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AL East Notes: Ortiz, Porcello, Orioles

By Zachary Links | May 17, 2015 at 10:05am CDT

After a slow start to the season, many have wondered if it’s about time for Red Sox slugger David Ortiz to retire.  Boston hitting coach Chili Davis doesn’t think that’s necessarily the case, however, as Scott Lauber of the Boston Herald writes.  “Throughout my career, there were too many people that were ready to write me off way before I got to 39. And every time they did, I came back with a strong year, and they were like, ‘Well, this may be his last year.’ Nobody tells you when you’re done. You know when you’re done,” Davis said. “If you’re that kind of player — and David is that kind of player — he’ll know when he’s done.” Here’s more from the AL East..

  • Red Sox offseason acquisition Rick Porcello is looking more like a complete pitcher and an ace with every start, Jason Mastrodonato of the Boston Herald writes. So far, Porcello is looking like the kind of pitcher Boston was hoping for when they inked him to a four-year, $82.5MM extension in April.  Through eight starts this season, the 26-year-old has pitched to a 4.26 ERA with 7.8 K/9 and 2.3 BB/9.
  • The Orioles’ farm system used to be pretty barren when it came to quality pitching choices.  Now, there are multiple quality starting pitchers waiting in the wings for 2016, Roch Kubatko of MASNsports.com writes.  Kubatko identifies Mike Wright, Tyler Wilson, and Zach Davies as rotation possibilities and adds that Steve Johnson could be a bullpen option down the road, provided that the O’s are alright with him being out of options.
  • Catcher Stephen Vogt never got the chance to break out with the Rays but he’s doing it now as he’s behind the plate for the A’s, Marc Topkin of the Tampa Bay Times writes.  Vogt was designated for assignment by Tampa Bay two years ago and traded to Oakland for cash considerations.
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145 Comments

  1. Ace McCloud®

    10 years ago

    I’m glad Vogt is off to the start he is. Good guy and it raises his trade value.

    Reply
  2. Brixton G.

    10 years ago

    Porcello has had 5 quality starts in 8 tries, has an ERA of 4.26, has a below average ERA+, and has let up more than a hit per IP. I’m not sure what the definition of an ace is, but that isn’t it.

    Reply
    • Bruinsfan94

      10 years ago

      I wouldnt call him an ace. But I would say he is a nice number 2. I’ve watched all his games and he has kept us in the game and been pretty good overall. Ace is subjective but I think there are only a few aces in MLB and he is not one of them.

      Reply
    • DMC23

      10 years ago

      His 3rd start of the season was really bad and makes his overall perfomance look worse than it has been. “Ace” is a strong word, but he has been pretty good.

      Reply
    • redsoxu571

      10 years ago

      Perhaps you should actually read all the words in the post?
      It was talking about how his recent starts having him LOOKING more LIKE an ace. It didn’t call him a literal baseball ace, and it clearly wasn’t referring to his first few starts, when he struggled.

      In his last four starts, Porcello has given up a grand total of 6 ERs and has a 2.10 ERA. If he were to keep that up (unlikely), that would indeed be an ace. So, yes, he HAS looked like an ace recently. Everything the post said is valid.

      Reply
      • TheRealRyan 2

        10 years ago

        He has a 3.76 xFIP over those 4 starts which is in line with his career 3.87 xFIP. I would strongly advise against reading too much into some good luck results over a 4 game stint, especially when the underlying statistics have him looking like the same pitcher.

        Reply
  3. stymeedone

    10 years ago

    An Ace with a 4.26 ERA would change the definition of the word “Ace.” Porcello’s performance so far is within range of his career numbers.

    Reply
    • bobbleheadguru

      10 years ago

      The reason that Porcello is NOT an ace is that when he does not have his best stuff, he cannot keep his team in the game.

      He has 2-3 great games in a row, followed by a flop. That is his MO for SIX YEARS with the Tigers. Boston writers who are not used to this, amplify his positive and downplay his negative.

      Reply
      • Brixton G.

        10 years ago

        Hes only had 1 flop so far in 8 starts, but in 4 of those 8 starts, hes was mediocre at best.

