering it would mess up the rotation. I don’t have faith in Zep or Litsch in the #5 spot.
My offer would be:
Drabek, Lind, Alvarez, Perez, Marisnick
If I’m the Dbacks i’d accept that, but you’d rather give up perez over arencibia?
id rather give up d’arnaud
I would do that if it was Thames instead of Marisnick and Jiminez instead of Perez.
I think that’s too much talent being traded. Drabek has potential to be a #1 starter, Lind should bounce back, Alvarez has bottom end starter potential, Perez could be a solid starting catcher and he’s played very well offensively and defensively so far in A ball and is only 19. Marisnick has all the tools to become a future starting 5-tooler CF. Both Perez and Marisnick are few years away from reaching the bigs but I see them as guys that have great potential.
Drabek, Lind, Alvarez, Thames, Jiminez for Upton.
3 potential #3 starters, power catcher, high risk/upside CFder?
bit too much from TOR, but if it could be done, go for it
my suggestion as a Jays fan
Cecil + Lind + Rzepczynski + Stewart + Mastorinni (probably misspelled) + Cash
Cecil and Rzep could be worth a lot more in a weaker division but don’t project to be top of the rotation guys in the AL East (even if Cecil was an AL East killer last season)
Lind has value for a team that may be willing to play him in left field, but may not have a place on the newly defensive minded Jays that can plug his spot with an aging DH (ie: Manny)…I don’t want to move Snider because despite my doubts about him there appears to be more upside than trade value in him at this point
Stewart would be the one highly ranked prospect that we’d have to be willing to give up – I hate to give him up, especially since I’ve never seen him pitch so don’t know just how good he could be, but so many people have said that they’re worried about his delivery making him a reliever, that the RISK of that would allow me to move him before Drabek (I wouldn’t trade JP because our other prospects at catcher won’t be ready for 3 years and it doesn’t look like Arizona needs a catcher anyways…plus I really like how quiet he is at the plate, reminds me of Aaron Hill)
Mastorinni is almost ready, looks like he’d fit on an NL team, and the Jays don’t appear to be too high on him anyways since they brought in Davis
Cash – would have to compensate for the financial risk that they Diamondbacks would be taking with Lind ($3 million to offset the fact that in case he turns into a platoon player, a small RISK but a risk, he might be too expensive at the end of his current contract)…plus it generally looks like Arizona is trying to cut costs a little bit
oh my god. thank god you arent the gm ….. wow talk about OVERPAY.
For Justin Upton? No it isn’t. But keep thinking the Jays will get him without giving up something/
WAY to much. WAY WAY WAY too much, cecil lind, stewart is already enough my god lol u guys have a hard on for j upton…. ps i dont want him if it costs that much talk about RIP OFF.
Lind is 27 years old, had a career year (even though Justin Upton posted more WAR in Lind’s best year) and has no position. Rzep and Mastro are filler. Cecil is obviously the get in the package. It’s not a rip off considering Justin Upton has top 10 trade value in baseball but you can keep over-reacting if you like. Post your trade proposal that you think will land him instead of poo-pooing EVERY suggestion.
linds career year was also uptons career year, and offensively the numbers werent even close. upton is being paid 10-14mill for a future performance that he has so far only achieved once. lind is being paid 5mill which is more than reasonable even if he regresses back to a 20HR 60RBI guy
Except Lind did it when he was 26.. Upton when he was 22. Let me know when Lind posts 3 years of .800 OPS rather than just one. Oh and like I said, Upton is one of the best defensive RF’s in the game whereas Lind has NO POSITION.
you are working under the assumption that the diamond backs would see any value in Lind. At this point he has no position and I would guess, is pretty untradeable after the year he just had..I honestly think they would prefer Thames, cheaper, younger and can fill a position .
this no position stuff is ridiculous, if you can hit they will find a place for you, and lind will hit. as for untradable, the only guy on the jays that applies to is wells. there would be a very active market if the jays put lind on the block because his contract is not an albatross. if upton is that talented, then they should never get rid of him as they may never acquire a player like that again. i think the dbacks are just hoping some GM will have a complete brainfart and price upton way above the market. Towers pretty much stated exactly that. sorry, but i’m not sold on the guy enough to do that.