        Reply
    • ieatcarrots

      10 years ago

      Yeah, kind of confused to see a mid-4 ERA after 35 games be considered an ace. Now, if they want to break out his starts and tell me he’s had one 6-run inning that throws off his numbers, fine– but I don’t see that cited here.

      Reply
      • Bruinsfan94

        10 years ago

        Yea he shouldn’t be called an ace but he has pitched very well. The game that inflates his ERA was against Balitmore in mid April. Eight runs in like 5 innings.

        Reply
  4. Draven Moss

    10 years ago

    I wouldn’t call Porcello’s performance so far as “ace-caliber”, but he has been pretty good. His home-run rate so far this year has been incredibly high so when that stabilizes to his career norms, I think his performance as a whole will be more like a #3/#2 starter.

    Reply
    • Bruinsfan94

      10 years ago

      I agree. I see Porcello as a very nice number 2 starter.

      Reply
      • Draven Moss

        10 years ago

        I think that is his ceiling. Anyhow, all the Red Sox need is one true ace and I think their rotation will be very good. I wanna see E-Rod really soon, and see what he is capable of.

        Reply
        • Bruinsfan94

          10 years ago

          Agreed. I would like them to have him up and then make a move for a rental pitcher.

          Reply
    • baines03

      10 years ago

      His HR rate has been rather high, but isn’t that what happens when you move from Comerica Park to Fenway Park?

      Reply
      • Draven Moss

        10 years ago

        Well, he is a groundball pitcher, so no, it shouldn’t jump as high as it has so far this year. It will be higher, yes, but not super high.

        Reply
  5. Arch Stanton

    10 years ago

    Ortiz is a me-me guy. He will retire after 500 hr’s.

    Reply
    • Bruinsfan94

      10 years ago

      Ortiz is not a “me-me” guy. He has won three world series and has always been loved by his teammates. Very good for the younger players.

      Reply
      • Arch Stanton

        10 years ago

        Tell that to Tito

        Reply
        • Bruinsfan94

          10 years ago

          Tito leaving had nothing to do with him. I dont even remember him being covered much with that mess. It was mostly Lackey, Beckett, Buch.

          Reply
          • Arch Stanton

            10 years ago

            You missed the Ortiz interrupting Tito postgame where he went nuts with the f-bomb over a scorekeeper not giving him a hit.

            Reply
            • Arch Stanton

              10 years ago

              Youtube David Ortiz is Upset over the loss of an RBI

              Reply
            • Bruinsfan94

              10 years ago

              Tito didnt seem too mad haha. It was three years ago and had NOTHING to do with Tito leaving. He is beloved in Boston, Has won three world series, and is a good mentor to guys like Betts and Borgarts. Not just that but star players like Hanley have took less money to play with him.

              Reply
              • Arch Stanton

                10 years ago

                He let Tito hang out to dry that season

                Reply
                • Bruinsfan94

                  10 years ago

                  I dont know what your talking about? Tito was fired by ownership for the whole seven wins in Sept. Nothing to do with Ortiz.

                  Reply
    • Draven Moss

      10 years ago

      I think he will retire after 500 HRs but if the team is really good, I can see him going for another ring as well.

      Reply
      • Brixton G.

        10 years ago

        The Sox aren’t gonna let him play until he wants to stop. At some point Hanley is gonna have to DH. Hanley has been replacement level so far because of his defense. (0.8 oWAR, -0.9 dWAR, 0.0 WAR)

        Reply
        • Bruinsfan94

          10 years ago

          As long as Ortiz doesnt have a massive drop off, I think he has a pretty long leash. I think he probably retires after next year.

          Reply
          • Brixton G.

            10 years ago

            Hes already having a massive drop off. Hes on pace to be a below average player and hes hitting .236.

            Reply
            • VAR

              10 years ago

              Really? He’s a had a whole season where he was that bad and come back to hit .270 and slug .529 the very next season. Let’s wait for the weather to warm up before we pronounce him dead.