Okay, what position does Lind play? Because the Jays obviously don’t want him at 1B or LF.
if manny ramirez and carlos lee can get by in LF, then lind certainly can. by the way he has over 200 GP’s in left. and he could probably play 1B as well as most with some work. obviously hes never gonna be a plus defender, but to say he could never play in the field because he has no position just doesnt make any sense at all.
listen I like Lind, I’m a huge fan of his.. but I just don’t see the diamond backs asking for him in a trade for Upton, not to mention that if you did include him you are selling him at his lowest value.
that is tru, i guess my original point was that i’d be hesitant to give up more than one good young player on our roster and a good prospect… somehow from there i ended up having to defend lind as having value.
if the jays can acquire upton for something reasonable then i’m all for it. but the jays are in a nice spot right now and project to improve steadily in any case, so i dont see a reason to toss a bomb into our minor league system/young major league talent for the sake of one player, unless i was completely sold on him.
that is tru, i guess my original point was that i’d be hesitant to give up more than one good young player on our roster and a good prospect… somehow from there i ended up having to defend lind as having value.
if the jays can acquire upton for something reasonable then i’m all for it. but the jays are in a nice spot right now and project to improve steadily in any case, so i dont see a reason to toss a bomb into our minor league system/young major league talent for the sake of one player, unless i was completely sold on him.
this no position stuff is ridiculous, if you can hit they will find a place for you, and lind will hit. as for untradable, the only guy on the jays that applies to is wells. there would be a very active market if the jays put lind on the block because his contract is not an albatross. if upton is that talented, then they should never get rid of him as they may never acquire a player like that again. i think the dbacks are just hoping some GM will have a complete brainfart and price upton way above the market. Towers pretty much stated exactly that. sorry, but i’m not sold on the guy enough to do that.
Except Lind did it when he was 26.. Upton when he was 22. Let me know when Lind posts 3 years of .800 OPS rather than just one. Oh and like I said, Upton is one of the best defensive RF’s in the game whereas Lind has NO POSITION.
linds career year was also uptons career year, and offensively the numbers werent even close. upton is being paid 10-14mill for a future performance that he has so far only achieved once. lind is being paid 5mill which is more than reasonable even if he regresses back to a 20HR 60RBI guy
Its because every suggestion is POO POO! lol becuase simply im against getting upton if it costs a stupid amount which most ppl seem to be offering
lind and henderson alvarez is the max i’d offer in terms of good talent. you can add a couple B level guys if you like. lind underperformed in 2010 but is signed to a contract less than half of what upton will make with several option years. from his stats, alvarez looked like an absolute stud early on this year, and then fell back a bit. he is young and still has excellent upside. i am not going to cry myself to sleep if we dont get justin uptoni think the only way AA parts with drabek, snider, or stewart is from his cold, dead hands. drabek is AA’s prized acquisition to date and will get a chance to prove himself before he is dealt. snider for upton is redundant, and the jays lose out there in terms of dollars. and at nearly 25, with an arm still not built up enough to handle starting for a full year, stewart is still a good prospect but i get the feeling he will make his mark with the jays or nowhere, unless someone wants to stick him back in the pen to fast track him.
“lind and henderson alvarez is the max i’d offer in terms of good talent”
That wouldn’t even get you Mark Reynolds let alone Justin Upton.
It might get you an autograph by Mark Reynolds..
way too much for upton…by the way I have some $33 dollar seats for sale…$200 for each takes them
JJ Hardy and Nick Blackburn for Justin Upton.
Does the Florida GM run the D-Backs now?
While you’re being generous, you should throw Nick Punto in there.
DBacks love having another team’s garbage.
so compare ells, bard, doubront, rizzo/kelly, lowrie
vs.
snider, drabek, stewart, and one or two more
its going to take a HUGE return for arizona to move upton. im not sure any proposal here would get it done, but i do think if the sox had ells and bard headlining they could make something work. but still id rather see AGON just sign here as a free agent and hold onto the prospects, its not like the sox cant compete until AGON is a free man.
…This has nothing to do with AGON?
I don’t see Upton going to the Blue Jays. There’s no way AA gives up all that in a time of rebuilding for one piece.
Don’t discount the idea that AA is just driving up the price for Boston and New York on this one either. I love this guys approach so far… he is really in the mix right out of the gate.
The Blue Jays aren’t rebuilding. They will competing as early as next year. We just went after guys like Uggla and Greinke. How does that any sign of a team in rebuidling mode? And don’t be surprised if the Jays have Manny and Upton by the end of the month. Could you be any more blind?
I can’t see the Red Sox parting with Bard in pretty much ANY trade. He’s our future closer, end of story. Same with Iglesias, he’s our future SS. Any other prospects are on the table though as far as I’m concerned. Buccholz and Lester are, of course, unavailable. Would D-Backs be interested in Dice-K+cash/Ellsbury/Doubront? What about replacing one of those pitchers with Papelbon+cash? Other than that, If I’m Theo my abolsute highest offer is Kelly/Ellsbury/Doubront.
? Relievers are easier to come by than you think man. Boston will likely realize that and capitalize on Bards huge trade value, IF they’re to get anything done. Agreed about Iglesias though, I like him a lot.
I wouldn’t say that relievers who throw 100mph and make it look EASY are easy to come by..would you? Sox need to improve their bullpen and trading Bard would do the opposite, regardless of any FA RPs we pick up.