              Reply
            • Bruinsfan94

              10 years ago

              This guy has been playing at an elite level for 13 years and just last year hit 35 homeruns in 140 games. Its early May and your calling it a career? A little early dont you think?

              Reply
              • Brixton G.

                10 years ago

                I’m not calling it a career, I’m saying that the Red Sox aren’t gonna let him keep clogging up their DH spot if they have better options, which they already do.

                Reply
                • Bruinsfan94

                  10 years ago

                  He is such a good hitter and the face of the team. He is also signed for a couple more years with options that are fairly cheap. Hanley will move to first for a year probably and then to DH.

                  Reply
                • Draven Moss

                  10 years ago

                  Not necessarily. He has a history of struggling in April and May. Tell me this at the end of the year when he will probably end up being the 2nd most productive hitter on the team.

                  Reply
                  • Brixton G.

                    10 years ago

                    He has a career OPS of .868 in April and .883 in May.

                    Reply
                    • Draven Moss

                      10 years ago

                      Yes, but that is still his two of his most unproductive months of the year. He has had starts worse than this before, and has rebounded fine.

                      Reply
        • Arch Stanton

          10 years ago

          Pablo is the next DH, Hanley could do first

          Reply
          • Bruinsfan94

            10 years ago

            Pablo is younger and a better defender then Hanley.

            Reply
            • Arch Stanton

              10 years ago

              Pablo is 5foot nothing…at first? Nope

              Reply
              • Brixton G.

                10 years ago

                Sandoval is only 2 inches shorter than Napoli.
                Plus they can always play Swihart at first next year with Vazquez catching, Hanley DHing and Sandoval at 3rd.

                Reply
                • VAR

                  10 years ago

                  Swihart projects as an excellent offensive catcher, which by any stretch would make him a below average first baseman. Putting him at first would be a mistake.

                  Reply
                  • Brixton G.

                    10 years ago

                    then do you trade Vazquez? His value is wasted as a backup

                    Reply
                    • Bruinsfan94

                      10 years ago

                      Probably once he proves hes healthy.

                      Reply
                    • VAR

                      10 years ago

                      Let’s actually wait until he comes back from TJS before we worry about that. He may not even be back until halfway through next season if Wieters is any indication. They may trade one of them, but having a defensive superstar as a backup wouldn’t exactly hurt the team.

                      Reply
                • Bruinsfan94

                  10 years ago

                  Swiharts value comes from him being the catcher.

                  Reply
          • Brixton G.

            10 years ago

            other way around.

            Reply
          • VAR

            10 years ago

            No way. Pablo is solid defensively at third. It’s Hanley.

            Reply
        • Draven Moss

          10 years ago

          I think it is very possible Hanley is pushed to first after this year. Nap probably isn’t gonna be resigned, especially if he continues to struggle. As for Ortiz, I think they’ll continue to let him play until he calls it quits. The man isn’t gonna continue playing after his 500 homers if his overall numbers are gonna drop greatly. He wants to at least get a shot at the HoF.

          Reply
    • frogbogg

      10 years ago

      Me me guys write bonuses in their contract when they achieve milestones.

      Reply
    • Voice of Reason

      10 years ago

      For being a me-me guy, he’s had a solid-solid MLB career!

      Reply
  6. UltimateYankeeFan

    10 years ago

    Porcello has pitched better his last 3 outings but lets keep in mind those outings have been against the Rays, A’s and Mariners not exactly offensive powerhouses.

    Reply
    • VAR

      10 years ago

      What about the one before where he went 7 innings and gave up one run against Toronto? Doesn’t count?

      Reply
      • Brixton G.

        10 years ago

        It counts, but doesn’t validate the claim of him becoming an ace.

        Reply
        • VAR

          10 years ago

          No one said he was. You can’t invalidate games against bad teams and ignore the good ones.

          Reply
          • Brixton G.

            10 years ago

            I’m pretty sure thats exactly what the article says.

            “Red Sox offseason acquisition Rick Porcello is looking more like a complete pitcher and an ace with every start”

            Reply
          • UltimateYankeeFan

            10 years ago

            Actually the article does refer to him as an ace with every start.

            Reply
            • VAR

              10 years ago

              That’s not what I was arguing. I don’t think he’s an ace, but you can’t dismiss what he’s done just because it’s against bad teams, nor can you ignore the prior start because it doesn’t fit your narrative. He’s pitched well in his last four outings, one of which was against a very good offensive team.

              Reply
              • UltimateYankeeFan

                10 years ago

                I wasn’t dismissing it. Just like I wasn’t dismissing his 4 starts before that one. I just didn’t mention them. It seems to me one good start against a good offensive team (Jays) and 3 good starts against below average offensive teams does NOT qualify a pitcher as a “complete pitchers and ace with every start”. But that’s just my opinion.

                Reply
                • TheRealRyan 2

                  10 years ago

                  But even in his most recent 4 starts where he has better results, he sill has a 3.76 xFIP. He hasn’t really been a better pitcher, just had some better luck. Porcello continues to be what he has always been which is a good #3 SP. As a Rays fan, I just continue to hope he is Boston’s best SP for years to come.

                  Reply
                • VAR

                  10 years ago

                  You’re misquoting. He said “a more complete pitcher with every start.” And the only mention of the word ace, was the phrase “ace-in-the-making.” Which isn’t saying he’s an ace now. You didn’t mention it because it didn’t fit your narrative of Porcello only beating bad offensive teams. He’s beat a good offensive team and has had 4 descent starts in a row.

                  Reply
                  • TheRealRyan 2

                    10 years ago

                    His last 4 starts he has better results, but still has a 3.76 xFIP. That 3.76 xFIP is in line with the 3.89 xFIP for this season and 3.87 xFIP he has for his career. Porcello is what he is which is a good #3.

                    Reply
                    • VAR

                      10 years ago

                      You’re assuming that a pitcher can’t improve or learn to do things a bit differently. I’m not saying he is an ace or he will be an ace, but to say a 26 year old is done learning or improving is selling him short.

                      Reply
                      • TheRealRyan 2

                        10 years ago

                        Could a 26 year old pitcher change? Sure. However, Porcello hasn’t shown much to think that he has changed yet. Since 2011 his xFIP- has been 99, 94, 81, 97 and 97. His FIP- has been 101, 95, 89, 97 and 110. That to me looks like a pitcher who hasn’t really improved. He may have changed his style, but he hasn’t shown significant improvement.

                        Reply
                  • UltimateYankeeFan

                    10 years ago

                    Victoria, please forgive me but you are the one misquoting the article. The writer NEVER says “”ace-in-the-making.”

                    Reply
                    • VAR

                      10 years ago

                      Did you actually read the article?

                      Reply
                    • VAR

                      10 years ago

                      “They swung the bats with mid-90s power and were led by 26-year-old ace-in-the-making and 23-year-old rookie Blake Swihart as they spoiled Hernandez’s perfect 6-0 record.”

                      Reply
              • levendis

                10 years ago

                He didn’t pitch well against Oakland, and if you think pitching well in his last 3/4 starts is evidence that he is turning a corner than thats foolish (not saying you are, just if that is your thinking). Fact is its very concerning that his GB% keeps falling, giving up many more flyballs which are resulting in an increase in the number of HRs he has allowed. Factor into the fact he never was, and never will be a strikeout pitcher, its safe to say he is not nor will be an ace. A #2 starter is his ceiling, and he hasn’t reach that yet.

                Reply
                • VAR

                  10 years ago

                  I don’t recall arguing that he was an ace. Nor did the article even say he was an ace. I only said that he pitched well against Toronto which is a good offensive team.

                  Reply
                  • levendis

                    10 years ago

                    there are plenty of reporters in Boston saying he will or at least could be an ace, which is too high of a ceiling for him.

                    Reply
  7. Sleeper

    10 years ago

    I’m all for looking at the bright side of things in baseball, but even I gave my screen the stink eye when seeing Porcello and ace in the same sentence.He doesn’t have the results this season to dictate he’s developing into an ace, he’s been moderately effective on a team with a struggling rotation,therefore he’s going to look a little better than usual. And no, I’m not bashing him, he’s a solid supplemental arm,he just shouldn’t be put into the ace conversation,expecting that of him is a reach.