Well, no, Bard is a special talent, that’s true. But high-velocity relievers -are- becoming a bit more prevalent; broxton, feliz, thornton, ogando, are just a few names off the top of my head who are close or equal to bard in velocity. And the bullpen truly is one of the easiest parts to upgrade, so if you have to lose a big piece from somewhere it might as well be there. See, my thinking is just that if we somehow pull off a deal, it’ll require a buchholz or a bard. I think it would be a huge blow if we lost buchholz, and while bard will sting as well, the bullpen can still become very strong in 2011 with a couple savvy moves.
Basically, Justin Upton is going to cost a fortune if he’s traded. Ellsbury is basically a given in this trade, and I can handle that because Upton is definitely an upgrade there. And Towers seems set on getting as much major-league ready talent as possible, which is also why I think it’d be hard to sell him on a package highlighting Kelly, who’s still a couple years removed from the big leagues. Ellsbury/Bard/Doubront would be a nice offer, and I would be pretty pumped if we pulled that off. Although, likely, it would take an offer more like Ellsbury/Bard/Doubront/Rizzo, at least, to get a deal done.
Bottom line, I don’t really see Boston making this move unless they can get some other teams involved, so they can spread their offer around a bit, have more chips available to them.
? Relievers are easier to come by than you think man. Boston will likely realize that and capitalize on Bards huge trade value, IF they’re to get anything done. Agreed about Iglesias though, I like him a lot.
“Dice-K+cash/Ellsbury/Doubront?”
I mean that would give Towers a good laugh?
I can’t see the Red Sox parting with Bard in pretty much ANY trade. He’s our future closer, end of story. Same with Iglesias, he’s our future SS. Any other prospects are on the table though as far as I’m concerned. Buccholz and Lester are, of course, unavailable. Would D-Backs be interested in Dice-K+cash/Ellsbury/Doubront? What about replacing one of those pitchers with Papelbon+cash? Other than that, If I’m Theo my abolsute highest offer is Kelly/Ellsbury/Doubront.
thinking Nolasco, Morrison and Nunez gives Arizona a Setup/closer, a #2-3 pitcher and a legit top 20 type prospect (young player proven for big leagues) back for justin
When was Morrison EVER a top 20 prospect?
YES BLUE JAYS! GET ON THAT AA YOU GOT THIS BUDDY!
YES BLUE JAYS! GET ON THAT AA YOU GOT THIS BUDDY!
The Reds need to get in on the Upton sweepstakes. D-backs are looking for a 1st baseman? How about Yonder Alonso, Juan Fransisco, and Mike Leake.
Leake pitched at ASU just down the street.
Bah Gawd, with the amount of comments this article has you’ll think a trade actually happened.
This is ridiculous.
People must just be pumped to see the Hot Stove really get rumbling. I know I am.
Bah Gawd, with the amount of comments this article has you’ll think a trade actually happened.
This is ridiculous.
I believe the mariners have an actual shot of landing Justin Upton. They need the offense and have the pieces that the dbacks need. What they want is major league ready people, a corner infielder, and bullpen because there bullpen was horrendous. I think the mariners could package a deal of lopez/figgins, aarsdma, league, saunders, and one of our pitching prospects. I think they may be able to get a deal done.
lol at that package. Jim Callis at Baseball America said: Pineda, Ackley and Franklin. But okay!
Lol at that package.
like anyone will take chone figgins
aarsdma is just okay and league is just okay too
no where near enough to get upton
Towers is a drama queen. He has a great young player with a team friendly contract. He’s asking for the wold and wasting everyones time, including MLBTRs. I love your coverage guys… You must be sick of this already.
he is a drama queen because he is dangling a guy who really isn’t available and hopes some team will pony up a monster haul for him? thats not being a drama queen, thats being a smart GM.
Yeah let’s go back to talking about Geoff Blum and Clint Barmes.
Wanna know why Bard has no value to anyone but the Sox? Daniel Bard was a starter.. he sucked. he was moved to relief, now hes good. Every team in baseball has a guy like that, you RS fans need to stop kidding yourselves. If Upton lost a lot of value this year, how the hell would Ellsbury and Bard be a over payment? Ellsbury whos got some service time, been moved from CF because he wasnt good enough.. Same thing with Bard, he was moved from starting, because he was garbage and now hes a good pen pitcher.. Kenley Jansen and Sergio Santos are the reasons why Bard will never be a centerpiece for Upton. Relief pitching is volatile and can be found anywhere..
kinda like hitters who can’t hit.. but they can throw a baseball 98 mph.
“He used to be a starter and wasn’t good enough so now it doesn’t matter how good of a reliever he is.” What? For real? Ok, tell that to Mariano Rivera…