    Reply
  8. Arch Stanton

    10 years ago

    The Red Sox love the durable arms like Porcello. Joe Kelly should be tried out as closer for next year.

    Reply
  9. Arch Stanton

    10 years ago

    If anyone has ace stuff it’s
    Eduardo Rodriguez
    LHP, Pawtucket

    Reply
    • VAR

      10 years ago

      Don’t get too excited. Scouts see him as a number 3+. Not an ace.

      Reply
      • Scott Thorn

        10 years ago

        Not true. Many scouts see his stuff and demeanor on the mound as stuff that dictates a ceiling of a top of the rotation starter. It’s a ceiling, of course, but still.

        Reply
        • VAR

          10 years ago

          Find me one. I’ve read a ton about him and never seen anyone say number one starter. They could be wrong sure, but I’ve never seen a number one ceiling mentioned for him anywhere. Sickles rates him as a B+ borderline B. Sox prospects gives him a “ceiling of a quality number 3 starter.” His increase in velocity is certainly intriguing, but not enough for scouts to project him as a number one.

          Reply
          • stl_cards16

            10 years ago

            You’re absolutely right. But besides the true elite guys, Sickels pegs every good SP prospect a #3 starter. It’s kind of a weird thing I’ve noticed with him. I think it’s more of him hedging his bet.

            Reply
            • VAR

              10 years ago

              I think a lot of scouts do that to be honest. Every single starter seems to have a ceiling of number three. I’ll be thrilled if he’s better, it’s just no one seems to think that at the moment.

              Reply
      • MB923

        10 years ago

        Isn’t he a top 50-75 prospect? I can’t picture a projected mid rotation pitcher ranking that high.

        Reply
        • VAR

          10 years ago

          It depends on the list you look at. And Owens is ranked that high on a lot of lists and no one will say number one about him either. 59, 89, 65 on BA, MLB, BP. He throws hard, but has average control, a potential plus changeup and potential average slider. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to see him pitch in the majors as soon as possible. His scouting reports may have suffered from his poor performance at the beginning of last year. Then again Joe Kelly lights up the radar gun too.

          Reply
  10. Niekro

    10 years ago

    I know Porcello is still very young and all but after 1k Innings in the majors is a drastic change something that occurs that often for someone with so much MLB experience. Maybe a breakout year or two but to expect him to develop into an ace seems like a stretch.

    Reply
    • Draven Moss

      10 years ago

      Yeah, it probably is a bit of a stretch however, Porcello is a bit odd in the fact that he has had little minor league time. He has had to develop himself while pitching in the majors which most guys don’t have to do. So in a sense you could argue a lot of the 1k innings have been spent as he was developing.

      Reply
  11. iku247

    10 years ago

    Porcello = not even close to an ace
    Porcello = not even close to a #1
    Porcello = not even close to a #2

    Reply
    • Blah blah blah

      10 years ago

      close to a #2.

      Reply
    • Bruinsfan94

      10 years ago

      Yea I would say that he has pitched like a decent number 2.

      Reply
      • Brixton G.

        10 years ago

        Not really.. An ERA over 4 in this day and age isn’t good.

        Reply
        • Draven Moss

          10 years ago

          Terrible defence in Detroit.

          Reply
          • Niekro

            10 years ago

            His career FIP is 4.04

            Reply
            • Draven Moss

              10 years ago

              It has continued to improve though.

              Reply
          • Brixton G.

            10 years ago

            So whats his excuse in Boston? He has 2 gold glovers plus Pablo Sandoval behind him

            Reply
            • Draven Moss

              10 years ago

              It has been 8 starts.

              Reply
            • TB1223

              10 years ago

              He got off to as slow start. 2.10 ERA in Porcello’s last 4 starts. 2 weeks into May is poor time to judge a players season.

              Reply
          • MB923

            10 years ago

            The same D that was behind Max Scherzer?

            Reply
            • Draven Moss

              10 years ago

              Max was a strikeout pitcher while in Detroit. He also didn’t get very many ground balls while he was there. The defence in the infield really didn’t affect him too much. Of course, the defence that Detroit had last year in the infield was improved, hence why Porcello’s ERA got better. His FIP stayed in line with the year before.

              Reply
              • MB923

                10 years ago

                True, but it’s not like Porcellos BABIP was high last year. It was .298. League average was .295.

                Reply
                • Draven Moss

                  10 years ago

                  The results he got last year were in line with what he is capable of and reflected his FIP. The years before that the defence hurt him and caused his ERA to be inflated. His HR/9 have really hurt him so far this year, but other than that the numbers match up. I also think his GB% will go up once he starts pitching lower in the zone and stops aiming for K’s (his K/9 will drop too).

                  Reply
            • TB1223

              10 years ago

              Porcello is GB pitcher, Scherzer isFB pitcher. Defense not nearly as important.

              Reply
        • Bruinsfan94

          10 years ago

          He’s still young and is looking better.

          Reply
        • TB1223

          10 years ago

          Basing a pitcher on 9 starts isn’t good either. That means, by your method, These pitchers (all higher ERAs than Porcello) aren’t #2 either: Doug Fister, Gio Gonzalez, Jered Weaver, Anibal Sanchez, Jeff Samardzija, Chris Sale, Matt Latos etc.

          Reply
          • Brixton G.

            10 years ago

            They have a good track record, he doesn’t. His career ERA is over 4 and he only has 1 season with an ERA under 4.

            Reply
    • Sleeper

      10 years ago

      I wouldn’t say not even close to a #2, that’s a little harsh because when he’s on,he has the looks of a potential future #2, although he’s not there yet by any means. He’s a passable #3 as things sit.

      Reply
    • TB1223

      10 years ago

      Hes definitely a number two based on 2014 numbers.

      Reply
  12. Blah blah blah

    10 years ago

    “Red Sox offseason acquisition Rick Porcello is looking more like a complete pitcher and an ace with every start. Through eight starts this season, the 26-year-old has pitched to a 4.26 ERA with 7.8 K/9 and 2.3 BB/9.”

    hmmmm…..

    Reply
    • willi

      10 years ago

      The Guy a number three on most staffs on his good days, and a career bullpen long man on most.

      Reply
      • TB1223

        10 years ago

        Can you give me 16 teams with two better starters, based on 2014 numbers?

        Reply
  13. Lefty_Orioles_Fan

    10 years ago

    Orioles are no different than other years really.
    Plus, all of their young pitchers are unproven.
    However pitching might not be the biggest problem this year.
    This year our offense is uneven to say the least and quite frankly, I think there’s tension between those in the dugout and those in the Front Office.

    Reply
  14. MiddleIn

    10 years ago

    A capable 3 at best.

    Reply
    • TB1223

      10 years ago

      Based on what? Last season At age 25, Porcello posted 38th best WAR among Starting Pitchers. That number puts him squarely in the middle of #2s. But, somehow you’ve not only dismissed that, but that at age 26, he’ll never improve on it (“at best”).

      Reply
  15. Mr Pike

    10 years ago

    Read the article. It doesn’t say he is pitching like an ace. It says he is looking like an ace-in-the-making.

    Reply
  16. Ray Mulligan

    10 years ago

    The Boston media isn’t doing these guys any favors with the constant hyping after every good performance. JBJ was supposed to make people forget Ellsbury, now Betts is supposed to do that. Bogaerts was a superstar in the making. Now Porcello is turning into an ace? He is just a much more expensive version of Shane Greene.

    Reply
    • TB1223

      10 years ago

      Porcello’s ERA+ last season was 115 and pitched 204 innings. Greenes last year was 102+ in 78 innings. Greene dreams of the day he’s Porcello.

      Reply
  17. Jimmy 15

    10 years ago

    I bet the Phillies fans feel stupid now after saying all spring how the Sox need an ace. They forgot Porcella was already in the fold. They should have taken JBJ for Hamels when they had the chance. Sure he has a .192 career average but he is a defensive wizard. Rumor has it that the Sox were also offering Craig In the deal. Oops Phillies. They have the audacity to ask for Bogaerts, Betts, and Swihart. To be fair, Bogaerts isn’t great in the field, but he does have a career average of .244. I know their SS has a superior glove, but what’s he hitting? And Betts, really? He has a career BA of .263. Those players don’t grow on trees. Obviously Swihart was ridiculous. He’s already showing he has a major league bat. How good would his .167 BA look in their line-up? So typical of Philly for overrating their talent. What ha Hamels ever done In his MLB career?

    Reply
    • Bruinsfan94

      10 years ago

      Look out everyone. We have an expert over here.

      Reply
      • Jimmy 15

        10 years ago

        T-Hanks brother. At least someone appreciates a post with actual data. God bless.

        Reply
        • Bruinsfan94

          10 years ago

          No data in there. Just judgeing guys with super small simple sizes. Betts has looked really good this year. BA is only one part of a big puzzle. I dont think its crazy that a team didnt want to move three guys who have all been top 20 prospects in the last year and all play prime postions.Its not like Hamels is young ( 31). Its not like Hamels is cheap ( Could be owed 125 million). Its not like the Phillies are in this great postion (Meddling farm system, strong division, very few strong trade chips). The Red Sox have plenty of top prospects ( top 100, at least one top 20-30) that they would trade.

          Reply
          • Jimmy 15

            10 years ago

            My bad. Shouldn’t have used career MLB numbers. Babe Ruth and HS would have been more valid.

            Reply
            • Bruinsfan94

              10 years ago

              Great argument. I guess after Stwharts 10 games we should release him. All three of those guys have very good chances to have long careers. Get out of here with using BA to judge a player (As if 263 was hitting 097) and judging players based on A couple games.

              Reply
              • Jimmy 15

                10 years ago

                The sample size for Craig, Bogaerts and JBJ is not all that small, but I’ll play along. So you think the sample is too small to judge these players, but yet you can determine they are going to have long careers and that the Phillies are being ridiculous in asking for them. Got it.

                Do you know who has a large sample size? Cole Hamels. But Sox fans dismiss his accomplishments. They focus on his record vs AL East as opposed to his entire career including playoffs/WS. So I guess a large sample size of high performance is not as valuable as Boston players who have small sample size of poor performance?

                Reply
                • TB1223

                  10 years ago

                  Are you seriously judging Betts on BA alone? You obviously don’t follow what’s been doing besides batting average. Betts has 3.4 WAR in 377 PAs. That projects to a little over 6 WAR in a full season. That would put him in top 15 for position players in 2014.

                  Reply
                  • Jimmy 15

                    10 years ago

                    I am not allowed to judge Betts. Too small sample size. Unless you think he’s Willie Mays, then sample size is plenty big.

                    Reply
                    • TB1223

                      10 years ago

                      What?

                      Reply
                      • Jimmy 15

                        10 years ago

                        What?

                        Reply
                • Bruinsfan94

                  10 years ago

                  Well now you are putting words in my mouth. Hey you know what else is important? Age. Xander Bogaerts is 22. Mookie Betts is 22. Swihart is 23. Cole Hamels? 31. We have no clue what players were offered. Players like Owens and Margot were probably gonna be packaged with Craig just to offset money a little. Cole Hamels is owed 120 million. Pitchers tend not to do as well in thier 30’s. There have been huge drop offs (Lincy, Willis, Webb, Lee) and tons of tommy Johns. What do you think a fair trade would be?

                  Reply
                  • Jimmy 15

                    10 years ago

                    You’re right. Age is important. 22 y/olds don’t play as well as 31 year olds. Cole Hamels is not owed $120 million.

                    Reply
                    • Bruinsfan94

                      10 years ago

                      Yep that is 100% the point. They are just getting started. While Betts (Whos already a very good player) bogerts, and blake are hiting their primes, Hamels will be playing golf. Yes he is with his reachable vesting option.

                      Reply
                      • Jimmy 15

                        10 years ago

                        I’m sorry. I forgot that the low % of top prospects that make an impact in the majors does not apply to Boston. Of course all 3 Red Sox will have great careers. I should have looked at their track record. What was I thinking. And of course Hamels’s arm is going to fall off.

                        Reply
                        • Bruinsfan94

                          10 years ago

                          Well it’s somewhat likely that he won’t continue to pitch at a high level for that long. You are very biased against Boston clearly.

                          Reply
                          • Jimmy 15

                            10 years ago

                            My point is not that Swihart, Betts, and Bogaerts aren’t going to be good players. I actually think they all have a good chance to be good and possibly great. I would love to have them on my team. My objection is how Sox fans make it sound like the Phillies are ridiculous for even asking for them. I have seen Sox fans name them and about 3-4 other players as “untouchable” They all have potential, but the odds are against them. It is much more riskier for the
                            Phillies than the Sox. History supports that overwhelmingly. I don’t have any problem with Sox fans who don’t want to trade their young players for Hamels. But to say that the Sox don’t want or need Hamels to me is absurd. And to suggest that the Phillies are being ridiculous for what they are asking is even more absurd.

                            Reply
                            • Bruinsfan94

                              10 years ago

                              Every team has fans who throw out absurd trade ideas but experts have pretty much agreed that Swihart, Betts, and Bogaerts shouldn’t and wont be traded. It would just open up a new hole. They are not distant prospects but but present players. The Red Sox probably dont want Hamels as much as you would think. Pitchers are VERY risky and hes owed a ton of money. Would I like him on the Sox? Yes! Would I give up top propsects for him? Yes! I dont know where you are looking to find 3-4 other prospects who cant be traded. The only guy in the whole farm system who is probably untouchable is Moncada. The Red Sox have (depending on the list) 5-8 guys on the top 100 prospect list. The fact they wont trade 1-2 is not that shocking. You keep ignoring all the top prospects (Like Owens, Margot, Johnson) and good prospects ( Coyle, Ceccnini, Marrero) who could be moved. Devers and Erod probably wont be dealt but they are not off limits. There is nothing wrong with the Philies trying to get the best deal they can get but the Red Sox and most smart teams do not like paying top $ for over 30 pitchers. Its far more likely they will go get a rental such as Cueto, Kazmir, Leake at a far lessor cost.

                              Reply
                              • Jimmy 15

                                10 years ago

                                Trust me, I’ve seen people on this site say they consider Owens, Margot, E-Rod, among others as untouchable. I also see many people try to diminish Hamels’ career. Specifically his record vs. AL East. Talk about cherry picking. I have watched Hamels for years. He’s not perfect but he is good. Very good.. I have loved watching him pitch. . If Sox fans don’t want to give up Betts or Swihart, I understand. If the Sox fans don’t want him at all, I think they are making a mistakeI. Do I think a deal could be made without Betts or Swihart? Yes, I do. But JBJ and Craig won’t cut it. Surely you would agree with me there.

                                I was not trolling on my posts, just trying to make my point by satiring the absurdity that I’ve seen on this site. Sorry if I offended. Good luck to you and your Sox.

                                Reply
                                • Bruinsfan94

                                  10 years ago

                                  I would 100% agree that Craig and JBJ only play in a trade would be as a final piece or in the case of Craig to offset money. I think a trade would need both Owens and Margot plus a couple other decent names.

                                  Reply
                                  • Jimmy 15

                                    10 years ago

                                    I would agree to that.

                                    Reply
  18. kafo

    10 years ago

    He’s and ace #3 starter haha

    Reply
  19. Twinsfan79

    10 years ago

    I like how 4.26 ERA with 7.8 K/9 and 2.3 BB/9 translates into “ace” these days. Just like the definition of a quality start. Smh. Guess I hold guys to a higher standard before I’ll call them elite.

    Reply
    • MattHollidaysForearms

      10 years ago

      I think you should read the article, and not just the tag line.

      Reply
  20. willi

    10 years ago

    Truth will set you Free !

    Reply

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